What Every CEO Learns Too Late | Feat. Tzvi Schwartz

Most business owners, regardless of industry, the bigger a business gets, just the harder it becomes to like kind of wrap their arms around the whole thing, get everybody focused and everybody doing and they're trying all kinds of things. A lot of business owners and CEOs often have all these ideas in their head or all this what they think is clarity in their head and they're like, "How come nobody's like hearing what's in my head?" And like, "How come everybody isn't more into it and they're not doing their stuff?" And they're like, "We don't know. We're going this, we're doing this, we're going here, we're going there." And they don't realize that they're confusing their people. Our job is not to consult and tell the guy, "Well, here's how you should hire people." It's giving them the tools so they could figure out on their own like who really is the right person for the right seat. Capacity is the issue. Capacity is the one thing that could still be learned. People could gain experience. People could go to a class and learn a skill and learn a tool and and figure out how to be better. Every employee, the guy who sweeps the floor, also has to know what metric says, "I had a good day or I had a good week." Metrics usually come from processes. Motivation is pushing people. Very often people are getting to burnout and the boss is like I'll pay everybody 50 bucks extra if you stay late tonight. That works for a day. It's all about communication. If you have I mean think about like the tower of Bville over there like they didn't communicate and the whole thing fell apart. In unison is when they all to talk to each other very well. Everybody's kind of jing together feeling it together working together. It's all about people and it's all about communication. I mean that's that's everything. A lot of people are stuck holding on to their old way of doing things. Whatever they did that got us here, they did it the right way. They were doing the right stuff in business. Welcome to the Let's Talk Business podcast, a project of the PEX Group. Gain valuable, actionable ideas from the world's top business leaders to help you take the next step in your business journey. And now, here is your host, Manny Hoffman. Coming to you from the PEX headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. This is the podcast for no nonsense advice to help you learn, grow, and lead. Today, I'm so excited to welcome our guest and my good friend, Tui Schwarz. So he started out as a electrical contractor, turned that into a company with over 100 employees, and then made the bold decision to sell it out and go work for another company. What he learned after the sale surprised him and reshaped how he helps business owners today. We talked about the real things that stopped growth, what EOS did to help scale the company he worked for by 400%, and how leaders can build companies that work without them being in the middle of everything. If you're running a business that's grown fast but feels a little messy, this one is going to hit you home. Without further ado, here is my interview with Suie Schwarz. Thank you so much for joining me on the Let's Talk Business podcast. This is such a it's an honor among the names of the people who have been here before. Like when I got the call, I was like really? But thank you for inviting me. I uh with Hashem Sal do something good. Sure. So, um, for the people that don't know you and don't know what you do, um, I want you to bring us back to what you did in the previous life, so to speak, until you got into doing what you're doing today. Explain what you're doing today, and then we'll go into a a long conversation because I have a lot of questions prepared. Okay, no problem. So, the short version is by trade I'm an electrician. For many years, probably 17 or 18 years, I worked as an electrician. And I started as an apprentice working for a cl um um a a um cousin of mine and then I built up I didn't know what I was doing. I you know I knew how to install a light fixture and I knew how to install an outlet. So I decided oh I could run a business and I started my own business for many many years. It was up and down and good and bad and trying everything I can to make it work. Uh fast forward about like I said 17 years and I I actually was on a big big project that I was not ready to take on. A very very large hotel in Manhattan. Thankfully everything worked out in the end. We got it done. But thankfully also a company that uh I ended up kind of joining kind of bailed me out. They helped us close out the job and they invited us to say why don't you just join us and start working with us. And at the time when I really needed the help that was like a tremendous blessing for me I was like absolutely no problem. I wanted that and I was actually kind of curious. I was always curious what do they know that I don't know like why are they more successful? They've done so many big projects like was very curious to learn more about like what am I not doing right in this business and I I had a 100 people 125 people working for me like so it was it was a little bit stressful and crazy. So I ended up joining them in around 2015 and I joined them in operational kind of stuff. About a year into that, one of the owners got really curious about growing their business and he brought in Kesky Brisk who was uh I think the first Jewish EOS implement first from Jewish EOS implement and I was on the leadership team with them and you know skeptical in the beginning like all these programs and processes and like operating systems like okay I read a book we've seen this before and I was sitting on that side of the table as as a leader as a leader on the leadership team and we started to implement what is EOS. It's an operating system that helped us do a lot. I'm sure we'll get to that. And my job in the company was just to continue being one of the leadership team members. But it turned out that I had like a natural interest in the stuff that EOS is, all the different types of leadership things and the values and the goals and the mission. God gave me an ability to really understand this. So the owner kind of came to me and he's like, you know, you seem to really get this stuff. And he said, you know, we're a big company. We have three 400 people in the company. And he asked me, he's like, maybe we pause the work you're doing in like the sales and the marketing and the operations. Maybe you become like this in-house EOS guy. Work with work with the impletor who's helping us with the coach. Help us help us learn this stuff and do good because it's working. And I ended up doing that for about three four years. At first I was not I was like what you want me to be at EOS who and I was like all right I'll give it a try and I started to do it and I I really I fell in love with it. I was having so much fun with it but more importantly it was working. I was meeting all the people in the company at every level helping them implement really interesting tools to make the company healthier and better. And after doing that for a few years I got the itch. I was like you know I really enjoy this stuff. And I was actually helping collect friends on the side and I was like, I really think maybe I should try doing this uh again now between you and me. My wife said to me, she's like, are you out of your mind? She's like, you had a business for 178 years. It didn't always go so well. Like why would you you finally have a good thing going? You want to switch all that up and what are you crazy? I was like, no, no, trust me. You'll