The Truth About Why My Wife Filed For Divorce- Saadya Notik

My wife actually filed for divorce. It wasn't a threat. Like she threatened many many times and eventually came to she literally was like I can't I can't I I I'm sorry but I have to I have to do this. I actually tell men, I say, "Take 100% [sighs] radical responsibility for everything that is yours and zero responsibility for that which isn't was that my I was so tethered to to the way that she felt about me and thought about me that if she was okay with me, I was okay with me. If she was not okay with me, I wasn't okay with me. I was like lost without her approval." And the most empowering thing is that whatever you're looking for, it's inside of you. >> No one's coming to your rescue. No rabbi is going to have some sort of beautiful advice that's going to make everything click for you and then all of a sudden you're going to become that masculine man. No, that's just you giving up more power. People want to unburden themselves of the secrets that they've been carrying on their own. Why should they carry it on their own? It's not for them to carry on their own. And by the way, brother, the thing you're carrying, I'm also carrying. >> Define masculinity and femininity for me. Okay. Today uh we have a very special guest. His name is Sadia Natik. Correct. >> Correct. >> All right. He is a relationship coach. He is a teacher who uh leads groups of people. He has workshops and retreats and groups and deals a lot with uh marriage. He has a deep understanding about masculinity and femininity. Uh we're going to dive into that. He has changed lives of couples and families. And this is a man who can sit uh who can sit with your uh brokenness. He uh he can sit with your fear um and help you find the parts um that you want to heal. >> Sadia, welcome to the Struggle Podcast. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for coming in. So before we start uh I would like to touch on something. I know that uh you have a fascinating story to share uh as far as marriage goes and your personal story and I would love you to share the story with the audience. >> Okay. Thank you Joe. >> Thank you. >> Um so I'll start my story at the point of inflection which was that my wife filed for divorce. Um, and that I think probably more than anything else really sent me into a very very deep journey of um, self-discovery. Um, but to say it more specifically, it was a journey into my pain. Um, I think there was nothing more than I wanted to be in my entire life than a good husband. That was something that I dreamed of from a very, very young age. Even more than being a good father or anything else, I was like, I'm going to be a great husband. And to be hearing from my wife that that wasn't what I was was devastating to me. It really shattered my world. And um and it sent me on a very deep journey into my own healing. Looking at all the different parts of myself and what was showing up in the marriage and what it was that was really causing her pain to the point where she felt that she couldn't live with me. Because, and this might sound really shocking, but um if you would have asked me a couple weeks before my wife saying, "You need to get the hell out of the house." If I thought I was a good husband, I would have told you yes. Like I I thought I was a good husband. And the truth is that I was. It's not that I wasn't a good husband. The truth is that in many ways I was a very good husband, but there were some key aspects to what it means to be a good husband and to be in a relationship that I was not embodying. And that was enough to motivate my wife to say like you need to get out of here like I can't live with you anymore. So my question to you is that um why only till you she filed for divorce is when you woke up. She probably you know mentioned and and expressed her feelings plenty. How this is after how how long living together? >> Yeah. At that point we were married for nine years. in 9 years. So in 9 years, I mean I'm we're talking and we want people to relate to this. They're living for years and years uh in marriages and why does it take that long or something on that caliber to happen that you woke up then? >> Yeah. Um, I think that because more than anything else I wanted to be married and stay married, the prospect of me being divorced and having my family torn apart, um, you know, it >> did not sit well with me. >> Yeah, it did not sit well with me at all. Um, I I think that there was a very very deep part in myself that had some sort of consciousness or awareness that as much as I wasn't able to make sense of it with my mind, but that there was truth to what my wife was saying. And that if I could just figure it out, I'd be able to make a turnaround. Um, my issue was I was trying to figure it out with my mind by yourself. Um well also looking to therapists and friends and others to help me to understand what was really going on. But I was doing with my mind like my mind was my my safe space you know my words my articulation like trying to figure it out and make sense of it. >> It was you you were only going into yourself and the way you were wired that's how you tried to make logic out of it. >> Yeah. Well I was I was doing it with my brain. I was trying to look at all the different parts of the relationship and like what did she do and what did I do and like how does this make sense? It's like I hear what you're telling me, but it also doesn't make sense with this other detail. And it wasn't until I I tried that for for a while and it just wasn't working where like it became too much for me. And what it felt like was like my brain broke. Like it felt like my mind actually had to like come undone so that I could actually drop into my heart, which is where all my feelings are and which is also where all the healing is. >> I wasn't going to figure it out with my brain. >> What was the major complaints in those nine months? like what was a major thing that that she did not feel uh she's being seen or understood? What was her if you can you just in one word what was the >> Yeah, I didn't know it at the time cuz if I if I would have known it then I would have been able to do something about it but looking back at it I I feel like I have a very profound understanding of it today. >> Um I feel like it comes down to this one thing which is yes as you said it like to be seen but what does it really mean? means that a woman can bear a tremendous amount of pain and endure all sorts of hardships and she's willing to for for love, for connection, for intimacy. Uh the problem is is that when she is hurt and when she is in pain and she brings that hurt and she brings that pain to you, can you actually be there with her in her pain? Can you actually see it? >> Can you validate it? >> Yeah. Can she really sense in her body that you actually get it? not just validate it like do you really understand like from the inside what it is that I'm experiencing here and um and and the truth is that I I didn't really for the longest time >> right >> now uh I know that you are uh you did a lot of work in and in and uh understanding masculinity and femininity. >> Yeah. >> And um define masculinity and femininity for me. >> Yeah. So, I want to get into that in a moment, but actually to to your last question, just to define it a little further, maybe a little bit clearer is that it's never about like what's happening in the relationship, right? Like when I was separated from my wife, people were like, "What did you do?" Right? Like what's your addiction? Right? They assume like, "Oh, maybe there was an affair or like are you a sex addict? Are you a drug addict?" And the truth is there was none of that. So, it's like, "Well, what happened?" It's like >> nothing, right? It's not about what happened. It's about >> it's about can I bring my fears to, can I bring my pain to? and I bring the ways that I feel like you're hurting me, even if they're relatively minor or even major, but like can you actually see me in my pain? Can you actually hold space for it? So, with me in my relationship, it wasn't that anything specific happened, but even if there were minor um infractions or minor ways that I was hurting my wife, anytime she would bring it to me, I wasn't available for it. I was not capable of holding her pain, I would immediately become defensive >> because the way that I felt was that if you're sharing your pain with me, whatever you're sharing, it's about me. me. I took it personally. It's an attack. >> It's an attack. I You're invalidating me. You're saying I'm not a good person. I'm not a good husband. >> And because that's what I wanted to be more than anything else. To be hearing from my wife that I wasn't getting it right, that I wasn't being a good husband was the deepest affront to me. It hurt so much. So, I had to squatchch it. I had to invalidate it. I had to deflect or project or defend myself, right? >> And at a certain point to a woman or to anybody, that's maddening. It's like, I'm not saying you're a bad person. you know, I'm I'm just sharing with you my own pain, my feelings, the way you're the way you're hurting me. >> And I could not I had no space in my system to hold her pain. >> And and that the reason why I figured out and learn through all of my deep work was cuz I didn't have space in myself to hold my own pain. [clears throat] >> It wasn't about my wife's pain. It wasn't about my wife's pain. It was the fact that when she was in pain, I was in pain that she was in pain. But I didn't know how to hold that pain. And if I can't hold my own pain, how will I ever be able to hold your pain? I couldn't. So, it wasn't until my brain broke and I really sunk into my feelings and entered into my body and held space for my own parts that were crying out, my own parts that were feeling overwhelmed, my own parts that were feeling scared and lonely that then I was able to be like, "Oh my god, Mushki, I could see it in you." Like, I could see it now. >> I could see what it looks like when you feel when someone invalidates you cuz I allowed myself to experience that invalidation and feel the pain of that invalidation. So now when you're telling me that you feel invalidated by me, I'm like, "Oh, that's actually familiar. I can relate to it. It's not foreign to me anymore." >> So for a lot of years, you would say, is it fair to say that you were running away? You were hiding or you didn't feel that um you [snorts] were hiding something. It's just who you are. Yeah, I actually do think that I was running. Um but instead of running away, I was running too. Instead of running away from the relationship or from Mushki, I was running toward her. >> I was like building my identity on her, which is another way of saying running away from myself, >> right? >> Meaning I wasn't comfortable in myself. I hadn't really accepted whole parts of myself. So I was looking to her to be my comfort, to be my safe zone. Like can you just give me comfort? Can you take away my pain? So it was not like you were running away let's say from the relationship and you were cold and you were like um trying to be busy with something make it transactional instead of emotional but you were saying you were running to her and trying to be a better husband and trying to please the way you saw the way you thought that this is the way to do it but but you were running towards her instead of usually what people do is they they battle up and they become workaholics or whatever they run away or they do what you were doing the opposite. >> Yeah, I was doing the the exact opposite. I was basically it was like a an unspoken contract which is like I will not have a self and I'll make my entire life and my entire existence about you >> and then through that just don't call me out. Don't call me in. Don't point out any ways how could you? Right? Because I'm the perfect husband. Everything I do is for you. I don't make any of my own decisions. Right? I I leave all of the decision making up to you. Like how could you have a a complaint against me? All I ever do is for you. >> But that had an opposite effect. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Initially it works out really well and that's partially why we were attracted to each other and got married, right? Like I felt with her I'd be able to relinquish the control. I would be or or not be in control. I'd be able to be >> like she was the decision maker. She was very decisive. She had a maybe like a stronger sense of self, you know, more direction. So for me it was like, oh, this is attractive. I could continue to like not have to take the risks of having a self because she'll just take up that space. And for her, it was her comfort zone because she's like with this guy, he's gonna he's not going to fight me. He's just going to go with my program. >> Why did it backfire? >> Yeah. It backfires because what works initially, the thing that actually gets you into the relationship, it's like the thing that God dangles in front of you to lure you into a relationship. Otherwise, none of us would ever get into relationship in the first place. that comfort and that safety. It turns out the thing that you thought of as comfort and safety is the very thing that actually is the most assaulting and dangerous. So it backfired because she's like, "Wait a second. This guy has no self." Like he's not leading. He doesn't have his own purpose, his own direction, his own clarity. Which means essentially that I as the woman, as the wife, I'm carrying the entire relationship, right? >> He's not carrying his weight because he's basically looking to me. And when I turn to him and I'm like, "Well, what do you think or what do you want?" It was like, "Well, what do you want?" You know? >> Yeah. And how can a woman feel safe with a man who doesn't have his own groundedness in self? Like this is my opinion. This is what I want. I have clarity and direction on who I am and what my contribution is. It starts to feel like I'm in a relationship with myself. What do I need this guy for, you know? And on top of we have all the burdens of raising a family and and making a living. It's like who needs this, you know? >> Now, what was when that news hit that you got that she filed for divorce? Um, what was your first step? What went through your mind and you said, "I got to make a change. I'm going to do it now." And what did you do? >> Yeah. So, the truth is I started with her filing for divorce, but we were in a process already for a while before then where she first said, you know, you need to get out of the house, which was a total shock to my system. I didn't understand what was going on. I was completely overwhelmed and confused. So, it took about like 9 months, I would say, from when she first said, like, I can't live with like this anymore. You you got to go. And it originally started just with like a shabas. She's just like, "You have to leave for shabas." And I was like, "Leave for SHA." I was like, "What do you mean? I'm not going anywhere. Like, it's my family. It's my house. I'm like just leaving, you know?" And and also because I really didn't understand what was really going on, right? >> Um so the the filing for divorce happened, you know, some call it 9 months later, maybe a year later, we had gone through a whole process. And part of that process, we had um flown to see a marriage counselor who we were told like, "You don't get divorced before seeing this woman." It was a three-day intensive, just the two of us and her. >> Yeah. We spent this was in Florida. This Yeah, this lady's like in her 60s, maybe early 70s. She's been doing this for decades. And >> is she a magician or what? >> No, she's not. [laughter] Yeah, she is not a magician. But that was that was the way it was sort of pitched to us. Um, right. >> There was a a very wellrespected coach who suggested to my wife that look before you make the final decision and get divorced like give her this one last shot. Like she's really good at what she does. >> And what was your experience over there? >> Um, well, first of all, we were in Florida and it was dead of winter here. So, it was it was very nice. Lovely ride there. >> It was lovely already. Like our relationship already improved, you know, just being away from the kids and having some sunshine. >> Sometimes the weather does that. >> Seriously, that's the first thing, right? The couple's counselors like, "Did you try moving to sunny state?" >> Um, no. But we we went there and yeah, first of all, it was actually already a relief just to be away from the intensities and the pressures of home, to be away from the freezing cold and to just be in Florida and have some space with each other. Already that opened up like, you know, some space, some safety, attraction. It was good. But we went and sat with her and essentially what it was was her basically hearing like Mushki's story and my story and her grievances and my grievances and it was like let's figure out a way to air like 50 50/50 grievances. Now, I I don't think this the way this woman thinks of it, and I'm sure she's helped many other couples, >> but [snorts] about 5 days after that 3-day intensive, Mushki was like, "Yeah, I I'm I'm sure I know what I need to do, and I'm clear on it, and we need to get a divorce." Right? >> Because I've seen and heard of a few people that these couple counseling is sometimes doing uh worse than it you know it's it's it's it's uh pe both people are spewing at each other in front of each other um negativity and is that working in any way or is that is that is that another way and for some people it does. >> Uh I think that like classic couples counseling can help. Um, but I think it's just like a for the most part it's a band-aid. >> Um, I do think that the notion is that basically there's like a 50/50 split here that relationships are a dynamic, which of course they are, >> and that it's a partnership, which of course it is, >> and that if we can just get if we could just understand, you know, what it is that you need from your spouse and we could try to like figure out a way to give it to them, then everyone will be happy and satisfied. But what I find is that there's the surface things that are going on, like surface the moving parts, let's call them, of the relationship. And those are never the issue. Those are always just a symptom of a of a deeper >> It's way deeper than >> way deeper. And and and the deeper thing, by the way, it sounds like it's like rocket science, like it would be the most complex thing, but actually it's not even >> could be little simple things, but it's not like uh if you're not taking out the garbage or I'm doing this, I'm doing that. It's way deeper than that. So, after that counseling that you went to Florida, what happened? What was the next step? How did you get back on track where you are now? >> Yeah. So, well, first was 5 days later where my wife basically said she knows what she needs to do. And to me, like Yeah. Like she really went out on a limb and this was like the last stitch effort. So, I was I was like my heart was really broken. I I I don't think I had ever been in so much emotional pain in my entire life as a grown man, a father of three kids. It was I'll never forget it was PM um morning and I was like curled up into the fetal position on the couch in my living room at my house. My wife was in the bed in the bedroom and I was just like just like had this pit in my stomach and I was crying and heaving from pain >> that like my wife was like this is final like we're done. Um but lots of twists and turns in the plot, you know, ba but basically I I made a decision um that I was gonna completely completely commit myself to my own growth and to not to Mushki and not even to the marriage even though I very very much wanted to stay married but the commitment was to myself. I realized that there was growth that I needed to do and there was a part of me this like this very just present part that wanted to equal the playing field. was like, "Yeah, but right like yes, I have work to do, but what about you?" Right? You have all these things you have to work on. No problem. I'll do my work. I'm I'm totally committed to doing my work, but are you going to do your work? And it became clear that that method was not going to work. It was just not going to work. Mushki was not having that. And good for her for not having that, >> right? >> And it was the greatest gift. >> And you hear that all the time. You hear that I'm going to do my thing and you do yours and it's going to be like a, you know, like a transaction, like a business. We'll put in 50/50 and this and that. But that's not what you're saying. What you're saying is it's completely inner work and it sounds like that this was um so important to you. This was um the pain. It's the pain was unbearable, but it was more than that. It was like I have to make some changes. Yeah. I I I basically like a very very deep like holy part of me just saw like the truth. Even though like I couldn't see with my eyes, like I couldn't visually see what she was saying. There was this part in me that that that felt that the things that she was reacting to and responding to that there was like deep truth to it and I knew that I had a choice. It was either I make it like what aboutism like okay I'll do my work but what about you and lose myself in the process and lose her in the process and keeping my family together or I was like okay this is like a cosmic divine opportunity for me to go allin on myself and and basically what I what I told myself is like I I'm going to take radical responsibility like radical responsibility >> what does that mean >> what it means is in its most extreme form what it means is that there is nothing else like mushki doesn't exist this is just all there is is sada that's it >> and is it is is really never mean I am going to become a mashpa a giver and that's where it ends >> no no it's a kind of the opposite actually >> okay what does it mean >> it means cuz that's what I was doing my whole marriage I was saying I'm going to be a mashia that's all I ever wanted to do I'm going to be an amazing husband right I'm going to be the best most sensitive husband and I'm going to be able to hold space I'm going to be an awesome lover and rand that was my vision and and what I did by doing that was I gave up myself right >> and how could you be in a healthy relationship or or relationship period if you don't have a self >> but is there not a healthy way a balanced way to be a mashia and a giver uh and not lose yourself in the process >> yeah but it but it starts in the inverse it starts with having a self starts with really grounding yourself very very deeply into yourself and then from that place give you're giving you're giving from the overflow of self not from not from a weak self Well, what I would call it is it's it's like we all have a a deep need like a primal need for connection and closeness and to belong and to be seen by other people. So, what many of us learned very very early on is to give up on oursel in order to be in connection with others. So, what many of us do in relationships, many men do this in their relationships, many women do it in their marriages, is I say like how can I contort myself? How can I make myself smaller so that I can be a giver? How can I How can I >> shrink yourself? >> Shrink myself, right? How can I contort myself into the shape that I think that this person needs me to be in order for them to be okay with me? >> If if you're really if you kind of strip it down like another layer, what it's basically saying is is like it's really manipulation. What it's saying is is I'm going to do the things that I think you need me to do so that you can be happy with me. In other words, I'm not happy with myself. I'm not really okay with myself. I don't feel grounded and confident in who I am. So, I need you to tell me who I am. And I'm going to do all the things so that you'll inevitably like me. It's like a trade-off. >> Yeah. >> I won't I won't bother you or disturb you so that you can then give me love. It's like it's like you said, it's a transaction. It's a business. >> Yeah. >> But the way to the what the journey that I went into is like realizing that there is no other. All means is that everything was put here for my own soul's evolution. So if my wife is coming to me and she's angry and she's bitter and she's vindictive and she's threatening and she's she's saying that's it. It's over divorce. Is this am I a victim? Is is this my wife doing something to me and I am not a part like I'm a passive person in this that I'm just a victim to her emotions and her feelings or >> is this happening for me and every single word that's coming out of her mouth is actually being channeled from a much higher place of divine truth for me to find the kernel of truth in it instead of finding everything that's hard for me to hear and hard for me to swallow and negating it and and and defending against it. what's the truth here that is being offered to me as a divine gift so that I can actually grow into the man that I was born to be. >> Wow. >> And that that was the shift. I mean that radical accountability, radical responsibility meant that every single time there was a friction or or something that could have put me into fight or flight. It was like what is the gift in what my wife is sharing with me right now? What in what ways am I being shown how I'm not living with truth? In what way right now am I not really living in alignment with what's most true for me? Not for her. >> Right? >> She's saying it's about her. She needs this. She needs this. And she needs that. But really, everything she was bringing for me was just for my own evolution and growth >> because you were not showing up in a certain way. She was she was your teacher. >> Yes. >> In a certain way to and and you got the message. >> Yes. >> Now, what happened later is that she actually became attracted when she saw that you're doing these massive changes. She actually saw you [snorts] got it now. And it's not about changing her. It's about you became you and she automatically magnetically >> Yeah. >> became attracted to this. >> Yeah. >> That's amazing stuff. >> That's exactly what happened. Um and and it was it was a a serious journey. And I think initially [clears throat] um it obviously it didn't happen just like that because initially she was she was so hurt and she >> we all want to live with clarity. Nobody wants to live in a gray zone. We all We all want to be like in the comfort of yes or no, in or out. Like don't don't leave me in the gray