Women and the Mitzvah of Kiddush and Havdalah on Shabbat/Yom Tov

exempt from positive Commandments which are time bound this is a general rule so it only applies to positive mitzvot not to negative mitzvot uh and a woman is exempt from ties because it's time bound You Don't Wear Ties at night you don't have to wear ties at night they're exempt fromin because we don't wearin at night and we also don't wear fill in on Shabbat or yam a woman is exempt from chaur strangely enough because it's even though the custom is they do it a woman is exempt from Suka a woman is exempt from Lula right these are famous cases of Zaman G that women are exempt from however side by side with the famous cases of exemption are exceptions to the rule right the famous rule that every rule has an exception to which that rule there are also exceptions but okay um and one of the major exceptions I'm not going to go over all the exceptions is Kish women are obligated in KES both Friday night and shabas morning and whether it's Shabbat or whether it's yov even though Kish is obviously a Time bound commandment but the talmud says this is thear that this is an exception because of the Jos of Shamar and zakar remember the Ten Commandments the aser sbras are repeated twice in the Torah uh once or stated twice in the Torah they're repeated once uh one's in Paras and the other is in and 90% is the same but there are some differences and one of the major differences is the fourth Commandment inro is z remember the chabas and in the fourth Commandment is sham observe the chabas andal understand remembering the chabas is K sanctifying it uh observing the shabas is refraining from now which did hasem say so were said that somehow God said them the same time so although text they're not josed one is in yro and one is you can't simply talk about a juxtaposition there is no textual J J deposition but there is a so to speak verbal or oral Jos because God said both of those words at the same time therefore what is our drha our drha is Whoever has the negatives of chabas will also have the positives of chabas and since women are certainly not allowed to do forbidden chabas work because that's a negative Commandments they are also included in the positivity aspect of Kes so this is very very important KES is absolutely a to the rule of Z and that does mean that if a woman is by herself uh she absolutely must make Kish there's no heter for her woman not to make kiddish and even although I'm going to talk about this later about some controversy but there is no principle there's no impediment for a woman making kiddish for another man uh because if men and women are equal in their obligation a woman could be Moy a man just as a man could be moosi woman I'll discuss later that there's some subtleties about this but the bottom line actually is a woman could be Moi a man theoretically a woman could be Moi a man that's not her husband that she's not related to a woman could be Moi uh theoretically now don't don't quote me on this theoretically a woman after SCH and chabas the morning can be honored to make Kish for the whole congregation provided she doesn't sing it so we don't have a CO Isa problem yeah drink from wine is it what a woman yes well a woman needs to drink from the wine the same way a man would have to drink from the wine there there huh for both meals for both meals uh I'll discuss that also but men and women are exactly equal when it comes to when it comes to kidish is what drinking drinking the wine okay all my favorite is the Chen but okay you can you can like the wine okay eat his own right okay uh yeah I'm sorry said together why are they printed separate why are they two separate well that's a good question remember in it's not a new decalogue Moshe is reviewing what the Jewish people said so it's always going to be an interesting question if every everything that Moshe says in V was said by God in in y so why does the Torah why does the Torah split it up um again the maam actually explain that since Moshe is addressing the Jewish people right before their entering the land of Israel so he emphasizes those aspects that are going to be most relevant in the midbar Mal was not a big issue because even during the week they didn't have to do Mala you know everything was the month once they come to erel becomes a very important activity so it's a question of emphasizing things at at different times so let's go with the simple principle that because women are Kish they could be mo man and if they don't do it or whatever their con or whatever it is but but they're not concrete men and women are exactly equal when it comes to kidish again I'll discuss a little later there may be some subtleties even on that but the is very clear now let's now go I want to go over this again women are inish because of are women in so this is a among rishonim among medieval commentaries there are some commentaries that say that the same way Kish is a way of honoring chabas you honor chabas when chabas comes in havdalah is also a way of honoring chabas be Ito and therefore if we compare Z and Sham to create an obligation of Kes then who had the same thing would be true that we would create an obligation of havalah so according to view number one we'll call that view number one a woman's obligation in