The Man who Brings Hope to the Forgotten - Rabbi Aaron Lipskar,CEO of Aleph Institute

boy turns to his father, that teenage boy, and he says, "Listen to me, Dad. If you ever talk to me like that again or tell me what to do, I will take you off my call list and I will never ever visit you again." There is approximately 3 to three and a half thousand Jews that are in in prison. This warden, he picks up his his feet and he was wearing big boots with spurs and he puts them on the desk and he looks at him. He says, "God, in here I'm God and I say there'll be no kosher." >> The Olaf Institute. How do they help out the families of the incarcerated? Like as far as camps, rent and gifts >> an orphan, people pity them, the children of somebody who's incarcerated, they get judged. Uh he was able to be there to put on film with his son and to celebrate and had that day to be with his family and of course had to go back after. And it was overheard this little boy telling a friend of his, "You see, I told you I have a tati. I wasn't lying to you." Uh, as the motto of Olive is, no one alone, no one forgotten. >> This episode is sponsored by Candid Recruits. Candid Recruits serves the tri-state area. Are you a business owner? Are you an employee? Are you looking to hire or are you looking to find a better job? Call Candidate Recruits. They are connecting the right people with the right jobs. They have over 300 successful hires already. They are vetting every employee to the highest level from white collar to blue collar to everything in between. And the best part of candidate recruits is they charge a flat fee versus the other agencies who charge 25% of the salary. So do yourself a favor and reach out to candidate recruits at 8458289210. Call now. Okay. Um today we are stepping behind the walls of prison. Um our [clears throat] guest today is Rabbi Aaron Lipker. He is uh the chief executive officer um of the great organization the ALF Institute. The ALF Institute for decades has been the lifeline for a lot of people in prison um and and for Jewish prisoners um and their families. The ALF Institute also provides um services for military personnel. Amazing stuff. Um and for their families, families who are torn apart uh because of incarceration. So the ALF Institute is an amazing amazing organization. Rabbi Lipker uh has walked through the cell blocks and sat with the broken. Rabbi Lipkar, welcome to the struggle podcast. >> Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here with you and uh to speak to your uh audience and I'm hopeful that uh what we can share today and discuss today uh will shed some light on this environment and the struggles that those that we work with face and some of the things that we do to try and alleviate those issues. Um and I look forward to uh to sharing what I can and hope that it will have an impact. >> Excellent. Excellent. And thank you. I appreciate you coming in. So before we start first I want to establish the idea of mitzvah pian shim first we have to understand whatever is happening people are incarcerated and whatever they did it's not our job our job is to not judge or that's why we're not the judges our job is to help whatever whatever hashem's whatever she's ways and they ended up where they ended up but from our point of view from Olive's point of view is mitzvah pity and shimm. Correct. >> Absolutely correct. And as we'll talk, you know, we'll we'll get into some of the different types of services and programs that we provide. Um, obviously there are uh certain restrictions that we have uh in providing these things. But as a fundamental starting point, as you mentioned uh for any for any person that finds themselves in this situation incarcerated or facing the criminal justice system, as you said, our job is not to judge them. Our job is not to determine guilt or innocence. Our job is to be there to support them. Uh and uh we'll discuss the different ways that we do that. >> So we know that um you know uh a is what what what it's all about. And um is forgiveness coming in here because sometimes there's um crimes that people are like he belongs in prison. This is what he did. And you know everybody is like you know has their own opinion but uh does forgiveness come in in in in your organization the way you look at people is you literally do not want to know what is behind the story of every individual. Well, certainly we have to understand each individual situation and the case and uh in many of the programs and things that we do, there's a lot of mitigation that goes into understanding the person, their background, their family situation um and how this situation played out. Not because we're looking uh just to have information, but when we advocate and we'll talk about in the courts uh with concepts of alternative sentencing or when we advocate with the government for other types of relief, uh it's important that we're able to present the full picture of who the person is. Uh unfortunately within our criminal [snorts] justice system um when it comes to uh the sentencing of a person for an alleged crime or what they found they've been found guilty in the court of law um part of the issue is is that the court and the