Understanding OCD and Anxiety in the Frum World, Meshulem Epstein PhD, Episode # 124

hi everybody Welcome to tonight's share with Coach Menachem burnfeld thank you for joining us on this beautiful Sunday night and being part of it tonight's year is sheer 124 and um the guy who makes the mattress is is out so we're just gonna go with his gametria was one one times two is two two times two is four you know a little bit OCD I guess but uh not a good Camacho but next time we'll get it but the next year is 124 again we always start off every week thanking uh people that are coming every week and telling people about it Amber Hashem is worldwide and we get you know messages from all over the world literally right Monaco yeah from all over the world and we appreciate it especially thanks to all the viewers that tell their family and friends about it they post it on WhatsApp they emailed around they're gonna say every week if the topic is not negative it's fine you can join when it is but let people know that you never know what's relevant to who and it could be really helping people just by letting people know about the share tonight have an open conversation about uh you know anxiety and OCD will get into it with Revenue and um if anybody wants to join the WhatsApp chats please WhatsApp me personally at 848-525-0066 you could save my number and your phone and every Sunday I will send you the flyers and then later I could also send you the the replays um to his website you could sign up to get the weekly emails and then you get the weekly replays that's shame you could be part of the coach family tree community like for those people watching this and you the the replay of this on YouTube please click on the Subscribe button and also click on the and the on the like button and every Monday morning uploads it you got a ding and you're not gonna share it up you can watch it please join start off always thank all of our advertising sponsors that promote us the liquid scoop here on Lakewood is always supporting us on the liquid in the liquid area Ariel Sharon Ellie and Ariel from Five Town Central special thank you to Kyla California from JC Andrews kind of always promoting us and all the Jewish digital platforms again if anybody's here the first time every Sunday night for the past two and a half years share 124. at 9 30 on this Zoom ID we have many different abundant different topics and it's been a while and we have a lot of big stuff coming up and uh next week we have a very very big share his name is Moshi Robert he's a robin Thomas River he's a good friend of mine he's been on once before he's a Rob and a therapist he has both Milas and he's going to be talking about is there a concept of too much therapy think there's a concept of too much therapy maybe we should get rid of all the therapists I have three more kids to marry you off so I'll answer okay so we'll push up the sheer until that's done let me know when they're married but the topic is is there a concept of too much therapy what are the roles bottom and therapists and do they overlap so um that should be something very interesting and uh we got the right guy for it so we'll see how next week plays out should definitely be a meaningful powerful program so please join us whatever nobody till tonight we have this awesome honor having world famous therapist Michelle used to be an old liquid residence and I was in Scranton Pennsylvania but in this sugiya and this parachute OCD and anxiety he is uh from the good Island so that's that's my uh my knowledge about how do I know because I had friends that use them so I know he's and uh thank you for coming on I'm trying to get back to him we're gonna start off first with opening with Coach monaster I know Coachman has anxiety before he speaks so it's perfect thank You Usher for giving me the exposure so I can get used to the anxiety welcome everyone to another sheer your Hashem we're up to 124 and with a lot of Seattle tonight we have a very special guest like we heard I mentioned to a few people were discussing OCD and right away they told me Sean Epstein looks like uh his name is out there it's an important conversation and there are many people who who are suffering it's not it's not something that we should take lightly and I was sitting and discussing with uh Michelle for a few minutes and uh sometimes you can throw a joke and it looks like he takes it lightly but you have to know that those those suffering and he knows because he deals with it it's not not an easy thing especially talking about people um in The Firm world people want to do things right and they want to do it and they're not sure they're not sure and sometimes it can be instead of getting them closer to Hashem it gets them further away and they're not they're not able to function in a healthy from elephant eats so it's an important thing to learn what am I supposed to do by the way for those that have admired that you say the same Palin Mata oh now everybody's thinking I'm not sure that doesn't mean I don't think it's OCD I think that's pretty normal because tonight was the first night and for those who live with someone someone in the house a close one who suffered from these from OCD or anxiety it's it's important to understand understand what they're going through and the truth is that if you don't work Hashem if you don't suffer from these I I promise OCD and anxiety that's really hard to understand what they're going through what they're what the other is feeling but it's important to understand number one what their what they're feeling number two what's my role whether it's a spouse parent a teacher because it could get a little tricky sometimes you want to help but if you're not sure how you can be enabling and sometimes making it worse which will hit tonight so these ideas come up in a lot of a lot of places talking about the first broadfish monastery should I continue I should say it again but even when I finish monastery again I'm not sure whether talking about I wasn't allowed to Daven talking about having a clean body govnaki comes out a lot of different Allah has come up or even checking the door every night before you go to sleep the gas making sure everything's okay and how many times you do it and then people have those thoughts that they just can't stop their thoughts go on and on again and again and again and again they would love to just relax take it easy and you know figure this is what it is now I can continue life but they can't so it's a big Sports to have with us tonight let me show them Epstein with us so number one we can understand for those who need to understand what it is understand what exactly um am I going through and what's it can I heal what do I do to heal where do I go what do I talk to and if it's not you if it's somebody that's close to you how can I help them how can I be there as a help whether teacher or parent or whatever it is so we should have Allah and we should be able to gain grow and become closer to our channels remain with a beautiful opening okay let's get into it tonight first we're going to do the shared position this is all the hundreds of people that are here now I mentioned the thousands thousand people that listen to it all the help you know that drop all the government interviews for them and also for this woman that had this terrible traged in the Caribbean her name is henya devara Leia should have a mouth and her I guess a child should have in the summer okay tonight was actually with us I'm gonna read your bio and then you're gonna open it up okay sounds fair here we go here we go show them epson's a license licensed clinical social worker he has been involved in treatment OCD the past 20 years and he has special interest in the intersection of anxiety and halacha he's The Clinical Director of the OCD and anxiety treatment center which Services the greater Lakewood Community he received a ba in Hebrew completed his Master's in social work at Maryland the university early in his clinical work he met with Jonathan Grayson PhD director of anxiety and however you say that Center of California in Pennsylvania a nationally known expert in OCD the training was beginning of a lifelong professional relationship after training with Dr Grayson Schumann again specializing in treating OCD and more specifically eruptly how do you say that I'm sorry scrupulosity group velocity okay um since then he has been in demand for trading and consultations in the U.S and abroad he's professional member of the obsessive compulsive foundation and thought that he has cultivated relationships with leading researchers and Clinics across the country since embarking on his career machine has spent countless hours discussing how lucky implications of his work with leading police came to dial them and most recently has given training for the base of our medical division currently has offices in Lincoln New Jersey in Scranton Pennsylvania he resides in Scranton Pennsylvania with his wife and children Epstein is supposed to have you with us we appreciate you coming in here tonight and spending your Sunday night with us floor is yours thank you thank you thanks for having me um this show is uh known for having um these Superstar guests like Jacobson and um everyone else who's been on it and so it's a big honor I also want to say that I don't know what's up with Usher and Coach Menachem but I don't know what this I'm jealous of their suicim that they have just helping so many people giving them inspiration and hope and there's some kind of subliminal advertising going on but I can't figure it out yet but really the truth is like I can't afford therapies I figured I'll just do it so really hats off to you uh really really um really terrific and um I'm fortunate enough to uh grow up in Yeshiva and be any be any achievement for a very long time so this uh career sort of came together in in a very good way so I'm going to start out um by telling you a little bit about OCD I'm going to make it first through a PSA public servants announcement uh and then um give you a little backgrounds and then I think that once we have the framework a lot of the questions are going to start to follow a certain pattern and people are going to really hopefully at the end of this they're going to have a much greater understanding they'll realize that it's very uncomplicated so um let me tell you a few things just off the bat people who suffer from OCD are in a lot of pain uh the it's a mental torment and at as as painful as it is they're excellent at hiding it very mostly uh very highly intelligent people and very very often high functioning people and uh you would never know it um that's number one number two I'd like all your listeners to know that when they hear the word OCD they should not think of cases that are portrayed in the media that uh are written for dramatic effect because not everyone who has OCD is walking around with garbage bags under their clothing in order not to get germs I just think that's one real example that was printed these are really the people that I deal with they're very high functioning uh accomplished uh professionals and um once in a while you'll get a severe case like the ones that you read about but that is not the norm that's number two number three I would like for people to be careful when they say um I'm so OCD or he is OCD first of all it's not a it's not a word to use just to describe uh a friend who's neat or yourself it was neat it's a disorder and the people who really have it throwing it around is really cheapens it a little bit uh and secondly a person suffers from OCD or they have OCD they aren't OCD and so I know it's a subtle distinction but when you hear it he's OC it's just uh jarring to if God forbid someone has it or those of us who treat it it's not the totality of the person the fact that they have OCD so uh that's just uh to advocate for uh my clients uh Menachem knows more about this than he let on when we spoke uh so I will say that uh these kinds of problems are discussed widely uh in halachic literature uh the stipler writes about it extensively he's when when someone when Rabbi a psychologist named Dr Greenwald also Thomas wrote him letters very often he would say I've seen many people like this I've seen many higher Bakers erasia so many many people like this so it is uh it's very common it's not something that uh just showed up so uh it's been around and the OCD normally attacks something which is most valuable to the person so if the person's relationship to Hashem is their most valuable thing the most important to them so the anxiety is going to threaten that thing just like a terrorist or a kidnapper you know the take away those kidnap Someone's Child why because they know the person would do anything for the child so anxiety will take something uh that's a very important to you so in this case it's the person's uh the person's Yiddish kite uh I'm supposed to come up with an inspirational story about OCD uh that's on my to-do list here tonight uh is there you know what there are hundreds and hundreds of inspirational stories uh I'll tell you this it's very very treatable uh it's it's uh one of the most um evidence-based treatments that exist in mental health and this treatment is very straightforward once again you the person has to uh you know be an expert and experience but the the the success rates are incredibly good and uh I feel very fortunate and people um have told me for example uh they when they're 65 percent better they said it was like going from black and white to color in their life it's uh you don't have to get 100 better to have a great life so people are constantly constantly getting better some cases more complicated than others but a straightforward case of OCD is um very very treatable and I want uh people to we're going to find we're going