see. This is different. And Takash, it really was different. I ended up leaving. you were one of the first people I actually spoke to about it, which I'm sure will come up in a minute. And I took the plunge. It was scary as heck. I was like, "Oh my god, I'm going to do this." And I ended up starting to meet a lot of other business owners and companies. And I wanted to help them with all the things that I didn't know as an electrician. All the 17 years of I have no idea what I'm doing. Like throw this against the wall and see if it works. I was like, you know what? I really think I can make a difference. I can make I could help. And for the past almost six years now, I've been doing that Bar Hashem full-time. And man, what a journey it's been. It's it's it's crazy. It's fun. It's really fun. Got it. Yeah. I still remember that conversation actually in the same exact same room that we're in the same office that we're recording this podcast. And people always ask me, "Is this a studio that you're recording the podcast?" And then they show up in their office and say, "Oh, no. I see this is where the podcast is is happening." Yeah. In my office. I remember. Um Yeah. So, and we ended up actually u not only using you for a while, we actually um I think a couple of your client initial clients came through through relationships. Yes. Um so I want to go into some details about EOS. Um but for those who don't know anything about EOS, didn't go through the 90minut as you call it and understanding EOS, how describe it in the 60-cond version. Okay. It stands for entrepreneurial operating system, which basically means it's a it's not a data software system that most people might think that it is. It's a people system. Most business owners, regardless of industry, the bigger a business gets, just the harder it becomes to like kind of wrap their arms around the whole thing, get everybody focused and everybody doing and they're trying all kinds of things. EOS is a it's a basic system of how of of the leadership team and all the other teams in the company learning how to communicate, how to set their goals, how to set their vision, how to become more accountable, using similar terminologies, and just learning how to work together, learning how to listen to each other in order to ultimately make things flow better and solve issues and and kind of like helping the owner, the leadership team get their life back so they don't feel like they're always chasing their own tail. That's what it does. That's really what it is. It's a system of how they operate. Simple as that. Before we dive into this week's episode, I wanted to share an opportunity that many business owners are already taking advantage of. Now, we're about to wrap up Q1. If you're feeling stuck or unsure about your next move in your business, there's still time to turn things around. That's where a clarity session comes in. This is a focused onetime strategy session with me personally where we'll break down your biggest challenges, identify opportunities, and map out your best next steps for your business. You'll walk away with a clear action plan to move forward with confidence. Now, I want to make this clear from the get-go. This is not an ongoing consulting offer. You know your business best. This session is simply about giving you the clarity and direction you need to take action and make the rest of the year a success. Many entrepreneurs have already gained incredible value from those sessions. So don't miss out. Reach out to me now by emailing podcastgroup.com. I look forward speaking to you and seeing how I could bring more clarity to your business. Yeah. So one of the things like people always ask me like like when they speak about EOS and they ask me like what is the main benefits of working let's say with EOS and I think my version of it is that you go from I want to do this to we want to do this because as soon as as soon as we sign up we all sign up and we arrive to the same agenda what we want to do it becomes a we and if it becomes a wei all of a sudden we hold each other accountable because we all agree that this is what we want to do. Yeah, you're making such a really interesting point. A lot of business owners and CEOs often have all these ideas in their head or all this what they think is clarity in their head and they're like how come nobody's like hearing what's in my head and like how come everybody isn't more into it and they're not doing their stuff and they're like we don't know we're going this, we're doing this, we're going here, we're going there and they don't realize that they're confusing their people. But once you get everybody to see and feel what you were just describing as like we all going there and it's good for all of us. Everybody just think of it like a boat. Everybody just starts to row together instead of everybody just going in totally different directions and it creates like this flow that's smooth and it's it's it's magic when it works. Got it. Okay. So I I want to go into some details. Um, and I have some a bunch of follow-up questions that I want to ask you, but I think I I I just do want to mention to our listeners the same thing that we that we spoke off air before we started recording, which is EO EOS is a phenomenal system for businesses and we'll go into details and see I'm going to pick your brain as far as are the companies not ready too early stage so to speak or too late in the game to a EOS system or too big for EOS system. But for our listeners, I want you to understand if you have if you heard of EOS or you have your uh opinions about EOS. Today's conversation is not about um selling EOS. It's about understanding what it takes to grow a business. And I want you to take note of how we're going to speak about leadership, how we're going to speak about growth, scalability, and so on and so forth as far as general. And EOS is a system for sure, one of the larger systems out there to help you get there. But ultimately the goal of the conversation is to learn from this conversation as far as what you could do for your business in order to be able to grow it. So let's let's start a little bit of is there a stage now I know like if somebody starts off a new company they'll they'll they'll develop a business plan. Okay, I think a pager, five pages, but they're solo entrepreneurs at that stage probably they're probably too early to to develop to use any type of system on growth. Uh question is at which point do you feel what's happening in the company that they say you know what they can't do with it hashbatch like they can't just do it and wing it they need to create a system around it. Great question. So there's some science and data around this. It's not obviously 100% given and I remember from when I was a small business and I'm sure you remember when you were also once upon a time in the beginning stages of a business think about like the book the E-Myth you know where he talks about these ideas it's like single business owner bakery kind of a thing and it's like one person wearing many many many hats obviously for affordability reasons they're not ready to hire more people and there's a certain energy for a small business owner where like they could just burn the midnight oil and push harder and do the six days a week whatever whatever it takes in order to get stuff done. Slowly, they start to bring on one, two, three, four more employees over a little bit of time. And they could, like I said before, they could kind of keep their arms around it. They're driven because it's exciting. It's nerve-wracking because, you know, they're trying to grow