Aryeh Leib Hurwitz INTERVIEW Yamim Nora'im Special - The P'nimius Podcast with Uziel Naparstek

A new [singing] [music] [singing] welcome. Welcome to the various podcast where we interview those that entertained us in our childhood. All right, here we are with in time for Rashashana Kipper and Sukus. Uh we are recording this actually before Ashashana, so it's perfect timing to talk to one of the biggest well-known Khazins in the 21st century. I would say a Kazen Arya le Horowitz also is a Kazen but also he's a well-known singer and he sings in gigs and also is very involved in the charity campaign which I have a lot of questions about also uh very uh get to know him. So welcome Caner or Kazen how do we call you? >> Ar how you doing? >> Good good thanks for having me on. This is very exciting. >> Yes. Um so let's go back to the beginning on your childhood and your background and a little bit how you got into the love of music and Kazanas. >> Yeah. So I grew up in Crown Heights. Um Kabad family, you know, the whole nine yards. Um my my father's uh mother's family was very musical and uh my grandma used to sing um her father was a musician her entire family musical um and I don't like my father wasn't a kazan or anything was a baltak knew a davin but it wasn't like you know any any or anything but um my family my you know My brother sings. He's a wedding singer. Sings every night. He's a Kazan. So my my other brother is Davin. My sisters are all at parts and choirs, you know. So they're all very musical. Um and uh you know, so from from the beginning, we'd sing a lot um Shabas at the Shabas table. Um so growing up, you know, music was definitely a very big part um of everything we did. In camp, I joined some choirs actually. um the choir uh we did in in camp for like visiting day. So the one of the there were like three staff members running it. Um one of them is uh Shimshansky. So shout out to Shimshin and the other two staff members were Freriedman's and one of them was Benny Freriedman. >> Oh nice. >> Yeah. So he was a counselor in or a learn teacher in camp. Uh so he was running the choir. Um I remember the uh like not the rehearsals, the tryyouts, the audition for that choir and camp. Um you had to come and you had to sing to Benny. Benny was not a known singer then at all but he did do like a freed impersonation and um so we had to sing. I remember I sang Hamala and um made it to the choir. My cousin Marshall Waski, he's also a singer. He's my first cousin. We grew up across the street from each other. He's also extremely musical. He was in the choir. Um so yeah, that was like the earliest, you know, performance uh that I think uh I ever gave. Um wasn't camp. So that was exciting. But that that was that was probably the beginning of, you know, any type of singing. Yeah. >> And if I'm not mistaken, you and Bar Shalom were also staff members together in camp 2, right? Um that does make sense. Um I I don't remember doing any singing with Baron but yeah Baron was there was in Gor for many years um as a camper as a counselor or as you know different type of staff member. He was native director. >> Um I was there one summer as a counselor. It makes sense that he was there also. Yes. So I remember growing up with the DVDs of when Misha Raskin would make the camp videos because my brother was a camper at that time and in one of those videos you see Barshaw being night activity but also doing music like singing in camp. And then there's also you singing a little bit there's like uh I don't know if you remember but there's a little clip of you singing the a grand trip breakout song at the grand scene. there was like a grand scene and they're breaking out the grand trip and you were probably singing that. I don't know if you remember that. >> I don't remember that, but it's very possible. We did a lot of different singing in camp. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. So, I really like those who have the video. I don't know if people like really remember it or have it or whatever, but those who have that DVD kind of saw you in the beginnings of what came to be. >> Yes. Um yeah, in camp, um I still wasn't like singing professionally or anything. Uh but I did do often you know here and there a song here and there. Um I composed also some camp songs. Um you know different uh camp songs even sometimes I didn't compose it but I did lead it in you know while teaching it and so on. Um so yes so definitely um was always into singing. I went to yeshiva in France for four years in BWA and um in BWA um I d for the a bunch of times. um I daved uh you know you over Shabbasim they sent me to but they were very very into and um that's something that I I I I [clears throat] actually I came to yeshiva thinking I know basic and then when I got there I learned that actually there's a whole library of hundreds of beautiful songs that didn't know about and pretty much learned about them there in yeshiva uh this is going back 2005 67 8 those years. >> Yeah. >> Um there were different and then in yeshiva there there were they had what's called sedunim and we could get into the current sagunim. Um but sagunim was essentially a an official uh you know part of of yeshiva. It was mandatory. You had to be there. And all we did was sat and sing nonunim. and the person leading the Nagunim um you know he was usually the the balagen the the one that knew um the nagunim the most you know so the different years I was there they had different people leading it um and that was that was extremely special uh time extremely special period of of yeshiva it was to me it was the most enjoyable more than the learning and more than you know was the singing um got took it very serious very into it Um, one day I was sitting in just in Z and yeshiva and someone came over to me, a friend of mine and he said, "Would you like to dab for the kipper at my father's kabad?" I was in Florida and I said, "I've never done that before. I shabas, but it's, you know, it's you have to know what you're doing." I said ball game. Yeah, >> exactly. I was I was um 16 maybe 17 and so he said no no no you don't get it it's a very small operation just come you know you don't have to know too much yeah learn whatever you can learn so I said okay I'll do that and they they brought me in from New York so I was in New York for for tush so they brought me in for Ashana and then flew me back and then Yam Kipper brought me in again and they paid me $500 and um they gave me a $50 tip. So I was in the top of the world. I got you know $50 tip 500 bucks. >> It was great. So I um that was my first time in Rashana and then every year since then I you know I was I was kipper. So that that was the beginning. It all started basically from Yeshiva then also um some hardcore. So, Brwa as a yeshiva um so those that don't know Braa is a little city outside Paris um and there's a big kabad yeshiva that's been around now for some 70 years um 75 years probably maybe even more and um it's considered elite yeshiva but they they they definitely um have a knack for nonunim and singing and and um you know I really took it very serious uh you know the the learning the nagonum how to start them and how to you what they're named and who composed them and who sings them and so on. Um so it was it's a whole um you know uh art of its own. Um and and it's also where it kind of started you know for the um with my friend asking me to come down. So that's that's kind of the beginning of things. Now I I only took voice seriously um later. I I when I was in yeshiva, I was not going to any voice teacher any you know um but I spent a year in South Africa teaching um it was American yeshiva it was a yeshiva in South Africa for American boys and I was teaching there and I was in my 20s already 21 22 and um the the the group I was part of some of my best friends also caners kazanim singers um and we we said hey we should really you know get to see the sinkas in South Africa you have many shuls uh that have till today even a choir and a kazin so we got very involved with that culture it was amazing we would go to shto and listen to this kazin oh he you know he's not that good oh this guy knows what he's okay so we go listen you know he's doing >> also probably nus too not just kazanim also probably >> yeah so the yeah exactly they were they were uh professional um kazanim not only in kazanis in you know in no um in also in um uh just the it was all it's all choirs so coral arrangements um and you know you have your teners and your baritones and your bases and it was it was it was a lot of fun just going week to week to different shs and listening to this guy and that guy. Eventually we actually did a concert there. That was my first time I concertized. Um we did a concert in the Pine Street Shaw in South Africa. Those in Joe B will know that what that is. And um I actually so throughout the throughout my time there um there was a Kazan Yodi Cohen who you may know he lives now in the states. He was a Kazen there. We approached him. We said Yodi you certainly know the you know good voice teachers and he said sure yes go to this guy his voice teacher. We should go to him. So um I actually started my first voice lessons uh there in South Africa. He was a big opera, not a Jewish guy, but a really really good vocal coach. And I mean, you know, these were really good times uh learning voice and and not really, you know, grasping everything in that one year, but getting an understanding of how much there is to voice technique and and voice lessons and so on. So uh that was a very very uh good year in terms of um you know educating myself about uh what it what what voices means and so on. And then the next year um I came to back to New York um I enrolled in Yeshua University has a school of Jewish music school of Jewish music. I enrolled there and got to know the you know the the the ins and outs of the the Jewish music really lurggical. So there that we we you know they taught us nusak and they they very very strong into into the right nusak the right modes music theory rudiments um of of of music theory and and you know that was great uh Kazam Malavani was the professor he was like my my teacher um some amazing people met there as well and uh learned also uh how to play an instrument and you know various different musical things that just growing up in yeshiva just never, you know, it was all by ear. This made it much more professional and much more uh, you know, academic and so on. So, yeah. >> Um, so this is actually pretty cool that you're bringing this up because this is the aspect where I really wanted to bring out in our conversation, especially with a kazin as opposed to other singers that I had. I mean Simka I had also he's also a cousin but um the idea of when it comes to music versus the technical artistic part because I I could tell from your story that as a child you're very musical and then as you're growing up through childhood yeshiva and then and then and now and then eventually learning about music itself and then you had kind of like this this transition between taking music as a musical thing to getting very technical and learning all different aspects. exposed the line vers and also the grand aspects of taking music as an art. Um, does that somewhat take away from the way you were when you were younger when you were just going for I'm not saying just, but I'm saying the idea of taking music for music as opposed to now when you're very technical. How is that different now than like I'm I'm I'm actually curious like how you approach it that way. >> That's a good question. So when I was a kid, we we listen to Jewish music. Um Afreed and Mar and David. Uh one day my father got Oh, so Silva Zammer was very big in our house. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um >> there's actually I only learned later that it was Mendy Wald as a kid has a solo in a song called Yanha. Um so um we we were so we were like just listen to that over and over and over. But there was an album from Schlamaska that came out actually. So you mentioned Schlama. Um he put out um I think the album may have uh might be called um Hini or or um Heni. I don't remember what the name. >> Yeah, I got it up. But yeah. Anyway, >> but you know it had it had that was the song and we >> Oh, so it was toll, right? It wasn't that >> Oh, maybe. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. >> So, we just listened to that song over and over and over. Um I moved to Bokeh 5 years ago here in Kaba central Bokeh and moved around the same time to Bokeh as well and we did a concert together here locally and I told him I told him listen we'll do whatever you know whatever the the whatever we need to do but we got to do e-ain on Elie Mey this is like a childhood uh song. So he he actually I was I was working in LEC last year, two years ago or three years ago. He came by to do a music video and whenever I try to when I got a singer in person, I tried to do like maybe a little clip and I literally did like inanimly like me like it was really fun. >> Yeah. So that was that was such a rocking song as a kid. We love that. So yeah, I I um but as far as like music just in general, I I think um you know when you learn about it in a technical way um in a way you could connect with it more because it's you know you have a better understanding you have you understand how the music works and the layers of it and you know um and this doesn't really come with as much education. I mean it it comes within time and understanding uh the music but um there is also aspect of it like when I'm listening to a singer I'm now judging their vocal technique and now you know analyzing their performance and and are they uh technically sound and you know is this the kind of voice that uh you know is is exciting enough for me and so on. So there are certain like limitations and looking at it analytically instead of enjoying just you know the music. Um of course if you know Schlam Simka happens to be someone that his voice is phenomenal and he's got technique and he and he um you know he has a real voice. Uh but you have other singers that their their forte isn't their vocal ability. Their forte is their music or whatever various other things. >> Um so you know as a kid it was it was pure just whatever was on we were listening to. Uh today I'm a little bit more picky. I'm also able to um appreciate or handle more classical music that that as a kid it was just impossible. >> Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah. >> You know, so whether it's um like proper classical music or or opera or or kazanis um as a kid. So let's dive a little bit into that because as a kid my father did like Kazanis and he would talk about his the Kazanim like they were his heroes again he was now Kazan. So I as a bach I I started listening to um to Khazan Rosenblot and Kasitzki and Kartin um and you know you fall in love with these guys. So I I think Kazan that was something even before I understood anything um early on I would I would listen to them. There was a point that I remember listening to I think it was Kartin and thinking hey um I think I could do that. I think I can do what he's doing. Um now obviously now I know that I actually can do what he what he was doing. Um maybe I could mimic the same uh you know notes that he was singing but to sing it with the with the you know proper technique and the the heart and the soul and the the nama and the gdavent. I mean he was one of a kind. >> Um you know there's almost no one today that that has that uh you know that that's able to produce what he you know what he was able to do. It's interesting because um ever since I started doing I also do uh once a week reactions where people comment what songs they want me to react to whether it's songs that I probably will like not like or songs that are in different genres whatever just I let the crowd like pick a song for me to do. And the more I really like dive into tuning into the music, I realize how much more than ever and it keeps uh evolving the way I look at it. How the singers have their own personalities and their own things and there's like for example like like I I when I was younger, I never understood like why people liked Adigan. Not because he was bad, it's just because he's such such a different world of music in a way. And then like now I realize that like what he brought into his music that other singers wouldn't. And it's not just Adhan, it's also other singers. What Aan Freed brought into his music because if you ask people that just ignore me listening to music, they go like, "Oh, A Freed Mor David is like in the same world, you know, the same genre." But no, like every singer has their their uh heartsick way of approaching each song and and I'm not even talking about the production or the the way they were produced and what eras. I'm talking about them themselves, how they approach their music. >> Yeah. You know, it's it's funny you mentioned that. I I feel like you have people that are um they're their own singer, but they try to impersonate something that they've, you know, they they I I do this as well. Um for example, Afreed. So Afreed is, you know, in in the Jewish music world, he's the number one or two. I mean, he's the top >> right >> now. You have people that they are they've created successfully a career of their own yet without even realizing sometimes they are mimicking Abram Freed. >> Mhm. >> And that's how they sing and that's how they they have the same um you know approach as him. They they have the same I wouldn't say technique but and and certainly not the same exact voice but the same singing style as him. Again, not even realizing that they're doing that. And that's not a bad thing necessarily, but yes, you definitely have different singers that they've brought different things to the table to the music to the world of music. Um, and then um a consumer or or just, you know, a listener uh someone can be taken uh take the music so seriously that when they perform it, they're actually mimicking um one of the singers. Now this not just unique freed David has this as well and many others have this as well but I find it at least in the kabad circles many many kabad singers they are almost like a copy of freed and I'm not referring to his family you know Benny Freeman has a lot of similarities to Alan Freed obviously Benny has his own um you know Benny actually says >> um that you know comparing him to Adam Freed is the biggest compliment what do you mean >> is a great singer and you're comparing me to that that's a compliment And he's right [clears throat] you know he but his stylistic he has similarities to freed Sim Freriedman um Ellie Marcus these these are all nephews of freed they sing similar but beyond the family be you know there are so many people that um copy freed's way because it's so um you know that's what talks to them and that's what really uh you know makes them respond it makes them tick it makes them love music so um yeah it's it's you know I I find the same way in my head um actually I I mentioned earlier I went to university so the professor's name was Darell Lowour or Daryl Lowour and um I he asked he said okay sing this piece whatever um and I sang it and he said no no no you're you're manufacturing a sound you're making up a sound so that in your head you should sound then like someone and the truth is he didn't know this but I knew exactly who that someone was knew that I was trying because it was a Kasovitzky song. I was trying to in my head then sound like Kasavitzki and obviously that's just not not necessarily a proper way to sing. You you want to sound like yourself. Um yes, you could sing. So So this was something that I I um you know I picked up in myself, you know, I was like, "Hey, why am I mimicking someone? I should really create my own path." Um but you see that all the time with singers uh with Kazanim um and and you know with pop stars also out you know all all over the place. It is a thing to try to copy or be like or or stylistically impersonate someone. >> For me when I sing I'm kind of in the middle of it in a way where like I feel like I'll like if I'm doing a gig and I'm singing an a freed song or a freed mealy, right? So giving it time throughout the gig. I'll find myself like starting out in my head being I'm freed and then I'm telling myself, oh I shouldn't be like I'm freed. But then eventually I'll get to a point where I'm just natural with it because like for example when it comes to like English songs I don't necessarily pronounce with the same accent of pronunciating the English words like Aan Freed, right? because he has that like little like a free touch of saying the English words and how he sings it, you know. Um, and not necessarily do I do that, but then when I sing it, I find myself talking English like Aan Freed would in the song. So, I always try to just like not necessarily overthink about it like, oh, not be a freed. There's a point where I go go like, okay, what just be naturally you, right? Like as if you're reading from a paper and then there's like a a metaly to it. You know what I mean? like like I feel like overthinking it for me personally, overthinking of not being something takes you to somewhere where it's not authentic. It's like, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. So, 100%. In general, overthinking it um even trying to imitate someone um in performance, it's just it's it it you know, it's it's not going to resonate the same way and you just want to be you and um you know, hopefully the audience will like that version of you, >> right? And that's also why there's multiple times where I go like, okay, maybe I'll do a cover of this, but then I go, but am I doing a cover because I feel like I could bring something to the table to that cover, or is it because I generally love the song, so I just want to sing it, right? And then most of the time it comes to the point where, yeah, I'm probably singing because I want to, not because I feel like there's something to it that I could bring into it, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. That's a balance. I I wish more people would think about that before they put stuff out. Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah. Yeah. When we're talking about pronunciation of words and stuff like that are very in the mode on on they're focusing I can tell from their singing they're focusing on not just putting the right words or the right verse into the right notes but the right letters vowels exactly according to the right moments and the right notes. Whether it's in Kazanis that are in record in the studio or in the olden days when they would do like a whole choir in a Shaw or something or even now when Khazanim are just uh in Schul not just in pre-recorder studio in Shaw also there's like a certain like this note will have the kat and this note will then transition into the next letter and then when we get to next note that's when we get into the vowel of that letter. Can you tell me a little about that because I'm actually interested how you would approach it or if maybe I'm just overthinking it myself. >> No, so actually you are spot on um when it comes to that. That is something called vowel placement. Um technique proper singing is um it dictates how you sing the notes and um you know your your your larynx and your voice box and the vocal folds. Um, it it it's all a machine and to to make the machine work as best as possible, there are certain vowels that it works better with and certain vowels that do not work. Um, I'll just give an example. Uh, E vowel. So, E is a is a vowel that we sing on all the time. >> Yeah. >> It just makes it a little bit harder for tech from a technique standpoint to sing on E. Whereas an open vowel such as like an ah is much easier to sing. Um in fact if >> because you're is it because you're opening your vocal cords in a way >> because because you're you're you're opened your larynx is lower. Um again the the the the technicalities of exactly how um you know the the system works um you know there people that can talk to that better than I can. But >> right >> um I I'll give you an example. There's um a very a very famous piece or ending right um so it goes [singing] now down here I'm singing very low it's very easy to do that and you just go let's see y and you're done if you're extremely high the e let's to sing very high with a closed e vowel just makes it harder. So the technique will dictate will say to open it in middle. So for example it would sound something like let's see [singing] now you're going to say wow you sing like a kazin and it's a little strange but this is the technique. This is this is dictated by the technique. Different people by the way may have um you know different type of vowel placement based on their own voice. Um but you hear some very similar you know a lot of a lot of similarities within the different kazanim that um they will try to manipulate the you know the the the vowel to fit a one that is technically sound. Um there's basically there's for the most part six vowels in in vocal technique that um that you know that that there's a proper way to sing and all the other vowels you try to fit into those six um but um yeah so that's why that's why you have a lot of time uh you know times will do this. By the way, this is not specific to khazaris or classical music. Those, you know, pop singers, so to speak, that um that sing with technique. They have this too. Um their technique might be a little bit different because they're not singing so back. So um you know, in their in their throat, they're singing more forward um in the front of their mouth. Um so the technique changes but there's there's also you know rules in place uh for singers again non kazanim that they want to do of a certain vowel a certain way. Um it is absolutely a thing though to know when to do which vowel and it that's why the you know the the the pronunciation will come out differently and it'll be like why are you saying it like that? But I'll give you an example. Um uh the English lang so in English um a lot of the words are very back. So let's say the word can't, I cannot or can't, right? So in in America we'll say can't or can't. Um, in England they'll say Kant, >> right? >> But from a technical standpoint to say Kant is much easier to sing and it's much so the the pronunciation a lot of times with again pop stars, not even in the Jewish world like this is this is something very very famous that when you sing you're you're going to use a certain pronunciation and and the reason for that is not because it's more poetic but because technically it makes more sense to do it that way. >> That's it. All right. That makes a lot of sense. So, but then when you have um davening where there's also like the balance, you have to kind of have the balance of like singing as a kazan and then uh emphasizing certain vowels and letters in certain moments, but there's also the aspect where you have to also pay attention that because you're actually domining, right? You're actually dominating. So, you you have to also make sure that because you're representing the minion, you're also saying the words properly. Um is that hard? Is it like is it hard at the beginning and then you get used to it? Like what can you say about that? >> Yeah, I mean so the the you know there's a story told Yel Rosenbl. I don't know if it's uh I don't know exactly the accuracy of it, but the story is that a student of his asked him if he could teach him tal his tal yas Rosen has a very famous tal and um the student asked him to teach it and he said okay um if you want me to teach it you have to go learn the entire piece the meaning of the words and he said okay and he came back a couple of weeks later I learned the all the meaning you know the entire uh piece, what it means, the meaning behind it, and I'm ready for you to teach it. And at that point, Rosenbla told him, "Okay, well, now I don't I don't have anything to teach you. Now that you know the meaning of the words, you you know everything there is to know. Just go learn the tune and the domining will fit in place." And actually Rosenbot was known for being one of those composers when that you know when he when he composed the piece it fit with the ding with the it fits with the meaning behind the words um uh there's a song that he has um a very famous piece from Rosenblot. So the words over there is and he just goes so soft is the you know soft ways the meaning of it is is in the way. >> So he sings [singing] very soft and you know in now it's not easy to to see the meaning in every single word. Um, but you know, he was notorious for that, for making the words make sense. Um, so the do has to make sense and and you know, if if if what you're singing is a beautiful tune, but it doesn't clap, it doesn't connect with the words, then there's going to be something off. Yes. That's so true because like I remember also when I started out just I'm not necessarily it's interesting because I I do I didn't grow up with I grew up with so I'll be a form but then for Shabas I'll I do regular because I learned from so I got that right away. Um but I feel like with both it doesn't matter what or whatever. I feel like that one like half the work was knowing the dining and then it just made all the difference. I just remember like being very technical when I was a bucker and now like when people ask me to be kazin it's I I I go with at first it's at first it's in my head you know like okay I'm kazin but then once I start domining I realize I I just put the words and the meaning into the music and or to the tune and it just makes everything so much easier but also makes everything nicer because I remember like sometimes in my which is a sparing minion I they'll I'll do the and they'll love it the same way because they prefer the idea of the tune matching with the parach so to speak as opposed to like if just someone else did was a kazin right >> sure sure of course >> um so for those so when you're kazin for kimper is besides for the fact that it's just because it it is taxing based on timing and and you're standing and there's more to feel what's something that people that you think people don't really know don't really pay attention to in what makes Russashana Davenining as a kazin different than uh than regular davining as a khazin like something that people wouldn't know >> okay I don't know if this is something that people wouldn't know but you know the origins of of rashan kipper the kazin of rashan kipper um the the the the shabas davening the daily domining, you know, most people that davin, they'll they'll do it every single day and you know, they'll get very used to it. Um, and shabas, they'll d every week, they'll get very used to it. >> Yeah. >> Um, so week in week out, it's not a a difficult thing for someone that's going to dive in often um to pick up on it and be able to go to themselves. Rash Kipper, it's once a year. It's a lot of stuff, a lot of tedious stuff. Sometimes tiny tiny words and there's a lot of tunes and there there's just a lot of minhagim and sid is actually shorter um you know maybe 15 20% shorter than a lot of that. >> Oh, I know. Yeah, I know. [laughter] So it's there's a lot of stuff to know to remember and for the common folk that is not into this. It's not something that they could confidently get up there and be and that's where the job of the you have to study and put in the time and put in the effort um to make sure you know all the um you know to the whole entire dominating for me. I'm going now uh this is my 20th year I think that I'm dabbing Rashan and Kipper and I'm learning new stuff every single year. I I I go through the mat every year. Um you know sometimes I'll focus on a specific uh thing. you know, the basic of the nusaf I have that down pat and um you know, there are various pieces that I I try to uh you know, get in every year, but there are a lot of nuances and a lot of um you know just different uh uh parts of domining that we sometimes you know run through or um you know try to try to do with kitser instead of uh really giving it and there's every year there's so much more to learn. Um, so you know, I think that's unique that it's it's just a massive library of um of of uh pages of what to say and and and tunes to remember and and so on. And that is kind of what makes it difficult. Um the task on your body is, you know, it's it's tough because you're up there and you're singing and you're you know, personally I get very, you know, my it's a whole bodily experience. Yeah. >> Um and then you know you're up there for hours so it gets tiring but um I I would say the main uh the main concern is is you know beforehand studying it, learning it, making sure you know it. Yeah, that to me is I you know I don't know if people realize how much goes into that, >> right? I I love the idea that you're bringing up with the body because even like if when I just dab in Shabas or Mustaf I tend to use my body for the Kazanis too in a way you know like and it's not like