KES is the I'm sorry woman's obligation in havalah is the same as her obligation in kidish and that's the same as a man's okay that's view number one view number two is that the heckes the jux position the verbal juxtaposition that the talud makes it only mentions KES and therefore with havdala we apply the rule rather than the exception and the rule is going to be Zama women are exempt so because of this women are exempt now so we have Aus if you're asking me are women obligated in some say yes some say no so what do you do Hally when you have such Aus so for Asim the answer is very very simple because let me explain what the answer is for ashkenazim the answer is this remember Asim take the position that even if a woman is exempt from a mitv say like Schauer and lul if she wants to do it she can do it and even make a so anyone most people I guess are asaz the asazi women here if you take aul you make the so IFI women have the option of making then if we are uncertain if they're in or not the obvious answer is they should make it anyway because if they're they have to do it and if they're notot they're permitted to do it it's not a br in vain so therefore if there's a doubt if they're obligated or not the short answer is they can either hear it from somebody or or do it themselves and again if a woman does havea herself uh which she can do and sometimes times must do if there's no one else around they drink the wine right so anything you've heard about about a woman not drinking the wine of abdalah is only if someone is making it for her if she's making it herself she 100% drinks the wine of I'll get to the candle I know you mentioned that last week can say again can she do oh okay so here we have a a difficult problem here since there is a sha a sha if she is obligated in havdalah so she might not be obligated and therefore her havdalah is might be optional might be optional she cannot make abdulla for a man because a man is obligated the woman may not be obligated that is the difference between kidish and havdalah women are definitively obligated in kidish and because they're definitively obligated and Kish she is exactly the same as a man she can can make Kish for a man but havah is Aus is she obligated or not obligated so even though mitad herself she should do it because B is either an obligatory habala or an optional havdala she would not be able to be mo man that's a very good point the man would have to make the havdala himself and if he can't talk uh well problems he'll find somebody he has to find a to make up now this solution is only a solution for ashm because you'd have a problem within becausein and and say I mean I trace this we we trace this back to R in the which in turn goes as far back as the rambam so it really originates from the rambam the rambam takes the position which at first glance is a logical position that even though women can certainly perform mitzvot that are but they can't make a on it because how can they make the statement that God Sanctified us with his Commandments Vu if they're not commanded and therefore according to uh the rambam Ando if a woman were to make a br on lul it would be a brala now you will find many spartic girls who do make bras but as raj said they have been contaminated by ashaz they have been contaminated by kabad and ashaz bakov and uh he always was very very emphatic that they must return to thei U Tradition now the I do want to say that the Moran kilot actually followed the Rama in this and they do make a and they were very offended when Raj accused them of Simply you know adopting kabad Customs because kabad has a lot of schools in Morocco Etc they said that we have been doing this for a thousand years so if you're a Moroccan in this you follow ashaz well I shouldn't say follow they they don't they they don't describe it as following ashaz they say this is our direct M our direct M was we did make Bros and we did not follow the rambam in this so my problem is this the problem is what is aarty woman supposed to do if if if she's if she's not able to hear abdulla from a man if there's a m if she's obligated or not obligated so the problem is this if she's obligated she must but if she's not obligated she can't see like ashkanam you don't have a problem so Raj was asked this question and Raja actually said very very simple he said that women are obligated in meaning unlike ashim that treat this as a question simply say women are therefore she could make abdah and she could be mo a man at that point okay so soaj again I mean his decision is not acceptable by everybody either but he basically says both ashaz and don't have a problem with woman making havdalah but the methodology is a little different for both for it is Aus if women are obligated or not but either way they can do it because they either must or they can therefore they should for that wouldn't be a choice because if it would be a then they wouldn't be able to do it because maybe it's a but says we hold it's not I mean we hold it's very very clear women are H how did get around the ideas of the which idea of the rambam they can't make a br because they can't make the BR no no that's true no no that's true normally but far to maintain havdalah is included in the Kish exception yeah yeah yeah you're right you're right when a