zone, right? To keep my heart open >> means that I'm I'm I'm making myself available for hurt and for pain over and over again. Nobody wants that. We don't want to live in the dissonance and the discomfort. So she wanted clarity. Like am I in or am I out? And so even as I was showing up in new ways, like it took a long time for her nervous system to catch up because she was she was seeing this new version of me, but she didn't trust it. She was like, "It's not I can't I can't trust I'm not willing to go back to the old way because he showed up a few times like, you know, like a real mench." Like, it wasn't enough, you know. >> And how did you build trust? >> Just Yeah. Just like that. I mean, >> action. >> Well, showing up over and over and over again, you know, we can call it action, but actually it was more energetics than action. When I became trustworthy to myself, when I stopped outsourcing my trust to her, >> correct? >> Then she's trusted me. >> It wasn't that she trusted me. She's like, "Oh, this is a man who I can see trusts himself." Well, a man who trusts himself, that's a man I trust. That's a man I'll follow. That's a man I could be I feel safe with. And if I feel safe with him, then I could feel attracted to him. So, that was like it's exactly as you said it like she she started to become like I became magnetic to her. And even though her mind was saying, I need this guy out. This has to be over. I need to close this chapter and move on to another chapter. I mean, she literally told me, she's like, I'm done. We're never going back. I'm over you. I'm not in love with you. Like, I'm I'm moving on. like this is there's no way that this is ever getting back together and I just stayed the course again not to chase her. I didn't fall head over heels trying to chase her and trying to people please that would have just been more of the same. >> You were saying to yourself that even if she leaves I Sadia is becoming a new Sadia one way or another. You want to come on the train that's fine you don't then you sit sit by the side and watch. >> Yes. Exactly. >> That was the mentality. >> That was the mentality. Wow. And I did I did it with a tremendous amount of love and compassion. And it wasn't it wasn't like, you know, I'm on this train and like get on or get get the hell out of the way. Like it it wasn't it wasn't with an edge. It came with like I know that I'm on the right path for my own healing. Even if many steps along the way might be offputting to you or you might not understand them or you might not get it or you might think that my whole becoming and healing is is like contrary to everything that you want for your life. I'm not doing this for you, baby. I'm doing this for me. I want that when I do this for me and I have myself fully that you will come along for the ride because it because I want to have a whole family and I wanna I want to keep our family together. But even if it means that you are in disagreement with me, even if it means you're in disapproval of me, even if it means if you're disgusted by me, I am so committed to to to Sadia that I'm not going to waver from that path. And and that was another ma major major thing, this exact point that changed my life and and completely saved my marriage was that I was like I wasn't going to base my journey and my okayness on whether Mushki was that day giving me the approval that you're being a good boy and you're on the right path or you're being a bad boy. Like I was done with that. >> Wow. >> And the way I looked at it, the calculation was I mean it's very simple. It was like if I negate myself and I chase after this woman, there's a slight chance like a minuscule chance that I may actually win her over and be able to be reunited with her, but in the process I'll completely and totally lose myself. >> Correct? >> Whereas if I seek and search out myself and pursue myself in the deepest most profound way possible, then even if Mushki decides that that version of me, this new Sadia, she doesn't want at least I have myself. In either scenario, I'm left with myself. But if if I chase her, I there's only a slight chance I might gain her, but I'll for sure lose myself. But if I go after myself, I'll for sure have myself. And on top of it, I might also have her in the fullest way possible. >> And that's exactly that's that's literally what happened. I mean, it took time, but that's it was like a a magical mystical psychedelic journey of epic proportions. I felt like I was living with Hashem in the most real true way I ever have. I felt like I was becoming an actual like real person. And yeah, I was in a tremendous amount of pain, but I was also in a tremendous amount of ecstasy and joy and pleasure because those two things go hand in hand, right? All the while, I was trying to avoid the pain and repress the pain and not feel my own pain, which is what would happen. Every time she brought her pain to me, I would be like, "Oh my god, this hurts too much. I'd have to repress it." >> But the moment that I actually let it break my mind and enter into my heart, my heart shattered into a million pieces. That moment, yes, I was in so much pain, but I was also experiencing so much divine light, so much godliness literally courarssing through my veins. I I came alive in a way that I had never been in my entire life. And I I'm a pretty alive, passionate, vibrant person. But this level of connectedness and embodiment, I have never experienced in my life to that degree on a consistent embodied way. >> So I I like >> even in the depths of my pain, my wife and I actually were talking about this last night. We had a bit of a drive and uh we got actually into a very deep conversation. We were saying it should have just been recorded as a podcast like we should keep our keep these mics in our car because we want people to hear this but >> we were exploring it like she was like what was it cuz she's like what was it for you like how were you she's experienced it she knows it she feels it in her body but she's like >> you know but how could you help other people to get there cuz like what you had not everyone has like what was it for you that really allowed you to do it like what was the your ability to see it so as so real and so true that you were able to embody it in that level whatever we spoke about different things but interesting stuff. It's fascinating. Now, >> can you explain the difference of radical responsibility versus not radical responsibility? Like how how is a person who doesn't take radical responsibility, >> what does that look like? >> What does that look like? >> Yeah. Um that's a great question. >> I think it's it's a little bit connected to what I was saying earlier about like victimhood. I think that when a person doesn't have when a person believes that they don't have power, they don't have agency like I am not the the um like I don't have dominion and authority over my own life. So then everything that's happening around you, you're you're just like a it's just happening to you. It's you're you're just a passive participant because like I can't change the situation. Like look at my wife. Look what's going on with her. Look at her trauma. You know, look at look at our family. I mean, look, you should see our family, you know, like >> right it it it's it's placing the locus of control outside of self and placing it anywhere outside of self. Anytime you're in any scenario or situation, whatever is happening in your life, and you look at it like I have no power here, you're you're giving up responsibility. >> Correct? So to me the responsibility is not blame right it's saying I have the ability to respond that's what responsibility means the ability to respond and anytime I have the ability to respond now I can make a shift in my life I can make a change in my life >> so to me radical responsibility means everything that's happening is happening for my benefit it's happening for me not to me >> and therefore I can collaborate with all these external circumstances is to evolve myself into the fullest most expressed most embodied version of self >> and we have to be careful because there is a fine line between controlling and saying I know how to do it then taking responsibility when you say taking responsibility and doing some changes is also with a there's a balance over there you know sometimes there you got to accept certain things that you can't change But what you're saying, radical responsibility is taking responsibility for yourself, >> right? >> Not to change the wife and not to change the circumstances and not to change the mother-in-law. It's about taking radical responsibility is taking radical responsibility for yourself. >> Yeah, >> that's what it is. That's what you did. >> Yeah, that's exactly what it is. You explained it so well. >> Um, you know, I it's it is a very very like intense teaching and one might even say extreme and it is. Got it. I I accept that. And I think that sometimes, especially at the beginning of uh people's journeys or men, especially if especially if they're in a crisis place with their spouse and everything feels very precarious and very scary and they're trying to protect and control and there's like legal ramifications, it's a scary very very very scary place to be in, >> right? >> And I think for a lot of men when when they hear radical responsibility, what they hear, which is what I would have heard >> before I came to it, is take all the blame. That is also very dangerous, >> right? And they're like, "These teachings don't work for me because my wife's doing X, Y, and Z, and you're telling me to take all the blame and it's and it's driving me crazy. They don't get it." >> Yeah. And I So I I I I recently corrected somebody who came to me with this and I I was like, "That is not what I teach." >> And you're misapplying the the the teaching. So it's exactly say radical responsibility means for self. And I actually tell men, I say, "Take 100% radical responsibility for everything that is yours and zero responsibility for that which isn't >> right." Because often men are actually taking all sorts of responsibility, but it's for things that they have no control over. >> That's one. And it's not your territory. >> It's not your job. It's it's a complete distraction from the energy invested into self, your own growth and your own healing. >> Opposite effect. Completely the opposite, >> right? But it feels good. It feels noble. Oh, I'm taking responsibility for why are you taking responsibility for that? Has nothing to do with you. You're doing it. You know why you're doing it subconsciously. You don't realize it because it's much more comfortable to take responsibility or blame. It's easier even to take blame for something and to feel like a victim of sorts than to actually step into your truth and empower and say actually I have total agency to totally transform my reality. Not my wife, not my mother-in-law. I love that. You know, it's always the mother-in-law. Um but but my myself and and and that's what I mean when like it's almost like there is no wife. Like I took it to that degree. Like I looked at it like everything that was was that I was seeing and experiencing was there to help move me through my own healing. And that and that ultimately that that was really like the greatest gift. And I still look at it today. And I would do the whole thing over all of the pain. And it was it was very very very very painful and very very lonely. Very lonely. It had to be that way. It had to be that way. People who I thought would be there to support me were not. People who I didn't even know ended up coming out of the woodworks and supporting me. It's a whole, you know, another aspect of the journey. You're looking at it as if it would be a gift from Hashem. >> Greatest gift from God. >> Because there's no other way that a person can grab yourself by the bootstrap. No way. >> And say to yourself, you know what? Taking for the full responsibility. >> I never would have. >> There's no way. I never would have. I never would have come to it on my own. I needed to be confronted in that way as painful as it is. And as much as at the time I was like, why does it need to happen this way? Mushki, why do we need to go about this way? Can't we just go talk to rabbi? Can't we just go talk to therapist? Can't we just go figure it out? Right? Like I was like begging like let's literally at a point like begging her like let's figure it out. Like I'm I'm I'm I'm here. I'm I'm I'm committed. I I want to make it work. But the truth is that had we gone to a rabbi and had we and not to say I didn't speak to rabbis or therapists along the way but like had I had I put that power on this third party as though that they were going to somehow come rescue me like no one's coming to your rescue buddy. That that was a deep realization was like nobody's coming to your rescue. You have to do now again you could say like you said I can't do it by my bootstrap. So what so what was it? It was mushki saying adhan no more. I'm not willing to tolerate it. And had she not so we would have put a little patch on it and but we were actually separated. I was living outside of the house for 9 months. And that allowed me to have the space to really go into my own inner work. And it gave her the space and safety to feel