Titanic: Part 4 - The Talmudic Principles of Mayim She'ein Lo'hem Sof

this torah class is brought to you by torahanytime.com okay good morning marvel again today we're continuing on on our voyage the topic of the titanic in the viewpoint of halachan the torah and today we really begin the dimensions of really one of the most difficult shilohs in all of the corpus of material and judaism probably more than any other subject that is discussed in classic responsa in sha'a suchuvas this subject is they're probably more chuvas on it than any other topic and that is the topic of the agunais and there are many unfortunately many various categories of agunis of course you have after the holocaust you have many women who are separated from their husbands and the whereabouts of their husbands were unknown and you have the chuvas um and the the sacrum of kahana the rav of varsha who was the later new shalayim who was called the the father of the agunos where he was mater many agunas you have wives of soldiers israeli soldiers you have all kinds of situations but one of the situations that came out as a result of the sinking of titanic was because they said women and children first and many of those who perished were the men there were a number of women who were agonus and that's what we're going to begin to discuss today the uh understanding what are what is the shiloh and what are the basic guidelines of aguna now there's a dichotomy as we mentioned that on the one hand it's a very very serious area of halacha because we're dealing with asia asia's issues and as we're going to see even if the likelihood of the husband being alive is miniscule is negligible and we'll see that even if even if you could take a shivoha that the husband died you may not that doesn't necessarily mean the woman could remarry in other words even if we have evidence that a person would allow be allowed to swear halachically that the husband is dead it still does not mean the woman is allowed to remarry but on the other hand we have this we have this idea in halacha of um because of iguna so it's this dichotomy in halacha how do you deal with these two uh concepts so we begin yohudi just just as a way of introduction from the jewish standpoint the first question that arises like we mentioned the women were saved as their husbands were remain behind the nature is sheila it's from the most difficult um in other words and as we're going to point out there may be a difference between a young girl who's 19 20 21 22 years old being in aguna for the rest of her life or a woman who's in her 60s and already has children and grandchildren in other words there might be more wiggle room and more flexibility and more of a motivation to be mako if we're dealing with someone who never had an opportunity in life yet okay um it's a rabbit shall we talk and we could say with a great deal of confidence the vast majority of us which were written throughout the generations especially in the last thousand years and if you to basically pinpoint one subject what is the one subject that the police can write about which so that's good to remember the iguna are in semen yuzain and evan ezzar and um also if you look in the bottom of the shocking arch and the piste this brings a whole slew of questions regarding iguna okay so let's begin in the following way let's just understand the importance of being makel in iguna we have one of the classic lines regarding this topic is something that's broad in the shallow situation you need sheets next time you'll get sheets i have the original original here take that leave this here and pass but be careful with that no don't pass it down don't pass out don't don't touch past that yours thank you all right anyway so the that the shiloh was brought it's brought in the bach um and this is from ravina mendel stingy margolius who uh he writes to the bach the following don't consider me arrogant that i stuck my head in this area he says taminuli believe me to permit in some small measure the supremagoona what does this mean you wrote you see dimas i see the tears of the oppressed they have no consolation so there's a concept and then he explains and and i'll try to explain the kamisha mater anyone who's able to permit one aguna it's like he's building one of the ruins of the upper jerusalem so question is what in the world is this talking about so there's a concept that that a woman is a is a representation of the shrina and the shrina so to speak is also without her husband the shrine is also and by being mata in aguna that is a way of giving some degree of consolation to the shrina and someone who is mater and aguna la mata it's kilo you built one of the ruins of the heavenly yerushalayim okay we'll leave it at that so the marsham also this is a common refrain in the success that in other words the motivation to mataranagoon is this concept of but in any event let's begin to learn this okay this is what is called the surgery of mayam shayin lahim saif water that has no end okay and there's going to be a distinction between maya masha in laham's life basically somebody falls into a lake where the perimeters are finite and from standing from the vantage point of the shore you could see the whole perimeter sun falls in and stays there long enough that they cannot survive so then possibly the woman could get remarried because where is the guy he didn't he didn't emerge he's been submerged long enough that he can't survive let's say whether it's three days one day or 30 minutes even and where is he oh he must have he maybe when you weren't looking he came out i was looking the whole time so somebody's standing there now we don't have any evidence that he died his body didn't turn up but we know he did not emerge in that case possibly it could be make