What to Do When Your Child — or Even You — Is Being Bullied - Izzy Kalman

And you know, the suicide rate of bullied kids is going up. Year after year, it's going up. And the percentage of kids that shoot up schools is going up all the time. You know, you want to see me defending myself. I am not done. >> But it's a trap. So, you're being picked on. You don't know why they're so mean to you. I'm going to teach you why they're doing it and how to get them to stop. So, in nature, if you attack me, I better get angry at you. I'm going to, you know, really try to scare you off. And if you leave me alone, I'm very happy. But if you're still looking to kill me and I can't escape, I have to have the drive to tear you to pieces before you tear me to pieces. Are you going to like me better if I tell the teacher or the principal? You're going to be mad at me. So, is it going to help if I tell the teacher or the principal on you? It's not going to help. >> So, give us a little bit an insight. Give us just give us a taste, a flavor of how you would approach a child or an adult. How do you build that person up to a point that he should not let himself be bullied? Okay. Today on the struggle podcast, um we go straight into the battlefield. Uh the battlefield where our kids walk into every day, which is uh the classroom. The topic is bullying. We have here with us today Izzy Calman. Um a nationally certified school psychologist and the founder of Bullies to Bodies. Um Izzy has dedicated his life to understand the real dynamics of bullying. This episode is important for every parent and everyone to listen to. Izzy, welcome to the struggle. >> Thank you very much. It's uh I love struggle. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for coming and uh sharing your wisdom. Now before we start, before we even go into anything, um we want to say that um bullying is not only in the schoolyard. Uh adults can bully also. >> So I know that um you have a course that you're giving. You have books that you that you wrote. >> I have books. I have videos. I have >> videos. You have a lot of lectures on this subject. So give us a little bit an insight. Give us just give us a taste, a flavor of how you would approach um a child or an adult for that matter. How do you build that person up to a point that he should not let himself be bullied? >> Okay, I will gladly do that with you and this will be uh the most entertaining and valuable part of this interview. Excellent. >> Uh when I work with somebody, you know, I can help a kid, most kids, very quickly in a couple of minutes, but I like to give them a a deeper understanding of what's going on. So, I have a procedure that really gives the person, whether it's a child or an adult, a basic understanding of human nature, of the dynamics of hostility, and how to make things better. But the first thing I want to know if I'm working with you, I want to know if you're telling the teacher or the principal on other kids. If you say yes, I'll ask you, let's say I'm another kid in school and you bothered me and I tell the teacher or the principal on you and they ask you why you did this to me. Are you going to admit that you're guilty or blame me? Of course. I asked you this before. You'll blame me. Are you going to like me better if I tell the teacher or the principal? You're going to be mad at me. So, is it going to help if I tell the teacher or the principal on you? It's not going to help. But when will you like and respect me more? If I tell the teacher or the principal and you bother me or if I talk to you directly about it, >> of course. Directly. >> Yeah. So, everybody will like and respect you more if you deal with them directly. But don't worry, I'm going to teach you how to how to do it so you don't have to go to the authorities. So, let's say you're being picked on. Let's say your tenure. You want to choose an age? >> Yeah, whatever. >> Okay. Let's say you're 10 and you have uh five kids in in school every day calling you bad names, fat, so ugly, idiot, you know, whatever. Or it could be the same name. And you are getting upset and this is but you know, so I'll talk to you. Uh when did the problem start? How many kids do it to you? How often do they do it to you? What do they do? I want to know exactly what happens to you that you can't stand. After I know the things that they do to you, I ask you, do you want the kids to stop picking on you? Of course. So, I'm going to teach you why they pick on you and how to make them stop. So, should I call you Joe? So, uh, I'm going to play a game with you, Joe. Your job is to insult me. My job is to stop you. But don't let me stop you because if I stop you, I win and you lose. I I I want to backtrack. There's another thing I I teach people before I do this game. I'm going to explain a principle to you that if you understand it properly, it'll help you get along better with everybody in your life. Not only with the kids in school, but with your teachers, your siblings, your parents in the future relationships. Yeah. And this principle is the golden rule. And in Jews knows know this as viaam love thy fellow as thyself. It's been in our Torah for thousands of years. Everybody knows that the golden rule is the formula for harmony. If everybody treated others uh the way you know they want to be treated, if we loved everybody, life would be wonderful. No bullying, no divorce, everybody would get along. So, if we know about the golden rule for thousands of years, why is there still bullying? Why do couples have trouble getting along? By the way, I explained this to older kids. I won't explain this to a six-year-old, but a 10, 11 year old can understand this. >> Um, the reason bullying is still going on is because we don't understand what the golden rule really comes to teach us. Everybody thinks it means that it's important to be nice to people and we shouldn't be mean to people. That's what schools teach kids and parents teach their kids and it only has a limited benefit. Why? We don't need the golden rule to teach us that it's good to be nice to people and it's bad to be mean to people. It's self-evident that it's good to be nice and bad to be mean. The the challenge is what do you do when people are mean to you? That's what bullying is. People are mean to you. That's the part. How do you handle it? >> Yeah. Do you have a hard time knowing what to do when somebody is nice to you? >> No. That's easy. >> It's easy. The hard part is knowing what to do when uh people are mean to you. And the answer of the golden rule is be nice back because you're supposed to love them. Are we supposed to love them only when they're nice? Even when they're mean, we're supposed to love them. Which means we can't be mean back. We're not, you know, the Hill's version of the golden rule is uh whatever is hateful to yourself, don't do to others. That's the whole Torah. Well, if we hate others, being mean to us, we can't be mean back. But this is very hard to do. It is very hard to be nice to people when they're mean to us because it's contrary to our nature. Uh human beings are social creatures. A social creature is an animal that can only survive as a member of a group. Social creatures are biologically programmed for reciprocity. This means I am going to treat you the way you treat me. Okay? >> And if you think about, you'll realize everybody is like that. Except maybe a psychopath or some very autistic people. But if somebody is nice to you, do you feel like being mean back or nice back? >> Of course. Nice. >> If somebody is mean to you, do you feel like being nice back or mean back? >> No. I want to be mean. >> Everybody is like that. We can control it, but our gut instinct tells us to be nice to those who are nice to us and mean to those who are mean to us. Why is everybody like that? It's because we have animal bodies. Are our bodies robots or computers that come out of the factory and are programmed to do whatever the programmers want us to do? >> No bodies. No. >> No. We're animals. We have bones and muscles and blood. We have to eat and sleep like all the other animals. Do animals live in civilization uh with schools and hospitals and police or do they they live in nature? >> Yeah, nature. >> Animals live in nature and our bodies are programmed for life in nature. In nature, life is very dangerous. Creatures eat each other for dinner. >> They don't have supermarkets. They are the supermarket. >> There are no laws against violence. Uh creatures kill each other. No police come along to arrest them. >> Right? In nature, reciprocity is a good policy because let's say you and I live in nature and you're nice to me. It makes sense to be nice back. We'll cooperate. If we cooperate, we'll survive better than if we don't. But if you're mean to me, you're probably trying to kill me. You want to eat me for dinner. What is going to happen in nature if I am nice to you and nice to you and you're trying to kill me? Yeah. The world of nature. You're trying to kill me. I'm nice to you. get killed. >> I'm going to kill get killed like that two >> seconds. >> So in nature, if you're mean to me, I better be mean back to you to stop you from killing me. >> Correct. >> So that's why we are biologically programmed for reciprocity. >> Right? >> Today, we don't live in nature. We don't need each other for dinner. We have laws against violence. We know that we'll get in trouble if we injure somebody. But we're still biologically programmed for reciprocity as though we live in nature. Today, if I live by reciprocity, I give up control over my relationships. I I put you in control and I'll have problems because what'll happen is if you're nice to me, I'll be nice back. You'll be nice back again. We'll get along and be friends. But if you're mean to me, I'll be mean back to you and you'll be mean to me again. We'll be fighting all the time. We'll become enemies. So I tell myself, I don't want