Is the Christian Embrace of Jewish Roots a Blessing… or a Threat | Land of Israel Network

Hi, this is Adamio Burkowitz. Uh, I'm here with dear friends, and I think that's an understatement, uh, Rav Armoritz and John Anderson. Um, and we're here to discuss their my editorial that I wrote two weeks ago and their responses to it. I wrote an editorial titled, "Is Christian Zionism an existential threat destroying Jews and the nation of Israel?" And I wrote that editorial out of concerns I had for two phenomena that I've been observing um as the reporter for Israel 365 News. One of them is an increasing move within Christian Zionists towards Torah and Jewish practices. Um, for example, Christians taking on um the Passover Seder, uh, Christians doing Hanukkah, Christians doing Shabbat, which I of course believe is a blessed uh, appearance. Um, but I've noticed that when Christians do that, they're very careful to reject what they call rabbitic Judaism. >> And they also reject um, the oral law, the Talmud, um, what what Jews call haka uh, and the rabbitic process. And it leads to them doing the uh doing the mitzvot um in a in [snorts] a car characteristically non-Jewish manner. They also have been acquiring Hebrew terms to refer to things that they believe theologically that are not um the same as what Jews use those same terms for. for example, Ruakodesesh is not the same as what Christians mean when they say the Holy Spirit. Um, and they've even um been taking on terms like YHWH, which is uh supposed to be like the the unutterable name of God, which Jews avoid even hinting at. Um, so that's the first phenomenon that I've noticed and uh I see pro that's problematic for me. And there is another phenomenon of of Christians referring to themselves as Ephraim, meaning that they are the embodiment of uh the lost tribes of Israel and they say we have returned and um they use terms such as grafting referring to the prophecies. Uh however, they say yes, we are really a fine. We are the physical manifestation of the tribe of Israel. Um, and I see a lot of problems with that. And as we come closer to gula, to the redemption, one of the major problems that's going to happen is will they enter the temple because only Israel is allowed to enter into the temple. Rava Brahmovitz wrote an amazing um response to that and I'd really like to hear it now. Thank you. Thank you. So, uh, you wrote a fantastic piece and when I read it, it was not, uh, I did not reject it as unfounded. As a matter of fact, I think the reason I was so moved to write a response is because I identified with it so strongly. The majority of my life, I would say I held exactly that position and that posture. Maybe not the majority, but at least when I grew up in America, growing up in Texas, I very much had what I would define in retrospect as a defensive or reactive posture towards Christianity and proitism and things like that. And then when I came to Israel and then I lived in Jerusalem and then I went to Judea and was able to I merited to help bring the arrogat farm to life and take the desert and blossom and be a a conduit through which God was fulfilling the prophecies. One of those prophecies is that when we return to the land, he will take from us a heart of stone and put within us a heart of flesh that we'll have a circumcision of the heart. And my that journey for me of what I feel like that experience is the slowly opening of my heart is that things are changing like we're uh we live on in it's called the Arugot farm. Why did we call it that? Also because of King David it's on the Arugot Valley but King David in the book of Psalms he says as a deer is yearning or thirsting for water. We're thirsting for you Hashem. Right? And it's a place of thirsting. King David says in Psalms, I'm happy as the heart who is seeking God. Not the one who has found God, but who is seeking God. And so when I meet Christians now, and I'm not in a defensive, reactive posture, but a posture that is only the consequence of a God-given gift that is the result, I believe, of a Jew living in Judea. is that no longer do I feel threatened, but I feel love and I feel uh I don't feel hatred, but a desire to bless. And so that blessing really needs to come from a place and does come from a place of humility and recognition that when I look at the way I understood God 10 years ago, I see half of that was wrong. That I hope and pray that 10 years from now, half of the way I understand God right now will be wrong. None of us can ever fully understand God. And just as we, the nation of Israel, are on a journey to awakening from our national coma of 2,000 years of being victim exile Jews to being sovereign Jews in our land with a holistic integrated understanding of who we are and what our mission is in the world, which is not to be insular and to hoard the Torah to ourselves, but rather to be uh the vehicle to to actually fulfill the mission that the Torah gives us to be a kanim. Vgoy kadosh, a a nation of priests and a holy uh a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. And so does that mean we're better than the nations of the world? Totally not. No more than a cohane descendant of Aaron that blesses me every morning in synagogue. And in the temple itself would do the temple service and bless the other tribes. We're a nation of priests. And so just as the Cohen's job is to bless us, it is our job to bless the nations of the world. And that blessing is [snorts] fundamentally a different posture than judgment. We're here just to show love and compassion and guidance. And those who have hearts that are seeking are coming to us and asking for guidance and we're happy to give it. And those who are maybe earlier on their journey and more rigid and more sure of their way. Okay. Then that's where they're on their journey and we're here for them when they should so desire. I have much more to say, but let's we could get into it more >> and I have much more that I want to hear from you. Huh. >> Yes. So, but I would love to hear from