woman is exempt the rambam says they can't make a but will maintain Hava is included in the kiddish exception now uh yeah I'm sorry I didn't understand the basis for the argument that habala was not allowed you said could be allowed like KES but I didn't understand the no the re the reason is this the reason is kidish is time bound and havdala is time bound so in terms of general rule women would be exempt the townwood says there's an exception to the general rule for Kish it does not explicitly State there's an exception for the general rule for abdalah so the question is whether you compare them that's the M yeah um what about lightting candles for on Friday I Friday night well well well well uh let me let let me just say no no no but but the the answer the answer once again is that n shabas is also an exception meaning be sure you understand this the rambam statement that a woman is not allowed to make AA on a Time bound Commandments only refers to time bound Commandments that women are Exempted from anything that a woman must do such as kidish and such as shabas candles of course the rambam would say they can make a br i' heard that if they in the same room there's only one so that's okay so that that that no no so the question is uh lighting candles if if if you're lighting extra candles so that has nothing to do with the rambam that's a general rule are you allow to make a br on lighting shabas candles if there are other candles in the room that are giving light that's not because manma that's a gen that's a general question about chabas and there we pasin if it gives if you light it in a place where it's giving some extra illumination but that's not connected with swum that that's a separate issue of what is called can you make a on additional light if there's already light okay people some people are to put all the lights off before they light before they light yeah that that's that's correct that's correct um yeah yeah but again as I said that's not an ashkanazi spy thing turn them back on huh how do you turn them back on for the well uh yeah there's going to be an issue if if lighting the candles is a woman accepting shabas uh she can't do it her husband would have to do it or the kids would do it turn the lights back on yeah yeah yeah yeah or the woman could make a condition that she's not M until she turns the light back on because that's part of the ceremony of theas okay uh yeah I'm sorry you said that a woman can't make for man but let's say that a man becomes in a position where he can't make ABD nobody else to do it what happens then I I understand it's a very difficult situation but you'll have to get a man to come over and make abdalah okay uh now if it's a bar mitzvah boy that's a rule you can't bend yeah I think I think you can't bend it I mean it's it's a problem I mean I'll give you an example of chaer I mean let's assume a person is bedridden or or housebound and uh the only person who goow chauffer for him is his wife uh it's not going to work un unfortunately it's not going to work because a woman cannot be Moi a man in the blowing of the chauffeur because it's and a a woman that MIT that a woman is putter from she I cannot be most whether it's ashkanazi Ori now let's go over the components of abdah because I I want to take the analysis a little further uh we make a and wine and havdala that's parallel to KES right kdes has braa and wine and a blessing but we make two extra blessings in the middle of abdalah that we don't do in Kish We Make A over B right spices and we make a braa over a candle over a flame over a fire now where where does that come from like why why is that there so the blessing the over B which by the way if you smell spices even during the week you have to make a meaning that is actually a the same way when you eat something you make AA when you smell aromatic spices you make AA is not unique to havala but kazal said that we should incorporate Bim in the havdala ceremony the reason is because on chabas we have an extra soul in the shama we lose that n when chabas leaves we are weak again even psychologically we feel spiritually that we're we should feel that way actually if you don't feel that way maybe shabas you didn't experience shabas enough but we feel weakened we feel debilitated we feel a little bit lost so we have smelling salts to revive us the say so that's now why do you make the so this is fascinating fascinating fascinating there are two separate reasons for the and this is going to have some very far-reaching consequences reason number one is it is connected to havdalah proper and that is that fire is one of the mechanisms by which we do much productive labor it kind of represents our control over nature and since on chabas we weren't allowed to exercise that Authority so we say now we're now entering the week where I can use fire again by extension so according to that b is part of the havalah ceremony that's interpretation number one interpretation number two is it has nothing to do with shabas it has nothing to do with hav it is simply connected to Saturday night that is had a that Mo shabas Hashem introduced Adam to the gift of fire fire is a gift again fire is very can be very very destructive but uh you know the world as we know it could not exist without fire and therefore this