I'm trying to emphasize and make a show. It's just simply like if I go kesser, I don't know what it is. Just my body just unconsciously my hands will just raise higher. Not say like hop high, but it just raises higher. Uh when I say shame, I'm I'm more happier when I'm going uh you know what I mean? Like it's just like some there's something that my brain just just brings a message to parts of my body just put into it. I don't know what it is, but it it really does something to your body. So already said in yeah right I think that's actually it's a I'm not sure exactly where it's from. Um but but my you know my all my bones my entire essence is is going to um to to sing your praises and and you know that that is definitely what happens. Yeah. You know, you know what's funny? For me, when I down Shabas, I kind of tend to like the Kazanis of Shakra Shabas more than Musaf because I feel like the tune for Shakas is a more simpler, but because it's more simpler as opposed to Musaf, there's a lot more room for you to not say play around with the tune, but but there's a lot of room for you to like put a lot of more emphasis into the words with the Nusak. So if the tune is simple but then when I get to um I'm trying to remember um right so I go mam right I like I'm like emphasizing a mole right you know what I mean so it's it's I don't know if you >> that's >> no what is shakas but something in shakas I forgot but the idea is that like there's something in shakas that because it's simpler there's a lot more emphasis that you can add to it that add more to the or or to the So, so this is something that people maybe don't know. Um, in general when it comes to kipper the you know he goes up for musf but the sheni or the or sometimes it's someone in the crowd will do shakus. >> Yeah. >> And then um you know the also will do might and will have someone else and shakas will be someone else. >> Right. Um now interesting the Kabad house world flips that because the you know at least the secular Jews that come to Davin they don't stay for Musf they come for the or forker they hear the sermon and then they they're out right >> you know so musf is a much smaller audience um but traditionally musf is the time for the kazin to shine however this is true Russian kipper not on a shabas so sometimes I'll come to uh you know uh I don't know shul as a guest or as a gig or something and they'll be like you know you have a musf you know and the truth is musf on a shabas you know there's not a lot there's not that much there um you know there's there's quite some some very nice uh in in in shabas but um shakas is much more going on um and also people are thinking of the kdesh you know when it when it comes to musf um so shakas is much more of a you know of a of a good time. So if you ever have a come for shamas and you want to give them one of them, give them shakas because shakas is really where all the you know there's there's therishma and and so on. Um but that is a thing that must is much more uh difficult and as we said before like it's much more unknown especially the um but even is a very complicating uh uh thing to get through. So, um, I think that's one thing that people don't realize that this whole Kazan equals Musf is a Kipper thing, not a Shabas thing, >> right? You know my pet peeve uh when I listen to Kazanim and and and since then I made sure not to do it myself not just in Kipper or if it's not most likely not much but mostly on Chabas is the closer to you get to the end of David the faster they go and it ruins so much like because like for example Shabas Kabal Shabas right they you you'll go with uh Baraku and and and and keshma like all that but then once you fit once you get to Vulu and like I was saying they kind of get faster because they're trying to get and I do you know like people don't realize kind of how there's so much you could bring out into the nus of towards the end of Cabala Shabas and they just skip through it and they and it's not that they're messing it up but they just they just skip through it and they're not even touching different notes and different things different emphasis they could do And I remember like being aazin like I make like whatever it is I treat every part of David even if it's alenu the same way the other parts of ding because because I feel like it's disingenuous if you're just a kazin and you're just then and closer you are you're just getting faster if you want to be kazin I feel like it should there should be some enjoyment to the point where every piece not necessarily is it as challenging or as powerful but at least there's something at the moment you have in each part of Ding. >> Okay. Yeah. So, two things. Number one, um I I agree about Friday night. Friday night is just a special special deting. Um yeah is is is really an unbelievable gift that we have that we get to do that from um you know it's just a very very beautiful dominating then the um and there's no but then after that the um you know the it's it's a really really special um uh part of but Friday night is a very special I will say second thing the second point is at the end of the day the's job is to be the is to be the you know the emissary of the of the congregation so it's a balance and um you know it's important to um you know not but also to uh to give and take actually there's a a friend of mine um I ded many times with him together in schul and we're in touch uh Zevi Müller from Westside institutional synagogue so I once I was I once went to uh to be guest Khazer and um he's he's been the Khazer for I don't know probably 15 years now maybe more um could be 20 years but either way he um he invited me to come for Shabas and um we were rehearsing on Friday in his apartment in Manhattan and um I said oh let's do this piece let's do this piece and and finally we had you know someone else to do things with duets and you know harmonies and this was it was just so exciting. Um and he was he was the one that he's like he said listen you got to give and take. You want to you want to take you want to sing you want to you know hear yourself and want people to hear you that's fine but then you got to give the space got to give it back. Got to rush. You can't do every single piece. You're going to you know you can pick and choose take a few nice pieces. Do it and the rest of the time move. people are not interested in just hearing you over and over and over. So that is also something to keep in mind um you know when you're so it's it's you know you have to give and take and I think that was just an excellent uh uh you know way of putting it and and general try to always do that. So people are annoyed almost if there's a kaz that gets up there it's like this is I'm not interested in this I'm not into this. Um this is just one of the many many reasons why the downfall of Kazanis canal music, classical music and so on. Um but I think that uh this kind of gave it a little disdain like oh my god another wannabe kazin is going to come and you know sing. So um you know that that definitely has been a problem. Yeah. Uh, so let's talk a little bit about when you officially went into recording songs and going out and making like not just in the show or not just you're actually like taking it to the masses or whe whether it's singles or albums that you join with other singers. Tell me a little about that and how different it is and how is the approach different when you are on in a show as opposed to being on stage when you're doing a gig versus domining. >> Yeah, it's a good question. So when it comes to the scholing and and and almost I would say this is not unique to Davening but the art of Kazanis. So let's say this was a cantoral recital. Okay. Um and you're singing Khazanis you're doing something that um is is called improvisation. So it's it's you're you're doing improv essentially. Um I do this on a weekly basis. So I have my general scope of what I sing and then I embellish at will almost like if you know if I just decide sometimes I decide on the spot sometimes beforehand I'll be like hey let me try something new. Um but you're kind of doing your thing and and you're letting it go and and if you're feeling good that day you'll let it go even more and if you're not you'll be a little bit more restricted. uh when it comes to um recording in a studio, you don't have that luxury. You need to, you know, stick to the music. Now, there is there there is room for that also. You have someone hold a chord and you do your thing, but mostly it needs to be in a certain structure, a certain bound. So, it's almost more annoying to sing that way if you are not used to that because you get to do what you want and now suddenly you have to fit a certain mole. um you know it it it Kazanus doesn't really allow so much for a rigid way. It almost is designed for improv. So um you know so in that way it's harder to go to the studio and do kazanis. Um usually the way it's done you're going to do you know a track you'll have someone create a backing track um and then you sing over it and they mix it and it sounds wonderful. for Kazanis your backing track when you sing with the backing the backing track can't change you need to sing according so it makes it a little bit more difficult you have some people that can help you out a little bit but it it for the most part it needs to create follow a certain flow um for me personally um I did a few different recordings mostly amateur recordings of different uh kazan or things like that until one day I said hey what are we doing here let me record something properly professionally Um, and I did, um, you know, I did a couple singles. I did an album in in in 2020. Um, 2019, I went to Israel. They invited me to do a couple concerts, um, with an orchestra. And while I was there, I also did, um, recorded, uh, Mzinka albums. So, there's a lot of Kazan. It's, you know, mix of a few things. Um, and put that out. So, that was a lot of fun making that, spending time in the studio. That was basically the first time I really um you know put in time and energy in into album. Like I said I did some other stuff before that. Um but this was like you know really professional people soel and and um uh you know working with him. I worked with Betsy Marcus on the Miza track also very professional. Um, one of the songs is from a single that I put out together with Benny Freeman actually, um, called Hakenu. And I did that with Danny, >> which that really blew up. I I remember like >> that was probably one of my first times I was listening to you. Okay. So, yeah, >> I I I I would agree with that. That was probably the, you know, the song that that that made it out there was also with Benny. Um, it, you know, went to to his circles. Um, Dom Gross was just phen. He's really really phenomenal. >> I really need to get him. But yeah. Anyway, >> okay. Um, so you know, so we put on the Zinka album. Um, one of the songs also was the Mishakim. I did that with Soel and his choir in Israel. >> And I didn't think much of it. Um, there was no orchestra