to ask probably about when and how and you know what's considered OCD and what isn't we'll get into that but but the people should know that uh it's they shouldn't be so scared about it and um they certainly shouldn't be scared to go get treatment for it that's uh that's uh that should be uh understood and um the good thing about treatment for OCD is that they don't ask you about your mother so you don't have to go into all that stuff you don't want to uh you know again it's a straightforward case they're not gonna you know go into your kishkas it's a behavioral treatment and we'll get into that uh it's very behavioral and directive and all you have to do is get the model and be motivated and that's all we have a lot of questions that came in I want to just clarify something and then we'll jump into the polls and the questions you just clarify what OCD is what it means and said in the beginning but I don't think you clarified it that's the general mouth that will answer a lot of the questions and then let's jump into it okay great so we're gonna Let's uh look at it like this we make it two columns O and C obsessions and compulsions obsessions are just intrusive thoughts that have two elements to it they uh they contain a doubt there's 95 of the cases they can't detain it out and they come with an uncomfortable emotion anxiety tension uh that kind of thing so again it's very simple so yeah that's all two ingredients doubt and discomfort under this the C column A compulsion is something the person will do to either reduce their anxiety or to gain certainty there's a function to that behavior so anything that does that is considered a compulsion I'll quickly give you five major areas where you find it number one is I think monogram said repeating something you do something I get this feeling a thought maybe I didn't do it right I feel uncomfortable do it again then we have checking people could check the lock they could check their pulse they could check their filling all those behaviors come from a thought that maybe it's wrong maybe it's unlocked some kind of dangerous thought so for someone who learns the gemara that um villain a head that doesn't have twilling on it is uh is in trouble so they can get oh my gosh maybe it's in the wrong place that's checking number three here comes the interesting ones reassurance sinking that's when you involve someone else in getting your anxiety down or being sure you ask your spouse you ask your parents you ask somebody ask your friend and the pa the person being a nice person will say yeah don't worry they're worried they're worried that's just reinforces the cycle that's called reinsure reassurance and that's where rabunum come into the picture talk about that later number four is an invisible convulsion mental compulsions so sometimes those person will get a down in their head and they'll just try to talk themselves out of it logic um clarifying things so when people think that they're obsessing really what they're doing is compulsing they had a question and they're trying to answer it and we don't see that they just in their head okay and the last one is the fifth one is also invisible it's avoidance you avoid the situation in which the uncertainty could come up so for example there are people who don't have any milks in their house we're not going to have milk there's no Milkshakes that way we won't get into any possible of questions we're just we're not allowing the situation to come up somebody once never had any power of in their house because power is very sneaky because it could go either way become military conflictions without telling you so these are all not doing something in order to avoid the uncertainty so that is the basic framework when we do treat for OCD what we're trying to do is help the person raise their tolerance for uncertainty so just like there is uncertainty in the world in general there's uncertainty in the world of Allah too and I want to urge anybody to ask any question no matter how strange or provocative you think it might be please ask it and or if you think that I'm uh going off the reservation uh yeah call in and ask and challenge it uh because that's what this is a conversation that's why we're here tonight exactly you got it beautiful opening I just want to clarify it after all the things you listed I think were basically all certified so questions on how we're going to get help was uh yeah most people have one of those dangers not all so they seem pretty common to me just being honest okay let's jump at the polls and then we'll get in again the way it works is anybody has a question text us upon us a lot of questions go first we have time we get to the text questions a bunch of emails came in and we'll try to get to it and the Machine was here he's the expert in the field of anxiety and OCD if you have a question about yourself let anybody ask it easier to answer it with a lot of clarity on all these questions let's start the three question Paul here we go three questions oh I forgot what Paul is here you know you got it and that's where you see the ball I forgot what the ball is I I now remember I'll tell you to pull afterwards I'll put it after after I read the three what percentage of people do you think have clinical certified OCD in your opinion zero to five percent of 100 people six out of ten people six out of ten of a hundred like six six six to ten MN are higher than ten percent of people what's your opinion about clinical OCD second question how do you deal with your anxiety four options be honest medication substance abuse therapy how do you deal with your personal anxiety on any level third question do you feel Orthodox Judaism Fosters OCD washing your hands all those different things that we you know deal with yes no just it's an opinion it doesn't there's no right or wrong yes no definitely a contributing factor those are the three answers the fourth poem so I remember what I want to write I want to make a question like this does this question bother you Capital small Capital small Capital small Capital small Capital small and do yes or no that's what I wanted now I remember this cruel yeah but obviously I forgot so it wasn't meant to be okay everybody answer these three questions and then we'll review it together over show them and then we will get into a lot of questions a lot of bunch of live over there and um try to cover as much as possible okay five four it's gonna show them you can see what people are answering now but they don't see it and when I stop and I share with everybody sees the final answer so you see the way everybody on well 565 people are contributing to their opinions and we get to clarify isn't that important to them 400 of them are my family members they're just on many different devices I think is this the sky is this the schizophrenia which part of the okay let's share the polls here we go share the results okay what percentage of people do you think have clinical certified OCD so we have wow very interesting results 28 to 28 both think zero to five or six to ten forty three percent of people have to people think more than 10 percent of people one in ten people have clinical OCD or moshula map student whoa correct answer uh the correct answer is 2.4 percent but that is I always thought that was a lot that's one in 40 people you're in a room you're at a Hasina and there are 400 people there you know you got some cases you know probably a higher number that's not clinically and certified well well what I mean is um they have clinically significant OCD so you can have subclinical OCD uh but that's not interfering with your life so that's like quirks and things like that right if it's subclinical okay the second question um how do you deal with your anxiety on any level 18 of people say they take medication three percent of people do substance abuse 49 of people over here I'm going to be talking that's the winning answer and 30 of people are therapy Michelle so um it goes like this here's my opinion and uh that's all I can give you um I would assume that immunity is the answer for anxiety that's not uh not a disorder so that means as Jews our first uh our first line of defense so to speak or our our perspective on life the moon and be toughen but when you when you cross that line into um clinical uh area not only is not the answer but it could be a problem and I'll tell you why because let's say somebody is um has anxiety and they're told that they they need to have a moon in Metuchen and they continue to have anxiety so now they have two problems they have anxiety and they don't have a moon and be talking so we have to be very careful uh when dispensing that kind of advice uh I think that uh is is going to be the answer when you don't have an anxiety disorder um and therapy and medication of course has their has their place and we're going to talk about that later probably um when medication is in order um in OCD treatment medication is considered a partial it only gives you a partial response so even if the person goes to psychiatrist and they break it and they prescribe medication they will always tell you do CBT do cognitive therapy cognitive behavior therapy because the medicine alone is not going to do it and very often the therapy alone can do it the last poll is do you feel Orthodox Judaism forces OCD 17 people say yes 34 of people say no and a whopping 49 of people say definitely a contributing factor amazing you can definitely feel that either Sky definitely upstanding yeah what's your opinion so so um there hasn't been definitive research but but uh all the research that's done so far indicates that there is no correlation between uh religiosity and OCD now I don't know if they did their study in Lakewood New Jersey or Williamsburg or wherever in in these enclaves of uh of uh from Karate jury but it happens to be um across cultures even there's no there's no correlation and there there was one study you'd have to ask my friend uh shout out to Jed Steve who's a researcher from researcher at Swarthmore uh I think that in some studies show that religiosity actually there was a little bit less OCD but the thing it's easy it's easy to see it that Yiddish kite is a fertile ground a fertile ground for OCD because we have so many rituals and this and that and the other um I would say that if a person's in an environment that's very high pressure and the pressure is about um pressure is about being adherent style up a maybe I could see how that might um you know bump it up a little bit but in terms of the research it's just um if the re actually that they say if you did if they didn't have it about the Yiddish kite and they weren't from they would have it about something else that's uh that's the conventional wisdom so um yes here we have a lot of questions people want to ask please Grill them let's do it you're on first hi there thank you for taking my call um I wanted to ask you that I have an 18 year old daughter who has OCD Tendencies her whole life she constantly stresses about making things straight and neat around our home should I let her or should I tell her to leave it alone at what point should I be interviewing perfect question thank you for bringing that to the conversation so um are we assuming you haven't said anything yet because you're a saint if you I um I try not to say anything I really try amazing um okay so here's how you you would uh you would approach that you would I I the first question I would ask is how upset would she be if it's not straight that's number one number two is if you have a obviously communication if you could have this conversation with her what is she free afraid might happen if it's not straight and once she is a if you can get that question answered then you'll know um if it's a sensory thing does she just like things straight or is she afraid that if it's not straight some train is going to go off the track somewhere that's not psychotic a person could have magical type OCD or suspicious superstitious OCD so um that would be the first person you would do have a conversation with her but let's say she said I just don't like it I don't like often her answer oh I don't like the way you feel so so then you have a you have a child who has a sensitivity which you as a parent are probably concerned that is going to get in the way of her life moving forward relationships functioning and um at some point she or she's going to realize either with your help or not that it's it's going to interfere with your life and there's something she could do about it in that particular case it would be their skills that people could learn to tolerate discomfort like mindfulness type skills things like that so uh you know I always ask people you know is this something you like how's it working out for you so if the person says something they don't like then the next thing is uh well let's let's get it taken care of you know so the first question is what might happen if it's not straight do you think anything crazy might happen just like it doesn't like you just don't like the way it feels okay would you rather not have that be part of your life and then there is there are therapists who uh can teach these skills is that answer your question okay yeah beautiful answer okay great Next Live question we'll try to knock out a few lives now and then we'll try to get some of the email questions okay I'm here on Zach I'm talking okay you're on sorry about that hi uh thank you for taking my question um this is a question more of like related to OCD uh I would maybe I would call it self-posed OCD um I just want to know you know this is a maybe a lesson I didn't learn properly in Yeshiva or I took a 10 extreme and I want to know what is the I never got the real answer it's more of like when tragedies were the situation which is looks like a there's a danger we have to Don