something, but like they they they have some form of a grip and some form of a vision and they're just getting it done. But it happens when they start hitting 8 to 10 employees usually is what science has proven where it just starts to get away from them. they start to lose control because there's just too many people there. It's not this startup small business anymore. All of a sudden, there's a lot going on and there's a lot of things that aren't as easy to control and they start to lose a little bit of control and then and then they start to lose a little bit of sleep and then they lose a lot of time and all of a sudden before they know it, they're hiring extra people because they have to make deadlines and it just starts to snowball and it gets away from them. So, usually that point in time, it's not about a money thing. It's more about how many people do they have to start managing or making sure that they're those people are doing their jobs. That's where usually it gets away from it. And something like EOS would be really really helpful to them. So they could learn it's not all on one person's shoulders to figure all that out and do all of that and they could start to realize maybe I should build a team and maybe we should create more clarity and that starts to help them manage and run their business better. That's usually where it starts to happen. Mhm. Is there is there a stage of a business that you would say that they're probably too big or grown too um um too wide let's say for for a EOS um system. Also a interesting question in the EOS world they'll they'll often say you know that any company between 10 to 250 employees is really the sweet spot where these systems will definitely work but that doesn't mean that beyond 250 employees it won't work. You have to modify. You have to turn some of the dials a little bit and adjust. But the concepts of what it really is can still work. I have people that I work with that have 1500, 2,000, 3,000 employees in the company, and it works just fine. Arguably, we haven't rolled it all the way out to that level yet, but the concepts can still be done. It's a little bit harder as it gets bigger. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, but it absolutely uh will make a huge impact on any company. I would even say even up to the 500 person mark where a lot of these pieces could still work very very well. Got it. By now you have worked with hundreds of business owners um in in companies that you've been um rolling out in and in in EOS. Um I bet you there is times where you get into the room um with an entrepreneur and the leadership team and you see it right right there and then that this leader will not change and and regardless which system we're going to put in place it's not going to work and maybe you wait it out a week a month a quarter whatever it is at one point you find yourself exactly what your gut feeling told you. describe that leader. All those leaders, look, they're all good people. They're very driven. Obviously, they have a big vision and big belief. The problem is they're not they're usually not willing to be honest with themsel or vulnerable and admit their weakness. Maybe they're afraid to admit weakness because they think, "Oh, if I look weak, you know, my people won't listen to me or trust me." Or maybe they have their own belief system that's just something they never developed. And they don't realize that they don't know everything. They're not open-minded. And they don't realize the stuff that got us here won't get us there. They're usually not it. They're not ready. And they often are the bottleneck. I often like to have, oh, here I have a bottle of beer. Where's the bottleneck on every bottle? I always say the bottleneck is always at the top. And it's ironic because like I'm trying to have this leader understand if if we work on some of these things which means exposing some of their bad decisions or or people moves that they made that didn't work well. It's going to be painful. But if you do that we could fix the pain, remove the pain and make it better. But they're so afraid to go there and they're hardworking and they're just they're just not ready to let go. And you you can't force anybody to do that. And and if if they're not ready, it won't work. it. I don't care how badly the rest of the team wants it or how badly they want the results, it it just won't work. One of the things that um it's known for EOS or any type of system to that to that degree is a lot of times they find out that you had people on maybe on the right bus but in the wrong seats. Um and and what could you share about that? Meaning to say, how do you identify a person that's good for the company but in the wrong seats? So yeah, a lot of the companies when they're doing the hiring process, they're either usually hiring people that they know from their neighborhood or they know from their community or like they knew a guy who was once good with numbers in school like oh let's make him the accountant like you know we'll figure it out and they have this we'll figure it out mentality and it doesn't usually work. As an EOS implement and by the way all EOS impleers and coaches our job is not to consult and tell the guy well here's how you should hire people. It's giving them the tools so they could figure out on their own like who really is the right person for the right seat. Right person we could come to in a minute, but you asked about the right seat. Right seat means that if I'm going to give you a job I want to delegate to you. Let's say, you know, you're obviously brilliant at marketing and sales. So if I ever start a company, I will hire you to be the that guy. But how do I know you're really the right guy? We use a simple formula that I'll I'll design what what is what does good look like? Before I hire you, I'm going to first think if I really want to this to go well and I want to delegate where I don't want to do the job. I want you to do the job. I would ask myself, what would I want this person to be accountable for? What would I want them to take full ownership of that they should be good at that I won't feel like I have to micromanage them? I won't feel like I have to babysit them. I could give them resources and kind of take my hands off and say go do it. I would look at first I would build what are the roles I want them to do and then I would ask myself about the person I have in mind. Does that person truly get what this seed is now? Getting it in my opinion means if you look at the five or six major roles of a seat, getting it means this person genetically was born to do that kind of work. Getting it means they look at the roles that you created and they see between the lines. They see what you didn't even think of. They know exactly what questions to ask. They're like they just they get it. But it's not enough that they get it. They have to actually want it. Wanting it usually means if they get it and they love asking questions, wanting it means they love looking for the answer. Wanting it means this is fun. I enjoy this stuff. Like Warren Buffett once said, "What would you do if you didn't need the money? I would do this anyway because it's interesting. It really talks to me." A person who wants it, not wants the paycheck that comes with the seat. Everybody wants the money, but they want to do the work. It's interesting. They always will look for answers and they'll take more ownership, but it's not enough. They also have to have the capacity. If you put a person in a seat who gets it and wants it but they never did the seat before or they have no experience to bank on or