Understanding the Self Beneath the Struggle- Schneur Hayes

people have done the most horrific crimes. And I was shocked to see that they're just an innocent child so broken. And it really, really spoke to me. Don't just invest in building more prisons, invest in educating children. Imagine a world where like crying was never shamed, was never told boys don't cry or, you know, stop being a wuss or whatever. Just imagine that wasn't there, then the body would continue doing what it knows how to do, which is to grieve pain. When it hurts, it's actually an invitation for you to go deeper and create more connection with self. >> If you're fixated on fixing, it's probably projection. Which is it's too hard to see my own problems. So, if I fix other people's problems, it saves me from fixing my problems. >> Not a lot of people actually experience life. And they're waiting for Messiah to come so they'll they'll finally be able to live, not realizing that you can come into Messiah instead of Messiah coming. >> What is your deepest lesson that you learned in your practice from people that the overtook you? Most people think that a sober living is just a place where you stay clean. It's not. A sober living is about building yourself after the noise stops. It's when you meet yourself. That's why I created something meaningful, a home for people who suffer from addictions named Cove 76. If you know somebody who suffers or you suffer, please check out this website. Cove 76. Cove 76 is not just a house. Cove 76 is about taking your life back. Check out cove76.com. Okay. Today, we have a great guest. His name is Schneier Hayes. Um he is a therapist who is using IFS type of treatment, somatic work, and all of the above. Now, IFS is standing is stands for internal family systems. That's what it is. Um, he helps people listen to their hidden voices. You make sure that people listen to themselves. You have addicts of all kinds. He's not only talking about healing, he's guiding people he's guiding people into healing. Um, his work includes mind, body, and soul. Include everything. Um, Shnayer, welcome to the struggle. >> Thank you for having me. >> Excellent. Thank you so much for coming in. Before we start, I just want you to explain the audience what is IFS and what is somatic work, what are the stuff that you're dabbling in. >> Sure. So, um, without going into the actual modality of IFS >> Right. >> the basic idea as it comes into the healing work is that the way we operate and the things that we do and the behaviors we have are usually things that we that our subconscious mind have produced for us to protect us from experiencing things that we've went through in the past. So, in IFS it's called like exiles. And those are the experiences we had in childhood that we weren't able to process, that nobody helped us get regulated with. And so, the subconscious mind develops ways of like creating a lifestyle for ourselves where we don't have to face those things. An example of that can be you know, if let's just say that somebody in their childhood experienced public shame. So, they were shamed in public. So, >> [snorts] >> they can develop internally a like a social anxiety or a fear of like being seen. And what's really going on is that the mind's trying to protect you from feeling that pain. So in that modality, the pain becomes the guiding force of how you live. And until you show up for it and learn how to process it, you're basically just working for it. >> So IFS compartmentalizes IFS puts things in place so you make sense. >> Yeah, so really what I mean IFS internal family systems which was put together the science put together by Richard Schwartz. Um The it it's what he found in his work. A lot of it's taken from modalities from from you know previous modalities, but it's basically flipping the way traditional therapy looked like 180. So instead of somebody coming and saying I'm I'm struggling with anxiety or depression or social anxiety or whatever it is and then try to give them tools for that. It looks at it from a more holistic approach like what's really going on here and where can you show up for yourself and create safety for yourself inside? >> Right. And what is somatic work? >> So I I would consider IFS under the umbrella of somatic work because somatic is soma means body and it really means going into the body, right? And in the body is stored, you know, your your story from when you were born. And so somatic work there's there's different modalities. The most you know, known one is somatic experience from Peter Levine. And uh it's also it's got its own structure and and its techniques of how it works, but the it's the same idea which is that we're holding within our bodies, within our subconscious mind and and stored in our body everything that we haven't been able to hold, process and find safety with. So it comes with us wherever we go. >> Yeah, so so the question is why um because we know that everything is rooted in childhood. Why are we so connected to this childhood? Like every therapy and every uh is talking about we got to go back to your childhood and rewire or unwire what what What Why can't we just move on from childhood? Like, you know, it's like, "Okay, this is what happened in childhood." But everything goes back to childhood and we're so connected to it. >> That's an interesting question. There's actually um uh Bowlby's attachment science actually brings everything from the first 24 months. It's even earlier than than than other childhood modalities. And look, I mean look at children. They're so vulnerable, so sensitive, so open, so curious. And so, the nervous system of the child >> Right. >> which is learning what's safe and what's not safe is developing a story of how do you need to live in order to not experience suffering in the world, right? So, from from the basic idea of a child sticking their finger into a candle and into a flame and and and learning, "Okay, that's not something I want to do." They get yelled at or or embarrassed or told off or experience emotional pain, the the nervous system also creates, "Oh, that's not something that I would ever want to do." And so, you're basically developing a story that I'm not safe, right? So, if you create healthy attachment for children as they grow up, they learn that they can handle they can process and the nervous system doesn't store, right? That's called coregulation or being regulated. When that doesn't happen, which is common, you know, pretty much most children don't have perfect parents. >> Right. >> So, the nervous system develops a lot of stories of like how I need to I need to be safe, I need to protect myself, I'm not safe, and there's a lot of pain and I don't know what to do with it. And if you don't know what to do with the pain, right? If the if the body doesn't know what to do with the pain, it can't move it out, it can't be held. Then it gets stored. It gets stuck, right? So, if we're just giving an example. When a child is when a young child is um dysregulated nobody teaches them what to do, right? Nobody ever tells a child like, "Okay, when you're disregulated, like throw a tantrum or scream or yell." That's just a natural >> Right. >> It's you know a biological response. What can happen though is that a child does their natural response and then somebody says like, "Shh, be quiet. Stop crying." Or even to the positive, a child's expressing, processing, grieving, right, crying and you give them a candy to stop it, right? So, it's also a message of like that's not the appropriate way to to deal with pain. So, what ends up happening is is you have this story that a lot of people relate to which is that crying is embarrassing. Like I like you know, people they kind of want to hide if they're crying. It's like a shame like and that's learned in childhood. When you're when you're basically shamed for crying, right? >> Because everyone would tell them shh >> Yeah, yeah, don't cry. Yeah, like be quiet. Yeah, in public, exactly. Imagine a world where that didn't happen. Where like crying was never shamed or never or was never told like you know, you know, boys don't cry or you know, stop being a wuss or whatever. So, imagine that wasn't there then the body would continue doing what it knows how to do which is the grieve pain. Pain comes up and it moves through the body and there's a lot of science also, another um chapter about the healing that is provided for the body through tears, oxytocin and different chemical responses >> It's very very healing, yeah. >> Right, so the body knows how to made our bodies and it to be able to help us get through life and losses, right? It's stories that can override that that natural process >> We fight it is what you're saying. >> over we're stopping our own natural process and a lot of things I teach people is you don't need to learn how to do any of these things. You were born knowing how to. What you need to do is to learn how to take off the stories that you acquired along the way. >> In the IFS, the the word protectors >> Right. >> it flies around a lot. Yeah. So, give me an example of protectors, let's