into what was here instead of constantly reacting to an older version of me. She was able to like renew in her in her body and her nervous system have a renewed relationship with this newer version of my nervous system. So, you know, it's it was I mean, I would never I would never ever for not millions of dollars if you wrote me a $20 million check and said, you know, like and we could go and take that away from you and I'll give you 20 million and we could erase that from your record. I would I would there's no amount of money in the world that would would would allow me to give up the gift that I got. And what was the gift? Wasn't mushki. Wasn't my marriage. >> The gift was me. >> The gift I got was me. That's what I got. It's not that I won mushki back and now I have an amazing healed marriage. That's that that's a natural outcome that happened, but it happened from me gaining me. And that is priceless. There's no number you can put on that. So, I'm I'm genuinely like it's like I could say that with a straight face. I'm eternally grateful for the opportunity. And I almost wish sometimes when I meet other people who are in a similar space, but it's a little bit more liinal and they're like kind of in the in between and it's not 100% clear if they're here or there. I almost wish that they had as clear of an opportunity as I. My wife actually filed for divorce. It wasn't a threat. like she threatened many many times and eventually came to she literally was like I can't I can't I I I'm sorry but I have to I have to do this and had she not had it not been that crystal clear and that definitive would I have made as much of the change and as much healing and as quickly as it did? No way. >> Let me ask you um how many months was were was that till you got from when the separation was till now? I don't have the exact number, but it's over five years. I would say it's probably like um it's probably like five years and three months um from when we got separated. Something like that. >> So, what I'm hearing from you is this radical responsibility that you are uh raving about um is still going on in the five years. There is no radical radical responsibility and that's it. This is the key to marriage. It is a journey which means that every day you go home there is still radical responsibility. >> Yeah. >> Is that true? >> Absolutely true. Yeah. And it only deepens. >> It only deepens and it expands and it gets bigger and bigger. This is this is not something when you teach this this is not a >> formula that's going to get you in the door. It is a full-time job. >> Yeah. You mean you you really get it. You really get it. It's exactly that. I I I tell them like that's what I even say like my my group is called the masculine relationship relationship and the feminine relationship. Um and actually today I just came right from my fifth session of my fifth round of the masculine relationship. And I told the guys like this is you know we this is called the masculine relationship but you will always hear from me consistently across the board without exception that when we say masculine relationship yeah it sounds like we're talking about relationship outside of self like the masculine in relationship with a woman with your wife. It will always without exception mean first and foremost the masculine in relationship with self. >> And how about the feminine? Same thing. >> Same thing. >> When you teach the women, you teach them the same idea. Now you have two people who are working on themselves coming together as one. And that is bingo. >> Yeah. Exactly. Versus versus focusing on the relationship. What relationship? What relationship? The issue is not the relationship, >> right? You have a nervous system. You have a nervous system. Can you regulate your nervous system? >> People who are working on it. And then and then it could be by the way that it comes after a person working on themselves, right, and honoring themselves that it's like, wait, no, this actually this relationship is not for me. And and my divine experience and my divine gift is that it's time to actually >> to let go of this relationship with love and to move on, right? It's not to say that if you do the work that that means it will always end in my story. Like I knew for myself that this was my path and I wanted it to be so. But yeah, taking radical responsibility doesn't mean that it's always going to be like the vision that you initially anticipated or wanted or the outcome, you know, you're going to somehow avoid an outcome that you didn't want. It doesn't work that way. But and that's why it's so important that the commitment is to self because everything outside of self will constantly fluctuate, right? >> But if you're committed to self, self, the core self, self with a capital S, your nama, your soul, your imamish in Alterab's words, like that's unchanging. you know that that is something you can return to and you can rely on that it will always be there and it's never going to let you down. >> Right? >> So the commitment has to be to self. Everything outside of self, all of that's going to shift because the whole world's right here. The whole world's inside. The smallest energetic shift inside is going to shift to whole worlds on the outside. So yeah, radical responsibility and and masculine relationship, it's relationship to yourself. And why would that change when you get back together with your wife? Now I was like, now I'm going to take off my mask of radical responsibility and I'm going to feed my real self. It's not a trick. It's not a hack. It's a way of life. It's a way of living and it's the ultimate way of living. And that's why it's the greatest gift. It it's not something that that served me for a time and then now it got me what I wanted to do. Now I'm back in my marriage. Thank you for that bridge gift. It's not a bridge gift. It's the self. And the self is is is nitki. It's eternal. There's no it never goes away. So you get to live with it. And you get to live with the benefits of that. It's a gift that keeps on giving over and over and over again. And you can never go wrong with it. >> It's dynamite. It's unbelievable stuff what you're saying. But let me ask you a funny question. Before the old you, what blame? I don't like the word blame, but what would you uh blame yourself for being not in your real self, for not taking radical responsibility? Is it childhood? Is it um where did that come from till that day of the filing for divorce? >> Yeah. Uh what I discovered and I didn't realized at the time but yeah that was my childhood. It was my upbringing and um and learning essentially how to um get people to like me. I had to learn at a very young age to to get people to like me. Whatever the reasons are, >> you would call it codependency. >> I I would call it that. Yeah. I had no idea that that's what it was obviously at the time, but yes, I would call it that. So, a lot of people suffer from codependency, not knowing. Not knowing. They're oblivious to it. They're just I am me. I'm a good person. I'm a I love everything and I love the wife and I love everything. >> But you're codependent. And all of a sudden, you're not attractive anymore. So, what you noticed is that uh what is codependency? Codependency is a lack of self. um you know you're lacking self-love, self-preservation, self uh >> self-esteem. >> Yeah. >> So what you did with radical responsibility is that you built your self-esteem. >> Yeah. >> You became self-aware and automatically you became attracted. >> Yeah. Instead of looking to mushki to fulfill me, right, in any way, emotionally, sexually, like instead of looking outside of self, I just I made a big U-turn and I said, >> "Okay, like what whatever you're looking for, >> it cannot be dependent on something outside of self." Because one day you're on a high and then one day you're on a low. Mushki approves of you. You feel like a million bucks. I'm being the best husband in the world. Mushki gives you like a slight look from the corner of eye and all of a sudden I'm devastated. All of a sudden, my insides crumble and now I like I go to work and I can't even concentrate on my work because she pulled away some of her love, which probably wasn't even actually what was happening. It was just that she was hurt or, you know, or or feeling, you know, sad about something or >> or even upset, right? But what I what I realized was is that my I was so tethered to to the way that she felt about me and thought about me that if she was okay with me, I was okay with me. If she was not okay with me, I wasn't okay with me. I was like lost without her approval. Right. >> And I was like, that can't be that can't be right. That can't be healthy. Like, how could I how could I live my life like that? So, I started to I started to pull back and and it really didn't feel good to her. I'm sure it sent off a lot of alarms in our system because we were used to this dance. There was like an agreement, this silent agreement that I'm going to chase you and you're going to you're going to service me in this way and I'm going to service you in this way and then we can all feel good about ourselves. But the moment that I actually said like, wait a second, this isn't really working. This is like a false it's like a mirage. It's it's a it's an illusion of love. It's an illusion of safety, but it's not real. I'm not really safe because the second that external safety is pulled away from me, I dissipate. I crumble. So, obviously, it's not real. So, I started to turn more toward myself, which meant I had to kind of pull a little bit away from her and her influence, which definitely sent alarms off and I think was part of what precipitated some of those proceedings. >> But, >> it was it was a necessary step in my in my becoming was to say like I am who I am because I am who I am. I'm not I'm I am not I because you are you. I am I because I am I. And only from that place can I actually be in relationship with a you. There is no you. >> And that's and that's attractive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. As far as your wife goes, while you were working on yourself, did she have to do any work on herself to really get what you're doing or uh you know, so this becomes a healthy relationship or she was so-called healthy from before and you were just the one who was dragging everything down? >> Excuse me. Oh my god, I love that question. I needed to get into it. I I couldn't let it go. That's such a that's such a great question and it hits upon something that I'm actually very passionate about. >> I think that the premise was that she was like the healthier one which which actually was part of what kind of drove me mad in the beginning like >> right >> um the idea that like I'm the one who needs all the healing and like there's not like it's like that really doesn't feel safe. It's very very scary. It's extremely vulnerable place to be like everything's on me, right? And that's what I was resisting till I came around to radical accountability and then everything shifted. But I think the premise was that like I was the problem, right? That she was healthy and integrated and I was the problem. And again, my mind wanted to control that narrative and resist it at all costs, you know, almost to to to divorce. Um, but I don't think she So, did she have to do work? I think that she did. I don't think that her work was as conscious or as intensive as my work was. And I don't think that it needed to be. I don't think that it needed to be. >> But it was for sure not your job to monitor it. >> 100%. 