Tisha B'Av: Sugya of Kamtza Bar Kamtza - The Misplaced Humility of Rav Zecharia Ben Avkulas

this torah class is brought to you by torahanytime.com we're going to be discussing today the gemaran gittin bays if you should have the sheets this is a famous sugi of kansa barcamsa however there are many many many questions on every line you can ask questions but we're just going to be reading the gemara a little bit quickly until we get up to one niku the one line that i want to focus on so you may have a lot of questions the point is not necessarily the whole story it's one specific line in the gemara so let's get the background from the two dots on the bottom of mohammed bays what does the plastic mean fortunate is a person who's always afraid but um but someone who hardens his heart will fall on evil what's that supposed to mean you're always supposed to be afraid right who said have no fear right well well toys this explains what this is referring to is that a person has to be afraid of the repercussions of their actions person sometimes says you know big deal i do this out there do that of era what could happen already person has to always constantly think about what the repercussions of their actions are and the gemara says you know this is referring to three instances in jewish history number one because of the episode of camps and back hampshire jerusalem was destroyed at times because of a rooster and a hen the torah malca the mountain of the king was destroyed and i sack of the wrist book because of the side of a carriage khara beta beta was destroyed there was a guy we'll call him beryl his friend was kamsa obama barcamp so his enemy was barkampson all that sudah so he made a party maybe even made us see him um he told his attendant zilli kanta go invite kamsa invite mr kamsa ozal so they're at the party barrels looking around the party at all his friends and lo and behold he sees that barakamsa was sitting back hunter was sitting at the party i'm late not this i'm late misty let's see you are my enemy in other words that man referring to you are the enemy of that man referring to me you're my enemy my boss taka what are you doing here come get up pike get out right get out in other words go fly a kite go jump in the lake right skedaddle i'm aller he said since i came shopkin let me be and guess what i'll pay for my meal you don't want me to be here i'll foot the bill for my email i'll pay for what i ate and what i drank um he said no over my dead body he said get out of here why no um i'll pay for half the party i'll even pay for the ice cream i'll pay for the schnapps every half the party he said get out of here knock save the other he picked him up booked me he stood him up the apk he kicked him out he said don't let the door close behind you i'm relay amma he said i don't understand rabbi so-and-so was at this party and rabbis that and that was at the party and the admiral was there and nobody said boo nobody said boo obviously they approved of what happened to me omari said the rabbis with their vladimir they didn't protest so we see they obviously were pleased with what happened by the way the marshall says that the person who made the party was very powerful they were not able to speak up okay be resume he went and he ate cortza he ate winks he ate winkies he ate wings what does that mean he ate wings where do we have that where did that statement kevin here danielle they tattled he ate wings he said lost in heart because usually when you speak washing hara you say it over a good meal you make yourself comfortable you sit down you lean back you sip some tea you eat some winks and why winks also the good bali washing hara they don't have to say anything they go right they know how to motion and wink at the guy without saying anything they're already a big ballast but yeah yeah the news yeah oh okay so um he went to the caesar and he said mardu bach yehudai the jews are rebelling against you my latest caesar said me amar who says send them a carbon they went and they uh sent an igla tulsa okay a cop from the third born a half of the third bird how do you know equilibrium absurd the third born cat is the fattest is the most the strong the juiciest meat the first one you know the mother sister is the lord there's another the third developed is this softest meat it's the softest meat no you're saying that if it grew up if it grew a third that's the softest smell oh okay i hear it says don't say that like that right okay does it not to say that upset okay but if some say like that all right okay so anyway on the way they're bringing the animal shadow mumma bar kamsa but my professional opinion is that a cadre can only be diagnosed through a microscope through us uh and uh it's not a minimum it's not a membership okay that could be developed from dramatic awesome the rajma says how do you cause a cataract a specialist would know how to incur inflict a certain kind of wound which would engender a cataract right okay so anyway so what's the big deal about this because there's a thing our guardian allowed to bring carbinous to the base of mcdonagh yeah yes our grandma had to bring carbonus in their backyard yes what's the difference they bring a carbon in their backyard it can't be a machus or eva it can't be missing a limb but it could have a mum but if they send it to the design it can't have a mum so he made a mum which normally if a guy would bring the carbon in his backyard it would be uh offerable and now this mom is only something that we're we're bothered by because even though it is oscillating a carbon that's about mum but for the sake of peace peace you gotta do it you gotta do so they thought to bring the carbon ah my lahu ribs you know if people see what you're doing in the basement that you're being macro about mum then people are going to think the wrong khalakha and they're going to think you could be mac of about them so they said who knows that's the covering that that is doing no one else will know well there was one client that inspected it and there are all kinds of oh you