emotionally, physically, mentally they have no ability to own what's going to be required, it won't work. So if you GWC is what we would say gets it, wants it and has the capacity, odds of you having success with that person are phenomenal. If anything less than that and you're going to end up doing their job for them. I remember in our company um when we did this exercise um first of all it's the first time that usually when you sit with a leadership um team that you become vulnerable and the people around you are pretty open and honest and I I think it's a very important point because I remember one of our conversations where the person in the room said I get it I just don't want it I don't need that pressure I don't want even if it comes with rewards let me stick to what I do what I've done and maybe hire somebody and let that person be my my manager, my leader. And it's it's it's it was an eye openening thing because we're not trained that way. We're trained that oh because that person is the longest in the company, they probably have to be promoted to that seat, but it it comes with responsibility. And guess what? Not everybody wants that responsibility or you said has the capacity for their responsibility. And I think that's is a very important point because that's where you could have somebody and says, "Oh, you know, our sales is not we're not hitting our targets in sales." And guess what? You took your best salesperson, you made him sales manager, but the capacity of a sales manager is so different than a sales man, you know? So, you could be the best salesperson and have the largest portfolio of customers, whatever it is, but you're still not good as a sales manager. Yes. I I that's what I referenced earlier when I saying about electrician. I was very good at installing ceiling fans. That has nothing to do with managing an electrical contracting company. I know what I was doing. Many for many years I had no idea I was doing. I was like learning and reading books and trying and I was lost. And capacity means that I could take full ownership and I actually can achieve the results of what this seat requires. Now it's worth mentioning if if you have if anybody out there they're listening to this like I have people on my team they kind of get it. wanted. But capacity is the issue. Capacity is the one thing that could still be learned. People could gain experience. People could go to a class and learn a skill and learn a tool and and figure out how to be better. The question then begs for the owner or the leader of that team to ask, do we have enough time and patience to let this guy learn on the job and then the company like this isn't a school. We're not it's not a yeshiva. The person has to do the job today. Imagine you were went to a hospital and the doctor was like, "Look, I'm learning like yeah, I don't want to work with that guy." What would be why would be in your different my business we don't want people that don't know what they're doing. If you have a training program you could help them gain the capacity that will work but getting in and wanting it are always dealillers. That's either it's yeses or nos. There's no in between on that. Yeah. And it's also important because I found like and I I remember in the early um um you know when we did the leaders forum and for our listeners we're probably going to be bringing back some of those leaders for based on demand. Good stuff. Yeah. So this is you know for our listeners just quickly a plug. Leaders Form is a one-day training in our office just giving you a playbook of what we've seen other companies use in order to grow their companies. So I remember one of the one of the times that we were we had we I spoke to one of the one of the people that were the attending and and at when it came lunch he came into my office and he was very worked up and and basically he started crying and he was explaining that that he's so far from from you know he's at one place his his his his employees are so diff so diff disconnected from where they want to be and and and and they're just not on the same page and and and and it bothered me at the time because I said like why don't you communicate it? It says I keep on thinking that I did but but somehow he you know my employees are not just not getting my vision. They're not getting where I want to be and and everybody you know what what ends up happening such a day everybody goes away unhappy. Um so being on the say same page uh with your employees and understanding where we're going. So go back to the the reason I'm mentioning this point is speaking about capacity. Now if your business if you're a leader owner of a company and you're expecting capacity to be at 100%. And the guy that was hired thinks I'm already at 50% but I'm making progress. You could think you're making progress. The the the person paying your paycheck is thinking you know this guy is not just is not cut for it. He's not made for the job. And that that's something that if we know that you're not there with capacity, but we're willing to train you, then great for everybody. But not knowing where you are, that's what sometimes is the the biggest killer in a company. 100% I agree. And managers will often I like to say, think of it this way. Imagine you're watching a baseball game, right? And you have a guy out there playing on the field and he's playing the best that he can. And the manager is yelling at him like, "Come on, man. Do better. Do better." And he's like, "What do you mean? I thought we're winning. like you said, I thought we're doing good. Because if there's no scoreboard to tell you, are we winning or losing? And there's no way to measure like did I do what I was supposed to do. We're just assuming based on like you said, whatever is in your head is what we'll measure as whether I'm doing my job or not. There has to be a way to measure. Every employee in a company, not just as a leader, every employee, the guy who sweeps the floor also has to know what metric says I had a good day or I had a good week. It's not because management wants to micromanage them. The person themsself, in order for them to fully own their job, they have to know, well, what metric says I'm doing good or I'm not. So, they could self-manage. I have an interesting thing that happened. I think it's worth mentioning. It's so interesting. I was working with the team and we were building some of these measurables and metrics for the people on the team. When it came to the receptionist, receptionist, okay, they answer the phone, you know, like what what could the metric be? And they were trying to figure out like what should we measure? what says the receptionist is doing a good job and I we had this epiphany of understanding it's not just knowing how often you do something it's also understanding what is the ROI that the company gets from having this person so when it came to the receptionist we were thinking what I don't know what should we measure how many times she picks up the phone how many times she opens the door like what if nobody came like just practice opening the door I did it 20 times today boss did I do good no obviously that's foolish that's crazy so we started to ask ourselves what is the reason why we need this receptionist So we realize her job is to answer the phone which means when people call in she has to connect them to somebody. Somebody walks in the front door there her his or her job is to connect them to somebody inside. If there's an email in the inbox she has to make sure we we realize what should we measure. We should measure not just how many times did she answer the