When Do I Get Divorced? When Do I Stay Married... | Rabbi YY Jacobson & Lauren Hofstatter

the yeshiva.net. >> We just finished the first episode of the podcast we've all been dreaming about for the past year and a half, maybe longer. TMI, Torah, Marriage, and Intimacy with Lauren Hoffetter. I had to think of the best way to do this where I could kick it off with somebody amazing, somebody we all respect, somebody we can all connect to, somebody normal. And I chores Y by Jacobson. It is a dream of mine. Anybody that works closely with me knows that he is a person that I always said if I could get in a chair, I just want to ask him some questions. And that's what this was. This was me sitting with him and asking him the hard-hitting questions that you guys have been asking me. The topic that we chose was choosing to stay together for the kids. Is that the right thing? Is that the wrong thing? We touched a little bit on emotional intimacy in relationships, how to develop that, what to do in the first year of marriage where it's the most difficult as a new couple. We also touched on a little bit about what to do when you want to get divorced but you don't want to affect your children. What that might look like for you. It was amazing. And I have to like process how I feel about it. But I feel good about it. I have to process like that that just happened and that is a thing because I don't know if you guys know when you have this like dream of something in your head that you hope for and then it actually happens. It's like wait was that real? Did that that actually happen? It did. It actually happened. Episode one. Um yeah, I hope to do more of these. I hope you guys will join me for the ride and I hope you guys enjoy this. Welcome to the first episode of Tor TMI, Torah Marriage and Intimacy with Lauren Hoffetter. We are so so so excited to welcome the amazing Herb Wii Jacobson to the podcast. Um he has a tremendous extensive amounts of knowledge and it is really I cannot even tell you a dream for me to have you as my first guest. I cannot even tell you. Um, so in this episode, something that's come up many, many times for me through social media and in person when I meet with people is the concept of being in a marriage that is potentially toxic and choosing whether or not to stay together, >> whether or not it's it's yeah, it's a it's a very very dicey topic. It's not. So, and then it's almost like, so this is why I kind of want to get your opinion because again, like, yes, I have the clinical lens. Yes, I've been taught certain things. I have my own opinion on it because I have my own background with um just the way I was raised, etc. Like my own opinion, but I really want >> your own background with what? >> My own background with this experience. I come from divorced parents that got divorced when I later in later in life, like when I uh they got divorced when I was postseminary. Um, so I I definitely have my own personal experience, my own personal opinion about it. Um, but I really wanted I know this is something you have to see a lot unfortunately in within the Jewish community. Um, and I really wanted to get your opinion on on this specific topic because it's come up a tremendous amount. >> Sure. Would would would you uh would you be fun if I asked you to first share your opinion and perspective and then maybe I could build on that? I think it may be a little >> I mean I do have some questions that I could like that I I prepared >> but my personal experience >> clinically and my own is that if two parents cannot stay in a home and treat each other with respect and you want to say you don't want to treat each other with love fine but basic respect in front of their children it's toxic it's toxic it's not good for the kids it's not good for your ch for children to be raised in an environment where they see two adults treating each other like garbage. It's just it's just not good. If you listen, I'm a marriage counselor. I definitely try my best to save every marriage that I possibly can. It's important if it can be saved, but if it's at a point where it's so toxic that the parents can't even like hold it together in front of their children, then to me it's time to like figure out either either like a a temporary separation to like navigate things or figure out a way to divorce amicably. That's my personal opinion. Um, what do you think of Jacobson with everything you know? Yeah, you know, I think, you know, we're talking about such a sensitive and delicate and uh, you know, consequential decision that doesn't just have an impact for a week or a year, but really has an impact over a lifetime. So, I do think, you know, every single situation needs to truly truly be considered on an individual basis. Not because there's no general principles, but because we're dealing with such a sensitive sensitive topic. It's almost like, you know, a doctor cannot have just have a generic uh response to every patient that comes. You know, this you're talking about very serious. >> There's nuance, right? There's >> nuance of nuance and just like in the medical field, you know, there's the X-rays and the MRIs and seeing what are the obstacles. As you said, is there potential for rebuilding a marriage? Is the husband ready to get help? Is the wife ready to get help? Are they ready to be able to examine, you know, painful things within themselves? You know, things that are coming up and that are being challenged and then it could sometimes become the gift of a lifetime. But considering the possibility as we all know where either the husband or the wife or both of them or one of them is simply not ready to budge there is a deep deep stubbornness or unwillingness or usually it's a very deep fear and insecurity of somebody moving my cheese and uh you know rooted in very very deep perhaps trauma or other wounds whatever the proper name is I don't think the name is so important >> and you're just dealing with simply a destructive situation where there is uh there's either emotional abuse or physical abuse or uh verbal abuse as you said there's a toxic atmosphere. Um it's just children are not giving given the basic safety that every child deserves and the and the and the adults don't give each other the basic safety that adults deserve then I think we sadly have to consider that as you said either separation until there can be maybe some reflection and and reckoning and repentance or an amicable divorce. Yeah. I mean, that's why the Torah, you know, we don't have to. I mean, you and I know that in Judaism, you know, saving a marriage is of the highest priority. And, you know, divorce is always the last resort. And yet, the Torah introduces divorce as a mitzvah. In other words, it's not a mitzvah for every couple to get divorced. God forbid. But the point is that God says that sometimes my will is that