my friend John. >> Well, thank you. Um, it was it was really great to read both of your editorials and your articles and I just felt as a Christian to kind of clarify some of the Christian position and about the Christian world. And I think it's important to know that Christianity is by far the world's largest faith. It's 2.3 billion adherence. Um I would say it's really hard to know, but probably roughly half of them are generally pro-Israeli support that the Jewish people have been given the land of Israel. Um about you could say 600 million or so are evangelical. Also they are probably half split on this issue. Um the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox which are not the evangelicals generally they have a theology of the Bible while there's many wonderful believers there. Their theology of the Bible from my perspective is just doesn't cut the mustard like Bible is kind of a little secondary. So anyway, of this whole 2.3 billion Christians, maybe there's half a million that are kind of involved in this process of drawing towards Torah, of drawing towards it's very hard to know because this is a recent phenomenon in a way, but of being so drawn to uh their Jewish roots and the Torah. So maybe let's let's say 500,000. And of those, there is really a segment of those that believe that they are the 10 lost tribes, that they're physically descended from Israel and claim that identity. So that's quite a small minority. Um that's important to clarify. And then I would like to say from my position, I'm a postsupersessionist Christian. It means somebody that's rejected replacement theology in the school of a theologian like um Dr. Gerald McDermott, which is fairly well known to some of the guys here at Israel 365. What that means is that I believe Jews all over the world should remain faithful to the covenant of Torah in a traditional manner and I support all the majors of Jewish practice as a Christian. As a gentile Christian, I don't believe I am beholden to the same number of mitzvot. But to enrich my faith, I choose to celebrate a number of festivals, Passover, um, commandments, a bit of kosher, uh, liturgy. Um, similar to like the gerto shave perhaps in Jewish thought. Um, but it like I don't feel I feel that should be done in a respectful manner towards the Jewish people and Jewish tradition. And I don't agree with this small minority in the Hebrew roots movement that wants to say the divine name that wants to wear its seat seat uh that wants to appropriate really Jewish mitzvot in a pretty disrespectful manner. I don't think as a gentile Christian you should be uh engaging in some of those mitzvot to that level. Um and I would disagree generally that the majority of those people claiming to be 10 tribes to be lost tribes of Israel that that's actually true. There's been in Christianity for a number of at least a couple centuries strong movements to claim this. I believe that the black Hebrew Israelites claim this for example. Um, I believe that even the Mormons actually believe that they are lost tribes. Um, and I think that that theology is a dime a dozen. To me, it comes down to you got to the struggle in our mission from God is accepting who God created you to be and to fulfill that mission that he gave you. So, I see that a lot of these people that this minority, a large part of them like to connect with you on social media. [laughter] And I think that's what riles things up. Um so >> so I have a question for you and this is a practical question. Um when we're talking about this, you said that they should approach uh doing mitzvot in a respectful manner. >> Um one of the issues I have with respect is we have a certain way of doing mitzvah mitzvot and with a few tiny really minor variations. the Jews, Farardi, Ashkanazi, Kabadic, and Magd, we all we all are pretty much pretty close. Would you how would I approach teaching mitzvot? This has gotten me I finally decided yes I'll teach if how do I approach teaching mitzvot to Christians in a way that will open them up to the oral law the Talmud the >> problem is it's so large and so spread such a such a scattered movement there is no one voice that speaks for Christianity in that way and I would say we are doing me as a Christian I'm doing the best I can to police that on our side of the aisle but the only way forward I can is I sympathize with you, but the only way forward I can see is what Rabbi Abramovit's position. >> So, I'd like to comment on that because you said a few things that sort of need to be I think dissected and looked into. You said policing. >> We're not This is not an era of policing. We're not I think that a big part of the reactionary uh reality of in America towards Jews and a lot of things is from over policing and over censoring. let anyone say whatever they want to say and however they want to say it. That's the thing when I teach. You said how what's the best way to teach to give them more of an affinity towards I don't think I try to teach without any outcomes. Meaning my my mission is to share the beauty and the depth of the Torah that lights up my own soul and to share that and let the cards fall where they may. Some people may convert to Judaism. That's not my goal. We're not an evangelistic proitizing. As a matter of fact, when they come to me to do that, I tell them maybe you should think twice. Not a great idea, you know. And if they keep pushing and keep pushing like Ruth to Naomi, that's the sort of uh the idea there. But we're not here to we have to stop trying to engineer things because when we try to engineer things, it's taking that away from Hashem. And God knows what he's doing and how he's doing it. And there's a process that's happening here. It's not where we are on the ladder. It's how many notches we've climbed. Like for example, an atheist. I used to grow up an atheist. The worst the worst. But but is it are they maybe an atheist would actually reach the highest rungs of heaven. Why? I remember the story about Rabbi Schlom Carlbach. Someone