enemies. I want people being my friends. I know that just like me, you're biologically programmed for reciprocity. So even if you're mean to me, I am going to be nice back to you. And very quickly, you're going to start being nice to me because you're biologically programmed to treat me the way I treat you. So the golden rule puts me in charge. I lead the way, not you. And if I do it properly, everybody's going to like me. No enemies. Now let me demonstrate it regarding insults because the most common way by far that kids insult you know upset each other in school is by insults and even in other situations you know couples will insult each other criticize each other and even most physical fights begin with insults. So if kids know how to deal with insults it prevents most physical aggression as well. So, I'm going to play a game with you that teaches why they're picking on you and how to make them stop. Your job is to insult me. My job is to stop you. But don't let me stop you or I win and you lose. Do not worry about hurting my feelings. It's make believe. I want you to do a good job. If you don't insult me, well, I'm going to be disappointed. Also, don't work hard. Don't talk without stopping. You'll get tired. Make like a conversation. Give me a chance to answer you. Right. >> Okay. Go ahead, Joe. >> Okay. You are so dumb. You don't know how to read. >> What are you talking about? I'm not dumb. >> Yeah, I heard you and I saw that you can't read. >> I can read. >> No, you're not. You can't read and your books are all ripped. You come every morning with no uh with no books. >> That is not true. And it's not your business. >> I can read. >> You can't read. You never get up to read and then you can't. >> That is not true. I am not dumb. You apologize to me. I'm not apologizing because it's the truth. >> No, it's not. That's bullying. You're not allowed to call somebody dumb. The principal said you're not allowed to call anybody dumb. We had this big assembly, >> but this is the truth. And I'm going to say the truth. You have to say the truth. The truth is that you're dumb. You're stupid. And you have no friends. I'm smarter than you. I'm smarter than you. >> No, you're not. >> Yes, I am. >> Prove it. >> I am. I I'm smarter than you. >> No, you can't. >> I'm not dumb. Don't call me class is laughing. You don't have one friend in this class. That's not true. And everybody wants to play with you in the the outside. >> That is not true. You You apologize to me. >> It's 100% true. And I'm not apologizing. >> You're going to be sorry if you don't apologize. >> Yeah. Let's You want to bring it on? We'll bring it on. I know karate. Yeah. I know karate. I got 15 friends. We'll fight. >> I'm not afraid of your friends. >> Okay. So, let's do it. When? Give me a time and we'll go fight. >> You insult me again. We're going to do it right now. >> Okay. Let's do it. >> I dare you to insult me again. I dare you to >> I'm telling you that you don't have friends and your and your mother is stupid also. >> DON'T TALK ABOUT MY MOTHER. You have no right to talk about my mother. Okay, good job. Uh you did a wonderful job. >> I didn't even know I can insult somebody. So >> yeah, people don't realize, but you did a wonderful job. Uh I tried very hard to get you to stop insulting me. Did I succeed? >> No. >> In this game, was it hard to insult me? >> No. >> Pretty easy. >> Yeah. So, if you want to insult me in this game, if you want to win the game, can I force you to stop insulting me? >> No. >> Because it's only words. It's your mouth and brain. If you want to insult me, go to insult me. You did a super job, Joe. We're going to play the game again. Insult me and don't let me stop you. >> You're dumb and stupid. You can't read. >> That's what you think. >> That's what I know. >> Uh because I h I happen to think you're smart and I've heard you read and you read beautifully. I know how to read and you don't. >> Uh I think you read better than me. >> I do. >> Yeah. >> And I do. And because you're dumb, you can't read. >> I'm smart and I know how to read. >> Yeah. Uh you're smart. I wish I could read. Also, I've always had a problem with reading. And they told me I have a learning disability. >> What does that mean? >> It means that there are certain things that are harder for me to learn how to do. It's like a learning disability. I mean, there are lots of stuff I do great, but reading, my god, reading is so tough for me. >> Right. >> I'm so jealous of everybody who reads well. >> Wow. Okay. So, I didn't know that. I thought you just don't want to concentrate, you know. >> I I really want to read, but it's hard for me. The letters get jumbled when I look at them. It's so hard for me. >> Did you tell your mother to to take you uh you know, to a doctor to doctor? >> I get I get help. You didn't know that I get help in school for reading? >> No, I didn't know. Oh, I thought everybody knew. >> No, nobody knows. >> Oh, wow. I didn't know it was so discreet. >> Yeah. >> Uh, kids would, you know, most kids won't use the word discreet, but I I thought everybody knew. >> No. No. >> I get taken out for resource room, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, I didn't know that. >> Yeah. How would you know? We didn't talk about it, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, >> your job is to insult me. >> Yeah. So, I can't insult you anymore. Well, you stopped insulting me a long time ago. Isn't it harder to insult me this time? >> Right >> now, we played the game two times. Which time was more fun for you? >> First time was supposed to be more fun. >> I mean, was it wasn't it more fun? Yeah. >> Yeah. You were smiling and laughing. You felt so powerful. It felt great. >> Was the second time fun or did you kind of feel bad? >> I started feeling bad. You start feeling bad and it's harder and then you stop and before you know it, we're discussing things and you're not insulting me anymore. >> Who won the game the first time? >> I did. >> Who won the second time? >> You did. >> Which one of us looked like the bigger fool the first time? >> You. >> Did I look like a little fool or a big one? >> Big fool. >> A super sized fool. >> Super fool. >> Which one of us looked like the bigger fool the second time? >> Me. >> And didn't you feel kind of fool? >> Yeah, absolutely. Which time did I work harder? >> The first time? >> Yeah, I'm My blood pressure is going. I'm yelling. My muscles are stiff. >> Uh the second time I was completely relaxed. I let you say whatever you want. I always treated you like a friend. Easiest thing in the world. Which uh the first time was I treating you like a friend or an enemy? >> The first time? Yeah. An enemy. >> An enemy. I'm angry at you. I'm threatening you. The second time did I treat you like a friend or an enemy? friend. Definitely. >> That's the real difference. And which way are you more likely to end up being my friend? >> Second time. >> Yeah. The first way. No way. You want to be your friend? I look like a fool. And I'm angry and threatening. >> Now, when you were insulting me the first time and I was getting angry, who is making me angry? >> I was making you angry. >> If a thousand people would have been watching, would they all say that you were making me angry? >> Yes. >> But everybody would be wrong. >> Do you know who is really making me angry? me. I made myself angry. I had >> You chose that that that route. >> I made myself angry. I had you listen, I know what I'm doing, you know. So, you know, but I had you insult me two times. The first time I got angry. The second time I didn't. Do you have a remote control to my brain and you're pressing the anger button? >> No. >> No. If I don't want to get angry, I'm not going to get get angry. But it always feels to us like the other person makes us angry. If you get angry at your spouse or at your child or a reckless driver on the road, doesn't it feel like they made you angry? Right? >> Always feels that way. But we do it to ourselves. Why does it feel like others make us angry? And it's very important to understand this. Otherwise, you can't control your anger. >> The reason it feels like others make us angry is because of our biological programming for life in nature. In nature, getting angry is the first step to winning a conflict. Let's say we live in nature and you attack me. Can I tell you, "Hey Joe, get your hands off of me. It's against the law. I'm going to call the police on you." >> No. >> What's law? What's police? You're allowed to kill me. Nobody arrests you. >> So, in nature, if you attack me, I better get angry at you. I'm going to really try to scare you off. And if you leave me alone, I'm very happy. But if you're still looking to kill me and I can't escape, I have to have the drive to tear you to pieces before you tear me to pieces. Right? >> The more quickly and intensely that I get angry in nature, the better my chances are of winning. >> So our brains are programmed to get angry like that in a split second when somebody attacks us or or uh threatens us. So since it happens so quickly with no thinking, it feels like the other person makes us angry but it's our brain doing it to us. >> Correct. >> It's it's very profound that you just displayed over here. >> We played the game two times, Joe. Each time there was an optical illusion. The first time did you see me trying to stop you from insulting me. >> The first time you were coming back aggressively. >> I was trying to stop you. Shut your mouth. It's not true. Don't say that again. No karate. >> If a thousand people would have been watching, would they all say that I was trying to stop you from insulting me? >> Yes. >> Everybody would be wrong. >> It looked like I was trying to stop you from insulting me. You know what I was really doing the first time? >> You were inciting it. >> Yeah. I was making you continue. I made you have fun. I made you win. I made myself look like