Education Without Limits

Hello everyone and welcome to the O U podcast. Hello everyone and welcome to the O U podcast. Today it's our pleasure to welcome in the head of the Ivdu schools, Rabbi Michol Dovid Drewin. Thank you for being here. It's my pleasure. Looking forward. We are we're all looking forward. This This has been a hard get. Uh you know, to to to get you to come in and we're we're We are already elevated by you and everything that you do here at the O U and Yachad and Ivdu and we're looking forward to hearing more about it. I'm here. Great. >> Yeah. So let's start with the hardest question we ask. Who are you? Oof. I've heard you ask that question in previous ones and I decided not to think about it until this moment. Great. >> Great. Because that's the deepest question to ask. I'm a person with a guf and a neshama. I have a soul that Hashem gave me and I have a guf that has its talents and has its challenges and together we have a a journey. Um perhaps as we go down the road of this journey, Dovid Hamelech says, "To'eisi kaseh oyved." I'm wandering like a wandering Jew. I have a very long story. It's a 58-year story and it has many many stops along the way that brought me to where I'm happiest ever at the O U. I'm glad to hear that I'm glad to hear that and you know, that is a little bit about your history which we're going to talk about. But if I could press you, who are you? I am a head of school. That's what I do. I am a person that knows that I was put into this planet with a mission. I try and figure that out every day what my mission is. I have many roles to play. I am a father. I am a husband which everybody says cuz we are. We have that personal side which is our family and we have our business side which is our job. I try and look a little bit higher than both of that and say to myself that that ultimately I shouldn't put us down in this world to make an impact on this world and we got to try and do that every single day that we can. And in Mitzvah Sham today will also be one of those days that we could both walk away and say, "You know what? That was quite interesting." Um but that's who I am. A person that really tries to make every day the best that it can be and make the best choices that I can. I remember telling my kids when they were teenagers, "The best gift that I can give you is to make good choices. That's all I'm asking you to do. Make good choices." And sometimes you will, sometimes you won't, but at least pause and say, "You know what? What's the right choice?" That's a great thing. I wish I could go back now to my kids and tell them that, but I guess I could start today. So, thank you for that. And certainly your life has been one filled with mission-driven your own personal mission as well as a tough kid and a role uh that uh Kadosh Baruchu has blessed you with and should continue to bless you with until 120 plus. Amen. Thank you. >> Okay, lots more to do. So, let's start early on. Where did you grow up? I always answer the same thing and my kids who may listen to this are going to laugh and say, "Well, how much time do you have and where do you want to start?" Cuz I was born in LA. >> We have about 6 hours, so let's go. Let's go. I was born in LA. I grew up in a village called Migdal, then moved to Rishon LeZion. Where's Migdal for our audience? Migdal is a small village on the shores of the Kinneret between Tiberias and Safed, not far from Kibbutz Kinusar, right beneath Har Arbel. That is I lived there for 7 years as a kid from the age of 3 to 10. I started my schooling there in a Beit Sefer Mamlakhti Al Shem Avigdor, a public school. Uh we can sidetrack as much as you wish. My parents were uh inspired by Carlebach, but were strong Zionists and therefore found a village that they were the only English-speakers at the time and chose that to be their place. My father left that academia. He was a professor of philosophy and decided to become a farmer. And that's where I grew up. They slowly found more of Yiddishkeit and when I was when I was uh eight, they moved me to a yeshiva in Tiberias called uh Or Torah. Rabbi Avraham Aroubas alav hashalom, he was uh the Rebbe of Jerusalem at the time, so that was his school. Um so that's just a small little chapter of a very long, as I mentioned, 58-year travel. I had an uncle, alav hashalom, um and he was a doctorate in biochemistry, and he went to Israel and became made aliyah and became a farmer as well. Wow. >> Father was a philosopher. Oh, wow. Right? Your No, your father was >> My father was a philosopher. philosopher, right? So PhD in philosophy, a professor of philosophy. What kind of philosophy what was he? Cuz I'm a He He actually did not complete his PhD. He left uh my grandmother, alav hashalom, would always tell me he left just before he submitted his dissertation cuz he came was more important to make aliyah, so he left. Uh I'm going to sneak it in and say, but baruch Hashem, my son just became a doctor. That was a tough My father says to his grandson, "You're the first doctor, Rabbi Doctor Druin." Uh so it fulfilled a dream that my grandmother, alav hashalom, had that we'd be a Doctor Druin, so it had to wait a few generations. Amazing. >> Cuz I'm not a doctor, either. Amazing. Uh you're not a doctor, but like if you start going down your resume, I have a list here of I don't know, seven or eight schools and degrees and