Tracing the Early Origins of Saying LeDovid during the months of Elul and Tishrei

hello this is misha shwade the following presentation on tracing the early origins of saying the david during the months of el latishrei will be presented in two parts here is part one and stay tuned for part two due to technical difficulties audio only will be available and there won't be any video [Music] welcome back rabbi dr eliezer brought we have another special episode we did one on view the levy tish above time and it got tremendous feedback and incredible amount of attention at over six thousand views and rabbi brought figured people like the content that is not directly related to parsha or daf and let's see let's give it to the people give it to the audience and let's see the feedback on this one so the topic today is tracing the early origins of saying the david hashem many of us have the minute to say this twice a day shacharis some say by minha some say by magriv some people if they're fortunate enough to dive in by as far minion miner and ashka's meaning familiarity they say three times a day are those we're going to see who don't say it at all and we are here to learn more about this minigun rabbi brought how are you today barak hashem so you're going to tell us something i've heard from you you even have plans one day to write a safer about so that means that you've spent quite a few hours days months on the topic so maybe tell us a little bit about how you got into it a general introduction of what this topic entails okay so number a few introductions as you just said one is like this many i fell into this derek agav while working in a on the topic of it started with um sleeping on rosh hashanah the sort tracing the sources of sleeping on shashana which ended up getting into what many different areas of rosh hashanah then somehow got to yom kippur and then somehow got even to ishana rabba somehow through this at one point it already expanded backwards to l and and while looking into certain things i looked i started i started i was testing out something and now ladavid has already been discussed by many people so i assumed that it was already kardashian robin as the without quoting the rest of the pisco that's used for this so i said okay i don't have anything really to say about the david but then different things um were said at the time a friend of mine which we'll get to had a interesting point and bottom line is i decided to look into it and then i fell into a tremendous tremendous rabbit hole which i am still in that was number one number two is that what sparked my interest further was that in recent and then i and i actually wrote about in a few different versions of articles about it published in a few different places um and different each time expanding expanding and then okay i and then i actually published in a small booklet called the cutely ezer a few articles of mine about 12 years ago okay fine very good i figured um that's it there's nothing more there's plenty more to say about it because i was only trying to do certain things and that's it in the past 12 years i've come across many different sources many different things and discussions that people still talk about and for some reason it's a very fun topic of rabbanim um to talk about um about this minute where's where's it come from and then to try to explain looking through the david what it has to do with these special days and i heard many different speeches about it and i read different articles about it and i still and i see that it's they're full of mistakes i'm not going to bother to list out all the people what the mistakes are um but but in short there are a lot of mistakes out there and i decided you know even though it's been 12 years i'm going to revisit the topic a little bit and with all my editions so tonight today tonight for me actually i'm going to discuss some of the materials that i have had discovered up till now now to be clear this is not my discoveries some of these discoveries are built on discoveries of other people but it's the combination of everything putting together and adding to it checking into different things as i'll mention the third and final introduction to this topic is um is that this is jet this is related to a more general subject of interest of mine which is the nicest of the understanding the siddha and understanding the the cloud davening in general and how the city that we have developed when i was a bakr already i asked a tremendous time could he recommend to me a safer to explain how davening develops all the different parts of having how when were they put there and it's stuff like that and the gear studies and that not only to first understand when it came into the sitter and then to understand what it is why is it being said specifically here so he told me there's no such there's no such safer there have been attempts and i've been uh hunting these works down ever since and until today this question i asked this person or something like 20 25 years ago and today there have been many works articles on specific topics but there is no one uh book i'm actually people ask me all the time about it now so what i did over here with this topic some of what will come clear this is a also a method how it has to be done for the rest of for all of davening so to speak and hashem i i actually did try for some other things also and other people are working on different aspects about this so those are three general general topic um introductions of how i got to this but uh one more short introduction is what am i trying to do with my presentation you say i'm not coming here today to try to learn up this capital and then to explain um what the connection between this capital and the different ukrainian how they learn it up or some people use the resharing on to him which they are planning to explain it and the connection i'm trying to understand is how and when did this come so when did this become so widespread and what is now so far to date our earliest source that we could say says in black and white um to say it during the months of ellen tishrei that's my goal and i to just to illustrate it with one short story of recent times and through this i actually think people will be able to relate more although it's a little more comical but people will be able to understand more what i'm going to be getting to eventually there's his follows a few a few i think they're ready a few months ago someone made a speech a short very short speech less than two minutes and in and in the speech someone recorded him and he said the he said in the speech without getting to all the things that he said but he spoke about he want he likes to drink riches cold seltzer okay fine now at the time i actually probably around that time i did come across i don't follow twitter um sadly but i somehow came across the song that was turned from it i heard it and that was it i did not know that it became a very very big um thing fast forward two to three weeks ago the summer ramaphae chemish we're not i don't live in i live in ramaphe chemist and i have a son about nine years old he's in camp and and all of a sudden he's starting to drink seltzer he we drink salsa he started to drink salsa he never drinks ulcers no idea why then he said something about vicious cold celtic or something no idea what's going on until we figured out during the color after listening to the color war songs and the whole and video of