was sitting at a Shabbat table and they said, "You know, Rabbi, I don't believe in God." And he said, "My friend, my brother, the God you don't believe in, I don't believe in either." Right? And so if you think about maybe a child sacrificing pagan that says you know what if this is God then I don't believe in God well on the latter from falsehood to truth they have just taken a huge leap towards truth. So if they die at that moment as an atheist well they've just gone from a child sacrificing pagan religious pagan to someone that rejects all of that. That rejection is a huge step towards truth. And so a lot of these Christians that are on their journey and it's somehow a little bit messy, a little bit confused, disorienting, especially for them. I have tremendous respect for them. It's hard to reject generations of a certain paradigm and open your heart and your mind to another. There's going to be things there that happen like they're tying seed seed to their belt loops. When I see that, I'm not threatened by that. I'm I have affection for it. I'm like, "Wow, that's where they're at right now." And and think about where they've come from and they're they're in a struggle. There's something very Israel about that. Israel is to struggle with God. They're struggling. Okay? So, they're in their struggle and God knows I'm in my struggle, too. I've had loads of struggles. I'm immersed in many struggles at this moment. So, that's the again for me, I think I have a um a utility or a gift that I'm a relatively simple Jew. I'm just like a chicken farmer in Judea. I'm not some sort of scholar or theologian. So, it helps me see see things from a little bit more of a simple perspective. And so, this whole conversation, while I love having it, and well, when I hear your testimony, I'm humbled by it, I just I'm honored to be sitting next to you, to hear someone that is on such an advanced place in their journey and such nuances and, you know, you feel like Jew should be this and you should be that. By the way, I think he's a testimony to what my point is that I'm trying to make where the oral Torah is not really meant for Christians to keep the deep nuances of it all. It was really given to the nation of Israel. Just like there's special laws of the priests and the temple that were given to the priests, we have an entire corpus of the laws of the Torah that are really applicable to us. But for him to be keeping the spirit of it on the deepest most visceral level and not maybe not all the nuances, but that is beauty to me. That is a taste of redemption. That is what we're trying to go for. Not that they become Jews or need to keep all of the the nuances of things. But what do I know? >> So this is where I disagree with you. You called yourself a simple chicken farmer in Judea. Maybe I should become a simple chicken farmer in Judea. I'm in awe of you because when I when I and and there are people who request that I teach them um Christians and I'm terrified. I am absolutely terrified. Um let's let's say I teach someone to read Hebrew and next thing I know they start trying to say the name of Hashem. There was a woman she started I mean because of the internet people have they can find everything in translation. So this woman told me oh if you look at the Rashashana prayer book Jews are praying to Yeshua. And I'm like, "No, we're praying for Yeshua. There's a difference." And she just >> Explain what you mean by that because people >> Yeshua means salvation. Um, but many Christians now refer to Jesus as Yeshua, which is one of the names of Joshua. Um, which is, I think, a step better than Jesus, which is Greek, but it's not for me to to determine that. >> I agree with. >> Okay. Okay. But when the Jews received Torah, we saidishma, we told Hashem, "We're going to do it, and then we'll figure it out. Then we'll keep learning. We'll start doing the mitzvah, and then we'll learn. We'll we've we've obligated ourselves to understand more and go deeper." And I remember when I first started becoming coming back to Torah when I was at the ripe old age of 30. Um that's what I did. That's what I did. It's it's anytime you give something of power, something precious into someone's hands. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. It's like in the army, you know, the day they give you the gun and bullets, it's like the officers are because you're giving them something important, something. It's not a toy. So when I give the most precious, the second most precious thing in my life after my children or my wife, um, when I give that into someone else's hands, it does matter to me that they don't put the seat seat on their belt loops. I've given them what I see as the revealed word of Hashem in this world. And it matters to me what they do with it. It's painful. >> I have what to say to that, but I think it's really healthy that we make sure that we in order to police. >> I I would say that I agree with you. Policing is the wrong word. U for me, I don't even do that. I would say, but I feel a sense of responsibility and a sense that as fellow believers in Jesus or Yeshua, they would listen to me from a different point of view than maybe to either of you. So that's why I feel um a sense of responsibility for one. Second, like I think the main thing that that that I see bothers me in the Christian world, at least for us as Christians, is when it's great when people find the Torah and the richness in it as Christians. Um maybe even if they don't, but the real problem is everything of value in Christianity is built on a Jewish foundation. Then there's either a problem of Christians refusing to acknowledge that or secondly if they do acknowledge it to try to say okay Torah is cool but now it's mine >> it's mine and it's no longer yours >> um or that we are Israel like like we are you know um then this kind of prideful attitude comes in which I think expresses itself in in what has hurt you really uh and produced the oped that you I would think. So the so I I feel that bothers me in the