Rejuvenation: Are the National Religious too Naïve?

[Music] hi everybody this is Eve Harrow on rejuvenation for the land of Israel this show is being pre-taped on May 10th 2019 hey BER 57 79 after a very interesting as usual week in Israel very difficult time at the beginning of the week with things that are of course happening in Gaza and then we have the we have Yamazaki horn we had Memorial Day which is wrenching and emotional for everybody in the country and then moving right into Independence Day which is also wrenching and emotional for everybody in the country and so just a very pendulum wide swinging and up-and-down roller coaster week but I have on the line and I'm entry and I would like to speak today to rabbi hyman of Vaughn who is a columnist for my favorite newspaper unfortunately for you guys only published in Hebrew maybe one day that'll change also an educator at yeshiva pirates John and me dress at Linden BAM and the author of 12 books one of which is was translated into English Genesis and Jewish thought a few years ago so thank you so much rather rough time for joining us today on the Land of Israel Network it's just a few hours before Shabbat but I really wanted to take the opportunity to to have you share some thoughts with my listeners thank you for the invitation okay okay so one of your columns and you're really that the columns in my coalition are pretty much the first or second thing that I that I turn to and I open up the newspaper very very thought-provoking and one of them I believe the last one you spoke about why the will we call the school game or what we call the national religious sector in Israeli society those of us who really are trying to combine both the traditions and the metes votes and and the religious world but with very deep involvement in Israeli society the Army National Service you know whatever that is why why we are not success as successful politically as people expect us to be so can you I talked to my listeners a little bit about where your thinking went on this because I thought you had some very interesting points to make well first there is a myth in Israel that the religious Zionist community is very extremely influential in Israel about the policy of the government etc and actually I think it's not true I think the religious Zionist community the dirty Lumi community is extremely unsuccessful politically speaking and not very influential I think the major you know major case for examining is the disengagement from Gaza Strip mm-hmm 10,000 settlers were evacuated from the area from their homes 10,000 most of them were religious Zionist I think no other community in Israel would find itself in such a situation with no effective political resistance to this to this move to this you know destructive movement and that's what you said in your column that if it was the ultra-orthodox or you know it was a group of ultra-orthodox living there they would still be in Gush Katif which I thought was a fascinating comment because um you know it's but it wasn't about the cherone government that it wasn't about you know tremendous political pressure or terrorism or the fact that a lot of Israelis felt that the investment in the army and the things that we were doing in Gaza you know we had to leave of course in retrospect everybody or most people given what's going on now in the South realized that it possibly was one of the stupidest things that Israel did but to say that you that you think that the lack of power the lack of influence of the people living there or of their political representatives is one of the reasons that that they were that they went out it is absolutely fascinating to me I think it's a very simple fact you know you'll appear today is very major politician in his well in those days he was still you know writing in the newspaper yeah and was a journalist and he wrote honestly after the disengagement we know it won't help us him you know in to to bring peace it won't help us to bring quiet but it was worth it just to show you this settler the religious settlers to show you that you know you do not rule the world just to I don't know you have some some vengeance on this in this community I think it's it was horrible but yeah it was wrong to the the BDS to the boycott movement that it's not so much about helping the Arabs but it's about hurting Israel and hurting the Jews yeah and in Israel if we speak about the disengagement if the police tries to evacuate a Bedouin family which built a house on government land it's just to evacuate one family demands you know like a hundred policemen and it's very simple move and we were in the disengagement 10,000 settlers were taken out of their homes and you know the government did it so I think the the religious Zionist community is extremely weak politically speaking we don't want to be violent I mean part of the reason that the Bedouins aren't gonna move is because everybody knows that if they go in their blood will be spilled and that was one of the very good part of the story I think the settlers of a Gaza Strip were actually heroes heroes because they were not violent and they're not very appreciated they should be appreciated I don't know any other population who would react in such a mature way you know in order to avoid citizens warring Israel they actually let the government evacuate him but part of the story is the lack of political strength for the religious Zionist community I think it was also very bold and uh we were blind to this fact because of the day short reign a short time success of Benetton shaked and in the political system of Israel but actually it was a it was the unusual and it was very unusual and and right now we see that the religious Zionist political party is very weak very small a lot of religious Zionist voted for a parties they didn't get any representative Indyk nesset and I think we should ask why we don't see such a phenomena in other communities they have a deem knows very well how to manage in the political arena the left wings in Israel they EA they try to to get together in a in big parties to make to be rivals to Netanyahu just the feeling my community lost aim people speak about something like a hundred thousand votes and that will last two parties that don't have any representative in the Knesset you know in America maybe it sounds like a minor a number of votes but in Israel it's huge well part of and you mentioned it in your column as well what what some people will say is the very fact that we are integrated into Israeli society that we were not homogeneous we don't vote as a sector you'll find the straw game as we say the man right wearing