Using A Kli That Can't Stand Without Support For Netilas Yadayim - Mishna Berura DH Siman 159 Seif 3

Okay, good morning everyone. Welcome. We're continuing in Mishnah Berurah daf shin vav. We're learning siman kuf nun tes. We're in the middle of seif gimmel. The Mechaber said in seif gimmel we started this. Kli she machzik revi'is k'shehu someech l'chana'ah se'ah kli that can contain a revi'is when you lean it. V'im lo yeish smoochu, if you don't lean it, you shav hamayim, the water will pour v'lo yishar b'revi'is, you won't be remaining with a revi'is, ein a kli. It's not a kli. So, if the kli needs to be lay leaned in order for it to contain a revi'is, it's not considered a kli. So, says the Mishnah Berurah seif katan yud beis, kli she machzik b'Toras Beis Yosef, do aden b'shever kli shehu machzik revi'is shelo b'musmach. The Toras Beis Yosef we find that the same thing would apply in a broken kli that's machzik revi'is if you don't lean it. That in this case where you have a broken shard that it contains a revi'is and you don't need to lean it >> [snorts] >> uh then it would be good. The Chazon Ish is saying that it would be a good kli. Ach yesh omerim dafka d'trei halacha b'zeh, elem k'niyacha d'la tachnish. Some say that even according to that opinion you can't be lenient unless you designated it for usage. This we saw last time. This is all the walls of the kli. >> [snorts] >> A kli that it was diminished from above yechoil l'ha'amid al shulchan k'dei l'kabel al itz bottom shelo b'musmach l'kabel revi'is near the yeshu'ah l'cholel it in ein like kli acher. So, let's say like this, you have the kli that the top of it got minimized. So, instead of holding 9 oz it holds 5 oz. So if it split in its in its length so then there's an opinion that it's good, but many acharonim say no, it's not good, it's it's shever kli. But if it split if it diminished from above and it still could stand on its regular bottom the Mishnah Berurah says you could be lenient if you don't have another kli. D'vesof acheres hakli gavoha yakam acharonim l'asur l'ito l'chashiv a kli. This is very important. If a kli got diminished and the Mishnah Berurah is saying you could be lenient and use it for a kli you have to be careful that when you wash from it, you're washing from its lowest point. So, let's say you had a kli, it used to be able to contain 8 oz. Now it got diminished, it contains 6 oz, but the top of it, you know, it goes up and down, it's a little bit jagged. You have to make sure to wash from its lowest point. You have to be able to wash from its lowest point, which is a very important when you if you ever do netilas yadayim with a kli that has a spout. If the spout comes down lower than the rim of the kli if you were to wash from the regular rim of the kli, you would not be yoitzei even b'di'eved. This is a very critical halacha. I want to explain [snorts] clearly. You see, we have to judge on every piece of the kli, is it a kli? So, if the kli got diminished on top you need to wash from its lowest part cuz if you wash from the highest part of the rim, that part is not a kli because in that area it cannot contain anything cuz there's a part of it that goes lower and the water comes out of that part. So, that upper part of the kli is no longer a kli. So, when you're washing from a kli that's jagged on the top, you have to wash from its lowest point. >> [snorts] >> Ach yesh omerim she nifchas shesham a kli namucha d'vesof acheres, any other edge she'akli gavoha kama acharonim machmirin, many acharonim machmir, usviru l'lo chashiv a kli, they hold it's not considered a kli keivan she'ein a kli machzik mayim b'makom hu, since the kli cannot contain liquid in that part. She nishpachin d'archei achas she nifchas, it's going to pour out on the side that got diminished. >> [snorts] >> Now, v'ein b'chli zeh nikav acharkach nekav katan, if besides this there's a small hole in the kli, a feel rak k'moiti mashke l'vad, even small enough that it will just release liquid which normally we say is not going to render something not a kli, yeish acharonim shelo l'ito b'shulchan then in in the combination with the fact that it got diminished from the top, you should not use it to wash at all. One second, I want to I want to show you. Okay. So, let's say this is your kli. Make believe there's a bottom. And then what happens is it got it got a little broken. Okay? So, now it still contains a revi'is, it still contains 3.3 oz. And the Mishnah Berurah says you could be lenient to wash with it. But it says Mishnah Berurah, you have to make sure you wash from the lowest point. I don't know if you could see with the lighting, from the lowest point. Let's say there's a spot that goes lower than the other you have to wash from the lowest point, right? From from here, not from the why? Because this part of it is not a kli anymore. The you know, the color let's see, this part of it is not a kli anymore. You have to wash