what went on the camp and basically that song that was made in months in i think is muncie maybe was it spread to that in camp it was the song that they played the whole day that these little kids who don't even know what what what what's even talking about we're talking about drinking vicious cold shelter and it was this song playing non-stop for a good few hours every day it was related somehow in color war and this kid that's why he wanted to drink cold salts now but now this poor guy who said this gave that speech for a minute and a half he had no idea that anyone was ever gonna he knew that he was being recorded but he had no idea that it's eventually gonna make it to the subject of articles twitters songs um it's ported i believe in the senator's speech um already he never thought such a thing some this what happens is is that someone says something and now the question is how it gets all over today we understand because we have the internet and now this between the internet is nothing there's whatsapp groups and twitters and so it could spread in seconds but but way back not 30 years ago even something spread it took time for it to spread and if you go further back it took even more time to spread so when we're so i'm my attempt to today that i would like to do is if i could pinpoint the error who as far as we know he's the person that did it but then who's just because i find it in some whacked out safer or or if he's not a whack that's it could be a very cautious at that time but maybe no one else heard of it so how do i know how it gets accepted to start becoming so widespread that today it's like the first speech as soon as lb comes everyone talks about yes and olden days um people used to faint when they heard the cry of um but they heard retrends benjing of el the famous all the different sources of that and then the next thing is uh we start saying la david and some people no the god didn't say lord david i'm a granic all of a sudden and the other people are like okay we have to settle dove it and we say lord of it and then and then somehow it gets in there so these are my um short introductions sorry for being so long but let's get going okay so before you get going as you've done so well with all the topics you've discussed has really gone through the history um from source until today you know whether how something was learned or how was wrong learned right how kachin was learned throughout the generation so i think this is really what you're attempting to do with la david where'd it start and had it spread and and where are we today with it um a couple of things um i put this out that we're doing this recording we got um at this point i put it on a few minutes ago one person sent me the recording from dr schneider lyman is that something that you're aware of yes bar hashem i i'm well aware of it i cited it right into my article i expand on what he says and we'll get to the mirror and and he enjoyed what and he enjoyed and he definitely enjoyed what i added to the conversation of what he did i took it much much further than him um but what he said with the sword actually one of the sources that he quoted was excellent source to springboard me into my rabbit hole further and i think i've mentioned publicly that um dr lyman was one of my sources to get introduced to you um how we started originally so that is one thing somebody else asked if he heard that there may be some source that is from a sub she and i'm probably not pronouncing it properly you could correct me um safer and that's where people got it from it's a baby i understand if you're living in lakewood sabathians you didn't hear um nahi weinstein's whole series of uh i don't even know how many lectures he has on decisions i'm all out sir how many did you how many does he have got to be 12 to 15. many yeah so special series in his chatter in his farm china thing so so yes so we will emit hashem we'll get to it a little bit in the course of uh this discussion yes okay fine so as we begin the david is the topic here take it away okay so first i'm going to begin with a general introduction and then we're going to and a little bit leading into the david and then we're going to get to tracing exactly first like this we know safe at the hilum plays a very important role in our in general for us jews but specifically for davening avraham berliner and his onsider shows i think says that something some number of over 50 complete capital somehow make it into telum and hundreds more absurdum are partially found all over davening um ezra malamud has a whole article retraces all diff where he collects all different things showing on a crazy amount how if you're going through all different it's between smart them also every all types of you didn't a crazy amount that tell them ends up in in our sitter at one point or another throughout the year okay there's also a age-old minig which goes very very far back that people say to that people used to say tell them daily they still do people do it some people finish it weekly monthly that's a whole whole discussion the origins of that but when you move into l specifically starting yellow so the the safer mata frying which we'll get to soon he talks about that there's a minute to finish it a few times and some some speaking of sabatians some people try to link it that this minig really is a sinic but it's not it's for sure not already way before zabatians let's say in the in sfas the times that ariza in the letter that was printed we have that they would that the attacker would say to help there was a minute to to say all of to hillary over l and so it's not it's it predates it and there's others there's many other sources for this but in general in the yum nuram especially once you get to rosh hashanah and kippur shannon rabbit to him is mamash said people had a meaning specifically to just say it over rosh hashanah over yom kippur staying up the whole night young kipper hashana rabba and taylor basically plays a very important point important part of claudia's role is davening and specifically in these days of ello and the yom nero i traced it the the minhagum of rosh hashanah and kippur would tell him i traced in in a very big article about it but this today we're focusing on ello with ladam so some try to point out that ludovic is not only said during l and tishrei it's also said in other times the year now one has to be very careful in general is just because something says in an article does not mean that it says it there could be mistakes and what i'm saying also there could be mistakes so one always has to check up everything um big there's a famous pisca is and when one checks up things inside a lot of times the story appears to be much different than what i said so some of these true some of these times that they find that is said is a mistake but there are clearly in some lists predating um um the 1700s even earlier than the 1700s we find that people would say ludovic amongst other capital film daily specifically already in th this is already um in the 70 this is already in the mid 1700s a beautiful say for kafunaki that was printed from morocco that quotes from manuscript but today we are zaika that was printed in recent years he says that the morocco by him they used to say it daily by around before meyer if they would say look nothing to do with l nothing to do with tishrei it doesn't say why they had other capital they also would say but it seems also there is it