Why This Christian Couple Left Everything to Become Jewish

We're here with Kana and Khaliv from Haitian church to Judaism. Please tell us your story. >> My mom had ended up getting married to this guy. We started practicing a version of Christianity that we kept Shabbad and like Yamipur and Pisak and all these different things. It made sense to start doing these things cuz I could find the answers in the Tanakh, which [music] is where it started from. I ended up going to this Bible study at this church and I run into my wife and her mom. You know, her mom sees me and she starts talking to me. is letting me know how nice it is to see a young person of my complexion because in the environment that we were in, I was the only person who looked like me besides them. She wants to keep in touch with me. So, she has my wife take out her phone and we exchange numbers, me and my wife, not me and her mom. [music] >> At some point, we're talking. He's like, "Oh yeah, like I make music. I'm a rapper." And I was just like, "Oh, not [music] my type." [laughter] >> We grew on each other and the more we talked and the more we got to know each other, the more we liked each other. [music] When did the two of you start your conversion journey? What led to making that decision together? >> The more Tanakh we learned, the less Christian we became. The only people who believe what's written inside this book is Jews. We started finding out that Yosh isn't God. That's what got us in trouble. That created a spiral of events that ended up getting us kicked out of church. Before we start, I want to thank our sponsor, PZ Deals, because thanks to you, I have a really good list of summer items. And I know I'm going to be the cool place that people want to be. And I know it was cheaper, it was easier, and it's all my favorite things that I've always wanted for the summer. All with the click of a button from the Peasy Deals app. So download the Peasy Deals app because with Peasy Deals, you'll never pay full price again. Hi, [music] I'm Sapora Grodco and this is the Stories of Hope podcast. This is really, really exciting. We're here with Kana and Khaliv from Haitian church to musical Judaism. Khaliv, let's start with you. Please tell us your story. Start from the beginning. We'd love to hear it. >> All right. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate um you know, even getting the opportunity to talk to you again. You know, this has been a very exciting journey. [laughter] >> Yes, it has been. >> For sure. For sure. Okay. So, dope. Yeah. My parents are from Jacmail, Haiti. Well, my mom's from Jacmail, Haiti. And um my father is from Okai. And those are just like two big cities, two port cities in Haiti. And you know, so they they eventually migrated from Jacqu Melaninoai to Porter Prince and then to New York, Queens, where um they uh pursued, you know, education and and you know, just veteran for themselves. Um my my mother's actually from a really prominent family, which is amazing actually because my grandfather, he's called the tontomak. I don't exactly know what that translates to, but it's effectively like the secret service for the Haitian government. So like the president like there was these two presidents. I think it was like Papa Doc and Baby Doc was like huge deal. So he was very my mother ended up coming to America. Grandfather wanted and my grandmother wanted to have a better education. So that was really interesting. >> And then my uh my father you know this guy he he went to Porter Prince with his mom and with his sister and um you know they were in search of a better life. So both my parents ended up going to uh Queens, New York, where um they met. My dad uh picked up the piano. He became a musician, which is how he met my mom. They were part of this huge gospel band called Kesner Gamir and Mighty Gospel. And um you know, they met at choir practice or whatever the story is. You know, they got married and had me and you know and and they instilled in us like values like the Haitian values is like it's called lick lai, right? Leall is school, lai is the house, and ligies is church. So like if you're not doing one of those three things, you're a vagabon. What exactly that translates to, I don't know, but it's not good. You don't want to be called it. Okay. So, um, [laughter] no. So, so that was like the values they instilled in us. And, um, that turned into like when I when I got older, you know, I'm fast forwarding, but maybe I should slow down a little bit more. Um, so my mom and my dad, they ended up splitting. Um, you know, and we moved to Philadelphia. My dad was a was a big church musician. One of one of his things that he told me was like, you know, I'm going to teach you to play the piano. And the reason why was because he always wanted me to have an excuse to go to church. That was his that was his thing. Like he he it was important for him. And he knew if I was useful to the church, I would show up. And that ended up being exactly. >> So um he paid for lessons for me from like six years old all the way to like I think it six to 16. It was like 10 years. I had this Chinese lady, her name was Miss Niho, you know, shout out to her. She uh >> she she was amazing. She was like an actual teachers teacher. She was very strict and um made sure that I knew the fundamentals, but I was lucky. I I was gifted in the sense that um if I listen to it, I could just play it, right? So, she caught wind and she realized that, you know, she can't play the song before I demonstrate my ability to read the sheet music because she realized that I didn't actually study all week. I just kind of cheated and listened to her and I copied it. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh turned into like, you know, when I finally got older, like 14, 15 or 12, whatever it was, I was good enough to actually play at church and and I actually started doing what my dad had me um doing. >> And um >> you know, that turned into like me getting good at music. And then there was this guy and Gerald, you know, he's probably going to watch this. You know, shout out to you, G. I talk about you all the time. I really appreciate you. And it turned into like, you know, he saw me at church and playing all these instruments. He's like, "Yo, bro, you're really good at music. Come to the studio with me." You know, and um that was actually pivotal for me to become Jewish, you know, to start practicing Judaism because with the values that I brought that we were brought up with, you know, Gerald was actually older, so he was more solid, but like I was in environments around uh really talented people who uh weren't so talented at making right decisions, right? So I was uh in a very precarious situations very frequently and um it you know Brook Hashem I I was gifted in that area. So, you know, God God allowed us to uh you know, you know, have a lot of success in in the realm of music where you know, I had songs on the radio just we had a lot of success and I don't want to go into it and um with that success came the realization that this is um a lot different than what I was brought up with, you know, like the so so I had started internal conflicts and and that the internal conflict fortunately for me was happening while I was still playing piano at church while in the studio gangsters, right? So, I was fortunate enough to go to the church early one morning just to get up and get set up. And uh there was this lady, the pastor's wife, she was reading um she was just reading out the Tanakh whatever she was reading and it stuck with me. >> And uh >> you know, I don't know when she said whatever she said, I picked my head up because it was like a bunch of other young guys, right? They're young guys, young girls. Everybody's uh you know, they're there too. And uh I look around and like everybody's just kind of playing with their fingernails and completely uninterested in anything going on. I'm like, whoa, what's going on here? So, um you know, that stuck with me. You know, nobody cared, but I cared and I started going home and my mom had ended up getting married to this guy, um you know, my stepdad. Um, and it's interesting because we started practicing a version of Christianity that um, we kept Shabbad and like Yamipur and uh, you know, Pesak and all these different things and and that and and up until that point, you know, it it made sense to start doing these things because I could find the answers in the Tanakh, which is where it started from, right? So, and I can find answers. So now I'm I'm starting to learn with my stepfather and and and he's answering questions that I'm having and and everything he's showing me. He's like, "No, don't take my word for it. This is where you can find it in the Tanakh and and this is the sources." And I'm like, "Okay, this all checks out." So I'm now I'm at a point where I step away from the music. I'm not doing it anymore. And um well, at least not in the same way. Now it's me and G. That's it. It's just me and G. We're not going to studios anymore. Now I'm I'm just you know trying to live upright as much as I know life and you know keeping Shabbat to the best of my abilities. But um after about a year or two of that and I'm going through college I start uh realizing that you know being religious at such an engage and there's no one else around me doing it. It's just it's not so fun. You know [laughter] there's a lot >> fun being with my peers. So I I I >> And which city is this at the time? >> Where are you living? >> I'm in Atlanta the whole time. Atlanta. Okay. >> Hasham. Yeah. So, so yeah. So, so we're in Atlanta. All this is happening in Atlanta and um you know, I I find myself um again in involved in uh in areas amongst people who are are really fun to be around and um um and they're and they're really good at having a good time. They were just really poor at I was also really poor at making uh you know, good life decisions at the moment. So, you know, we we realize that, you know, fortunately for me, I still have the Tanag and I'm still, you know, still going to church, still playing music. So, you know, I have enough sense to be like, you know what, this this this information, every time I do it, it works for me. So, I I should probably, you know, rearrange my life. So, I end up doing that. Um, you know, I graduate college and, uh, completely done making music at this time. And I and I start traveling. and I I go to school for respiratory therapy and um you know that's my profession that's my day job and um I start traveling around and um I'm going to like cuz this is at the height of COVID and they're like throwing money all around you know to medical professionals they they're short staffed everywhere they need people it's the height of co >> you know it's at a point where I'm making like $20,000 a month I'm like 22 23 24 years old with tons of money right and it's just money in my pocket and and and and like I'm single but I want to do the right thing I want to be religious. And that's when my dad gets into my ear. My dad's like, you know, you know, young men, they they marry, they have wives. You know, this is this is the way that a young man behaves. And he's like kind of guiding me. And uh you know, I'm I'm listening to my dad cuz I really appreciate my dad. You know, he's always giving me really good advice. He's always been there for me. And I got a good relationship with the guy. Shout out to him. And my mom's also here with me, too. She's like, you know, I'm dealing with these different girls and she's like, you know, your your woman is supposed to be a friend. you're not supposed to be arguing all the time with these girls. I don't care >> these you're not supposed to be arguing, right? So um so my parents are giving me a lot of um instruction and um you know I don't know fortunately for me I was listening uh whatever whatever made me listen I listened to them and um you know around that time I I ended up going to this Bible study at this church and uh I run into this this uh this 5 foot7 mocha caramel. She's wearing a blue dress with flowers and she's got a head wrap on glasses. Pretty. I'm kidding. She's not wearing any of this stuff, right? But, [laughter] you know, my my wife and her mom and um you know, her mom sees me and she starts talking to me and you know, she's letting me know, you know, how how nice it is to see a young person of my complexion because in the environment that we were in, I was the only person who looked like me besides them. And um you know, she was just letting me know how how appreciative she is that there's young brothers who are um who are who are who are you know serious about God and she wants to keep in touch with me. So she has my wife take out her phone and she says, "Hey, let's keep in touch." And says, "Diamond take his phone number down." And we exchange numbers, me and my wife, not me and her mom. And she's like, "Yeah, touch." And that was like the beginning of a 24 25 maybe 30 minute conversation because she kept talking and I was like all right let's go get out some food to eat and uh you know she lets me know I thought my wife was 16 at the time you know my wife uh got a mask on you know she's just she eats salads all the time so she's got like glowing skin you know >> real taking care of herself and um you know she I find out she just graduated college and um you know after a few >> I'll pause you there just to leave everyone on a cliffhanger We'll be right back to our episode. But first, I want to remind you that giving saddaka has never been easier in the history of mankind. Before my episodes, I always want to welcome in more blessing. All we want to do is make sure our content is wellreceived, and I love doing that through the Kal Kabad Saddaka Pashka app. So, I didn't yet do it today, but I'm doing it right here with you. And if you have the app, whip out your phone and give Saddaka with me. together internationally. Let's provide impact in 3 seconds. 