100%. I I I looked at it like that. I literally like looked at it like there was no her. Like I I like there's just me and my own becoming and and everything that she is is just there in service to my own, you know, it's like uh it's like, you know, it says in the Torah that Hashem created a helpmate for Adam as a aerd, right? Like as a helpmate against him. What do you mean against him? You mean to help me to support him? Right? >> What was what's this against him? >> Right? >> This seems like a really not attractive way to set up marriage from the very first relationship. >> But actually, that's exactly what it is. And this comes to the masculinity and femininity is like she is your helpmate. But how how does she help you? >> How does she support you? How does she help you to become the truest most real authentic version of yourself? By being kai, >> right? By bringing out and and and refining you. >> Yeah. But how does that happen? You would think, oh, well, help help me heal. It sounds like a very loving romantic proposition. No, how does she help you? What is the ultimate way that she helps you? >> By opposing you. >> It's it's it's not the areas where she's like, "Honey, I love you so much. You're the best husband. You're the most handsome guy. I would never want to be with any other man." Right? It's actually when she's like, >> "No, this is not okay." All the areas where she says like, "I am not okay with what's going on. This doesn't feel good to me. I don't like the way that you're showing up." That's where she is your greatest support because that's going to get you to the deepest level of your own becoming through friction, through opposition, not through being a yes woman who says, "Honey, whatever you say, whatever you like. Anything you do to me or say to me is fine with me. I never get upset about anything." Like that's not going to >> You just have to be very open to hear what she is saying instead of defending. Like you said before and become defensive, >> right? So that's that's a that's a whole right mentality shift and understanding that like whatever is happening here, I'm not a victim to it. It's not like, "Poor me, I married this crazy psychopathic who's yelling and screaming. I'm just going to block everything out because, you know, because she because there's no truth here." No, it's like, "Wait a second. What's in it here for me? If I understand that everything is put here for me, everything is all being divinely ordained for me specifically and uniquely, orchestrated and designed by the highest level and most intelligent designer for my own benefit." Well, then of course I have to be open to it. Of course, I have to open my eyes. Of course, I have to my ears and open my heart because it's all here for me. >> You're touching a very something very very important which is spirituality and believing in Hashem because I was going to ask you later how this how you bring that in because that is a tremendous effect on this whole thing. But what I see is the gift that you have that the gift that you got not only to find yourself was also that your wife was open to understanding and giving you a chance. Uh because there are people who are like, you know what, I'm done. I mean, you want to fix yourself on your own now. I am done. >> Yeah. Well, she did say that. >> Yeah. But but but here you still have the bunch gave you a gift that you found yourself and they had a koak and the dance to do it and also a wife >> which a real Isaac and neg. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> yeah. What you're saying is true. And you know like you were saying about not just relying on on like I I you know right like I I made myself and >> it's true like there are many messengers along the way. You know there are people who played um supportive roles >> along the way and and by the way some of those people played supportive roles by playing very unsupportive roles. >> Correct. >> Right. They were they were thinking that they were helping but they weren't helping. Ultimately, everyone who came along, whether what they did on the surface hurt me in the moment, ultimately every single one of those messengers were messengers from Hashem to help guide me into myself and through that relationship with self back into the relationship with my wife and keeping my family together. >> Right. So, so, so you're talking about humbleness. >> Yeah. >> Um, so it seems like in the beginning you were resisting >> big time, >> but is it the filing for divorce, the actual action of filing for divorce that put you into that humbleness of looking into yourself? because that is a level you know to to really you know a person has a has dignity and uh you know I'm doing this for a lot of years and I have a whole list of accomplishments don't push me around you know >> right totally >> totally so so to really surrender the way you did that >> is is that shook your foundation >> yeah the the answer to that question is is that it didn't come with her filing for divorce that surrender that you're talking about I already had entered into that space very deeply and profoundly >> before she filed for divorce But she she had told me her intention to file for divorce you know many times and there were there were times where you know it was a lot there was a lot of fluctuation a lot was in flux but so it wasn't yeah when I tell the story it's like my wife my wife filed for divorce it's like that's that's where like the movie starts kind of but but no the truth is that I was already on a very deep and profound journey >> planting seeds from before. Oh yeah, including the spirituality you speak of which was really at the foundation of that. >> But at that point, let me just touch on this. On that point, uh the things were not going well according to her, >> right? >> Was there not a lot of spirituality involved? Was it missing? Was was there a void of of spirituality in the marriage? >> Um that's a really good question. My gut is to say that yes, because I think that there can always be more, but I don't think that that was the issue. Um there's no question that I've grown spiritually. There's no question that I've learned how to pray. I mean, >> and that helps a lot. >> Oh, it it definitely I mean I before this situation, before me being separated from my wife and going through this, like like there was a there was this one memory I have specifically where I was like in my Talison film like on the floor like Arab Shabas like crying my eyes out. I'd never ever done that before in my entire life. But the question is, were you crying um because you needed something like give me give me or get me out of this or you were crying for connection and saying to yourself, I want to find myself. >> It was both. I I understood that that the only way I was going to get to the first thing was through the second thing. So, it was really both. >> But I would say a deep understanding. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very uh very beautiful nuance you brought out there for sure. But what I'm saying about that is like had I not been in the situation, I never ever would have called out Tashm in that way. So even though I was always a very spiritual person, there's levels, right? It's it's it it never ends. >> And I'm sure the gratitude is was not the same the way it is right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I was a lot more in like complaining 100% [snorts] where >> where I was even though like on the outside you might see like a lot of gratitude cuz I was definitely very like a very like alive and vibrant person, >> right? >> But >> in a real pania stick away like you feel you got your life back. You really got a gift. >> Yeah. >> This is something that came from from a different place. >> Yes. This is a uh one time. >> Yeah. So, I have the humility to know that it came from a quote unquote different place. But I also want to be super careful with the different place because the it's not really a different place. It's actually the the new SA is actually the old SA. Um but with a lot of my defensiveness removed and my my need to be right and to prove something. So, it's it's actually where I found it was inside. And I I make a I'm specifically pointing this out not to mince words, but because I really think that that's really what the main teaching is for men is to realize like no Tadic is going to bring it to you. No Rebe is going to drop it on your head. Sadic is not going to sprinkle, you know, pixie dust and magically make you like a masculine man and show up in your life in a new way. It's it's not outside of self, right? It's not outside of your reach. Don't beg Hashem to come and rescue you. When Hashem's like, "I gave you inside of yourself as you are right now. Every single power that you need to become the man that you're meant to become. All the ingredients are baked in from the start. Now, you might not recognize the ingredients. The ingredients might be mixed up. You might be in denial of some of them, but it's not out it's not outside of self. >> It's not outside of self. That's the to me that's like the most main teaching to men. And the most empowering thing is that whatever you're looking for, it's inside of you. >> Of course, >> no one's coming to your rescue. No rabbi is going to have some sort of beautiful advice that's going to make everything click for you and then all of a sudden you're going to become that masculine man. No, that's just you giving up more power, which for many men is the reason why they're in the situation in the first place is they're giving up power. And by the way, that power might not even be to rabbi. That power might be to their wife like it was for me. I wasn't giving up my power. Rabbi was giving up to my wife. It's like I don't want this. Don't give up your power to me. Don't you're not doing me any favors. Don't Don't give up your power to me and then resent me when I don't take away all your pain and make you know and never call you out and share my opinion about the relationship with you. That's not an agreement I'm willing to do. Don't do me any favors. Take your power back. Right? Men are like, "My wife doesn't want me to have power." No. No, she does. Actually, more than anything, what she wants is for you to have power. That's [clears throat] what she wants. >> She doesn't want you to give up your power. And the last person she wants you to give up your power to is to her, >> right? That's the scariest thing for her as a woman, as in the feminine. Don't don't don't don't don't do this and then say it's for me that you're doing it. You're not doing it for me. You're giving up your power because you're scared to be in your power. You're afraid of your own power and truth. So, you're dumping everything on me. But don't and certainly don't then blame me when your life doesn't work out the way that you thought it would if you give up your power. It's never going to be what your heart really wants when you give up your power. It can't. >> Right. So, what is uh explain masculinity and femininity? Who is what's the positions that that people are mixing up? >> Yeah. So, masculinity and femininity is energy and every single man and every single woman has masculine and feminine in them just as every single fiber of creation has it. These are energies. >> Uh understanding the energies, >> right? >> How is it misunderstood? >> Yeah. >> Well, I don't even know if it's well, in many ways it's misunderstood, but I think there's a more primary I don't I don't even think it's so much that how is it misunderstood? I think it's like people don't even know what it is. Like it's not it's not they have a a a conception and their conception is off. They're just like they have no idea like what what it is. >> So what is it? >> Yeah. So there are attributes there are qualities to masculine energy and there are qualities to feminine energy. And the point isn't well if you're a man you got to be masculine and if you're a woman you got to be feminine. >> You're your own person Joe. You can be whoever you want to be. Like it's it's your choice. >> Yeah. >> You want to embody your feminine that's your choice. You want to embody your masculine that's also your choice. Now what I see and it mirrors my journey is that many many people got into a relationship and the man is embodying one of the poles. So you have masculine and feminine and it's polarity. There's there's a polarity. There is a a tension. There is basically a difference between what is masculinity and what is femininity. And the man comes into the marriage and he is embodying feminine >> energy >> energy and attributes and and the woman is very often it's actually it's wild actually the degree to to how often this this flip exists from the outset of relationships and the woman is firmly in her masculine. So that means that the the the woman is initiating. Initiation is a masculine feature. It's a masculine. >> It belongs on the other side. >> It belongs on this side. Well, again, so when I when I say belong, I want to I want to just be clear like it's if if you want it to be that way. Like if you're in a relationship and your wife is embodying her masculine and you're embodying your feminine and it's working for you, like show me a situation where you good for you. Like enjoy. Like what's the problem? >> But what I find is that it almost almost always ends up as a problem. Sooner or later, the woman is tired and exhausted and fed up from being in her masculine, >> right? We see it in finances sometimes that that she takes on the different role. >> Yes, for sure. >> You see it that >> and you see it in personal relationships as well. >> Totally. That that was in my relationship 100%. Where my wife managed the finances, budgeted the books. I mean, we'd go out to dinner and it was like, who was deciding if we were getting steak and wine or like the more expensive dinner? She was the one deciding. Can you imagine how unattractive that is for a woman going out with a man? He's like, I don't know if we could order the expensive steak. It's like I don't know. What's the budget? Do we have it in, you know, can we do it? So the roles were were completely changed. >> Completely reversed. And now Oh, yeah. Now they're totally flipped. >> Yeah. >> Totally flipped. >> Now, where do we learn these uh energies from our parents or this is just innate that we have this and and the the masculinity? Where does a a boy or a man learn this nature? [clears throat] Are you asking where does he learn how to be in healthy masculinity and embodied? >> Well, for the most part, >> he doesn't really have places and opportunities to do that. And that's a obviously a big challenge >> because we don't look at our parents. >> Well, some people might have a father who definitely embodies his masculine more and a mother who embodies her feminine more. But yeah, if you were raised with a mother who's firmly in her masculine and a father who's firmly in his feminine. Now, by the way, the father could be a billionaire. >> Yeah. And he could