from its lowest part. The only part that's considered a kli is the part that goes up till the lowest point. Once anything above the lowest point is not a kli. So, if you're going to pour it from the rim of the higher point, the water is coming from a non-kli, you won't even be yoitzei b'di'eved. Now, this is very common in some places for some reason um especially let's say uh there's a caterer, they they put a pitcher out for netilas yadayim. Often the pitcher has a spout that goes lower than the rest of the point and people wash from the rim. That's could that's it's like it's it's like washing from a plastic cup already, you know? No, it's actually worse than washing from a plastic cup. It's going to be worse, can you imagine? It's going to be worse than washing from a plastic cup because that part that the water is coming out from is not a kli. Wait, part of it is pouring Or again, or two things. If the spout is lower than the rest of the pitcher then you must wash from the spout. Because the part above is not a kli. If sometimes the spout is higher than the rest of the pitcher then you can't wash from wash from the spout. Cuz that part is not a kli, it can't contain a revi'is. Is the problem that it's being machzik with this non-kli? Because I'm pouring from a kli that happens to be going through this Yeah. Yeah, but ultimately it came to your hand from a non-kli. The >> Let's say I have my hands I have my hands and and the water hits something else and then hits my hand. Then it's not good. Because it didn't come from a kli. Correct. It came from like kayach from the kli. Doesn't matter. Yes, what can I do to help you? The question in your broken kli where part goes down, when you're pouring part goes part pouring is above and below that at the same time, you're getting water from both sections of that rim. Not only from the bottom section. You're saying because the it goes down, but part part of the water is by the part that's already going up? It's higher on the higher section. Unless there's a big crack or a small crack, you got the water coming from the side which is above that's the indication. No? I hear what you're saying. If the part very slowly just from that that bottom corner. Yeah, but I'm not sure. Okay. Seif katan yud gimmel, revi'is she'akli shehu someech l'chana'ah se'ah, or it can only contain a revi'is when you lean it. Lav dafka, do aden im machzik arba revi'is im revi'is she'ein ayaser. It's not only if it's contains a revi'is when you lean it. Let's say it holds much more than a revi'is. by leaning it ein It's only going to be possul if when you don't lean it, it will not contain a revi'is. But if when it uh tilts over, it will still contain a revi'is. Although when you lean it, it contain much more than a revi'is, it would still be considered a kli. Lemishar by revi'is acher shvicha leinas battel mishaim kli. I wonder um who asked me Reb Asher, who asked me that question? That if you're washing from a part of the kli that got cracked, let's say the crack is like this. So Reb Asher was asking that the if you wash from the lower point, but there's going to be some water from the upper point and that area you don't have a re- a revi'is, maybe you would go by rov. In other words, maybe we would say if rov of the water is coming from the lower point, which could be machzik revi'is even though there's a mi'ut of water that's coming from a higher point that can't be mach- maybe l'chora we would say the the water from that's touching the other upper point would be battel berov. Do you need shishim? L'chora you don't need shishim. You don't need shishim. You just need rov. There's no ta'am over here. There's no We're not dealing with a flavor. We're dealing with reality. L'chora we would go by rov. >> [snorts] >> What what I guess one of the his criteria one of the criteria's for a kli is where's the water at rest? Like from the standpoint of where the kli holds it. If it's tilting over does it fall out or not? Meaning in this case for the rov. At rest, the water is in the kli. The kli is holding it. Okay, that that that the case of the broken piece and the case of the kli that where it's going to fall over are two different uh guidelines. The case the case where something is going to tilt over is as long as it could contain a revi'is without tilting over, then even if it holds a hundred revi'is when it's leaning, it's still good. Even though the rov of the the water in the kli is only when you is only when you support it, that's not relevant. The relevant factor is is it a kli? So a kli is something that could contain a revi'is even without leaning. But the broken part is a little bit of a different issue. The broken part is is this water coming from something Okay, let's let's go further. Um aino kelim katan yedaled This is talking about if it wasn't made this way originally. Then heisa t'chilas tikun akach, if it was made this way originally, halocha shav kli. It