1 2 3 and here we go. That's it. It's been done. Download the Kabataka Pushka app today and create unimaginable impact with the click of a button. It's so funny because it's not the first time I've heard of people meeting at church. any secular friends I've had, any Christian friends I've had, they meet at church. And I think like that's a great space to meet, you know, like if you're someone that's very divinely connected and you're passionate about your religion, you know, think about Judaism, meeting someone at Shu, everything's very separate, to keep things very kosher and appropriate and focused. >> But theoretically speaking, it's a great space. You don't want people to meet necessarily at a party. you don't want them to necessarily meet at a space that's not holy. Shu's a great space. Church is a great space. So, I just appreciate that sentiment. And before you tell us how you got connected to Kana, I want to first go into Kana's world and ask you how did you grow up? >> Okay. So, I grew up in a Christian home also. Um, but like it was it was like a domination of Christianity. It was Seventh Day Adventist. So it's like I don't know if I should say Judaism light but in a way because we didn't like like usually people go to church on Sundays and you know different other different days of week but Sunday is like the main day of worship but like if you're Venice usually go we you know we'd say Sabbath we'd be like happy Sabbath and we'd go to church on Saturdays and so that's basically how I grew up. Um there was a period of time where we weren't going, but from my earliest years, we went there and we kind of took a break. And then when I was like starting middle school, we kind of started going back. Um but yeah, so that's that's how I grew up. We church every Saturday. It was like a small small congregation of people. Um >> also in Atlanta. >> No, this is down south. So I grew up southeast. I always tell people Savannah area, but I'm from like small college town, like an hour from Savannah. And so it was it was that it was a small town like it was a small town. Um >> small town living your seventh day Adventist life. >> Yeah, basically. And so like for me it was like there I don't know it was I just I always grew up that way. But like I guess there was that aspect of in the same way he's talking about like being around peers and friends because a lot of my friends like some of them like they would be like they were religious not so much but like I guess I was really drawn to and I wanted to be like I wanted to have like some like connection with Hashem basically. And so like I was just I was that one friend that you had in school who was like maybe you know like how do I describe it? Like I was that friend kind of like the mom friend in a group. So it's like if there's somebody doing whatever you know I was like h like do you really want to do that like you know I'll I was the I don't know >> the voice of reason. >> Sounds like maybe you were more a little bit more mature. >> I guess so. Yeah. So >> I was kind of >> that's funny [laughter] >> the mama. [gasps] But um >> and so and so what did you think when you initially met Caleb in Khalif in church? So my initial honestly at the time so I'm in college and I was it's like I wanted to date I was like looking for someone but also at the same time like I would I go I was I'm attending a public university and I'm already 7th Day Adventist so there aren't that many people there aren't many people my age in my age group much less like options in terms of dating. So by the time I actually met him, I was just kind of like over it all >> really. I was just like whatever. Like I don't I'm not interested, you know? Like >> so when my mom started talking to him, I was just kind like okay. Like she's just she's just chatting him up and I was just there just hanging out, >> not really saying that much. Um >> it was co >> What happened next? >> [laughter] >> Okay. So, after after my mom's chatting with him, we were talking so long that after a while he just kind of was like, you know, would you guys like to go out for lunch? Um, so we went out with him and then >> didn't think I had enough money to do that. I know. >> Yeah. So, [laughter] we went out to lunch and then at some point you were talking. He's like, "Oh yeah, like I make music. I'm a rapper." And I was just like, "Oh, not my [laughter] type. Um, but you know, like I'm just I'm still just there. I'm kind of like, okay, like we're here. I'm just kind of listening and everything. And then after we leave for lunch, I think you contact he contacted me like a week or so later and like was it it was a month. >> It was a while. >> It was a while. Okay. Well, so he contacted me a while after and invited me out for I think to go shoot pool actually. >> Sounds about right. to shoot pool. >> And initially I was like, uh, I don't know. But I had a roommate at the time. Um, she's really great. And she's like, "Oh, you know, like I think you should go. Like it'll be fun." I'm like, "Okay." Like, and she was like, "If it makes you feel any better, like she would be my chaperone without him realizing that she's my chaperone." So, like she did I don't I don't know what you call that, but something kind of like out of a movie or like >> Yeah, it sounds very 1800 style. Like you felt like you wanted someone to be there to supervise a date. >> Yeah, basically. But he doesn't he never met her so he had no idea. She's like, I'll just, you know, I'll just walk in casually like just kind of like hang out in the corner or something. >> Yeah. So, and then >> and once we actually went out on the first date, well, we went first we went to a bar. I'm 21 at the time or over 21. I'm like 24, I think. >> I'm 24. So, my roommate is like 19. >> And so, we go into the bar and then that's I guess the kind of plot twist because she's underage so she couldn't actually go in with us. She just kind of hung out in the car outside. Um but um after after we went after we left pool, we went to Waffle House. Um we were just kind of chatting. >> And how long did the two of you go out for before you decided you wanted to get married? >> Um I think it was maybe four months. Was it four months? >> Is that the average in your community or is that short? Is that long? >> Quick. Yeah, that was quick. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Sounds It was pretty quick. >> That was bullet fast. Yeah, that was that was quick. >> Usually people dating for like months, maybe year. Yeah, a year or two. So for us, we went out maybe like five dates. It was like a date a month. >> That's like you guys were Jewish before you were Jewish. >> Little did we know. [laughter] >> What motivated you to accelerate the process so fast, especially in a community where that wasn't really done? I mean, you know, it was a a motivation to like, you know, for what we knew at the time, like that was what God likes. Like, he likes marriage. He likes family and stuff like that. >> Mhm. >> Like, you know, after all the the the the early apprehensions of like, oh man, you know, she's like 3 hours away and she's like, oh, he's a rapper and all the different apprehensions, you know, we just kept talking and it was like, oh, okay. You know, the conversation is definitely there. You know, I really appreciate, you know, her company and she has really good ideas. Oh, she's actually genuine. Like, she's actually here for Hashem on purpose. I was like, "Oh, okay." And, you know, like I feel like we grew on each other and the more we talked and the more we we got to know each other, the more we liked each other. And it and it just kind of happened like that. And then after you know know you know fortunately in the Jewish world you have a shaitan and you know you have like people who who supervise dates and you know if if you're not Jewish and you want to make sure you're keeping things kosher you get married okay you don't play around with take God seriously and you treat God with the utmost respect and you know you make sure you keep his to I mean whatever you know at the time the best you got is the best you do and so you know we did the best I asked my dad I asked my mom I asked her mom she talked to her parents >> and um we got married so fast her sister thought she had a baby or something on the way. [laughter] [gasps] >> I mean that's that is the case in this in in more of the secular world. It's like oh you know maybe there's something that happened along the way. So that leads me to my next question which is when did the two of you start your conversion um journey and what led to making that decision together? It was it was like a series of things honestly cuz after we got married I felt like the right thing you know okay backstory growing up Christian there's like this whole saying it's like the man is the head and Yoshki is the head of the man and then Hashem is the head of it's all this weirdo voters are but the point I'm getting at is I was under the impression that as the husband and as the head of the household it's my job to make sure that we are close to have persp for a coup. So to me that meant we got to wake up every morning real early, sit down at the table and learn to knock. That's what we had. That's what we did. So we learned it. And um we did that every morning for a year and a half. Like we already had our kid. He was just born. We had baby showers. We met all all the people were still going to our church, but we were learning Tanakh every single morning. And um ironically, the more Tanakh we learned, the less Christian we became. And I don't even know how that makes sense, but that's exactly what happened because the first thing we found out was Yosh in the Christian world, he is Hashem. They they they say that he's Hashem. They say he's, you know, he's this divine being and all this stuff. But here you have in the Tanakh, Hashem saying he's one alone. There's nobody else with him. Now, when I find this out, I'm the only one who finds this out. And I'm like an oddball. Okay? So the more Tanakh we learned, the less Christian we became because we started finding out that okay lots of different things but number one that Yosh isn't God. Okay. And that that's that's what got us in trouble. We found that out because the Tanakh says you know Hashem is one alone. No one else with him. He stretched out the heavens by himself. And in the Christian world that I was in they were suggesting that Yosh created everything. But the Tanakh said Hashem created everything by himself. He stretched out the heavens and he sits above the circle of the earth. It's shown to you today that there's Hashem alone in heaven above and on earth below there's no one else and all these different verses in in the in the in the Torah. And um you know I had this buddy I used to play chess with every day at that time. I mean I wasn't making music. I was playing chess and hanging out my wife and learning to knock stuff. I'm going to shoot two pools. So I had time. So me and my buddy we would play chess and then we started talking about the things I'm reading out the Tanakh. And uh he uh is a very passionate Christian. Thank God. You know, you know, Christians are are very good people. I'm not saying this to bash any Christians. You know, a lot of things in America and a lot of people in America benefit from Christians, but he was a very passionate guy. And when he found out that I rejected the notion that Yosh was God, that created a a spiral of events that ended up getting us kicked out of church. >> Oo. What was that like for you? [clears throat] >> Polarizing. It was very polarizing because at that point we realized like, you know, the only people who believe what's written inside this book is Jews. So, we got to make a decision. Either we going to go get kicked out of another Christian church or we going to call up the local kabat house and we going to start showing up every week. And that's what we ended up doing. We called up our >> So here's my question >> before you go there. >> When you presented [clears throat] this