says that there was a meaning that people would say it all year round okay but ashkenazi jews they became accepted to start saying it when in elo and to shray twice a day and we're not going to get into if it's chakras minha or chakras mairev and what's behind that and how that happened we'll just touch on it later on okay just now if you fast forward um one way to when you're tracking trying to track down um different types of things if it's accepted or not very good sources autobiographical accounts of people so in a very interesting autobiography from bernard drachmann he talks about he was on a train and this just my friend shimon steinmetz he pointed this out to me many years ago and basically he was on a train they were davening and this brachman said he pointed out to them that you forgot to say the 27th peric of tehillim don't you know it's the month of ello which we say this tell him he said morning and evening and this person said it's really true and then he says to his his neighbor he says it's a shame in the disgrace that a dich had to remind us that we have to say this okay anyway we see that in this is taking place after the 1870s on a train and he was traveling he was he was visiting he was visiting europe and he was traveling from different places in galicia okay in a safer um a fascinating safer uh yes who was a talmud of relative of the native very closer to many good i live including berlin so it seems that in his russians when he used to give in when he talked about his russians of el he's his wife set over that he would talk about the capital of the david and he would go through it very slowly explaining it to his siber always okay so here we see a more lit fish source also from that period of time that i was accepted to say okay fine so these are just um very um some just to throw out there okay now let's get to um to the to the to the bottom line what is the story of the david and could we um pinpoint what it so um basically it seems and this is i'm building off the conclusions of of various different people ready for 100 years they've been claiming it but as time goes on we're able to say with more certainty that this date and this source is the source because first of all more swarm are available today than ever before manuscripts are being printed so we a lot of times could establish different information over time with more and more about it and basically that is in 1706 a safer is printed it's called chainter of cotton from rabinyamanbanishakayan and inside this mahabhara it's a the safer he um he has a rickos and says and i will quote his lotion i will not quote his whole russian because uh it's uh it's long it's over it's a page and a half but basically in this safer we shall also discuss what is the nature of the safer and what is the significance of the safer and what we know about the author which is also interesting to relating to this kind of to this conversation it says like the sight goddess and as you if you look up this whole piece you'll see he's referring to this even if there's a tremendous xavier on the person it's a tremendous thing and um that if you say this capital it now note his timing is from until after simcha okay then he says explaining why that is and this is way above my pay grade this deals within kabbalah um where he shows that the with the with the different aspects that he how he what he sees in this capital not so much what he sees in the capital in the havana of the of the actual words but different words represent different things in kabbalah as i said way above my page and it's over a page about it and i leave that for the mukubalam to explain the the um what's going on over here then he says another aspect he says also there's also an aspect to say it's on chaining the hamishi of elo when you're already fasting especially on um on cersei made chuva after she so there's a so that's a second aspect of this saying this capital okay fine now just because a guy writes this guy i'm not saying a guy we're talking about uh it turns out very very hush of a person in 1706 and the safer like how does this get anywhere how does this get to the vicious cult seltzer that i mentioned in the beginning so a few years later he publishes another saver called amtas binyamin and this safer also hey mentions at schoola and this safer he actually even adds some another schooler relating to saying the david that if one says it at a um with it is let's say you're in your house and you have a safer tire in your house and you have a cloth with this capitol mismatch of um of this mismar ludov unbelievable also the what's going to be opened up for you for your philos the hula hulu he talks about this now then it so he and and but he also brings in to say in this safer i'm talking about there is talking more i think it's about um um helping out a school of foreign today but it is i always love hearing from you you talk about segulas knowing your background school has really got you going so thank you for sharing with the audience escula yes yes definitely correct correct now now basically i'm talking about so there he talks about it more but say they're fun but still how does this help us getting out get it out there so so first is that although today the safer is not really well known okay yes there's hebrew books designs can find it easily but after he printed in 1706 through the 1700s it was printed eight or nine times so in in practical words to explain that means it was a pretty very popular work very they're considered like sort of a best seller now why was it a bestseller because this is a school of safer there's a lot of schools in here to do and if you do them you'll get whatever whatever happens it's not only a school saver there's other aspects of the safer and i'm not going to get into all old barracudas all the different aspects of the safer but that it has a lot of schools but this schoola it's not a stomach schooler you know you give 19 shekel at the time three o'clock at three o'clock in the evening and your eyes are closed then who knows what's going to happen here it's saying a capital hillem um so it's a whole different type of a thing okay okay fine so it gets so we now established that it's a popular safer and still but this is not explaining how it's getting into the sidder now research has shown you cannot find it in any sedum before the 1700s that's a significant thing to prove that to helping with this date fine lamai says but this safer only becomes very popular from the 1740s and onwards i don't know what happened in those 30 years um why it wasn't as popular but another safer comes along and that is called the safe as a hero this saver is printed in 1709 he quotes mamish this piece from shame to cotton um and he uses the shame to cut them for other stuff and this is a a massive safer of schools and it became also a best-selling safer somewhere from the 1730s once you hit the 1800s the save is printed numerous numerous times it's a famous safer that people love to quote for different schools that we do um about 10 15 years ago someone went and tried to figure out most of the macaires of this after but one early source was the shame to cut so now here we already have they're expanding it's not only the shame to cut and that's the early source it's the safest hero which was also a very popular safer so we have two sugusvaram that are very popular in eastern europe in these years and that's the first early sources that have this