law only looks at this one act or this set of circumstances that uh the person is facing the sentencing. um our job and our objective is to try and show that there's a whole person behind that. There's a whole world behind that. There's a whole family behind it. And to bring some perspective beyond what you might call an anomaly, this behavior which may have been completely out of the ordinary or caused by a certain set of circumstances um which led them to this situation. >> Wow. It's it's amazing amazing work. Now you are the nephew of the the the founder of of u prabal lips. Now this was his brainchild. What is the story behind uh how did Olaf even start? So the history of Olive is uh goes back to approximately uh 1980 1981. Um and it was in fact uh the labba who um spoke passionately beforehand and regarding this matter and uh at a particular fabangan the week before um my uncle Raash Lipkar Shalom who uh you said it was a founder of this uh program was uh communicated to the Reb that he was working on certain things and certain different projects and different ideas and the Reb gave him an answer that will give you the right idea will give you a good thought of where you should put your efforts. Uh he was in between a few different things. uh he was also at the time close to starting the shul of bal harour and at at that particular fabangan the rebba spoke very very impassioned about the plight of yeden that find themselves incarcerated and that at that time there was a lot of k being done people going out as we know with kabad into the streets of yidden to find them and the spoke that we're doing all this work searching for yeden but there are thousands of yidden unfortunately sitting and waiting that somebody should come to them >> and nobody even spoke and nobody even thought about that before. >> You know, there were some small things that were were done but not on a on a mass scale and uh he heard that message and it resonated deeply with him. Uh the story actually goes that the way that the rebangans would be recorded there were the there were those that after Shabas would sit together and review and those with tremendous photographic memories and go through the fabans and write everything down and submit it to the rebba for for his uh comment and for his overview. And at this particular uh time my uncle was there that much shabas and he mentioned this piece and others didn't really pick up on it. There was a room of thousands of people that day and nobody really picked up on it but he heard it and he wrote into he said uh this idea that he's going to start this program. Um the Reb gave him a beautiful warm answer. He said thank you very very much and that's really where it started. uh in the early days um the first place because he lived in Miami is he started to make arrangements to go and visit uh with a group of uh Jewish men that were incarcerated in the prison in Miami. And at the time it was a fairly large group. There was uh 25 or or closer to 30 people that were there. And he started a pro a a schedule that he would visit with them uh once or twice a week. Um and then he would also spend time connecting with their families and um as maybe your your listeners know uh he was a very very powerful and impactful teacher and uh within a short time he really had a deep impact on this group of yidden and uh they they they wanted to start to to transform their themselves bring themselves in terms of their yiddish kite >> and uh this is a fascinating story actually. Mhm. >> Um so he they they they started with film and with Davin and teaching them and it came a point that they wanted to start keeping kosher. So at the time uh he went to speak to the warden of the prison. Uh the warden's name was K Cohen but with a K not with a with a you know like a ken. And what was his big his big was that his father was a warden. Isa was a warden. This was you know a real tough southerner. >> [snorts] >> And um he goes into the warden's office and he says, "You know, I would like to discuss about creating a program where we can provide kosher to the Jewish men that are here." And uh he asked him, he said, "Rabbi, why should I give them kosher food? Why should I do that?" So he remembers, he would recall, he said he looked around and he saw that on the walls of the office were all these Bible verses. there's so he figured this is a deeply religious man [snorts] and uh maybe if he you know approaches it from the idea that it's in the Bible and it's a biblical commandment and God commands Jews to keep kosher. So he attempts to uh say this he says he'll never forget this warden he picks up his his feet and he was wearing big boots with spurs and he puts them on the desk and he looks at him and he says God in here I'm God and I say there'll be no kosher. That was the story. Now there's a uh something which they call diesel therapy or diesel treatment in the prison system where uh at any time there are many many uh federal uh inmates that are in transit being transferred to different prisons for whatever reasons that they're being moved and they call it diesel treatment because in many instances even if a person is moving one state over or not that far