for something and uh we're just reading to heal him and reading and reading but the things should get better and even after we've finished reading and we cry or whatever I tend to just like I'm still worried what if my child didn't get answered and you did get answered maybe it didn't go all the way and didn't deserve to get answered or even I had the same thing when the you know the young Titan come up from ello you know I prepare for metal I start so hard I prepared from Rosh Hashanah get a little bit exhausted Rosh Hashanah by push until the mkeeper and then Yom Kippur they say this is the end and then you know FTM people they say sukis is the elevatorium keeper and I I just sometimes feel I got the lesson wrong I know there is a right lesson there but there's just like this feeling of It's never enough like how do I like take that lesson whatever I did appreciate it but also strive more the way the common one us to um and balance everything properly and appreciate what we did and also have this drive to continue on so um sounds like your heart's in the right place because a lot of times when people are worried about their diving I don't know if this is you they have a an exaggerated sense of responsibility so a lot of times uh even if this happens a lot with children where they say feel them in their class and then unfortunately uh person whatever is Nifty or whatever the case is and one and one at one kid out of 40. we'll we'll think it's their fault and uh adults as well you know uh the the these chain tell them calls that go around are fantastic except for my clients because how could you not die for this you just took one little tool to get them over the edge and you were not present so so there's often an exaggerated sense of responsibility um that's I don't know if I sense that that much from what you said uh you know one of my clients once uh went to rev uh Jacob mayor Schechter is that his name in Erica yeah and uh one of the things he said was means that if it comes with pressure has no roots in holiness and you know this is a very holy person okay for those of you who don't know him he's uh he's a huge everything and he's telling this person a cloudy I heard it straight from the person like this is not and you know this whoever's asking the question that's not the way it's supposed to be so um let's take let's see let's shunningham Kipper so the person is worried no no it's just the speech I get you know Roshana we forget about our accomplishment in Errol and we'll come see him keep her buying if we're tired they give that I get that speech that now is the end and everything goes by now and we better put in all our questions and if I'm tired I feel guilty like I forget about all everything I accomplished till now and then comes to Shawna rabo they say now is the end and then Thompson say no no this is the peak of everything and like everything depends on this right so so here's this first question is your availab going up as a result of these species or going down I'm just pushing I'm pushing I mean maybe not up and not down I mean yeah out of breath out of breath let me let me quote you uh someday this is uh let me get the stipler wrote to Bianco Greenwald it's translated into English um let's see ordinarily a person may occasionally find himself in a situation where it's difficult to carry out a mitzvah so that he cannot perform it with the usual appropriate pleasure this is natural he sees this as a challenge and on the next occasion we'll carry it out with pleasure since usually does miss us a pleasure however the person who whenever he performs the ratsun Hashem science's soul and his energies contorted by feelings of discomfort fear attention and misery overdoing that mitzvah and on the contrary that's how it is for him most of the time and to carry out Commandments out of joy is the exception then this is clear proof that this was not hashem's intention this is from the safe air is I didn't find the exact page yet okay this is a safer with the correspondence to Bianca Greenwald to to the stapler so the person uh you hear these um what I used to call them scarier pants off schmoozes you know um so there are other ways to motivate yourself and um so either so here's how is this is a good case where if it's not clinical you should be reading different smart how there is actually a safer written all about Roshana you know Kipper the simcha part of it it's called and or the other the other possibility is that there's something that you haven't you have anxiety and therefore anything that you hear you you're afraid not to do it so you're very easily influenced so in that case I would explore that but you have great Insight you know that it's not healthy so awareness is the first step okay let's jump to one uh email question we have a bunch of live still but I want to get through some of these questions okay go ahead I was diagnosed with OCD but I also feel a lot of anxiety as well can I get some clarification what is the difference between OCD and anxiety and can they overlap sure so uh the answer is you can win both and have both anxiety and OCD but they're very similar uh so OCD is only when you have those two things that I described an obsession followed by a compulsion and the compulsion is basically one of those five things when a person has anxiety they're excessively anxious about normal things and the response of the anxiety for the most part when you have general anxiety disorder is avoidance so that person is not necessarily having intrusive thoughts uh that they don't want they feel like they're just pushing themselves into your head uh that's that's not anxiety is just worry worry and if I can get my if I sometimes people will organize their life around not having to worry about certain things so they will limit their life and start doing fewer things in order not to be anxious and the anxiety will be feel like just worrying a lot OCD is where you have this boom you know some really um almost like outrageous sometimes outrageous but a thought that you're much more sh you're much more aware that there's something wrong with the thought most of the time so you can have both you could be a a very uh worried person and um and then that would be you know we'd have to work you have to deal with that and uh ocd's uh you can have that as well right but I would say though I would treat them both very similarly where the person who has anxiety instead of avoiding whatever it is they're afraid of we would purposely accept whatever the worst case scenario is a practice accepting it and we'll get to if you want to learn about how the treatment works we'll get to that uh what what exposure works but the idea would be just like an OCD we we could we get the person to do exercises where he he uh he faces the worst case scenario so through an anxiety I would do the same thing even though it's not it's it's uh more normal type things beautiful okay um let's take another Live question you're on oh hi um my question is I have a nine-year-old daughter who since the end of the summer she started displaying OCD Tendencies like she'll just asking me is it okay if I touch the table and then I touch my mouth is it okay if I the paper touched my hand and then my hands out to my mouth like all these like reassurance questions and then like so also like in general like everything is like is it dangerous like oh um not even touching just in general like is it dangerous that my neck let's say my shirt was too tight on me like something happened everything got dangerous so my first question is it came out of the blue so like should I be worried like white all sudden happen number two is like how do I respond because I don't want to feel like I'm enabling cards every time I say oh it's okay or what do you think she'll say like she knows it's okay but like she still keeps asking me so like I really have like no idea what to do so you just like tell me like a guideline or do you think she needs therapy or could I do myself okay perfect that is a question that a lot of people can relate to so I'm glad you asked it so this is a very good uh time where we could talk about what we call accommodation and that is where parents and spouses feed into the OCD and um feed into the OCD and uh it just continues and continues and continues um sudden onset OCD it depends how sudden it is like if it's really really sudden there's something called pandas I don't know yeah so that is pediatric audience sort of associated with strap something like that so I mean just the thing is she did have she has like she always had a drop in anxiety like it's not but she never had this kind of like OCD thing it's always like a little on the nervous side but not like anxiety you know what I mean yeah so so nine years old is um is actually [Music] um right around the age that it comes out in children so so number one accommodation so what do you do if you're not going to come that you're going to feel really mean if you don't right that's what you're from mothers so um I would do this first there are a lot of good books for parents okay um she's nine so there's a lady named Don Huebner h-u-e-b-n-e-r something like that on Amazon what to do a whole series of what to do when you worry too much and then there's one specifically about OCD what to do when your mind gets stuck and it's they're very very well done all about all different CBT but kids read it you read it with your kid your kid can read it themselves then there's a book um uh freeing your child's but most CD by a lady named Tamar chansky you know if you read that book that's for parents you will number one understand what's going on beautifully and uh and then you'll know when it comes time to seek treatment if the when any diagnosis in what we the DSM which is the psychological uh manual the menu of psychological disorders uh it always says does it interfere with their social occupational or academic function so that is usually the line where you know the person needs help so you would I would um once again uh have a conversation are you afraid what are you afraid of you know they're usually pretty articulate and then um how much does it bother you and then uh you know would you like to speak to somebody but I don't have a problem I'm not like uh you know enough for schlepping ever you get to therapy so you know you could you could you could try to you know do something yourself but the idea is that um parents who have an anxious child need to model two things acceptance of uncertainty and acceptance of imperfection so you could look for opportunities to um uh to say oh you know oops this happened or oh well or I'm not sure how this is going to work out but we'll figure it out meaning you're not you're not continuously planning for the future so you say those things out loud you're modeling that you're can live life with some uncertainty you don't have to know everything right now but uh definitely keep an eye on it beautiful let's go to the next question here we go you're on hi um I have like Tendencies to be OCD and sometimes it gets it makes me feel like I dislike some Mitzvahs like for example like Mikvah or other things how do I get past that okay we got quite a few emails like that by the way okay so I don't know I mean if I was terrified when I did something I wouldn't like it either but it doesn't mean you don't like the mystery it just means you have anxiety so but you know this is what I said before you don't have two problems just have one problem anxiety don't have anxiety problem and the yitter Skype problem so um you probably don't have a Yiddish guy gravel especially since you're worried about having a Yiddish guy problem so you probably don't have to hear this guy problem but but there has to be a way for you to do that mitzvah without it being um such a burden it's not meant to be that way so I'm not sure uh if you're having uh a lot of doubts about something you have to repeat things do you is a huge huge Topic in OCD um there are women who spend hours upon hours in the in the mickville you know doing the khafifa and preparations and and there's also a lot of other uh other uh other rules um every every um young married guy who comes into my office I say okay so to keep your eyes closed in the bathroom oh yeah eyes closed lights off you know so because they don't want to see nothing so uh I don't know you know you got to find out if does it sound like you do you have doubts do you have intrusive doubts about what's going on what you're doing yes yes yeah so so those doubts are just produced by anxiety and there's no end that means you cannot answer every single one of those questions but if you answer one there's another one right behind it there's going on forever so at some point you and me and everyone else have to okay now if you don't have anxiety you sort of intuitively know when to stop but if you have anxiety it pushes you and pushes you and pushes you even in in even a ready as far back as the mishnayas we have this idea in in two places but one of them for shorts or places one of them is talks about checking for comments so they said well what about if you check the room and you saw a rodent right uh you have to worry that it took comments from a one place and put it into the place that you checked so the mission ends off and says well if you have to worry about that then you have to worry about it they're brought from someone else's house they've heard about that you have to worry that it brought about them from uh the next neighborhood if you worry about that you have to worry about herself there's no end so even seeing the mishnayas they're not telling you we guarantee you there's no comments in that room they're just saying there's no end to that question so you got to let it go so but knowing that is if you have OCD knowing that doesn't help