say an adult would have protectors. >> Sure. So, um I I some of the examples I said before protectors and managers are kind of I stories that you tell yourself like I am not smart enough to be able to do this or I'm not capable of keeping a job or I'm not capable of being successful or even a story of like like I don't I can't move into the frequency of abundance because like, you know, I it's it's dangerous, you know, I saw other people who have money and and they they they failed or they messed up or they Any any story >> good as the other person. >> as them or or I witnessed somebody else crash from wealth or suffer from wealth or do terrible things with wealth. So, these become stories and managers that are like, I don't want to experience those things. So, but they don't say to you or these and managers they don't tell you, you know, because you saw that I don't want you to do it. They just become stories that you that you >> Right. So, we protect ourselves from even go there. Like the protectors is we protect ourselves not to go to the wealth or like we're not taking this risk. >> Yeah, and I'll I'll just tell you ironically one of the most common managers, we can call them, one of the most common inner protectors that I find with people is actually not um you know, so much negative thinking, which is very common, but the fear of being successful, the fear of the fear of of seeing your good because and I and and one of the reasons is again going back to childhood, if you've ever believed in yourself and took risks and then were shamed or were hurt by it, then the manager comes up with a story that it's not worth it. Yeah, it's not worth it to take a risk. >> Wow. >> It hurts too much. And but but I want to go deeper. What's really happening is the fear of the future, so the things that you're afraid of happening in the future are actually projections of what you haven't been able to process from the past. So, anytime when we're when we're when I'm working together with someone and we are able to articulate and communicate the fears of the future, they're actually just screaming what is not yet processed from the past. >> Right. >> So, for an example, let's just say that a child loses a loved one, loses and and didn't have the ability to properly grieve and and process. They can develop fear of love. Fear of loving >> connection because they they don't want to connect because they're afraid that this thing is going to cost them too much. They don't want to go back to that pain that they had. So, they put up this this facade, this this fortress of not letting another person in. >> And and so, what I've learned is that the only real solution to that is to go is to go within the system, to go within the inner child work and allow the grieving to happen. And there's a IFS and other modalities allow have given us the tools to be able to bring people in their bodies to actually allow the emotional energy, which is actual frequency, it's actually still there, to to let it process. >> So, you'll have So, you go back and you heal that that was not healed years ago. >> the concept of chuva. There's no time. You can really go back and and you and you flip it that it never happened to begin with. Like there's no it's not there anymore. >> Now, let me ask you, codependency. Is this the root of codependency? How does codependency develop? Um is it from childhood? Is it from these kind of managers? >> That's a good question. The way I kind of like to explain codependency, if we take a step back, so we didn't talk about it yet, but when a child is experiencing overwhelm, right? Something that is too much for them, too much pain. So, part of our survival that we've been gifted with is the ability to disassociate. >> Mhm. >> Basically, to move ourselves out of our own story, to stop living in our own body, to create and that can happen for everyone in a different way. Um what I like to call that is you jump into the avatar version of yourself. You're moving into um the person that you need to live because you can't afford to live in your true body and your true self. And that avatar version is basically living on fear. It's right? If you you need to be safe, so you need to people please, right? And the And there's um four levels of dysregulation, four levels of uh fight fight flight freeze or fawn, depending on each person's uh temperament and how they develop their um their sympathetic nervous response. But in that avatar, you're basically living your life in need of oxytocin, which is love from other people. That's codependency. You need dopamine from the outside. You need something to stimulate you because you're not producing it cuz you're disassociated from your body, right? These things are all in the body. And you need oxytocin and serotonin, right? And so what's codependency really? It's the living in the avatar, right? You're like living in this You know, I I Let's give an example. Imagine your your car doesn't have a gas tank, but your friend has a gas tank. So, every time you drive, you ask him if he could drive with you and you put a hose that that pumps gas into you I don't you know, you have a little little little tank. It can't hold gas, but it could receive. You're dependent on him coming with you everywhere you want to go. And if he says he can't, then you're stuck, right? This is the avatar self. You need other people to see you, appreciate you, give you value to have it. You need other people You need other experiences to make you feel safe, right? But if the secret is you need to go back into your body. You have to come back home, right? >> This is the whole story of of the Adam and Eve, you know, this the sin is that he was removed from the garden. We're all just trying to get back. So, a lot of the work that I do is to help people uh come back home into their bodies. And awaiting them there the whole time is just so much love and pleasure and uh safety that it's there cuz it's the body Hashem made our body to produce these chemicals. So, codependency is basically if you're not living in your body, then you're going to need to get all that from somebody else. And then it becomes very, very hard because if those people don't give it to you, you it's like a death. >> Yeah. >> It's like it starves >> You're hungry. >> Well, you're hungry. >> But the But the codependent lives a fake life or no? They're just living an empty life. >> I I like to look at it that codependency is a byproduct of avatar living. So, if you're not living in your body, then you're you're codependent. It's just reality. The avatar body, which is the version of ourselves that we fabricate, that who we have to be cuz we can't be ourselves, it's it's impossible to be It's It's not sustainable. You need to have constantly other people telling you that you're okay, other people giving you everything. And so, if you're not If you're there, you're going to you're going to have codependency. If you're back in your body, you're back in your you're able to be in your body, you're able to be in your story, you're able to carry the pain, you're able to hold space for reality, you're able to properly grieve the five stages of grief through the things that you've been through, you see automatically like codependency just fades away. >> Mhm. But let me ask you the other side of codependency, which is narcissism Um let's say a person uh who has narcissism or a person who shut their feelings off completely. Can a person like this survive for 70 years without a problem? Like, I'm comfortable. I'm not thinking. I am frozen. I am cold. I just do my thing. I come and go. And I want to live like that. Detached from every emotion, from every feeling. And you know, you're creative, you make your life, you know, you you you wreak havoc left and right to the You wreak havoc on the people around you. But this particular narcissist himself says, "You know what? I I live a pretty decent life closed off. I don't want to feel. How about that?" >> Okay, so I I try not to see narcissism like the typical DSM-5 like the explanation of it. I I'll tell you something that I learned working for many years in in the residential rehab. Obviously, you can throw diagnosis all day at at people who are in really severe and I'm sure there were people who can be diagnosed as narcissists, but what I found is that literally no matter what. So, we're talking about murderers, scam artists, people who have destroyed everybody in their lives. >> These are psychopaths? >> So, sociopath or psychopath is the is the is the deep blockage of emotional connection to self. So, an inability to have empathy. >> So, you would say that every narcissist has a touch of psychopathy? >> No, what I'm what I am saying is that every single person that I've been able to work with in thousands of people over 7 years in in in the rehab setting I found the same exact thing in every single one of them is that when we went through this work to their child, there was just a wounded child, literally. There's not There has not been one person from the most severe >> Yeah. >> Again, I don't you I don't look at