Until Rebbi Akiva Came….From Where? - 6 Incredible Approaches {Daf Hashavua Iyun Sugya Nedarim 27a}

Okay, good afternoon friends. Sorry for the delay. We're learning, but we have an amazing topic today. This leon grabbed my attention, but I didn't really hone in on it and bring it to the forefront until Shabas we started discussing a little bit and then I found a gold mine this morning. Hence uh the delay but I think uh I hope it'll be worth it tells us on and we had similar lion in the gumar brought a says there's a that's partially mut and partially user how if you weread from a basket and there were bay shu in it and you say if I would have known there in it I never would have made a nether. So the basket is also is mutab until came fully made and he taught another that's partially mut is entirely mutab until came and we mentioned on chabas until he came from where where did he come from and I'm sure you know this is not the only time in shas where we have the until came. We had it on in the Mishna. The Mishna spoke about a case where somebody said that you saw a bunch of people eating figs and you say I asked them as a carbon and one of them turned out to be your father or your brother. So says B says and then the Garra brought another Mishna. The Mishna said at first they would say the days that are Mut remain permitted and all the other days are assur meaning Shabas and if you made a Ned for a bunch of days that you're not going to eat meat and Shabas and Yumpt came out. So at first they said okay those days are and the other days are until came and he taught what is exact what exactly is this and I did some research. Do we find such a shining by any other so and so you know you have been benar fine but it doesn't say came from anywhere but what does it mean? So I saw on this sheet that I found um that the is found in a number of places. For example, there's says great. It rips up the and okay. The Gumar says maybe only if he said no even after the um in other words taught that there is a difference between and after in fact this source brings that There are a total of 11 places here 11 times. 11 times we have the expression. What else is interesting is that um we don't find it about anyone else. One time we find it by Ram Gumlabel. So what exactly is this expression? You know until he came from where? So let's begin with the hay. There's a gumar in shabas that the garra says originally said that a woman who's cannot put on makeup that you're going to be her to her husband. You're going to disparage her to her husband. So taught that a woman who's allowed to wear makeup this is found in you could ask where did come from why did it pick this language? So the gar says we have a similar yesterday we looked on it's on the garra says that that dion every s in the and until he got to the hashem he said, "What possibly could teach me?" There also we have the expression. So explain this. When we say came, it means until he came from heaven. parades in Benaza until he went up to the paradise with Benaz with Ben with Al with Alisha there in the Shayima saw they punished the Malik Alisha for not standing up for Alisha. So said, "Wow, look how great the the is the is so great that even the angel mat has to stand up for and with this it became clear the fear of how farreaching it is. Therefore was the rabbi. So the learn at least in the until he came back from Shayim. Now it's very hard to say and to work through all the examples of Rabbi because makes sense that he came from Shamayim if it's in if it's in relation to but all the other 10 g by what does from have to do with anything then the sort of digresses What equation is there? How what equivalency is there between honor of flesh and blood and honor of Hashem? The the reason is explained in the works of honoring is a way of honoring Hashem. teaches the laws of God and his and he notifies the nation the road to go on and the actions that he needs to do that a person needs to do is not given extra special honor. A catastrophe will come from it. If the is not given exceptional honor, people will not respect his opinion. So honoring the is a way of honoring Hashem. From this we learn out In other words, now what the is trying to do is what how do we apply the came from the so that is relevant to how he d and but how is it relevant to to the gamar and shabas that the that the is going on that a woman who's an is allowed to put on makeup When came from the heavens and equated the honor of to the honor of heaven. Then he taught us this matter as well to permit the adornment of just like taught you have to honor because otherwise if they don't have honor people are not going to listen to them. So therefore equated the honor of to the honor of Hashem. So too, Rabi had to so to speak elevate the honor of a Rabika had to care and show concern that the woman does not become just like Rabika had to ensure and secure the honor of Rabika also had to make sure that the woman does not become disparaged her husband. Exactly what the equivalency is is not completely clear but the says that there seems to be some denominator some commonality between showing honor to ensuring that the woman doesn't become disparaged to her husband. That's one shot. Until came from Shamayim again what would that have to do with Nadarim? How would we explain? I'm not sure what that would have to do with or other then. So that's one. What