is a br of gratitude to Hashem for the gift of fire now this has some interesting repercussions what is the Hala generally for men and women these are not men women distinctions if I didn't make havdala Saturday night I just didn't make it so the Hal is I make havdalah Sunday Sunday night Monday Monday night Tuesday because the concept is Sunday Monday Tuesday are still connected to the old chabas Wednesday Thursday Friday are connected to the new shabas so you can make havdalah until sunset on Tuesday till on Tuesday with the bra all the braas not not only can you you must you must but the question is and that includes even Bim which anyway you could you you can do Bim any day you want but it's interesting that you only make Saturday night if you missed havdalah Saturday night you do not make B Mo reason because we actually Pas that b is not part of it is a gratitude to Hashem for the gift that he gave us MO shabas once it's not Mo shabas can't do it anymore fact this even explains Tish if if you know when Tish let's say falls out on chabas and you're going to fast Saturday night or the ninth of a is Sunday so it begins Saturday night so we don't make abdalah obviously because we're not allowed to drink although I do remember I was once at somebody's house years and years ago and the person was not so knowledgeable but very well-intentioned sincere person and Tish was going to begin so he had this dilemma I was he he acted so quickly I I couldn't even stop him like he said he made he drank the wine then okay now we're going to begin the fast of the nin that that is I mean that's an understandable mistake maybe but that that's totally incorrect we obviously do not make havdalah until Sunday night but you may recall we do make on Tish above night B now why do I do that why why don't I just defer it with abdalah the answer is because B mes can only be recited Saturday night now so so repercussion number one of that it's a thankfulness for the gift of fire is it's only Saturday night no other time but repercussion number two is some opinions say that even if women are they may not beos in the bra over fire because if fire is not part of the ceremony it just becomes a it's a Time bound commandment of Saturday night it's not covered by the kidish or the havdala exception because it's not havdalah it's not Kish so some would say that women are exempt from but here's the question the Mish actually brings an opinion that a woman should not that when when a woman makesa she should not make the braa over the candle now the question is what's the logic there even if women are exempt from this Mitzvah but ashaz maintain she's allowed to make the bra so why shouldn't B at least be unallowable BR even if it's not a mandatory right what's the what's the problem so the Mish Mas is that even though there is a discussion whether a woman is in B there is no problem in her making B now for Sim there might be a problemm there might be a problem because again did say women are but if a is not part of abdalah you're back to and then they couldn't make it so it could be that the bra over might be a but ashaz women for sure will make the you're the first Rabbi who I heard said that women should include havah most of the rabbis I spoke to said if you're making it alone you don't uh that's very surprising it is very very surprising um okay uh you know I'm not tell you to depart from whatever you were given uh but this is my understanding yeah confus on yeah if it's Sunday yes so Sunday night no no no so so Saturday night it starts yes Saturday night you only say a nothing else no you mean no on Tish you say it if Tish is starting yeah yeah if Tish is starting Saturday nights we make and that's it say that every before he comes home from you say it on a light to be able to start doing stuff no was that one you're confusing two different things if you're talking about to say the words to do yeah that's fine but I'm talking about a with's name so we light night Saturday night we light a Hava candle it's kind of veryy because it's the only uh um actually reminds me a little bit I don't want to get into politics but um the uh president of Harvard you know Cline gay U going through a a difficult time right now we should stop for her I feel sorry for No but um but you know uh she's she's not she's not really a great friend of the Jewish people okay maybe maybe it's not so important whether she is or not but at some point uh she decided this year to go to kanuka lighting at Harvard and uh for some reason they gave her a blowtorch to light something so somebody said it really was from her perspective it was very unfortunate picture it's like she's having this blow torch against so I don't know if she was set up or or not but uh but that's thing but it is it is an interesting visual that the night of theb bikash we have a fire you know we we're lighting a fire uh which is connected with the destruction of the basas yeah women did not make at all they had to look for men all over the place to make well um minhag minhag but but there's no reason for that because again if you're ashkanazi then even if for woman is she could do it so there wouldn't be there wouldn't be any any problem and and as I say the the Min of not drinking the wine does not apply uh to when you're making Hab