and we did it just with choir which had a certain um, originally I wanted a full orchestra for it, but we did it with the with the vocals only arrangement and the idea was it would be a little different. It would be and it was it was done really well. Um um you know so that and then at some point but they were all covers though every single song was a cover. Some of them were new like was new to most of the world but right >> it was a cover. I mean it was a song from 1940. Um Mizinka a lot of people didn't know the words or whatever but it was also a cover. Um at some point I started uh just kind of learning piano messing around and and started composing some songs. Last this year I put out um Ilufinu which was a which is an original um my own composition um so we had ilfinu um I also composed some other stuff that I didn't never actually you know never released them uh but I did perform them here and there I once uh composed a song to halleluim I sang it I posted on Facebook and the musicians had no idea what the song was they never heard the song but I told them I said it's a basic fra song. Just give me a beat and you'll figure it out. And that's what they did. They were they were able to figure it out. Um, Hill Kapnik was was playing. It was wonderful. And after I posted on Facebook, someone messaged me. He said, "Hey, I put your whole song in sheet music." His name is Byamin Ginsburg. I put your I, you know, I typed it up. Here's your song. If you ever need music, let me know. And actually been working with him since. Um, any type of music. I mean, there's a few people that I I work with, but he's one of them. And um yeah, I I you know, so I I do enjoy the the process. I also worked on different Nagunam albums. We could get more into that, but uh yeah, it's it's I I would say the first like proper album was the Miza album. I used to have the Shaab Bunnet jazz version um which was I thought just so genius by Mayor Briskman. Um that was a I I actually recorded that first um in a studio live. It was done live and then we re-recorded it to make it like a little bit sharp. Um, and it was mdash with a big band which is essentially a loud jazz um, you know, uh, poppy type of sound which I thought was really really cool. Um, and that was all Mayor Mayor Briskman's idea. Mayor is genius. I don't know if you know who he is. Um, so yeah, so that was kind of the the the beginning of putting stuff out. Um I also did some other singles here and there. Um I do a lot of different shows at Kabad houses and um these shows we have uh different types of songs from Broadway and from Israeli music and >> Yeah, for sure. >> Um you know so I I recorded some of those also um you know some of the different uh types of musics as well. Yeah. So um before we get to the stand because I do want to get into that uh aspect but um the one thing I like about uh when how you approach the recorded or the shows um uh music is that um I feel like there's a lot of there's an audience for Kazanis and there's an audience for for normal music and then there's an audience that really enjoys the balance of both like Kazanam approaching kind of like in between like Dutu Fisher is one of those big examples where he's officially a kazin but when you listen to a lot of his pre-recorded or regular songs he's really balancing like the idea of like the kazin approaching like regular music and but with the kazan touch and I feel like you also have that a lot so I don't know if you if you could elaborate on that if it's intentional but the balance between if you want to go too kazanus or too normal if you could elaborate on that. >> Yeah. So, good question. So, there's two there are two parts. Number one is like we said earlier that you know I kind of grew up on the Jewish music. Um I started I fell in love with Kazanis then got into Kazanis almost by mistake um in South Africa and in in Wu School Jewish music um where it was very [snorts] centric um you know and and I enjoyed it. I I I thoroughly enjoyed it. Um, oh, so that was what I was good at. >> Um, I mentioned my cousin earlier, Basham Bosovski. Um, so Basham is genius composer, uh, just terrific singer, really good guy. Um, shout out Baram. >> Um, hi. Um, but he actually was the one that told me, he said, you know, you >> you have something that most singers don't have, and that's the Kazanic Kazan style. Um, you know, why don't you get more into that? And I actually, that is something that I just needed someone to tell me. I need to hear that. And he told me that and I said, you know what, I'm going to I'm going to go for it. That's when I went to YU. And um so I kind of grew up with both. Um um but you know, especially early on with the with the with the classical I mean not classical uh the the the Jewish music, you know, classic Jewish music. So it is something that I you know I'm I'm not a pure by any any, you know, stretch. So it's the balance, you know, like the dudu fisher style. Um, Scholom Lemur is doing a lot of that now. >> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. >> Um, and there there are there are others out there also that they, you know, they they excel in Kazanis. Um, someone that comes to mind also is Barl Tuker. Um, Barl >> sounds familiar, but yeah. >> Yeah. I like Connie Tuker's brother. So Barl is one of the best Kazanim and um and wedding singers out there. that that combination is is is rare. most you know the top khazan out there the healthcats of the world they don't sing weddings the wedding singers they don't really do kazan either >> well except for kas but yeah >> yeah yeah yeah but I'm I'm talking about like the dance of course >> by the way freed um I'm on kazan chats with a freed something that he really really loves >> oh listen to he's involved in it um >> he has many songs that he portrays his kazan talents as well >> tiier is one one good example >> I mean even and even Tanya and um there's so many um the list goes on I mean there there's there's many many of these mo you know so really has I don't I don't think David has many of those songs at all um you know so there is a lot of there is crossover also has a whole dominating album also crossover Yeah. >> Um, you know, and and a lot of the the singing the Jewish music is over. So that is that is just something that almost comes naturally to me. For me to sing Kazan is one thing to compose a Kazanus piece even though a lot of it is improv and and you know similar modes. It's not I it's not it's not something I I I connect I get energy from I connect with. Um but sometimes composing like just a ballad on a computer I mean excuse me on a piano. So like Gilufino or some of these other songs you know that that I find very uh interesting. So um so to me I think there's simply interest in both and sometimes the two will clash and sometimes they will fit together like you know in harmony. So in ilfino I do a kazon piece. Um some people told me it's too much other people told me you didn't do enough Kazanus. So it all depends on you know people's perspective and that's all fine. It's all welcome. Um there is also another element and that is the commercial element. Um what sells what you know what what what you know so there's art where you want to be able to um you know to to express your art and but there also needs to be something that you know you feel that there's the enough feedback and worthwhile to put it out. Um, you know, so that's also very important and I think, you know, some people such as Scholom, such as Dudu Fischer, they they were very successful in being able to to do to to handle both um at the same time. Yeah. >> So you're basically like for so you're saying, if I'm getting it correctly, in short, for you personally, it's you're you're just going about what you feel like is in the like you're not necessarily like thinking about it so much. You're just naturally doing it. And it so happens that because of your interest of Kazanas and singing, because of how you grew up and the way you fell in love with it, it just just comes together naturally unless you are specifically going for a certain way in certain parts of songs or for certain songs. >> Yeah. So it does come the blend does definitely is something that naturally I'm you know uh pulled in both directions. Um but when you're when you are releasing something you have to give it thought what is the purpose of this release and this investment and it's a lot of money it's a lot of time it's a lot of your nama uh you know it's also being vulnerable so you have to see is this something I want out there and sometimes sometimes you you you come up with the wrong answer by the way you could you could think this is a perfect thing and then it's not or vice versa um but that is something that you have to just be conscious and you can't just put stuff out there um you know So yeah, so it's it's definitely a balance on on the commercial end as well. >> Before we get to Santa Gunam, I just want to bring out one point is that um one thing that I don't think people talk so much about in Jewish music in general is arrangements. Uh you know what I mean? Like the idea of like so much thought of like arrangements and what music and what musicians to have and what what instruments and how to go more technical, more traditional, you know, in general uh uh arrangements. I want to point out a point where I feel like in Jewish music, at least in Jewish music, maybe it's also in the Gisha belt, I'm not sure, but the best arrangements come from Kazan's pieces. Like, like for example, when you have Dudu Fischer, I think one of the best Yeron Gerski uh piano playing moments is when he was playing for Dudu Fisher and H or something, you know, like when he goes to the Khaz and he's like really going into it. Actually, not just your own. It was also uh Dudaf Fisher usually has this guy, I forgot his name, Israeli guy that plays the piano. But my point is like in Kazan pieces like the trumpets are more powerful, they're more energetic. Um or the piano or you know, I mean like there's so like there's something that amplifies the arrangements in Kazanis. I don't know if you could elaborate or make it like what is it just because it naturally happens? Is there something that >> Yeah. So there's something very interesting that I find with Kazan but also with classical music. Um let's take Pavarati for example. He's the greatest tenor of all time. Uh people will debate that but for the most part you know he's he's just the greatest uh vocalist tenor. He would do a concert with a 60 70 100p piece orchestra or with one piano. though check them out on YouTube that those are the options one >> like nothing in between >> nothing there's no sevenpiece band for papar it does not exist in the kazan world it's the same you have so much kazanus with a single piano or a single choir if it's let's say you know or whatever or you go to and there's a massive orchestra >> and it's just that's how you know the the the classical music is built a six piece band for kazan it happens and you'll