still be in feminine. >> Yeah. And he could be totally and he could be the sole provider and yet when he comes home and his wife gives him one look, right? Like the end of it, >> he loses himself. Exactly. and he and he doesn't know who he is and he doesn't know what to be and he can't make any decisions and he has no vision for his family. He has no vision for his life. He has no vision for his kids. You know, she gets to decide where which state we're going to buy the second or third home in. So, it's not about like you say, well, this guy, I mean, look, he you know, he's he's such an honorable man. I mean, he has 300 employees as the CEO of his company. Fine. Yeah. In his workplace, he might be embodying his masculine, but when he comes home, he's the wife to his woman. So, it's fluid, >> right? >> So, where does it really come from? I mean, yeah, like most things, it really comes from our early childhood development. >> What happens if uh if a uh if a if a boy or a or a girl um has absent parents and they didn't learn anything, so they never saw masculinity, femininity. What happens to a young person like that who gets married? I mean, I I think we see all of the major struggles that people have when they either have completely absentee parents or parents who are there but are either completely imshed with their children or are abusive or don't know how to separate themselves from their children and realize that their children are their own people and to let them be and grow into who they want to be. I mean, we're all >> It's catastrophic. >> Yeah, it's it is it's catastrophic. It is. It's uh it's every everything that we're seeing in family life today is basically because of that you know now how does a person find his masculinity he says you know what I don't like what I see what what is he supposed to do where is he start where does he get the awareness yeah what I'm going to say is is kind of paradoxical which which is really the truth of all of healing and all of life but we can separate them a little bit but basically The to me what comes up immediately when you ask that the essence of that is stopping to look outside of himself. Look inside. >> It really doesn't matter your circumstances on the outside. >> It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because all of those circumstances are only there. All of the hoopla, all the chaos, all the moving parts on the surface are all there just so that you should become a more true and more real, more authentic and honest person. And you have to learn how to navigate it. Whatever comes your way, you have to navigate it from the inside. Take the messages. >> Here's the thing. You don't have to do it alone. A lot of men think masculinity means doing alone. >> And that's actually, I think, part of the struggle is like, you don't have to do it alone. You really don't. But then they're like, well, then it's non masculine because I'm relying on brotherhood. And we're like, "No, there's a very big difference between giving up your power to others to make decisions for you because you're too afraid to fail, right, to get it wrong versus looking toward other people for insight, guidance, support, feedback. That is not only okay, it's extremely critical for a person's for for for the health of a person to be part of community, to be part of people who you can be vulnerable in front of, share your true colors, what's really going on, and receive feedback." So, what's the difference? What's the difference? I'll tell you what the difference is. The difference is whether you need it or not. Whether you need it or not. Do I like feedback? I love feedback. If you give me a compliment, Joe, I'm going to take it. I'm going to smile at you. I'm look you right in the eye. I'm going to say thank you. You know why? Cuz compliments feel good to me. I love compliments. I love positive feedback. But if you didn't give it to me, I'm going to be totally okay. I might want your feedback, but I don't need it. What does it mean I don't need it? I am totally okay moving on and being who I am even if you don't say to me sad do you know really good podcast episode one of my best like you know like even if you thought it was horrible like it would feel nice if you thought it was a great session but I'm not I'm not dependent on I'm not walking out of here and making my matsas my okayess my truth dependent on what Joe thinks >> yeah on anyone else >> on anyone anything outside of self but but here's the paradox right it's like okay well then but your support Yeah. No, you have to look inside. In other words, I'll tell you a story actually. I think it really highlights it. But I mean, it's it's it's I actually pulled it out of my phone to read this text exchange that I had, but the somebody was referred to me by a client and a client who I helped a lot. And uh you know, when you get a referral like that, you just assume like a person knows, you know, the modality more or less. Like you got somewhat of a download. You know, you're coming to like, you know, a ninja. and um and he reached out and we were moving forward to schedule a call and then he said actually you know what can you this guy was basically on the verge of divorce. His wife was you know threatening divorce and you know or or they were about to get separated. He had had a young child and he said um okay cool you know yeah I want to move forward but hey do you mind just talking to my rabbi first? My rabbi you know like can you just can you just talk to him to make sure that this is aligned for me? And I told him no. I said no. I said, "You can have the call with me. You could check in with yourself about what you feel, and then you could take my our conversation to your rabbi or to anyone else you want, and you could ask for feedback and for guidance. >> But what you're asking me to do, I didn't say these words, but what he's asking me is he's asking for his rabbi >> to be his gatekeeper of what is and isn't for him." What he's basically saying is, "I don't trust myself." Which is okay, by the way. I didn't I didn't trust myself either at >> the beginning, for sure. But what I was giving him was was $50,000 or actually priceless but let's call it $50,000 worth of advice in a free text exchange where I basically told him I said don't give up your power not to your rabbi not to your wife and not to me. You can trust yourself to check in with yourself and see what feels align and what doesn't. And if you need outside support and outside guidance at that point you could turn for outside support and guidance and then again check back in with yourself. It could be you think one way and you go to your rabbi and your rabbi says, "Oh no, this Saudi guy, you know, he's too spiritual. He's too out there. Don't go talk to him." And you check in with yourself and say, "You know what? No, I had an hour consult with Saudi and actually this feels really resonant and I feel like I could really take what he has to share with me and apply it in my life." This guy, the very reason why he's in the situation that he's in, that he's being referred to me in the first place, is because he's giving up his power. >> So what am I going to do? Take more of his power away and say, "Yeah, sure. I'll talk to your rabbi." No, I'm just misleading you. I'm going to give you the medicine up front. You know what the medicine is? The medicine is you can trust in yourself. Even if it feels like you can't, you can. And even if it's going to hurt so badly and you're going to be in so much pain and dissonance and pulling out your hair because you're not sure what to do, sit through the discomfort and guess what? It gets easier and easier and easier. >> And then you find, what do you find on the other side of that? That you are your own guru. You are your own rebi. >> Of course, >> that's it. >> The re the rabbi was his crutch and he was like relying on the rabbi. >> Yeah. Um, let me ask you between those groups and those couples that you see, um, what's the biggest wound you would say that men carry with themselves >> that they don't want to admit? >> Without overthinking it, I'll tell you just immediately what comes to me >> is their [clears throat] sexuality. >> Wow. How is that? Because I feel like as much as many men might accept many parts of themselves, their sexuality they have not accepted or not integrated fully and they're on some level at war with that part of themselves. >> What is their sexuality mean? >> It means their aliveness. They're they're not expressing [clears throat] what they want or what they feel or what this is something that they they they they put to the back burners. You mean between couples they're not going to share? Is that what you >> No, first and foremost in themselves. Yeah, of course it expresses itself in the dynamic in the relationship where they can't ask for what they want, where they can't be assertive, where they >> but basically it's like there's a part of them that they see as >> unclean, as impure, as dirty on some level. >> Yeah. >> And uh there's reasons for for why. Some people have actual experiences and sometimes it's totally pure benign experiences of just curiosity as a child and exploring sex and sexuality and like and basically they've somehow interpreted that there's something wrong with me. Like this part of me has to be kept in check. And now what's happening is they're living their life on the surface and they're going to work and they're doing the li thing but there's this part of them that they're using all this energy constantly to keep at bay because they're afraid >> that if this part were to come out it would overtake them. They wouldn't know what to do with it. And you're saying they're not living life to the fullest. >> You can't live life to the fullest if you're not accepting that part of yourself if you're oppressing it. >> Wow. Like what kind of examples do we have that people are like, you know, what are they staying away from? Like, you know, where do you see they're stuck when it comes to these things? >> Yeah. Well, because sexuality is really life force energy. It expresses itself in every single aspect of a person's life. When a person doesn't say, "This is what I want." Right. >> Right. and I am going to pursue this. I want this and I am committed to getting this thing because they're repressing the part of them that has desire, >> right? >> And and a person thinks, "Oh, that that that has nothing to do with the rest of life. It's just sexuality." No, desire, it's connected. >> It it's it's just a fluid spectrum that plays itself out through every single aspect literally of your life and relationships. So, if you're repressing the part of you and you think there's something basically shameful about you and your desire, then when it comes time to speaking your opinion or being assertive or let's say somebody disrespects you, maybe it's even your wife, right? >> Or your boss or your colleague >> and now you just you will suppress you'll suppress it. You'll shrink and you'll find a way cuz cuz you don't actually own your bigness. You don't own your fullness. You don't own your aliveness. If you fully embrace your essence, your your sight, your foundation, your aliveness, your life force energy, then it's going to express itself in every conversation. It's going to express itself in the way that you walk, in the way that you talk, in the way that you allow disrespect or put boundaries on disrespect, on how much you say, you know what, I don't care that everyone around me is saying that, oh, just take the out. You know, your wife is filing for divorce. Take the out. Like, good riddance. Move on. Right? No, I know something deeper and more true for myself. And I'm willing to to to identify it. I'm willing to admit it. I'm willing to embrace it. I'm willing to pursue it and to stay committed to it even when and especially when others are telling me I'm on the wrong path and that you don't get it. No, I'm so connected with my deepest life force energy that I'm not going to be, you know, thrown off or swayed by by by this person's opinion or that person's opinion. So until I fully embrace all of my parts and again people have an easier time with some of their parts but the sexuality I find is like the the most important part and that if you were to do the work around that almost everything else would come easier but that's the one part that everyone avoids. >> Wow. Now how do you cure that traditional talking therapy? How do you address that? >> Yeah. Well not through talk therapy. M >> um I think that it comes down to having dedicated time and space to go inside yourself with curiosity. Curiosity means that I'm willing to see and feel what comes up. Um and I'm going to do my best to suspend judgment and criticism of those parts because those parts of myself are there and they're not going away. >> Yeah. >> And all they want is to be known by me. That's all they want. They just want to be seen and known by me. So it means having dedicated time. We could call it therapy. Some people are able to do it among their group of friends, which is, you know, a rarity unfortunately, but it's definitely possible. Where you have a place where you feel totally safe and held to go and explore whatever comes up. In other words, I'm going on this journey that I know