all however mayam endless waters so if you're standing on one coast well just because you didn't see him emerge maybe emerge on the other side so you say how did he get there i don't know maybe he found the raft maybe a current rushed him to the other side maybe maybe maybe and even though it's unlikely so we're going to see an under mayam she cannot remarry by himself we'll see able to see the ocean no aimless life yeah we'll see possibly now um the titanic obviously it's sunk in the north atlantic it's named shein loi seif and at first glance and uh miami chandler's life assolino says she can't get married now we're going to say well what if she did and she didn't listen to the man okay so that's the first sugiya um so the gemara nibham is first the mission says if someone fell into water with an end finite or infinite the woman cannot get married that's the opinion of the time to come not like we said right because here we're saying even if it's yeshlam's life she can't get married and and this is the obviously this opinion is even for the remotest myot amara that fell into a pit haggadah fell into a cistern after three days he emerged so what do we see from here even by my just because you say i stood there for a day and the person did not emerge well we're worried according to a mayor maybe a guy stayed under water for a year and when you weren't looking he came up a bar is yeah it's talking about a bar of water and he came up after three days so all the ah what do you mean yeah you can come you can't stay in water for three days you can't even stay there for one day you can't even stay there for one hour nobody could hold their breath for more than i don't know a few minutes certainly after a half hour you're dead so they say various explanations well maybe there was some kind of underwater tunnel maybe there's an air bubble maybe the fish carved out something under the the coast and and the water didn't reach up to the top maybe maybe maybe now is it likely no is it is it really possible no but the mayor says we're dealing with asia system our mayor said i'll tell me saying i'll tell you a crazy story crazy things happen america what if it's infinite in one direction you have a river you can see a cross but you can't see the the shores on the other hand that's miami scythe in other words yes means you could see everything amerisi basuma there's a story about a blind man lit bob amara he went down to immerse in a cave the yard of his attendant went down after him the shohu kadesha tsainapsham and they stayed under water the amount of time that would not would not support life visual and we allowed their wives to marry so that's not like a mayor this is a case of and after witnesses say they stayed under the water long enough that they would not be able to live we tested we allowed their wives to marry okay the shivmaysa there's another story so basically rabiose is arguing on a mayor a mayor says that by mayim shiyeshlo if you can't marry comes rabbi and rabbi says no by mayim you could marry the shuv mice another story ba'asiyah in asia somebody was let down on a chain into the sea volley also the other raglan so then he said i'm going scuba diving just pull me up after a few minutes they pulled they pulled up they pulled up a leg but that's it so so what happened they say the gefilte fishes are they're pretty uh strong down there um they only pulled up a leg like this if they pulled up his thaw his from his knee and up in other words if what they pulled up was not just the leg but had a little bit of the knee and up then tina says she could get married because that means this guy is missing not just the leg he's muslin power of his thigh minor kubo mata is only from the knee and below loitino says she can't get married because in other words this guy obviously is missing a leg so now what does it depend that depends on is missing a lev a mortal wound will that render you a trefa so the only renders you a trefa if you're missing par above the knee if you're missing below the knee it does not render you a trefa now what's very interesting is okay let's say the person let's say you pull up above the knee and the man's atrepha why could she remarry because he didn't survive but when could she remarry because cannot survive for 12 months so according to the rajma and others she could only marry after 12 months according to the rambam she could marry immediately i atrepha cannot survive 12 months that's a trey far walking on dry land a traifer under the water he ain't surviving uh at all okay but we possibly have she has to wait 12 months bottom line is so let's get to the alumnus of my machine learning says so we have macholikis everyone agrees she cannot marry the shah is naim shayesh rab mayor says no remains for the miata says yes someone falls into the water whether it has an end whether it doesn't have an end the woman cannot get married if the water is finite the woman is mutter the shayla himself if there's no end ishta asura the woman is asa so they argue about mayim shayesh we pass can like if somebody falls into a swimming pool and they and they stay there for a half hour and you don't see them come out she could get remarried ah he's not in the pool well you you were watching the whole time and the guy didn't emerge now it could be in a pool is a little bit different because well where is he you know but let's say somebody fell into a small body of water that's uh an enclosed area and stayed there long enough that they can't survive the woman could remarry exactly the first sign of the mishna is is the tanaka is like mayor we don't pass like we passing like um what is the definition of any anytime that you could see all the perimeter all the for right the perimeter of the outside of the body of water that is