phone doesn't tell us anything. How how many of the connections that she is supposed to make actually went through and got connected. So she started to realize the metric shouldn't be how many times I answer the phone. The metric should be if I made a hundred uh I passed 100 messages on this week or 100 emails I don't know how many of them actually connected to the point where she's not just checking a box saying I did my job not my problem which is no ownership she started to follow up with people and started to say did you get my message did you call the guy back not as a manager but just she's like look my job is to make sure you that I connected you to this person did you guys connect she started to own it and because of her sales in the company went up they because she started started to make sure people actually were getting back to people which means every seat needs to understand what what metric says not just that I'm doing the work I'm doing which is also important but that I'm successful at this that whatever the company is needing me to accomplish I'm accomplishing it and then they could own it and they could put their own fingerprints on it and make it really interesting and imagine if everybody in the company thought that way and did that. Could you imagine what it would look like in a company and it's so doable but like you said it's all in the owner's head and he's not sharing it and very powerful very powerful not only that is is what you're also doing you're connecting what a single reception is how they she can make a difference in the company's growth 100% everybody could so it's that leader's job I just want to say it's the leader's job figure out to show everybody the we like you said earlier everybody's needed there's not a single person here that's excess or extra and showing everybody where they fit in And without you, the whole flow stops. So people can understand not just what I'm doing, but everybody around me is counting on me. Everybody. Got it. So you mentioned scorecards and I and I I want to mention this because this is a very important point regardless if you want to work on with EOS or you had to work with EOS or or you're doing any other system. Um one one of the pet peeves that I have is um most of the time you speak to a business leader and you start asking any metrics, he says I have to ask my bookkeeper. uh because this typical metrics means financial numbers and usually that's not on on any you know tip of the tongue so to speak for a leader. However, scorecards and the and the purpose of that is that as a leader, you're moving your business forward. And moving a business forward, you always have to know what is the key metrics, scorecard numbers that you if you have it at your fingertip, you'll know how the business the pulse of the business as you mentioned. And I think it's very important regardless how big of a company you have and if you have your in in-house CFO, controller, bookkeeper, accounting, whatever, whatever departments you have to take care of finances. I don't think there's an a leader that's exempt from knowing some metrics that are actually the driving force for the growth of the company. And and and it could change also by seasons. Those scorecards could change where the company is holding. I remember working once with an Amazon business which is e-commerce uh um you know marketplace and some at one point the growth the you know the metrics were all about the growth and at one point it changed all about the net profit and on our margins so and sometimes it could be a combination of both and especially companies that have multiple targets multiple divisions and so on and so forth. So I want I want to hear from you what type of advice you could give for any business owners listening to this when it comes to metrics. How do they define what's the most important because we tend to over complicate things and what ends up happening is we get so excited about starting to track. So now we're tracking too many things. Oh yeah. Okay. So give us a little bit of of of your expertise when it comes to setting up proper metrics. So before you so one of the things that's important to in order to set the tone I think that there's three pieces to getting to good metrics. First you have to ask yourself who's on this team. It's not just the finance people and then the sales guys do their own meeting and the operations guy. You usually have a team let's call it at the leadership level of a handful of people. I'll ask the owner who are the five or six people that you need around that table every week that need to talk to each other work together. You need to report to them. They need to report to you about everything that's happening in the business that gets from the beginning of a customer's experience from the the phone rings all the way to the customers totally happy everything worked out well which is not limited to any one department. So first you have to ask yourself are all the right people sitting here? Those people then ask themselves a question what's like I said before what is a good week for us as the leadership team which means individually each person is accountable for one of these seats. Usually if like you said there's a finance person and there's a salesperson there's one or two operational people maybe there's an HR person or marketing person five or six of those kind of different seats that are sitting there I've noticed a lot of companies struggle to figure out I don't know what to measure metrics usually come from processes I've noticed that if each seat has clear understanding of what am I accountable for in operations my job is to make sure everything runs on time and all the customer relation issues are being dealt with in sales I'm making, you know, enough prospecting leads are coming in. I'm negotiating and closing enough deals. Each person looks at what are their major roles that they're accountable for, which is usually a process that they follow of how how do I do what I do? How do I make sure it works? We look at the process that the person does and ask what metric says that this process worked. If I'm accountable for operations and operations means that everything got out the door on time or everything Amazon like like you said before, there were no returns or nothing ended up in the wrong place. So the metric would be two pieces. Proactively in the beginning of the process, what proactivity do we need to do that's going to result in everything working well? What is a leading number? Like for example in sales, how many phone calls do I make that ultimately leads to a close? Did you make 25 phone calls this week? Did you do the activity? But the end of the process which also is on the on the scorecard is and and what were the results of that? So each of these individual people have to ask themselves do I understand what processes are most important for my comp my department to work and how do we measure that the process worked if they think that way they will usually come up with one or two metrics that highly says the beginning of the process worked which means we're doing enough activity and the end of the process worked which means the result we wanted came through. That's usually where it comes from. But if you don't do that pre-work of who belongs in the meeting, what am I accountable for, what my processes are, then we're just randomly coming up with numbers and you end up like you said with 35 metrics and nobody even knows who owns them. Nobody even knows why are we even looking at this stuff and it just absolute waste of time. Less is more. Yeah. I'll just add