Trei U'Trei, Migui, Rov & 3 Types of Chazaka - The Lomdus of R' Akiva Eiger and the Shev Shmeittsa

this tour class is brought to you by torahanytime.com today's sugya is a major suggestion not just on your vomis but in shots in general our gamara and ivome speaks about something called treyutreco de Raisa or Trey Trace means as follows somebody asked about this I believe it was um Monday night triple director means as follows if you have two Adam against two Adam and now we're in a standstill now we're in a stalemate but we have a kazaka here that could direct us trade fake Circle the right to means despite the fact that there's a kazaka here nevertheless on a Biblical level it's a Suffolk we don't allow the kazaka to pass in the Suffolk that's what it means conclusion is now that means on the direction level we will allow kazaka to work so for instance if you throw a woman again it might be close to you might be closer to her so you would say it's uh two against two it's a it's Suffolk whether she's married or not no Midway right so we will allow her status quo of being an Asus to say on a Biblical level there's no suffix on a Biblical level she's still married I you have two items that say the Gap might have been closer to her it doesn't matter we will allow kazaka to say that on a Biblical level she is still married on the robono level it's the sake of that maybe she is uh not married but on the right level we will allow kazaka to work those are the two stardom of the gemara the havamina ISA I think tomorrow seems to conclude on now let us try to understand what is the back and forth why in the garage would not work and then work so there's a famous tysus in kraska sabatim and um if it's not famous yet maybe after this year it will be famous discussing a situation of two against two and uh two eight the first two Aid them say the facts were one way and the other two the second they didn't come and say the facts are another way and basically the gamara says it's a stalemate nigamar brings the macholicus there but for our purposes Texas has a very interesting question when two Aid him come and say the facts are different why can't we believe the other the second Adam believe them that the facts are not so because if they wanted they could have come and they could have said the first to Aid them are gaslonim the robbers they um they they're cheaters they're not reliable people they could have instead of challenged the facts of the case they could have challenged The credibility of the Adam this is what we call Amigo right you know what Amigo is migu believe me when I say A because if I was lying I could have said a better lie meaning believe me that I'm telling the truth because if I was lying I Could Have Lied much better that's the concept of Migo so Texas wants to know why don't why doesn't every second set of edem have Amigo they could have made a better lie Tyson says the truth is they could have instead of challenged The credibility they could have been amazing the second Adam Mason the second Adam is uh they could have said how do you know the facts are believe me that your facts are wrong because we could have said about you that you were with us in Dubai with the rest of the the Jewish World these days you know so um that that toaster says no that's not a good Amigo that's not a good Amigo because they would be afraid to be amazed them because lest they themselves become husam fine so that's such as Kasha touch this answers let me get the line then you can't say Amigo why did Amigo can assist the adem more than another two eight how could Amigo help Aiden even if he had another 98 Aiden with you they wouldn't be more believed so you have two against two so you want to know why can't Reuben and Shimon right Reuben and Shimon Testify the facts are this way Le'Veon come in and say no the facts are another way you want to believe leaving Huda because they could have made a better lie we can't believe in Huda more because even if Levy knew they had 98 Adam testifying to their position they wouldn't be believed more so if 98 more Adam don't buffer their sh their uh position then certainly Amigo wouldn't in other words this point is 108 them is not better than two Adams so why would two Aiden and Amigo be better than to wait them meaning in the face of adem when you have Adam against Adam you can't add anything to Adam because Adam is the ultimate proof then Teresa says you know what another another uh idea by two eight Amigo is not possible because when you're dealing with two people they're the way their thinking is different and what this guy with taina the other guy wouldn't taina in other words there's an idea that either that Migo would only work on uh Migo can only have one person if one person says something we should believe him because he could have said a better taina but if you have two people we're not going to say oh believe these two people because they could have said a better taina because it's very unlikely two people would have had the same thought process and and made up the same lie together okay so that means let's just understand according to the first answer of toy Swiss migu cannot add anything to 2A them and according to the second answer of Texas it's just that Aiden don't have Amigo because the whole psychology of Migo is we could have I could have said a better China but there's no way that the two of us could have together come up with the better time okay that means there are two answers in this each answer sort of