to say this but it has help there's a safer called charamella which is a excellent drush safer from a rav first printed in the 1760s from remartre um i think he was the avesden of i can't even pronounce this i'm not going to bother to break my teeth but the safer is a beautiful safer i've gone through a lot of a lot of the safer full of interesting things and this safer is also very popular and from 1766 until 1797 it's printed six times okay so it's printed six times but what does he say he also says the same nakuda that love it is a special thing but he but he adds he says like this um i'm going to talk about hamilton so he's already telling you that in 1766 and he's really probably referring to earlier it's only printed in 1766 that take a vacations parishes and then he gives his own explanation um what's behind the what's behind the connection between this capital and l and the omniram but here but the point is now we have another safer that's also a very popular drush safer in those years now what's fascinating is in the 1700s when it's from 1766 to 1797 it's printed six times for those that don't understand the history of printing in those days that means it was also a very popular work in general printers didn't print books that couldn't sell it's printed six times that's beyond popular but after the 1797 is pretty much not printed until you know whatever 30 years ago and i think there's a nice edition i might have once seen about it anyway okay but it's still not found in any sudurum so now how do so so at this point yes it's probably a nice school that was that people heard of and this already we now have three khashoggi sources that are saying comes along somewhere in the 1790s the khida brings it down also which also was popular in certain circles but that but he does i do not believe that that time was popular in the eastern europe circles so much but that's a different that's a different discussion now in 1794 one of the early sudhuri what's called the siddur the hasidis so to speak which is based on the uh siddharisa which is its own long conversation from it's called siddhirab shapsi he quotes this thing from weir i don't know if he quotes the i don't remember if he quotes the exact that he's quoting from the shindikatan but it's clear he's quoting the shame to cut so now we have in a safer that be at least in those years especially in the situation world that's also a very important safer that has this meaning brought down now moving back also in those years and again i promised that eventually i promised i believe already before that i will get back to him in a special episode but the hafla in his panami office i'm learning it one day and i see but then i see that other people plenty other people quote this says so he's talking about his time and he dies in 1805 although the safer is printed from manuscript that represents alma gold is bought it's printed only in the 1820s but we see that that flow dies in 1805 is talking about a minig that that people were doing in his time and then he goes on da fla has to a whole to stickler to explain what's the connection how he sees the connection between this capital and and the the kufa that we're saying he does bring down because of the uk the umayya that are found in this it says hashem's name is mentioned yugioh um 13 times in this capital now that is found in the shame of cotton and many other sources and kabbalah this is out of sight for a whole its own story but as i said nothing to do with me about way above my page now but if we're going we're going further over here is that the balatanya what was not sure maybe they didn't know when exactly the first siddhar um of the balatani was printed but that's some but in recent years they actually printed a facsimile of what they believe is the first edition of the siddhar of the balatanya which is in 180 which is 1803. the reason why they can't say for certain is because it doesn't have the cover of the original cover on it but it was printed a facsimile edition this relates to what's going on in the the the the library being still in russia but anyway they printed the facsimile edition a few years ago and in here we find that he brings down the meaning of saying la david this is an early siddhara maybe one of the earliest sudarm after abshabzi that has this minute of saying la david um in ill but in the siddhara of the baltania he does not bring the whole reasoning behind it okay fine i'm not going into all different aspects of it but we're once you start once you get to the 1800s um checking randomly in a few different sedum i have come across a few different sedum that has it okay recently i was looking in the first edition of the siddhara of the nesivas where the natives prince of which hashem is going to be a episode um maybe in the next week or two all about the nesivas and he in the siddhar which i don't know if that means that he endorses the minik but in the siddha that he printed in his that was printed in his lifetime that has his it also says that they would say ludovic okay but all this is fine and very nice but it's still not giving us an exp um how it's becoming so um weird because sort of after as you get a little later in the 1800s then it's found in most many many so durham and as you get later and later it's found everywhere what happens does anything else happen to this to make it um get after so i believe and this is not necessarily uh such a revolutionary kiddish at all but the reason how this happens is up till now it's pretty much not in halachic literature it's pretty much a few sedum have it and these kabbalah sigulusvaram have it and we have this this amazing darshan in this dress shape or sharamela has it but it's not it's not found in halal in this period of time now the the truth is interestingly enough there are not that many halaqaram in the period of time that we're talking about that really should have it but the few that may be on our chain that would have it don't have it such as i would say i'll point to the adam doesn't mention anything about it okay but when you open up the mata ephraim all of a sudden the mata frank talks about it a bunch of times mata friend says the following and this is we'll start discussing it a little more in depth right now is then he talks about other aspects um what about a day with music and he says what about um then he talks about which goes first all these are the type of questions that i'm not dealing with today um but there are discussions about that you mentioned the material is reframed margolis and i know that it's someone who i don't like using the word about the dylan but someone who you have a hero worship towards spent many many months day years um and we know anyone who learns aloha during these times opens the mate frame wanna tell us very quickly how that becomes safer why did he write specifically on these topics anything you want to add right now yeah okay so so basically the story goes like this anyone and every i'm just even my r even my rav he just began on past shabbos he was talking about hulkhouse of el he goes and right away he quotes a few different mata frames anyone who learns mishna brewer and knows the mission brewer brings the mata fry and cassette so over here so first and the now this this figure of the frame is almost what do i mean to say he is very very wealthy he's an asking of the city um i once heard a schmooze it wasn't a common thing such a bala bus it was a refrain