you should get divorced. So that's we also have to understand as much as we grieve and we feel that divorce is like an amputation and you have to take it very seriously. You don't just get divorced because I'm in a bad mood. God, God forbid. But we also need to make sure that people don't feel guilty and ashamed if that is what the situation is because sometimes it literally saves lives and it's also a mitzvah in certain situations. It's a mitzvah. >> Okay, agreed. No, I I completely agree with you. I want to actually speak more on that. Is there ever a point jumping off what you just said that divorce is considered a mitzvah but not because of grounds more so because it could be emotional for this couple because again there's and the children probably like >> for sure no question includes emotions as much as it includes anything else and especially as we know today that emotions affect the person. You know emotions are who we are. They're not just some abstract you know spiritual uh uh transcendent reality in terms of health physical health and emotional health are so intertwined with each other. I mean the Ramba my manities already living in the 12th century has written clearly that illness of the body and illness of the soul are deeply deeply connected >> right >> there were those who used to argue with that but today I think anybody who's in the field of any form of healing and medicine knows that our emotional well-being directly impacts our physical well-being in fact on a deeper level the two are not even separ the two are not even separable they're really one cohesive entity there's no real clear distinction between our chemical reality and our soul reality between consciousness and and cells. Everything is so intertwined and interconnected which is of course in Judaism is based on the truth of Hashem that divine oneness pervades everything. So the spiritual and the physical are two sides of the same reality. So emotional turmoil, emotional uh abuse, emotional pain are not just important factors but critical critical indispensable factors in deciding on a general level, you know, in the past what I have shared and I actually heard this from a marriage therapist in my community whom I look up to and I've gotten advice and he said something it was just it was just helpful maybe it sounds a little technical but I think it could sometimes be helpful you know he told me that he says tells every husband and wife considering divorce it's a very very serious decision two things such decisions need to be made from a place of absolute strength not weakness in other words I want my best version of self to be making this decision Right? >> Because if I'm making it from a very weak impulsive space, >> then I don't know who I am or my strength. I always want to be and we sometimes need help for that. Tuning in to my deep, you know, deep conviction, deep strength, my best version of self and make a decision from there. Not out of fear or panic or impulsivity. Number one. And number two, to really be able to evaluate the pros and the cons. In other words, everybody knows that no path is paradise. You know, sometimes people think I get divorced and my life is blissful. It's not so simple, especially if there's children, right? I stay married and it's also not so simple. So, you really have to almost like I don't mean to I don't mean to make this into a spreadsheet, but I really have to be able to define what are the pros of getting divorced, what are the cons of getting divorced, and in a very very authentic way. What are the pros of staying married and what are the cons of staying married? And then really a person leaning into themselves and asking themselves in the deepest deepest space and of course with support of people they trust, mentors, friends, etc. professionals and say do the pros outweigh the cons? So for example, I may get divorced and it's an amazing thing, but I just have to realize Friday night, what does Shabbat look like in the house? What does PES look like? What does sukas look like? That may mean not much because relative to the benefits of the divorce, it may be fine. It's going to be hard, but everybody just needs to be very, very real and authentic to realize there's no one path that's going to perfect me and alleviate me from all my problems and then weigh the pros against the cons. >> Right? I kind of tell people that when they come to me and they're and they're struggling in their marriage that like both paths are hard. Getting divorced >> and and trying to navigate that whether or not you have children by the way because >> right >> I I I definitely feel that you know getting married and then h potentially having to get a divorce. >> Well, probably if you don't have children it's much easier. No, I mean >> I mean but you're still grieving the loss of the life you thought you were going to have with this person. >> Of course. Of course. You connected with them, you married them, you and there's no likedeed shiva period post divorce. >> There's no like year of aas, you know, it's it's just >> it's it's very fact of life. Yeah. >> Exactly. Right. So >> a shattered dream. A shattered dream and a shattered potentially beautiful opportunity. Yeah. >> Right. So the reason why I find that children make it so hard is because and I tell couples this. You're tied to that person for life no matter what now. Right. >> Because you're not married. That's fine. Right. ch the way children develop relationships is they would develop a relationship with mom. They develop a relationship with dad and they develop a relationship with you as their parents, >> right? >> So, you're still part of that team. You can't really control the way your your ex develops a relationship with your kids, but you do definitely still have to stay part of that team. So, it's kind of it's they're both hard choosing to stay together even through the craziest circumstances or um I mean I I kind of in my brain draw the line at physical abuse like that's that's very to me that's exceptionally diff that to me that would be very difficult. Um, >> no safety. When there's no safety, you can't lose. >> Yeah. Physical safety is Yeah. Even emotional safety, too. But for me, >> it's very hard for me when I get couples like that where where physical abuse is a factor, it's extremely difficult. Like that's something I end up having to make phone calls about and find out what to do because it's not something that's so simple to me. >> Um, but I tell all my clients like, you got to pick your heart, you know, and >> Right. Yeah. >> So that's so important to understand that every path is going to come with a lot of work and sacrifices and we really have to be able to be very honest with ourselves and with our loved ones about the path we're taking and not live in delusions because then we might just you know be very