naim now what is the reason why mayim shayin lohem saif the woman cannot get remarried because maybe he came up the other side now how did he get how did he get to the other side so the answer is the answer is for we are for maybe a lot maybe a log that he held on to and i i didn't see him emerge he emerged on the other side but we'll redefine that very soon so mars says the story hahugavra the tava there is a man who drowned in the swamp of simki here they translate the fen f-e-n anyone know what a fen is me neither it's a swamp basically um married his wife now this swamp is in mayam shiite or mayam shaylham's life obviously if sheila married the wife he thought it was miami shalom's life but um let's put him in because this is a malay hold your horses here before we put him in let's send him a message by the way who are we passing like robert shmuel 50 50 you're gonna get it right actually an expert in practicum so by his monetary laws he knew human dynamics were passing like i believe rav on the other hand rav was more of um purely a torah sage so it comes to israel we pass an aircraft so rav wanted to put the guy in kheram shmuel shmuel on the other hand said no let's let's ask let's ask him why he did it fine so um they asked him i am lohan's wife the woman is uh so they asked him i held like this i can't see to the end but but so what if i can't see to the end but it's stagnant in waters so if it's stagnant waters i thought the shad in my image himself is maybe a current took him to the other end but there are no currents in this body of water so i thought it had a dinner mine safe keeping the cove of the kamehameha even though it's endless but how is he getting from where he drowned to the other end he knows how is he getting 100 miles away i can't see 100 miles away but but the waters uh there's no the water's not taking him but it's not true kiva the eco gully since their waves aimer will say gulli ishbalu the waves took him there so i don't understand what do you mean the waves so the rishi so we're showing him say like this richard says that even though the the stagnant water and they're no iron undercurrents but it's such a big body of water that the wind alone could create movement in the water and could take in there so therefore what happened so shmuel basically now are you going to put such a guy in hiram no because he's not deliberately violent in he erroneously passing that this is mayam shayeshlohem saif so curry shmuel alaydarav shmuel nothing bad happens to a righteous man meaning really ravshilo did not deserve to be puncheram had rav put him in him he would have from an improper so rav said back to ishmael well it's really the credit goes to you curry rabbit yates salvation is with um a lot of advice meaning it's because i took advice from you that i was saved okay the saga continues amar rebbe there's a story about two people very exciting so far it's a story about two people they were making nets in the jordan river the nichnas and one of them entered a borough made by fish now what is a boro made by fish so apparently if this is the water and this is the bank the the fish burrowed into the bank now you would think the water would go there and it usually does but it doesn't necessarily fill up to the top so the man entered the borough not the borough of brooklyn the borough of the bank what happened the shakahama was shikiya and he was lit fish so the day's over the loyra pisces he didn't see the opening of the borough vishakha his friend said well you know it's been nice knowing my other fishman friend let me just wait here long enough that he should die so i could let his wife know that besides the fact that you're not eating tuna tonight also you need to get you know you could get remarried so he decided to wait there kadesha tate say nafsha until the amount of time that he could die uh and he went and he told the other members of his household of the household of this other fisherman in the morning the sun shone the hickory pistol and he saw the opening of the borough meaning the guy who sort of fell into the borrow he sees the opening so he came home and he sat down to hear the beautiful things that they were saying about him at his husband you know the story of the rabbi who uh who was a great speaker the only thing is he didn't do good uh off the cuff so you know he could prepare a killer drusha the only thing is with when it came to hesp them you know he didn't always get advanced warning so what's he going to do you know shabba shubha he already lined up joshua's next 50 years so he decided he's going to write a hesped for every single person in the show in advance the problem was one day there was a big hurricane and it blew his file cabinet out into the street and the whole kahila and hokihila read different hispanics about them and obviously the rav had to become maybe fisherman after that i don't know but by the way this story is nishka how are you flagging this is just i just made it up no anyway it's an old joke so um so the guy came back he walks in this house and he walks in on his husband amma rebbe kama how great are the words of the sages look how great the words of the rabbis are because look you look you see what happens the rabbi said mayhem shane lohan so if you can't get remarried and they were right because this guy he was mistakenly mistaken for dead and they testified that he's dead he walked in on his own funeral said wait a second but if this guy was saved in a borrow of water then should be even so if you can't get married in water that has an end they're not borrowed it's very unlikely to have a burrow made by fish why they're not so many fish and even if you have fish they're not so big and even if they're big they don't usually borrow it's only a naive shame