the diagnosis. I don't I don't kind of approach it that way. But, the most severe damaging version of self, if you go down to the bottom, it's just brokenness and detachment, really. That's really at the source of everything. So, what I try to do when I work with people is to show them their moment of detachment and provide them with the ability through the tools that we have to come back home. >> Correct, but isn't that a problem for because they have no introspect? Let's say the psycho the sociopath or the the narcissist is comfortable the way he is. He's not hurting. I mean, he's hurting emotionally, but he's mainly hurting other people who have the complaints, the codependents. But, um if he is comfortable in his in his shoes the way he is, you can talk to him about coming home a million times, but he's he's has no interest back. >> All right. So, two things. First of all, when somebody's coming to me, so they're at least at that level that they're reaching out. Of course, there are plenty of people that will never make a phone call to a therapist. So, that that's one thing. Also, the people who are in the rehab, at least I could say, "Look, you're here." >> Right. >> So, you're here. Whether you want to blame it on anyone else is and else is you are. I don't work with people on that level who are saying, "I'm fine. I don't need anything." It's unfortunate, but you can't force somebody. But, when someone shows up and says, "Look, I don't think I have hope." >> They have hope. >> Right. Right. That's what it is. Now, IFS is called family, has the word family in it. Does it deal with family issues? >> So, that's not Yeah, so a lot of people have that question. It's Richard Schwartz was a was a family systems therapist. And what he found is that just like there are different roles and different members of a family that play into the challenge, he found that within each person there's an internal family. >> Uh-huh. That's what he meant. >> It's not Yeah, it's not really like family systems. And so, a lot Yeah, a lot of times people see the word family and they they think it's >> Right. >> family systems. And it's he use he fit he shows that inside of yourself you have a kind of a family of parts. >> Right. So, you're mainly dealing with people who want to help themselves. They reach out to you and they say, "You know what? I'm not in a good place. I don't like where I am." And of course, there is a lot of help. But, what if those people deal with toxic people and you know, of course, they will work on themselves and they trying to come home and all the somatic, the body work. But, what happens if they're entangled with There's a business or it's family and they're entangled with people with with toxicity and usually the way it works that toxic people are taking advantage of the people who are sane because you're the sane one. So, you're the one who's doing all the work and they just keep on doing what they're doing. How is it How do How can you help a person who is on the right track, wants to come back home. He feels that, you know what, maybe there's a little bit codependency there and stuff like that. But, on the other hand, you're dealing with a person that doesn't doesn't work with you. >> Right. So, usually This is touching upon boundaries. >> Yeah, right. >> It comes back to everything I said before, is that when you are home, which is another way of saying that is when you're self energy, you're not as afraid to create the boundaries that you need to live a life you want. Usually, if someone's living in a toxic relationship where um they're experiencing uh suffering from that relationship. So, again, first of all, I want to differentiate between toxic relationships that are, you know, unhealthy and not safe. So, that's one category. In that case, often times, unless the other person can get help, you really do need to remove yourself from that person. But, let's move to the toxic relationships that the reason that they that they fester and that they exist is because the boundaries aren't being made by by the side that needs to say, "I'm not tolerating this." And sometimes that can just be enough to be able But, in order to do that, you have to really feel safe with yourself. Cuz if you feel you need somebody else, then you're afraid to make boundaries with them. >> never do it. >> Yeah, like if you if I need my boss to pay my paycheck, then I can never stand up for myself and say, "It's not okay what you're doing to me." But, if I can be trusted in myself that I will figure it out, then I'm safe enough to do that. So, it really all comes back to the same exact concept of self energy. >> is that if a person finds themselves entangled with toxicity, uh he has to take a good look at himself and see, "Where do you let this happen? And where do you not stand up for yourself?" And And And if you have difficulties, uh go come home. >> Exactly. In other words, it's avatar living. >> Right. >> If somebody if you're letting somebody al- um cause you to live a life you don't want to live, then you're not living in your self energy. You're living your avatar. And then, so the only way out is back home back home. It's all the same. >> Right. And how does a person who wants to come home and is doing the work and he's doing his thing and he is building himself up to a point that he can put down healthy boundaries. Um the doubt that comes into your head that maybe it's my ego, maybe it's Where's the the fine line between doubting yourself that that you're not, you know, doing this for personal reasons, you know? >> So it's interesting you're saying that because in IFS the self, right? The capital S self has eight C's and basically, I'm not going to go through them right now, but one of them is clarity. Usually, if you're not clear, you're not in self energy. So that's also an invitation to come to your self. Yeah, because when you're with yourself, you just you have this knowing, right? You're inside yourself. Hashem gave us intuition. Hashem gave us a lot of deep, deep ability to be non to understand what our truth is and the story of I don't know what's true or not is often times a byproduct of detachment from self. But again, the like it's it's really beautiful to watch. A lot, almost all challenges that people have emotionally and psychologically go away the closer you come to yourself. >> It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable stuff. Um I want to talk about respect, about disrespect. And people take it very personal. And what does that do to the nervous system? That if someone is disrespecting you and you're reacting or you're taking it to to the next level. With this kind of a model that you're displaying here with coming back home and and and finding yourself, how can someone handle a disrespect uh situation? >> I think again, I maybe I sound like I'm just saying the same thing, but it really is the same thing. >> we need to know this because it's it's the foundation. >> So, let's look at it. Let The example that's coming to mind is like anti-Semitism, right? So, let's say you're walking down the street and someone says, you know, um whatever, kill the Jews, Heil Hitler, you know. >> Yeah. >> Do you get offended? Do you get triggered? Or are you like like you're obviously like really must be a loser if that's that's what you like you do with your energy. You have to go put other people down, right? The safer you are with yourself, the closer you are to yourself, the more you feel your truth, somebody else putting you down, you shift from being triggered and offended to just being like like it's almost sad. It's like it's really sad. It saddens me that you have to be in such a toxic place, a negative place, but it doesn't hurt as much. And here's an interesting thing. When it hurts, it's actually an invitation for you to go deeper and create more connection with self. Instead of attacking the other person for hurting you, they're actually gifting you, right? They're bringing you a gift, which is they're showing you you're not enough. >> are away from this type of behavior, how distance you're supposed to be, it almost becomes a role model of not how not to behave. >> Yeah. Well, let me ask you a question. If you if you like to cook something, right? And you're and you think you're good and you create, let's say out of whatever it is, a a pizza. And you're eating it, it's delicious. You love you you put your effort in and you made homemade pizza. You someone else comes and says, "This is disgusting." You're offended? You start questioning yourself, "Wait, I just tasted it and it was good. Maybe maybe now that they said it's not good, maybe I was wrong." So, now I'm hurt. Are you like well, sad you don't get to appreciate what I'm appreciating because it's delicious. >> I enjoy it. >> Yeah, that's what it's when you when you're in your own self energy, you're not in the avatar. When you're in the avatar, you need other people to validate. So, when people criticize, it's a death. And it's it's like you know, unfortunately, there have been stories of teenagers committing suicide when they were bullied