the kipapa the women also identified with this national religious lifestyle in all sectors of Israel Society and we don't vote as sectarians for necessarily a national religious party that you will find that our sector and the left on the right voting for the Likud and therefore we don't have that power at that sectoral powder power because we're everywhere and and I think maybe part of what also what happens in Gush Katif is the fact that the army is such a big value for for many of us and defending the state something that Larry Larry deem don't do but as a result when the expulsion happened and it was the army and it was soldiers that were sent to take people out of their homes there were no where there was no way that the people living there we're gonna fight against the army and these are our own children and this is this is a well as you say in your column perhaps we've put some level of holiness if kedusha into a realm where it doesn't belong at the political realm and even the army are not holy things they're it's about power and it's about influence and we have perhaps we perhaps care too much about the institutions of the government and that becomes our undoing you mentioned two claims first you said that maybe religious then is men and women on day vote for all kinds of parties not just for dear sectorial party and of course you are right but normally I would expect armed representative of the Likud Party let's player yet taking care of the interest of the religious Zionist community they have a lot of religious Zionist voters in even happened in the disengagement um we still don't see our religious Zionist power within the Likud the other parties don't have so many religious Zionist voters some of the left-wing parties in Israel have more religious and its representatives than religious honest voters mm-hmm but um we don't see any our religious Zionist power within the liquid with specific religious honest ideas or interests so we're not here and we know there are a specific party is very weak maybe because we also vote for other parties but we don't see any organized lobby groups within the liquid or any other party about you second claim I also agree I think it's part of this problem that we do not think about the political arena very in a very rational way and it's because it's because we could mire the State of Israel and you know it deserves our admiration maybe we we confuse the sanctity we we think of within the people of Israel sometimes we think the same way about the State of Israel which is not holy as the people of Israel each state and we aim with we tend to to face the government of Israel with the same holiness we think about the State of Israel and this is a second mistake mistake because the government especially is not holy and we expect our representatives to represent not only our interests and not only our ideology but to represent the perfection state we we expect from the State of Israel we we actually aim hope that our representatives are members of the Knesset would be perfect and if they are not perfect and you know we both know that no one is perfect especially not politicians when they are not perfect we are very disappointed the are our expectations from the political system are not realistic we hope for too much so we get too little we don't know we didn't figure it out how to actually get a power and actually influence the political system so look we have precedents for this in our history I think about let's say the hush Mona em who were Kohanim they were priests and they were supposed to just do their holy job work in the temple but then they become they also take on the kingship and according of you know to the Casal according to the rabbi's this is where they go down because they are mixing the two things and and Torah talks about the fact that there should be a separation between holy work that's done and the let's call the political leadership at the time it's a monarchy now it's democracy we shouldn't expect that if the message is very clear that we haven't been able maybe to move forward into the 21st century or were in the time of the Omer right now where we talk about Rabbi Akiva and Bar Kokhba and the revolt in the second century against Hadrian and the Romans were also there's a may perhaps a confusion about religious leadership versus military leadership so you as a rabbi as an educator do you see that we maybe maybe there are messages here in our past history that we're not applying correctly to today this is a very interesting juxtaposition you know we just mentioned the Cushman name yes a day they were a priest and they were kings and it's a not a very good mixer and I think you are right and I think we should learn not only from the Jewish history we should learn also from American political wisdom because in America religious people are afraid of the government they hope the government would not interfere and not intervene in their religious life and in Israel religious people especially religious Zionist they are and they are admirers of the government not the government of government you know in a general way they hope the government will love religious stuff they hope the government will they finance their religious schools and the government will finance religious synagogues and I think aim here is the Americans have something very important to teach us the Israelis Israel is not America now Israel is a nation state America not so much not in the same way Israel is a very specific nation with a very specific history and very specific memories of the Jewish people and the Jewish tradition but we can learn something from America and from American conservatives especially religious conservatives we should learn that government doesn't know how manage religious ideas and religious issues and actually I'm not in favor of separation of church and state I don't notice okay well I don't think this slogan is relevant to Israel you know when the flag of the State of Israel is actually Tully's no Jewish religious symbol how can you actually make your a wall of separation but I think we should know that the government if a very limited influence and a very limited positive influence on spiritual issues and we should not expect from the government to achieve all our religious dreams government needs to do what it you know what it knows to do it it knows how to build a erodes some roads and and the government managed a pulley system and the jail's and army and some other very crucial stuff but the government arm is not the before a the full reality realization of all our a of all our dreams and if we have lower expectations from the