a big fool. Why should you stop? You're having such a great time. You feel so wonderful. >> And this is what's happening with you and the kids in school. They're making fun of you and you're getting angry at them. You're getting angry because you want them to stop picking on you. That doesn't make them stop. It's why they do it. They're not calling you four eyes because you wear glasses or fatso because you're overweight. They do it because you get upset, but they call you four eyes or fatso. So in civilization, anger changes from the first step to winning and it becomes the first step to losing. If we live in nature and I'm angry at you, you better be careful because I can smash your face and nobody arrest uh arrest me. But we live in civilization. We have rule of law. We know we're not allowed to injure each other. We call the police. So today, you don't have to be afraid of me the way you would be in nature. Today, you can take advantage of my own biological programming against me. I'm programmed to get angry in order to win. I automatically lose when I get angry and you have a great time and you can sit there insulting me and I'm getting angrier and angrier because I want you to stop insulting me and I don't realize the anger is what's making you continue insulting me the second time you played the game there was also an illusion the second time did you see me allowing you to insult me? >> Yes. >> Did I even once suggest you should stop? >> No. It was very clear the second time, you can say anything you want and it's perfectly okay. But that's not what I was doing. It looked like I was letting you insult me. You know what I was really doing? >> Yeah. You you you were actually driving this thing through good communication. >> Yeah. But the more simple answer, what was I? It looked like I was letting you insult me. What was I really doing? >> Controlling it. >> Controlling it so that you would >> that I would stop. >> Right. >> Of course. The game was for me to stop you. You were sure I wouldn't be able to stop you. I stopped you almost immediately. It was effortless and would it was hard to see what I was really doing. >> Right? >> So, if you're somebody being picked on, whether you're a kid or an adult, I tell you, this is what I want you to do for the next week and it only takes a week to see if it works. Doesn't take a year or a month, you're going to tell yourself, if the person wants to be disrespectful, wants to put me down, it's perfectly okay. They can do it all they want. If somebody is mean to you, but you're perfectly calm and happy, who's going to feel foolish? You or they? Yeah. Yeah. They'll they'll feel foolish. Will you be upset if they feel foolish when they pick on you? >> No. >> You'll be happy. >> Yeah. >> So, for the next week, you're going to be happy when they pick on you. Uh and you're going to look forward to it because you're going to win. And after a while, they're going to stop doing it to you. >> But there are two warnings I have to give you, otherwise you won't succeed. The first warning is the problem is not going to get better right away. It's going to get worse in the beginning because let's say you've been picking on me every day for months or even years and I've been getting upset. >> All of a sudden I stop getting upset. You're going to wonder what happened to Izzy. This always bothers him, right? >> And you're not going to like the feeling that you're losing. So you're going to try harder to upset me. You'll my mother like before. Uh but you're going to see no matter how hard you try, it doesn't work. You'll see you're feeling foolish and you'll stop. So the first few days if you see the kids treating you worse, don't think, "Oh no, this isn't working. It's only getting worse." >> You have to give it time. >> Yeah. But not a tremendous amount of time. If it happens every day, a few days is enough to see if it's working. But in the beginning, if it's getting worse, don't think it doesn't work. It does, but it gets worse before it gets better. And the second warning is you have to do it all of the time. If you do most of the time, it's not going to work. >> Uh do you know uh how a slot machine works? >> Yeah. >> You put money in, you pull a lever, you want win a lot of money. >> In order to keep on playing the machine, do you need to win money every single time you >> go like this? >> No. >> Nobody gets a machine like that. >> No. >> As long as you win every once in a while, you keep on trying. >> What does the person do if the slot machine never gives them any money back? Give up. you go to another machine. >> It's the same thing with people. If they can upset you every once in a while, they keep on trying until you get upset. It's only when you never get upset, they stop trying to upset you, >> they'll walk away. >> Uh don't even walk away. >> No, that that the bully is will walk away because you're not >> they'll get tired or maybe they'll get in conversation, a nice conversation with you. Depends how you treat them. >> But uh yet it's going to get worse in the beginning and you have you have to do it all of the time. Now, I want to ask you, Joe, a question. Are you a good person? >> I hope so. >> Yeah, I hope so, too. You remember a little while ago, you were calling me dumb and I can't read and I was getting upset and you were loving it. You were smiling, laughing. You felt so powerful. You wanted to keep on doing it. The second time you played the game, and I was calm and nice to you, you didn't like it. You felt bad and wanted to stop. You had a much better time when I was getting upset. What kind of a good person are you? Right. >> But the truth is is it's not only you who liked it better when I was getting upset. Everybody who watches uh this podcast will have enjoyed it more the first time when I was getting upset. Uh it it makes them laugh, you know, and I look like a fool. Now, you're not really a bad person because everybody experiences this. And also, this is a game. You know that it's not really hurting me. So, since your conscience didn't bother you, you keep on doing it. If it were real life and you thought you were hurting me, you would probably stop >> because the bully in school, I'm trying to put myself into the into a a real scenario with the bully in school. >> You're saying that that bully is really a good person. You just did it for entertainment and you just didn't know how to stop it. But if you would have this method, you would stop him right away in the tracks and that's the end of it. >> Yeah. I I mean I'm I'm not saying whether he's good or bad. you know that you don't want to focus on you don't want to focus but he's normal. He's probably a normal person. It happens among normal people. >> That's why uh almost all of the kids that get accused of being bullies uh they're often good students. Everybody likes them. The teachers like them. Most of them are normal kids, but they get in this situation where the victim is getting upset. It's fun for them. Plus, the victim is being hostile. If I'm hostile, >> you the fire is what you're saying. No, we're program for reciprocity. If I'm even if you start, but if then I'm hostile towards you, I'm making you be hostile to me because of reciprocity. So I'm no angel uh just because I'm a victim. No, we think that the angels are victims and the bullies are demons. No, all of us are bullies. And even our uh wise people teach us we all have an evil inclination. Everybody, nobody is a pure saint or an angel. We all have the capacity of causing pain to other people and even enjoying it under certain circumstances. >> Unbelievable stuff. >> Thank you very much. >> Unbelievable. Mindboggling. >> I'm I'm glad I'm glad you >> But let me give you a synopsis of how I understood it and tell me if this is correct. First of all, you um incorporated spirituality Yiddish. You're built on >> Yeah. >> Which means that you have to love another person like you love yourself and don't do for another person what you have what you don't want to be done for you. Then you displayed uh simple good old communication which means that the bully we really don't want to focus on the bully. I like that. I like that um method very much. We don't need to focus on we don't need to give him a label. We don't we he's he's out of the picture. >> We're having a problem with the victim over here. So the victim has to learn communication. As soon as that victim understands that he will win this game and not only win the game, he may have made himself a couple of good friends if he's going to communicate correctly. You know the let's say the bully is a big brute. If you treat him well, you earn yourself a bodyguard. >> Yeah. So you look at it from a very interesting point of view. You're saying to yourself, just be smart about it. Don't try to be a winner. Don't try to show them you have muscles. Don't try to You're never going to win this. This is a never ending game. It's never ending. It doesn't matter if you're a weak one and you're being picked on or he is a bad one. That's not the that's not that's not the focus. The focus is communicate. We have dibble we have we have >> very specific. Now there are kids who communicate very well but they don't understand the dynamics. So they can communicate very well. You call me stupid. I will express very well how I'm not stupid and you're stupid. You have to understand that little uh deep social understanding of how to uh socially get along with other people and it's a good and and you're saying that this works in marriage as well. >> Yeah. >> And this will work in the business. This will work everywhere. As long as you get this concept of first of all get the hate, take your ego, the hate and the anger and you don't have your ego is getting bruised and you don't have to win. That's that's not what it is. You have to win in the long run is what you're saying. >> Yeah. >> It's it's beautiful. The