Christian world and I try to address it. >> Okay. So what I would say to this and I'm really enjoying this. We should hang out more. [laughter] Um is uh you know you said it terrifies you to you know give over something so precious to you and that's a beautiful sentiment and a holy one. But there's something I would say just on a personal level in my journey. I've come to really believe what the sages say about fear. That fear is idolatry. I've got my fears, but at least I know my idols, right? And so what why is fear idolatry? Because you're afraid something may happen what shouldn't happen. But if you know that everything that happens is from God and it's good, then there's no reason to ever fear. You could be walking through the valley of the shadow of death and you will fear no evil. The Balatani gives a beautiful example. He says, "Let's say there's a plank of wood across this room. We all can walk across that very easily. You take the same plank between two tall buildings. there's a good chance you're going to fall because when you have a fear, you maximize the probability of that fear actually manifesting itself. You're giving strength to what you're afraid of. And so it would be worth sort of parsing out and dissecting what this fear is and whether it's really founded and whether there's anything really to be afraid of there because you said when you're giving something so precious. I would say that the Torah isn't really ours. It is the Torah was given to us by God, but not in order to keep to ourselves. Our mission with the Torah is to be vessels and vehicles through which we are supposed to funnel that to the world. And when we come to terms with that, then we'd stop trying to control how things look and how they fall out and understand that if this Christian in front of you that is just now struggling with all of this wants to try to say God's ineffable name, and by the way, the name is ineffable. >> Meaning that even we don't know how to say it. Even we can't even pronounce it if we want to. The greatest rabbi in the world can't pronounce it because that's the whole idea of this name. It's beyond us. So, I'm not worried about them actually saying it right because they can't and we can't. >> Wasn't that one of the miracles that in the temple that it was like the the one time a year that all the Jews were able to say the the ineffable name and then as soon as they walked out they forgot it. It [laughter] was like [clears throat] >> Right. Right. No, but but I I think the point that I'm trying to say is that I have I used to be very threatened by Christians coming and proitizing me. Now, I've come to realize that from their perspective, a lot of them don't even know it's a bad thing or it's a wrong thing >> or they don't even know that it's insulting or >> insulting and to the degree where for me it's actually not insulting. Sometimes I'm actually flattered by it because number one, it it's it's something that has brought them such life and meaning and truth. My monity says that, you know, Yeshua or Jesus, however you want to say it, that that that he has brought Genesis through Deuteronomy to hundreds of millions of people. He's part of the process of of redemption. And so they're trying to bring this Jew, this rabbi that has given them so much light and love and they're trying to share that. So I just try to respectfully explain to them that it's one thing for them to come up to me in in taxes and do that. It's another thing in Jerusalem after our history and the inquisitions and the murder and the, you know, proitizing at the edge of the sword. It's not really respectful here. And when I explain that to them, they're very receptive of that, right? Because they come to me and they say, "We're just trying to remove the scales from your eyes." And I say, "That's so funny. I'm also trying to remove the scales from my eyes." But if I'm trying to remove the scales from my eyes, and you're trying to remove the scales from my eyes, who's going to remove the scales from your eyes? We all have our scales, but if we're so u consumed with clarifying the other guy's position, then we only have so much attention and focus and we're missing out on our own. And so for me, it I just whenever I want to sort of try to control someone else's thing, I just try to turn it right back inwards and say, where am I? Where can I be refined? Because if this person is in my life and I'm having an emotional reaction, there's something God is telling me through that that I can grow in my own journey. >> Speaking of fears and dangers, so if we talk about um the question of Christians drawing closer, the nations drawing closer to Torah, is it dangerous or bad or good for the Jewish people? I would say the people that feel that they are lost tribes by and large are never going to come to Israel in large numbers. And so it's best just to ignore that position. I mean they will try but I trust the Jewish people to to deal with that. The other part is that people that claim to be spiritually Israel to have taken the identity um and they are getting now especially in the kind of hardcore neo-re movement and in the traditional Catholic movement there's a real macho resurgence of real raw Christian anti-semitism. >> You're talking about replacement theology. >> Yes. to be claiming not to be physically be Israel but to essentially in all matters spiritually replaced Israel. They are getting to be macho now and I trust Hashem is going to protect the Jewish people and so on. But I see a real danger in the diaspora that they are going to come for the Jewish people at some point. Uh and that I think is a test for real god-fearing Christians to how are we going to protect the Jewish people in the diaspora and help them home. Um but those are kind of the dangers I see and how do you feel about that? >> Um well I think the dangers are going to become greater as we come closer um not smaller. Uh one example I gave was uh the temple. Uh only Israel mash really Israel is supposed to enter the the