has a uh a better way of looking at it um let's see ah what do you know okay now let's see the famous chuva of rubiki Vega two um this is clue and Rubik Cuba is basically Mazda gamara and here in he says that is foreign you could say simply that gazal were not mahmir by edem that Adam would make the kazak as if it's not here like the other opinion holds the trail Trace fakodarisa right there's a Mac like this trailer let me explain venerally here's the root of the makalikis if you hold let's figure the rights of under respect the racist relay that the same way we say two is like a hundred right do we we say two is like a hundred why don't we say let's take two against two they'll cancel out and you're left with 98 on the right side right the right side has a hundred the left side has two let the two and two cancel out and let's let the right side win because it's 98 against zero we don't say okay and you're left with the others it must be because twos kayak is strong against many groups meaning two Aiden is like 100 of them likewise the same way two Adam could destroy Andrade them two Aiden should be able to destroy to a dementazaka foreign was helping it in other words what's better edos and if two of them are supported by another two Aiden it doesn't add anything so certainly if to Adam is is supported by hazako shouldn't add anything how could kazaka be stronger than edos that was by the way the swara of the first answer of tysus that Amigo cannot add to because if doesn't add those Amigo doesn't add to edus so by the same token if adus doesn't like the argument like the swara of amigo yeah so rubikivago is extrapolating the same way Towson says Migo doesn't add to Adam doesn't add to edem a the other opinion holds the other mandamar holds like the other tariffs of tices two is like a hundred because all the proof is in the realm of testimony and in the realm of testimony two edus is the highest amount of proof in the realm of testimony but hazaka is in a different realm kazak is a different kind of proof the same way in the second answer of ptosis migu could add to edem it's just two of them can't have Amigo because the two people will never get their act together but technically in the second hand septosis Migo could add to them as opposed to regarding since the aidosis contradicted we could remove meaning this is like the second answer of thesis that's why this toast is over here um because if the second answer of ptosis is saying no I understand ethos can addos but hazako should be able to add to idos because let the edem cancel out and you'll be left with Amigo and that's what ptosis had to come up with as Farah that in the psychology of migu the migu uh doesn't work by two people so Rebecca Vega is basically saying the two answers of the gemara are arguing trade secretary are arguing uh based on the two answers of tysus by the way and then he says amigo why would it work because just like we say the kazaka could work so to legave amigo and then then something very interesting even if you want to say like the first hearts of Texas that Migo doesn't add to Adam you could still have a position that to Eden why is that he says even if you want to say like the first Terrace of Texas that Migo cannot Addus that's because the way that migu works is migu is evidence negu is proof Migo is clarification of what happened well it's like it's not Witnesses testifying but it's a concept we are all witnesses that this is truthful because the person did not claim this and therefore the logic of tysus would stand that it's not better than we would say Trey kamea but hazoka is kazaka is not proof the way works is it's not clarification and proof this is what the Torah says let's leave it the way it is in other words whenever you don't know what to do status quo let's just leave things where they are don't change to um we're going to establish it based on its original kazaka meaning saying you don't have to say that the gemara's position of allowing kazaka to work by Trio Trey is only going according to the second answer of tosus that Migo could work by Trader tray because Migo is different than aidos and therefore kazaka could work by train no you could say even like the first hearts of Texas that even if migu doesn't add to to Adam that's because the manner with which Migo works again Migo is a proof that what we're saying is valid because if you think we're lying We Could Have Lied better that's evidence that's proof so that cannot work and add to edus but hazako is not proof Isla is just since we don't know what to do let's just leave things exactly where they are gambitrade China and Rebecca veger says that a person never pays back alone within their Sony borrows money they will not pay back within the allotted amount of time would that hazaka talk in the face of Trey Trey so Ricky Vega says maybe even if you say like the gemars mascano trade face fake of durabanon that's only by a regular hazaka of status quo status quo could say leave it where it is but if it's the kind of kazaka where there's like a phenomenon a person wouldn't do this that's not a status quo hazaka that's an evidence-based that cannot talk in the face of treachery is like Amigos and then we say Trey kamea and even though the gemara concludes that hazaka could work that doesn't necessarily mean that all kazakos would work now what would you uh say regarding and you have a roiv you have two Aiden against two Adam and you have arrived supporting one way so give me one minute because it