the most important thing that the victim has to understand, they're getting angry and upset because they want the kids or the the other people to stop bullying them. No, the anger is what's making them continue. It's it's the other way around. You thought you were stopping them. No, you were making them do it. Not intentionally. You had no way of knowing that it's making them continue. >> And and you're providing them those tools. >> Yeah. How to >> And I'll also have them practice. Uh if I if you're my client, I will then after you know I told you that are you a good person and that stuff the next thing I do is I practice with you. I insult you with the instruction you're not to get upset no matter what I say. I give them practice and if they do a good job with me they can probably do a good job with the kids in school. >> Now let me ask you something. Can a child bully a parent or bully a teacher? Will this method work the other way around as well? What do you mean the other way around it? >> Which means the teacher should have this type of communication with the child. So let's say if there's a bully in class, it bullies the teacher. >> Okay. But nobody thinks they're a bully, but people feel like victims. I teach this to everybody. When I'm in a school, I teach the school staff how to get their students to stop bullying them. Now a lot of people a lot of bullying experts for a long time thought that uh a teacher can't be a victim of of a student because the student is weaker the right so it can only be a one-way street. It's nonsense. Uh teachers know that they their students can drive them crazy >> has nothing to do with who has more power or not. Uh if you make the mistake of getting upset with the kid, uh even though you're more powerful than they are, they'll still keep on doing what drives you crazy. >> Let me ask you a funny question. If a child feels lonely and the child feels there's these type of groups, you know, that he's not included in the groups, >> he's not being bullied, but he's being um you know, ignored. Uh, how is he supposed to go over and and start a line of communication? >> Yeah. By the way, being excluded is called bullying today. Correct. >> Anything that can upset you in any way is bullying today. >> So, ex social exclusion is very painful. It's called bullying. >> So, what is your advice as far as >> uh first of all, let's say you're being excluded. You know, I want to know the whole history. You know, did they do other things that upset you? You know, very often it starts with an insult or some incident and from then the problem starts. But now, you know, nobody wants to be your friend, which is terrible. And you know, you're upset because they're not your friends and you look upset and you know, they tell you can't play with us, so you go to the corner, you keep to yourself. Uh the first thing I want to teach you is that um you have to stop caring if people are your friends or not. If I care whether you're my friend or not, I'm giving you power over me. Everybody wants power. So the way to have power over me is to exclude me. Then I get upset. It gives you power. Uh so you take the attitude, nobody has to be my friend if they don't want to. So if you exclude me, you're right to exclude me. It won't upset me, but then I look cool to you and you're more likely to to include me. And another thing I teach the kid is don't separate yourself. If you go hang out by yourself, the kids think you don't like them from their point of view. You don't like them. Why should they be your friend? So you you don't you don't go away. You hang around them. If they make fun of you, it's okay. You hang around them. If they tell you you can play with us, you say, "Oh, then I'll watch." and you watch. Before long, they'll start playing you when they need a player. But you don't exclude yourself. Most kids who are like inim they're excommunicated, they separate themselves. They just >> nobody's going to want to be their friend. I mean, maybe somebody will be nice enough to come and be their friend, >> but it doesn't attract kids to you. Don't don't separate yourself. Uh also in uh perk vote there's you know don't separate yourself from the >> Yeah. Don't do that. >> Yeah. Now why you're what I like about your your mahalak is that um why it works is because you you're absolutely focusing on the person itself. What you're doing is you're trying to tell the victim or whatever the case is, whatever you want to call them, to not point fingers. Always come back to yourself and try somehow to see where you can, you know, it's it's like a lot of ego in there, you know, a lot of removing your ego, you know, a lot of removing shame. It's not so simple, but the method works. >> Now, I'm I'm doing what you're saying. I'm teaching you uh to I'm teaching you not to think of the person as a bad person. But I don't say that. I play the game with you. I show you what I ask you. Why are they doing this to you? They see it bothers you. What's wrong with them? And if it's in a Jewish school, aren't they supposed to be uh how can they do this to you? Look how they're treating you. So then I teach you why they do it and how to make them stop. So >> give him introspect is what you're saying. >> Yeah. Because if you're being picked on, you want nothing more than to stop being picked on. You're losing. The the victim feels like a loser. And a common insult is you're a loser. You want to be a winner. So I'm going to teach you how to win. >> What about sometimes you will see a child coming from a divorced home >> who's playing the parents who is bullying the parents. Again, you always I I understand that you want the parents to start getting a handle of how to deal. I mean, because this kid is taking advantage now, you know, there's stepparents and there's >> if there's a situation in which uh parents are divorced or getting divorced and there's a child in the middle and he's playing them off each other, >> I always prefer to work with the parents for two reasons. one, the parents are smarter and more mature. They can understand what I teach better. But secondly, the parent should be in control. So I want you to be in control. And I don't have to work with both of the couple. I can work with one. Uh because, you know, if you and your uh spouse or ex-spouse are fighting all the time, uh um if you treat them a certain way, if you change the way you treat them, they'll change the way you they treat you. Yeah. >> So, it's nice to have both of the couple, but if I can only get you, I'll teach you what to do. And then your uh your spouse will have trouble being mean to you, but because it doesn't work, but they'll like you better because you're nicer to them. You're showing them respect. right now. What message do you have for parents um to instill in their kids this part this about this communication about uh you know not answering not getting angry and not getting upset about this insight that you're teaching >> I have a very short way of teaching parents what to do the procedure I did with you it takes I don't know half an hour or something I can't expect a parent to do that >> or a teacher to do that but there's a very simple way you can do it in a couple of minutes So, let's say you're my son and you're crying because your older brother is calling you an idiot all the time. Now, if I punish your older brother, is that going to make him want to be nicer to you? >> Of course not. >> Of course not. So, it's not going to help. >> And and your brother's going to be mad at me also. >> Yeah. >> So, it's not going to help. >> You're losing the entire family. >> Do we defend ourselves from friends or enemies? >> You defend yourself from enemies. >> Yeah. So if I'm defending myself from you, I am treating you like you like you're my enemy. You'll treat me back like an enemy. So I treat you like a friend. >> Um and instead of defending myself, I make you defend yourself by asking you, is that what you believe? >> Now you're on the defensive. Do you believe it? If you want to believe it, I can't stop you. If you don't believe it, great. >> But I automatically win by asking you, is that what you believe? >> Right? Because really the kid is just doesn't believe that. He's just, you know, he wants to bully. He feels like the older brother and he wants to do it. He gets a kick out of it. But in reality, what you're saying is that there's no hate. There's no animosity. Even in a school or even in, I don't know, in a business. In a business, you also think this is, you see, this is between kids. The play that we made two times is between a brother and kids in school. What about adults >> who are angrier? They have more insight now. They're jealous. I I don't know whether >> they're not they don't have more insight, but they might be more sophisticated and maybe the results are more serious because if we're at work, uh you might cause me to get fired. I need my job. >> Right? >> So at work, it hurts the individual very much, but also it hurts the company's bottom line. If their workers are uh antagonistic toward each other, it automatically hurts the bottom line. They're going to sabotage each other. They're going to work less efficiently because I'm upset at work. Instead of paying attention to my job, I'm upset. Uh I complain about you. I'll try to get other people against you. You know, one of the things the the workplace bullying psychology teaches people that if you're being at bully at the work, get witnesses. Talk to the other workers, you know, get witnesses, you know, does it happen to them? So what's doing? I'm getting I'm causing mutiny. I I'm working for you and I'm going around getting your workers against you. That's not nice. >> Yeah. >> But that's what people are being told. Everybody's so concerned with bullying in schools. The truth is schools are the place where the least amount of bullying goes on. It happens more in the