online. Someone told them there's was wrong with them. That's avatar, right? That's because when you're in your self energy, >> it shouldn't make a difference. >> Yeah, doesn't. >> You you're describing an I >> That's so we live in a world where you're either disconnected and you're in Gehenna. >> Yeah. >> And I I shared you know that um the Zohar and the Midrash Rabbah, right? That Avraham Avinu asked David to share that we should have Gehenna in our lifetime. And it says he said, "Okay." And it's through the the detachment that we experience the Gehenna and it it it puts us in a situation where if we make the right choice and we stay in that and we don't run away from ourselves, it's painful. But then you find self energy, which is what you call the Gan Eden, but I just want to clarify cuz I don't want to make it sound like it's so easy. >> Yeah. >> What usually separates the avatar self and the true self is a hell of a lot of pain. And and the story in childhood is I can't handle this pain. It's too much. It's too overwhelming, right? The pain of losing losing a parent or losing a loved one or parents getting divorced or being bullied or being what you know, abuse in any type of way. It's just unbearable, right? And so you your system blocks it off to protect you and that's a that's a gift. Then you grow up and you're and you're stuck outside of yourself cuz the pain's in your body. You can't come back home. So you're in the avatar self. You try to make it work. And every time you look out back at yourself, you see this you know, river of pain that you the story you have of that pain is the last time I felt it was too much. So it's a death. So you basically choose to stay in the avatar and suffer the Gehenna. Because you're looking at the pain and you're like, "It's too much." The secret is you're not the child anymore. Right? I'll give you another example. If a person doesn't know how to swim and they go into deep end of a pool and they start drowning, someone pulls them out and teaches them how to swim and they take them back into the same pool, it's not a problem anymore. >> Yeah. >> The pool's the same pool. >> Yeah. >> Didn't change. It's not like, "Oh, I can't go back into that pool because I was drowning in it." Yeah, but you were drowning cuz you didn't know how to swim, but now you know how to swim, so you could actually go in the same pool. You don't need a different pool. We can go back into the same pain and the same body once we realize that we've developed and we've grown and now we have the ability to have a therapist or a friend or support core regulation to help support you and hold you and and so therefore you could cross that river, you could come back home and then you could live the life you're meant to live in this world. You're not meant to be an avatar self. >> Wow. Now, what about people who would say, you know what? I want to keep the peace. >> Keep the peace? >> Keep the peace. So, if there's a manipulator or a an abuser and the person, you know, the person knows the truth. >> the war, not keeping the peace. >> Yeah, correct. >> Yeah. It's it's a it's a I I don't want to talk. I'm sure it's challenging. I want to be sensitive to that, but you're not keeping the peace. You're keeping the pieces. >> [laughter] >> You're keeping the separation, right? >> So true. >> When you when you Actually, it's interesting, you know, boundaries are powerful. When a person sets boundaries you know, not in a hateful way, it often times invites respect. >> Of course. >> connection. So, keeping the peace by shutting yourself down >> is doing it has an opposite effect. >> Yeah, you're you're you're not you're enabling the other person to stay toxic. You're also shutting yourself down, which is which is not allowing yourself to live your life. Everybody loses. It's the easier way. >> I have a funny question to you. People have um you know, um arguments and people have uh you know, problems in all aspects of life. And sometimes you hear people say, there's two sides to every story. >> Mhm. >> Now, you're living you're living your life and you're like I know the emphasis is with me. I know I'm doing the right thing. My heart is in the right place. And that other person is doing whatever they're doing and you're doing the work to whatever that work is to to become better person or to remove yourself if if that's necessary. Whatever the case is, but how does that person that person who really does the work, who really is open for ideas, who knows like you said before with clarity, how does he know he's in the right? And and and you you know, does he have to prove it to somebody or does he have to prove it for himself? How does he know that, you know what? I know what I know. >> It's a very good question. Um I think understanding that it's okay that somebody else can think that you're wrong. And that meant to be safe with that and not to try and live a life where everybody has to agree with me for me to feel safe. I think it's Just know >> it's it's a it's a concept of echad hu yachid v'rom >> Maybe. Sometimes. And it depends it depends what you're doing. It's like if you want to venture to try and do things differently, you're probably going to going to get, you know, pushed away and and and excommunicated. I'll give you Victor Frankl as the best example. I mean, he was a student of Sigmund Freud. He he spoke out to say, "No, it's not, you know, it's not about pleasure seeking, it's about meaning." And he was excommunicated. And there's a story with the Lubavitcher Rebbe who sent somebody to him and saying, "Don't give up." He was going to move to Australia. >> Right, I saw the letter. >> Yeah. Don't give up and be be be loyal to your truth. >> Right. >> And he did. And wow, did he affect the world, right? So, um we all have, I guess, like you said, an echad hu yachid v'rom moment in our life. >> Right. >> Um and again, I think it really comes down to looking within yourself. Is the person that's against you triggering pain inside of you? Then they're gifting you with the ability to become more whole and and and more true to yourself to hold space for whatever it is they're bringing up. So, then it's a win. And if it doesn't, so then what's the problem? So, it's a win-win. >> Right. Right. Unbelievable stuff. Um Now, you mentioned Victor Frankl and meaning and purpose in your work that you're doing and you see people in pain and they're coming out on the other side, what is the meaning that these people put to their lives just by becoming a different person and and how do how do they put meaning and purpose into their pain? >> Right. So, um that's a great question. Victor Frankl, you know, he has a lot that he that he shares. It's very very deep and um he I think that one of the things we could take away from Victor Frankl is that he really tried to show people that no matter what they're going through, they're able to see some kind of purpose in it. Whether that's, you know, the example that he told a a grieving uh I think it was a grieving husband that after the holocaust that you know, if one of you or your wife had to pass, the other one would have to grieve. So, look at your grief as you're doing it for her. Shoot. And then he found meaning in it. That's the story. Um I think it's the idea of the truth that the world we live in, we go through experiences. I I think everybody goes through painful experiences whether in childhood or in their adult life. And when you allow yourself to be in the pain and to not run from it, you often times find that the pain itself gives you the ability to taste the beautiful things in life. The pain itself gave you that gift. You could have been a very superficial person living, you know, in in in in very external levels of what a human is and the pain has this this way again, nobody should suffer. I mean, you shouldn't have to go through pain, but anyone who already went through suffering or pain, you I always say if you already went through the pain, cash it in. >> Yeah. >> Don't don't ask for it, but if you already went through it, well, how do you What does that mean to cash it in? Means feel it. Because pain is a very emotional pain and grieving is a very powerful force that helps dissolve the ego and this What is ego? It's sense of disconnect. Sense of fragmentation, right? So, we're basically suffering because we're fragmented from our truth. >> Right. >> And then there's this potion that's in the world called emotional suffering. It it takes away layers of that fragmentation and that thereby invites you into a life of unity. Connecting with people more, connecting with Hashem more, whatever it is, but being in a frequency of connection, you find something called post-traumatic growth. It's a science. And in that science, there's basically it was figured out. There was all these people that went through all these tragedies and they became happier after and they were like, "What's going on here?" The joy of being invited into the secret of this world that it that there's this vibration of connection. Sometimes people only get invited in through the pain that they're