disappointed and things come back to haunt us and it's unexpected. So yeah, >> cuz I was just >> so important and I think also you know talking on this topic is you know I can't emphasize enough how valuable and precious it is when couples even even when they got divorced because of very very very challenging situations that happened between them whether it's betrayal whether it's you know deep deep hurt and disappointment for whatever reasons and factors but the ability of of two mature adults to say yes. Yes, there's a lot a lot of pain here. And yes, there's a part of me that says take revenge. Just take revenge. Make his life miserable. Make her life miserable. But we have three kids. We have two kids. We have one kid. We have six kids. And we don't want to use our children as missiles. And to be able to be amicable, to be able to be respectful even though it's hard, it's difficult, but to realize that he is the father of my children. She is the mother of my children. And if I simply dedicate my life to hurt, to denigrate, to punish, you know, my ex because of what they did to me or because of what I think they did to me. You know, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but the great victims will be poor little children >> who are simply now found in Gaza in a war with missiles coming from both sides. And it's a disaster. It's just it's just a disaster. It's enough. The pain that they you know their parents got divorced, the family is broken. It's enough. And this is what we all have to work on. And I think family, rabbis, therapists, we all need to encourage and motivate and inspire people who are going through a divorce. We want to be here for you. And and you need to have a a place where you could process the pain and process the hurt. I have to tell you, I'm so inspired. There was a couple and the husband really who's been through a lot a lot of crazy trauma and he was unfaithful in his marriage and and that's where they got divorced. But till today I still marvel. It's been years and I've I've been guiding them a little bit. I marvel on the the maturity and the nobility that they made sure that when it came to their children, you know, they were working together. Whether it's a bar mitzvah, whether it's a bach mitzvah, whether it's buying shoes, whether it's the school, the camp, you know, just all the needs, doctor's appointments, you know, how precious, how precious that is when children when children can have that, >> right? >> Contrast that to a woman who told me, it's even hard for me to say, but she shared this with me. She actually sat sitted at a workshop with with single moms. How it was pes was a pes it was her her turn to get the four children and she cleaned the house. She did she prepared for the seder. We all know that's work and it's a single mom because she was getting the four children. And around a half an hour before candle lighting pes she gets a call from her ex that he's sorry but uh there was some obstacle whatever the kids won't be able to make it for yamt >> oh wow >> a half an hour before pes a house clean ready for the seder you understand >> heartbreaking >> another situation I once got a call listen to this a father made a bitzvah for his son and because he know that his he knew his son went through a hard time with the divorce it was a bitter a divorce. He wanted to make a beautiful bam mitzvah that his son would really remember it. It's hard to say. The mother would not let her their son show up at the bitzvah. And the father and the guest came to the bitzvah and the only one who wasn't there was the bitzvah boy. This was her way of taking revenge. People called me cuz they asked me if I could come to the bzitzvah to simply comfort the father. They asked me if I could come to the bitzvah to comfort the father. Now, I know these are very dramatic and extreme examples, but I'm saying that it just shows us what people are capable of when we do not when we do not deal with our hate. When we do not and it could be that you were hurt terribly by your by your spouse. Could be there was terrible stuff. I'm not denying any of it or delegitimizing at all. God forbid. And and and and justice, you know, justice will come when when the God of justice decides. But but remember the 2-year-old child or the 10-year-old child doesn't deserve to be destroyed a second time because their father and mother may have misbehaved in in a very serious way. And I'm just pointing this out because I feel terrible when I see these things. >> So it's interesting. I actually don't think that your examples are that dramatic. I think they're happening a lot and people don't >> Wow. Okay. I was trying >> I was hoping I was being dramatic but you're telling me not. So >> they're happening a lot and I think that I mean the situation with the bar mitzvah is just heartbreaking because >> I mean both are heartbreaking but the bar mitzvah thing because really the mother was punishing the child not the dad >> course of course >> horrible right that's like >> of course >> right like that's you know but um yeah >> the other woman she told me about pes she told me I could not it was be it was a half an hour before candle lighting or whatever the time was I don't remember exactly around that she said I I didn't even have the energy to call up our neighbor or a relative or a friend to go do the sedar by them cuz I was just so devastated. And she told me I did the sedar myself. It took me 20 minutes, 25 minutes. You know, you're sitting yourself. And she was crying. She said, "I don't even think it was a seder. I don't even think it was it was a seder. It was just, you know, I was crying for most of it." And and she asked me, "Do I think it was it was a seder?" I'm just I'm sharing the the the heartache of uh of uh why would somebody do this to their children? Right. What do you think about the concept of because I've heard this a lot which to me is I I mean I have my opinion on it but saying that divorce is the easy way out. >> I don't buy it. I don't buy it. It's like saying chemotherapy is the easy way out. My father had a leg amputated before his death. Is that the easy way out? It depends on the situation. If the leg is so poisoned that if the leg is not amputated, the person will die. So, we're going to leave the leg. You know, you know the old joke, right? The doctor comes out new. How was the surgery? He says the surgery was successful, the patient is dead. I I if if if if divorce is really a shortcut, it's a easy way out because I don't want to do the work. It's true. But if I know if I'm in a marriage and it's dysfunctional, it's toxic, I'm not safe, my children are not safe, it's horrible, there's hollering, there's screaming, there's somebody throwing whatever it is, I'm not going to get into the details. So yes, if there's a potential for me to work on my stuff and