temple. And I've already seen, for example, there was a one time they they held a reenactment, a temple reenactment, and the Temple Institute, they sent me uh the Kim, they sent me a photo of a man. They said, "Do you know this guy?" And I'm like, "No." And I was looking at it was a non-Jew who dressed up like a like a Cohen, but his clothes weren't exactly right. And um when they asked him, "Are you a Cohen?" He said, "Yes, in the tradition of meek." What? >> And the thing is if that happened in the real temple that would be it would be how do you say it would how do you say how do you say >> it would be a disgrace to the name of God. >> Uh no it would actually be a sin. It would profaining the name >> profaining the name of God profaining the temple. Um there's a guy who is sprinkling he took the ashes of a non suited red heer that was burned and he's sprinkling it on non-Jews Christians in America saying in order since we believe in Jesus we are a fry and we are Israel and we need to be purified. So he's using those ashes. Now those Christians will say we're Israel we're purified so we can go up to the temple. Right now there is no temple but that would be a big problem. Okay. So, the way I would address that is this. I remember when I was in after serving in the army, I I went to New York and I was walking down time in Time Square and I ran into a group of black Hebrews. You know the black Hebrews. They were dressed like the Cohen God on Yum Kipper. They had like the you know the whole thing the ground and I was walking by with the like you with the yamak on your head. You Jewish like yeah I'm Jewish. They said one who acts like a child is childish. So one who acts like a Jew is Jewish. So whereas you are like a Jew, we are the real Jews. And I just was like, I love that. I love that. That is such a good take because I always didn't like the like the word Jew. I wasn't like threatened. I'm like, they're saying they're the Jews. Are they going to be in the No, it's not. Okay, you can say that. Feel free to say that. Halai. I feel like Moses the sent if only all of the all of the camp were to be prophesizing. If only the whole world was yearning for such a thing. And so what I'm saying is don't worry about that happening in the temple because it's one thing to happen in a temple reenactment. It's another thing to take the most contentious sensitive 400 acres is it? I forgot the in the world and build a temple on it. Right. And when this happens, we're going to be beating our swords into plowshares. Iran is going to be sending delegations to offer sacrifices in the temple. The world is going to be so radically different that we don't need to worry about that dude with the thing, you know, like that's not we're going to be in a different paradigm at that point. So to take to be suffering the consequence of this vision that you have of God forbid, you know, a crucifix in the in the like the Holy of Holies, it's it's just absurd. And the thought of that, >> that's exactly what I envisioned. By the way, >> the thought of that the >> I envisioned an altar with a huge cross on top of it. I'm like, >> you have to keep in mind, Rabbi Adam Burkowitz, that our mind is also the sanctuary of our soul, [laughter] right? And so even to allow ourselves to envision a crucifix in the holy of holies, it's so number one, it's absurd. It's crazy. It's not real. >> It's not real. So like why is that something that should cause you fear? It's not something to fear. If either we trust in Hashem and then when this temple is built, we don't need to worry about that. That's that's a lot. And here's what I want to say. Do I have your blessing? Just to take one one more step further regarding, you know, Ephraim and who's who and what's what. There's a very human impulse to say to try to understand things. I'm from this tribe and the Armageddon is going to play out like this and the apocalypse is going to play out like that. Messiah is going to show up in this way and you know my friend Rabbi Yeshi Fleer, he has an aversion to whenever I talk about the way Messiah's coming in Iran and Russia and there's going to be Messiah. He doesn't want to hear it. He doesn't want to hear it. It's not that he doesn't believe in. He's like, "We have a job in this world." We have a job. Let's focus on our job, which is to bring God's presence in the world to be a living testimony, a voice of Jewish courage and pride and faith and trust in God and the way that reflects on a national level to the world to sanctify God's name. And as the book, you know, you know, as the Torah tells us, the mysteries are for God, the revealed are for us here in this world. Let's focus on our job and let God take care of his. I wish the Jewish people all the best luck with dealing with those kind of cooks, but 99% of of all Christians would condemn that. Um, and you know, >> and we have our Cooks. [laughter] Many would argue I'm one of them. >> So, um, you did bring up something else in your article, which is this issue of cultural appropriation. Maybe I No, no. I I I referred to it as um I said replacement theology is thank God very much receding um at least with the Christians that connect with Israel. And I nicknamed this new phenomenon of a prime and mitzvah not like the Jews do them as appropriation theology. I would love to hear you guys' response on this, but really Christianity is entirely built on an appropriation of just all Jewish concepts. It's 12 Jewish guys 2,000 years ago who introduced us to the Jewish Bible, a particularly Jewish way of interpreting it, which we call the New Testament, a Jewish concept of the Messiah, of resurrection of the world to come. And [clears throat] basically the entire Christian faith is appropriating Jewish context and in a particular way applying it to the nations. So the whole thing is appropriation. Like 40% of the gospels are just circulating around Passover and what happened. [clears throat] >> There's a side to that. There's a way to understand that that's very unreassuring. >> You