in. So, Victor Frankl was touching upon something. He's like, "There's meaning and purpose. Everything's there for a reason and you can go deeper and deeper into that." >> Mhm. Amazing stuff. Um so, what I'm hearing from you is that the reason why people are stuck in toxic relationships and why people will shrink themselves in order to please somebody else is always the answer that they are not home. >> They're not home? >> They're not home because uh it's it's in plain English is this called low self-esteem? >> Yeah, low self-esteem. Low self-esteem of self, right? You're not You're not being steamed by yourself. Low self-esteem. Yeah, it's You're not Because look, we we we we we we have the Torah, right? And and we're we're we know that we have a neshama. We have a soul, right? The soul is in us. It's We have access to it. It's connected to everything. It's infinite. So, if we're connected to it, if we're really in touch with our true self, then we're not we're not How can you have low self-esteem? That you're not identifying as your true self. But when you're in the avatar self, >> Right. >> which is basically Well, yeah. >> Then there you have an open door to anything. >> you're basically translating yourself in the in the version that other people said you are. So, if it be somebody else was angry and said you stupid kid or or or you know, whatever. And then you take on that identity and you carry that, you're going to suffer your whole life because you're constantly going to be looking for somebody that to just validate that you can be okay, that you even are allowed to exist, that you have some value, right? It's another thing a lot of people struggle with, which is the And I want to just mention it. That there human equity, the value is attached to accomplishment, right? This is something that the old model of pushing, you know, pushing for academic success without also explaining to the child that you have value without it, often times creates this disconnect between human equity and and and accomplishment. So, that means if you don't accomplish, you don't have any value. People stress themselves out and freak out. What if I fail? What if I don't make it? What if I take a job and I don't make it? And they And the fear is then I don't have any value, right? And a lot of the healing is it's also avatar self. The healing is to realize, no, you actually were born with value. And your value is valueless. >> Right. >> These accomplishments are ways of actualizing and offering the world something from your value. But that can get The message can get skewed. >> Sure. Now, what's the psychology of shame and blame? Why would a Why would a person uh as a child um blame themselves? >> I'll give you an example. It's very deep. This I discovered from working on this for for a long time. As a child, um you're only safe if the people that are keeping you safe are safe. That means if your parents are safe people at home then you're safe. But what if they're not safe? What if they're hurting you? >> Right. >> So for a child let's just give an example of a a parent who beats a child like but not in a healthy way at all abusive. So now the child has a choice. Either tell a story that it's that he deserves it that it's his fault that he's damaged that he doesn't deserve love. Why would you do that? Because what's the alternative? I'm not my father's crazy. >> Right. >> That's too scary. >> It's even more scary than than to blame yourself. >> Yeah. So blaming yourself I right it's a manager that develops and comes up in your mind it's like well let's flip the script quickly because otherwise it's petrifying to live in this house and you're a kid you can't just like walk outside and then and and rent an apartment. So a lot of blaming self is a way of protecting yourself from a reality that's too scary. And then we hold that on but the thing is when you grow up you can let go of that because now you're safe. This is a lot of the work we have to do. >> Wow. So it's it's basically 20 years of growing up and then for the rest of your life you have to undo >> undo what you do. >> What yeah because the I it seems to be that the first 20 years of what the brain developing is having a major impact on a person's life. >> Yeah. >> No we sometimes don't even get how how dangerous or crucial schooling parenting I mean it's it's all rooted in childhood. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm not a believer that we're in a failed world. I think that this is the Kabbalah. I try and believe that that we're kind of >> This is the >> messed up by design in order that we have to find ourselves. Like you know one of the one of the So I want to touch upon that. The biggest gift you can have in this world is you. Because you are a version of of Hashem that is you. You're You're You're the creation as you. Every person's unique. Now, if you just And I believe this very deeply, every person has a unique spark, unique light, and and, you know, um we're born very pure, very powerful. And it's very clear that very quickly most children get get uh damaged, broken. So, you could say it's an accident. But, it's the same concept in the Kabbalah is the Shvirat HaKeilim is the breaking of the vessels in order for us to fix it back. I think it's b'kavana. I think that we're in a world where we are being offered to find ourselves, but instead of it being given to us, we have to build it ourselves. The When people Ask anyone who's done any real healing work, you get to experience yourself the gift of being yourself. >> Yeah. >> It's the most incredible feeling, but you got to know that I built I built put this back together. I didn't just get given it as a gift, which is bread of shame. It's like I really had to figure out, like you said, my first decade or or two decades of my life I was being torn apart, and I had to take all the pieces and sit and put them back together, and I get to appreciate who I am and that I put the effort into to being who I am. >> So, let's say a child who went through a very hard time. Mhm, the blame and the shame, and unfortunately they didn't ask for it, but it happened. And the child shut down. You know, this is their mechanism. This is what they did. And they never go for help. Now, and, you know, to survive in society, they know how to get around, but um the people around them suffer immensely. >> Yeah. >> And so, this is a huge the again, the the the the they start using certain mechanisms to survive. >> Right. >> It's survival mechanism, coping mechanisms. So, one of them is silent treatment. Let's say. >> Sure. >> And they're using this on other people. >> Mhm. >> Now, what you're saying is that any um obstacle or any challenge that you have with a person, it's not that person. >> If it hurts. >> You're It can only hurt if it's pain in you. >> Right. >> Nobody can put pain into your body. >> Right. So, if you're affected by silent treatment, or you're affected by anything else, that means you have a lot of work to do. >> Yeah, and I want to just clarify you could be affected by it. I don't think you should be not affected by it, but depends on how you're affected by it. If it hurts so much, it means that you're longing for external connection. But, if you have safety within yourself, you could just have rahma and be like, "It's so sad that you are in so much pain that you have to shut yourself down." You could see through it. >> That is a beautiful level to be on. You know, it's it's it's uh it's to to differentiate the moves and the actions that you shouldn't get affected. [clears throat] >> Right, it doesn't happen overnight. It happens by recognizing that the pain you have in your body, the emotional pain that you carry, if you feel it, if you allow yourself to go through it, then you could be safe with yourself, and all these things, they kind of fade away. >> Right. Now, [clears throat] according to the modalities that you're using, is there ever a time that you can remove yourself from a situation or from people? >> You mean, are you ever allowed to do that? Is it mutar? >> Yeah. >> Um I'm sure, yeah. I mean, you can just be like, I you know, sometimes some I I I won't say that showing up is the right thing to do always. Sometimes people who are really unhealthy will actually use you as a crutch and and and take you away. I mean, I I'll I'll use myself as an example. I cannot always show up 24 hours a day for the people that I I show up to help with. >> Right. >> So, I'm I'm I am creating boundaries. And when they're in desperate need for help, I'm not a tala 24-hour hotline. Now, I will be honest, the first few years of my career I was so passionate about saving the world and helping everybody, I didn't notice myself going down in the process. Right? And so, I did lack boundaries, but you learn to have boundaries. People have to learn like you have to also show up for yourself. So, I think there's definitely times that you can remove yourself, but um I think in the context of what you're talking about, yeah, creating boundaries, saying I'm not available is healthy. >> Cuz sometimes you're dealing with people