zamagos what do i mean it wasn't such a common thing it wasn't a bala bus that abs which we have today barak hashem we have hash of a balabathan giving shirum all over the world we have hash of albatram writing khashoggi's farm all over the world in hebrew in english that's refined zamagos in a dar that was one that was a tremendous incredible dar was considered by everyone and what i mean everyone i mean hasidim lit facts and even svardhan till today as one of the godaily hadar of the kufa now i'm not saying this islam okay you know whatever i mean to say his chuvas his swarm in his lifetime he's been consulted he's on crazy um he has a crazy kesha with the different of the ones that are older than him and the ones that are his age let's say going the people younger than him or his age mamish we have the sam cypher rebecca vager the legendary which everyone knows he has his fights with him so to speak but they're not fights they're they're tremendous in learning with with not um any um even though people do like to paint it to be some vicious galatians verse litvax it's it's mama shamaratus to say such a thing but it's not for now and ripped like has a tremendous um catcher with the refinements almost he's he he actually gets them the job embroidered pretty much and then they don't from beforehand such as the huda is a young bucker in his teens he's already corresponding with the udon big gayer vanchales he has to do with the shagasari a very close relationship with richard berlin river fall hamburger and many others so he's not just about the boss he's balbasta put out many swarm and and in all different areas as i my term is he we're in his different swarm he wears different hats so in some swarm he's a paisake some sorry as a makhadesh farm he's he's he's a he's a crying chuvas he also anyway he knew a lot and another thing was very famous is that he had a massive farm library he was expert in sperm manuscripts he owned and this plays out a lot of his things now in 1834 after he dies he dies in 1828 tragically suddenly um out of the blue marshmallow quicker describes this and basically he puts out this massive monograph on tishrei called mata freyam it doesn't deal with all aspects of sukkah but it does deal with some aspects of el and rosh hashanah kipper is incredible now and it became accepted by everyone what i mean everyone i mean i believe have a say they're the alar hasidim they during these these periods of time you'll see a lot of hasidim have it in their taliz echo and as i said none other than the then the um mishna brewer quotes and crusader and that's the plastic of today of recent years of the the lichfisher world now basically i'm not going to get into my records the style of the safer of of this of the safer and what's it coming from but basically everything that has to do with halacha that could possibly do he writes out very clearly it's beautifully written a little poetic even and he basically touches on everything that could come up possibly in these days and le david plays primarily he talks about it about six times throughout the safer so this afer becomes from 1834 and onwards the safer of yom naran and i would say this helped this is the first stage this is the first um so to speak place that has halachic discussion of when to say it and he's now we're moving away from the kabbalistic aspect or the school aspect we say it now there's going to be different questions what do you do what um when do you say it what about rich haider there's marking all the different childhoods that people love talk about out of you and bring up survive from here and there and this lure jose this way this this way it's all starts from zama goes in this safer so i would say but but interesting is he says i was wondering what's going on what is um could we trace it earlier in galicia besides this forum so interestingly enough we know today we have something that's called the lua herzeg uh we have luke kashinsky in america we have hankin and it turns out that lucha is much earlier it has not been traced exactly how far back it is but in 1815 the famous masculine who shockingly was very from but he was a vicious masculine and at the same time he he had a vicious hatred to hasidim even over there in 1815 we see them saying that to say the david now it's interesting he wasn't pro kabbalah but this minute was there uh because it's a minigame and whatever and also he had no reason not to put it in there because at this time already it wasn't a casitas i bet it wouldn't have been in there but hey these are those are side discussions fast forward once we know that it gets into the into the material this is basically accepted it starts you find it in all different sudden the kit has it gets the shock source is the master of raim and then you can find it in all different places now just to say one could about the mission brewer which i don't have an answer to is that the mission brew i keep on saying he has the mata frame and he used the mata fine but when you look in mishna brewer and there is an answer to it we won't get into right now but he says he brings down we say um okay he brings the whole quote how is he safe say first source acronym doesn't say it's mata frying so you'll say maybe mission brew doesn't matter fine literally the next piece he says about the minig which people say to him assign the whole to hillary over elo where's the source mata frame so he has the mata friend what's going on here quotes mata right so this obviously you have to be bucky i don't know offhand but there are people that have managed to be medic and called thanks for tagging with shibu and they can explain what what it is okay anyway bottom line is as part we could say that this is sort of what happened this is the seder shantaef cocktail safe zahira sharamelech a few other few other stops on the way but it gets the mata frame once it gets to the mata frame that's it it's it's everywhere by that time already and then it's inside okay so this is part one of what the presentation is it seems like you did a very fear analysis of proving that la david is not just kabbalistic i just have to throw in there i don't know why you keep on saying that you're someone who's down into kabbalah i know you gave your address where you live you're scared that people are going to be lining up at your door to come to you for breakfast but either way um now it's already halachic and it's there so we say it um i'm assuming you didn't just decide to do this podcast because you found the source um to say it i'm sure there's other possibilities out there that you want to maybe debunk other myths about david do you want to speak about oh so so before okay but now so betharius and this was another um piece of a puzzle that added me to get into this to go down this rabbit hole of david was the following up till now i'm saying and as i said it's not me that discovered the shame of cotton there were people that suggested the shame to have cotton over the years one such person was verbs but earlier even i have a list of different people that realize that it is the shantikatan but today to say very very certainly 1706 is nothing earlier what happens a friend of mine um dan rabinowitz daniel rubino with daniel daniel dan rabinowitz he's the founder of what some people might know this farm blog and many years ago he wrote a small piece about a safer and this safer he he wanted to say could show mamish give us more of a period of time when