yourself yeah yeah I don't hear you yeah no so so the B well well it's interesting theoretically you are allowed to smell spices on Tish uh but the but the minog is that we we defer it to Sun Sunday night so the only thing we do is H H and the wine well actually um well why wine is an interesting issue in other words when you make Abdullah okay okay I don't want to go over the laws of Tish necessarily just since we hit upon it so when tiab is Saturday night Sunday right so Saturday night you make B Mor that's it after the fast Sunday night uh you make a full hav without without AE everything else you do Etc the question is do you drink wine do you make it unwine because let me explain the issue the issue is that during the nine days um we don't have uh meat or wine except on chabas and even for abdalah we use beer or or or whatever it is now the meat restrictions of the nine days the eating and drinking meat and wine of the nine days extend even to the 10th of till the middle of the day so that actually means when I'm making habah uh Sunday night it's already the 10th of but I'm not supposed to have wine until the next day so some will be M when they make havdala after that they'll do it on beer others say that uh because this is a Mitzvah abah so the of waiting until does not have to be observed so whatever you do you're okay but there are two different about that in fact some some some opinions actually maintain even during the nine days proper even the shabas before t one could have wine but even if you're M on that to be M after TSH is is being stricter many say stricter than you have to than you have to be if the if if you hold that the the age has to do with the gift of Hashem for shouldn't it be very obligatory for women also so well uh I mean the answer again the technical answer would be that it is a Time bound commandment meaning to say it's a Time bound situation uh and it's not covered by the kidish exception because it's not part of Kish and ABD now you're asking but maybe there be an independent logic just as we say because they benefited from The Exodus they have to eat matah and they were saved in the Kana story so why don't we say the same type of thing it's a very good question it's a very good question words kind of a that type let me think think about that okay so yeah yes are you still obliged to hear um a absolutely uh this is a very important point um there are two Havas in a regular Mo shabas there are two different Havas that we make uh for the people who D in Marv there's a havd paragraph in the amida and for the people who don't D in Marv they say and that is number one and that havdalah allows you to do work but it does not yet allow you to eat can't eat any food till you hear havdalah number two havdalah number two is the recitation of havdalah over wine or grape juice with bamum and the abdulla candle so even if a person did havdala number one uh they are obligated to either hear or say Hava number two in fact a whole interesting question um you know how can I Mo shabas right you're not allowed to do Mal till you at least say the word words right you can't do uh technically the M restriction remains in effect until Tuesday if if I didn't say I I could not do till Tuesday so the question is it's always nice to come up with a new of the of the month uh and that is am I allowed to call a non-religious cap driver Sunday Monday Tuesday of the week because well he can't eat yeah but he doesn't that's not my responsibility but if I call him to drive me somewhere uh he's doing without saying so the question becomes how am I allowed to ask him to drive me I'm I'm asking a Jew to do a m for me in a period where it's forbidden that's an interesting so all caps can only be taken uh Wednesday you know Thursday Friday and even Friday you got to be careful not to ask for it so late that he'll be driving back on chabas so Friday is going to be a short day the PO do permit it the PO do permit it they say um is not like a magic word it simply means um if a person has decided it's not Shabbat anymore so uh that's kind of to vary things or not have one solid L well you know your question is a very excellent question but it goes back to to the talet I mean you know every you know you open up the tal you open up the Mish so when does when do you meet the firstus you meet the first M uh literally the second line of the mishna saysin when do you start reading the shma of MV we already have so actually there's no although there's a says when the can eat their truma at night okay we have one which everybody agrees upon although that's also but at least in the mishna okay but then it says how long do you have to read it like when does it end three opinions already so you get hit with the like the second line of the mission already and every page of thear isus uh and people say well if is the will of Hashem andem telling us how to live our lives then how could it be that everything is uncertain everything is unclear so that means what uh 20% of the let's talk about Jews who keep M I'm not talking about Jews 20% of the people keeping mites are doing it wrong because there may be following a view that is incorrect and so that would mean a majority of Jews who want to keep the Torah are not keeping it so it's a very excellent question but but but