alhamsef okay this next little stickle here is key to the sugiya that has no end the woman can't get remarried hani mili the inish to alma this is only a regular person a regular person a regular person if he disappears so uh nobody's going to find out about him aval tsuba muraba torah scholarly that the wife of a torah scholar if he disappears in mayam sheila himself she could remarry why because um eid the sullivan color either color islay because if he emerged on the other end we're going to find out about it in other words what's the reason why mayam shayne lahem saif what's the reason why mayam shane will him so if she can't get remarried because maybe he got washed to the other side and he's alive well if this person is a famous person we're going to know that that they're alive so what if if it's a if it's a prominent person if it's a swimmer abundant the person there will be a coil there'll be rumors that they're that the person's alive and we don't have to be clashed that the person emerged immediately apparently immediately now it's listen carefully it's very interesting because what do you mean if what what's the reason miami shane muhammad said she can't remarry because we're afraid that the guy got washed to the other side well and we're saying if it's a turbo mirabanon we'll hear we'll hear rumors but what about the other thing maybe he fell into a borough of fish found to borrow a fish we're not what's an afghamina between rabban and a regular person but apparently it's not only by the way it's not only we're worried that it's one of the possibilities that maybe they fell into a borough but one of the possibilities is also they get washed to the other side which would not apply by adsorbing now the gemara ultimately falls off of this okay again but right now the gemara is saying that if the person who fell off the boat the person who drowned was a famous person the woman could get remarried because otherwise we would have heard about it it says no it's not true it's not true there's no nafta meaning between a regular person there's no document between a rabbi the evidence first of all there's no difference between a turmeric and a regular person and second of all this halacha that you can't get remarried is but if she goes ahead and gets married she could stay married if the husband shows up then you can stay married that's we don't send her out if she got married so what happened to the first husband he's dead we're assuming he's dead we're hoping for the best that he's dead right so um okay so so here's the question bottom line is we're saying that even if the woman even if the husband was a famous person she cannot get remarried so take a look on your sheets and number in number where is it your number almost there almost there it's not on your sheets it should have been on it let me just see if i can find it take a look because someone passes oh it's on my sheet tyson let me just spell out tyson will come to it taisu says why can't you rely on the fact that if her husband was a famous person we would have heard about it fractures even though majority of rabbanim is solid if they emerge there'll be rumors we're not concerned with that rove the light he now says you still can't get married so this is uh this this this makes this a very very hammer dikka think about what toys this is saying now baklava if i were to ask you somebody fell into miami shane lohan's life are they alive or are they dead if you were a betting man what would you do how much money would you put down that the guy died right a thousand to one odds right if you if your team which is the you know the predominant favorite uh you're putting money on them it's possible anything can happen but you're assuming that means the challenge the fact the possibility of someone surviving miami shane lohan's life has already arrived it's already arrived they're dead a big rife and to add insult to injury tysos is asking and arrived surbamer abandoned if they would be alive there'd be arrive that they died in other words the majority of tamiya if they survive we're going to hear about it so the possibility that this person is alive is now miyut dimit even so she can't get married so what do we see from here then the situation of nayam shayla himself which already is very unlikely he's alive it would seem that even if you have another additional very strong factor to say the husband died you still can't be make all that's what you see from this tysus so you can't trivialize and say well anyway it's unlikely he's alive and i'll just add another kula in there and i'll find one no you see from tyson's and the ramosha writes in the chuva you see from this tysus that even trey ruby two rives you still have to be mahmee so that's an important side you see from texas okay you mean what's the reason you want to know what's the reason huh yeah um why is it an exceptional we said it just so you understand it still i mean ruby daruba um okay so i wasn't even gonna get into this but take a look in twice this and you there's a macholicus and tyson regarding why we're number eight and number nine oh by the way take a look in your sheet it's also not any shade are you related to the div husker the marijuana all right close enough i'm going to stay over diver yeah do i have it here yeah let's see if i have it um like this he says bottom line is is it really possible for somebody to survive i am shaytan it's impossible the lotion of the gemara is is what do you mean how great are the words what does it have to do with the greatness of the words of meaning when this person emerged we said oh look how great the words are the concept is like this the torah controls the world yeah the torah controls the world whatever the halacha is the creates the reality of the word the