does it mean? He came from heaven. Another first was poor for his original status was poverty and then he uh then he entered a new strata. He became wealthy. We find after he became wealthy, he would honor his wife with very valuable adornments. What other sages did not do, meaning honored his wife more than other rabbis honored their wife. The wife of who was the and wealthy was jealous of his wife. She said, "My dear husband, why do you not honor me like honors his h his wife?" So students said to him, "You're embarrassing us. Once honored wives paid attention, you know, we have to make sure that women are honored even when they're so when it says until he entered the best mention and he became wealthy. So he was more and he taught this that we have to honor women. That's what it means. Now what in the world would have to do with what would it have to do with? So the first shot of the beay until Raba came back from Shamayim you know and there he saw the great honor they accorded to so and then extended that to a woman. How that extends till the other nine gumaras unclear. Then he says entered the strata of the wealthy and that explained and he started to honor his wife exceptionally. Okay. But what does it have to do with all the other garas? I found the asked this question in I thought I I you know I wasn't sure where this was going today. I actually had an idea last night but apparently it was this. Okay, let's see the is found in was afraid to dash and s to include and when he entered the parades him and their friends so they hit Mat with 60 lashes cuz he didn't stand up for Alicia Benavuya and From there we hea learned the honor of so this is the brought from the until he came from the parades where he saw malas. So he had the to be but the says that I would say a different he says me I would say that taught that a exceptional has a spark of there's an idea that every has a spark of that's why sometimes in sh we find mosha saying good what do you mean what do you mean his name was a mo he had a name. No, but if he's saying good, he must have a spark of we already know the strength of the greatness of the soul of it says the man explained until Raba came with his 24,000 students and he was to the needs And he was means until Rabia came with his 24,000 students and he reached the maja that he is they reached the maj of eminence in Torra that he has a spark of so to the maj of having a spark of mosha. So I guess anywhere in shas where it says it's indicating that until came and he like you know he put the matter to rest because he reached such a high level that he had the spark of that's the third shot says from the parades or to be wealthy the says until he came until he came um with with a greatness of Torah with the spark of my shabeno. I want to suggest two two alternative perushim. One is very simple. The most famous example of ashabaka is the gumarus. I think we me we mentioned this yesterday. Let me try to put this up. Um the Gumar that talks about Rabbi Ka's 24,000 students. The Gmorrah says that Rabika had 24,000 students and they all died who knows what death they died of. What does the Gumarra say? What did the students of Rika died? They died of ascara. Who else died of ascara? The Moragam. So um here oh look it open right to this kumar let's see do you see this in here says Paris until came where and he taught Raudi Shim and Rabb Shamua. So I would humbly say means until he came to the students in the south where his Tyra really was elevated to the highest level in a way similar to what the says says with 24,000 students. I would just say that I like this perish better because we find a gamarra explicitly saying is referring to when he came to the five students after the 24 students 4,000 students died. So the gar says when we say it means and that could be the in all 11 g that when it says it means so it would come out that our in um inadim is because it's this time of the year that we mourn the loss of the 24,000 students of until he came to the five in the dar. So that's why we're learning now. Okay. I found somebody says this but we said it in yesterday. Rabbasi will you know will be made that that we we preempted it. One second. Um, what happened to our again? Um, our mar I'll tell you who says this. I think it's a perisha. Let me just pull it up here. Let's pull it up. Here in the do you see this? He says he didn't find and he said he did a computer search the expression except for except for one time. He says based on the gar that says and he was a second time had he not come the world would be missing. The world would be missing. So the expression the safer and we also suggested it says it refers to when Rabika taught those five I would like to suggest another as well you know there's a gar in that says why do gay have a hard life says because they did not observe the mitzv when they Go ask on that that can't be the reason because they're not accountable for not observing the seven this concept of dummy says his whole life he wondered what's the source for gisha kakata dummy and I once saw an ablazer Ginsburg I was looking for it this morning. I I uh also that took some time I couldn't find it but he says as follows I saw this many years ago that maybe the source of gay is that kazal say that hashem does not take one sadic away from the world until he brings another sadic in his place and the brings different examples by