swore into secrecy no situation is so they they did two things two negative things no one spoke up and they didn't uh and they made them and they made a move not they no well come to me the objection is that people are going to say malay moomin craven so they mixed the idea [Music] also you know brought the animal into the base amita she brings it to the cayenne so what are you going to do who's going to know barcamps is going to tell everyone look the kahamim offered about mum what do you mean who's going to say that hamsa is going to say they should [Music] why not i'll try as i yes i thought not i thought oh you can understand that's what you thought you can't even say something so they could go out uh you swirl and go with miss bayern no yes sir [Music] of the king but couldn't they roll right the um what do you mean guys you know why couldn't they override i'm not sure what kind but they could offer cabanas yeah why how okay so they thought they they served as harry and copeland said young rebellion movement craven they got him his bath so now they said you know what barcanta is putting us in a very precarious situation he's twisting our hand to offer this karma let's just kill my cancer we'll just kill him because he's a write date which is a halacha sover the mcdelay um they wanted to kill back outside of lima because he's going to go and tell i'm aloha rebel mumbai people are going to think that if you put a mum in a carbon it's just me fine and they they listen to rabzikaibrichos serves raise two objections objection number one is don't offer the carbon because you're a rebellion movement craven objection number two is don't kill back hamsa because young ru mata mumba kachimi haring amarav and the sanusa sheriff and caused the temple to be burnt vaguely and exiled us from our land because this brought on the onset of myths it wasn't yeah give us that but it was this guy on the kayak no but he appears in the midrash i i don't know if he appears elsewhere in shots but he does appear on the mattress on the words in such a big level that they would listen to him i mean yeah yeah he was the original how do you know what he was if he's not mentioned anywhere else weasel what i mean what do you name any rebbe and shasta's now does anybody have the original the other this is it yeah he's a tanner he's a top you take two from this one no one one second who took the other pile here okay the question is like this we want to know what did we even of who was right was right what does that mean good question what is this why does it mean the humility of the kaiba says was too humble what was the humility that he tolerated by concept so one second let's let's try to understand this first of all who was correct the rep was absolutely right or not no no no the conclusion of the gemara is criticizing him saying his his uh misguided animals caused the race to make this to be destroyed in other words the rabbano's initial reaction of bringing the carbon was correct and then their other reaction of killing backhand so it was correct why was that correct let me talk why is that correct why was it correct to bring the carbon but it's an israeli rice that's imaginable no to be macro of the carbon because of because jewish lives are on the line you should have done it it's worthwhile to violate and esther division that was what the held so what did riv you could be uh you could be right right exactly to save a life you could be to save a life and this is saving israel or or many jews what did the kaiban of kulas hold why did rab zakhari bin of kulas he said no but what was he worried about your people will say ballet movement craven that people will misjudge and think that you could bring a moon a carbon with a man fine wonderful but jewish lives are on the line okay he didn't hold up the fascists so now it winds the winds up we can't bring any club on it now again what did you ask maybe to the understanding no he helped me you have an answer to this question of course he held things in my hand yes he helped us yeah but i was talking before yeah that's right that yeah he wouldn't have said that his humility was the cause he was saying out now he made a mistake and that mistake [Laughter] that caused him to have this bias in making this mistake in allah and you were explaining so again the granted is i'm not there there's certain things that are not up to debate here the what what's not affirmative skyrockets was wrong but yeah concludes his anivis is misguided i need his cousin to make a mistake but i want to know if what was his position who cares if people are going to say bali moom and kraven but jewish lives are you allowed to make a phone call if somebody needs hat solo yeah are you of course you're allowed to desecrate hawaii to save life so what was the question of course thinking and you explained what it was first important when you do we put on the light or you can make a phone call yeah this is a one-time thing yeah but if you're gonna do something which ladies is going to keep making a virus because they're going to think that you can do with the moon carbonus that's maybe more severe and that's why he uh even though it's only a love even though it's not yeah okay so let's let's take let's analyze this there's a a very famous yamcha shilomah last time we called the amsterdam there's a very famous amsterdam what's going on above the camera the commerce is like this is the roman government sent two officers to the comments and they said teach us their torah yeah teach us your time so the the roman government sent two messengers to the israel and they said teach us your torah so taisus asks how could the ham comply right the next words are karu the shanu vishileshu they taught them once they taught them twice they taught them three times tysos asks how were the ham allowed to teach these roman officers tara you're not allowed to teach a guy tyra of course this was uh so twice this gives two answers number one when the government says teach us torah you teach them torah you don't have to risk your life not to