sometimes they put them on a long transport they handcuff them they shackle them on a bus and they can end up in a county jail and they can end up in a in a in in a state prison till they get to where they're going. It could be a whole it could be months and it's it's it's a terrible terrible uh thing the way they keep them shackled that way. But the story is told, they called it the Tuesday massacre. The Tuesday massacre was that next Tuesday morning, these 25 to 30 Jewish guys were woken up, rounded up, and this warden decided, I'm going to break up this this this this Jewish group. Enough is enough. and he had them all designated to different prisons all over the country. And uh but what happened what happened was these different guys each ended up going ultimately to different federal prisons. But along the way, they stopped at many county jails, uh, state prisons, and wherever they would end up, they would meet other yeden in many of these places, and they would tell them, "By the way, there's a rabbi in Miami that if you need help or if you want to learn or if you have a problem, you should reach out to him." So, this was almost like the grassroots effort. So I don't know if we if we say that this this anti-semit warden or the people that were in prison themselves were really the catalyst for for this growing. This is way before you know email blasts and text messages and WhatsApp. So within a very short time there was literally hundreds of correspondents and letters coming in to the office in Miami and within a very short time this you know work was being done in in hundreds of locations. And that's kind of a little bit of of how it all started. >> Wow. It's a fascinating story. Now, how did you come came up with the name Olive? Uh >> so Olaf was uh you know thought about um and different uh Jewish uh symbols were thought about. A man is always you know a Jewish symbol, a a a mugandid. There's different things that could be recognized that this is a Jewish program. But an olive, who knows what an olive is? An olive is somebody that learned olive. What's an olive? Right? >> But it's also um for a few other reasons. If you take the word ga which means exile and you add an olive you have the word gula. And the idea here is to bring redemption to people. Wow. >> And um and also the construct of the olive. Uh interestingly I have to uh mention today is um which is the birthday of as we say is which was the alterba the balata and the bal >> his birthdays are today we'll me share a few things about that and and the significance of how it relates to alf uh the alf institute but in the construct of the letter alf you have the yud which is on top you have the yud which is on the bottom and you have the line which is in the So we say the on top is the is hashem the on the bottom is the yid and the line in the middle is the so when we can connect yen through even if they're on the bottom we can connect them to the top which is so olive has that powerful and in fact the the reb one time mentioned at a at a dollars somebody went by and mentioned that they work for olive and the rebb commented and said that the alf is as the first letter of the alf is a veiser it's a load star it shows the way to all the rest of the letters. So that's you know the the where we talk about the pint connected through olive. So those are some of the reasons that olive has that >> beautiful beautiful meaning behind it. I love it. So it is fair to say that the ALF Institute is fighting loneliness and uh we heard this from your uncle also that he was saying that uh that is probably the the most the the place where you can find the most loneliness. If a person finds himself behind bars and he's leaving behind the community and a family, you don't get more lonely than that. >> It certainly is. And even within the structure of the environment, sometimes people speak about what they consider, you know, nicer prisons, more comfortable prisons, a camp or there's other people there, a sense of that sort of community. Uh but just in fact, you know, a short few weeks ago, I was speaking with uh with with a person that was uh scheduled to go the following day to report uh to a prison camp and uh you know, hearing his struggle and speaking with his family, with his wife of of of what he was facing. But then just to hear from his children afterwards just as they watched him, you know, their their 60 plus year old father kind of walking into the into the into the environment having to leave all of his personal things. Um and going in there that it you become a number. You become a number and that's how you're identified. Uh you know many of these environments they don't refer to people by their first name. They refer to them as inmate or they refer to them as now that's less politically correct. they say incarcerated person or by their number. And so the sense of loneliness and disconnect uh especially uh in a environment such as with yeden that our our lives are so intertwined and connected shabas yumpt every single day um minan whatever it might be and even if in some of these places they do provide it but in many places it could be an individual person um and that sense of of of being alone and