one more piece to it which I found with time which is that if you see a number and if the number is good or bad and you don't know what to do with that number, that means probably it's not the right metric that you're tracking. Either that or we don't know who's accountable for that number. Exactly. Sometimes you should know. You mentioned finance. Let's say finance is reporting a few numbers like you know these are uh the billings that we did this week. The finance guy is just reporting like he's like I'm not responsible for the fact that you and the operations didn't do enough work that we could bill. I'm just showing you the owner like look these are your numbers but I don't own he owns that. He owns the result of that. So it's not just who's doing the reporting of the number. It's who owns the result of that number. And very often it's not the person doing the reporting of the number, it's some other department that owns the result that caused that number. Mhm. Very cool. So I want to ask you a follow-up question to this is um a lot of times you could see um you know you could work with the leadership team and they're going to be in the room, they'll do the work, but somehow they got to call you or call anybody when it comes to they need support is because there is some sort of burnout. You know there's a certain burnout. They've tried it. The company's just hit it, you know, hit some sort of um um you know, flat flat surface, so to speak, and they don't know where where they're going with it. How do you make sure that because the end of the day, it's not it's it's putting more work on the people, not less work on the people. So, they need to be at full capacity as you mentioned before. How do you how do you unite back the that um that passion or take them out of that burn burnout zone? So I find like let's ask a question. What in what I'm really burnout usually comes from either somebody doing the wrong work that just isn't inspiring, isn't motivating. They're like after a while like it was interesting in the beginning, but now I'm just totally not feeling it. Which often means the person's in the wrong seat like this is just not work that talks to them. But as a team collectively, I hear what you're saying. Sometimes they feel burnt out. So let's what motivate what I think there's a big there's a big difference between motivation and inspiration. Motivation is pushing people. Very often people are getting to burnout and the boss is like, "I'll pay everybody 50 bucks extra if you stay late tonight." That works for a day. And even the reason that doesn't work always is because tomorrow when you need them to stay again if you don't pay them the 50 bucks, they're like, "Forget it. I'm going home." Motiv that's motivation. Inspiration's different. Motivation is lighting a fire under them. Inspiration is lighting a fire on the inside, getting them excited. I find people get burnt out when they don't have clarity of the vision of where they're trying to get to. I'll give you an example. Many let's pretend you're you're on a plane going to Artisel or Australia long plane ride and you're sitting in a back of the plane in a middle seat between a fat person and a crying baby. You're going to get burnt out pretty fast. In the beginning you'll be like it's exciting to get on the airplane. After two hours you're going to be like I don't want to be here. What keeps you sitting there and saying I could do this. I could do this. I could do this because you know when we get there it's going to be amazing. I'm going to go here. I'm going to go there. I love where we're going. Having a vision of this is what we're doing, but this is where we're going keeps people focused on let's keep going. Let's do more because they see the reward, the results, the great life that's coming with it. If there is no vision of like everybody just do your job and you'll get paid and stop complaining, burnout comes very very quickly because there's there's no inspiration. Nobody's working towards something bigger, greater. They're just doing enough to not get fired and they're just checking a box and like leave me alone. Burnout comes from usually just not having that future vision clear or not being excited about it or never getting there because it's not realistic. Hey listeners, are you struggling to create beautiful looking proposals? Is it a hassle every time you need to prepare a quote or proposal for your clients? Is collecting signatures still a manual process? Well, it's time to upgrade to Panda. At PEX, we use Panda for all our proposals, employee documentation, and so much more. It saves us time, keeps everything organized, and our documents look incredibly professional. With customizable templates, real-time collaboration, and e signatures, Panaduct turns creating documents into quick and easy steps. Plus, it integrates with so many other tools, streamlining your workflow and boosting productivity. Try Panoduct today by visiting pex.co/panded and start your free trial. Trust me, it's going to be a gamecher for your business. That's pex.co/pan. co/pan da d o c. One of the things that we see a lot of companies die or thrive is by good communication. Um obviously um there's a lot to say and unpack about good communication. What are some some some basic habits traits that you would encourage leaders or you've seen through the EOS system or just leaders in general that they're great communicators or they they have communication down path. So I mean aside from like obviously people naturally being very good at explaining things or doing things well I find that when a company uses common language I don't mean like Hebrew and English and Yiddish. I mean common language about the work that they're doing. when they share a common vision, let's say they have a set of values that they all agree or the set of, you know, in EOS we use terms like rocks and to-dos and then other companies call it OKRs and and data points. And when you have common language, it's almost like you could sign language with the other person and they're like, "Oh, I get you. I get you. I get you." Communication very often comes from people having clarity through that common language of a lot of what an operating system could do. But beyond that, obviously, communication, like you said, goes very, very deep into understanding how to listen very well. One of the things I actually found that I think is a is a little bit of a interesting communication trick. And in the beginning, it felt a little hokey. I won't lie to you. I was like, really? We're going to do that? But people ask, "What are the two emotions that you're feeling right now?" Very often, communication is a style of not just telling somebody what to do, but it's it's two people learning how to solve issues together and listen to each other and work together. When people say, "Well, I had it with a client who was sitting right here at this table, and he the owner couldn't express what he was trying to say, and he really needed to say, so I asked him,"What are the two emotions you're feeling right now?" He's like, "I'm feeling really frustrated, and I'm feeling really uh nervous." And that started to open the door towards what's making you frustrated. And then he started to unpack what he was feeling. Very often we're feeling things and we're thinking things, but we just can't express it. But when you're able to verbalize what you're feeling, very often it lends to the right words to choose of let me express what I'm trying to say. People are afraid to talk about the emotions that they're feeling or the concepts ultimately they just get stuck