violate the sin of teaching god in taiwan yes it's a big idea to teach tyra if you want to go around to the world and teach uh marcus or to in colleges to us it's awesome i say how could they do it their lives are on the line they're not required to give up their life fine that's number one number two imami also asks from gay rim taisus says these guys they came to scott masqueraded as gay room they said we're jewish fine says the gemara so they taught them ganshas and the said you know it's beautiful but i have we have one correction they said um we investigated and it's true except for one halacha what's the halacha my rim because you guys say shar shall you start potter if the jews car crashes into a garisha car your potter right that if a jewish car if you damage a guy you're potter and shar shall kanani but a ghost animal going so the game said we don't get it the torah says um right you can't have it both ways if you if are like you didn't so then we should only pay we should be higher you should be higher if you go gorgonium and if are not like you didn't so then they should be putter if they damage us when it says rayhu it means daffodil so then you guy that damages a jew should be potter and if ray was laughed after so then a jew that damages the clown you should be hayev fine that's the gemara the gemara says that the learned taira and there was one thing they weren't masculine to says the yamcha soma i don't understand these are giving shirt to the gayam why'd they have to tell them this why didn't they skip that subject why did they say okay the details of axes are beyond the scope of today's lecture or weren't they skipping entirely i mean the gallium they didn't have art school gamaras so they were subject to whatever the teaching them skip their topics apparently the game they pressed them they said what's the jew goes again in order to save jewish lives why when the said to the jews when a god igor is a jew what's the halacha are you allowed to lie to save your skin of course so why did they go why were the such big sadiq that they they should have made up a bubba mice so when it came to this did they do that when they wrote this they changed no they didn't okay good question we're going to get to that awesome no and the gemara magillo and tao mai commissioned yeah so says they read so yamsha shomo asks what were these thinking why do they have to say the whole truth says the amsterdam you know what we learn from here look at number three even in a place of danger you can't distort the halacha what do you have to give up your life you have to give up your life you're obligated to give up your life for this what does it say this nine years ah it's not one of the three there's nothing that could get under the skin of the gallium more they're allowed to change where are they all out of change how they change the lockers over the years we've changed we've changed no we'll see we're never allowed to change so the answer and give up jewish lives not to be a kuiper yes we gave up the whole nation no not the whole nation we mean the whole nation we're talking about cops i'm not talking we're not talking about cancer one second one second part of idolatry right the rambam learns right if some if a person is a person allowed to uh is a person allowed to save his life by saying i don't believe the tar's men are shamayim no well which one of the big three is it it's included in kfira that's creeper it's kira so in other words this is a very big changing a minor myth on the torah is under the is under the umbrella of fira right maybe that that's what you're trying to say before it's fira so therefore they had to answer the truth our pms because for them to say that the is a guy that damages a jew is or a jew that damages a guy right for them to say a guy that damages his path or a jew that damages a guy if that would be a distortion of the that is kephirah okay so obviously if you teach that to it to a year and you change it but if you teach it to a guy who cares between you and me that they came as they they came maybe so they would not let me ask you a question when they were writing to say the torah can i get an answer for my question yeah so what the answer is you can't misrepresent the tyrant anyway give it to a guy even to a guy that's not it is clear why why do we have a question are you allowed to say are you allowed to say you're a christian to save your life just but even though you know you're not they did the muranos did no it's they were wrong they were wrong they were wrong they weren't allowed now we understand why they did it even we what if you bow down to the buddha and you say oh god that was one thing if i say to you you can't say it is distorting misrepresenting the torah in any way is clear and you have to give up your life they changed the torah so it gives two very interesting answers on the second coming either they had viral hashem gave them license to do it he says and also they didn't distort any halachas all they did is they changed the language they changed the language flow instead of voracious bar like him i like him barbara voracious so it wasn't that they didn't do that yeah they did they did no no they didn't change that they changed the wording in order not to offend tamai but this is the principle yamcha soma you can't actively misrepresent allah obviously you know mr nathan is jumping on me that's why i want to apply it to uh anything that what was his position that of course jewish life is on the line and it's not right a carbon the carbon has a moment so let's be marker of the carbon for sean on the other hand what's the difference how do you know there's a hylic between that isn't that what the amsterdam was saying you're allowed to put cloud you're still in jeopardy not to misrepresent the aleppo but there were no other tanonian that how hell different opinions would say actually apparently it was a very difficult question nobody listen to him right from from malcolm the beginning of the morning says he goes into whatever yeah even to save claudius okay okay