because whenever there's a conflict between logic and emotion I'm betting on emotion every time so uh you would need a a therapist to design exercises for you where you could literally raise your tolerance for uncertainty and discomfort almost like a um a thermostat so when the thermostat is this high so the so the the air conditioning doesn't kick on until the heat reaches a certain point if you have OCD it's down here and all you worry starts kicking in at a much lower level so actually behavioral exercises could just raise that and then you won't start getting nervous so around the area where other people might start getting nervous or ask a Shiloh so you sound like a uh very textbook person who could be helped is that helpful yes thank you it's Locker what happens if you don't trust your therapists Oh you mean like a Harry from Scranton that kind of therapist well he wants to make you feel he wants to make you feel good oh I see but at the end of the day you're still not sure if you did it right oh that's a beauty and um that is true that you have a brother who looks exactly like me this might not even be Mitchell Elementary okay which I do say that sometimes but but that's a fair question so how should I trust my therapist so if I'm the therapist I would do this um no Let's do let's say normal behaviors on a Continuum right uh line right so down here people who well down there people who don't care right up here are people with OCD and I always say the option of a rabbit because he's super special now in the middle all this is Norm normative Allah Behavior okay I am going to ask the client or in this case this person right here if you would do X what do you think you know do you think it falls in the middle I'm not I'm not going to be somebody's uh rough I let the I let the person decide and look is a good opportunity to point out two things one is I have something called the Shyla protocol okay I don't know if you uh this woman asks a lot of shilohs but that's typically what happens so a person can say would a non-anxious person have this child okay now sometimes a person can answer that question now it doesn't mean that I'm okay it just means we're learning what is an acceptable level of risk so when I say answer the question and say a non-anxious person wouldn't have this question what that means is a non-anxious person would accept this risk now if you're really really anxious the person will say I can't I I don't know how can I guess and I say that's what a guess is when you don't know but I can't I can't I can't so then you do what's called the gun test this is all part of therapy but I'm telling it to you for a reason and uh so the gun test is you have a gun pointed at your head what would you guess would an anxious person have this question or not now now I'm telling you this because because I this and the next thing I'm going to tell you I ran by many many and they say sure the person the person could guess who I asked they're not telling you that you're guessing right you have to always remember that they're telling you that's a legitimate way of conducting yourself in Allah I don't know if you're going to be right you're going to be wrong the Rob doesn't know the specific question but they're giving you a mahalos a a pathway to keep the halacha with some level of uncertainty and the second one is what do I think the rub would say this is an interesting one so the way the question goes is you just left the rub's office or you just hung up the phone what did he say and you have to go by what do you think he said but I don't know so guess I can't guess gun tests now it's interesting that Rabbi forsheimer loved this one I was really surprised he said yeah I like that one better than the other one what would the Rob say now you have to be careful because you've talked to a London that's why I said you left the rub's office because if you once if you're in the rub's office okay he's saying this I'm saying this he's saying this I'm saying this B you have to go through the whole thing with the guy no you left what did he say so uh there there you could you know that that's that's a um oh you the question was how do you trust a therapist that's how I didn't I didn't say anything I didn't ask in any L office I just said well what do you think you I think it's not good I think I didn't do it because it didn't work out okay so I have to do it again that's what you have to do the person the person knows when they're being honest and when they're not being honest now if they think in OCD 99.99 of the time it's a doubt so I'll say are you afraid you didn't do it good or you know and they'll say I'm afraid so that scenario where they say I'm sure which is one percent of the time I say go ahead ask the Shyla or do it again but it's rarely the case so if I'm afraid that there's comets in my house after I made mediko's comets I could just tell myself it's fine right so I don't know but it's fine all I know is you don't have to zoom I should check again it's not fine I can't live like I can't go and prepay stuff like that because you're anxious oh yeah right so what we're gonna do is if you can't go into pay stuff like that what we're gonna do is you you you have to do a the cure for OCD is here's the sentence frequent and prolonged exposure to the feared stimulus results in habituation habituation means getting used to something so just telling myself something is not going to work you have to go to Michelle and Epstein and in in uh in August he tells you to take a handful of Cheerios close your eyes and throw them so you don't know where they go and they're already preparing in August for the possibility because there's comments in your house now what do you mean how could you do that well I don't know do you have children do they eat Cheerios need I say more I mean do you know where they're putting all their Cheerios well I try to make sure yeah well your kids are going to eat therapy if you're chasing them around the same with your Cheerios so what you see what I just did I just made it normal I didn't even I didn't passion people have kids they throw Cheerios right so what you so it takes a while a little a few months of treatment not that many to gradually get used to the uncertainty so just saying something to yourselves isn't going to do it you have to do these exercises but it really works very very quickly very quickly uh it surprises me still not quickly but it's not a one-time thing it's a it's really a getting used to the water kind of thing so you have to get into the water and stay there in order to get used to if you jump out and do a compulsion or do some safety Behavior you're not going to get used to the water so uh I don't know so the therapist really does not have to have anything to do with what the halacha is so um if the therapist is is good you know you don't have to have this fake sperm screen behind you to boost your credentials yeah you could just ask them what what do you think everyone else does and that's it so everyone else does that or sometimes when it comes to the dominant question I think I'll show you someone mention it does do you what do you think Hiroshima does what do you think he does when he washes his hands does he watched it you know 50 times I'm not we're not saying those things to talk The person out of it we're saying that to show the person that there's uncertainty that everyone lives with Shiva didn't get a memo how to do an eagle vosser perfectly everyone's in the same boat so it's just about understanding it's all about the level of uncertainty or risk and looking around and seeing okay what's a normal level of risk to accept I'm sure we have a lot of questions live and we have a lot of copper we've really covered anything so we need a put it both hands are shorter no no no whatever you'd be faster [Laughter] okay you're on next hi I want you to know um why it's like so um look down upon in the Jewish World with someone has OCD or anxiety um more as in the non-dressed world it's like they're taught about it or their teachers are just much more open-minded about it and let's see I'll give you an example like my sister she suffered with OCD when she was younger and because she wasn't taught about it um when she was younger she felt so embarrassed to like embrace it and now that she's older she's having so many issues and that's it also I'm like if someone has OCD or anxiety or is on medication like automatically there's something wrong with them well that's a fair question uh it's a little more of a um cultural socio-cultural question I don't know the answer it awareness is growing people know more about it I don't still don't think they're talking about mental health except for I teach in evasiakov 9th to tenth grade so in our school we talk about it a lot we have coach hey Olsen I think we have Coach we talk about it oh yeah right we have this right exactly so uh but but uh but it is true I don't know if they look down at it you know it maybe yes or maybe you know when it comes to shizukam though it's getting better well okay all right what can I tell you it's getting better um are getting more uh having a better understanding of it and what happens is let's say a person discloses on uh that they have of your anxiety they will give the other person the therapist's phone number and so if the therapist is fair the the the person will have a chance uh if the other person is not tolerant of the person's anxiety Then should it was not for them yeah one second one second all right okay sorry continue that I I wanted to be concise I hope you know it's a it's a fair question let's go to the next question hi hello I'm I'm talking from South America Chile so thanks for the for the for this uh opportunity to ask I I was wondering if have you heard about kids that have been diagnosed by Panda by OCD caused by pandas and have you seen what's the treatment that you have seen most successful all right tell us about pandas but I I wanted to ask about that right so uh I don't have a any direct experience with pandas uh the treatment from what I know is long-term antibiotics uh but I also think that they need this cognitive behavioral treatment as well I don't think that the antibiot I don't think it remits goes away uh that quickly with the uh with with the antibiotics but uh is becoming more and more an accepted diagnosis not 100 percent uh uh it's not it's not only strep now it's other neurological uh type things so the typical treatment is antibiotics and cognitive behavioral treatment uh therapy okay let's go next Ariana hi I was I was just curious you mentioned earlier like the idea of exaggerated sense of responsibility so people you know be Carrie I just wondered if there are other underlying causes of OCD like you know like a maybe there's a guilt but I just wondered people would be to be used uh need for you have sticky even somebody with an eating disorder trying to you know maintain a certain sense of control you know unfortunately you can try to control others that way as well but do you find that that you know sometimes there is an underlying that has to be treated somebody might even be I don't know genetically just you know predisposed but but I mean just talking environmental factors right so um there's a significant minority of cases that have a trauma back trauma um so we uh what we try to do is uh what's neat what what needs treatment we don't necessarily treat the trauma first just because they had trauma but if we think that that's the the main issue then we'll treat the trauma but I have to say quite openly we often don't and that we don't ignore it but we often treat the OCD first it's the most prominent symptom and it will CBT will help and but we have our eye we always monitor for trauma um I don't know if it's always um control though or response that's a little psychodynamic but it it meaning a person can have a trauma in one area and have OCD and something completely unrelated and it's not controlled about everything it's a very specific idiosyncratic thing that they're focused on but yes trauma for sure I mean about probably five years ago now we were at a conference and one of my friends we're just going over to researchers and asking them could you please do more research on trauma and OCD but I think everyone agrees that there is there there is a decent percentage minority of cases that that have trauma but they're not directly related so what that means is that a stressful event could trigger OCD but it may not be the cause of the OCD it could be like you mentioned like that's a that's fair to check responsibility oh did like I don't know does someone die on their watch or something you know it's fair to look for that connection often it's it's not there it's more like there's a stressful event and the person just uh their OCD gets triggered but that's that's fair that happens that does that clarify it yes okay you're on hi hi um some of you have heard my story some of you have not I am 32 years old and I lost my mom about three years ago and my anxiety has been through the roof my PTSD shot up and covered spun around I'm in a facility and we're having a little bit of a winter Spike with covid and I can't control my anxiety I can't control my PTSD I'm losing it well it's a good thing I'm here ah I feel terrible he does the death of your mother have to do with covet are they related no they don't know something different but it happened like around six months before kovid hit and do you know what you have Steve from no it just I have I've had a lot of things happening in my life like deaths back back to back surgeries back to back to back covid popped up I had covered and then when we spiked again I tested myself three times in one day because I thought I had it right is that what you're anxious about or you're just anxious in general