that there will be things that come up that are going to scare me, that are going to gross me out, that I might be disgusted by, that I might recoil from, I might tighten up to, right? and try to try to keep at bay because I don't want to feel them and I don't want to identify with them. But I'm going to go on a journey to discover what's there because I want that no part of me should be left behind. I don't want to be a fragmented person anymore. I want at every single part of me, >> not just the pretty loving, you know, celebrity. >> Yeah. Let's get in there. Let's really get in there and and and and feel everything that I've been avoiding feeling. And then all of a sudden, that part gets released from exile. It's no longer an exile. It's redeemed. And you're bringing him home. You're bringing her home to be at home with you. And now she doesn't have to be on the outside in the cold kicking and screaming, clawing at the door, banging on the window when you're trying to go to sleep or trying to concentrate on work. >> It frees up psychic energy. >> You can just bring these parts on board and integrate them. And what's interesting is that I speak to a lot of people and they would love to be in a group like that, you know, like an intimate group of uh men who would come together and really spill the beans and really get into it like you just described. But it's very hard to to uh find a group like that and organize a group like that. And um also the trust level they have a problem to open up you know till you get together and you really the way it works is that you start you know small and then it becomes bigger and deeper. Is that how it builds? Because how do you build those? You got to be extremely humble and extremely trusting that what happens here stays here you know. >> Yeah. How do how do how does someone uh you know who is looking for a group for that a group like that can find one? >> How could they find one? >> Yeah. >> Um well they could come join my group. >> You make you have men's group who who are just that's what you do. >> Yeah. >> Walk us through how does that look? >> Yeah. Well, first of all, what you're saying is very very true. Um and actually that's it. It it the exact place of resistance is the exact place of the breakthrough. So for people who are like, "Oh, you know, I've never done anything like this or like I'm concerned I might meet someone from my community or like I've never ever been this vulnerable before." It's like I look them right in the eye. I'm like, >> and I've seen this invariably people who are most afraid to join the group, >> they benefit the most 100%. But is there times that these people found it uh you know being betrayed or negative? Um you know did they have bad experiences that sometimes you know you can't control another person's mind or mouth you know uh is there sometimes that uh because what you want to do is to get this thing out of their head that you're 100% know that what's going to happen over there stays there. >> Yeah. So you can never So even though everyone signs confidentiality agreement before they like when they sign up they they check off a bunch of boxes and it's about the respect and holding space for others and speaking from your own feelings and confidentiality. Of course that's a foundational for this work. >> But let's be honest when you open up in front of anyone you are taking that risk. >> That's a risk you take. It's it is a risk but like every risk you have to calculate it against the benefit. What's the benefit? What am I gaining by opening up? What am I gaining by finally stopping to hide myself from other people? And and what you gain is you can't even put it in words. It's it's it's infinity. You gain the self. So, is there a risk? There is a risk. It's not like, oh, there's no risk here because we signed a confidential agreement. 100%. Somebody could take it and they could go and they could first of all, no one no one who's in a group like this has any interest because remember they themselves. But, but but reality is >> Yeah. But the reality is, is it possible? Of course, it's possible. Has it happened in my experience in my group? No, it has not. Thank God. But I don't I don't anticipate it ever happening. I don't I don't see any reason for it to ever happen. >> Right? >> People This is what I see with human beings. I believe that the the human system moves towards MS. I believe that the natural movement of a human being is toward truth. People want to come and in your words spill the beans. People want to unburden themselves of the secrets that they've been carrying on their own. Why should they carry it on their own? It's not for them to carry on their own. And by the way, brother, the thing you're carrying, I'm also carrying. It's okay. You're not so unique in that way >> and that happens in the groups. Now, like I asked you before, what is uh what are most women's wounds that they complain about and uh they don't talk about it? >> Yeah. Again, immediately just without even thinking about it, what comes to me is like feeling like they're too much like like >> they're too much of a burden >> that Yeah. that that what they're experiencing on the inside that their feelings, the fluctuation of their feelings, the intensity of their feelings is is too much for the world to handle. >> And how do you explain them differently? Is that is that also because they're not in their inner self? Um, is it because they're not in their inner self? Well, in a way, what what's happened is that they've internalized the world's reactions to to their feelings, which they've been made essentially to feel crazy because one moment they're happy and the next moment they're sad, right? Or in one moment they're feeling extreme feelings of pleasure and joy, but they're also crying, right? It's like to the masculine mind, to the masculine world where things are more um defined and definitive and clear and structured, it's like, how could you be having an orgasm, right, at the height of pleasure, but also crying at the same time? Like, oh, I must have done something wrong, right? you know, you must be in so much deep pain. No, a woman can experience like the the deepest throws of joy and pleasure and also her heart be breaking wide open and and not not only can she, but that's not that's not a contradiction and that's often the one place where it can happen, >> you know, like to the fullest degree. >> So, so yeah, they basically internalized the conditioning which from a very young age which says like make up your mind, figure it out, like decide what you want and get back to me, right? That's many men and and and the masking of the universe basically sends that signal to women and to the feminine like >> be masculine and then we can have a conversation. It's like no, I want to just be in flux and in flow, >> you know, >> and in truth, I'm not even asking anything of you. Meaning, I don't even need something from you. I don't need you to give me something. I don't need you to fix something from me. I don't need you to take something away from me. All I really desire is to be felt. Can you feel me in my process? Can you ride my waves of emotions with me instead of wronging me for having these emotions? And then everything just it's like the waves in the ocean. They roll and they roll in and they roll out and there's no two waves are ever the same and they're beautiful. And what would the world be without them? So this is where this is where a man stepping up to the plate is like if he can be that framework, that structure and hold the space for that fluidity, then the femininity stops opposing the masculinity because the masculinity is in service to the femininity. >> Right? What does a healthy uh feminine look like in the relationship? >> I think it starts with a woman like really feeling her feelings and owning her feelings. Um, [clears throat] even when she's not being met with that framework that says you're totally 100% safe here to to fully feel your feelings, right? In other words, don't cancel yourself out. Stay with the feeling. Don't say, "Well, my husband doesn't have the space for it and he hasn't held space and I don't feel totally safe. So therefore, I'm going to repress myself and I'm gonna hide myself and I'm gonna shame myself and wrong myself for these feelings." So it means it means staying in connection with for a woman it means staying in connection with her body, staying in connection with her desire, staying in connection with her pleasure and with her play. Now in relationship where there isn't safety, it's very very hard. So So what do you do? That's this is this is the teachings and this is the work and this is the gold standard. I'm I want to be [clears throat] clear. I feel silly saying it, but we always put these caveats on things. We're not talking about a situation where a woman's in danger. She's in an abusive relationship and she has to find actual safety for herself before you do any of this work, right? >> You can't do this deep inner work which requires patience and compassion and gentility when you're being battered over the head, >> right? Ask you about personality disorders. So let's say if a man or a woman wants to work on masculinity and femininity like you said before like your story um and here she finds a she's living with a narcissist or she's living with a psychopath and you see these patterns. It's it's clear you know it's it's it that person is shot closed hollow inside doesn't he's not open for ideas the opposite of you described with your story that I got this this awakening I had the pain was more than you know it was too much a psychopath doesn't feel any pain you cannot win the fight with a psychopath >> you know what does a what does a person do and this happens all the time. Is there a place where you need to call it quits and say to yourself, I'm living with the psychopath. I need to go. >> Well, yeah. Certainly, if somebody, you know, I I I'm not a uh a diagnostician and um and I generally in my own work with self and with others endeavor to not be to to not pathize. But yeah, let's just say for the sake of this conversation, we believe there's something called a psychopath. And this is the definition of a psychopath. Yeah, like trying to step into your femininity to like shift the dynamic is just you gaslighting yourself and you're you're you're torturing yourself. >> No, there's no point in that. So when you notice, let's say couples come, >> these are two people who have a yearning to become better or even if you have let's say only a men's group and they're working on themselves. What about the other partner when it comes to personality disorders? It goes back to what you were saying before. I'm working on myself anyway. >> Yeah. >> That's where your focus is. >> Yeah. >> And you will automatically feel out if you're dealing with a personality disorder. And if you know that the emiss with you and you're doing what you're doing 200% >> it's going to dissolve by itself. Is that's what it is. >> You said it. In other words, the the focusing on the the um the diagnosis, right, and pathologizing the other person and putting a label on it is not it's a total distraction because sooner or later if you if you commit yourself your your journey to self, no matter what, you'll end up with self. And along the way, sooner or later, it's going to become clear and obvious where where where the partner is, like what's where this is going. >> Yeah. What's what's actually going on? >> It's actually it's actually clarity. It's a test. You see, when you're not working on yourself and you're living with a narcissist or a psychopath, you're both in turmoil. They're you're both going crazy. But if you can take yourself out and you can become clear and we're clearly working on ourselves, it's just going to come out like the sun. >> Yeah. There's no loss. That's why I tell people investing there will there. It's impossible for there ever to be loss if you're investing in yourself. That's the one that's the one investment that can never like it will always return dividends. You know, it's there's no way to lose on going all in on yourself. This point though about like narcissists and psychopaths, >> you know, you know, people talk about it a lot and throw throw around those words. I'm not saying you're throwing around those words. I don't think that you are, >> but >> um >> I think that it's just a for for many people, it's just a massive distraction >> and it's just a a mechanism in in many cases, it's a mechanism for people to feel safe. Like, you know, I I think that that's very personally like my wife called me a narcissist >> many many times. >> Um, and you know, do I have some narcissistic characteristics or tendencies? Sure. I mean, I think all people do. But but very often in a in a in a in a heightened like marriage situation where one person's feeling very very very unsafe and insecure, people move very very quickly to like defining the other person >> believing that that will give them some sense of safety. It's like I read on Instagram the top 10 characteristics of a narcissist and they're looking at their partner and they're like checking off every box. Meanwhile, their partner's like on Instagram also and like reading, you know, 10, you know, 10 characteristics of