for the other person to work on their stuff and both of us are refusing to do that work because of our trauma, because we're stuck in our ego, because we're stuck in our fears and our insecurity and our childhood templates and we're not ready to confront our coping mechanisms, then it's a pity. It's it's it's it's I I have a lot of compassion that you instead of dealing because then instead of dealing with your things, you're just running away because the next relationship is going to show up again. You know, sometimes people think I'm going to run away from this relationship is going to the same thing is going to show up in the relationship. This is something inside of me. But on the other hand, it's so important to emphasize that if let's say you have some one person ready to do the work and the other person is not ready to look at anything. Person who has mental illness, they're not ready to look at it. You're the problem. person who has personality disorder, person who has crazy crazy trauma or inhibitions, disassociated, whatever it is, you know, narcissism, borderline, whatever these things is very serious and I'm not ready to take any accountability. You know, my wife is the demon and I'm the angel or my husband is the demon and I'm the angel. You can't tell such a person that divorce is a shortcut. Is divorce is a is a easy way out. That's not fair, >> right? I agree with you. That's why I feel too. I think they're both extremely hard. I think trying to figure out a way to stay together, especially in the circumstances you described where you have a spouse with a severe very real mental health condition. Yes, in every marriage, you have to learn how to navigate your your spouse's things, >> but that's next level. That's that's >> it's next level. We all we all have to learn how to navigate cuz everybody has idiosyncrasies and all of us are misha and crazy in one way or another. And that's part of being human and it's also could be fun. But we all know there's some things that are next level. When there's no basic safety, when there's no basic safety, you know, in in in a good marriage, the the husband could be in a bad mood, the wife could be in a bad mood, there's sometimes disagreements, there's sometimes very serious disagreements. There's sometimes things that come up that are very very difficult. But you hope that there's a baseline of trust. There's a baseline of civility. There's red lines that nobody crosses, right? Even if a if a wife is really really outraged at her husband, there's a certain red line she won't cross. And the same is true the other way around. Even if he's very very upset and he's very very hurting and they can't have a conversation and they need help. They need help and sometimes it's hard. It's hard but there's a certain there's a baseline. There's a baseline just like we have with our children, right? We have with our children. Your children could make you crazy, right? But still we don't throw them out of the house. I don't throw my children out of the house. Right? >> We don't beat our children. And if we are do beat our children then it's a very dangerous situation. We need help. So there's a certain baseline. This is what we call morality. This is what we call morality. What is morality? Morality is that there's a baseline. In Egypt, it's called Shay. It means God is looking. It means God is present. And it means I'm responsible to God even if I'm in a bad mood. Even if I'm angry, even if I'm hurt, even if I'm upset. And that baseline is something that protects us. Right? This is the this is the the the secret of of of Jewish survival. This is the secret of the Jewish family. A code of morality that guides us even in very difficult situations. If that's missing, if that's destroyed, the basic safety is not there, >> right? >> If I I can't go into bed and I feel safe, if I can't come into my house and I feel this is a safe place, then what am I giving to myself? What am I giving to my children? So, it's next level. And if a woman feels that she could make that sacrifice and it's make it work, amazing. I mean, I don't know if amazing, maybe amazing, maybe not amazing, but okay. >> But but I can't demonize, you I I I feel I feel you know this I know a lot of people who got divorced they tried everything they tried everything their kids were not safe >> right >> their kids were and they were not safe so what what are you telling them they took the easy way out >> that's a cheap shot >> right I agree with you >> it's unfair it's unjust it's unethical and it's it's a lie >> I agree um >> there are people there are people true who get divorced and they could have done a lot more work that's true unfortunately they're not ready to face themselves they're not ready to face themselves. We have to We live in a time where God is asking all of us to face ourselves. >> Mhm. >> It's a gift, but it's a hard. It's hard. It's hard. We need to liberate ourselves from simply surviving and coping into living with consciousness, with mindfulness, with presence. And that means we have to dig deeper. We have to become curious about what is happening inside. Why is my wife triggering me so deeply? Why when my wife or my husband says this, do I go crazy inside? Why am I imploding? Why am I exploding? This is the work. This is called avoid hashem. This is what it really means to serve God. Serve God is not a cliche that I can go to shul for a minion and dav. That's a beautiful thing. But let's face it, that could be very easy. There's a kdesh. There's good company. I have a social life. There's good things to read on the table. So, it's fine. It's not a big deal. >> I'm not knocking it. God forbid. But sometimes we substitute what Yiddish is. Real Yiddish is not just I attend a community and I go to a program. That's very easy. Real Yiddish is serving God means dealing with my fears, surrendering my trauma, going into those places that I don't want to face. That is what it's about. And that's the work we all need to do today, >> right? So my next question is >> including myself. >> Yeah, everyone. What do you think are the biggest misconceptions firm couples have about what a good marriage is supposed to look like? >> That's an interesting question. That's an interesting question. I I'll be honest. I I I'm not since I'm not a marriage therapist or a marriage counselor, I can't tell you that I have an organized uh >> No, no, I don't even want No, no, I have an organized spreadsheet. I don't want that. I want Y. >> You're the one with the organized spreadsheets. I'm going to be the one with the flow of consciousness. Okay. >> Yes. >> I don't have data. I don't have scientific reason. >> No, I want your I I have >> I don't know if anything I say is true. >> No, I want your opinion. Meaning this is your opinion. This is not I don't need any idea. >> Right. So, so I think