ambiguity, this contradiction to your pastor, your minister, what was their response? Cuz I would imagine you first tried to question and clarify your confusion before coming to this conclusive space of, "Oh, this doesn't make sense." So, what was their response? I'm just curious to hear. I don't want to say I don't I don't want to leave a bad impression of these people, but they they >> okay >> they uh >> had things to say. And my rebuttal was always, well, why does the book say this? And there would never be an answer for why the book said this. They just had statements that they made. And um you know, I I don't fault them for it. They did the best that they knew. And um really and truly I learned a whole lot from these people that some of the information I still use till this day. But like on that particular subject that was just something that you know we won't see eye to eye on. And uh I was very firmly presented the opportunity to pursue a religious life elsewhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what did that conversation look like? It was full of a lot of uh >> emotion >> and um a a lot of surprises. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. >> Lots of emotion and lots of [clears throat] surprises. >> Keeping it ambiguous and safe. It's totally fine [laughter] >> because these are really good people and they did a lot for us. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, it was full of a lot of emotion surprises and we learned a lot from them. They helped us out. They they gave us our first baby shower where >> Oh, can you flick it off? >> Maybe. >> We're outside. You had some visitors. [laughter and gasps] >> Thank you. I appreciate you flicking off this. >> Oh my gosh. You're welcome. >> Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, they did a lot for us. They they helped us with our first baby shower and >> fed us. Yeah, you have you have a lot of a carcass to which is uh which is it's it's beautiful to demonstrate a carve to everyone independent of what their background is ethnically, spiritually. And one of the reasons why I asked what their response was is because some churches may proudly share that uh they believe in Yashka and Christianity. And yet when someone has an affinity towards Judaism, >> it's been documented that they've shared they are the chosen people and you're not going to find what you want here. And if you want truth, >> then pursue Judaism >> while still exercising their beliefs. And it doesn't I I find that to be fascinating. >> Uh and so that's why I was asking. I don't want it to come across as >> uh disrespectful in any way. >> No, no. I appreciate you clarifying. Yeah, it was it wasn't like that at all. [laughter] >> Okay. And so what was the next step for the two of you? You get kicked out of the church. You realize that what you've grown up with doesn't seem to make sense and you're feeling an affinity towards Judaism after learning Tanakh. What comes next? >> Yeah, we call up our local Kabad house, Rabbi Zman Fischer and uh a Kabad of Augusta. Thank God for them. >> We were messianic for a little bit. >> We were messianic for a little bit actually. You know, there was this really there's these messianic Jewish people like they're Jewish people, but they believed in Yoshk, right? So, in my head, that was like the next logical step. You know, I still believed in Yosk at the time. I just didn't think it was God. So, we found these amazing people, the Deleó. These guys are Sephardic Jews, conversos, and and they kept it in their family. There's amazing stories. There was this one lady. She uh she grew up, her mom made sure she sent her to the Catholic school on purpose, and then they hid the fact that they were Jewish. and she's telling us stories about how she grew up and all this stuff and she's like I don't know >> hearing the stories >> hearing the stories and they they they certain people survived out the Holocaust all this amazing stuff but they ended up believing in Yoshki and these amazing people they really welcomed us and um you know the only reason we ended up not staying there is because as we kept learning Tanak we just realized that even though these are Jewish people this is Vodara and we should probably continue on our journey down the line to the Kabad house which is which is there's knows and involved in inab. >> How did you recognize that? How did you recognize that it wasn't what you were looking for? Because it it does sound exactly like where you were. How were you able to differentiate the difference between what you learned and what you saw? >> I don't know. Luck, I guess. Hashem. Yeah. I don't know. It just worked out. >> I know. It was like because I think it I think it goes back to like there were contradictions. So, it's like we started with Okay. like it says Hashem is one. Hashem, >> okay, Hashem is one. And then like as they're reading more and then we're going to the Messianic place, it was it was still the same thing like it was they were reading I think it was they're reading a verse out of Tanakh and I remember you pointing it out cuz then I went and looked at it. >> You're like, "Okay, like in Tanakh it's something that >> um maybe Yakuz is [clears throat] in Yakuz somewhere." But it was like there's a phrase there was a phrase that was mentioned and they used it in school and it was it was it was phrased it was it was a positive it's supposed to be a positive thing and it had to do about you know keeping the Torah essentially but like in it's a Christian book it was it was framed as a negative thing like keeping the Torah is now like a yoke it's like a heavy like like bondage kind of thing. So it was like it was like it was framed in a completely like it was it was framed in a contradictory manner and so then it was kind of like okay that I feel like that was kind of like the the train that like led to us like not believing in your anymore basically. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Broke. Yeah, that that definitely happened. I mean I I mean Yeah. Thank Thank you for explaining that. I appreciate that thought. >> Yeah. I mean Yeah, that that's what happened. That's exactly what happened. Yeah, for sure. Fascinating. 