know, there's also a way to look at it. You know, I saw some video of uh some, you know, white guy in college wearing rostas and he was like accosted by this black woman. She's like, "You're appropriating the rostas. They belong to us." And he's like, "I think they're really cool." So I wore them. Another word for appropriation is flattery. Right. And so they are coming and saying there's truth to this and we want to broadcast that to the world and we want to live by it. And yes, so there have you know when there's a uh you shoot a missile 500 km what 01 degrees off it's going to land you know 13 km to the right. And so a lot of Christian teachings that I think are way off are actually coming from like a true place that has just been misunderstood. And just as we're clarifying our own misunderstandings, if they come to us and ask us, we can clarify theirs because here's the thing. I'm these people that are wearing seat seat on their belt loops. For me, it's very easy to love them and bless them. A bigger challenge is the Tucker Carlson's and the Candace Owens with seething hatred, but I really try to love them too. I really try to love them too because to have compassion >> absolutely disagree. [laughter] >> No no really but to have compassion because look [clears throat] at what look at the way to have to be a replacement theologist now and I was shocked when you said replacement theologies on the decline. It seems to me it's having a very precipitous comeback. Now it may be having this comeback because it's always darkest before dawn and it's the death throws of this philosophy. But the fact is to have it now I can understand replacement theology 500 years ago when we're getting massacred in a kasak by kasaks in some pgram in hung hungry right but now now when all of the prophecies are being fulfilled the revival of the Hebrew language the in gathering of the exiles the land of Israel and it's coming true through the nation of Israel from the God of Israel and it to me that's why this whole idea of pro-Israel Christians connecting to the roots is happening because an intellectually honest person sees what God is doing to his nation. He's like, "Oh, they actually are the Jewish people the whole time. Let us connect to them." As the prophet Zachchariah says, he says, "And the righteous of the nations will attach themselves to the house of Israel on that day and be for me like a nation." What does that mean like a nation? I don't know. I don't know. But there is some sort of deeper merging that happens. But what does it mean to attach yourself to the house of Israel? Well, a German that hit a Jew in their house in World War II. If they were caught, they would end up in the gas chambers of Ashitz right next to that Jew. So, a uh you know, when you tie your fate in with the fate of Israel, when you cast your lot with the Jewish people and you're willing to suffer because the days are coming where there will be suffering that will be demanded for those that stand with Israel. Speaking out for Israel, there will be a price to pay. >> There will be a price to pay. And and so for those that are willing to do that, to me that's much more important than theological evolution and nuance. >> Well, that slammed it home for me. I'm very serious because we're already seeing it. You know, people are like, "Oh, is anti-semitism is is anti-ionism anti-semitism?" I'm like, "No, it's worse. It's worse. Anti anti-semitism, they only hate Jews. Anti anti-ionism, they hate you, too." And it's a >> and there have been n there have been believers in Jesus who have been murdered because they support Israel. >> If one looks at it negatively, one could say it's cultural appropriation. But I would say Christianity is a reflex of what's in the Torah that says all the nations will look at the Torah and say what amazing laws the Jewish God has given to the Jewish people. Let us let us emulate. That's my position. And I and obviously as a Christian I agree with the interpretations but I don't think you can criticize Christianity for cultural appropriation without just taking out the heart of the whole thing which is uh but our test now like I think it's legitimate. I think it's positive from and and sourced in Torah for the nations to have done this. But the test is 100% I agree with you. It's going to be less about those theological nuances of what are we going to do? the pressure will come will we stand with we will be tested in our faith in the Bible but also tested in our allegiance to protecting the Jewish people and I'm I'm a big fan of Psalm 126 you know then the nations will come and say look at how beautiful it is Hashem you know I I remember I was talking to one non-Jew who does believer who who did uh who did the Passover seder and he said I just want my children to be redeemed and I'm like me too you know [laughter] it was the sweetest this thing. I wish, you know, I should get a blessing from everyone who sees this and from you too that Hashem should bless me with a slightly bigger house with a guest bedroom cuz I want to invite everyone to Shabas. I want to it's it's the the mitzvah if are so beautiful. The the they they make life beautiful and so many times as Jews we forget it. You know, I I saw this interview with a with a non-religious a secular Israeli soldier said, "I look forward to putting on to fill in every morning." Jill only it's not doesn't keep show he's like I just love my fillin every morning and I'm like where are my fillin I want to go put mine on [laughter] it was just so beautiful um I also want to say the obvious if I may um I don't want anyone to misunderstand me since um I'm I'm playing the bad cop on this panel [laughter] um the the three the thing that unites unites the three of us most strongly is we all three believe that gulah redemption messiah is coming and we don't know how it's going to come but we know that an essential part of that process is the reunification of of of of Jews and Christians of us coming together um and not just uh