some of some of the misconceptions that we have is that marriage you put on cruise control. You put the car on cruise control and it goes. I think that is a very important fallacy that every couple needs to understand. Marriage is like I always say it's like a flame. The Kaneka flame burned for eight days. But that was a miracle that happened one year. If you want the flame to continue burning, you have to put an oil every single night. And if you want your plant to continue growing, you have to water it a few times a week. If you leave every couple to its default state, they will naturally drift away. Not because they're bad people. >> No, you're right. >> But because that's the nature of how Hashem created men and women and reality. So, we always have to check in again. We have to come back together. We have to water that plant. we have to pour oil into the flame of love and connection. So that's I think a very very important thing. Another very important thing is that um we don't have to be afraid of conflict when the conflict is done with respect and not contempt. On the contrary, conflict can enhance relationships because it's what allows a husband and a wife to extricate themselves from loneliness. If I'm never going to say anything that my wife will disagree with and my wife will never say anything that I disagree with, we will remain lonely people in our own home. I'm always saying the right thing, she's always saying the right thing. We're very civil, but we're not emotionally connected. So, I think it's actually the conflict. And what I'm talking about conflict is not killing each other. God forbid conflict. I mean the ability for people to be authentic to what they're feeling that allows a marriage to blossom when we know how to do it with respect without contempt without dismissing the other person as crazy or sick. This is we need to be able to give space for each other to be able to be authentic because if not our attachment is skin deep. It's a very very superficial attachment. I want real attachment and to have real attachment I have to be able to be real. I have to be able to talk about things that are uncomfortable and I need my spouse to make space for that just like my spouse needs me to make space for that. I think another very important thing is the the the the the reality of real safety for people to really feel safe in a marriage is something that requires consistent work. You know sometimes we become influenced by the concept of romance. Romance sounds very glorious and romance is beautiful and people read about romance and they crave romance and they look forward to romance. I think for romance to happen the baseline of everything is trust safety and trust and safety doesn't look romantic but it's real. It's real. It's built on daily conversations with respect. It's built on communication. It's built on the fact that I can feel that my wife knows who I am, wants to be connected to me. I am safe with her. My wife feels the same about me. Husband and wife feel that for their spouse, they are the number one person in the world. They are the priority in the world. There is a commitment. There is a desire that I want to be able to be understood by you and I want to understand you. So I think that those daily those daily rituals and engagements that build that trust and safety are critical and often people don't understand that they don't realize the value of that and the importance of that and another thing is extremely important I would say is how much our own internal templates influence the marriage which means you know two women a woman could say two two women could say the same think to two different husbands, a woman to her husband, other woman to her husband. One is triggered crazily, the other one is not. The other one barely heard it. Very often, what I'm putting on my wife is really something that has been triggered inside of me, a wound that has never been dealt with. And my spouse's reactions to me is actually a divine gift for me to be able to deal with my stuff. So very often in relationships I think people often don't understand you know it's very easy to to blame the other person say my husband is x y and z my wife is xyz now yeah your husband has flaws and your wife has flaws there's no question nobody's perfect no question but very often what's happening here does nothing to do with my wife's flaws has nothing to do with my husband's flaws it has to do with deep deep wounds that I never ever dealt with you know if at 3 years old I never felt appreciated and I always felt like I was controlled by others and I had no agency in life and I don't even like myself and then my wife tells me, you know, you forgot to bring wine or don't forget to lock the door. She's completely innocent. She just wants me to lock the door. But what I hear is, oh, somebody's controlling me again. Somebody doesn't trust. Oh my god. Wow. And then I blame it on her. And it's our spouses that trigger those wounds more than anybody else in the world. In the yeshiva, in the synagogue, in schul, in the marketplace, at the yoga class, nobody's going to trigger those wounds because they say, "Good morning. How are you? It's nice to see you. I heard a good joke. What's going on?" Oh, I saw you moved. Great. What are you doing for PES? What are you doing for Oh, amazing. It's my spouse who's going to trigger all those wounds. And it's such an opportunity to be able to say, "Wow, what just happened?" And to look inside. You know the bal used to say that the way to really live life in truth is when you realize that everybody is a mirror. Everybody I engage with is really a mirror. What he meant was such a powerful idea. Not that whatever I see in somebody else is a reflection of me. I could see things in other people that are not reflections of me. But my response to what I see in other people is always based on who I am. The way I'm triggered, the way it affects me, the way it provokes me positively or negatively is always because it's a mirror. It's showing me something. And and it's a tremendous gift. And when couples begin to do this type of work, what a gift. What a gift of growth. My wife told me the other day, and I thought it was a brilliant line. She said to me, "Why? Why? What do you think it means that a husband and a wife are two are are are How do you know that your husband your wife is your soulmate? How do you know? And she says, I'll tell you how you know. When you're you see that your wife or husband triggers triggers the living daylights out of you better than anybody else in the world, that means it's your soulmate. This is God literally put this person into your life to trigger all your childhood wounds. So now this time you can heal. This time you can heal. So I think these are some points that I think many couples would benefit from internalizing. >> So yes