things, most in the Harvard, right? Among them. I I I'm not sure people would recognize Intec College, which was in South Africa. >> South Africa. That's the place where I did a diploma in uh in psychology. How long How did you get to South Africa? How long were you there? So, the South Africa story begins with my older brother. He was a shaliach. He was sent by the Rebbe to South Africa to open a yeshiva there. Uh We skipped cuz when did Chabad and Lubavitch become part of your When I was uh 13, my older brother was in Yeshiva Kol Torah which was sure shalom and he started learning Tanya with some bruses and mashgiach in the musar seder said them uh-uh you can't learn it now. He went to Rabbi who said yes he can learn it now. So he continued learning Tanya then he started going to Chabad and he became involved with Chabad and slowly but surely brought the rest of family with. I was the last one to join. I I was very happy where I was in Yeshiva Eitri I was learning and I was learning musar with Rav Shkedy one of the ramie Yeshiva over there and I really enjoyed it and I I I I enjoyed Chabad but I was happy where I was. And eventually I Rav Tuvia Bloy he was well he's still alive he was a well known writer in Chabad magazine my parents had me go and talk to him. I was a young nobody but I don't know where I had that chutzpah perhaps I was 14 2015 and I spoke to him and he said let's write to the Rebbe and explain why you want to stay where you are and he convinced me he was smarter than me that if I don't get an answer that means I should move to Chabad Yeshiva. And I agreed to that deal. So I wrote a letter didn't get an answer and I moved to Lut. So I went to Chabad Yeshiva. So your brother might be the only case in history of somebody who went to a Yekkish Litvish Kol Torah Yeah. with Rabbi Zalman >> Yeah. Zichrono l'vracha >> Yeah. and became Chabad there. >> Amazing. Yes. What a story. But perhaps his encouragement because that was a critical moment where he said yes definitely can learn Tanya in the musar seder. Wow. Okay. Wow. >> was yeah. Fantastic. >> If you listen to your history is even longer than mine. >> love to hear a few years longer. I would love to hear that that conversation. That's fascinating. Okay so you end up so he end up in South Africa? So he ended up in South Africa. He then came back to the US. He was shliach there for Yeshiva for two years came back to US got married and was offered a job in South Africa. Um at this stage uh teaching my first job as an educator, the teacher in a school in Miami Beach, in Florida. And he says to me, "Why don't you come for Pesach and come visit the family?" So I was single. I went there for Pesach and >> Johannesburg? >> This is Johannesburg and uh the Rosh Yeshiva, the local Yeshiva there, saw me over Pesach and said, "I need you to come work for me in the Yeshiva." It was a Chabad Yeshiva. "Why don't you come work for me in the Yeshiva? You'll be the Mashgiach in the Yeshiva." Uh and I said, "No, I'm happy where I'm at. I'm not interested, but uh he said, "Look, the job is yours if you want it." I came back and uh my mother's mother, alav hashalom, said to me, "You'll never forgive yourself if you don't try something new. Some comes your way, try it out." So then convinced me too much. I spoke to my parents. My parents were nervous about shidduchim. I was already of age for shidduchim. So I actually wrote to the Rebbe to say that I was offered this job. My parents are not comfortable cuz shidduchim and I'm not really excited about it. His answer was I should ask yedidim muvinim, which is plural, two understanding friends. I asked two rabbonim who I consider as my friends, and they both answered separately the same exact thing. Tell the Yeshiva that if they want to employ you, that's fine. You can take the job, but they got to fly you back every 3 months to the US, which in those days was a very expensive but direct flights, apartheid at that stage, and so you can continue on with shidduchim. So I started there in July and flew back for Tishrei, came back again, and the day before I flew back for Chanukah, I met my wife. Wow. So Okay. >> 15 more years in South Africa. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. And so you you continued your education while you were there, right? And you continued your education also, you got smicha while you were in Florida. So like there's a there's there's a whole baruch Hashem. I love learning and uh yeah, learning has its informal and formal. So formal is uh You also got a degree at Bellevue University. >> Yeah. That was a distance learning program. >> Okay, cuz it it's in Nebraska, right? >> there. Couldn't travel there. It was uh in fact the professor met the cohort here in New York. Uh so it was a distance learning was different than today, which is online learning. So this was a hybrid. We did a lot of work online. We had to submit and then we had to meet the professor in person every so often and uh yes, that's where I got my master's degree educational leadership. Awesome. And so you have a whole history of teaching in various different schools, South Africa, um Miami, um certainly uh then you made it your way to Atlanta at some point also, right? Yep. Um good experiences like what uh did did you always think about going into leadership and and administration or it was sort of like that was just sort