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You never have to feel distressed and you can make better decisions in a clearer way, which is what we all want. If you are a matchmaker, this is a fantastic tool. If you're a parent, this is a fantastic tool. And if you are single, yep, you took the words out of my mouth. It just makes the whole process, which is a hard process, a lot easier. So, anything that can help is something that I would love to be involved in. So, learn more details at resonise.com or find the link in the show notes below. And then what did your conversation look like with Kabad once you reached out? How do you even find them? How do you even know about them? >> Well, before we get there, when we started realizing this, I was the first person to notice it and I was telling my wife and she's like, "Whoa, wait a minute now." Cuz we grew up, Christians grow up believing from the time you're born up until you're an adult, Yoshk loves you and he's the way, he's the truth and the life and you can't have anything without him and like you are going to burn in hell for eternity if you don't believe in Yoshk. So when I when I like first noticed that, I told my wife and she's like pumpkin. [laughter] She was like not. So I was telling her and she would like look it up for herself. on me. >> He would point out I'm like, "Okay, like this is different." But when I go back, >> Yeah. and I go back and read it myself and it's like there's I feel like there's that part where it's like there's I guess the emotional there's the emotion and there's like the reason like the logical logical sense where it's like okay well this is it says it right here. it's like plainly stated, you know, and so it kind of like you get to a point where you kind of think like and then it's like I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out my words. Um but >> you're doing a great job. >> Thanks. >> I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Like I'm just trying to imagine if I was pra like I I just can't imagine practicing a religion to a state where all of a sudden I recognize it doesn't make sense and that force drives me to consider an entirely new life. Like it's mindblowing to me. Mind-blowing. >> It it is it's a really big deal. like you it's kind of you grow up and this is the way you live and then all of a sudden you find out that the way that you've been living for 20 something years is like not it and so like I understand cuz I've seen people's stories where they like just abandon Christianity they leave they leave religion altogether like all right well if this is a lie then you know like what's left there's nothing left so like but for us it was more so like okay like well there's There's a discrepancy here, but you know, we still believe we still believe in God. We still believe Hashem is one. So, it's kind of like, okay, well, what's next? You know, like >> Yeah. So, fascinating. So, what was next? >> So, the two of you, >> so we came to like an agreement like we we both like kind of accepted like, okay, this Tanakh is clearly saying something different than we than we see growing up. And like I guess you know and there's a lot of emotions in that too. Like yeah sure we we like logically ran through it right but like it took like a couple months too to emotionally process like wait what do you mean this guy's a faker? I prayed to this man I trusted him right I felt betrayed you know. >> Yeah and it was a process. It wasn't like oh we just dropped it all together. It's kind of like every day that we're reading Tanakh and we're reading the Torah. It's a gradual process of like, okay, well, we leave this. And it's kind of like, I don't know, imagine somebody like they have all these bags on their back and then they're just slowly taking one off one by one like as they walk down a road. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Till eventually you just >> you got no bags no more. >> Yeah. You're just kind of you just kind of done. >> Ain't no more shackles. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it was like a process. So, we like we definitely broke it down day by day and Yeah. It was it was definitely slowly cuz we would learn one thing at a time and one thing at a time and it will break down. Like there's this idea that Yosh is the uh like he he dies for your sins and like he's the he's the payment. He's the sacrif and and there was like so many things wrong with that. But the first thing that we learned that broke that down was it said it in Deina. We we did this cycle where we read the Torah over and over and over again. And then we would go through the Na'vi and then the writings and then the New Testament, but we just it just wasn't enough time in the morning. So we never actually made it to the New Testament. We just read the the Torah over and over again and we went through the Na'vi. So one of the things that it said was like a person has to die for his own sin. If a person does an a vera and if that a vera is an a vera worthy of death then that person has to die for it. It can't be his father. It can't be his son. It can't be his brother. It has to be that person himself. So like when we read that and it was like okay Yosh can't die in place of me. What do you mean he can't? I thought he was my and then like the gears start turning and >> you realize okay all right >> Hashem said that if a person doesn't and and then you realize like you know this that's actually justice if one person does something wrong like robs the bank another guy can't be like oh no make him innocent I'll go in his place no we're not going to take you didn't do anything wrong move out the way we want the guy who actually robbed the bank you know that that's justice but we didn't process that like that up until that point when we read about the Torah. So, so finally after we broke down all those walls, we called the rabbi up and um Rabbi Salman Fisher, I'll never forget it. I was like, "Hey, Rabbi, what time is services on Shabbat?" He was like, "930." I said, "All right, I'll see you there." And then I came in, we didn't know what we were doing. We show up and they're reading out of these blue books and everybody has a where's the rest of the Bible? Why is there only the first black books here? Men sit over here and women sit over there. Why? What are we in the 1950s? What is going on here? you know, like we're completely out of our element. And then not to mention in Augusta, we are the black Jews, okay? And we weren't even Jewish. >> I was going to ask you guys, I was going to call a spade a spade like we're like, "What's it like to walk into a synagogue and be the only black people there?" And you're like, "Wait, this isn't what it was like in the South. What's going on?" >> Yeah. So, it Yeah. Yeah. When when