government and from the political system I think we the religious Zionist community would achieve more from this system we just hope for too much and we get too little well look there's a practical element that we do need political power for as they say in cameroon TOA you know if we want to have let's say the religious institutions they you teach at so a lot of them get budgets get a certain stipend from the government and something that you mentioned in that column for example is that the ultra-orthodox know how to do this very well they have a lot of numbers now in the Knesset and there's mainly two things that they want they want to not have to serve in the army they want enough political power so that they can be key and get that and they also want funding for their Torah institutions so if we want that as well which of course we do we still have to somehow have that political power in order to be able to get the budgets for our for our own institutions i hear i do not agree with the javed in our Orthodox I think most of religious Zionist in Israel want more political power and more political influence not imported to get more government budgets they don't think this way arm we would like to have more influence in order to actually change things that we don't like in in the state what I yell educate the Secretary of Justice just did in the last four years was extremely successful actually a change in you know she she initiated a change in Israel justice system order it would be more conservative more national and I think most of religious till you mean Israel admire this success this is the kind of things we want to actually influence with on one just to get mind for our sect Oriole institutions mm-hmm yet she herself isn't she didn't grow up as you said in bnei akiva me she herself while she's a part of the religious I in this world she was a part of the party she herself that's not the lifestyle that she leads which is fascinating and I think I'm afraid to say that it might be one of the terms for her success because she had a more healthy approach to word politics she was not expecting it you know to be the arm realization of all her dreams and she was very reactive and she a joined forces with with some people some of them nice and some of them are not so nice in order to achieve more influence and she was extremely successful and no religious Zionist political leader ever got it I know not in the last 50 years mmm-hmm maybe there was less animosity towards her from other people also because of that you know I think what happened yesterday or we didn't have God she got her share in hatred responses you know it's not at the Liberals there left her alone no no but I think it was because of her politics and not because of the way you know what she does on Shabbat or what she puts in your plate but you know you know I think for my listeners there's something interesting that happens on an Independence Day in Israel there's a there's a blessing that we say the Hallel which is a beautiful prayer that we say on our festivals and when you know when miracles have happened to us and that it was applied by the national religious world to Independence Day to the fact that we won the war of independence it is cast as a miracle and therefore deserving of having this special prayer sent and sometimes if you want to and here I'm speaking to my listeners if you want to figure out where somebody sits in terms of their view of the modern-day State of Israel one of the questions to ask is do you say Hallel do you say this prayer on Independence Day and on Jerusalem Day which of course is the commemoration of the victory of the six-day war and that's coming up and do you say it with the blessing you know so cuz some people say it but don't say with the blessing so perhaps we have fed into this idea of holiness of the modern day state when it comes to this particular Hallel prayer yeah we we actually first you are you're right it's a very crucial sign of religious Zionist world of you once I was in London and uh Haredi Russia Shiva came to collect money for his institution and you can you know you could see just looking at his clothes that is extremely ultra-orthodox and the rabbi of the show who was religious Zionist said please give money to this man he followed me they are Zionists and they say Hallel only and the Independence Day and Israel's independence day and a look at that person I know I could swear he didn't do it didn't say Hallel if you're mad mode in Israel it's very very clear and now I think this is a huge challenge to the religious and spiritual leadership worship but we could shape and you scientist world of world view that can evaluate the spiritual value of Israel a worldview that can say we believe in the State of Israel we we share it's spiritual value but it's only a state you know it's not all our dreams it's not all our hope it's not our God in a state in one very important stage for the people of Israel for religious views but we right now we lack the terms we will lock the terms of dealing with Israel as a complicated reality which it is it is is related people national state and it is a very patriotic state and it is in some way traditional state but in some ways not it some days it's a very progressive state in some ways it's very secular state it's complicated we still like the exact terms to interpret this reality mm-hmm so if you were a political adviser let's say and you could give advice to this sector so how would you say that we could go about moving forward in order to have more influence in this country luckily I'm not a political I think this you know these four years until next election in Israel it might be less right will will be a great challenge and a test and I I want to see whether our politicians religious Zionist politician it can use wisely their political strength in in order to achieve realistic goals and not just dreams and not not approaching political arena like it's a shul it's not a sure it's not a synagogue nice it's something else and I'm really curious and and hopeful to see whether they they learn some lessons you know you you mentioned that we have what to learn from the American political system and I would say by inference other Western democracies but we are in the Middle East and and sometimes I wonder if that's why we shy away to some degree from power a I think that 2,000 years of of a lot of powerlessness hasn't yet been taken out of us we we we don't know what to do with power weren't comfortable with power and and therefore perhaps we don't use it wisely but when we look around in the Middle East at our immediate neighbors we