I mean just in general okay yeah all right so we can't do treatment on the show but he cannot resist asking is there a content to your anxiety or anxiety about are you anxious about something specific wife it's a four-letter word did you know that yes uh anything specific about life what's around the corner next for me because I'm also disabled on top of everything so I've been having surgeries back to back to back I lost both my parents my uncle my grandfather all in the last 22 years yeah okay so you're anxious about life but you really mean the other thing so uh I'm not saying the other thing I'm trying to spin it of course of course so um well I feel terrible for your situation but the same rules apply the same rules apply that means you can tell us more than anyone else that life is full of uncertainty I don't have to tell you that you could tell me that right so the thing is that there's nothing we can do to get rid of it that is part of the human condition how we relate to that that idea which is sobering right relate to that really determines our quality of life now you know you've been you've you've been you know uh face to face with some very very difficult uh circumstances the I'll I'll quote a uh a uh someone called the um oops sorry about that no we now we know we're telling the truth uh the the quote the the Guerra rabba the Emory emus one of the rappers he was in lives in uh Europe so he said the following I'll say in Yiddish and I'll say it in English if I can he said sorry to get the Rebellion is now I have to spit out all my teeth in English it means God gives pain but suffering depends on the person so it's very profound statement between distinguishing between pain and suffering so suffering is determined by how we relate to the pain now he didn't mean to blame the victim of course but he's just making a very important distinction between now I don't I don't know what I would tell someone like you is really really been through been through a lot let's say someone has a tinnitus right ringing in the ears you ever hear that disorder so it's very clear that the more the person is is fighting with it and paying attention to it and wishing it wasn't there the worse it is right so how he's relating to will determine that person's quality of life and one more thing and then we'll move on they actually did a study of people after surgery medical issues I think that I remember it was a knee surgery or hip surgery and they rated their their quality of life one group scored very differently than the other group and one group was the mindset was I can't believe that Alexis hurts how do we get rid of this pain I can't believe it I would be doing this and this and this if I didn't have this those people were not doing well then you had the other group whose mindset was oh my gosh this hurts like heck this must be what a knee surgery feels like oh my gosh okay that's what new surgery is what would I like to do today now of course it's easier said than done but I'm just trying to illustrate how how attitude and outcomes medically were proven we're shown to be different so um I I wish I could help you more you know in this uh in this in this format but but it's all about embracing the uh that that part of life that we have no control over so I do wish you the best beautiful beautiful really really nice okay next Live question you're on okay Amazon Dove here um just very I guess maybe basic question for those of me trying to struggling to figure it out exactly where is the line when it's kosher I guess kosher anxiety healthier samayam um and when do we say no this is something that needs some sort of therapy treatment does help us whether it's for ourselves or people we know I want to couple that with another question if that's okay go ahead okay so let's put that question together with a Daven a very long answer because I need to make sure I have kavana by the first brother told me once that if I overdo it I I once that that I overdo it but it isn't something that the must I'm not I'm not if I don't put on the first brother would you call this OCD okay so uh I was waiting for this question it took a lot longer than I expected uh I think someone actually typed in on the chat uh OC could cover up uh bronchiter from OCD and maybe so how do you know was that the question uh it goes like this uh let's say uh there's two ways to look at it as an outsider so we would ask okay is this is approving the person the way this Hashem or not okay actually I had this conversation with her matisseur Solomon I should should be well and um this is uh this is one of the things we came out with is it enhancing you everybody just remember detracting number two is that thing about what we read from the sniper that's a general in theory but I was asking the the kid this buffer or whoever are you responding to doubts or are you trying to have Cabana um do you feel like you're forced to do what you're doing meaning if a person is draining themselves to do something they could be going towards something but they could also be running away from something so there you want to find out what they're doing you know are they running away or they this is something that they want when we're talking about OCD we use the word egodistanic meaning they don't want it it just it's not me meaning uh uh let's say a person is getting thoughts of hurting people like aggressive OCD or right it's ego this tonic they feel it feels that it's not they feel like it's not them then there are thoughts that are ego syntonic it feels like yeah this is me so so the second question was do you feel like you're forced meaning I'd rather not be doing this but I'm doing it and sometimes I'll ask the question are you thinking about Hashem and this is going on now believe it or not sometimes before the question is even out of my mouth the person says no they're they're being Ovid the word the words or being Avid uh perfectionism not Hashem so um do I what was the question do I have does it do I have OCD I just want to die Domino longstrom and x-ray well it's a little tricky depending on the age because it's a fair because developmentally a teenager will do something very very intensely and then integrate it in a more normal way you know if you go into any Yeshiva you see ninth 10th graders they're chuckling up a storm you know and is not necessarily pathological so uh you you would uh is the person in distress like is is uh does it bothering them you know sometimes if they see a kid happening and he has this pained look on his face if you're ready it might be worthwhile going over and it's saying hey you look like you're pretty uncomfortable you know what's going on and let's say he says like Usher said well I have to have cavana so when you hear the words have to yeah for me it's a red flag because the person might be this All or Nothing type of thinker that it's if it's not perfect it's not worth anything and then you might be dealing with uh perfectionism which is a characteristic of OCD it's not OCD it's um it could either be a part of OCD or part of perfectionism in a in a different context which I don't know if you want to get into now so uh I have a lot more I want to cover go for it before that I wanted to stop but you could be thinking about Hashem but he might have an image that Hashem is dearth and waiting so that's perfect or he's scared of Hashem right and Hashem is scary and all of those ways of thinking that Hashem is not happy with what I'm doing so he's thinking about Hashem right right so so there you know you see people are asking these questions there's no way to find out unless you have a conversation with the person can't tell from the outside that kid you know believe this is true one of my clients went around Columbia robinovich who again is this noted to straw a very holy person and he said to him why does everyone think that Hashem is sitting behind the machine gun waiting to shoot you down very graphic so this kid may have the wrong idea about Hashem just may need a little tweaking in his ashkapha uh or if you talk to them more there are certain people who feel obligation in a very oppressive way like when he that's why I reacted to the word have to some people experience have to's as 500 pounds of pressure uh so that might that would be a problem uh because uh you know there's no way you're going to do everything perfectly so then you would sort of get the does this happen in other places what's the scope of the problem you know do you have it other places and if it is you're right it could be thinking about Hashem but um it would be a different animal then you know it wouldn't be OCD people very often the person is I say I mean yeah the person very often I shame is they're so focused on getting it right that the relational piece of the midst or that they're doing is completely lost so and that's about anything's possible go okay let's go I'm alive and I'm going to cover all the other questions okay you're on but you have three more left okay sorry you have all night tonight right don't stress what's confirming me we start when we started it was past my bedtime so we're good the the co-sponsor of let's get reals by the clay Soul who didn't send in a gamatria oh my gosh he's laughing okay so it's perfect we'll go straight to the second okay Live question you're on Hi how are you thanks for taking my call Great platform really enjoy it I have a 15 year old son who has definitely has OCD Tendencies and anxiety what happens when the compulsions that he does are things that are actually considered healthy in our world for example um he's a very big mosque and he's a very big learner not to uh not not to an unhealthy level and we would like to take a trip to RIT Israel for my son a different son's Bar Mitzvah in March and because of his anxiety of of leaving his comfort zone and not wanting to fly necessarily not wanting to go out of his comfort zone he'll use the excuse to ask like well I can't leave you I can't miss Yeshiva or um you know other times where he's there are certain things he's supposed to do he uses you know right he he uses the Yeshiva you know the learning as his crutch but we we don't want to you know we don't want to make him feel bad about the learning because he is a big mosman and he is a good learner and he's not doing anything obsessive so how do you balance like helping him get exposed to other things but not putting down things that are actually important so this is a this is a TR not tricky but in this case you can call them out on his anxiety without putting down the learning because he's not learning compulsively he's just you know he's just doesn't want to own up to the fact that he's nervous about whatever it is that your family wants to do so uh you know I I think you could do it without uh knocking the Yeshiva system you know uh is it about Yeshiva or is about or about being afraid of flying but if he says I don't if he really means that it's Bittle tell you where it's a go then you're talking about somebody who um either has perfectionistic or anxious attitude towards the learning so uh I don't know if that would be called a compulsion it's not in that in that case it's just uh he's hiding behind it right I feel like he he uses he he uses his anxiety he uses his learning and his piety um which is great to cover up a lot of anxiety and help him avoid things I see but the but the piety and the and the learning is not the Cure it's just a way to hide from it is that is that what you're saying oh yeah so well he's good he is pious and learn it also at the same time yes sir I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure he is so have do you ever use the word anxiety with him yes and we do what you mentioned about calling them out we do call him out um he doesn't you know he doesn't like it but you see that he's uncomfortable when we say it so you see there's definitely element of anxiety but he'll still try to convince us it has nothing to do with his anxiety has to do with the fact that it's Bittle Torah and he can't miss his rebbe sheer and he's gonna you know it's it's gonna affect his learning but my husband and I both believe from no you know raising this child from the beginning and he's been anxious and OCD that a lot of it is like you know well well first of all we can't weaponize anxiety and um you know call people anxious I would I would just go with it what does Israeli have to say you know just really you're so tired let's see what their Rabbi has to say the one who's Mr Torah you know I would I would just cause Bluff yeah we've done that no and what has happened we said that to him and he said yeah I know my rubby's gonna tell me to go all right here we go so and then oh then that's such an opportunity what might be happening here if you're ready would tell you to go and you don't want to go stroke your beard okay and say hmm I wonder what it is I don't you know or your husband right I mean you have her he's handing it to you right well hmm what you know another thing if either you or your husband have anxiety it would be a great time to uh tell them you know Mommy or tati or whatever you know we struggle with this too so that that is a very powerful uh parenting tool and it's also a good thing to do I'm sure let's go take a little turn over here now that his return is 11 o'clock we go with different angles over here hey Matt it might sound crazy but my spouse loses it when I chew gum I mean loses it out of proportion first is that something that you deal with and second isn't it the way to heal this problem through exposure so shouldn't I be doing it and to help her and exposure and help her get better by cases of gum yeah so uh we have a rule that uh whoever that asking the question I hate to disappoint you but you can't you come on purpose I mean you could but you're gonna be