that's very good but that's um it could be a different channel no he's uh signing ourselves above the camera that um someone who has to go to the in marcus if when the right seth runs away to the arie miklot let's say he's like the general of kaiser like venezuela is he allowed to leave to save claudia swell no no there there's a different reason by the way you want to say the reason is because he's misrepresenting why is he misrepresenting doesn't make a difference oh you think there's no difference okay but but by calm but by them saying that the kimbora braces they also misrepresented the torah how are they allowed to no it was a different type in the process no it's not a different type in the beginning it's not a different type god created in the beginning instead of in the beginning god created you but it means something else no it means it means it means that god wasn't in the beginning no that's what they would have thought so we touched it god created in the beginning god created it but it's still not exactly the same we still can't say that i've been of course held is like the amsterdam that they're misrepresenting why because the amsterdam is talking about a case for the go ahead and give a shear that a guy that damages the jew is higher even though it's not but the comment by being macro of the carbon the base of mikdash they're not actively promoting uh a wrong halacha they're not saying wrong it's just people are gonna think from their actions and they could come out and say give a that we're doing this only for sure however i want to point out that with moisha feinstein in a chuva in an unrelated issue extends the yamcha slo-mo then not only are you you're not allowed not only do you have to give up your life not to actively misrepresent the torah you're you have to give up your life not to do an action from which people may derive right what's the case you ready for this is the married man allowed to wear a wedding ring so now we're not now we're not we're not actually that's not the shyla the shiloh is bombering there are some at a wedding are you allowed to have a dual ring ceremony what's the dual-ring ceremony the husband gives the wife the ring and he says harey on the caduceus look at that and then the wife gives the husband the ring and says dashas says it's an israel and not only that you have to be moist or nephesh not to do it why says it maisha give the ring afterwards first of all he doesn't discuss that he doesn't give a ring an answer one second one second says the motion is also to do this number one since this is something that do at their weddings they have a dual ring ceremony why do they let me go why do gaiam do it because it's there she does that they do it so therefore for us to mimic that would be um right um even if they're not doing it even if they're doing it because they have a certain to do even if it's not a violation of hugo assembly you still shouldn't do it at the wedding why because it says it much this is analogous to the gemaran shabbos and not be a dollar that it used to be when they went to the mikvah they went to making these slimy rivers and afterwards what you got to do take a shower so everybody sees you go into the slimy river and then you clean yourself off with your you know ivory soap and people say it's not the slimy river it's the soap it's the it's the shower so people started only taking showers so as a gazera that people shouldn't think the shower is an attire it's the same thing with the dual ring ceremony if people are going to see the woman giving the husband the ring they're going to think that's theater that's the second that's the last thing being done that's right the woman gives a ring then you break the glass so people are going to think that's another important part of marriage and then they're going to come to think that's the only important part of marriage so the same way that said you can't take a shower after a mikvah they would also probably say a woman can't give the husband the ring aye the comment didn't say that and we can't make up new gazeros says it's the exact same gezera oh it's not eden it's actually another thing there's a bigger problem with it and that is the that if people are going to go to a wedding and they're going to see the woman give the man a ring and people are going to think that that's part of the conduction so you're misrepresenting the dinum of the torah you have to be moist or nephesh not to misrepresent the dino tower i the color is not giving a drusha i want everyone to know that i'm also part of the marriage ceremony it's only people who are unlearned who are deriving it from their that's all part of the israeli amsterdam that not only you now that i actively misrepresent the tara says look in number four who is love it's a loud and then he says to change what problem would have emerged if would have darshan that if you damage you have to pay them is that violating the torah to pay them money anyway even though your father no so why couldn't him for the sake of shalom say even though you're a technical partner give them the money anyway but the tourist says they're not tired they're changing the law fine you can give it it's not it's not a kill what's the cocoa says the cocoa is you're changing the truth you're changing you're misrepresenting the halal even though you're not so he says he says in other words says don't darshan that is wrong just give them the money the answer is if you're going to give them the money from that action people are going to derive your evolution so then we could apply very simply that what is the event if you're going to be macro of the carbon and based on even though you're not announcing that is bali movement craven people are going to think bali movement craven and you're misrepresenting and that's so i think we've done a good job in uh defending us well obviously rebecca doesn't agree so why was the kaibab kulas wrong is focusing on what was his majesty it's not modesty it's his maybe his lack like you asked before maybe it's his lack of knowledge of the