of happened? How how how how did that work? >> It really was in in South Africa where I was uh I found myself after 5 years there I found myself have a as a rabbi of a shul of the capital Pretoria and then I was also then being placed to be in charge of a simultaneous job to be in charge of the Carmel Hebrew day school that was the Jewish day school there. So I was going to be what would be equivalent to head of school. Uh that school was a K-12 under 100 students uh and it wasn't viable. Uh uh to cut a long story short, within about a year we we transferred the school into what's today a for-profit school called Crawford College. You can buy stocks in Crawford College. It was a Jewish day school with 1,500 students of which 100 were Jewish. The rest were not. But they chose to come to the Jewish day school because Grant Crawford who was my partner in this business uh I wasn't the owner. I was the representative of the Jewish community because we owned it and he came to run it. His model basically was that uh you run the best school in the country, everybody wants to go to it and even though you have your closed on shabbos and kosher food and you have your whole Judaic program, we'll give the non-Jewish kids extra French and extra German extra art extra drama extra whatever while the Jewish kids have their part of it. And it worked. So we within within second year that he opened at full capacity and um until today still traded as a in the stock exchange in Pretoria. So, that was my first my first move into leadership. I I can never did. To be honest, yeah, that's the truth. I I I looked at it always as as it's something that came my way. I wasn't looking for it. Um and the whole situation we were actually challenged by the constitutional court of South Africa cuz we had all kinds of rules the Jewish kids have to wear yarmulkes, but the non-Jewish kids don't, and therefore how does that work? And and it was it's a whole story to itself, but it's a the model of a for-profit school that doesn't exist in the US, but it's an interesting model and um another another chapter you and I can talk about if you wish. Um but that was my that was my uh circumstantial move into leadership of the school. Um and then when I moved back to the US, I was the first rabbinic dean and associate head of the what's called today the Sheck Hillel Community Day School. It was called then Hillel or Hillel Community Day School, and that's where I came into the US world of educational leadership. And at the time you grew your family, right? You talked about getting married. You have four children? Baruch Hashem. Baruch Hashem. Eight grandchildren? Baruch Hashem. Okay. >> good. How did you know that? >> Yeah. That wasn't in the email. It wasn't maybe what the guy said. I can't remember. Yeah, I did I did a lot of research. I've been studying for about 3 weeks. >> My wife's answer when they say, "How many grandchildren do you have?" The answer is not enough. Not enough, right. You don't say an actual number, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. May you have many, many more. Amen. Amen. Okay. So, okay, so you're you're you're you're in Atlanta. Mhm. Okay. You get a phone call I guess from Avram Adler at Yachad. Well, there was an email in between, an email that came my way from somebody who knew me and knew that Yachad was looking, sent it to me to say, "This may interest you." And at that stage I was contemplating I wasn't sure where I was going to be holding Atlanta. My contract was coming to an end there, and I hated they're going to renew it or not. Um and I said this is interesting. Yeah. So, uh Why did you say First of all, I I bet for a lot of people listening and watching, they're not sure what what is IVDU? What does it mean that you're head of school? Um does the OU or Yachad really have schools? It's an unbelievable question that I get all the time and I'm so proud of the answer to it because it speaks to the heart of OU. Yeah. So I I don't have to I guess tell you as much but for the listeners perhaps the fact that OU cares for the entire Jewish Orthodox Jewish community that includes individual disability and therefore 40 years ago they invested which was completely unheard of perhaps in those days at such a level to invest in the organization called Yachad as part of the OU menu of things. How do we look after our community? We got to look after those who are most vulnerable and therefore created Yachad about 20 years ago. Yachad said Can I jump in just point out unfortunately we learned the news today of the passing of Rabbi Julius Berman who was president of the OU and helped to launch Yachad. That's unbelievable. I actually happen to be at the OU Yeah. So >> Wow. Wow. So here we are with Rabbi Berman here. He's going to have nachas from all this cuz this is keep build the building blocks and here we are talking about right now where we are today. So about 20 years ago that's where Yachad said we need to provide individual disability. There was a need in the community formal educational process that they can actually get the education that they need, the skills that they need, the career train that they need and so IVDU was created. It started off perhaps as a mom and pop and when Rabbi Adler took over as the head of Yachad he felt that it's time for the school to formalize itself with its first head of school. There