borderline personality disorder. Oh my god, my wife has every single one of these 10. And it's like, is that how is that actually helpful? Like, is is there is there like a reality called borderline personality disorder? No, there's no reality called borderline personality disorder. It's a it's a it's a um a confluence of symptoms that we group together because in our human minds, we we are we are thinking beings. We are sentient beings and we try to put words and categories into things or categories of things to be able to understand things. So we know how to relate to them and that's important and we need words and we need labels 100%. But if I was seeing somebody, a man, and they were saying, "My wife has has borderline personality disorder, or she's such a narcissist," I would try to gently help them to make a U-turn and look inside and see like, "Okay, well, what is it about those characteristics that are triggering? Like, what is it about that feels so unsafe for you versus labeling a whole human being who's going through an extremely trying and difficult time, right, and just say like, "She's a psychopath." And again, from the outside, I could have said that about my wife and my friends could have been like, "Dude, get out as soon as you can." And you know what? No, I saw past that. The fact that she was screaming and yelling, the fact that sometimes she was on the floor crying and all this stuff, it's like, "Yeah, because she's a woman in pain." If you could start with the assumption that when somebody's doing something, it's coming from a place of pain, then yeah, they're exhibiting this this um um symptom and that symptom, but does that make them x, y, or z? No. This is a woman who is in extreme pain. She's having a human experience. The fact that she's crying her eyes out or the fact that she's yelling and screaming at her husband, does that mean she's crazy? No, it doesn't. There's there's something here that's really, really, really, really deeply hurting her. And can I try to figure out what it is? Cuz if I start with the assumption that there's truth in everything and that certainly there's truth in this woman in front of me, even though maybe nine out of 10 things she says from a factual perspective about me might not actually be true, but where's the one where's the 10% truth in it? Where is the trigger? >> Yeah, there's truth in in here. Can I find the truth? Can I seek the truth? It's so easy to take the nine the 90% nine parts and throw it out and say it's false. That there's no on that. That's the easiest thing to do. Oh, a narcissist borderline personality disorder. And by the and what a poor poor woman. She's really really struggling. She needs some serious deep compassion. Doesn't mean I have to stay married to her. No blah. >> I'll tell you what I'm hearing. What you're saying you're saying you're coming back to to your foundation. Your foundation is >> don't label. Doesn't really matter if that person is a narcissist and does let's say he is. Let's say the psychopath is but you work on yourself. When you will work on yourself fully and you'll come to that level, things will fall into place. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't you're not the one who has to diagnose the other person as a narcissist. >> Let's say if he is a narcissist and it's true, but you are not the person who has to point fingers. You're not the person who has to diagnose it and then leave you in your comfort zone. You get out of your comfort zone. You work on yourself and things will fall into place because if that person is a psychopath, it will it was just not going to work out anyway. >> Right. And actually by you committing to yourself, it's going to accelerate that process. >> Correct. >> Versus Yeah. versus living outside of self. And >> you're not saying that there is no narcissist. You're not saying there is no psychopath. But what you're saying is in a marriage, I don't want to hear from you labeling the other person. And let's say if you get him out of the way, I'll be fine. Let's work on yourself. And that's what it is, >> right? Like it's like you're paying to be here and sit here and talk with me. Why are we talking about >> talking about another person? >> Where where is the one aspect in you that we can we can help to heal and help to integrate and help to expand and deepen. Right. >> That makes a lot of sense. >> Yeah. It's >> What message do you have for all the men out there? >> I mean, I think I said it, but I'll I'll say it again. I I you have you you're not afraid of your um of your faults and of your weaknesses and of the shame you carry which all inhibit you for sure. They're all real, >> right? >> And they all can be addressed. But actually what you're most afraid of is your power. Men have so much power, but they're afraid to step into it because they're like, "If I step into my power, I might hurt somebody. I might hurt myself. I might distance other people. I might lose friends, might lose family members. If I'm going to step fully and totally into my truth and own it 100%, take radical accountability for it, my whole life is going to change." >> Yeah. >> And I'm scared of that. So, my my message to men is fear not. Fear not. You are powerful. you are much more powerful than you're fully ready to admit to yourself. And don't worry about having it all figured out before you take the first steps. First, commit. Commit. Once you commit, the whole universe is going to bend to aid you in your process of becoming who you're who you truly are. >> Let me ask you, for uh healing, do you recommend any types of therapy like EMDR or um IFS or psychedelics for that matter? >> Yeah. Um, I think all three of those are extremely powerful. When it comes to therapy, I think to me there are many, many modalities and there are a thousand ways to enter the same palace for sure. I really do believe that. >> And yet some doors are wider and uh taller and more expansive or or more beautiful or real. >> Um, so so two things I want to say about one is yes absolutely I would say IFS >> like far and above really any other modality out there. But IFS can include other aspects too like IFS is really in a big way inner child work right. So you can do inner child work without IFS parts work and IFS can include the whole sematic component. So really IFS and sematic work are the two you know top. >> You're a big proponent of that. >> It's huge and and I use that in my practice and and I was in IFS therapy for years and it completely helped me to to transform my life from the inside out. >> Um and psychedelics. Yeah, absolutely. I don't see psychedelics as therapy per se, even though of course it can be therapeutic. I see it as an accelerant to to therapy. So, it's not psychedelics or therapy. It's psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. Um, and when you have the two of them together, that's where the real real magic happens because you have both the light and the vessel. The psychedelics to me is like the light. And it could be very very bright and it could even be overwhelming. But if you have the vessel, if you have the language, if you have the structure or like the inner scaffolding of the deep inner work two together, I mean what you can do is is wild. >> I want to ask you one question about psychedelics since now that I know because I know nothing about it. I just read about it. I did some research about it and it's very popular now and people you know are very much into the psychedelics. But does the psychedelics enhance what's there? Which means if a person has a huge ego, is it enhancing the ego? Um is it is it is it or is it breaking the ego? Is it spiritual? Is it do you find Hashem all of a sudden or is it if it's what you want? It's where your mind is, what it's going to do, it is going to expand. So explain me how it could be negative on one side and positive on the other side or is it if it's done recreationally or is done with a professional. Give us a little idea of what this psychedelics is. >> Yeah. Well, this is this is definitely a huge topic. You're kind of throwing it here and there, but >> we can do we can do a full podcast on psychedelics >> easily and honestly even even on these few questions that you just asked right now like easily. Um to address the last question first of like recreational versus therapeutic. Um I think that that some of those distinctions are a little bit arbitrary and like kind of imposed from the outside in. I think that >> um doing something recreational has therapeutic value. Like if I go to the spa with my friends and we all hang out, we like laugh like little boys and be silly and goofy. Like oh we were at the spa. We were being recreational. We were hanging out. Like >> very therapeutic to go hang out with guys and be silly and and you know just mess around. Like so is there really such a hard line between recreational and and therapeutic. Now essentially what one would say is the is the difference is is intentionality and intentionality is obviously or maybe it's not obvious but I should say it is is extremely important. >> Yeah. But is it is it an escape? Is psychedelics an escape or is work like you do like you say I'm doing the work? >> Psychedelics are any can like to to zoom out very very high they could be anything to anybody. Psychedelics are basically like uh um they're they're they help to manifest the mind and the mind is human consciousness. Consciousness itself is limitless. So as limitless as consciousness is that's as limitless as psychedelic experience can be. >> So is it an escape? The answer is yes and no. It depends who how they're using it where they're using it when >> and when. When is it not an escape? When you do it for healing. >> Well, even that can be an escape. A person could be addicted to the next high of healing and the next breakthrough and maybe avoiding some deeper more less less comfortable work or relying on the psychedelics to do the heavy lifting and having these great revelations of light and feeling while maybe neglecting some of the more what I call manual labor of of like IFS and sematic work where you're actually going into your body and working with your parts. Who is not a candidate for psychedelics? >> It's not for me to say who's not a candidate for it. I think that everyone has their own agency. You know, there's certainly some like um very accepted norms within the psychedelic community of like, you know, for example, somebody with bipolar history in their family or schizophrenia and like and by the way, there are people in in in the opposite camp and now they're saying actually psychedelics might might actually be the thing that could actually cure and and heal the bipolar and the schizophrenia. So, it's >> you're still in the beginning stages, right, of uh knowing research for years and years what this does. Correct. relatively yes but but also no. I mean we have decades and decades of research much of it which has been basically buried in not until the last five years like uncovered like a lot a lot of research extensive extensive research but because of fear and paranoia um and the war on drugs and we've all been affected by it in our relationship to substances. basically all of this had to be like totally hidden and underground and it became taboo and so all of the beautiful studies that could have continued and and deepened got shut off. All government funding was shut off and so on. So >> um I think people have to choose for themselves uh you know and you know what what works for them and what doesn't. Again there are some like pretty accepted norms in the community but even those are being challenged. So >> I hear I got one final question for you. Who's your role model? Who's my role model? Uh well, first of all, the Reba first and foremost. >> Wow. More than >> How did he make such an impact on you? >> He showed me my power. >> He showed me that I have that I that the whole world is here as my as a garden. >> Is there a particular time or something an event that that took you over? >> Uh it's a great question. I'm sure there are numerous numerous um but I think when I started learning the rebasidus and I just it it wasn't like I was like it was all new to me but it wasn't like I was learning anything foreign. I was like okay like this man is articulating what I know in my soul. >> It wasn't like oh let me try this on. Let me like wrap my mind around it. Let me figure out a way to like get it. It was like, "Holy moly, this man is communicating and articulating what my soul knows to be the deepest truth," which I myself didn't have the words for, but when he said it, I I I, you know, I saw it and felt it. >> I want to thank you. I want to thank you for your honesty. Um, and I want to thank you for bringing light, for bringing light to the world. You have a you're also a from, right? >> Absolutely. >> You're this is your job. you found your you found your passion. Um you're bringing light into places where people are afraid to enter. You're releasing people's pain and suffering. So I want to thank you for the work you do and for the lives you touched and and I want to thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasure. It was an awesome conversation we had. Thank you. >> Thank you, Joe. I appreciate all. >> Thank you very much.