that it doesn't come from earlier than a certain time because this safe would have brought them what is he referring to so in a few years ago we're going back to um 2003. someone in a brock put out a safer on saying sheer show young so ready then and this has been a meaning especially in today is you don't just put out a safer on the topic alumnus to say for you try to find if there's a jakarta safer that's going to be relating to your topic so somehow he came across that there's a safer printed in lublin in tough lamid zion now it's not clear if it's printed in taflama zion it could be tough zion till um tough members now taflam and zion is hebrew so how do we get that translated into um english you'll have to give me a minute or two and i'll tell you the exact date while i'm talking but this is in the sev in the 1670s 1677 it is and basically what's the safer so this is a person who survives tax attack which is in the 1640s he's a nephew of a great goggle at the period of time and we're not going to get into the whole history of the safer but it's called shire halo view now watch your living it's a safer which talks about the capital one should say daily yearly on shabbos to a certain capital and weekday there were different capitals that people would say besides the young and everything like that and besides for all this when he talks about his stuff so first i'll give an example so we know so he begins the safer we know uh paragala if we talk about he talks about the the sheer show y'all that we say fine very good but then he shows what about myriff so he says there was a minute to say where does he get it from he brings you down a source from it at the period of time and then he shows a face that's a hat so he's has the following capital tell them that we're saying they would say before bark shaman he brings down they would say mismark which is now what's interesting is he says when he what do you say we say daily and ashkenaz we say miss moshe anyway obviously that's its own rabbit hole to go down of miss marshier when this happened when they get put in the siddhar and interestingly enough shockingly this mismarshier is not in the siddhar in at least all sudurum way way on it's also more later than one would imagine okay fine let's say after elena he says they say people are saying mismar pavel anyway this is a whole save for about it's not a big safer it's a safe now interestingly enough there's only one copy of this safer survived it's during this period in this rough period of time going on after that still and it survived in the openheim it's in the oppenheim library which is his own schmooze and somehow he got a copy hebrew university does have a copy of it and he got a copy and he put it out with notes now what's significant about it not only does it so that this person goes ahead and he gives you barricos what which kapitlahor said is what he used to to get this he had manuscripts he had all this farm at the time this is after the result and he quotes from the margaret obey series if he had a manuscript democracy he quotes many ar results he had siddhar rizal and manuscript this is way before receiver of shops that recorded in 1794. he has other stuff for the result he has the slaw he has the zayar he has a safer kavanaugh kindly tower manuscript and he has many other things he has a rich library which is its own discussion what you see over here is but let's see let's get to ello there's no mention of saying this this would have this is this safer's kill of encyclopedia on saying to hillam which kapit look and he was busy tracking it down from all the sources that would have said it so let's say someone's going to tell you there's really a manuscript of diariza he would have known about it so the fact that till today we have incredible discoveries with the siddhar arizal and our resource discoveries has been the past 50 years and even more recently that we can map it out thanks to the incredible work of of of avivi and everything else and and we haven't found it there so you can't come and say oh it's not reason but we don't have it we we now have thanks to the work of the habit shalom from rubyakavello's macon and everything with him and the manuscripts it's not there anywhere and this is a person from the so so now we could show you that we're already breaking down the dates because if it is safer 1670s and it doesn't have this um the dominant that's the theme of the safer he would have tracked it down he would have heard about it so it's a cl this was the raya from this good friend of mine dan rabinowitz that it's it has to be it's going to be it's going to be from the 1670s to the 1706 1707 from the shemitah so now what's left is is a very short period window of years that one has to find the siddha or sedum that have it and we have yet to find it now it could be that it's before the shantikata why we'll get to it but but this was um why i'm saying with much more certainty than has been said this this raya the safer was very rare it was only printed in as they said in 2003 okay fine let's let's move on but we're are there other possibilities you mentioned so number one there's a safer called safe our mustard which is printed in 1671. you open it up and it has the oven in there great now besides there's a whole mystery behind this siddhar but shemosh nazi has proven that the editions where this helicopter talks below david is taken from the safe as a hero which we mentioned is printed much later so it's not in the original editions in the 17 to 1671 of it so we knocked off that you don't have arrived from there okay fine but as i said already people like to tie this to that result so is there a way to tie this to that result so it turns out there is and for a long time this is how it was tied to that result okay so another possibility that's been suggested and this is a very important suggestion if it will turn out to be true is we know that everyone knows that rizal had one in the talmud of khan vital it was a great talmud of his and he was responsible for transcribing that results thairu recording it and whatever happened with it now kai mccain was a talmud movie by rokhan vital wreath we have swarm of kaimaka in many different farm and even recent years we have a siddha of but it turns out that in 1741 a yidra babadi put out a siddhar calling it shahir rakhman shah ratson and he says in the shower and i quote that this is taken from where from the look is and everything like that so if we could find in this siddhar 1741 that it and it's linking it now from okay mclean to the arizona that will be amazing and we open up this sydney in the back of the sidder where it talks about el and has against the same piece of the shanks of cotton could be found here so the 1706 it could be is that now what happened you could say very simple rabbenish he got he stole the manuscript of rokayama kain's materials that's really from the arizal and that's what's going on over here and that's how it's in the back but turns out that we know that this siddhar is not such a reliable sibling first of all the siddhar the one the one of the publishers involved with the siddhar just took a lot of material from a safer champion which we'll discuss shortly but more than that is already a great makuba from that time who wrote a state from saita that was recently printed from manuscript moroccan mukubal writes that he cannot rely on anything in this siddha it's nothing to do with it's not reliable