who don't want to change. They don't want to learn. It's not like change for you, they don't want to change for them. They don't want to grow. >> Yeah, part of the the the the byproduct of us being in a world of bekhira is that there will be a the bekhira to choose not to grow. >> Correct. >> And if someone's in that place, it's like, look, I [snorts] can't I can't I can't get brought down with you. If that's your choice, then I can't, you know, I cannot help you in that space. You have to make a decision. >> Right. Now, um sometimes you hear people saying after, you know, coming out of hard relationships or stuff like that. And also, I'm sure it's it's a safety mechanism. They have no expectations. I'm like, I don't expect anything anymore. Not from this person, not from that. Zero expectations. >> mechanism for not experiencing failure. >> Right. So, the question is, where is is is that mean throwing in the towel? No expectations means >> Um again, it depends on the exact context, but often times when people are in that I don't expect anything anymore, it's really that they don't want to feel disappointment. They just gave up trying to believe, trying to um you know, hope. >> It's one of those protectors and managers that says, you know what, I'm not expecting anything. But, it's it's more to the negative side. This is not something that you should expect, correct? Is it healthy to expect? Let's say if you're in a relationship with somebody or whatever. Parents and children and relationships that you put in a lot of years, you shouldn't expect anything. >> You should You should expect that if everybody shows up for themselves and if you can create the safety within yourself then you can expect everyone to change because if you understand the way the nervous system works the nervous system works by modeling, by copying the nervous systems around it. >> Wow. >> So, basically the parasympathetic sympathetic state. When a person who is in the who is in a position of providing [snorts] is in a place of safe nervous system, automatically the nervous systems that are receiving >> Right. >> go into their safety. When the nervous system of someone who's providing is in dysregulation, which is the the sympathetic state, the nervous systems around, right? So, that's why this is this is hard to hear, but parents who are dysregulated and try and put on a show by pretending to be okay the nervous systems of their children are directly getting the read from the nervous system. So, there's no there's no um there's no bypassing that. So, therefore if you can create safety in yourself, then yes, you can have an expectation that everybody's going to grow around you and it does work that way. It's a frequency. But if you don't do that, don't expect. It's just false expectations. >> Now, in relationships, um why do people smart people intelligent people um choose partners that they know they're not good for them? >> I don't believe that people choose partners that are not good for them. I think steeper than that, subconsciously we choose partners that we know will trigger us and push us to our own growth. >> Unconsciously? >> Subconsciously, yeah. >> Because what's happening is that while this is going on, they're like, "I'm in pain. I can't deal with this." >> Well, like I said before, right? So if you have unprocessed pain from your childhood and you marry somebody who enables you to stay unhealthy, it feels so much better. You have your pain, but you're not full, you're not whole. The Ezer Kenegdo model, right? Which Richard Schwartz has a book where he talks about the tormentors, that's what he calls it. The a mentor is someone who's mentoring you, a tormentor is someone who's tormenting you, but he calls it tormentor. Which is the same idea as Ezer Kenegdo, it's like if you can do work on yourself and you can show up for yourself and you can really heal then you'll notice that the often times that when a wife, when a woman is fighting a war against you, she's fighting a war against the version of you that is not your ultimate version. >> It's not the real version. >> She sees, right? Bnei Yisrael, the woman sees who you could be. They they have this gift to be able to see true masculinity, the power. And they see it and they see you not showing up to yourself. So they're fighting a war against the failed version of you. It's a gift. They're not allowing you to stay a failed version of you. If you can see that, then you see the gift that they're offering you every day, that every time you show up and you're complaining or you're you're acting in your in your lower self and they're fighting a war against that they're actually cornering you to grow up and to show up. Then you don't have to feel so uh you know, hurt by it. >> And why do some of us want to be fixers? We think that we'll fix the fix everything. We'll take care of it. Again if you're if you're fixated on fixing, it's probably projection. Which is uh it's too hard to see my own problems, so if I fix other people's problems, it saves me from fixing my problems. Um but that's not the only case where men are but have a problem solvers and we're we're we have that have but um learning to use it on ourself is a big gift before others. >> Yeah. How can a person see a difference from someone who is controlling and dominant to strength and leadership? There's a fine line between the two. Because a man is supposed to have strength and he's a leader and he gives himself off this way. But where is that fine line? >> It's a good question. Um you know, they say in the polarity work that when a husband wants to you know, take his wife out to dinner, the masculine way is not to say, "Where do you want to go?" but to say, "I booked us a table at this restaurant. Get your dress on. We're going." right? So that's that's like a healthy version of it. But I guess you can say the controlling version of it would be like the wife says, "I want to get pizza." Or you know, let's say chicken and and the guy's like, "No, no, no, we always do it your way. Let's do it my way." Like that's more like pushing. So in these kind of situations, you're asking a great question. It's really the energy. It's not about what the words are. It's like, are you are you trying to show up for somebody else or are you trying to stop somebody else from doing things cuz you're afraid that if they do it, they're going to do it the wrong way and that's control cuz control's fear. It's just fear. >> The guy who controls has fear. >> Fear. >> Fear of? >> Fear of his world falling apart if he doesn't control. It starts from childhood that when things fall apart, the manager says, "Well, if you can stay in control, you can protect yourself from all of this from happening." So you live a life of controlling everything around you. It's just fear. You're just afraid that something's going to go wrong. >> Right. So all these manipulators and all these people, they isolate, they all the tools that they have that they do Um, to to do it's it's fear. >> Fear. >> It's fear. >> Because you know why? There is only two frequencies in the world. >> Mhm. >> The Torah says [clears throat] "Ahavny Re'echa." There is nothing else other than fear or love. Love is expansion. >> Mhm. >> Love is creation, and fear is death, and fear is the shrinking of energy. You can't be in in between. So, if you're in love frequency, you're safe and you're providing. And you're giving, and you're producing, and you're being. If you're in fear, you're trying to survive, which is a lack of bitachon. Right? You're trying to >> Right. >> play God. You're trying to protect yourself, and so you're living in in fear energy, which just creates all the things you said. It's fear. >> What can If someone is in fear mode, can it look like love? Yeah, as far as control. >> Sure, it could look like love. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so for example, in a in a in a relationship, you can be afraid of losing it, so you just give love, give love, give love, but you're really just afraid, and then ends up not working out because you end up controlling. You end up pushing yourself, right? So, yeah, that's what that way. >> So, what is love? Explain love. >> Love is life. Life is love. >> Yeah. >> It's not a thing you have to get. It is the the frequency, the reality. >> But what is it? It says it's some sort of a a peace, some something something that you can't describe. What what word would you use? Uh >> Flow. >> Yeah. >> Flow, movement, like just is. What is is love. >> Yeah. What is a peace? Is it Hashem first? What is it? >> Yeah, it's it's anything when you're in truth, then you're in love frequency. And when you're in fear, you're in sinah. You're in you're in >> Shechinah. >> You're in Shechinah. You're in sinah. You're in death. You're in Yeah. >> So, with all you're saying that um you have the key for healing. >> I don't know if I have the key for you. >> No, but I mean to say you're practicing um these things. >> I I'll just say I learned when I when I had to face my own avatar self. When you know, you get married, you have children, and you see like oh all these things this version of yourself that you thought can take you to the end is it's it doesn't work. >> work. >> And you start to you know, you either go into addiction and dissociation and really unhealthy behaviors or you face the music. You really >> Right. >> you really go into your body and thank God I was blessed with my own people that I found to help me heal, to to guide me back in my body, and to feel the pain and it's it's it's it's it is it does seem to be unbearable, but it is bearable. And it it it's the pathway back into self and um beautiful things happen afterwards. You're living like you call it again and you're living in yourself. You're flowing with love energy. You're safe. You're not looking for anything outside of yourself. You're just being. You're trusting that Hashem put you in Hashem in this world and you're allowing that channel and that talent and that flow to come into the world. You feel the the pleasure of being a conduit for truth and you're no longer living in all the things that we we just spoke about. I was able to you know, I'm in the I'm still in the process. So I think I never ending process was able to get through that like big big period of of sitting in the pain. I try to just offer that to other people, really, to invite them back into to reality. >> Now explain us how this healing looks like. Like what is Give us a little glimpse of therapy what it looks where you can take a What does it mean coming home? >> So the nervous system kind of has this lock where it locks you out of yourself, right? And when you try and come back in, it throws like panic often times panic attack to try and like kind of block you from getting into the pain. When people do real transformative somatic healing, energy healing, it often times looks like a like shaking and screaming and crying and sweating and and tremors and and sometimes, you know, people fall on the floor and you know, you hold them. It's it's real deep energy moving through the body. It's real stuff. It's not >> it's because you speak to them? You speak to their subconscious mind or >> What what I try and do what I try and do is create the safety in the nervous system. So basically the sympathetic state is like fear, threat, you're you're feel that the pain inside of you is threatening. The parasympathetic is safe. So if you can get people into their parasympathetic state during healing, that they feel safe enough to hold the pain and carry the pain. And you also create the safety with them. And um get it's like um and Peter Levine talks about the the animals that that they were they were observed that when they go into trauma, right afterwards, immediately after the the danger goes away, when there's a dangerous experience, they shake it off. They literally they like you watch them they do the shake and then they just go back to like calm. And he explains that humans don't do that because we get we get locked in the story that's still happening. So the work that we're doing, I call it Gole healing. Right? That we now have in the world. It's Gole healing. Right? It's something that we now have that we didn't have before. Moving from talk therapy to body work, to body therapy. This is um shaking off the trauma, shaking it out of your body. And and we know that and the Torah talks about Hasidus talks about the body being very holy and the body being like a base of mikdash and the body being iker less of the love of it. And so we're seeing that the work's moving to the body to really clear it out. And it holds and stores a lot of trauma, but you can move it through. >> Wow, it's it's amazing stuff. And how does a person identify uh which parts he's avoiding? So let's say you're in the middle of working with that person and and the person is on the floor. What am I avoiding? >> So it's a great question. So IFS has its own way of like finding parts and and identifying parts and that works a lot of times. But also a lot of times just getting to that safety, going into your body and just waiting and just inviting and just saying, "Where does it hurt?" Sometimes people will say my shoulders are hurting me. Go deeper. What's What do you feel? And it's like oh I'm I feel this and you follow the energy of your body and kind of just get in touch with it. A lot of times it tells you. The body's telling you it's own story. It's like this is what I'm carrying and I never let go of it. >> Do you put him into some kind of surrender first because the person is so frozen bottled up? How does he surrender to that mush? That he can >> This is the beauty of understanding the nervous system, neuroscience, polyvagal theory, you know, understanding how the nervous system works. You create safety by me being safe in my own nervous system first. Go into that energy flow and we we kind of mirror nervous systems and that softens the body's protector and then we go in. It doesn't always work. People sometimes people need uh breath work or other types of modalities that are out there to to to help them break through the walls, but often times you don't even need that. >> But it's surrender has a lot to do with it because if a person is not used to this >> It's scary. Scary stuff. People are petrified to surrender because you've told yourself for so many years that if you stay hyper vigilant and stay in control you're going to be safe and now someone's saying let go. Just go into just let go. You let go of all that. It's It's like you know, I It's like walking off a cliff and trusting that someone's going to come catch you in a minute. >> Yeah. And um how does it feel when a person comes back and meets himself the first time? >> I mean, I'll just tell you I had in the rehab a story where a guy wasn't eating and it was like a few days and he was so nervous because uh like the anniversary of of someone he lost was coming up and he was just going into panic and and trigger because he he's he's afraid of feeling the pain again. And um we did some real deep work and somatic release and he came back. I went outside into the cafeteria and he was just eating. Like his appetite went right back online. A lot of times the things that people suffer with lack of appetite, lack of lack of um you know, libido, a lot a lot of these lacks that our bodies have are really trauma responses of basically being dissociated. When you come back home, everything comes back online. It's cool to living. You're coming back alive. You take You can hear a sound outside something like, "Oh, the birds. I never heard the birds before." Or you taste food you're like, "I never tasted food where I didn't realize I didn't see you." A spouse can literally see their spouse for the first time when they're really like, "I never I really noticed you were there I you were. I was only living in my head, you know?" >> So, people can live their lives for years and and and and I don't know where they live, but not here. >> They live in the place they needed to live in order not to live in their body. And they'll stay there until they get invited back in. >> But, it's not It's not life. It's It's a Life is a gift that uh not a lot of people uh experience. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's It's a not a lot of You're not so Yeah. Not a lot of people actually experience life. And they're waiting for Mashiach to come, so they'll they'll finally be able to not realizing that you can come into Mashiach instead of Mashiach coming. >> That is amazing. That is amazing. You know, people always say, "I'm a human being. I'm just a human." What is a human being? >> Okay, so now that's another whole talk, but a human being is is a nice story. It's a story, you know. >> We tell ourselves stories. >> A human being is is the story that you collected over from when your consciousness went online of what your limitations are. You create something that's called a human being. It's all lies. I mean, I I shouldn't say it's all lies. There are I mean, you you got to like follow certain laws of nature to survive, right? But, those are just to keep your body intact, but you're You're a body. You're an infinite being operating in a body, and you're both. And as soon as you operate only as one or the other, you're not a human being. >> Right. Now, all these things that you're describing over here is affecting every part of your life. Which means it will affect your marriage. >> Oh, yeah. >> affect you in the business. >> Yep. >> It will affect your relationship with the kids. You know what's interesting is that they say marriage is not about, you know, receiving. It's not about investigating what you want. It is about what are you willing to give in? Does that make any sense? >> It does, but I want to go even deeper. I think marriage is about experiencing. >> But the expectations that people have from the other person. >> Right. So, if you're experiencing somebody else, then you get to experience them. If you're trying to take something from them to fill a void in you, >> That's where the problem begins. >> then then then now that's back to the Avatar codependency, and that's where all the problems