workplace and the place that happens most of all is right at home. >> Unbelievable stuff what you're saying right now. You know, I'll talk to to kids, a class of kids. You know, I'll ask who here gets picked on every day by other kids in school. Some hands go up. Uh I ask, "Who gets picked on every day by your brother or sister Rome?" Everybody's hands go up. >> It's unbelievable stuff. So, before we're going to get into it, I want to understand um the dynamic of bullying. What does that mean? Is there a regular kid or a regular person that has some sense? And you can try to to talk some sense into them or you have a mechanism of how to uh build a relationship with them and and and solve the bullying problem or is it a personality disorder which means that you are stuck at a certain place. You from your side wants to stop the bullying. You from your side will do everything in the world to try to become friendly with that person and make shulim. But there's nobody home. There is nobody to talk to. So who are we going to discuss? Are we going to discuss call it regular people or we're going to discuss people or children? We'll get into it later. who show some kind of disorder that they don't put together one one plus two and they don't get a message that we want shulam and we want peace. Uh I'm going to discuss everybody but people are on a spectrum. You know people are different. Some people are more to the extreme of one way and the other and more to the extreme of the other way. But the thing is we're focusing on first of all we have to talk before we talk about the dynamics of bullying. What is bullying? >> That was my first question. Explain what is bullying? When does a person know that he's being bullied? Uh people know when they're being bullied if they're I'll get to that. Uh we have a scientific definition of bullying today. Uh but they can't when the people or person who made up the definition didn't do research on who are all the people that get accused by people of being bullies. They figured, well, a bully must be somebody who has no empathy because who else would make somebody else miserable? Uh, they're incapable of remorse, you know. So, they really the definition of a bully is pretty much a psychopath. The formal definition of bullying is uh there there are three elements to it. One of them is an intention to cause distress or harm to the victim. So if I'm bullying you, it has to be intentional. I am actually looking to cause you pain or distress. The second car the second characteristic is repetition. It it can't be just one time. But you know since the it's repetition they'll say well two times or more is bullying. And the third part of bullying is an imbalance of power. There has to be an imbalance of power and of course the bully is the stronger one. So if you're bullying me, you have to be stronger than me. Uh if you're the same strength of as me power, you know, the same power as me, you can be driving me crazy, but it's not considered bullying because we're equal power, >> right? But let me ask you something. The drive from a bully is that they want power. >> The thing is everybody wants power. Wanting power is part of life. Every living creature is programmed to want power. >> Power over another human being. >> I I can't make build my house by myself. I can't make all all of my food by myself. So, I need to get other people to make my build my house for me to make my food for me. Everybody wants power, >> right? Everybody wants >> you're saying if building your house and preparing food and and getting a business done is power but it's an unhealthy way. Bullying is power in an unhealthy way hurting another person. >> Yeah. Because if it's not bothering anybody, it's not called bullying. But first of all, the most basic social need is power. I want to have influence of over other people. I need to get other people to do things for me because I can't do everything by myself. So having power feels good. H being powerless feels bad. >> I got you. >> And that's why uh powerless people are miserable. They want more power. So everybody wants power. There's nothing wrong with it. The thing is there you can have there are there's what I call the bully way of having power and there's the the buddy way of having power. >> Uhhuh. >> You uh the bully way is I I make people afraid of me. So you're going to do what I want because you're afraid of me. Now it it works but there are negative sides of it because uh if I make you afraid of me, you're not going to like me. You're going to hate me. inside and if you have an opportunity to hurt me, you may take the opportunity. So yes, it's one way to have power, but I my life is in danger if I or my career is in danger. The other way is the the buddy way. I'll make you my buddy and if you're my friend, then you'll want to do things for me. So that's the better way. But unfortunately, you'll sometimes meet people who do it the bully way. I I just want to get back to the definition of bullying. The threepart scientific definition of bullying is worthless. I can't go into I I can go into it now, but it's really it causes more problems than good. What we're really talking about with bullying is the same people are doing the same things that upset you over and over again. >> Right? >> That's what a victim of bullying is. Your boss keeps on doing the same kinds of things that upset you, your colleague, your spouse, other kids in school, they keep on doing to you what you can't stand. That's bullying. >> That's bullying. Now, let me ask >> and people know they're being bullied because they don't like the way they're being treated. >> Right. Now, let me ask you something. Where does bullying begin? Is it um a child? Let's talk about a child first. Is it from a chaotic home? Is something missing? there's an insecurity of the child that comes to school and wants to uh show some power. Where where is this where does it stem from? >> It can come from all kinds of things. It certainly can come from people who have a reason to be upset with life so they take it out on somebody else. But very often the person that somebody experiences a bully is completely normal. Uh many of the kids in school that get labeled bully, if you look at them, they're good students. They're popular. Everybody likes them. But the reason we're having such a hard time making things better is because we're focusing on on the bully. If you want to make things better, you focus on the victim. >> What I'm hearing is that you want to build the victim up like a codependent. You would you would you would build a codependent up to a level of self-esteem, self-worth. And automatically um he will not get bullied or he would have put down boundaries or how is by him being built up how is he saving himself from a a a bully. >> Yeah. People think because this is what's u presented by the experts that uh you build the victim up and then he can handle bullying. No, I don't build the victim up. I teach him how not to be bullied. then his self-confidence and self-esteem go up. It come self-esteem and self-confidence come from uh success. So, you're being picked on. You don't know why they're so mean to you. For me to build you up, it can take a year. Maybe it'll take a year for me to build you up. I don't I'm not going to spend a year trying to get you to stop being bullied. I'm going to try to get you to stop being bullied. I want you to stop being bullied as soon as possible. So, I'm going to teach you what's really going on because the bullying is what makes you miserable, right? >> It destroys your self-confidence. What's wrong with me? Why are they treating me this way? What's wrong with me? You can start out with a higher self-confidence. But if you get yourself in in a situation where you're being bullied, it'll destroy your self-confidence >> 100%. And now, are there certain kids who are get targeted more than others? Yeah, some people are naturally more targeted uh because, you know, they're like a bully magnet. They have a a sign on the back of their shirt, you know, kick me. Of course, they don't, but it's easier to pick on them. You know that they're sensitive, they're vulnerable, and you'll get a rise out of them. >> And they smell them out very quickly. >> Yeah. you see them very but the truth is it can start out you could you we have this idea that the bully is intentionally seeking out people to to hurt you know that's a psychopath you know and and the truth is according to the bullying definition it's a cowardly psychopath because he picks on people weaker than himself >> most psychopaths will take on anybody they're fearless >> so a tiny percentage of people are cowardly psychopaths has but far more than a percent or two of people get experienced by others as bullies. It's much higher than that. Depending on the research study, it could be as high as 50% of people are bullies, >> right? Can you explain the difference of a normal conflict and a bullying like two people have a conflict? >> It uh again that's one of the things that the bullying psychology teaches us. There are conflicts and there's bullying and they're not the same thing. In a conflict, in if in a bullying situation, you're driving me crazy. It's a one-way street. In a conflict, it could be a two-way street. You're driving me crazy. I'm driving you crazy. And it happens often among couples, >> right? They drive disagreement, but it's okay. >> Yeah. No, nobody thinks they're a bully. Almost nobody in the world thinks they're a bully. Donald Trump is called the bully and chief, right? He's called the bully more than anybody in the the entire world. The Wall Street uh uh the Washington Post, I believe it was, labeled him the bully and chief, and he's called a bully all over the place. During the in the 2020 election uh campaign, uh Joe Biden accused Donald Trump of being a bully. Trump said, "I don't think I'm a bully." and he explained how