never was a head of school. Um and so Hashem put us together and here we are running the schools together under your guidance and leadership. Um and it's amazing. It's amazing how these kids grow, develop, smile every day and people say what I do for living my answer is I walk around and smile. I walk around I was just at the boy's school today and I was at the girl's school yesterday and I go from school to school and it's just amazing to see the angels that Hashem sends to these kids who are the IVDU staff, the OU employees. They're the ones who do the heavy lifting. My job is to facilitate and ensure the quality and everything else but it's those who are working with those kids every single day and every single moment. The care that they give is Hashem knows how much how much that is. It's just unbelievable, beyond words. How many schools are there? There are four Ivdu schools currently. Baruch Hashem, our newest one is in Lakewood. We have our boys, which is perhaps our flagship. It's the oldest of the of the schools and the most students. It's moving to a new building in Beis Hashem in July or this coming year, July 2026. In Brooklyn? In Brooklyn, so that will enable us to expand and grow because every year we turn away 30 to 50 students because we don't have the space for those cohorts. Um last week already have 25 kids on a waiting list for next year and this is just beginning of the year and then we don't have space in any one of the schools. Lakewood now is slowly going to open another cohort per year and then the one once we move the boys in Brooklyn, we'll have more space to also grow a cohort per year to start bringing in additional students. And there's a girls high school? We have girls in middle school and high school that we have in Flatbush as well and then in Five Towns you have an elementary which is a co-ed school. Right. And who goes? Who attends? Who are the participants? Who who who are the students at Ivdu? Who's who's it serving? The students of Ivdu to me is one of the most amazing and beautiful things about OU. OU is here to serve the Jewish community. OU people would assume about OU, perhaps I assumed before I got involved, is it Modern Orthodox? Is it Chareidi? Is it Yeshivish? Is it Misnagdish? Is it Whatever it is, OU is for the Jewish community, for the Jewish people. Uh everybody in our school is shomer Shabbos. I'm going to add the words we assume. In other words, everybody has to put on tefillin, everybody has to come and and participate, but we take every Jewish kid that has a disability that we believe we could help them grow, help them support, they come. So we do represent >> disability? Uh we we focus on a educational, developmental, mild to moderate. We will certainly have a level of IQ they to fit in. Verbal, uh non-significant behavior, behavior as well. So it's not a it's not a physical disability, although some will also demonstrate some physical disabilities, but it's primarily those who are unable to succeed in a mainstream school. Some of them will even try somewhat of a hybrid, like you know, like a resource room we used to call it in a mainstream school or a school within a school. And if that too doesn't serve their needs, that's where they come to school like ours because in our school everybody has a disability. So it allows them to not think in about that part, become less anxious about it. I'll never forget one of the boys in the high school saying to another boy, and I'm just walking by, "What medication are you on today?" And that's something which normalizes it. It's normal for them to say, "I have this, you have that." They talk about the therapists as their friends. "Oh, I just went to the therapist and she said this and that." And okay, and it allows them to think more about what they can do in this world versus I'm different, I'm different, I'm different, I'm different. So many of our kids will walk in, especially at high school age, boys and girls, they'll walk in like hoping nobody sees them cuz they're just they want to shy shy and hide they want to hide. They want to just run away and not be seen. Our parents will say their kids when they come to school either they won't go at all or else they'll go and just make sure they slither in and out nobody sees them. By the time they go through our system, we try and give them a voice. We try and give them confidence. We try and give them an understanding of what their challenges are, but understanding how they could live with that, grow with that, and sometimes despite that or because of that actually achieve amazing things. We have a kid that had a very difficult time in communicating verbally, but is now a graphic designer earning quite a bit of money because he learned that career by us and he realized he didn't have to talk as much and he could just do everything he needs to on the computer. This is a very simple example of of learning what my challenge is, but learning what I could do around that challenge. We have kids right now today I think in Manhattan doing dog grooming. And I'm talking quite a bit. You want to stop me cuz I'm not going to stop talking. What he do is is is is it's on in my DNA, it's in my blood, it's in my passion. I've been blessed for for opportunity to work with these individual Do you have a sense of where the school is going in your mind and a vision for the future? People