would be considered a kli. Kli kamon besafei. It's uh the Mishnah Berurah is saying a chiddush that if you have a cone shape on the bottom and it was made that way initially, it's a kli. There's no din that a kli has to stand on its own. It's only if it did have the ability to stand on its own and now something broke and it can't stand on its own, it's a problem. But if it was made initially that it can't stand on its own, it's that's not an issue. By the way, which would answer our question from a menorah. We asked you're putting the oil in something that's not a kli, doesn't matter. It was made that way initially. The fact that it can't stand, it was made that way originally. Or another possibility, it's a kli like a stopper. [snorts] There we'll see if it was made that way initially, it's not okay. Okay, let's let's go further in the machaber chukoch. Magufa shel chaves the cap of a barrel, the stopper of a barrel she chada that's pointy on top. Ino mekabel revi'is shalem mesumachas. It can't contain a revi'is if it's not leaning. Ino lemei'ana, you can't use it for netilas yadayim. If you widen it on the bottom achim kabalas revi'is k'she yoshev shelo musmachas no lemei'ana. If you widen it on the bottom that it's mekabel revi'is when it's sitting without leaning, you could use it to wash netilas yadayim. Says the Mishnah Berurah, magufa v'aden bekisei kelim the covers of kelim she heim chadan that are sharp in mekabel revi'is shelo yedei smicha and they don't accept a revi'is if they're not leaning, assur, you can't use them for netilas yadayim elo im kein tiknun, unless you fix them. Aval im hayu rechavim mit'chila however, if they were wide from the beginning mekabel revi'is and they do uh receive revi'is, kasherim, mishum demishtamshin lefa'amim bahem gam kein lekabel. Because they are sometimes used to uh to hold liquids. Unless you designate them explicitly for a for being able to receive liquids. So the Mishnah Berurah is saying if you have a magufa or any covering of a kli and they're sharp and they need to lean to accept a revi'is, it's assur unless you did some kind of tikun. What is this talking about? What kind of tikun? But if they were wide to begin with and they're mekabel revi'is, they're kasher because you use them sometimes and some say no, you need to specifically designate them. Okay, she chada heinu she chada lemata bemakom sheyoshev befiha chaves. They're pointy below where they sit in the barrel. Lemala algava yesh ba cholo lekaven on top, they have a cavity to receive liquid. That if you have a magufa that's pointy and it's not mekabel revi'is unless you lean it, you can't use it to wash. Vi'af hi nasis mit'chila chada even though it was made that way from the beginning. I, so the Mishnah Berurah is bothered. Didn't we say that if it was made that way from the beginning, it's okay if it can't contain if uh if it's not supported it's not considered a kli that was made that way to begin with. Hamavoya besif hei demuter mishum deloi nasis mit'chila beshelo lekabel ba mashkin. Ah. This halacha that a kli that was made initially that it can't contain a revi'is unless you lean it, that which we say if it was made that way it's good, that's only if it was made that way to be mekabel mashkin. But if it was made to be a cover of a kli, even though it was made to be sharp and that you could still put liquid in it uh and it could contain, it just it has to lean, that's only if you made it that the the it should function as a receptacle. But if it wasn't made to function as a receptacle, it was made in this case rakik kar lekisa yo. V'chein lo domeh lesak v'kupa amora besif daled demachmirin sham deloi mahani af im tiknun leshavas bloi smicha. It's also not similar to a sack and a box that there we say even if you made it to be a receptacle it's not going to work. Mishum devazal kapon mishtamshin lefa'amim lekabel es mashkin. Basically, let's just get this clear. There are three levels of kelim. A kli that was made to drink and it has a sharp bottom and it's a drinking kli. You use it to drink coffee, you use it to drink whatever you drink. We're not going to say. If it was made to drink, it doesn't matter that it can't stand without leaning it, it doesn't matter that if you put it down it will flop over. It was made to be a receptacle to drink and it's considered a kli and you could wash netilas yadayim with it even though it cannot stand on its own. The second level is uh cover of a kli that it was made to be, so to speak, sharp on the bottom and to keel over. So in such a case, if you fix it that it could contain with that without support it would be good because sometimes sometimes you use it to contain liquid anyway. It's even though it's a cover of a kli, it's sometimes used for that. However, a sack or a box which is never used to be a receptacle for liquid, even if you fix it up, it's not going to be good. Okay? Hang in there 1 second. Recording stopped.