he works and from his point of view he is protecting America from the real bullies there. The bully is always the other person, >> right? >> It's never you. >> So that's one of the reasons you can't do much about bullying if you focus on the bully because nobody thinks they're a bully. If I accuse you of being a bully, what are you talking about? I'm not a bully. But everybody feels like a victim and nobody wants to be a victim. So, it's much more effective to focus on victims because, oh, I I want to stop being a victim, but nobody thinks I want to stop being a bully. That makes a lot of sense. Now, as far as um teenagers, um what ages it starts at a very young age and then it goes all the way up between the schooling when we're still on the children. In school, it starts becoming a big problem around third grade, a little bit in second grade. There'll be problem, you know, social problems beneath that, but like the real bullying where somebody is, you know, picking on you over and over again, that tends to start around third grade. Uh, it often gets worse in middle school. And in high school, it kind of drops off because the kids get mature and, you know, they're not into this anymore. Um >> now now what about a teacher or a parent was bullying the child? >> I have never met a parent or a teacher who said I'm so happy that I have children because I always wanted children so I can make them miserable and finally I'm a parent or I'm a teacher and I have a child that I can make them suffer and it makes me so happy. I never met a parent like that. Every parent that gets accused of being a bully, if you talk to them, they're a victim. My child is driving me crazy. My child talks back to me, curses me out, doesn't listen to me. Um, you know, my my students, I'm trying to teach and they don't listen to me. They're talking and they defy me. So, they can they're experienced by the students as a bully, right? >> But you talk to them. No, they're a victim of the students. It's a two-way street. But I'll tell you what I heard and I was speaking to some teenagers and they were telling me that the Rebi and and and Yeshiva or whatever is giving them the silent treatment. They're they're they're playing with their minds. They're bullying him in a certain way because you know for punishment like they give him the invisible punishment. >> Okay. And if you were to talk to the you said it was a rebby who was doing that. If you talk to this rebi why would he what would be his explanation for why he's giving the students the silent treatment? >> Again it's it's his tools that he uses to put someone in place which means he has a private language with this kid. You know there's physical bullying and there's also emotional emotional uh violence. >> Okay. And what he's doing is he's playing games. Playing games. He's making this child feel he shrinks that child to a point that that child should behave. >> And is his ultimate goal to do this because I want to have the pleasure of making children suffer. >> No, it's not bullying because in bullying it has to be the intention to hurt. >> Right. >> You talk to them. I have to discipline them. >> Who wants to get control of the class? >> Yeah. So because otherwise they're victimized by the class. The kids aren't listening to him. They're not obeying him. So if if you really want to know if somebody is a bully or a victim, talk to them. If they say they're a victim, they're a victim. Just because he looks like a bully to you, if he feels like a a victim, his motivation is victim motivation. >> What happens to a child's nervous system when they get bullied? Listen, there's no question that being bullied and the more you're bullied, it's going to hurt you. There's so much research about this. You know, there are thousands of research studies done on bullying and bullying prevention programs and pretty much we're getting nowhere, >> right? >> Really, it's still a problem like ever because this whole uh bullying field is misguided. >> It's misguided and misunderstood. Uh there's a lot of research done. Uh the research on the programs themselves show that for the most part they have almost no benefit and often make the problem worse. Now researchers like to do research that shows positive results. The best way to get research that shows positive results is to study the harm that's caused by bullying because you're going to find it. >> Right? >> So I don't I'm not into that. I know that it hurts people. I don't have to look into why it's obvious that it hurts people. But if you want to get your study published, oh look what results and you know this much you know and you can pub publish it newspapers they want to hear about it because there it's has a strong finding. No trouble finding that bullying hurts. We know that >> right >> the what we should be concerned with is getting people to stop being bullied. >> Right. You're going to the root of the problem. Do do bullies know what they're doing or they're numb to it? They are just it's is this calculated or just the >> you have to talk to the person you once you label a bully by definition he wants to hurt the people and he knows what he's doing but the person call I I rarely refer to an individual as a bully. >> You know we think that is a diagnosis >> right? you know, it's a scientific term and you know, we it's not a diagnosis. There is no diagnostic test for a bully. There are criteria, but there's no diagnostic test. >> And sometimes >> I I do at at my seminars uh I have an exercise that I give the people. I call it a c categorization exercise. I have 20 terms and two columns, you know, next to each term. uh the terms are mixed. You know, some of them are obviously insults and some of them are obviously diagnosis. And I want the person to look at each term and check the diagnosis column or the insult column. And the word bully is in there. 95% of people check the insult column for a bully. It's an insult. When somebody treats you don't like the way you don't like, you call them a bully, >> right? I recently spoke to somebody who told me that his son's Roshia Shiva is a bully. >> Yeah. >> I just said why are you calling him a bully? So he explained something and I said that's you call that bullying. He said what do you call it? He's he's trying he's trying to protect your son. That's his goal. He's not doing in a way that you like but he's trying to protect your son. So you experience him as a bully because you don't like the way he's doing it. But from the Reby's point of view, he's trying to save the child. >> Well, it's fascinating what you're saying. And also the the sometimes the victims um by being bullied, they go and they look for the weaker ones and they bully the weaker ones. Did you find that? >> Of course. You see it a lot at home. uh a kid is picked on by their older sibling and they go and they pick on a younger sibling. >> Yeah. >> Because it's it's a good way to feel better. The thing is we think it's abnormal that it's pathological. It's not abnormal. It's to totally normal. If it were abnor abnormal it wouldn't happen very often. >> It's survival is what you're saying. >> It it's part of of human nature. >> Now in bullying is there physical and there is emotional. Is there also, you know, like the silent treatment like I was saying before? What what categories do you find that people use bullying or people get bullied? >> Yeah. Um, so many I would say the great majority of people that uh are involved in the bullying field and call themselves experts, one of the things they do is they make categories like it's important to categorize it, >> right? Tell me what they're doing to you. How are they bothering you? I don't need to categorize. You'll tell me what's happening to you and I'll teach you how to deal with it. So, I don't care about all these categories. >> Right. Right. Right. What should parents look for in their children if sometimes the children don't want to share? And where can they see that this child is uh you know needs help as far as building themselves up because they're being bullied? This idea of building the child up, it's like helping the child realize that he's a good person and he's, you know, not not what the police call him. >> Correct. >> Um, >> I don't use that thinking much. I want to teach the person why they're being picked on and how to turn it around. Uh so ch parents not always but they usually know if their child is being bullied because the kid will complain you know they're picking on me in school. Now they don't the parents don't always know because the kids sometimes don't tell. So you have to see is your child miserable? Does he hate going to school? Does he come home really upset? Something is going on. And how many times do you see that if parents get involved and sometimes they I'll go over and I'll make I'll talk to the principal. I'll talk to I'll talk to the kid. That thing can make the situation worse. Correct. >> It it nothing is totally one way or the other. Sometimes it helps but if it doesn't help it tends to make it worse. And it's very easy to make it worse. But this is true not only in school or the workplace at home because almost all parents do the wrong thing when the kids bother each other. And that's why almost every family has kids that are fighting every day and it's driving the parents crazy. >> And why is it so complicated for schools to to get a handle on this thing? This is like a problem that's going back years and they're still dealing with it. and and in in in all kinds of schools in every culture same problem bullying is a huge problem. >> What the field of bullying psychology has done they have uh created the belief that schools can put a stop to bullying and it's their legal responsibility to stop it and if they don't stop it it's the school's fault. >> Now let me ask you a question. Let's say you're a physician. You're a medical doctor. There's an illness