like to say 3 to 5 years. I actually when I the first year I started, I wrote and it's on my laptop you can show it on my phone. I wrote a 3 to 5 year plan. I wasn't asked to do so by a rabbi, but I did it a rabbi enabled me to work with a lay leader Avraham Stock. I'll be remiss not to mention mention him. Uh he's been my guardian angel in this position uh extremely brilliant person who is extremely dedicated the shame shamayim to assist and support. And he's given me endless hours. We speak literally every single week from when I started so talking almost 6 years now. Uh I just spoke to him this past Friday. Uh he he is so so he made the suggestion why don't you write a 3 to 5 years? You're brand new and let's write it. And we spoke him and I spoke 2 weeks ago about I just opened this document for the first time in 3 year 5 years. And it's so interesting to see some stuff I was right like I wrote we're going to have an assistant principal in each division which we do have. And some stuff I was wrong because we don't have new buildings that I thought we would have by now to allow for growth cuz I knew where where we were stifled in in our spaces. So so certain things I was off on. Certain things I was on. So we're saying to think ahead to the future. I do believe that uh there's a need for a school like If Do in this space. Uh we get calls regularly whether it's from Florida whether it's from Chicago whether it's from LA whether you know from I have spoken people inside in in Australia recently South Africa as well. They Israel when I was there so I so there's a need. There's definitely a need for it, but doesn't the need doesn't mean that If Do has to be the school everywhere. It could be that If Do help support others open schools like ours. If the goal that OU is presenting it's not that we got to do everything for everybody. It's just that we could give the expertise give the knowledge give the experience and support others in their journeys. There's a school that started in Florida that I spoke them 2 years before they started and they still call me every so often to to get ideas and suggestions and that makes me extremely excited because that's a great opportunity for them. In as much as you've spoken a bit about Ivdu, I don't know if it feels almost you've undersold it. Um so for example, uh I've been in uh in in the girls high school in in a STEM lab and it's high-level stuff that's that's going on there. I I I've sat in a classroom with a rebbe giving a high-level Gemara shiur. Th- This is not watered down by any stretch of the imagination. It's real high-quality learning and achieving going on. You You won a a STEM uh you know, tournament competition last year, right? So >> Against mainstream schools. >> Right, exactly. >> that our students had to win that, it's not that their that their invention or their product had to be top class to win, they had to present in front of a crowd. These kids have a disability. Mhm. For them to speak in front of a crowd is a challenge. To articulate their thoughts clearly is a challenge. The amount of work and energy they had to put in, they had to work three times as hard as anybody else to get to where they were. We actually fielded two teams and one of the teams did not succeed, not because of what they put out there wasn't a good invention, but they actually melted down on the stage. They couldn't handle it because they have a disability. So that's even though we coach them and we give them all the support. But what you were saying before is really the vision of what Ivdu is. We don't start off by saying you have a disability, therefore we're going to baby sit you and give you a little bit more along the way. It's the sky's the limit. The sky is the limit. The fact that we take our boys every single year on a marathon, it's an exciting opportunity for our boys to be able to see a challenge and work towards a challenge, whether it's a physical challenge of actually running the marathon or whether it's a challenge of fundraising their own race. So they have to go to people and say, "Hi, are you willing to support my endeavors to do the race?" And they then work in teams and they also work together with their with their coaches. So it's a whole process to fly without their parents. Many of them it's the first time for them to get on a plane, sit on the plane, and behave in a certain way on the plane. It's a whole process that goes into it. But, the point of the mindset of the school was why not? Whatever a mainstream school can do, our boys can do also with the right support, with the right assistance. And we do know that some perhaps 10% may be not go They They may not participate cuz it's not for them that everything is for them. We have a program actually we did here in 40 record 2 years ago. It's called the The Amazing Shake, where we give them opportunities to try and overcome real-life challenges. Uh we did it last year in Samoa. And And one of the challenges were the kids were given a a UPS envelope to mail something. They were sent to a FedEx mailing store. So, they walk in with this envelope and say to the FedEx person, "I'd like to mail this." They said, "This is UPS. What are you going to do with that?" So, they have to figure it out. That's something that perhaps for a a person who is in a in a neurotypical environment would say, "Okay, I'll I'll