sleeping on the couch that the rules we don't do exposures against the person's will but to take the question a little more seriously you're talking about misophonia which is a very very strong reaction to mouth sounds chewing burping uh Gump gum snapping slurping sometimes heavy breathing there is no really good treatment protocol I was just talking to some colleagues about it for misophonia what they're doing now is there's a guy Ezra Cohen who's uh I think he's uh he's uh setting up shop in Lakewood I think it's c-o-w-a-n who definitely does a lot of this work I haven't and what they do is a combination of exposures according to the patient's guidance you know what they could tolerate but there's also a cognitive piece because people to suffer from it it's they feel like someone is doing it on purpose it's like a it's personal so there's a cognitive distortion there with misophonia that they feel like they're being attacked so uh they they do the cognitive piece to straighten that out if possible and then they try uh not exposures but they have the person practice mindfulness skills and mindfulness basically is the ability to be in the presence of some kind of stimulus without having to react it could be a sound it could be a smell it could be a temperature it could be some kind of discomfort it could be an internal feeling an emotion the basic idea is cultivating the ability to be in the presence of something which is unpleasant without necessarily having to react that would be the treatment do you use mindfulness and meditation for OCD and anxiety oh so we do we do it for the discomfort part of it that's one time we do it there's also something called Act acceptance and commitment therapy which a big piece of it is mindfulness and it's about this thing about getting used to the discomfort and then doing something that you want something that has value to you commitment right commit to your values um then um but but during the exposure what I do is I do Erp straight exposure exposure exposure and then if let's say the person is 85 to 90 better so sometimes I don't want them always doing exposures I'll have them just let the thoughts be there and not react to them so I'll do it at the end of treatment or sometimes during the treatment if they have a hard time with the discomfort that the treatment entails okay here's another interesting question that came in my husband likes all things super straight for example on pesoff needs the tape on the cabinets to be perfectly lined up is this classic case of OCD or for another example is the the tassels on the carpets need to be all lined up straight what would you call this I would call this my father no I'm just kidding uh he's probably listening um right so let's but let's just look at it the same way what is the person afraid might happen if they're not straight that so let's say the answer is something bad might happen probably not the case um it makes me uncomfortable so um does it so it does it interfere with the person's social academic activation functioning the answer is yes because marriage is social functioning right so it's very hard when the spouse asks the question you understand I'm spoiled people walk into my office and like they're the ones who are the patient you know I don't have a the spouse coming in and complaining um so sometimes people are visually it could be a sensory issue and something this sense is um visual right so I can be sensory hearing I give a sensory tactile right the kids who don't like the tags and the clothing and so on but it could also be visual so um he could be really thrown off by things that are so uh depends how severe it is how much is affecting your relationship and once again a person can if they're interested train themselves to be used to that discomfort you know I I can't force the guy to but you know um there is one thing there is one form of OCD that is called symmetry that things have to be symmetrical um so I don't know exactly because I don't have so many of those cases to be ocp whatever it's called yes so let's either could be the person's afraid something's going to happen which would be OCD or it could be sensory I just don't like the way it looks ocpd is obsessive compulsive personality disorder where it's OCD is anxiety driven and ocpd is Rule driven so it's more about perfectionism doing things the right way not letting other people do things so they're not going to do it the right way and um you're saying basically everybody in Europe very frugal they don't spend money except in emergencies um so that's more uh perfectionistic those people there are different [Music] um see if I have it here yeah they actually have it right here there's actually two types of ocpd there's the anxious type which you're describing and then there's the Hostile dominant type which they drive everyone crazy and they can actually be a little bit abusive to others because they have to do it that way because it's the right way and it could be that they're right but still everyone having to toe the line is uh they really uh they they really um are abusive anyway so it could be either one of those things could be ocpd but that would be you would see that it's a it's a trait meaning any personality disorder it's a trait it's part of their personality rather than something bothering them from the outside pardon if you're afraid is the treatment of Freedom it's also exposure um the treatment is it depends how severe the case is but let's see someone is perfectionistic we can uh have them be imperfect like somebody who says the sub the lunches must be ready the night before school you can do it in the morning even though you wake up early because it must be done at night correct is that ocpd is that it well it depends if it's rigidity rule it's been being sticking to the rule so I don't know if that's ocpd but if it's interfering with the person's life you can I had once a client who was an engineer and they're all like that so uh this guy was from Finland not Jewish I didn't come from Finland to see me but he was from Finland and everything was perfect literally with the tassels and the cleaning everything and always on time to work he drove the same route to work he drove the same brand of a car every single time it was amazing one time he did it himself I mean wait this is what yeah I'm going to tell you so what's good about him is he followed the rules of treatment very well also we so we use it to our advantage he mummish turns his life upside down we did we did he did everything illogically he came a different time to work every day he drove a different route to work every day he bought a different brand car he didn't dust this house until he could write his name on the dining room table it didn't fold his laundry and when he went through a movie he came 15 minutes late so he didn't know what was going on of mine his whole life changed now I give him a ton of credit he was able to do it but everything he had friends he became the flexibility that he that he was able to learn really opens his life up now not every case everyone has is so amenable to treatment this is probably more unusual than usual but he was a real engineer there's a right way to do it and the wrong way he had to uh the manufacturer things to tolerances of like thousandths of an inch and that's that's what it that's what it uh that's what his job required that's what his personality was like so sometimes it's exposure um sometimes there's a there's a TR there's a a profound lack of insight which is uh common among a lot of personality disorders and if that's the case you have to think it's been root this is already clinical clinical material where you just talk to the person about okay what will make your life work better forget about when these first people come into my office the first thing we settle on is I say you're going to be right every single time okay so we're not arguing about right you're always right now it's good you should all use it it's very good at uh you know takes a lot of fun people are fighting and so you might see your right you could be right no not to be manipulative you did you know we're not going to get into it about whether you're right or wrong so let's just assume you're right and let's get down to businesses to make your life better you know and they are right A lot of the time unfortunately they're like wives let's go next Live question you're on hi um okay so my husband suffers from extreme debilitating um anxiety depression and OCD um he's been through medications and stuff like that for some reason medications have a very hard time they haven't been working even though he's tried a lot of different things but um specifically he's dealing with OCD around his eyesight um he's hyper focused on his vision he sees gliers he um strong colors he went through a a period where he was seeing black and white um to the point where it's very hard for him to be awake because he's it's so debilitating um he he feels like he is the only person in the world with such an OCD um and he actually asked me to ask the question he was curious if you've heard of it and also what the treatment protocol would be for it I have a client right now with it not kidding around I it's not 100 true because he's 99 better but uh like the floaters and the flashers and the and the retina stuff is that what we're talking about like something wrong with his eye so there's nothing actually wrong with his eye yeah you and I know yeah right yeah sure he knows that also yeah of course he does is most people have such good Insight you know so so the the knowing that nothing's wrong like we said before has nothing to do with the disorder it can no and no one know and you'll still be nervous so I don't know if you're here since the beginning of the show but the uncertainty is medicine reassurance is poison now I don't want to interfere with your relationship but the only way out of this and I don't know if he's what kind of treatment he's had or the right treatment or some people need inpatient treatment you know but until he accepts that he could go blind in five minutes from now he's not going to get better now I say these things all day so I'm used to it it's brutal you know but uh but like I said in the beginning of the show everything is going to fit into this model of intolerance of uncertainty versus acceptance of uncertainty so I don't care what it is whether it's a guy going blind or it's I don't know I mean I I I had a client who thought that he was his brother's father by accident I don't know we gotta accept the possibility that your brothers and moms are you know or uh the the human mind is capable of uh has a tremendous uh capacity you know John Grayson once said that people with OCD have a great what does he say great imagination for uh looking out for danger so they can uh they can create scenarios that are very very creative um but here's a good example also where most cases are about something that's real that means uh Renton detachments are real floaters are real Buster McCollum is a real rule right so they're I don't know if from what I understand from him I don't know if it's the fear like let's say that he'll go blind I think it's actually the distraction of okay so this is called a neutral obsession and they are sometimes the worst so blinking breathing don't like that um a neutral Obsession could be a song in the head disease it could be a billboard that you don't want it in your head so so you just the same thing if you accept that that thing is going to distract me for the rest of my life life will be easier same thing with the guy with the blinking uh but I'm not going to be able to learn I'm going to this I'm going to that okay that's possible but if you fight it the more you fight something the more it's in your consciousness and that's just again this is a much more mindfulness when someone has a neutral Obsession I actually a lot of this mindfulness stuff where you allow uh you allow that thing to be there uh so that would be a neutral Obsession if there's no feared consequence except they're the fact that it's there it is a neutral Obsession and uh there's a section on it in John Grayson's book Freedom from obsessive compulsive disorder I don't have to go but I have to excuse myself for a second I'll be right back okay it's all on you now beautiful take over yeah yeah I think very important a spouse or anybody instead of saying don't worry you're fine you say yeah it could be that's the way I understand it's just basic um um the way how you react somebody says I'm not sure if I'm feeling well something is wrong I don't know I'm not sure I don't know instead of saying you're fine don't worry you're fine so you're you know you say instead of saying you're fine don't worry you say Maybe could be and uh it's very uncomfortable to be there and I do talk a lot about this uncomfortability takes us back to what I talk about a lot is running we discussed it many times and this goes to everybody not only OCD and anxiety because we're always busy and doing stuff always busy on our phone and if you want this if you want to see how it feels try not to do what you want to do and sit there and don't do it don't pick up your phone don't do the next thing and see how you feel okay see how long how long did you sit without a phone uh you're talking crazy enough enough let's talk reality now now I'm taking it personal let's go to the next Live question that will repeat it to Michelle when you're on hi hello hi um I would love to know um about if this form of OCD correlation of OCD I know it's on the DSM but I'm wondering if it's a real kind of OCD and how do you differentiate between real relationship issues and relationship OCD and how do you heal from it I mean could you specify what relationship OCD is I'm not familiar so what I know about