world when the saying that creates the possibility and nature that when someone falls in love it's not hopeless they could survive okay but in any event let's so so you want to know so what's the shot over here why taka could a woman not get married so there's the macholicus and taisus and taisus and ibumus says look at number eight taiswa says on third line this is not a regular miata normally we follow arrive himself is what's called a mirt matsuya a likely improbability we added right i mean even arrive on top of that still that's because the first rove is not a real rive on the other hand taisus in bahrain bays taisus says this wants to know you know when do we follow arrive um is a very interesting question tyson says this wants to know why bidi aved if a woman gets married could she stay married there's a mia that he's alive and let that miat support the kasha to which tyson says [Music] but the reason is because of the assess so we should let us stay married until the husband shows up it's such a small miata that it's not likely to happen and we'll have to face that shia here look here the mordecai the basically the mordechai and your vamas asked this question we passed in that when you have a miyot and the zakah were makhmir so in this case mira people survive and she has haskas ishas ish so what's the shadow over here so the gumma she is right so the moroccan gives two answers either we allow her to stay married because of the gunahiki or it's a mioceno okay remember i better say let's just let's finish the gemara here at least and the gemara says like this kumar says um what's going on i was once on the you know the nina the the pinto santa maria and i was on the boat next door to me were broke i was very upset about there was a time on the other boat which time in rabbi akiva well i came out to dry land and i came into bed and guess who my co-rabbi was on the bus then rabbi akiva was sitting next to me so i said it's really nice to see you today especially because i was in the middle of riding your hesmid so in every wave that came over me roshi i docked my head by the way ramir shapiro has a famous drawshot on this gemara that this is the makar for daffy me because here rev kiva was being swept away by the current of this world and what happened is dominantly daft the daf came my way and every gal every wave that wanted to ride me under i i bowed my head so rameshwara once brought this as a ap drush you know yeah the daffodil me stays in mekano from here the rabbis say that by the way if a russia comes to attack you it comes to abuse you yanana roy should just like sort of bow your head and you know wait until it passes at that moment i said how great are the words of sages and i was upset that the boat next to me was going under a manner of mayor ramirez on the boat okay i had a court case bob yash all of a sudden my co-rabbi is one wave ramirez me to the next action until it spit me out onto the dry land so rabbi says the bottom she cannot get me married why maybe a wave carried maybe in his diamond maybe you fell into a burrow in the water maybe maybe maybe but then there's one more gemara well and we'll conclude like this yeah the thing is all of these things they came up on the dry land but all these things they came up on the other side but if it's mayam sheisham so if you would have seen it if you're standing there on the seashore and you're there long enough that nobody could survive and you don't see him don't see the person no you should be able to get married again by my what by himself you are allowed to get married we pass when you are oh by himself even if these things happen right okay fine just one more gamer says there's a guy walking around saying is there anyone here from the house of beija from khasa tava khasa khasa drowned omar of nachman rav nachman said ah he drowned right this was a case of shin lam's wife oh aloy kim i take an oath eaten by a big tuna fish so ravnakum is going down the street saying that a tuna airhasa so his wife heard she said all right so i'm going to marry someone murderer yeah this guy the guy said he's gone but the question is this was my in-law so we have no evidence that that her husband's dead says from here we see him so if only she can't get married but the evide if she gets married she could stay married avalinas there are those who say in sabah rav um what do we see from here we see a very important thing that uh but is it banan or is it raisa if it's midday rice uh it can't be midaraisa why not because if it would be madaraisa then if she would have gotten married she would have to get divorced if there would be people married here but the with hello would be we would have forced to get divorced the fact that it's only in israel abundant now if it's only used to draw bone on we have what to work with why because with the suede rabbit on you could be mastari of kules but the problem is and with this we'll have to continue we're going to have to do this after she was also it's good it's a good suggestion um the problem is there's a mission on gittin that this halacha of him so if you can't get married only that's if you see the person drown but if you don't see the person drowned if you just see a boat go down then it could be then midday rice so she can't get married and if it's midday right so she can't get married there's no way you're gonna be able to be mad to her so now the case of the titanic very unlikely anybody saw somebody go down and was there long enough not to see them come up it's only again but they're on the boat still they're on them there's no hetero at all so posh this is this is a very very difficult challenge and we will continue with this hashem next time you've just experienced another torah class brought to you by torahanytime.com