come from. But to celebrate and experience someone's existence is the most pleasurable thing. >> Right. Because a person would ask, why do I need to give in? Why do I need to change to go against my grain? Because this is what marriage is all about. Why can't I just two people come together and just like live life? >> You can. And it's not by giving in. It's by each person >> knowing who they are. >> Knowing who they are, and and I hate to say it. Apologize to all the men, but it the masculine, the man creates that safety for the woman to go into her feminine. And to be received. And to receive and be received, and to have that intimate experience. >> Right. >> It's the same thing with you and your and your life. >> Right. >> To experience your life. >> Right. >> You have to be able to be present with it. Same concept. >> What about the concept that people personalities that people are saying, this guy is a sensitive person. The other one is not so sensitive. Is there some truth to it, or everyone has feelings and emotions? It's just some people are not home. >> I don't know if I have any proof for what I'm about to say, but I do believe that some children are born with more sensitivity than they're more, you know, they they do they do soak things in more. They're more empathetic. They're, you know, and maybe that's the way Hashem created certain people to be able to become healers and then different things. But yeah, I think there's um but the fact that you're sensitive, I think you could flip it. It's not so much that therefore you need to be able to have everyone around you treat you better. I think it's that you're you're you should look at that as a gift Hashem gave you to be able to show up for people because you were able to feel more and that's your mission in this world. >> Use what Hashem gave you. >> Yeah, you're sensitive, you're more in touch versus when you're more rough, you probably should become a general in the army, you know, not necessarily a therapist. >> Do whatever you want to do with your calling. Yeah, you're you're you look at yourself like Hashem made me this way, so >> like I was very very sensitive. I always felt everybody. I always felt that and I used it I'm moving it to use it in the career. If I was more, you know, aggressive, I'd probably be in a more aggressive uh job. >> Now, let me ask you something. If a person is not home and the person is is is, you know, living in a in a in a freezer box, does that um disconnect you spiritually spiritually from Hashem? >> There Yeah. You your soul is Hashem. >> Right. >> So, when you're disconnected from yourself and you your avatar self, Hashem is this made up thing because it's disconnected from you and that's not truth. >> Right. >> As you as he calls in the Peter Levine calls, as you thaw, right? Take out you take your your you're out of the freezer, you take something out of the freezer and you leave it, it starts to thaw. As you thaw and your nervous system softens up and you come back into your body, you become one with your truth and usually that's your spiritual truth and you feel it. It's not something anymore you're looking for people to convince you or anything like that. >> What is your deepest lesson that you learned in your practice from people that that uh overtook you? >> I think the deepest lesson I learned, especially in the rehab, when I would be working with people that were like uh you know, the the the most horrific people done the most horrific crimes. And I was shocked to see that they're just an innocent child so broken. And it really really spoke to me. It was just like That doesn't mean that that they don't need to make good choices and they shouldn't be charged for their crimes and maybe they need to sit in prison for the rest of their life and maybe even they need a death sentence. I don't know, but either way, it's it you see that really everyone starts off pure and innocent and a lot of times pain and horrible things that child children go through can create a monster. So so so like the Barbara Trevino always said, don't just invest in building more prisons, invest in educating children. Don't just invest in how to to to to take down criminals, which is important, but go deeper. If we can if we can get to the children and create safety, we automatically get rid of all those problems. >> And that makes your work even more important. What you saw over there that you saw a child, you saw a person, a human being can stoop [snorts] so low and then on the other hand how high a person can be, you know, how you how you can better yourself to a point that you come to a certain level that makes your your your your work so meaningful. >> Yeah, it does. And um yeah, I mean, the message I think everyone don't judge yourself so harshly. Have compassion for yourself. And instead of focusing all your energy on on looking at your bad, look at your innocence, look at your beauty. And remember that you you you you have purity and and go back and and hold space for that. And uh and move in that direction instead of feeling so terrible about the things you did wrong and then that just creates toxic energy with you and other people and it doesn't really reward anybody in the end. >> Now, final question. >> Mhm. >> Who is your role model? >> The Lubavitcher Rebbe. >> Wow. How did he impact your life? >> Um I grew up uh in Canada. My parents were sent on shlichus by the Rebbe and we would go uh from when I was born a couple times a year. And uh I I didn't know it till many times later, but he just it it you know, I I obviously didn't understand as a child, but just the Rebbe was a real tzaddik. >> And how was his school? How was his school? >> did something to me. I don't know. Just his energy transmitted his nervous system. I don't know what it is. He just He really left an imprint in me that that um that went so deep that even though after his Gimel Tammuz, after he passed and I was there that day and my father walked me by his body wrapped in a tallis on the floor and I had the I remember that. I'll never forget that. Just seeing the death of of Superman. The death of everything I believed to be true. The death of of >> [snorts] >> of my savior, of someone who was going to make my life okay and it just shattered. Soon after that I um I slowly like went off the derech and like I I I I went into avatar living from a lot of other things, too. But his impression upon me was so strong that eventually just felt pulled back in with the love. And eventually I studied. I wanted to see and and as a therapist and as a healer I'm shocked and blown away at how everything that I'm discovering it was already there. It's all there, you know. And and and and yeah, I'm a very open about being like a crazy fan of the Rebbe. >> Wow. >> And and I'm open and people my clients know. I bring him I I >> You You bring in the >> I share the Rebbe to everybody, you know, the the the the energy that that beautiful energy, that love energy, that I like to say that Hashem sent the Rebbe to this world to give us a hug. >> Right. >> Hashem's hug. Hashem wanted to hug us, so he gave us a physical hug. It's not like Hashem can't come and hug us. >> Right. >> And the Rebbe came to give us all a hug at the end of this long long journey of golus, just unconditional love and hug. >> In your work, in the somatic work or in the other work with you doing, is do you speak to your clients about Hashem? Are you bringing in Hashem into equation? >> I I do sometimes. I I try not to look at it in like a dogmatic way, like Hashem. I try and bring them into I try and use pesukim and different things. If they're open to it, and if they're not, I respect them, but I I I ask, and oftentimes people are like, "Yeah, please." You know, or I'll share I'll share chassidus and different things, yeah. If they want it, but I'm not I don't >> Because you were saying there was a time that you were disconnected. Right. Right. Right. But you were saying there was a time that you were disconnected. And at that time you didn't want to hear, right? Um I didn't know what I was trying to figure out >> what I was trying to figure out how everything that I mean, there's another whole podcast, but I was try I was trying to figure out I like how all the hate and all the judgment, how does that align with a loving source? And so, I had this confusion, but I had to find it on my own. >> Yeah. Wow, amazing amazing stuff you share with us today, Shneur. Uh you remind us that each and every one of us has a story. Everybody has a history. Everybody um has something in our lives that shapes us. I hope you know that the message that you're taking away today is that you're not alone. There is help out there. >> Yeah. >> This is the most important thing, and the human mind is not your enemy. We have to know this. Don't fight Don't fight your own your own mind. I want to thank you for your wisdom. >> Thank you for having me. >> I want to thank you for coming in and sharing and the willingness to guide people into into courage. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. >> No problem. >> Thank you. >> Okay.