so we already have that this loses out it's to say that in 1740 we have now getting it back to that result but we have but that's if someone was alive then he wouldn't know this this piece of manuscript that i'm quoting to tell you that the siddhar is not reliable from is only printed by mayor benio in more recent years so not necessarily is someone going to know so it's not so it's not fear if we find that and we take a do fine different safari including rebecca for careful way back and say for sure it's villa he traces where is it coming from from problem is like this today we know as i said my when i'm giving this presentation today it's based on what we know today so today we know we have requirements in there it survived we have many manuscripts of it and none of the manuscripts there's this whole long piece that's in the shaint of qatar which is now also found in the siddhis up here so and there's a whole tumble about the siddhar to figure out what it is published from manuscript the first volume and there based on what the the editor at the time he researched different manuscripts to figure out what he holds is authentic blah blah blah and he gets to it and he and he and he concludes um so in the manuscripts that he looked at does not have this whole piece but strangely enough and i cannot explain this in the siddhar that's printed only a few years ago less than 20 years ago it does say it does seem to be that they that there was a minig in and it's brought into some city of now it's not in the city that they would say david um they would say le david after davening so but it's not but it's not that but the point over here is it's not el it's not rosh hashanah or and it's not at all the whole reasoning behind it which is the kawalistic reason that i said this right chain the cut and talks about maricos now he he says this as a lawyer he says but it doesn't appear in any of the manuscripts i don't know why he put it in because he's saying that this siddhar is based on what he calls authentic manuscripts so it means is in some somewhere somehow it got put in to sailor david it doesn't say that it's the same african-american fishery so it's it's just even after everything's said and done this uh edition of the sitter makes it a mystery because not everyone reads the fine print that reads the introduction sees what's going on and we know from the actual sitter it's not there okay so that but what's significant is that there's no it's not the shame of captain is the source and it's not from darius okay now again as i said earlier part of the way we're able to say this with certainty is because we know so much more about that reason we have so much more material manuscripts and manuscripts have been discovered printed published it's not in any okay fine now we move on and we have another possible early source and from this source people have um quoted that we have a another great early source and that is that it appears to be the the big shul in austria it says as follows it seems there was a plaque and it had different interesting and haggis and one of them says if we could figure out when this plaque is from rashalam ali israel the now someone sent this plaque with all the other hanhagus that it said there to that deres and it seems he was told that it's from takanus and hanhagus from the time of the martial eventually he sends this in it's printed with with the the darius wrote harass on all these takanas and it seems that the belief was that this goes back to the marsha these attacking martial okay but history checking into this so first of all in general it's its own very big subject someone wrote a whole doctorate about it all these insults are tracing far back a lot of different things where there are signs up in schools we find today a lot of times you have made in the rabbana and all different things so certain berkshire may some schools have it up so it seems already for a few hundred years that was put up by um for easy we could think of easy reasons for it but this particular thing it's not it seems it's not that far back from the marshall historian of the city from much later on who knew that austria a person from austria writes all about it says it's not it's not coming back because if it was this we would have a source from the because the martial is there the schloss there the martial is even there even further so it would be great we have a luak on the wall recording of it that that's gonna that's giving us all different hugging so the answer is it's not as early back at some point in time they decided to print the different takanas of the kahila so it's very possible and they did not know already when this person wrote his safer um he printed it in um the late um in the late after 1900 already but he was he had a lot of archive material of the city and everything they didn't know when it was but they definitely knew it wasn't that far back so we cannot say that it's from the martial and why am i now with what i began earlier saying the whole story with the staff for shirya lavium that's printed in the 1670s if it was in the martial it would have made it in here because this is ashkenazi safer the same region traveling and everything so it would have been known he would have definitely quoted it he would have quoted and said he it's a good chance he would have said by the way the marshal he would have known about david and as he said he doesn't know anything about this above it so it's funny that they went out of their way in austria and they're talking about our shot to say we don't say the other no i'm saying with governor any where you talk okay now you mentioned earlier in the introduction that someone wrote wrote into you is it a sinig or whatever so this gets to um one of our this will be one of the last parts of today's presentation that is as follows this is a safer and safer is called khandus yamam and the safer kansas yum is printed it's printed a few years after the um i think it's 17 uh one minute it's in tough sadik alef so that will take it to the later 1700s a few you know to about 20 years after the shantiv got them and what happens is this saferhamdusyamim also has the meaning of saying the david so let's so what happens is like this so let before we go look and see what it actually says in the so let's just give a drop of background what's going on over here and what would that be if it's from the feminism okay so number one is it's a big question is is the safe alhamdulillah to say it in prosthetic terms good for the jews or bad for the jews if a meaning is found there doesn't mean we shouldn't do it or shouldn't do it so this has been a discussion that has is endless endless endless literature articles subject now one of the coolest is we don't know who wrote but what happened it's already rebecca them then accused them of being something affiliated with whatever with with shopsite suite once that happens once that gets mixed into the equation for fallen if your mini is there and once someone tells you oh it's really going to be there bad bad luck for the juke bad it's bad for the jews and that meaning today might get a problem the problem is like this we know now much more about the um now even though recently it seems a friend of mine might have discovered figured out once and for all who the who this author is that's a different schmooze but let's not go there la maisa in this period of time in the 1700s and this is after the shame to cotton