we showed up, we realized that Yeah. Where we are Where are we? What are we doing? [laughter] >> Yeah. We Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely interesting. So, but you know the people, fortunately for us, Kabad of Augusta was predominantly safari at that time. There's people from Morocco, from Brazil. There was a bunch of people and they were like super welcoming and they're like super safari. So, they're like, "Hey, what's up?" They like welcomed us and yeah, it was great. It was great. >> So, um you know, we kept showing up. We didn't think anything about conversion. We didn't know anything about conversion or anything like that. We just kept showing up. The first day, Rabbi Fischer told us there's chol, there's egg salad. And we took a bite of that chol. kept coming back and um [laughter] you know like we just kept showing up and then there's these boys. Shout out to those boys. I don't ever want to say their name cuz I don't know if it's appropriate but it was three boys, three brothers. They know who they are. And um you know they were like why do you keep showing up? What are you going to convert or something? Are you a convert? Like why are you here? Like what are you talking about? What is a convert? What is it? >> They were like we don't really want to be in sh Why do you keep showing up here? [laughter] >> And like me I didn't know any better. My wife didn't know any better. We're like, "What do you mean Shabbat? We got We got to show up. That's how we were brought up." So, we're like, "Shabbat. What do you mean? Why are we here? Shabbat. What are we going to do on Shabbat? We got to come show up." >> So, they're like, "Okay, fine." But we kept showing up and they keep asking like, "Yo, why are you doing this?" Like, "Are you going to convert? Are you going to convert? Why don't you just convert? Convert already. Convert. And when you convert, make sure you convert to Safari." We didn't know anything. They're like, "Convert Safari because you know, you know Passover, you're going to enjoy dork Passover, right? Safari Boy, like 15 at the time, whatever." So, um, but that's what we end up, uh, doing. We kept showing up and then we finally after like two years, we tell Rabbi Fisher, we're like, "Hey, you know what? I think we actually want to do this conversion thing." And, um, you know, he helped us out. He he showed us the ropes and and and it was a very strict conversion. Brook Hashem, thank God for Rabbi Cinderavic, Rabbi Stern, and Citron and everybody in the South Miami Bay. Then, they they did a very phenomenal job. They made sure we knew everything and they asked us questions that nobody else knows, which thank God they did. It was great. It was awesome. >> Whoa. And when you showed up, you were showing up to this Jewel for two years and you weren't Jewish. I would imagine people speculated strange things or were confused. Like no one ever asked you to leave. No one ever made you feel uncomfortable. People just welcomed you. It was like I think when we did when we first started coming, well, first we're [laughter] I guess we're like a young couple. I just had my son So he was maybe three or four months old when we actually started going to Kabad. Yeah. So like showing up at 9:30 with the baby in a car seat. And so like you know like people ask questions. They would ask it's like oh like you know what brings you here? Like cuz it's just like it's a natural thing. You see something you're like oh >> like why are you here? Like >> you know but everyone was very kind about it. They were just curious but >> just stand they would they would definitely be like what do you vote? [laughter] They'll kind of look, not say nothing at all, just kind of look and I'm like, "What's up? I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna keep being here every week." And they're like, they we can't get rid of them. I guess we'll embrace [laughter] like Okay. Like they're just kind of asking questions and just seem like okay. >> Yeah. Amazing. >> Yeah. But they were still kind. >> Yeah. Especially God. >> It's beautiful. It says a lot about the community. Which community was this? Kabad of Augusta. >> Beautiful. Could you >> shout out to Kabad of Augusta? That's in Georgia. >> Yes, Georgia. >> Beautiful. And >> next question is, um, did you know of any black converts? >> I think at that point the only black convert we knew of Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was Nim Black. That was it. Cuz he was on the internet. Like I don't know. I don't know how we found out about him. Actually, we found out about him by accident. I started rapping at the time because at we after we left Yoshk, we didn't really have any music to listen to. Everything had Yoshk in it and there was it was either secular music or Yoshk music. So I was like fine, whatever. I want my kids to listen to something religious. So I started making songs and then for whatever reason I started posting it on the internet and then however I don't know how Jews found me, but they found me and it went viral the first time. And then then people started following me. They're like, "Oh, you should check out the sim black and the black." I like, "Oh, this dude's black." And I'm like, "Oh, that's so dope." And then that was actually around the same time where the house of Lev was just starting their process or whatever the story was and like they were also converting and I was like, "Oh, that's cool." And then he reached out to me and shot me a DM and like we've been cool ever since, man. Phenomenal family. Thank God for them. Really appreciate them. >> Beautiful people. They're both I've interviewed both of them. >> Yeah. Amazing people. And like it just it just we started meeting more people and it was it was it was man, thank God. Like I think we started converting at the right time cuz like even if we wanted to be discouraged at some at a certain point hearing other people going through the same journey and like having completed the journey really was like you know what it is what it is you know we're in this for the long haul you know we we really got a lot of k from these people here for sure. >> That's incredible. Wow. And so now uh do you still go to that same sh in Augusta or did you move since then? we moved. So when we were when we were a part when we're part of our conversion process that was that we needed to be in a bigger community like just a a bigger community like where we came from there was a kabad. I mean there were other shs but it