find it. It's not a typical thing. Now, why am I saying this? Because the the orchestral arrangements are, I believe, what you're referring to. And you have some really really great musical arrangements um or arrangers that that make these arrangements such as Morai. He passed away actually his >> Yeah, but I was going to say before, but shout out to him. you know, like I I didn't hear I didn't I I feel like I didn't hear I haven't heard enough, but the little I've heard when he talks about music or when he plays music or when he sings also sometimes he sang it's like so underrated it's not even talked about enough. So shout out to >> Yeah. So exactly so um I actually sang with his son Oir Soel on many different occasions um with the orchestra incredible arrangements. most of them were Moris the fathers. Um he since passed away and Oir now makes also incredible arrangements. Um and those are full on and like you said with the trumpets and with the brass section um you know so so that is that is absolutely uh you know and then I mean there's others such as Ali Yafi um Amy Gerari A Remy Gi who creates arrangements um for you know a lot of weddings and a lot of different Jewish music and and >> I mean he creates also for orchestras and and those are terrific too. So um yeah there's a lot of talent out there. There's also someone actually I was in touch with today. Um he created the the quartet, you know, they have like the basilani quartet and the rebum quartet down. He created the arrangements for you Eden. Really really terrific terrific arranger. >> Um you know, so there's a lot of talent out there in the arrangements. And when it comes to Kazanis, you're either going to have a piano, which there's not going to be any arrangement or anything exciting, or it's going to be a full orchestra and then the arrangement is going to be terrific. So yes, that's actually a good observation. Do you think it's because in Kazanis it requires either you go very intimate or you go very grand? Is that why you think it is? >> Yes and no. I mean it there's room for grand. Not not every song is a room for for for grand um you know or orchestral but in Kazan there is um now the piano is almost I I think for a different reason because like I said earlier there's improv improvisation. So, it's very hard to get a whole band to back you while you're doing improv, right? >> Whereas a piano, I'm just going to sit here and let you do your thing and I'm going to play and you know, and there's some people that are like kings of that. We had Danny Gildar all he passed away during co um he was the best the best at this. Um there was there's been in Israel is Edson the ranger I mentioned I did many many events with him. Um he's just naturally comes there and he's able to follow you in the proper way. So um that's why there's either piano or when it comes to opera I mentioned Pavarati did the solos so opera is much more much less improv and much more exact um but still the uh the piano accompanist will know exactly how to accompany on a piano and you know and that's fine too. Yeah. So, let's go into um uh Sed Nunim uh because I feel like um I feel like a lot of people are really really connecting with uh that project and and for many different reasons. Um, I think one of the main reasons is because it it it kind of gives respect to the niggan as opposed to trying to make some like it's hard to explain like it's it's almost like you're focused on the niggan as the first priority into every decision you make. Then it goes into all right then what do we do for arrangers? Who do we hire to be the musician? Who's going to sing with the yeshiva or the the choir for this song and that and that medaly? Um, tell me how that started and how that how that came to what it is now because yeah, I remember also also before you start I just want to say I was in yeshiva Morristown when you guys came down from Morristown. I don't know if it was you that that came with but it was Beny Marcus and >> uh came back down but yeah anyway you were saying >> so um I'll tell you actually I I mentioned earlier that in yeshiva bwa say that was like you know that was just great great times great memories great nagon great singing you know it's it's everything a kumzis gives you but it just it's almost almost feels be because it's not you know it's not yasi green who you know you know Yasi Green he's he's alive these are timeless these are you know hundreds of years old so you feel like it's much more spiritual the the you know the the the place it brings you to so is very special and some are by the way sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp sp spiritual but um the way summ started for me so I wanted to I actually did a live session some of it is recorded um I wanted to do a a a nonunim session with everyone live streamed. That was my plan, my idea. Um, we actually did one, we had Aragari come um and he played and he's just amazing. We had Zami Shriber also coming like >> Gari is Amy G or someone >> G same. Yeah. Yeah. Same person. Um, Zombie Zombie Shriber came as the as the musician and Amy G was put on Facebook like, "Oh, anyone down for a concert?" So, I said Remy, we're doing this thing. Why don't you come? And he did come and we had a great time. this before Tish probably seven years ago anyways and we did not actually record it live but it was the first one so I figured we'll do this we won't record it live we'll see how it goes and then eventually we could we could make a live >> um and it was a very nice evening but that was kind of the end of it and I I never really followed up on it I wasn't able to I don't know just didn't didn't work out for me the technicalities but one day shortly after I was or maybe six months later I was on Instagram minding my own business and I saw an account popped up, a new account and it was called Sedon and I'm like okay I reached I DM'd immediately I said I don't know who you are I don't know what you want or what you're planning or what you're thinking of I want in so I got a response immediately oh hey this is Beny Marcus I I was I already had worked with him on a song and he says um uh we're doing actually a thing in the the Jewish children's museum at six o'clock talk tomorrow. Why don't you come? So I said, "Okay, I'll be there." Anyways, I show up. I had no idea what to expect. There was a room lit and set up and it was with this with this whole crew, a video crew and and a sound crew and they had like the the crane, you know, for the video and it was this and then the table was set like this old style fab with flowers and mashka and and then there's musicians and I knew the musicians are and you had the pamea and I see Beny, he's sitting in his, you know, in his weekday clothes and yeah, this that he's like, "Yeah, we're Benny's coming and Ellie Marcus is coming and this guy's coming And anyway, okay, this is terrific. I sit down and tell tell me what to do. Oh, we're okay. We're going to sing nonim. Beny had a whole list of what we're going to sing and what we're going to do and who's going to lead them. And with that after a couple hours the whole say the nonunim the was born and um and uh you know we we we recorded I don't know probably 10 12 nonunim >> um and I think they actually they ended up selling it as a as a CD and as a you know there were still CDs when I did Miza I also did CDs mostly just so I have my picture in every store you know you go in a store has my picture like that's what I was going for I don't think anybody was you know doing CDs in 2020. Um but there was there was certain value of that. Um so Benny Beny also did a CD and then about a year later um or two years later I moved to Florida, moved to Bokeh and I got a call from Beny. He says, "Hey, are you available on this and this date next week? Would you want to come to Marista?" So I said, "I would love to. I'm just I'm in Florida." So he says, "I don't know." "Okay, you know what? We'll fly you in. We'll fly you in. I come. And who's there? Barcelon Bowski, my cousin. Yeah. >> And Barl Suker. Barl Suker is who I mentioned earlier. Um he also came to Marstown. So the three of us um Baralam, I don't know if people know this or not, but he's extremely funny. And >> Oh, 100%. >> Yeah. I I I couldn't I couldn't like not laugh when I was with him. So I said, "Ralam, you're gonna have to sit on that side. I'm sitting on this side and Barl in [laughter] the middle. Otherwise, they'll just laugh the whole time." >> Yeah. So that's what happened. So Barl's in the middle. Um, and we went through a bunch of nagonim and we we had prepared them before they gave me I think two nagonim and then you know they give everyone two nagurim but we also learned each other's and um and we we when we were done the brim said hey we want to do a a niggan called shinalef and everyone [clears throat] looked at each other like you know this niggan shale so I said look I know this niggan from yeshiva I haven't sung it in years but I I'm pretty I know how it goes. Okay. So, um the the the bakim all seem to know it. The musicians didn't know it. Um but whatever. I was able to teach them really quick like you know it's it's a niggan. Um in music musically it's different because it's it's an it starts off in major. Most are minor, right? This this niggan starts off in major and um we sing it once um and the the we were done all the the extra one. the crew was ready to go. It took extra time. Um, you know, there was, you know, every everybody wanted to go home. The Baham also had to leave and I I just felt that it was a little low. The and we we sing the whole thing low. So I asked the musician musician said, "Yeah, might be low." Beny said, "I don't know like I think it was fine, you know." Anyways, so I said, "Okay, if Benji's a boss, if Beni says it's fine, it's fine." But then Rabi Shapiro Shapiro, he chimes in. He's like, "No, it is low." It was very low. If we could do it again, let's do it again. So, we we had already done it twice in in the lower key. Just Okay, let's just give it one more shot in the upper key. We'll do one shot and if it's not good, we'll stick. We did one take whole niggan once and like perfect. We nailed it. Okay, it went out. Now, again, this niggan was just like a, you know, extra that the baka wanted. This niggan blew up. every one. I got so much feedback about this niggan shin. Tell me about it. What? Why is it called shin? What's the shin a sha? Like what what does it even mean? Now really this niggan is shin because in safe each niggan has a number and this is niggan and shin. Now usually you would write 301 but for some reason this became niggan shinolif. So they wrote out shin you know s h i n a l a f shin olive and it became this I got calls from by the way labavatures non- labavatures I got calls from buff I got parents mothers um you know I have some you know c everyone was into this niggan um and it was you know so I really feel like to me at least you know shin olive was like everyone that I know is like oh this this niggan it's really