going around and the company develops a medication for this illness. The research shows that the medication doesn't work very well. It it'll help maybe 10% of people and sometimes it makes them worse. So, you know, there's no question that this only has a very limited effectiveness and sometimes makes it worse. Now there's a law that when a person comes to you with this illness, you have to prescribe this medication. And if it doesn't heal the person, they sue you. >> You have to give this medication that's proven not to work. And if it doesn't work, the patient sues you, not the company that produced this uh medication that doesn't work very well or the government that forced you to. >> You would never you wouldn't want to be a doctor, >> right? But this is what's been done to schools and the schools don't realize it. >> The experts don't know how to make bullying stop. The most intensive programs will get if a program produces a 20% reduction in bullying is considered a major accomplishment. Like this is the goal of 20%. That's an 80% failure rate. So the schools can't make it go away. And if they follow the mandated policies, it's most likely to make it worse. >> Right? >> So the schools have to do something that makes it worse. And if they don't make it better, the the school gets sued, >> right? >> This is the worst thing that ever happened to schools. The anti-bullying laws. >> Wow. Now, what for sure does not work in bullying? >> I wouldn't say there's anything for sure. Sometimes certain things work with some people. Sometimes being tough with the kids that get labeled bully, sometimes it works, >> right? >> But uh if it doesn't work, it makes it worse. And this is how you and I are kids in school. You call me an idiot or some bad name. Well, that's bullying today. I tell the teacher on you, the teacher sends you to the principal's office. You know, some schools have a bullying coordinator. Uh, but often it's the principal that's responsible for it. So, I get you sent to the principal's office. The principal says, "Why do you call Izzy that bad name?" Are you going to say, "Oh, I'm a bully. I like hurting people for no good reason." Or you going to say, "What are you talking about? I didn't do that to Izzy. Izzy's lying. He's making it up. Or is he started with me? I was just just just getting back at him." Which are you more likely to do, the first or the second? >> Oh, it's going to backfire. that you're going to defend yourself from me. The normal thing for any human being, not only for kids, but even for us as adults, when we're accused of wrongdoing, >> we want to defend ourselves and blame the accuser. A policeman stops us and wants to give us the ticket. We want to defend ourselves and say the policeman is is >> doing the wrong thing. It's normal. So, if I get you sent to the principal's office, you're going to deny that you bullied me. Are you going to like me better if I get you sent to the principal's office and you get interrogated and punished? >> Of course not. >> You're going to hate me? >> Of course. >> If you hate me, you're going to want to be nice to me. >> Absolutely not. >> You're going to want to get back at me. So, you'll probably do something worse to me. Maybe you'll be, you know, beat me up. If you look at news stories about a bullying situation which ended up with serious violence, it's almost always after the school got involved following the mandated policies. >> Wow. >> And we wonder why it's not getting better. >> Yeah. You're saying you're saying amazing stuff. >> And you know the suicide rate of bullied kids is going up year after year. It's going up. And the su and the percentage of kids that shoot up schools is going up all the time. >> Yeah. Now what's interesting is also that um this bullying has such an effect on children that u it takes them all the way into into adulthood. They take this with them the hate and the anger. >> Now that takes us over to a conversation of adults bullying each other. So let's say in a marriage you can have a wife bullying the husband or the husband bullying the wife. >> They usually do it to each other. If you do marriage counseling and you have a couple that's fighting. Yeah. >> Talk to each one separately. They will do such a good job of convincing you that they're the victim and their spouse is the bully. >> Talk to the other one. They'll do the same thing. >> Right? >> Each one thinks they're the good one. The other one is the bad one. right >> human nature. Now you know the bullying is always saying I'm just saying the truth you know they're just you know this is also a form of uh bullying by uh you know in marriages she was just say that uh I'm telling you I'm telling the way it is you know in the meantime you're hurting this other person you your methods that you have that you want to do because this is brilliant what you're doing is you're going to the core of the problem you're you're not minimizing ing it, but you don't even want to focus on the bully. You don't want to mention the word bully. It's this is not what we're dealing with. It's very similar to what they do with codependence and narcissism. >> And the relationship between codependence and narcissism, the fact is or psychopaths, the fact is that they're not going to change. After it's established that this is a psychopath, you got to get out of the game. So the only thing is to work with the codependent and understand where the codependent lost themselves and understand how the codependent could there's a reason why the codependent is attracted to the narcissist. So when you get to the root of the problem, you just solve the huge problem. >> So there's nothing to do with the narcissist. You cannot help a narcissist. not wild and not >> the thing is >> narcissism isn't an all or nothing. We all have narcissism to some degree. Everybody is born totally narcissistic and little by little we get over it. >> Uh some people never get over it. Some people might have uh a neurological problem or they had some trauma that just distorted their personality development. >> But it's really a spectrum of being a narcissist. Very often the person that we call a narcissist is based solely on what the victim tells us about the person. >> What about a psychopath? >> There are psychopaths and uh hopefully you don't marry one. You know, if you marry one, it's going to be very tough and uh if you can, you you should divorce them, you know. >> How do you know if someone is a real psychopath? only if the victim is complaining about a pattern that they see again and again. No empathy, no remorse. There's these. >> Okay, let's say I'm working with you and you are calling your spouse a psychopath. Well, I want to know how do they get along with people at work. >> If often they'll tell me, wonderful. Everybody loves them. How do they get along with their family members? Wonderful. You know, they're respectful. They're respectful to everybody but me. Well, if they're respectful to everybody, they get along with people, probably something has it has something to do with the relationship between you and the person, >> right? But what happens if the case is the other way? >> But if if they're like this to everybody, if they treat everybody badly and nobody likes them because they're so bad, then okay, then I would agree. But first, you have to find out is it is this person like this all the time or just with you, >> right? So that is a that is a sign to say let me take a look at myself is what you're saying. >> Yeah. If they get along with everybody else but just not and if you used to get along now I also want to did you used to get along with the person and for how long you know because very often people are getting along and then something happens and it caused them a problem and they never solve it and they just get into this cycle where they're angry at each other and blaming each other and it never ends. But if you used to get along, you know, genuinely if you used to love the person, they were a good person, uh I can probably teach you how to make things better if you want to make things better. >> Right. So your method that you use uh bullies to become buddies, how um helps in marriage as well. >> Uh it helps for what I consider good marriages. A bad marriage is often better to be broken up. But very often the couple that's fighting all the time. They really do have a good marriage. It's just they don't understand why they're angry at each other all the time and why they have this problem. Now I'm not I'm not saying I do this all the time. Plus I'm not a marriage counselor. I I don't get a lot of cases like this. But I have saved ma some marriages in one session. I showed them what's going on and suddenly you know the problem goes away. >> No, but what you're saying >> not not always. I'm not I don't want to give the wrong impression. >> But but what I'm hearing from you is I understand you're not focusing on bullies. You're not you you don't like the term and I understand that because you like to go to the court. You you straight shooter. You you I don't want to dance around it and I don't want to understand the psychology. What's behind this bullying? Is it fear? Is it the childhood tra? whatever the case is. But you're giving them a pass because what you're doing is you're focusing only on the victims. And does anybody come for help saying, you know what, I'm a bully. I'm too powerful. People are afraid of me. Help me get rid of my power. Nobody comes for help saying they're a bully. Everybody who comes for help is a victim. >> Correct? So if if the problem is the bully, it means it's not the person coming to me for help. So what am I supposed to do as a counselor, a therapist, a coach? You come and tell me that your mother-in-law is driving you crazy. So my job is to go to your mother-in-law, say, you know, you're a bully. I spoke to your son-in-law and he described you as a bully. You need therapy. >> Right? That will not work. >> Of course, nobody does that. But it's just are you validating to the victim that that person at least has a label? >> I I don't they have a name. What's the name of your mother-in-law that's making you miserable? So, we'll talk about it with a name. Once we if I talk about the person as a bully, I have all made it very difficult for you to make things better because you have I have let you know she that is the bad person. They're at fault. I can't help you much if you think they're the bad person and it's their the problem is their fault. I have to go work with them. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes a lot of sense. Now, some there are there there's uh a workplace bullying expert, Laura Craw, and she's wonderful. She does work with bully bosses, but she doesn't doesn't just accept like that that the boss is a bully. You know, she has to have good reasons to think they're a bully. And then she'll approach them uh you know, letting them know, you know, a lot of people complain about you. they say that you're a bully and you know we want to try to figure out how to make things better. So, uh she does refer to people as bullies but only if she has a good reason and she teaches them how to make things better. >> Now, let's let's talk about what's going on in the workplace. Um there are bosses. There are also uh COOs, managers who take over the place who are bullying people and there are just uh you know workmates who are bullying each other. >> Um is this anything different than what's going on in schools and in marriages and is is the is the method the same as well? >> Uh I teach the same principles. >> Uh the problems are pretty much universal. They might have some slight differences. is, you know, the workplace is different because if you're my boss, I'm getting paid a salary. Uh so I have some obligation to you. It's uh if we're married with each other, we're not paying each other salaries. Also in work, if you're my boss and I don't like the way you're treating me, I can go to human resources. Uh if we're married, who do I go to? You know, who do I complain to? Right? Uh but in general the bullying psychology tells us that we have to inform the authorities. the you know if you don't inform the authorities how are they going to solve your problem but the thing is the authorities uh usually can't solve your problem you know are they psychologists that know how to solve problems but people are taught that nobody has the right to bully you means to meaning to make you feel bad to disrespect you >> so if I go to work with this idea that nobody's allowed to disrespect me it's bullying and you say something disrespectful to me, I'm likely to get angry. That's bullying. You have no right to treat me that way and I'll get angry at you. If I get angry at you, you're going to like me better. It'll make you angry at me. I'll go to human resources. Are you going to tell resource human resources, "Yeah, I'm a bully. I I was hiding it, but you caught me. I'm a bully and now I deserve to be punished." >> You're going to defend yourself and and blame the the worker. You're going to blame me. >> That's the normal thing. And that's what happens. And that's why people are told go to human resources. They go to human resources. It's worse now. Now everybody's against me. The the the company is saying it's my fault >> because if you're the boss, you're more important to the company than I am in most cases. >> So the company's going to take your side against me. >> Yeah. Now in abusive relationships if the bully if the victim in this case is not going for help and doesn't get the he doesn't get the proper advice how to deal with this in abusive relationships a lot of times the trauma bonding is happening and the victim goes and apologizes to the abuser. You know this is like a a vicious cycle that is going on. Do you find this in these type of relationships also where >> it can happen but uh probably what's happening is you're getting upset with this other person. They're getting you angry. You're being hurt and then maybe they'll do something to kind of uh make you feel and then you apologize. >> But then the same thing happens and they treat you in a way you don't like and you get angry again and it never ends. Um, if you if what the worker did was the correcting, the boss would stop treating them badly. But they're doing things unwittingly. Nobody is a victim on purpose, >> right? >> They're trying a victim is trying very hard to make the bullying stop, but they don't realize why what they're doing isn't working >> now. How deep is this uh bullying um hurting other people? that you in those years that you're spending time in schools and you talk to victims. You talk to kids who are being victims of bullying. Do you find that it's it's it's it's cutting very deep. It has tremendous emotional. >> It depends on the kid. There are kids who despite the bullying, they'll be top students. They're good students. It doesn't prevent them from being good students, but they don't like their social life or, you know, things are happening to them every day that are upsetting them, but they still like to learn and, you know, they don't want to stop learning. There are some kids who are so upset by what's going on, they can't pay attention, they can't learn and and they go downhill and they might get in trouble. Um, so it depends on the kids. Some people are hurt terribly and some less, but they don't like the way they're being treated. According to the bullying psychology, we have to tell the victim, the problem has nothing to do with you. You're perfect. You're innocent. It has nothing to do with you. It's only because of them. It's teaching children to blame others for their misery. >> Yeah. >> Adults, that's that's counter productive. It's counter therapy. >> That is unbelievable stuff. And and to to me it's mindboggling that other people don't see it. You know, uh do you know the event that caused the modern world to go to war against bullying? >> What? >> The Coline shooting of of 1999. >> Um I won't go into details about why, but it's been over a quarter of a century that we're on this mission to get rid of bullying. uh when I saw what the b you know after Coline this field of bullying psychology that I wasn't familiar with I never learned it they came up com a cert saying they have the solution to bullying when I saw their solution I knew this is going to make everything worse everything I learned in psychotherapy and religion and philosophy is the opposite of what they're teaching They're taking the things that make things worse and they're saying this is what you have to >> implementing it in schools >> and you have to do it and the research shows it doesn't work but you have to do it and if you don't make it succeed you're going to get sued. >> It's unbelievable. >> And I I why don't other people see it? Unbelievable to me. Uh now I began talking about this and writing uh immediately but I I never like publish something seriously. I have things online and and in my seminars, but the first book that ca that criticized the anti-bullying movement was 10 years after it began. A psychologist named Helen Goldberg wrote a book called um uh um something childhood. I um anyway, it had a chapter on the problems with the bullying anti-bullying movement. The first published work in in the world was 10 years after Coline. She got death threats. She stopped talking about it. A few years later, a psychologist named Su uh Susan Anne Porter wrote the first whole book explaining what's wrong with bully the bullying approach. The book is called Bully Nation. Why uh America's approach to aggression is making everything worse. So that was about 15 years. It took that long for for people to come out with it. But she also got that threat. So she stopped talking about it. I'm the only masochist who kept on talking about it despite all of the hostility I got for what I'm teaching. >> I want to thank you for your dedication to this important work for so many years. How many years are you doing this? Uh I've been teaching kids how to stop being bullied and teaching teachers what to do about it uh since 1978 about that's when I began working in schools and right away I discovered that the main complaint is they're picking on me. So I would teach kids what to do about it but publicly dealing with it. It's been since Coline. >> Wow. You know you gave us perspective. You gave us tools. Tools that can change people's lives. We know we can't control the world. What we can control is how we navigate things. >> That's what we can do. It was a real honor to have you on the podcast and I want to thank you for sharing your wisdom. Okay. >> Thank you so much. >> I I want people to know where they can get more. I have books. I have videos. I don't have all of them here. Yeah. >> Uh but I have to get all information. What's the website? >> Uh izzycalman.com. >> Where people can find information and they can find you. >> They can find me. They can find information for sale >> because this is this is nef. >> Thank you so much. >> What you're doing is >> you're not just having a job. This is not a job. You're you're building people's lives. >> This this is a mission. you know, uh, I was working for the Department of Education in in Staten Island, uh, when Coline happened and, uh, a couple of years later, I decided to leave and I went to work with a company that provides, uh, seminars for mental health professionals all over the country. Uh, my colleagues thought I was crazy. You're resigning. This is a good job. It's a good salary. If you retire, you'll get so much money, have all these benefits. They thought I was crazy. But I didn't care. I had a mission here. >> You made it into a mission. >> Yeah. >> Should give you and gaz so you can continue doing what you're doing. >> Thank you so much. Thank you.