leave. I'll come back. What are you going to do?" They had to figure it out. And that would be have faith in them they're going to figure it out. Some of them said, "Okay, can I just take it out and put a new envelope?" Some of them said, "I have some money on me. I'm going to And And so on." So, that was We give them real-life opportunities and and we give them real learning as you mentioned in the classrooms. We have kids who who, you know, who who who will take the the Regents. Uh I have on my desktop one of our students this year took math testing, which is a national mainstream school assessment that's done across the US. So, you compare our students against mainstream students across the US. You have a US number and then you have your own school number and so on. So, we have a particular student he's I think 15. He scored in the 99th percentile in every single subject. >> Wow. That's means against So, this kid is brilliant. We have other kids are not like that. We have kids are scoring in the second percentile. But, that's why we have the cohorts. And we make sure that everybody is growing at their pace, at their ability. We give them the opportunities to grow, whether in their own personal self, in their abilities, or academic self, their skills, career readiness. And that's what we did. Amazing. Shifting a little bit, we asked we ask everyone about their hobbies. You You said yours is to learn. Learning. Yeah. What do you learn? I will learn anything. I do have my seder in what I learn. So, I learn the game with my son every single day by phone. Okay. Which was an amazing challenge. We started literally in 2020 just before COVID. >> he? He's right now between Florida and Atlanta. His business that he runs in Atlanta, but he likes to live in Florida, so he flies up and down there. Okay. Yeah, so he's a the Torah you say the Torah anchors you. Yeah. For him that he's working as a working young man, the Torah anchors him. He'll call me in the nachos I could get them. And all my other children you say they all give me nachos, but he gives certain nachos of giving you a call say, "What time are we learning tonight?" You know, that's that's great daily learning, which is amazing. Uh but I'll have other daily schedules of learning. But on top of that, people love to ask me questions, shylas, whatever it is, and I like to research them and find answers, speak to our rabbonim, and so on. So, it's not it will if a topic of Torah comes up and it attracts me, I'll look into it further. Do you have a favorite safer? Uh I'm going to say no. Uh I have a few favorite sforim. I would put I guess the Rambam and Tanya together. I love Tanya. Rambam, anything in particular from Rambam? Like the Moreh or the >> 1984 with the Rebbe came out of learning the Rambam Yomi. I've done it now close to 50 times now since I started 1984. That's less than a year, so we're like 46 time, whatever. So, I I do relatively know the Rambam well. I feel very close to the Rambam cuz I've learned the safer so many times. Um Amazing. And and Tanya, I find that Tanya is is is an anchor safer for me that when I read it it gives perspective. Um and you like to delve into other areas of pnimius haTorah also, or that's your that's your >> I will scatter everywhere. Most will say my favorite is halacha. I did Dayanous. That was the last thing that I talked about my academic growth. That was the last thing that I did just before I moved to Atlanta. I did it I did Dayanous. I became a judge. And that's because I did it for a hobby. I wasn't planning to sit on a base dinner and I haven't sat on a base dinner per se. It's not what I my dream to do. But I wanted to learn. I wanted to know and I wanted to know what there is out there and advise people when they call me sometimes, "What do you think about this that?" I I can say, "Well, based on what I learned, here's some information." When you think curricularly, do you think more Rambam? Do you think more Tanya? I put them both together. I think I think there's Halacha. Halacha will definitely be the Rambam and then the Shulchan Aruch and so on and so forth. Shulchan is a is a grounding safer. When I did Dayanous, I was one of the most fundamental safer I used. When it comes to Pnimius HaKitzis, Tanya is the grounding and from there I'll branch out anything else. Okay, let's do a couple of rapid-fire questions. Okay. Milchigs or fleishigs? Whatever my wife wants, that's what I'll have. Very political answer. >> It's the truth. It's the truth. Okay. What's the coolest place you've ever traveled to? Victoria Falls in Zambia. Just before we left South Africa, my wife and I we we were given a gift to go on a vacation there and that's something you stand and you just see the wonders of Hashem. And it's it's beyond. You can't even describe it. Awesome. David Brooks in his most recent offering says that there are certain 30,000 foot questions that we all face. So we're going to jump jump into one of those right now. What do you think is the biggest or most important or most impactful lesson you've learned since you came to the OU? I've been humbled. Humbled by realizing how little I know. How little I know about the population I'm working with on our national division of disabilities. How little I knew about OU. And how little I knew about the individuals that I'm working with. It says it opened my eyes. I'm working