special it is a very beautiful niggan and you know so that was that was there in Marstown and then um uh we did since then we did actually one in uh in 770 um not not in 770 itself but 770 in with so and did a session also um and we all did together we were all going to do three together but freed came from some flight and he didn't show up in time so we said okay instead of it looking you know funny we'll just each take our own niggan so we all took our niggan did his did his um that I think that took satan going to the next level um then we just did we just finished now about a month ago, two months ago in Chicago um you know also say the bakham there are very musical they know that um so it was you know it was it was a great uh journey the summ yeah >> yeah it's really cool what do you think it is that draws people to the aspect of like because I feel like the sanum like you said it's taking the kumzit and the nigun into a whole new level because of the fact you're taking two together um what do you think it is that makes people enjoy listening to not necessarily joining because no joining obviously when it comes to kumzits everyone wants to join but when it comes to listening songs what do you think it is that makes people like if you have a version of this song and it comes live or just the song itself they automatically go to the kumzits or when people are joining what do you think it is okay so it's a good question when look when you when you have one person singing um it depends on the song but if it's most afre songs you can't have a 100 people singing it you need one singer and then there's music and it builds a groove that way. When it comes to orzit in this in the same sense, there's certain things you could do such as you're not listening to one voice. You're you're listening to something more hollow, more um spiritual, more uh uh aloof in a way. Um also harmonically like you know there's a lot of harmonies that uh people you know could could place um when they're working with with many voices. Um there's also another element that I think for a lot of labavatures this is the case it brings them back to when they saying these in yeshiva in the exact same setting right >> you know some people you know outside they're not familiar with the not familiar with the setting some people outside of let's say I don't know some you know uh women that they they they don't necessarily know what suga is I'm sure they had their own in seminary their own types but it brings a lot of people back to a place where it's very familiar and um and you know so that that's that's kind of the idea if you take and David's kumitz is it the greatest kumitz of all time maybe maybe not but I think more than anything it brings people back to when they heard the kumitz album you know they know that song so so well and now they're hearing it again and you know brings them back to a certain place certain time certain zone >> and then with nun it's another level because with nonuna brings went back to like, oh, when I was in yeshiva, I we had the gun in my chas. Yeah. >> Right. >> Makes sense. >> Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, okay. So, what can you tell me about charity? Um, I know you're very involved in it. I'm not sure what capacity, but what can you tell me a little about it? Because it is it I remember it it was starting out and now it's like a a norm for every organization to use charity. What can you tell me about that? >> Yeah, so um I'm 10 years now. I'm a charity. Um so what you know the the the singing is mostly nights and weekends and during the days um I I help organizations fundra through charity um consulting with them working with them providing the technologies you know charity has many services today um but I guess the um you know what I can tell you about it is is there's really been a shift in the way people fundra um some of It is healthy, some of it is not. But um there was a time when you know to to fund raise traditionally was the only way you have to you know the yustle wineber you have to knock on a door and ask people for money. um you know once there were phones you don't need to knock on the door you could pick up a phone you could ask people for money then the internet came and now there's a way you could um you could message someone you can email someone for money the campaigns you know I think what it did was instead of you know uh the instead of asking one person at a time uh to donate it created this system where where everyone is going to find out about it at the same time because you're blasting it everywhere. You've pre-arranged people that are going to ask their circles for you. So, if I'm running an organization, I asked Ruven to raise money from his friends and family. His friends and family is not a a uh potential donor that I can have access to. I don't know his family or his friends and they don't know me. They certainly not going to give me money. But because I asked for u in the middleman and now I have 10, 20, 30, 100 of these middlemen, I'm accessing networks to help the cause in in a massive massive way. So this is kind of what um you know charity it changed over the years but this is almost what it is now and it's been for a while is the ability to get your uh you know your your your network of people to um be the one to make the call for you and raise the money on behalf of the organization and you know and and that has been a gamecher for many many organizations. Yeah. So, one question I actually wanted to ask you about charities is because charity has been now open for the amount of years that it's been open. It's been open for when the age of technology and money and fundraising and everything has just and it's even now still changing. There's always new ways and there's always new avenues and different platforms and everything. And I feel like charity is always one step ahead or at least with the times of like when it comes to like I remember like my parents using charity when it first started out they would still call people on their own phone and then years later charity had a had like a uh a system where you could just go click call click call making easier. Now I'm sure it's it's it's very different. What's like the challenge that uh not challenge, what's the the the the formula of like always getting inside the game and always getting a step ahead of the game whe whether it's technology or whether it's the way people fund raise in other avenues. >> Yeah. So there's I think there are two points to answer your question. One of them is that we hear from our clientele and and we adapt accordingly. So, um, we'll hear from the client. They'll say, "Oh, you know, well, uh, so and so is using, uh, this type of technology or, um, you know, uh, I I saw this, uh, service or this feature work really well somewhere else." And I'll be like, "Okay, well, if it's working for you, let's investigate. Let's let's implement that." That is that is uh, one. And now this the the sales team um is mostly responsible for that because we hear we speak to the clients, we're in touch with them and um you know we hear what the clients want and what they're seeing and and so on. So that is I would say um you know the the the number one way um that we do it. Number two is competition. We we we need we have competitors. So in if it was a monopoly, if charity was the only game out there, we could just do our thing and not adjust and people will have to use us and there would be no no other option. But today there are 40 different competitors right now. You know probably uh over the last 10 years there were a hundred and I'm not even exaggerating platforms that tried to replicate. Some of them fell flat on their face and they don't exist anymore. others became successful and they were able to you know replicate the model and do what we do and um they they were able to uh you know get clientele and and and sell their service. Um now because those other platforms also exist we have to adjust all the time otherwise we're just going to get stuck behind and that's what happens with technology. So I think for those two reasons we must be cutting edge. Um are we cutting edge? Yeah. I mean we try to get ahead of the curve um and there's always more to uh you know to to to coming and it's constantly evolving and with now with AI when we've implemented basically a whole overhaul of AI within our system within our platform um that's evolving very quickly too. So there's a lot of adjustments being made on the daily. Yeah. I think you brought up a very good point about competition and I I always hear this about when it comes to entertainment and music or just in general life. I think it's a great life lesson that when it comes to competition, it should never be out of a way of coming from a place where it's about ego or superiority in a in a way it should always be in a way where you could do yourself better. Right? So whether it's uh competition in entertainment in and not necessarily competition like oh this guy's doing so good and better I should be like him or even better. No, you should go like what can I what can I bring to the table that brings something unique and so it's challenging yourself as a creative to do something more. I feel like that's everything in life, right? So when whether you're in a job or something personal in a sh community, there's something that you're always putting yourself in position to do better because you always want to do better. I feel like that's a great lesson in life when it comes to competition in that aspect. >> You know, that's interesting. I I I I would agree with that. I I I actually find that with the singing also. So at the end of the day, um you know, you're you're going to have your voice. Um you could you could improve it, but you're going to have your voice. You can have your stars, you have your abilities, and you have your stage presence. All these things could be improved, but you're limited to what the aster gave you. Right. Right. >> Now, there are things that that you could do and and and you know, I I think that this is something that a lot of people lack in and almost Okay, I'll just give you an example what I'm saying. So, like if you come to a gig prepared with uh with the music, with the you're on the same page as the musicians, you um you know how long your show is going to be, you know what you're going to say before each song, you know how much time uh you're giving yourself. Um you will be able to uh impress and make uh you know and and satisfy customers. Okay? Right? Whoever's hiring you is the customer. um much more than if you're just kind of all over the place, even if you're a great voice and you're a great uh talent. But if you don't have the structure, then it you become a very hard difficult person to hire because you come with now a certain amount of baggage that needs to be dealt with also and that could weed out the competition. I also I mean one of the things I do is you might know this firsthand but I I work with um organizations