on all of them. I'm just wondering because this is something that I see when I work with newly married couples is that um cuz I'm also a college teacher. It's something that I took upon myself because um I just felt like I was getting so many young couples in my office that just really needed more than the basic basic what what was being given out. So I tell couples I'm like okay so you know you go to kala classes you you get this book of like hala great and your husband hopefully goes to classes you get this hala but no one hands you the book on here's how to develop emotional intimacy so what do you recommend for those you know they say sha rishona's rough you know for multiple reasons but what do you recommend you know for because everything you said is beautiful and 100% I agree with and it's interesting the part about the trauma. I kind of in my head when I explain it to people, it's kind of the concept of like having a hangail like during the day, whatever, or an ingrown toenail, fine. Like it doesn't really bother you so much, whatever. But if somebody steps on that toenail, it hurts. And unfortunately, your spouse, your soulmate knows exactly how to step on that toenail. >> Yeah. >> You know, they know how. >> And sometimes sometimes it's unconsciously. It sometimes it's literally it's not even consciously. >> Right. Right. It's like, oh, I was >> But they know how to touch all your sunburns. All your sunburns. >> Exactly. Exactly. They know how to touch them. Nobody else other people they don't touch them. They touch other places. >> What do you recommend? >> They touch all the sunburns and and Yeah. And it it's very hard and you know I I want to express empathy cuz I I know in my own life it's hard. It's hard to go there emotionally. We get stuck. We get resentful. We get angry. We get spiteful. We become obnoxious. We disassociate. You know we go into fight, flight, freeze, fawn. These are all >> powerful survival templates that we have cultivated and and that's what happens in marriages. And it makes sense we need to have compassion for our own reactions because those are what they call the amygdala's reactions to an experience of danger in my nervous system. >> If a lion comes into the room, I feel the danger and I run from my life or I freeze. And sometimes when my husband walks into the room or my wife walks into the room, in my own perception, a lion just walked into the room. And we need to understand that. We really need to understand that. And the more we have awareness of it and we can hold space for it, the more we have agency and free choice to actually choose a different reaction to say, "Wow, breathe. Breathe. Hug yourself. Realize what just happened. And now you are courageous. You are an adult. You're physically safe. and maybe you can choose a different reaction and after 60 times you're going to have a new neural pathway and you won't have to go back to that old reaction. >> Right? So, >> so we need a lot of a lot of compassion for that. In terms of the first year, it's very important to people for people to have a support a support system a mentor a therapist a uh somebody close to them a confidant. Ah >> like a r a mashia someone. Yeah. >> Yeah. But somebody who understand who's who who who understands their situation, somebody they trust and somebody who can who can guide them and is helping them. In other words, I'm going to a mashbia or a rebbiton or a rabbi or a therapist or anybody and after 3 months or two months it's not helping the marriage. So it's time to find somebody different like you don't sometimes people feel that they have to they have to stick with somebody >> right >> and I always tell them you know be an educated consumer. You're not here to do the the therapist a favor. You're not here to do the rebbitson to show her that she's a great person. If she needs that validation, then you don't need her. You don't want her. You want somebody else. If somebody's looking for validation and you're trying to give it to them, that's not a good shak. So like ask yourself if after 6 7 8 weeks there's no change, we we need a new person. We need a new person. >> So it's interesting. I know that there's now there's now uh I think that good that other organizations are involved with a sha sha rishona curriculum you familiar with this power teachers >> I didn't hear I didn't hear about that no I did my I did my course through America's ed and out of shaw I did not hear about this we have a good in South Florida but I don't know if it's I don't know if I >> anyway but I do think that these types of initiatives must take root in all of our communities >> for sure I need to find out about >> and not even if there's crisis this is not about crisis cuz when there's crisis everybody knows you go somewhere but I'm not talking about crisis I'm just talking about there's crisis. Nobody's hollering and nobody's screaming and nobody's struggling with divorce. >> Let's do something before there's a crisis. >> Exactly. It's preemptive. But there's little things, you know, there's misunderstanding. She goes to sleep crying. He goes to sleep upset. Those are little things, but they can grow into monsters. And even if they don't grow into monsters, it's going to affect the marriage. It's going to affect the children. So, it's amazing. I think every single couple in Sha Rash, even in the most beautiful situations, can use a very strong curriculum of how to make a good marriage great and an amazing marriage even more amazing and a fine marriage blissful. >> Right? I think >> and it comes with with with stepby-step guidance of people learning how to connect, how to communicate. Also, you have to understand that very often in our schools growing up, we don't have emotional development. You have to understand that you know I went to yeshiva for many years. We learned a lot a lot of gimmar which was amazing and other things but in terms of character development very often people don't know anything about it you know they may have a schoo from the mg a half an hour you know about about being grateful about being kind about being humble which is all good but in terms of real real uh introspection real dealing with our pain and anxiety very often unless you have a serious problem it's not it's often not discussed So now we get into a marriage where it's all about emotional development. It's all about relationships. That's what it's about. It's about tuning into the frequency of the other person and first and foremost tuning into your own frequency. >> Mhm. >> So a lot of people, they're very innocent. They're beautiful people, but we don't know about this. So I think it's very helpful to be able to help people with this. >> Right. Okay. I want to make sure I get to this question because I've gotten this so many times. I'm sure you have, too. What do you say to parents who