the short answer is Hashem created a process where he gave the interpretation of his will to the and if the follow the precedents of the methodology then whatever they come up with Hashem accepts so if you have Aus between B and B or whatever it is we say hasem will accept both of them as legitimate even though one of them by definition has to be wrong but operationally and behaviorally Hashem legitimates now if you're asking the question who has the right to come up with these different opinions you know that is that is a good question uh the short answer is this though even today different opinions come up you have Aus but it has to be based on authoritative sources so a rabbi today could not argue with the tal but a rabbi today could argue with how to interpret something in the tal so the later generations are bound by the precedents but then there can be different interpretations of those precedents I mean I don't want to make it too secular but lail this is how any legal system works a legal system deals with questions based on the Precedence the authoritative precedence in which it's bound to those precedents but there still going to be interpretation Hashem gave a Torah in which there is supposed to be interpretation it's people make a mistake when they think that Hashem gave Moshe the answer to every question explicitly Hashem didn't tell Moshe as far as I know uh can you use a microwave for Milik and fesik he didn't tell Moshe what is the rule of surrogate motherhood he didn't tell Moshe about um you know collateral damage in in in fighting against Hamas or or whatever it is rather he gave mosha principles he gave Moshe principles and our job is to take those principles and apply them to new to new situations so it's a much more Dynam oh oh thank you thank you so much it's a much more Dynamic process than just you know going over just passing things down like like a relay like a relay race but I'll tell you an interesting story The Who was younger than Sal once wanted to visit to ask him some shus was considered to be the god when the was younger and was so the was sitting in brisk you know waiting for to finish and as soon as finished a guy came in off the street and simply said rebi how come there's so much M everything is he doesn't mean fighting he means arguments in everything's M so looked at him and thought for around a minute and said you're very wrong for every there are many many many areas of of agreement and consensus that are not articulated mlus is the visible tip of the iceberg of talmudic discussion that presupposes a tremendous amount of consensus so for example when the mishna says from when do you read the shma that presupposes there's a MIT kishma and you do it twice a day and then you have MIM about detail uh the mishna Suka has a if a Suka is more than 20 high is it koser but that presupposes there's such a thing as so actually said told the man yeah it's true that the mlus is the thing that's emphasized because that's the controversy but every mlus presupposes a tremendous amount of agreement I mean I'll tell you sometimes you know learning with balich chuba they sometimes are are disart because they come for the truth and they hear that everything seems to be Aus I always tell people if you're taking a and it's multiple choice yes no M put put M you'll always be right but that's why the teacher has to say explain your answer that that that's very important yeah tuas is over when we well well well well no no yeah yeah you're 100% no no you're 100% correct you're not being shabas it's obvious that chabas is over when it's over but M it's you're not allowed to do till you make a declaration of so it's words it's to do Mal till you declare that the Holiness of shabas is over because otherwise yeah yeah yeah yes that's correct but but I called that havdalah havdalah type one yeah yeah but you're right 100% I mean nobody's going to be executed by a son hedin because they did M Monday morning right right this is a good excuse if you don't feel like going to work you say well you I didn't make havdala I couldn't I couldn't come so I want to finish this with so so after of told the guy that there's much more agreement thanas so spoke to whatever business he had and then he's going back on the train to Roden and he's lost in thoughts he's with somebody and after an hour he says to the person that is amazing he really is right so the way they explain the story when the person asked R why is there so much R had to go through the whole sh in his mind to determine it it took ra five minutes it took the in one hour but they both went through went through the whole talet and he said is right is right they sometimes describe um two great gum when they argue in learning you know they never have to they almost never have to say anything it's just a bunch of references he says to says no R each one knows like what the other one is talking about without ever having to say it without ever having to check it they're just so familiar with all of these all of these makas but the issue of makus again is is is a good one and the dran explains that it's the nature of the Torah that hasm wanted there to be interpretation of human beings of to be able to apply the Torah uh to these situations of of of life okay so this is the issue of of