it is that you're obsessing just like you obsessed about let's say you obsess about by your hands being dirty so you're obsessed about your relationship and your compulsions would be like will be like reassurance getting reassurance among the people that your relationship is fine or checking on your relationship um I just I feel like I've bumped into therapists that didn't know anything about and I know it's not in the DSM but I'm wondering if it's if it's a real thing if you see clients with it and how do you differentiate between a real relationship like how do you realize if it's a relationship issue or if it's a OCD type that's fair that's right so I don't like the fact that they made this thing called relation rocd relationship OCD yes it's a thing but as far as I'm concerned it's the same thing as every other OCD I have a I have an intrusive thought it can go a few ways I don't love do I love my spouse or it can go doesn't my spouse love me and then the compulsions uh I don't know personal check do I love her I would you know um I'm serious by the way uh you know I don't know what it's supposed to feel like really I love her or or if the person gets annoyed by their spouse they get freaked out because it means I don't love her oh my gosh is so so yes the answer to the first question is it sure is a thing I don't know about the DSM I think it's just part of OCD but um how do you know last thing goes to everything else are you having intrusive thoughts that don't make any sense to you and are you doing um compulsive behaviors to reduce your anxiety or gain certainty and those things are interfering so um usually you're able to tell I mean there's a there's a there's because a person is so anxious if you're talking about yourself are you talking about yourself yeah like I I like I had these types of thoughts for like a year and like Obsession about it and then I I ran into on Google which I'm saying Google's not the best place but like once I saw it I'm like everything makes a lot of sense sure and um yeah you like obsessed about every uh like different parts relationships you could switch from one Obsession to the next and I think it makes it I mean I guess like every kind of OCD it feels very real like I didn't mention this yet to the sufferer if they could look at their clean hand and it feels dirty it feels so real but the way it works is whenever whatever we're concerned about we are uh hyper Vigilant about it and then so what we're doing is we're seeking evidence to answer our question so now we notice everything oh she didn't turn the way maybe she's not interested or I you know I don't know if it was a you or her but so you start noticing and Gathering evidence and we have an intentional bias the research says an intentional bias to the things that reinforce the fear by the way so we're only seeing those things so between that and it feeling so real so uh it's hard but once you if you came to the point where you you think that you have that kind of uh OCD then you're ready you're ready you're ready for treatment one of my first clients was a lady who would it I think uh she actually uh thought her husband was uh not faithful now very from lady from husband the thoughts were ego dystonic meaning why am I having these crazy thoughts he's so not the guy to do something right so I still remember her she was in our ninth month crying on my couch anyway this lady today goes to support OCD support groups and he yells at people you gotta do exposures you got to do exposures she's like uh a real cheerleader but it was excruciating like we did we exposure means you do something to bring up the worst the possibility so I'm embarrassed kind of embarrassed to say what we did to her you know we had him go to Atlantic City he didn't really go to Atlantic City he just went to you know on Route 70 and stayed in the hotel there about we made him reservations for all kinds of stuff in Atlantic City which she did we she did it and he and I just wanted to block the bar yeah yeah you didn't mind so much so but she's driving him crazy who's out of here in the background where are you where are you you know that guy you're driving him crazy he's a good guy patient guy so the therapy is frequent and prolonged exposure to what you're afraid of so we designed all these exercises that would bring up the possibility that he is misbehaving no compulsions no checking no nothing is better it's BR it's hard work but it works like crazy like crazy it's a I don't know it's like magic it's a little foreign it's amazing how it works if you if you if you make sure that you have no no safety behaviors happening and the person is sticking with it and they stick with the discomfort what they find out is that the song goes up up and they go down like that it's just Behavioral Science if you want me to explain it I could explain it but this is not a a clinical training whatever you want so uh if they can stick with it is incredible I mean remember you just got to find someone who knows what they're doing so rocd yes get it treated have a good life okay next Live question you're on uh thank you my question is is it um is there any correlation between um anxiety and emotion suppression uh and as a side question is there a possibility of getting rid of anxiety as a whole so the first question is I I don't think I can answer I don't know uh it's more of a um we're uh I'm not I'm not familiar with the research on that so I could look into it I don't know you know uh emotion suppression I'm not sure I don't know but uh the second question was can you get rid of it yeah fully at least well life has anxiety I don't know if you noticed do you have children yeah I I don't anxiety attacks I guess is more what I'm okay yeah right so yes person can have a lot less anxiety in their life if that's your question a lot less to the point where you would be satisfied with the amount of anxiety you have in your life well you most probably between medication and and and and therapy I'm a pathological Optimist but I also think it's true yeah I would definitely say yes all right thank you very much sure okay remember so let's get to this question I think it's an important question I know it's late but I want to cover just at least the important things that I feel that we need to cover I was told that treatment of OCD is exposure does that mean if a person needs to break in order to heal is there such a concept of like breaking Allah for exposure therapy oh that's an amazing question explain the question because I I mean myself I did understand it so so the therapy is you do these Behavior examples Give an example I will you bring up the the fear so let's say the person's fear is uh the fear is uh mixing meat and milk so we have to bring up the possibility that of Buster the call of mixing so a lot of people are very nervous about this therapy because oh my gosh I mean in order to get better he has to he make possible Olive because that's an exposure I have not only have I never had to do that which I could have every Heather in the book if I needed to I never even had to get a a header to do any exposure ever and I'll tell you why it's a very common misconception A B A lot of people who don't have the Tor background are nervous to do therapy or Sometimes women are afraid to specialize in because I have to know Allah no I worked do I I don't know I don't know I don't speak or anything so um it goes like this it's a very so I want to clarify you don't and oh here's one more very important point there are rapunin who have written shubas about treating OCD um uh I don't know if I should say names there's a beautifully written tuba about somebody who was uh foreign I mean even though it's it's great to learn Torah it's completely unnecessary because if that person let's take a case of basketball college and if he's worried about uh making tray for reading traits the goal of treatment is that he should live with the possibility of eating tray for making trade to the extent that everyone else lives with that possibility we spoke about that there's an acceptable level of risk in every area of life and in yiddishkai so the example would be I would have that person do something that would happen in the course of anyone else's life in their kitchen that for them would trigger their anxiety about maybe possible olives happening but it's a completely everyday Garden variety uh event I'll tell you just happened now somebody um they're afraid this is on the books so this is a great example uh that if there's meat between your teeth after eating meat so they talk about whether that meat will make you lasiks or not if you find it get out you swallow it if you don't so this person was um compulsively flossing his teeth to make sure there's nothing in there so let's let's set it up the fear is maybe there's meat there meaning you maybe there's meat there so that's one maybe um maybe it will um render me Flay shakes later on at some time and uh and eventually The Next Bite Mill clicks within whatever six hours I'll be eating you know be over uh so do does a person have to go that far to to make sure that they that they don't have meat between their teeth and the answer is no how do I know not because I'm a basic because I can look around and I know that the whole world is not flossing your teeth for an hour after they they have lasiks if they feel something to eat they've lost their teeth if they don't they don't now you see so I don't it's not you don't need to you just look around as a matter of fact there's you xiaomi that says that is basically what it means is if you're not sure what to do look around see what everyone else does that that is what the Gomorrah says because not everyone knows not everyone has a rabbi following them around they can ask them all their questions they're paying him for the money they say by switching to Geico so we we're all in the same boat that we there's there's a certain tolerance that we there's a certain line that we go to to avoid being either in Avera where is that line well somewhere in here if you're more conscientious here if you're more relaxed it's here now in that particular case since I knew the guy wouldn't do the therapy unless I spoke to a rough spoke to my favorite Robin and like what uh he he almost doesn't let me finish the questions uh is uh uh I said well this guy's you know um flossing his teeth can I tell him not that yes he should never floss his teeth like that now I didn't need to call the rub but I needed it to get the guy to do the therapy you follow so there's you can always find something that is within the the realm of normative Allah practice that will trigger the person's uncertainty and anxiety it will go up and go down and you have great exposures they don't have to do anything wrong I will not tell them they're not doing anything wrong I'll just say they're accepting risk I never I mean I'm I'm such a action they will never get a word of reassurance out of me because it's not good for them I think I'm dying what color flowers you want at the funeral like that okay you just you have to be a certain personality to do this but if you understand what what you're seeing right you have to that's what that's what the situation calls for it helps to have a good sense of humor but people are coming with fears like brain tumors and this and that and the other you have to yourself be okay with with uncertainty because these are very serious things so is everyone walking around with the possibility that they have a brain tumor yes so are you what's the difference between you and them well you're thinking about it and they're not that's all maybe maybe it's true yes any further questions your honor I should go check it out Maybe I should go check it out no I don't say anything I just uh here's what happens why haven't you called the rubber why haven't you checked it out I'm embarrassed I know I right but here's how it goes do you think someone else right now would go check it out at this level of um symptomatology okay probably not okay but you want but I want to I know you want to because you're nervous what would you rather go check it out or get better from OCD but you know I I can't force anyone to do anything but if it ain't this one it's gonna be the next oh one second you're gonna go for an MRI is it possible that the second you step out of the MRI you're gonna have a tumor start growing oh my gosh you might have to stay in the MRI we'll bring you kosher food don't worry about it one second so if we get to that point of trying to ensure that you don't have a brain tumor you'll be alive but you won't be living what would you rather so it's this kind of conversation where okay because the ocd's main trick is to try to get you to prove a negative prove that something is not and we take the bait and then it's it never ends how do you prove that something is not maybe it's not now it'll be tomorrow [Music] so here's here's one question before we wrap it up my husband really struggles with anxiety I have two questions how do I keep myself from getting annoyed and upset when these thoughts panicking about something and how do I help him get through it and calm down foreign [Music] let's see my husband right right that's gonna be the whole takeaway of the share by the way yeah you're like well that's my exactly um uh well they haven't lost my license yet let's see so again you see how it's the question is from the spouse from the it's so hard so number one let's assume that they're both know that he's anxious yeah so that's okay fine so being mad at someone for being anxious I I can't blame the person being annoyed I mean it is it's uh it's it it affects your life in a very dramatic fashion so here's where you you there's a relational piece and then there's an anxiety piece so um the anxiety piece would be feel