are worried about getting divorced because it will affect their children? >> Interesting question. I mean, they're worried about themselves getting divorced. >> They're worried. Yeah, the parents are the parents are saying, "We're in a toxic marriage. This is not going to work." Um, I would rather like let's just wait. I've I've heard this so much. Let's just wait for all the kids to get married >> and then we'll just get divorced. >> Interesting. So what do you say? I want to hear what you say about this. >> Um, unfortunately I think in within the world having divorced parents is pretty common, >> right? >> You know what I'm saying? So and and the truth is there are there are much bigger issues out there than parent than than parents being divorced. You know, do I think that when you marry somebody, you marry their family as well to a certain extent? Yes, I I do believe that. And I do believe when you're walking into a situation, if and this doesn't even have to necessarily be divorced parents, when you're walking into a situation where you know your spouse comes from a hostile family background, yeah, there's going to be bumps in the road that you're going to have to help them navigate and work through. Um, I don't the the the problem is and I tell couples this like I just think it's not fair to the kids that that their that that their parents relationship not working out has to be a reflection on them. It's not about them. Has nothing to do with them. Their parents not working out doesn't mean that they don't love their kids, that they're not like has nothing to do with anything. And it and it's almost like they get stamped with this like red stamp like no, you know, and like >> yeah, I I I agree with you. It's really unfair that children should be uh suffering for that. First of all, it may not even be the parents fault. Sometimes a marriage doesn't work for whatever reason. And especially if someone of them suffer terribly and they're not ready to do the work, they may be too paralyzed. So first of sometimes it's not even about blaming them you know but certainly the children why would you why would you blame children at all? So I completely agree with that that it's really unfair. Um I I I would just add one thing and I guess this is I'm not I don't really I don't think this is a brilliant thing I'm going to say just a very simple thing and that is if their children have to come first. So if as a result of them staying married just because of the children, the children are going to be miserable in the home because they simply can't get along and it's just going to be a secret for the world. But in the house it's going to be a world war. Then it's not fair. You're punishing your children and trying to impress the world. On the other hand, if parents can really come to a place and say, you know what, we're going to for the next few years, we're going to get along. We're going to actually be very amicable. we're going to be respectful in the house. Even though deep down we now have a lot a lot of issues and I don't know if that's possible but if they can really come to that space okay amazing you know if you're really ready to do inner work to be able to protect the wholeness of the children forget about marriage let's say the children already have but they make a they may want to make a decision I want our grandchildren to be able to come Friday night to Zadi and Bobby okay it's a beautiful thing it's a beautiful thing and if you're ready for that to do the work that you can at least create some civil relationship in the house and it's working and they both agree and as a result of that there's no screaming, there's no hollering, there's no insulting even though there may be some you know deep frustration and resentment that may be a beautiful thing. >> So if you want to do that great >> but it's you realize what you're doing but don't don't you know don't don't don't try to impress the world and and sacrifice your children on the altar of dysfunction. I don't think that makes sense. >> Right. No, I agree with you. I've had I've had situations where um parents living in the house, sleeping in separate bedrooms or separate sides of the house and they just staying they're staying married till their youngest child gets close to I mean it is it is a secret that stays within the house. They're not they're they're essentially separated. >> Um but they're but they're they're nice to each other whatever. They have their own space. They're basically room quite literally roommates but don't share a room. >> Roommates. Roommates. >> Right. >> Yeah. So, this is a decision that a husband and wife make. We want to be roommates because we feel that there's a greater good and we're ready to go through that sacrifice. And even though it's a little fake cuz people think we're we're, you know, we're normal husband and wife, but we're ready for that. And you know what? We're going to do it in a respectful way because we love our children and maybe we even have a certain loyalty to each other because of all the years, you know, even though yes, there's a lot of fireworks between us. You know what? I think one must say that that can be that could be coming from a very noble place and it may be a very very noble decision. Again, every case reckoned judged individually, >> right? >> But what I'm talking about is a case where they're killing each other, but the world is not allowed to know about it. Only their kids have to suffer and they are blamed. We're doing it for you. >> It's crazy, right? I once heard a painful I once heard a mother tell a child the only reason I stayed with your with your father is because of you. It's because of you. Your father is the most miserable person. And I was thinking to myself, how is that child supposed to feel >> right? >> Forever that child supposed to feel I made my mother's life miserable. I gave my mother prog. If I wouldn't have been here, she would have gotten rid of my father. She would have been free. she would have been happy so to speak. So who is the one who is responsible for her misery at the end of the day? Me. So the mother was trying to tell her, "I did this for you. I did this for you." What was she really doing? She was putting it all on her. That's not fair. That is not fair. If you want to stay married, great. Don't put it now on your child that she has to feel guilty till her death that she destroyed her mother's life. That's not fear. That's not what a mother does. This was the mother responding to her own pain without looking inward. This is what happens when we are blindfolded, when we're deaf, when we don't deal with our emotions. I I am a little adamant about this because I know in my own life and I see in many other people's lives, when we are not ready to deal honestly with our emotions, we wreak havoc on the people we love most and