Kish and abdalah that I wanted to talk about just to clarify why Bor is a little SU generous now let me mention one other interesting point about that is you may recall that uh the only time we do B we only do it shabas and we do it mopper we don't do it Mo y because on y you're allowed to use fire you can't light a fire but you use so we don't make a br on that but yam Kipper is like shabis you can't light fire or anything else but you may recall over the years that there's some like special requirement for the havdalah candle that you use on yum Kipper that it has to be a candle that was lit before yum Kipper or a a new candle that is lit from a pre-existing candle you cannot just strike a match and light the have dollar candle unlike a regular Mo shabas where I can strike a match and light the candle no no so no no so you have to say you have to say of course 100% correct otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to to light that's right you always have to say that uh now what if you have a yard side candle that's good that's fine that's fine that's fine uh the only thing is remember a have a candle is supposed to have several Wicks so the yide candle may only be uh you know for one yeah so but you can light you can light your H candle from the yide candle yeah yeah that's perfectly fine that's perfectly good now this is called this is given a name this is called Nas it had to be a fire that rested meaning it was there and it was not used for forbidden work so for yum Kipper Mo yum Kipper you have to have n for Mo shabas you don't need Nas why is there a difference because Mo shabas the main reason I make the braa is to thank God for the gifts of fire so whether it's a new fire or an old fire makes no difference I'm thanking God for the gift of fire I can light a new fire moam Kipper that's not the time that God gave us fire moamer all I'm saying is that until now I couldn't use this and now I can use this so it has to be something that you could have used and didn't use right that's what the is saying therefore therefore 100% therefore when yum Kipper is on chabas and mo say yipper is Mo shabas you do not need n shabas and you can use a regular have candle the of shabas is only when yamer does not fall out on chabas exactly right R that's kind of the explanation of of of of that yeah another interesting thing is of a man who right right right so that that's what I mentioned the last five minutes uh last week that uh if a man heard Kish and Sh he can certainly come home and say it for wife no question if a man heard in and had to be with then according to at least the man should not make ABD for his wife because maybe she's not so for him it's a she is permitted to do it based on the r but I cannot do it for her if she's not according to there'd be no problem with that because she's therefore he could be mo in abdah again just like he's Mo here with Kish so uh the problem you're raising is a problem but it's only a problem for ashim it is not a problem uh for SW yeah so you said the the woman could make but what about all the children um can a woman make up be Moi the children right yeah so that that's an interesting question um if they are above baras Mitzvah she cannot well well okay I'm sorry I scratch B Mitzvah if there are boys above Bar Mitzvah she cannot uh for the girls even if they're above BSM she could because they're no worse than she is no better than she is and and the like if the kids are below barasz there's also no problem with her doing it because it's only because of so can be with her doing it as well but yeah you're 100% correct if there's a boy that is Bar Mitzvah uh at least for ashkanam a woman should not make Abdullah uh for for that boy he should make his own he has to make his own that's ex or make for her and the children yeah uh yeah whatever what whatever she prefers she could make her own or he can make it for he could make it for for everybody uh boy that's that's that's Bar Mitzvah uh but for the girls there's no problem because whatever she is they are so uh the or lack of is going to be exactly is going to be exactly the same now again I'm I'm going around in circles a little bit cuz eventually I'm going I'm going to get to a central point which I'm not going to reach today but let me just mention another of Kes that's very very relevant and this is not a this is uh the rule of Kish can only be recited in the place where you're have your meal now we'll have to Define that term now let me go over the gamar where the gamarra discusses this the gamar discusses the minog of reciting Kish Friday night in the B knesset right the minog was to recite kid and is in many places in fact that's the ashkenazic but it goes back to talmudic times Kish was recited in sh Friday night so the gamar discusses the question let's assume I'm not married or let's assume my wife was in show do I have to make Kish at home again if I heard it in show am i y with the Kish of RAV the great Amor RAV says I'm y I heard KES I'm y Shu R's great colleague and we like Shu says you're not y because even though I heard Kish and but since I didn't eat anything a KES you're only KES where you eat so the gar then asks the very obvious question so if nobody is y with Kish and why are we making Kish and so the gor's answer is we make