making up a whole lot of nothing in order to really get their point across. There's a lot of different methods. We could talk about three hours just on communication. Correct. But obviously communication is key for a healthy environment. Imposs you know what it's all about communication. And if you have I mean think about like the tower of Bville over there like they didn't communicate and the whole thing fell apart. But in unison is when they all to talk to each other very well everybody's kind of jing together feeling it together working together. It's all about people and it's all about communication. I mean that's that's everything. Got it. What would you say um um some of the you know when you meet with companies um obviously you have a lot of clients and you have clients that graduated the EOS um um system or using an outside implement. Um what would you say sets apart companies that have seen it through the finish line while companies that had to drop it in the middle or in anything in between? What are the what are the the dos and don'ts so to speak? Um, a lot of it starts obviously with that that open-minded feeling like we were talking about in the beginning. Any company is going to grow and they're going to hit a ceiling. They're going to get stuck. Every time that you grow and you grow and, you know, you hit a ceiling and you need to get to through to the next level, they have to be healthy enough to talk about like, you know, what does it look like to get to the next level? And a lot, like we said earlier, a lot of people are not willing to be honest about the fact that maybe some of the people that used to be good at this are not going to ultimately get us there. And I think it's interesting. I heard a very interesting analogy that I think will really set this up. Imag there was a guy running for his life, right? He was running through the forest and uh something was chasing him. I don't know. He comes to this big river on a very stormy day and he start and he he can't just jump in and swim. He'll drown. So he builds like a raft. He takes some twigs and branches and ties it all up and and now he's like going to kind of like paddle his way to the other side. Now that he's on the other side, he's running again. Now that he's running, he's dragging this raft with him. Now, why is he dragging the raft with him? For two reasons. First of all, what if I need it again? I I I don't want to throw it away. But more importantly, there's a lot of pride of I built this thing. This was my raft. And he's now trying to run for his life again. And he's trying to climb mountains and trees, but he's now dragging this giant raft. The very thing that saved his life is now the thing that's killing him. A lot of people are stuck holding on to their old way of doing things. It whatever they did that got us here, they did it the right way. They were doing the right stuff in business. They did hiring your brother was the right idea at the time or hiring your cousin was a great idea. But when you get to this next level, it's not that that was wrong. What got us here won't get us there. Now you're dragging the wrong people and the wrong systems and they're too afraid of evolving. They're too afraid of admitting I don't know the answer to this. In order to get to the next level, we need a different way of thinking. We need new tools or maybe even new people sometimes. The ones who are honest with that and the ones who are willing to like work with it and keep learning and growing are the ones that la they do so well. The ones that just stay stuck because I don't want to drop this raft are the ones who end up killing themselves because they're just not ready to let go of the old way of doing things. It's so true. I remember years ago I was uh attending an event the a company that we had we had some sort of partnership and a very successful company a large company and it was right after um the CEO let go of a couple of of sea level executives and swapped them out and he was on stage and he said you know I I want to share with you the news you probably heard that we let go of this guy that guy and we want to we'll forever be grateful for what they contributed to the company but what got us to 10 million will not get us to 50 million and what got us to 50 million will not get us to 100 million. And he said, "If I'm not going to involve from here on, you might come back next year and find a different CEO." Yeah. Because the board will fire me as well because they need somebody. Which brings me to the point is that it's it's a it's a it's a twofold. One is sometimes those people will not get you there or you have a hungry individual that'll say, "I'll do whatever it takes. I'll learn. I'll expand myself." And as Dave Ramsey says, a business will ne never outgrow its leader. So if you want to if the company is growing faster than you are growing personally, you can't be that leader because you're going to, you know, hold back the company from growth. So I think it's a very important point and sometimes the nicest thing of a leader is to know I think I need help. I can't get to the next level. I need to bring in somebody. I need to trust my leadership team better. and and again you have to do it in the right timing and also the right ways and the right interviewing the people but I think it's a very important point because sometimes we we become our worst enemies us I'm saying our leaders us leaders become our worst enemy because we feel that pride of building the company as you mentioned the story and it and and it's it's so true in business every single day humility you're what you're really describing is humility a a leader has to be extremely humble I mean Patrick Lencion he talks all about that kind of stuff it's the leader who is too prideful, who is ultimately, and it sounds crazy because he's going to end up, pardon me for saying it this way, he's going to he's screwing himself because he's the beneficiary of the business running well. He'll make more money, he'll have a better life, but he's so stuck on I have to be right. I have to be the man. And he himself or she is not evolving. And they are the reason for their own downfall sometimes. And it's so painful to watch that happen. So our job is to try to guide them, give them the tools so they could ultimately learn. And if they want all their people to also evolve, then they have to be the epitome of evolution. If they don't do it, all their leaders are like, "So, let me get this straight. You want me to keep evolving and changing, but you get to keep being the same way?" And then you lose all your people and you lose your trust with them, and it just doesn't work. So, it hinges. That's why the CEO, by the way, and for right for rightful reasons, makes more money than them. He or she has to carry the burden of all of that and be a leader, which means leader. You asked about leadership. What is the definition of a leader? A leader is a person who is going somewhere that other people want to follow you. They believe in you. They not that they have to follow you. That's a dictator. A leader is I'm going there who wants to come with me. Which means he or she's able to show the way and lead by example to the point that people are like I like this guy. I want to follow this guy. And that's a very very big responsibility. Beautiful. Um let's um we're getting uh close to the end. Um, time flies by when we speak to you. Um, leave us with maybe um, maybe there's a story or maybe there's a a something that you've seen a an epiphany within a company that maybe they were all over the place. They they initiated EOS