we think it's about love. That mother thought she was the most loving person in the world. Look, I stayed with M. You're a father for you. You should give me the Nobel Prize for peace. My daughter should give me the Nobel Prize for peace cuz I gave her a beautiful home and a perfect family cuz I stayed with her crazy, insane, mishuga, raging, dysfunctional father just for her. Why is she not impressed with me? Why is she not impressed with me? This is what happens when we are so disconnected. Disconnected. I'm not even blaming. I'm not even judging her. She was in so much pain from her marriage. She was so dishonest with herself. She never looked at her own pain. She just threw it all on her children. But this is what we all have to realize. People need to take responsibility for themselves. Look inward. Look inward. Look what was happening inside of you and don't throw it on anybody else. >> Right. Take ownership. Exactly. And just to also add to the um the thing, I kind of also think that people have to remember that like your kid should are written way before you guys have a to you know what I mean? So it's like I just think people have to be a little bit more open and not just uh read a resume and be like, "Oh, divorced parents. No, that can't be for my child." Do you know what I mean? I just think it's it's that that part also. So, I mean, we could do a whole thing about the system this these days, but it's just it's just unfair. I don't know. The whole dynamic is unfair, but I I fully agree with you that if you can try to do it in a way that protects the kids and kind of protects your own sanity at a certain point, you know, you don't want to also go insane that you could potentially. >> Of course, that's the point. If you're going to be going insane, your kids are going to be the victims of your hatred towards each other. Don't don't put them through it. Don't put them through that crucible. >> Right. Right. I agree with you. Jacobson, this was amazing. >> You know, if you're going to be telling your kids every day, we hate each other and we're only here so that you get a good shak. So, you be quiet, you spoiled brat, because you're going to get a good sh because we're we're we're married to each other. And every kid would say, you know what? Go get divorced today. Oh, we'll worry about my >> I mean, that's what ended up happening with me. >> I got engaged. I got engaged 6 months after I came back from Arctis from seminary. Um my husband's from Bar Park totally uh functional normal family. Um and my parents kind of uh waited. I got engaged in January and my wedding was in June and my father gave the get to my mother 3 weeks before my wedding because he said, "Okay, now you're engaged now. Now now now I'll give over the get." I'm like I have two I have two other siblings by the way which they still got they're still fine but it was like what like first of all I didn't need your help I'm fine I like I met my person like Hashem and thank god my my husband's family is like so so amazing like I I am I really have such a bra with them and they were like okay like they did not care they they loved me and they didn't care and they thought I was a good match for their child and that's what it was but um yeah there there there's so much nuance within this and I think trying to give like a and people get upset at me when I won't give like a blinket answer to something I'm like how how do you want me to do that? How do you want me to just like you ask me a five a fiveword question? Do you stay together for the kids? How do you want me to answer that in like six words? It's not possible and every situation is different. But um Yway I really appreciate your time. And this was amazing and I really hope it helps a tremendous amount of people because I think this is what people needed to hear to be honest with you. They need to hear from somebody like you who sees it and understands and can say like it's okay. Not that it's acceptable, but if it has to happen, it can happen. It's okay. Do you know what I mean? >> Exactly. And I think um you know I feel that we're living in a generation where Hashem is inviting us into a much deeper relationship with him, with ourselves, with our spouses, with the world, and with all of our people. Like sometimes, you know, I think couples maybe 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago allowed things to happen and overlook them much easier than they do today. >> For sure. And some people say, "Oh, you know, people are entitled. They're more self-centered. They're more selfish. They're more busy with their emotions maybe." But I think it's I think it's much deeper and I think it's much more beautiful. I think, you know, as we get closer to redemption, guul says in Haya, it's an unbelievable prophecy. Hashem says, "On that day, you will stop calling me my my master. you're going to start calling me my fire, my husband, my passion. But articularly is so rash and other commentators say bi is like a master. Like you're the boss and I'm the subject. I ishi means you're like my partner is and isel. We're like one. So Hashem says our relationship is going to change from a relationship of control so to speak to a relationship of intimacy of of blissful oneness. And our marriages are reflections of our marriages with Hashem. So today really what people are looking for in a marriage is not just there's rules, there's a constitution, he's the husband, she's the wife, you do your thing, you do your thing, be quiet, you know, match them, hatch them, dispatch them. No, people are really looking for a deep, deep, meaningful relationship. I want to be able to experience the oneness. I want to be able to experience the trust. I want to be able to experience the safety. It's not out of duty. It's not out of fear of the repercussions. It's actually out of love. It's out of connection. There's there's a there's a there's a there's a be a beautiful experience in it. And I think that's really what our generation is is is begging for. They may say it in different words, but that's what people are begging for. Show us the path of vulnerability. Show us the path of how to build real emotional connection, real emotional resilience, and real emotional safety. And that takes a lot of inner hard and beautiful work. Right. >> So that's where we are. I agree with you. >> Thank you for your holy work, Lauren. >> Thank you so much. >> And guiding so many people >> and helping them and inspiring them and helping them navigate. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate >> the world of relationships. You have tremendous also in your personal life. >> Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Have a great night. >> This class is brought to you by the yeshiva.net. Please help us continue the classes. Make even a small contribution at ww.theshiva.net/donate.