was really just a kabad. So like you know we needed to be I guess we just needed to be in a bigger orthodox community basically. So >> there was like no era of an Augusta. >> It was like Shabbat Shabbat [laughter] cuz at first we used to drive to the Kabad and then after I think it was like after October 7th we stopped driving >> and then at some point we made our way so we were closer to the Kabad and my husband could walk to Shul but I'd be at home with the kids. >> Yeah. Funny story about that. After October 7th happened like we we dive into Hashem because like DJ Crash I don't know if you know DJ Crash. He he had this thing that he posted. It was like, you know, we weren't even >> DJ Krabs. He's amazing DJ. >> I am not familiar with DJ Krabs. Nope. [laughter] >> Phenomenal guy. He's super good energy. He's like a DJ in in in in in Jackson, Lakewood. He hosts New York, Miami, Florida, Canada. He He's all over the place. But he's phenomenal. He posted on his story something about like a Shabbat in honor of like October 7, like everybody's going to keep Shabbat. And I was like, whatever. I'm going to do it. We're going to do it. And my wife was down for it. So, we stayed home that Shabbat. And it was so nice. We we we got to remember that, you know, we got to be careful what we ask for Hashem for because he's going to give it to us. So, we prayed to Hashem and said, "Man, Hashem, we want to move closer to SH. We got this lease. It doesn't end for another year. We want to move closer to Sh. This was great." And two weeks later, our our whole apartment building caught on fire and burned down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Whoa. >> It wasn't our apartment building. >> It wasn't our apartment building. Hashem protected our our unit, but the building caught on fire. >> That's spooky. And you know what else your story shares? It's like people can post things and they have no idea how the ripple effect of how impactful they can be just by trying to share a thought. And how long have you how how long have you been Jewish for? >> Um, a year. A year and some change. It was last year. >> A year and some change. >> Yeah. >> Wow. And how do you find people respond to you when they meet you? Because clearly you're different. We don't have a large population of black Jews. It's growing, but we don't have it. Um, how have people responded to you since? >> I mean, they're usually curious, but otherwise, people are really kind. So, they usually ask, "So, what's your story?" >> Yeah. >> And what would be a message that you want people to take from your story? Do you want to go first or >> I mean it doesn't matter what the obstacles that come with it. If Hashem says jump, you say haha. If he says keep Shabbat, you do it. Whatever whatever he says to do. Even if you don't feel like doing it, do it. He's going to take care of you. He going to look out for you. And then like talk to Hashem. Take time to actually say your own words and pray to Hashem because I I want people to take that because like that's what we did. And like Hashem has been so good to us. I mean, he has been a bunch. I mean, and everybody can say that. No, I don't think anybody can honestly say Hashem has been cruel to him because I mean, come on. We're alive. Number one, whether you appreciate it or not, we're alive. We get to experience life, you know? And and that that was it. Like, just out of appreciation for everything he's done for us, we just kind of try to do our best to do whatever he says, and it worked out great for us in my opinion. Something I'd want people to know is that the same way like I guess the same way when Hashem basically brought brought the children of Israel out of Egypt like he's telling them like I'm with you. Like I'm with you wherever you go. So like for us we kind of saw that even though we weren't Jewish yet like okay like Hashem's with us wherever we go. And like you were saying, [laughter] if it's time for you to go, Hashim will let you know. Like >> he gonna work it out. >> You might not like how it happened, >> but he gonna work it out. >> You might you might not like it when you're in it, but >> you'll see after. >> Might be a hurricane. Everything is destroyed around [laughter] you. [gasps] >> And uh you ain't got no way to get out, but you got to get out because the whole apartment complex is buried under trees and leaves and branches and twigs and stuff. >> And little do you know, you're getting an upgrade. little upgrade the building [laughter] might burn out or you might get fired from your job or whatever happens but he g >> all those things happen to us. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He he going to make sure that you get where you need to go. >> So >> the process ain't pretty but the end result is beautiful. The >> process is >> Yeah. And like something else I'm hearing from your story is study Torah. You never know where it can lead you. That's how your entire story started. study, internalize, question, explore. It can turn into an entirely elevated experience of life if you study. And I wonder, you know, today we have so much accessibility to knowledge in a way that we've never had before in the history of mankind. And sometimes, thank God, thank God, and sometimes our accessibility can turn into entertainment and can turn into background music. And like everything in life, we could kind of take it for granted and it can lose its value. So take time to with intention sit and study the text. >> Study the text because the words are holy and you never know where it can lead you. >> It's led you to us. It's led you to where you are today. And I'm so grateful that you took the time to come in. Just so everyone knows, this is our second attempt to interview uh these amazing leaders. They actually flew into the five towns with their child and there was a miscommunication and remember you walked in, you were like, "So, we have 15 minutes to be interviewed." And I said, "15 minutes? That's not going to work." So, I'm grateful that you took the time to make this work today. Uh, thank you for being here. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you for having us. I want to shout out Rabbits and Sourfisher because I don't think I'd be on here doing this interview if she didn't suggest it. >> You sure would. Shout out to Rabbits and Sarah Fischer. Thank you for everyone that's been a part of this journey and thank you for being here, guys. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks for having us.