see power being used in awful ways and perhaps we move away from it too much because we think if you use your power then you'll become like some of our neighbors who are just awful people and and do things against their own people did you have any thoughts about that because you know being here in the Middle East we are not in Canada we are not in Europe we are surrounded by some of the worst people on the planet do you think that affects us in how we see this state as the only democracy in the Middle East but somehow there's a little this little voice in our heads that says be careful and perhaps we're too careful I think these are very wise comments I would just add more more a comment one comment which is the Jewish people for 2,000 years lacked political power mm-hmm but we did have one political minor political organization which is the Jewish Jewish community which is actually wonder all around the world Jews got together in arranged their communities with no external power but with a lot of internal power and aim I wonder why we the Israelis do not pay any attention to the political tradition of Jewish communities you know it's almost no research no historical research about this community maybe I'm exaggerating but not enough not enough because this is the one example of Jewish political organization we actually had for the last 2,000 years and who pays attention to how Jews actually worked out their communities I might add that people here in Israel think that we learned about democracy from western states like Sweden and the United States but almost none of the Jews who were here in 1980 1948 when when actually the State of Israel I was born almost none of them was born in a western state rights Israeli democracy the origin of the Israeli democracy was the tradition of the Jewish community why are we blind to this to this arm extremely important tradition mm-hmm and there's your next book actually the X elite might be no be well look on the other hand the Jewish communities in the Diaspora for all those years didn't have to make the decisions that a political entity has to make let's say when do you go to war when do you not you know that we had to survive as Jewish communities make sure that within the communities people had whatever was we needed and also to protect ourselves but when you when you're playing at the table right when you're sitting with the big boys it becomes a totally different decision-making capabilities and we have to learn how to do that that's true that's true and and when we talk about these kind of decisions we are actually pupils of the western part we can just comfort with the knowledge that West Western thought was the child of the ancient biblical thought so we just you know in length because we actually have as I mentioned earlier we actually have a lot we can learn from American political tradition which is extremely successful tradition today I see in America some you know lack of confidence yeah yeah actually actually it's a great system you know comparatively speaking what are the alternatives look right and look left see the alternatives and America is going on I think generally very well so we have a lot to learn from the West um and and just remember that a lot of a lot of the good things that were developed in the Western world are actually from ancient Jewish urging biblical origin we can see it in the United States you know in the symbols in the memories and in the writings of the founding fathers of the United States so maybe we actually have the answers within our own tradition we need but we need help you you're right you're right because we we have the seeds in our own tradition mmm ah they flourished and grew and developed in in other soil and we can watch and learn and and see you know how other nations got along with a with their political systems well what would you see as the ideal kind of ruler a benevolent monarch you see democracy as being the best way of running things to paraphrase Winston Churchill except for any other words the word Julian it didn't say the worst yes yeah I think I think it's a very biblical a phrase that that this is what I see in the Bible I say that the Bible arm it does not like very much any government but you know you cannot live without a ruler right so let it be as weak as you can and I think it's a very logical way to describe democracy mm-hmm I think that's what that's what Churchill actually thought about and he was it was very much into the Bible you know he knew a lot about the Bible and about the ancient religious tradition mm-hmm mm-hmm all right so it sounds like the Bible is somewhat of a libertarian kind of document maybe Arian it's not libertarian because the Bible does not care that much about personal liberty it cares about communal liberty about the freedom to every tribe in every community to practice its own traditions and so it's not libertarian mm-hmm but buried actually I I read the Bible the Bible afraid our farm is afraid of too strong a ruler and and I think democracy is a great kind of government and you know we can argue about it all night man they know the bottom line is democracy works this might be the most important crucial conclusion mm-hmm okay well thank you so much for for your insights and we'll see if the religious Zionist community can use these next few years perhaps to regroup because looks like we're not going to be in positions of influence and do some soul-searching literally and see where we go from here rabbi hyman of own educator columnist for McCrory Sean and author thank you so much for joining me today on the Land of Israel Network Thank You Shabbat you know step by tell them and everyone I want to thank as usual then and Tabitha and everyone else at the network and you can always write to me Eve at the Land of Israel dot-com and if you're going to be in Israel I'm chef luck you just might get to see me I'm going to be a part of the Land of Israel weekend that we have at the Mount Zion hotel the chef award of a lifetime with some of my other co-hosts and it should be a really great weekend so please look into that okay Eve Harrow rejuvenation on the Land of Israel Network take care of me Betty goodbye for now over 700 rockets fired at Israel over the last several days listen to my latest show with Marc provider director of security for the one is real fun who is down in southern Israel in light of this latest escalation by Hamas and the other terrorist exams of what they need now 30 chief security directors the medics I want to keep you guys safe because they are the bravest people in Israel don't miss the show Josh hastin Israel uncensored only here