not just uh oh they're supporting us they're but mamish's brothers um and I I compare it to uh two people slow dancing with headphones listening to different music. There's going to be some some sore toes at the end. Okay. But we have to learn to to to love each other anyway, to forgive each other, and to keep dancing anyway because it's a good thing. So, first of all, I think that's beautiful. Um I wonder sometimes, you know, when sometimes like there's been so much hatred between us for thousands of years. I'm like, not exactly, you know, like do we really need to forgive each other or do we need to forgive them, right? Because I mean, we weren't exactly committing genocide against them and inflict, you know, we were the recipients of tremendous tremendous amounts of persecution. And so to equivocate, I know now I'm taking a different position, but uh but I feel like I can take it because it's coming from a place of true redemption. What is redemption? And I always wondered what's the difference between salvation and redemption. And so I think salvation is when we're surrounded by 23 Arab states, 57 Muslim states and Hamas and Iran and they're coming against us and help us God and he saves us. Redemption is where we're able to look back at all of the pain and the suffering and all the October 7ths and say now we can see why that needed to happen to bring us to the place that we are right now. Meaning if we believe that that ano there's nothing but God in the world and that everything is for the good because God is good then everything that happens to us it it it doesn't happen to us it happens for us including October 7th as painful as it is to say it didn't happen to us it happened for us and when you go to the different um units on the front lines in the army I was in Golani you know the patch of the tree and then there's tan khanim the paratroopers and they have a a snake with wings, whatever. They're all pulling off their patches, throwing them away, and putting this patch, right? It says Messiah and a picture of the temple. >> I knew you were going to make me cry. I knew, [laughter] >> right? Because because it's waking [clears throat] us up to our mission, to who we are, >> right? And and so they're they are uh you know, tools and they're when a man beats a dog with a stick, what does the dog do? It bites at the stick. And so I can't help but to feel looking back at history, maybe there is something for them to forgive us for. Because I can't help but to think that on a deep visceral level, the Jew hatred throughout the generations has been from a deep subconscious anger at us for not being who we're supposed to be >> and not doing what we're supposed to do. >> Yes. >> And I'm not justifying the pugs and I'm not justifying any of that. >> Which is why now that we are doing what we're supposed to do, they love us. Go figure. >> Well, who loves us and who doesn't? Because it we can only truly do what we're supposed to do when we're back in the land. >> Yes. >> Okay. And that's why I wanted to read this prophecy here from the book of Ezekiel because it has within it, it speaks to this generation and this moment so powerfully that I actually wanted to read it inside. Thus said the Lord, Hashem Elohim, it is not for your sake that I act, oh house of Israel, but for my holy name that you have desecrated among the nations where you came. I will sanctify my great name that is desecrated among the nations that you have desecrated among them. Then the nations will know that I am Hashem, the word of the Lord, Hashem Elohim. And I will become sanctified through you before their eyes. I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the lands and I will bring you into your own soil. So first of all, God is saying there that the very existence of the exile of the diaspora is a desecration of his name. That the nation say, "How great can the God of Israel be that his nation is scattered around the world?" So for all of these religious, God-fearing, ultraorththodox, nuanced uh hahikic Jews of the exile, they're missing the forest for the trees to come back to the land. God is calling us back and they're missing that entire thing. But it says, "I will take you from among the nations and gather you to the lands. Then I will sprinkle pure water upon you that you may become cleansed. I will cleanse you from your contamination and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from you and put within you a heart of flesh. >> I will put my spirit within you." People will say, "This very land which had been desolate has become like the garden of Eden. and the ruined, desolate, and demolished cities have become fortified, inhabited. God is doing many things here. One of the things I thought I actually underlined it there, but uh but no, it's I meant to also read Jeremiah 16 where God says, "I will bring you back to your land. I will first send the fishers." What is he saying with the fishers? People like Fleer that are going and sharing the beauty of Israel and the mission and the passion and the purpose. I I would personally rather live in a beat up leaky caravan on a mountaintop in Judea surrounded by jihadists than in a mansion in New York or Florida. And it's [clears throat] not even close, right? Because the the beauty of life here is so overwhelming that but so there's the fissurers that were pulling out and and then God says and those that aren't listening who have hearts of stone that aren't being pulled back that are u so attached to their possessions and their perception and illusion of security that don't return. And he says, "Then I will send hunters." hunters like Candace Owens, like Tucker Carlson, like Dan Bilzerian, like Anna Kasparian, like these people that are really, really pushing hard the narrative that not Israel, but Jews. Jews are um sinister and evil and it's coming from the right and it's coming from the left. And all it's going to take is one black swan event, one unforeseen circumstance, and this tinder box that we call a world that all