or in general like the stuff that we discussed today and they found the harmony of of working together as a team has brought them to you know either major growth or other things within a company. That is a very good question. Like an epiphany that a company might have had like a turning point kind of a thing. Um I have a it's interesting. I have a client that I work with where he has a brother or he has a brother that was on his team and we were working on their core values and we were trying to make sure that these values of like what's really considered the right person to work here? What kind of attitude means this person is going to be a good fit for us? And we all knew over time that his brother who is a very hard worker, very smart person and a very good person, just the attitude, the values, it just it wasn't lining up. But he was with him for a long time. It's his brother. Without getting into the whole depth of how he got there, he was forced to make a decision. And he said, "My brother has to be just as accountable as anybody else." And he he ended up obviously helping his brother, but he had to let him go. And I still remember the day we were sitting with leadership team. Because most people thought like, "Oh, that'll never happen." You know, he's his brother. He's never going to do that. And he said, "Everybody's going to live by these rules. I'm going to live it. We're all going to live by it." And he ended up asking his brother to leave. When the employees of the company saw that he's for real, which means he was willing to sacrifice and let go of even his own kin because he truly believed in the vision. He truly believed in the values with no compromise. Everybody's like, "Wow, this guy's for real." And when he was for real, everybody started to say, "Well, if he's going to be that sincere and genuine, I'm going to be also." And that's that was a turning point. Values and mission and goals and all that leadership stuff. It all works, but there's going to get a point where it's going to become very painful where you're going to be faced with that true decision. And if you're going to compromise on your values and compromise on your vision because you're going to look the other way, you're going to lose everybody. They're going to be like, "Oh, so all this vision stuff was just nonsense." Because when push came to shove, I'll look the other way for money. I'll look the other way for a good deal. I have a client, by the way, who was doing so well. He even sold his company for multi for very large multiple. But the problem is he sold it to a a PE firm that is now destroying the company. He cashed out for himself. God bless him. He made a lot of money. He ended up hurting his leaders. All the people that believed him of like, you know, we will be taken care of this and he had they were bleeding for him. He let them down. And I'm very disappointed in him for doing that because look, I'm not here to judge. He made a lot of money. But if if you're if you compromise your values and your beliefs for a dollar or for something else, then none of that stuff is real. It's the people who are authentic even when it hurts that ultimately rallies everybody together. they feel the pain together and and and it shows by example the leader of this is how we do it. So that moment's going to come in everybody every leader's life where they're going to be faced with that difficulty. If you could if you believe in what you are the simple truth of who you really are and what you believe and you're willing to to stay authentic, which means sometimes taking a little bit of a loss or hurting a little bit, it speaks volumes and it it gets your people to see you're for real. That's real leadership and that's usually a major turning point in a company. Don't compromise for like the quick buck or for the little thing. Long-term big thinking. Have a bigger vision. Believe in it and get your people to want to go there with you. And it means it's going to be difficult, but it's going to be amazing though. Beautiful. So, how could people find out more about you and what you do? Uh, they could definitely find me on LinkedIn. Um, look me up on Schwarz on LinkedIn. I'm um I have a uh website. I mean, I guess I could uh forward it to you. They could find me at my thrivability.com. my thrivability.com. There's a lot of information there or you could go to the EOS world EOS worldwide website and if you do search for implement and you type in my name all that contact information will come through and I'd love to have a conversation with you whoever you are. Sure. For the links resources mentioned this episode check out the show notes at www.pexgroup.commpodcast where we'll link to find out more about Sui and follow him on LinkedIn. Let's close with the four rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Go for it. Number one, a book that changed your life. Good to Great by Jim Collins. H best. Phenomenal book. And number two, a piece of advice you got that you never forget. Piece of advice. Um, don't take yourself too seriously. That's cool. Number three, anything you wish you could go back and do differently? Everything. How in life can I go? The truth is, you can't I have no real regrets. I've learned a lot and I learned a lot from the lessons of the things I've went through a lot and I've made a lot of mistakes but I learned from them. Beautiful. And last and final question, what's still on your bucket list to achieve? I want I'm I'm ready to buy a business again. I didn't think I'd be I it was very hard for me, but now that I know what I know and I know who I know, I know all the right who's I'm actually ready to start getting into owning the business, not just coaching the business owner. Very cool. Sweet. Thank you so much for joining us. I know your time is valuable. That is why in the name of our listeners, we'll forever be grateful for sharing some of your time with us today. Thank you. Everybody a lot of hot and success. Thank you so much, Ben. So good seeing you again. Likewise. Thank you. That's my conversation with Suie Schwarz. My takeaway from this one. Number one, growth without structure burns people out. So we learned the hard way. You can grow fast, but without systems, it just creates chaos. You need structure if you want to scale and stay sane. Number two, most owners wait too long to fix things. The sign are always there. Overwhelm, frustration, turnover, but many owners ignore them. Su says face them early and things won't fall apart later. Number three, the right team makes or breaks growth. It's not about hiring a players. It's about putting people in the right seats and holding them accountable to clear expectations. Number four, EOS isn't magic. It's discipline. The system works, but only if you work it. So he shared how weekly meetings, scorecards, vision alignment completely change their results. And number five, you can actually enjoy your business again. If you're constantly in the weeds, there's a better way. Sui helps owners to step up, lead better, and get back to the parts they love. And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Let's Look Business podcast. I hope you enjoyed the practical, nononsense advice that our guest shared. If you found value in listening, I would be so grateful if you could share the episode with your friends and if you could give the show a five-star rating on Apple Podcast or wherever platform you listen. Subscribe to the show and get notified every time we publish a new episode. The Let's Talk Business Podcast is a PEX Group original production. Until next time, make it a great day. [Music]