seems like Zion did not make it on the sheets I'm just getting it from the next one foreign maybe we could follow arrive you wouldn't follow Amigo Amigo's evidence you might not follow like Inno Don Pereira to his money because that's like an evidence-based hazaka but the same way a kazak of status quo you could use by trade if there's a rave you could use it by trade why the safik tazel basa Rife the Torah says when you are in doubt you follow the right it's not that the roof is paskaning that we have evidence that because the majority is so then this proves that it came from there it's just what we call a hanha this is how we Accord ourselves that's how we act this is how we uh behave when you don't know what to do you follow the right not because the roof is evidenced but a rave is guidance of what to do when you don't know what to do then Rebecca Vega says he in his opinion royb should be able to work the Malcolm treyotre now this is not unanimous that royiv could work but my because to see the schmeitzev paragraph base now it's worthwhile just to see the first two lines okay if if all we learned today was that well I mean we should have been able to figure that out from the Gomorrah but the shrines are just saying the mask of the rabbana which means midday race so there's no suffix we will use kazaka right because Traders maybe is clear that royiv could work says I am in doubt if there's no kazaki al-aruba foreign so we should say should certainly work the Malcolm Trail train because right we're stronger than but on the other hand maybe if it's stronger that's its downfall because if it's stronger maybe it's a proof and if it's a proof it can't work by Edith he says then also the Let the Right pass again and she only be a suffix foreign because two witnesses are better than arrive d only a presumptive status can work with the rice mission that since before us is a suffix of two and two Aslin ambassadhazaka we're gonna follow the kazaka is you can remove it from its original status mean the way khazaka works by treyotreyas since you're in a stalemate since you're at a uh since you had a Crossroads and you don't know what to do so until you could prove definitively and get extricated from its presumptive status you can't remove it but the way Roy works is Rife is a proof that it's more inclined to be motor than Usher but in this case since we have two against two it's a 50 50 Suffic even by Roy just like Roy has no bearing against Adam at all because two is a hundred and because again meaning the schmeitza is not so uh definitive about what rabbit was sure about Rebecca Vega seemed to say that the way right works is anytime you have a doubt taser bus arrive you should follow arrive and the Schmidt says because uh the way Roy works it's it's some proof it's some kind of indication and it doesn't add anything to two Aiden oh okay next subject um if you remember from your Yeshiva days a very uh fundamental and interesting hakira of the countries I believe was the brother of let's see um the conscious foreign by the way he writes something very interesting in his uh hakadama he says that if a person would be able to go up to the Moon and not tell anybody about it he wouldn't go in the first place because almost all the enjoyment that a person has in this world of doing anything is if you could afterwards tell people about it but if if we tell them you know you could go anywhere but you got to keep it to yourself the person says to what's the point okay anyway he says like this the royalist boy named remember the gemara tried to prove from the barshatya case remember bashatya he went in and out of uh bouts of sanity and insanity and he sold land and uh the what what did we pass again over there ravashi said okay leave the land in the possession of you now right now the land is not in barshadya's possession he sold it to someone so it's physically in someone else's possession but barshatya was the original owner what is that called the original owner marikama murikama how does marikama work the conscious Sega says the royalist by name of original owner by Mamon how do we know we follow it I understand um the something called my mind that when you don't know what to do with money so you leave it in the a possession of the one holding it so the gemara says in babakama that's asphara it's asphara right in other words uh you have no until you right now I'm holding it I have no problems you want to be Mighty from here that nobody's holding it more than anyone else why should you follow Jessica's murikama so he says two possibilities he says it's like Huska sister the same way if a woman is married and you throw her again selfie so if you don't know what to do we follow kazaka and that is she's been married until now and she'll stay that way until you can prove otherwise that's not how much that's something called sister that we learned now from sukum so the same way there's some there's something called presumptive status quo by isser so why wouldn't we say that by money even though no one's physically holding it but we should say presumptive ownership until proven otherwise meaning maybe is like and then the Consciousness says no it could be is not it's not like presumptive status by isser because you can't my name is it's like law of uh possession it's like it's in my possession just like by money logic dictates you can't take away my possession if I'm holding it likewise even if I'm not holding it but if I'm the original owner if you know it was mine even