with some people that have no degrees at all who are working in the non-ed part of Ahav Dus and some of them are brilliant. And the fact that they don't have a piece of paper that says they're brilliant, but they are brilliant and we're lucky to have them. It's a humbling experience. You almost say, "Okay, you know, why would I interview for a position?" You don't but then you say, "Wow, this person blows me away." So, in other words, I I I've been humbled a lot uh to realize that there's so much to learn, so much to appreciate, and so much I don't know and um and I'm blessed to be part of all of it. I feel that part of this whole thing. And now people's favorite opportunity. Turn the tables. You get to ask me a question. I guess I would ask you, what keeps you up at night? What keeps me up at night is tzarchei amcha merubim. There are a lot and lot of needs. How do we decide we're going to spend this dollar and not that dollar? Yeah. We took in money in revenue, fundraising, or otherwise. This program is behind, so maybe we have to cut. Cut? What do you mean? Fewer participants. This program is ahead, so we're going to grow. Do we have to grow? Well, there's more needs over there, but over here we have to cut. So, that the notion of what we choose and how we choose yes to this Wow. no to that stopping this, starting that those are those are very very um difficult difficult issues and questions and you know, we we we have to do our hishtadlus. Yeah. Uh and do make our efforts. And we also have to have bitachon. But Hashem will guide. We also have to trust and rely on God. Yeah. And knowing where that line is between how much we have to do our efforts and how much we have to and when and what point we trust in God is very very important. Joseph the Tzaddik, right? He says to the to the Sar Hamashkim, the Sar Ha'ofim, "Remember me." Yeah, and that was Right? And God said, "Oh, well, what about me? You You didn't ask me." Yeah. So, how much do we have to do and try? And when do we turn? And so, those those are the kinds of things that are Well, I think almost humanly impossible, and that's why we have to turn to God. Yeah. It's a lot of slacha making these choices because the result of these choices impacts thousands and thousands of people that are you impacting also. Amazing. What's your favorite thank you Hashem moment in your life? I would start with right now. That's That's the In other words, it's modeh ani I say every single morning, and I mean it when you say it. Uh There's a whole discussion whether we should be uh uh saying a full Elokainu shamah just the modeh ani, which is a short version of it. And and And there's an opinion in the Gemara that says maybe we should say vidui every day, that we should be able to say, "You know what? This was my day, and I'm going to do the best I can with this day." Alaluf says the derech levonim should always have white white clothing cuz you never know. Very morbid thoughts, but on the positive side, it's modeh ani. I'm thankful for the day. I'm thankful for the moment. I'm thankful right now. Yes, but I'm I'm thankful for this job that I do, to be honest. Okay. So, I'm going to ask you a different uh big question then cuz you answered that brilliantly, but um what's one bucket list item that you would love to accomplish in the next 60 plus years? It's a complicated thought because my bucket list item would be to sit and learn Torah 24 hours a day. But then Hashem would have kept my neshama up in Gan Eden and say, "Sit and learn Torah the whole day." So, Hashem put us down in this world with shesham ta'aseh melachtecha. Six days a week you got to work. And therefore, to find time for daf yomi and to really try and work in it, even just to work in that little bit, to go back to your yeshiva hours for a half hour and really put your brain to figure it out it is is an unbelievable to be able to do that. So so you know my bucket list would be to sit and learn 24 hours a day. It's a good one. But I'm waiting for Messiah and that will happen any moment and we'll do it then. I thought that was going to be your bucket list. My bucket list item is bring Messiah. Yeah, so that's so that will Do it together. Do it together. So the way we like to end is we ask our guests to give a bracha to the OU. My bracha to the OU should be mechayil el chayil uh from strength to strength. My bracha to the OU is that it keep on letting the world know the amazing blessings that it has and is giving and providing. The fact that I did not know what OU does for all these years until I joined is something to me like what was wrong with you? Why didn't you know that? But now that I'm involved with the OU, I don't stop talking about the OU. So where I live right now, everybody knows that I work for the OU and the Jewish Action Magazine goes out to everybody who's willing to look at it because at the end of the day there's so many amazing things happening here and the bracha should be just continue. Amen. Shifa and we should uh return that bracha right back to you that >> Amen. all of your uh all of the tova, everything that you're you're desiring for good for Ivdou, for your family and beyond should be uh paid to you and in in ways that you deserve and that you don't deserve be shifa. Amen. Um that that we should have abundance and see Ivdou continue to grow and grow and grow. Amen. Thank you. Thank you.