the way on the day the passed away the yakov was There are many examples of this. Yeah. So Ginsburg said another example is and the Medus gives this example is on the day that Bayaz's wife died Russ came to the fields of Mayav came to the fields of Bayaz. So Lazy Gins says yeah but she wasn't born says ah but But does that only apply to a G? What if somebody so to speak becomes like a baluva? Are they also like they were born? We don't necessarily find that it's like they're born. But it is if you do chuva, you're like a new being. You know, you're a new person. You're kadasha. So when Rabaka so to speak turned himself around it's like he came to the scene you know Rabika came to the scene. So maybe the reason we have this expression because Rabika was a simple shepherd. He was an amaratz and he turned his life around and we don't necessarily I don't think we find that by any other t maybe except for hines that he he turned himself around from an amat to so maybe the expression means until Rabi arrived he came to the scene you know not like we said before until he taught Rab maybe not like the that he taught 24,000 until he started. In other words, Shabbaka is a reference to what Rabbi did with his life. I found in a safer this morning um the name of the safer is let's see if I The name of the safer is who says maybe it means he came from his uh earthly existence. He says he came from the sheep. Musa, he he rose up from his earthly days where he hated the and he came to serve the until he came like like he became rabbi and he was do the crowns of the letters. Okay. In any event, um, it doesn't say that might explain why these specific places. I mean, it's not a specific time frame. It should say it every time Rabbi Ka says something. Or why in specific places? I mean according to the first shot you know or the other shot you could maybe fit why those specific places but to show the cover of of maybe those specific areas even according to what I'm saying it's like it would come out what I said before till he taught those five so all the 11 examples and sh would be at that point in history but I guess you could say according to this like had Rabika not revolutionized himself This is something that nobody else would have been able to say. Maybe the other things, you know, even had he not turned it around, maybe somebody else could have come up with that. But these things would have never come to the never come to fruition until Rabi arrived, so to speak. One thing that all these perushim would not explain is the one time it says In other words, it usually says this by Rabika, but there is one instance where it says it by Ram Gamla. So, I saw another interesting thing and I guess this will be uh uh this will be relevant to upcoming trip. I this comes from the safer zam. He says traveled very frequently. He says traveled either to collect money for to encourage Jews or to to be mazar to support the Israel or to defend Klra to the Roman government or to teach. It seems that throughout traveling when he came back from his trip or when he came to a certain city of a foreign city and he ran to the base medish and he illuminated illuminated the eyes of the people in the base medish. So they use an expression. Here are a few examples. There's a story. They came from Paland Daren and the the boat uh was Mafy and Rabi didn't didn't move or Rabika says when I went to or said when I went to or said when I went to Gala or when I went to Africa or when I went to Turkey in Kaput Kaya or when I went to Zafurin and the usi rebin one time he was going on a boat he saw Rabi Ke on another boat or the Gumar came to Ginsik we find that he went to Rome thear from Sakim um that he often traveled but he then said he never would be the one to say in the base medish okay it's it comes it's time to stop learning therefore the expression is until he came from where for where from wherever he was you know he could have been in in a whole host of places. Okay. So that's another so it comes out if I'm not mistaken we we learned six per the says from the parades inim or he says he became wealthy the says from reaching the maj of teaching 24,000 that and he had the spark of mra We said it's also found in the we said and it's found in the um that from his previous existence and he became or this fin which I I actually like and this would explain Ram also. that until Rabika came back from wherever travels he was on. Anyway, this is a I think it's a timely topic during the spir and uh it's so to speak a topic that re is reoccurring throughout shasab the dash or anyway have a great day. Please stay tuned for this week's schedule. Um there's a possibility we do some of the daff um today, maybe this evening. Um because Tuesday night will likely be the this week's Shir will be Tuesday night. I hope if we could do it. So stay tuned for when we're doing dasha. It's going to be Monday night and either we have to do tonight or Tuesday night. Okay, Rabbi say have a enjoy the rest of the day. Cult of thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Recording in progress. You want me to according to the last wherever you are. Yeah. Everyone's travel every I guess in terms of being you know like tanoam you know tanoam I don't know I mean the the last suggestion was a uh did so frequently correct but then you throw in that's how yeah you know as a ni he didn't travel as Not I'm not sure. Yeah.