though right now it's in the agamron it's mine once I had ownership over something even though it's not in my domain there is a logic that says I am the it's in my possession that's still law of possession that's the question it's the famous uh hakira of the conscious aslayka is how does marikama work is it like is Sir the same way you if you don't know if a woman is married if she was married until now let's assume she remained that way so it's the same thing by money or do we say you cannot learn out money from is like a law the is the same way if I'm holding something you want and you want it you're gonna have to prove that that it's yours so too if I used to own it that's called it's in my pocket now what would you say that our gamara seems to say about this hakira of the country remember the Camaro's vacillating back and forth can you use kazaka when you have two Aiden against two Aiden and the gemara says well wait a second maybe uh regarding Gittin you cannot use her the kazaka that she has that she's married and then the gamara says I'll prove to you that you could use khazaka from the case of barshadya now what would you say about the following case you have two Adams say ruvane is the owner of uh of the cow and two of them that say Shimon is the owner and ruvane is holding it would you ever say in your right mind that Trey which face fake and Ruben should not continue to be the owner until we prove otherwise meaning would anybody in the right mind says can't work by Trey or Trey because there's no question if somebody's holding something that is not a proof it's theirs but there's a logic it's in my pocket and you cannot take it until you could prove otherwise it's not be Roar it's just hanhaga we would have said we presumably would would say that everybody would agree that law of possession can work in a situation of trade or trade so when the gemara is trying to prove that is and the gemara brings the proof from barshatya and there the kazaka that's being utilized is marikama doesn't that prove that Jessica's Murray come is like and not the law of possession because the khazaka of possession has no bearing on trail Trey because everybody would agree that the hazaka of physical possession of course has what to say even in the face of Trejo Trey so Rebel Hanan in the arasayin says that our gamara speaks very loud and clear about the conscious Vehicles the Shayla that the Consciousness wanted to know what is murikama is it like that there's some kind of presumptive status that it should belong to the original owner uh like Huska sister or is it like law of possession well if it's like law of possession how could the gamma approve from marikama to khesca sister it must be marikama is analogous too look at Rebecca trailer correct correct but but Uki we're giving it to the marikama because I'll tell you why uh no no no no no because by land there's no such thing as possession by land there's no such thing as Muslim by land the fact that you're on you can't you can't be moxic on land you're on it huh I just pushed you off it I mean what does it mean you're honored there's no such thing as uh so then there's no marikama if this is uh in other words because the way works is it says um it destroys the marikama it says uh starim um it says stories right where's your star it says where's your star so so by land there's no such thing as much there's only marikama provided that the other guy doesn't have right so whatever is saying um tray listening betrayal tray I have this says according to the mandamasa then would not work by barshatya right the gamoras to have a proof from barshatya means that if you hold khazaka doesn't work by Trader tray it shouldn't work by barshadya but wait a second why wouldn't and that's why it wouldn't help I trade if you hold secretary because if you're gonna say that marikamas why wouldn't it work by Trey utre and this is the Suffolk of the Consciousness fake guys it worksok you're right I see that is not relevant by karka okay that's what I got for you today um it's a very uh I guess it's a shahya of uh whether kazaka works in the faces so the bottom line is we pass can trade which means that a presumptive so basically Rabbi said there are three kinds of kazakas listen to a basic comes out based on what we learned today there are three kinds of kazakas there's law there's law of possession that if someone's physically holding something and that seems to say everybody would agree would work by Trey or Trey even if you hold Trader Trace fake rice uh would work and that's what says if the gemara is bringing in marikama murikama must be and does that work by treyotre that's uh it doesn't work if you'll trade trade secretary it does work then you have a kazako which is proof for example about that even according to the maskana that cannot work excuse me the kazaka could work but maybe that is approved can't work then there's migu does Migo work by Trey Trey for sure not and even if it could be it still doesn't work because Amigo is a proof amigosa proof what about royb could Roy work by Trail tray Robby Cuba says yes royb is like a lower level kazaka doesn't pass in it's just a it tells you how to record yourself and the schmeichel says not so fast maybe Roy can't work either okay Rabbi Sai have a great day and um we will all be in touch that's Hashem this week we continue back on the uh iguera sagra at 5 30. okay everybody say have a great day you've just experienced another Torah class brought to you by torahanytime.com