on like consulting fundraising consulting and that's something that we discuss all the time. Everyone's fundraising. Everyone wants everyone's money. So you don't have to be the best beyond what you can control, but you can do the little things. You could be the person that's saying the most thank yous. You could be the person that's being uh you know the the the the easiest to access. or it can be sometimes a simple thing but that will set you apart. Um you know and in business in general and I was seeing also look a lot of it there there they they say this in all you know uh art and and all kind of business there are going to be people that are going to uh you know be be hired out and and get paid just because of their talent and everything else a manager will have to take care of them. you know, um you have a very uh these these people that are, you know, take take athletes, you see that all the time that off the court they're just, you know, they're they're really they're a mess of a person, but they are so good at basketball or football or baseball that it doesn't matter. Someone is going to say, "Okay, you know what? We'll deal with the with the headache, but give me the talent." There are going to be those people, but most people in the pool, they're fighting over they have similar uh talents. they have similar uh pool and it's about the edge and sometimes the edge is something very subtle just being a mench answering you know your text and your phone and and uh being organized being prepared being responsible and sometimes it's simple things like that that will make the difference between are you getting hired or are you not and the same thing is with with fundraising with charity with business with real estate with cash events all of these things if you set yourself above with sometimes one simple whole thing. This is uh you know the way that you could get ahead. Yes. >> It's and it's also being authentic. Like I I just put out a clip. I I I every day I try to put something. So a lot of times I'll put clips from things I did before and I was reacting to Benny Freeman's podcast where he sang with Sean Leur. And one things I what I brought up is is that more now now more than ever um people are trying to chase an audience when it comes to entertainment or singing or YouTube or whatever it is. People are trying to like c like try to not necessarily pander, but they're trying to uh fe food a feed spoon to get an audience because they feel like the next viral thing or the the trend that people are watching they're going to excel at. I always tell people and I always tell myself especially when I'm doing stuff that it's not that you should find the audience. the audience will find you if you are being the the mo the most authentic of yourself. What standard and how much? Yeah, that's the challenge. But the foundation of being authentic, being yourself is the main thing. And not only that, there are people that do find success when if they are trying to uh duplicate or copy or trying to find something that's everyone's looking at and they'll find success. But not necessarily are those people like authentic fans, right? Because they're they're they're only looking at you because of that topic. But what if that topic goes away? What are you then? What is your identity? When you are yourself and you are putting yourself into the art, when I say art, I mean anything in life. Then whatever people see you doing, they're seeing that for you and not for the thing that you are doing necessarily. And then the longevity of the connection you have with lack of a better word fan base or or just the people the clientele and other things is the longevity of your connection with them is just longer. >> 100%. Um yeah I mean authenticity is it's not just important it's it's everything because if you're you know you could only fake it so much. Um there is actually an individual that um you you should probably have him on. Arya Kunler. >> Um >> yeah. Yeah. >> So he is a terrific uh guitarist um in general musician singer. >> Oh Ari. Oh yeah yeah yeah. >> So he put out uh many different videos singing different covers of different artists together with some famous people. Awesome. A lot of them got, you know, millions of hits. Uh, but I actually I heard him say recently that he decided that, okay, let me put up my own stuff. And his own things were not known. They were not, you know, hits. And um, and they just they didn't get the same attention. So, so then it's wait, do I continue putting out my own thing or do I try to go for the attention and then eventually that will translate into my own thing? and he says it's something he struggles with and um I thought it was a very interesting and healthy almost approach that at the end of the day he realized he's got to he's got to do what what you know what he's what he has to offer and if it means fewer followers or clicks or that's less relevant what's relevant is that he's going to be not only true to himself but also um you know put out the and express himself the way he wants to express and I think a lot of artists uh today are like, you know, the e they're they're putting it out. We said it has to be commercially. It makes sense, but they're putting it whatever artist because the audience wants X, Y, and Z. So, I'm going to put out X, Y, and Z. But if you're an artist, then you have art to express. And that is not done by by making the audience happy. That is done by, you know, being artistic and and releasing um you know, and showcasing your art. So I think it's a very wholesome uh approach that this counelor is taking. I I never met him but I I've seen his stuff online. Yeah. I think it's very very important to be able to express with what you like to do and and and how you like to do it and um you can't just put out stuff so what the you know what everyone else wants to hear uh because it's never going to be enough, >> right? But then also like when you have something that are more famous versus something that you're more intimate with, you find that the feedback of the things that you love to do are more intimate than the feedback of something that becomes viral, becomes big or is the trend thing. Like I remember like um I I I put out so I I do a so on this podcast I had also people in the video industry. So, I had Clarence from Egis also on the podcast and I put a clip out in Instagram and the comments and the feedback I got from that from Clarence was so much intimate and funner than comments I get for like just saying, "Oh, what do I think about this album Freed song?" Because um because the people that are like with the Clarence, they go, "Oh, like I love how you interview the guy the like like this guy I grew up and then we talked about like our childhoods and what we love. We talked about art." Like I I have phone calls with fans of of these videos. They call me and they say, "Oh, like you watch that video, too. I watch that." And we go on a whole thing. And that's so much more meaningful than a uh a comment from someone that's that sees on co saying even though those are also great feedback too but the but the connection is more intimate. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So 100% what you're saying. Yeah. >> We are uh running out of time but I but I think we really touch a lot of different various topics and I wanted to thank you. Uh, last question before we end off. Um, the the themes I always like to put into the content I put, whether it's the music or the videos, um, aspect about Jewish entertainment and from entertainment is about like about the quality of the production and the music or when it comes to videos and stuff like that. So I just wanted to ask you as a last question uh what do you think that what aspect of from entertainment or in your case because you are in the Kazanis and the music world what aspect of Jewish from music can be done better that we are 100% capable of doing that people are not necessarily doing as much or as often. >> What could be done better than the way we're doing it now? Yeah, >> that's a good question. Um, I think a lot what we were saying, um, a lot of people are putting stuff out for instant clicks and views and less about the art and the nama and so on. And I think if we could be maybe more intentional about it as as a whole because today the music is getting more and more um almost silly. >> Yeah. And that silly is selling because it's fun or funny and but it's not necessarily artistic. And I'm I'm not here to say that all of this stuff is not artistic >> 100%. >> Because a lot of it is actually genius, silly genius, you know, um but but much of it is just kind of um you know, for lack of better words, slop. It's just, you know, putting stuff out that is almost cheesy because, you know, there's a there's an audience for it, so let's do it. So, I would say I would say um yeah, I I'd probably say that authenticity. I I I like what you're saying because there's a reason why songs that came out last year or two years ago, they like come out, they get a big uh push and publicity and virality, whatever the the word in English is. But the idea is that they get like they get the attention, but then it passes by. But then you're looking at like but there's songs that from 10, 20, 30, even 40, even 50 years ago that still live till today as like such mainstream song. And I think that is because like what you were saying is that there's there was a lot of approach of artistically and those have the longevity of of the their legacy lasts longer. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um look there are different times and music has different eras and different uh you know there was a time that Kazanas was where it was at. Um definitely it's not it's not like that today. Um and now we have a new time and there's a new era and there's a new type of music and uh there's a new world. But um yeah, some some songs are timeless classics and um most of them are induced by art and uh they they come out they express the you know as something something higher something more um than just with a you know good beat or or a good uh uh some you know something that's just fast and cheap and you know. >> Okay. Well, thanks for having me on. >> Yes. Thank you so much. And I I also want to end off by saying to all my guests, I want to thank you uh Ari for being part of this of bringing so much to the masses, but also for me personally being an inspiration and when it comes to the music aspect and for the endeavors that I'm I've been up to now and then endeavors I want to pursue, it's because of guests that I bring on to the podcast and that's why I like to highlight like things we grew up with and how we could continue. And so I want to thank you for being part of my inspiration of my childhood in Jewish music, especially when it comes to artistic and haz parts of it. I want to thank you for that. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on and you should have a great year and a good >> Yeah, you too. Take care. Take [music]