but as far as we're concerned right now you know he got it right maybe there's a printer error yeah where jack was switched so if you change the noon to the vote it's a bonus [Music] that [Laughter] is very interesting we find that this is this is a very big hitters first of all that a person has to be moister and finished not to misrepresent in other words if somebody would tell you go give a shirt that you don't have to wash negovassa in the morning absolutely different that's true so what would right otherwise he's going to kill a hundred jews would you be allowed to give the share no you can't mess with representative we find a very interesting tube in the night of you there what's the tuva it's not on the sheet unfortunately there was a woman there was a city being captured by and they were going to murder all the jews in the city and there's a very beautiful woman there and she went and she seduced the head of the of the garish army she was masana with him and in the meantime everyone escaped and they asked another did she do the right thing or did she do the wrong thing problem so soon placement said she did the right thing to save the city and call yourself sounds like that's the people and it sounds like esther that's what esther did exactly what esther did they said the major said she never had relations with him but uh he punched us she did right okay but gemara said she did so says that she did the wrong thing why because whenever it's your horizon doesn't matter how many jews you're saving right hi if the woman is proactive and she goes out of her way she's not going alone so what about esther says to save the entire classroom it's different oh so why he couldn't say that every single jew is in danger huh yeah of course how every jew is in danger every jew in the whole world the jews and uh who didn't come back the jews and bubble were in danger yeah all right no digitally no you don't know what the council would have done so now we're learning a rule that in an you have to give your life doesn't matter how many jews are going to be destroyed unless it's all of khali israel it was really awesome so one second one second and how about in the times of the yama yes esther was saving all prizes how about in the time zone there were jews in europe that wasn't part of his kingdom no they weren't no they said no there were no he wrote all the words how about the times of the answer why does the yam show say you have to be mice and efforts not to misrepresent i they were putting many jews in in uh in danger the answer is many jews but uh many jews you have to give up your life even if it means same engine how about counsel so to say that the entire claudius was in jeopardy you can't say that we don't find that the romans rule the kippah but we do find a different shuva you ready for this the um in the times of the khida there was a city in aarhus israel a city in arizona was saved and they asked if they're allowed to say hello and said no oh why because you could only say how else if all of cloudy soil was safe not if it's only a minority class or a small segment or so that they asked so this asset satellite forget makusha that when the base has mktosh is in jeopardy it's considered the life of all claudius when the base hashes and window it's a matter of the baseline mcdosh about cancer and you're under roman rule and the romans were out against the same gosh you're jeopardizing the basal mitosis which is to take on your shoulders this sock that even though in 99.9 percent of the cases you're never allowed to misrepresent aloha what is the one limited case you're allowed to misrepresent now you have to make a big decision is the base hamiktash halachically consider like you gotta step up to the plate have groice of places and take on your shoulders this awesome responsibility to say this is a hierarcha this is a different circumstance under these circumstances you have to mystery represent me who am i to say such a thing who am i you think i'm so great to be able to take upon myself this great responsibility to say this calls for hirasha that this is different than the german baba kama in baba kama they were not allowed to misrepresent the harassment so in this case in this case i'm going to say that i'm the god of adar and say this is different who am i i don't feel worthy for the tasks the humility of us he should have taken about himself the responsibility to say this is not like the young shalom who is meek and uh feels he's not worthy for the occasion and doesn't want to take that he wasn't carrying on because he refused to go to parliament he kept on saying me kara should do it he's the god of door yeah yeah look who creates god tells you to do something you he doesn't say this whole thing he doesn't bring in the amsterdam that says he just says this calls for look look over here in the middle of the piece behind you this is under these circumstances it would have been permitted to destroy the kingdom argument they would have done the right thing he's running after khalifa for ula he didn't muster the gods he didn't have what we call the guy with the kadusa he didn't have the necessary gumption you know what are they going to write about me and you know the jewish this and the jewish that and this paper and that paper and all the editorials they're going to say i've been the wrong wimpy limpy he's better than anybody you ever know right he was afraid they would suspect him by russia he didn't have the gumption to say this case before it wasn't russia it wasn't time for us right it was the wrong time he felt he's not counted among the and because of this concern that he raised and maybe the other did not have sufficient power to overrule him is a very important lesson you know people say oh it's only a small little haraha for the sake of peace you know even among other jews yeah for the sake of peace we'll overlook when it comes to misrepresenting you have to be moist or nephesh not to misrepresent an iota okay you've just experienced another torah class brought to you by torahanytime.com