what do we know about do people care about the safer or not so amazing you'll find everywhere uh you could find a long list of people swarding a daily menu they're using the safer even the village camp the vulnerable sun had the safer it seems the film the garden seems new to safer and other dialum affiliated with the vulnerable quote stuff from the safer so the lit facts plenty of early hasidim were into this safer also what happened what triggered not for now but bottom line is let's say we'll go in the let's just give two sources one is in in in a library a listing of a library of the scholen velajan in the 17 i think seven in 1700 in the later later part of the 1700s young was on the shelf velazquez similarly just this week a friend of mine butler sent me a write-up about the library of yeshiva where's the mystery this mysterious library what happened with it did the nazis really destroy it or not it's been discussion for years some wrote up all about it and they started collecting um this farm that have appeared somehow somewhere or another that from the library of khashoggi has a stamp inside it appears sometimes on auctions and collections so i'm looking through the list and all of a sudden i see him sitting on the shelf okay anyway we could give many many many many sources not the point point is that if it's there um fast forward forget about those sources it might be a problem so now i'll i'll just um say one story with this about 12 13 years ago is by the great gain person but also a great mukbal and a litfak at the same time of shreya the blitzky and someone asked him what is the story with the khandesyam could you look at it could you use it or not so sribitsky was sitting in his room with that's filling on kia do you work film the whole day he says go look what's on my desk we go into the room we see on the desk is an ancient copy of hindusyam this was an el he goes how i does not a yantif that i don't go into without learning to say for him this is where i heard my own my own ears saw it and heard it from rashoi dablitsky in his swarm he uses the khan this year um okay anyway bottom line is so if it's in the comments is it good for the jews or baptists as they say so it seems that that once it gets there for some people it's over the minute could have no has no hope and that's sort of what happened certainly in later years they stopped saying it now i come across a letter this is quoted in the literature um a letter is printed in the 1930s a person writing and he says as follows talking about la david we say like this we don't say la david why not the khaladvar mehlu and then he talks about a different feeler that we say that the master frame handles and others they didn't realize it's coming from the canvas says what about amir david that i knew that would not say it did and he has a the raptured sir didn't say it why not because of this is from then he says i was in 1927 by some others in poland uh nicola from the ida kadesh and he said that the reason why that he wouldn't say it is because of the safer hindus it's in that safer okay he says also do say it and i've seen myself many different caesars do say it so the answer is they didn't know this letter says they didn't know that the macaroon of this is from the says they said once again it's a problem okay vivaldi is it but the problem is and and now if we fast forward in recent years even the people have written in in in this forum don't say it as we know sans didn't say it so we can't say it okay great but let's understand this for a second is it really independence the answer is let's open up we open up the candice young and if you recall in the beginning i quoted a whole long russian from the shamet of cotton about the minigame and the reasoning behind the meeting and he says when to say it and all different things and now i'm going to read you a line and you tell me if this is what it says now nothing personal this is not at all the minig that's found in the shame of cotton this is not the minig that we're talking about the whole time because yes he had this minute to say it and the reasoning is taco this kabbalistic reason the eponymous brings them it's also found the shame the cotton but now first of all is the shaint of cotton sprinter before recent literature has shown that young used the shame of cotton and many other such swarms he was a malarked some people would use a more grubber term of a plagiarizer maybe it's not a group of turn that's his own conversation but the point is that if you open and look inside it's not the minig at all of ours that is which the shame to cut and says to say from when from l till simcha's torah and two times in the day when to say this is not what transgender says you can look so the answer so it's very interesting that you see them at least late because what what's also interesting is like this the part of the office doesn't who will discuss his hasidic origin or not but we'll go for this episode that is he has no problem with it and as i said the cedar of shab scene 1794 also the siddhar one of these they have no problem with it so they pack a dome nodes come this yamaha later on we know conjunct it's they didn't have problems and it turns out these later people they never saw the kanjim it be once it gets a bad name and it's it's not only minute can see them they won't certain especially they won't say okay but it's obviously a very big arrhythmias in the world what's the story with with um there was a back and forth about it in the v in various articles in the best kaivits a bunch of years back with interesting stuff about aquaponics the bottom line is that it's not chemistry but it's uh but it's but shyla is like this okay but we know i i what i do not doubt is this makar and that sans hasidim and other kasim i've heard from different people and i'm sure people have come across it don't say it so first of all is interesting um and i come across this recently and people it seems to be a very known thing shop sites people without getting into as i refer you to for example the chatter the nakhi's farm chatter all the different lectures on it all different things that he did but one of the things was safer film did play prominent in what we now have from anogus um that were published and saying different things especially is aleph listen to this was when was it said by sabatians three times a day even in some sources says the night to be yehuda in achuva okay i'm reading and he says that that that you have in your city that they say after the share show you ms supposed to say nemo the person who wrote him also mentioned that this minute was going on then so there is something interestingly enough you say there is some what i'm trying to do over here is there were right to be suspicious of capital hillam being added in suddenly at the end of dominique and it had connection to chapstick's fee such as a capital zion i've yet to discover and i don't think there is i did look that it has a significant thing in the uh shops movement or and further on looking at it even from kabbalah from it doesn't seem to be that it should have any any anything about it and we now have a lot of material of of of the of what to hill the capital film that they were into and it doesn't come up on the list so i bottom line is it i would not have i don't i cannot link it to the sebatian customs and i also cannot link it to the kamziyam because once i open up the comments it doesn't say what it does