it for orim poor people who used to be fed and they would have their meals in the show so for them it's a valid Tish now based on this this is AAR there's a and which is also the rules that since B already in his time it was not customary for the poor to eat in the B knesset they would be invited to two homes therefore you shouldn't make Kish so the of the is that Kish was no longer recited in sha Friday night because if the only reason to recite it is to be Moi the or in the if there are no orim who are eating in the you shouldn't make the Kish and it's a this is R the Rama says however like ashaz never never let go of a Min it says once kazal established this custom even if the reason no longer applies it becomes a permanent custom of the and therefore the Rama says Kish is recited even though nobody is y so the question then becomes so you're not you got to make you're not but you make it so the question becomes how can you drink it in other words let's assume that I was asked right you're not allowed to eat before you hear Kish that's a general rule so how can the guy who makes Kish drink the wine if he's not yot because it's not a place of his sa then there's a Prohibition on him drinking the wine so there are a number of different ways that H gets around this particular problem solution number one is you give it to a cuton you give it to a child below Bar Mitzvah or a girl below Bas Mitzvah uh because they are allowed to eat before Kish they're considered to be weak or whatever it is they don't have that prohibition but then the question is how young let's assume you do it by giving it to the kid how young so some say the kid should be old enough to be trained in Mitzvah so they understand what kishes that way you're training them others say the other way around once he's old enough to be trained you shouldn't give him the wine because he needs to be trained not to eat before kidish so you have to give it to a kid who's below the age of training already you have a marlus do I give it like to a three-year-old or do I give it to a 10-year-old right some say if bdaa should be well 10 is a little old but you know it should be an older kid who is being trained in a Mitzvah others say it has to be a kid that you're not training in the Mitzvah because that way he's allowed to eat before Kish yeah could you deal with the issue of the minute of standing for y and sitting yeah yeah I think I may be out of town today uh out of time today but I I I will address it uh again uh technically I'll just say technically the paragraph of is not part of Kish proper it is an introduction to Kish KES begins with the BR and the wine and the bra of chabas uh vulu is an introduction and certainly if you didn't say Vu you would beish uh but some say you should stand for all ofu uh because you're giving testimony that Hashem created the Heaven and Earth and Witnesses stand up others say that you can sit for vulu but the very beginning the first letters of those four words are the so that should be now there are many many Customs some only stand for uh others will stand for vulu and sit for the rest of Kes and the reason they sit for the rest of Kes is that since KES has to be part of the meal the meal is established when you set yourself down so the L Custom and the custom is we stand for vulu and we sit for the BR of Kes among many and many other people as well they have a Min to honor Hashem that they will stand for KES so I remember in the N Isel Yesa we follow the normal Min we I mean normal Yesa is to stand for Hulu and sit and one time the rosesa came to uh honor us to eat with us and he that was his Minag but he didn't know what the Yeshiva Minag was and he didn't want to change from the Min of the Yeshiva so when we started standing he St so we didn't know what to do we were looking at what he was doing and he was looking at what we were doing up and down and up and down and up and down so it took a few minutes uh to sort it out but it's an amazing thing you think about this he's the rosesa he found under the Yesa and he didn't want to deviate from whatever minog we were doing like he wanted to respect like we were like the balaba him uh as it were not really and he was trying to respect our men again yeah Kish is made at the end of ding there's no food in the shoe the Kish is outside y on theide okay I'm going to talk about this next week there are there are problems that's all I can that's all I can tell you you know I I I I was uh we had a bris uh last chabas in AR shabas bris and I was honored to name the baby now you understand there's a problem because on chabas you got to make Kish in other words before you make bra pran you have to make Kish so uh the problem was all the food was uh in another room so I asked them that at least for me for nobody else uh bring in a piece of cake where I was so I could drink the wine and then have the take to make it a meal and for everyone else we actually announced that you know you're not yot with this Kish but we'll make Kish again when you go into the din but I'll talk more about it because K Mak is an important I'm sorry did you want you said something that's correct that that's correct so is they're part of the beauty of of our of our Tower okay you all have a good week and thank you for coming thank you so much