so bad that you have anxiety there's nothing really the spouse can do except for um be with the person their anxiety and I said that very carefully because we we said to reassure the person is not going to do anybody any good and she's just going to feel depleted from trying to keep him emotionally afloat so this go this is a little bit of um marital therapy in a in a certain sense where um one spouse there's something called differentiation where I don't have to take on the other person's emotions and their problems it's a certain kind of emotional independence from the other person uh that being said that's a whole Parsha in and of itself but the so the first thing is how do I not be irritated I don't know you know Dr Torresdale used to say if you have pity for someone you can't be angry with them uh but the the person I said earlier in the program person is not responsible for having the problem but I my view is that there should be responsible for doing something about it so the spouse to do everything in her power to be compassionate yet firm that means it's it's hard very hard but to cultivate some emotional independence from the problem because you don't need two people who are sucked into this cycle of anxiety one is enough and if the she doesn't get sucked into it whoever asking then she's better able to help him I feel bad that you are anxious and you see how that sentence goes I feel so bad at you then the person saying that is free a lot more free to do whatever it need is done to get that person help but it's that's where anxiety and relationships it takes a lot of finesse um not to get sucked into that thing and it sometimes feels like I said before mean when you're not telling Sue to the person's problem you're not [Music] um you're not um connecting with the person over their problem but ultimately is very good for the relationship so the other whoever the spouse is who doesn't buy into the anxiety is in a much better position to help their spouse so a big topic okay we're gonna go to closing now a few minutes to think of a good after two and a half hours of talking need a good submission put the whole thing in a nice closing a different music for everybody who's here tonight especially thank you to show life Steve for coming on tonight and giving tremendous physic it's a very very I don't know so common but it's everybody's familiar with this topic and for the people that are dealing with it obviously how important is to talk about it try to get some guidance and try to get some you know and some you know down down to earth advice so again there's a lot of questions we didn't get to I'm sorry about that number one uh again tonight 124 tonight shares then there was over a thousand people at later everybody wants to join our what's up chats please WhatsApp me at 848-525-0066 and every Sunday I'll send you the flyer for the share that week and they're and they're gonna study the replay and go also to manageable.com to his website sign up for the weekly emails with the speakers and well the replays and anything that's going on in The Coachman Community next week we're going to have a very very powerful share please join us with your moisture wrap work from here Toms River New Jersey he's a robot very large tequila he's also the role of transfer Central Jersey artsala and he's a very sought out therapist as well so he's a Rob he's a therapist he's the he's the package so um it's a very interesting topic is there a concept of too much therapy what are the roles of robotum and therapists and do they overlap so um should we something very very special meaningful to this join let people know about it and join us next week everything is recorded.com if there has any questions please email Coachman gmail.com to hear the share on the phone share number 124 or any of the other recorded serum we have a phone number specifically for Coach 848 777 gross option one and you just put in the number of the shear or pound is the most recent share you can hear any share that we had um if you want to give out any information nobody wants to get a hold of you you can give an email you can give your phone number your address your social security number all your information or we could just send it to coach whatever you feel comfortable so people are asking for your emails I don't know what you want to do I see um I'll give my office number my my office email and I will try to uh you know I'll try to answer people so give that now and then I'll just finish the closing and then I'm not going to wrap up and then you so the office emails Michelle gmail.com m-e-s-h-u-l-e-m Epstein e-p-s-t-e-i-n gmail.com my office number is 732-994-3959 one second again I want to thank all the advertising sponsors the liquid school for promoting us Elena Sharon Ellen Ariel from Five Town Central and special thank you Kyla California from jcn for always promoting us on all the digital Jewish platforms we're gonna go to closing we'll go first and then show me a few minutes put all your feelings now this is this is uh what's it called uh Improv this is improv put all your feelings and leave it alone I just want to say I personally wasn't feeling so well tonight but I I feel much more calmer right now so maybe it's just your voice it's definitely working but um it's a very very it was a very very popular it's one again it reiterated a lot of people that text it and people sending emails and I was not able to get to them so they're showing me no diamonds that means you have to come back around too okay let's go wrap it up beautiful and Michelle and thank you so much and um it's it's good to hear that first of all some clarity understand what's going on for those who haven't you know those are sitting at home thinking they're the only one and to see somebody that deals with it and that somebody who believes that they can heal and there is there is um they can get some healing and they should get whatever they need them it's Hashem I do want to mention interesting about high functioning high functioning anxiety high functioning that means you know even those P those people who they don't qualify with anxiety and OCD but they still have these um anxiety like we mentioned very basic just getting out of your comfort zone it's very hard and you're not going to go to a therapist for anxiety in OCD because you don't have your goods you're doing good but at the end of the day There Are Places areas in life that you don't want to go to and you don't realize because you might be scared and like we heard tonight being okay being comfortable with the uncomfortability just with that exposure and I think and everybody can use it those who suffer from most of the anxiety and even those who don't to try out new things to learn to grow wherever you're going to do is always going to be new you're going to feel anxious it's going to be stressful you'll be worried you're not sure how it's going to work out and you call Michelle and say Okay Okay now what's gonna happen Okay and you'll go and do it you know it might not work the first time try it out again and that's how we grow in life and that's how we continue and it's something that everybody can use so thank you very much for being with us tonight and the Mr sham all of those who needs the healing and the next step in their life should be able to get it wherever they need it and it's Hashem thank you Maxton greatest pleasure um if you know I hope this is also discussed for uh worship Lima too all my clients who are suffering um I actually have a take a lot of their names um by the way mostly Robert is a rock star so everyone should tune in next week he's great a good friend of mine so uh number one OCD is not a mysterious monster um you see I hope that people see how comfortable I am with it I'm not afraid of it it's not because I don't have it it's because I I understand it by the way if anyone's wondering did he have OCD I didn't my wife wishes that anyway different story but uh no I didn't honestly um but but you saw that I hope you it came across that I'm not it's not a thing to be afraid of once you understand it it's a known quantity this is not some vague uh you know uh way out uh psychosis you know it's extremely extremely understood not only that it's quite simple the way is as uh people understood in my hope it's really just in his Elemental form is uh about embracing uncertainty and um and some people are are just a very sensitive to uncertainty I just want to coach monachum there there are people speaking about being uncomfortable there actually is a a research on people an anxiety sensitivity that that having anxiety some people experience it is more painful than some than other people it's a so just like ever just like um just like the other sensory things that some people feel it stronger than others people also feel the anxiety stronger than us very interesting because I was noticing my clients like what are you afraid of the thing happening I'm more afraid of the anxiety than actually the thing happening so anxiety of the anxiety yeah so I started looking into it and this is what I found that that people experienced uh the anxiety even uh differently and um this really is about life now when it comes in the form of OCD it's very circumscribed and about a few specific things but that's what attracted me to it it's really a world view meaning it's not about do this and you're cured your world view that uncertainty exists and there's a relationship that's not the Cure but very helpful because uncertainty is scary but uh but but just changing getting used to that idea which to some of us is uncomfortable then then your life becomes much much different and much Freer and to your points where we sometimes organize our lives around being not being uncomfortable if we notice that and we understand that uncomfortable feelings are normal or a normal part of life Everything Changes because we don't necessarily have to react to it that's what this whole act thing is I spoke about there's a great book called the happiness trap about this thing was interested um so uh people should know that it's a known quantity there are so many people that have it I go to this conference every summer there's over 2 000 people there a third are therapists a third are people with OCD and a third are their family members and just the fact to watch these people with OCD meeting each other you can you can cry from it they're sitting there in Utah and here and there and they think that they're only they're the only mashugana 1 in 40 people is suffering with this and it it it's very depending on how it's excruciating it's very hard it's mental torment so um not making jokes about it or using it as a tagline rather this is a very identifiable illness and the people who have it they're they're your neighbors they're your friends they're they're P they're a very successful professionals I mean that I have had the pleasure the exclusive working with is is huge I mean one of them I said your payment is that you have to be my favorite and I haven't seen her for years with this person half hour of his time he learns 24 7. uh so we should know that there is it's the I think it's the most uh treatable psychological disorder you need to go to someone who knows how to treat it but it's really it's not it's not a monster it really I've seen you know I don't know what you know coaching you could one you see people's lives change in front of you I'm no genius I'm not like this I just know how the system works people do it I look great they do the work it's a great great deal but the bottom line is like I said their their lives go from black and white to color the everything opens up for you so fi if whoever if you're suffering or your spouse is suffering um yeah if there there's so much out there and there's something called before I go the uh International obsessive convolves Foundation that's this uh organization that I'm a member of they have a website iocdf.org they have all kinds of resources there they have a list of providers now I think that list used to be more exclusive maybe there's more people on it now you know uh I I I'm there but I'm in Pennsylvania you know uh but uh you can find somebody who went through their course and how to treat how to treat OCD and maybe um we didn't get to the question next time we could talk about if you can get if a non-from therapist can treat from OCD you know if you have a blank slot you know some Sunday night where I don't feel like going to sleep you can do it yeah beautiful but everybody um you know I hope everybody uh learned something understood a little more about it basic uh building blocks of it and um know that there there's tremendous help out there and pleasure I hope that some people get helped look I told everybody to text you if they want you to come back so look at your text on the zoom sometimes people texted you oh really yeah let's ask well listen I hope I hope everyone enjoyed it uh now you know I just we're here to I don't there's something up with these two guys I don't know I mean there's so many people you know I get help and I hope people got information and hope and understanding and um and compassion for the people who have it they're sort of invisible so let's let's understand okay I just I I wanted to make advocate for these my clients I'm not such a mushy guy but I have to advocate for you know these people are just walking around you know that I see every day they're part of my life uh but they have they have you know they have 30 40 friends and family members and nobody knows you know so Let's uh let's understand that 140 people has it okay I hope this was helpful to all to you all my big fish games to you and we'll see everybody much from next week same time same place for much drop work 9 30. have a good night everybody thank you again can I take care