of a sudden this Israel attacks Iran, Iran attacks Israel, America attacks Iran, the skies shut, no air travel, something happens, and then there's empty grocery store shelves. Those Jews are going to be getting it from the right and the left. And this illusion of security is going to be shattered in a moment. And that's what keeps me up at night. That's what I'm consumed with. That's what my prayers are about. And that's why I say to Jews, number one, pack a backpack and come here. I'm not asking you to make aliyah. That's a huge commitment. Just come for a year. Okay? And if you don't like it, you could go back because when you that that's number one. Jews come home now. >> Yes. >> Now. Now. And the second part is Christians, a lot of Christians say, "What is your message to us?" And I've always said, "You have to listen to your own heart. I don't know. But there is a message and that is to fortify yourself and trust and faith in the God of Israel. And if you feel it in your heart and you feel compelled to do so, have courage and strength to go and defend and protect your Jewish brothers and sisters that are going to be in a tremendous amount of fear and disorientation and tremendous danger. M >> so that that's what I have to say which maybe if you understood the how consumed I am with that you can see why the guy with the seat in his belt loops isn't exactly keeping me up at night you know so that's sort of where where I'm coming >> fair enough that's the same thing that's keeping me up at night from the Christian side of things is to get the church ready for that and to take the right stand to not be even though God allows these hunters it is a woe to them in and ultimately in their personal judgment before God. Will we be able to be on the side of standing with the Jewish people? We're happy to help them home, but right now, I mean, we our family's been part of helping them home from Russia. Um, and we're happy to help them home. Those are willing to go. But there's still over half of the Jewish people are scattered around still. And what will we do when when it gets rough out there as as the church? When the question came about, is this good for the Jewish people about Christians seeking Torah and seeking these things, I thought about being the coim, the Levitical priests. Is it good for them? Is it happy for them? Is it It's tough. It's a tough calling. It's not really like good or bad. It's like it's rough for Israel to be in that role. Um, so I see it more as like you guys have a calling. That that analogy that analogy spoke to me cuz I could imagine being go and you wear your cohen dress and everything and all of a sudden you have this this schleer of a yid come up to you and he's like and you look at you're like that's your that's your offering you [laughter] know. So that's kind of like the position I'm in. I'm like >> yeah I'll tell you why it's rough. My roughness is not about them. My roughness in my journey has been about my fellow Jews. the amount of of rage and attacks that I have faced in my work with the Christian world and my mission with the Christian world that I think is holy and why do I feel like it's holy because you know we have the land of Israel fellowship where we have hundreds of families from around the world come together every week on Zoom and we connect and we pray for each other and I feel uplifted from them for years now a when I sit with a Christian when I sit with someone like you and you have a question for me that question is a question from your unique background and perspective that I've never heard and the answer that comes from me strengthens me and your words strengthen me. And so we both emerge from this interaction feeling closer to God without having changed each other at all. Right? And so that to me is a godly thing. And then all of a sudden we had this television show called Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem where we had, you know, it was a TV show if you want to. You could Google it on on YouTube. It's it's a long time ago. But I remember someone once took a picture of me on stage and photoshopped a picture of an Easter bunny wearing a talit a Jewish prayer shaw and put it out there and everyone's like Ari, how can you do this? The Christians are getting I'm like that wasn't there. That wasn't there. But that is the I I share that story because it's there there have been attacks like that um that have been just so vicious and I'm like why? We're actually waking up to the fact that we have a mission to the nations of the world, you know, and it's almost like you said, I wish I had a guest room. I totally get it. You're like, it feels like a cow that needs to be milked, >> you know, like you you so badly want to So, one of the things I do, just so you know, people that really want to come over, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm out of rooms, but I have a tent. You want to sleep in in in the tent? I love that. All the meals you're with us all the time. You can stay in the house all the time." And people do it, you know, because I also love love to do that again, not to change anyone to anything that has no desire in my mind to change anyone to anything other than this guy. And there's a lot of changes I want to make there. So anyways, that's that's sort of my posture and position on this. And I feel like this has been really like a fascinating thing because it's sort of brings out different prisms and perspectives on this redemptive times. And these are waters that are we're we're navigating now for the first time. >> And so we have to be really, you know, grateful but also forgiving. I [clears throat] think >> I think we're I think we're there. I think we something very beautiful came out of this which is totally expected since anytime I get together with either of you separately or I think this is the first time all three of us been together. Uh it's it's always a kishm. It always sanctifies God's name and I really appreciate that. I appreciate you coming in. [music]