that sense of insecurity uh and not knowing uh and not even sometimes having the ability freely to have uh communication to the outside. There are emails, there are other opportunities, there are phones, but that sense and then certainly there are punitive types of uh punishments which we've actually been addressing at great length recently with the Bureau of Prisons and in other environments which is the idea of solitary confinement. >> Solitary confinement is just >> inhumane. Inhumane inhumane. The punishment is is is inhumane. The humiliation also is is is this designed uh to humiliate a person to is you know because you they're calling it correction rehab. Is this a punishment or is this a rehab? >> So you know it's interesting you say correction because that is the name of the environment supposed to be a correctional environment. Um and Barashem through great efforts you know we've been able to introduce more and more uh positive programming and learning and teaching and opportunities but generally the environment is not a corrective environment. It's an environment which uh just houses warehouses people and uh places them in what you might say like a suspended animation. They have no control over any aspect of their day. when they wake up, when they go to sleep, when they eat, what they do, it's all regimented and they have no control over that. Uh you mentioned about correction, the the the idea of uh being in in solitary confinement. Uh it's used unfortunately as well even just as the threat to say oh you know you do behave like this we'll lock you up and insult just and just the trauma that that causes a person having to think about that or knowing others that have have have gone through that to sit alone in a 6x4 cell with nothing else for for 30 days for 60 days for 90 days. >> How does someone stay sane in a place like that? >> People unfortunately do break. There are other people that will tell stories of how they found an inner strength within themselves that they never understood that they had. Um but the long-term damage and effects on people is something that they they live with uh long after they're out. >> This is supposed to be a punishment in a punishment which means you know being in jail is a punishment enough being in prison and then this is the way they feel that this is how they can control the the the prison system. >> Absolutely. Now, what you guys are talking about, we'll talk about it soon about the CARES Act and the First Step Act. Um, what other alternatives do you recommend when you go and you lobby for these things? Um, you know, as far as sentencing and talking about solitary confinement, what do you offer? Like, what kind of recommendations do you have as far as not being so strict with punishment? Well, for starters, just backing up a little bit, um you know, one of the uh areas that we work in, one of the departments that we have is called an alternative sentencing department. Um I believe was, you know, one of the people that that that run that program for us, Brriski, he was just uh featured in in one of the AMI magazine talking a little bit about what he does. The objective of that is um as we are living in a society today which is becoming more mindful of criminal justice and looking at criminal justice reform uh to seek alternatives to incarceration or only incarceration and that's what I mentioned earlier that obviously there are certain the nature of certain crimes where this would not be possible for us to advocate but in the event that this is something which is a nonviol island first time white collar offense. Something which we can propose uh an effective alternative which the effective alternative is not to minimize the damage, not to minimize the responsibility, not to minimize um what may have been done wrong but to talk about a constructive way to address this person. Um and we bar have seen a lot of success with that. uh beyond advocating for the individuals in the p in the uh individual cases in the courts, we also uh do a lot of work reaching out to the judicial environment and to the legislative environment, other environments. Uh we've had opportunities um with [snorts] some of the people that work with us, some wonderful attorneys that work with us and give of their time proono to uh to to give testimony in front of the sentencing commission uh to talk about uh these draconian sentences and different ways to advise judges because uh there was a period of time that uh sentencing was advisory. uh judges had the discretion obviously there's a scoring system based on the different elements and then judges you know are given a uh recommendation by the probation to say this is it should carry this length these amount of months to these amount of months. Um then there was a period of time uh where it became mandatory. judges did not have that discretion but now they have that discretion again and we work both directly in the courts but also uh we host uh very large uh summits uh approximately once a year maybe every year and a half uh at some of the big leading law schools in we've done it at Colombia we did it in uh in in DC at George Washington and other places where we bring together hundreds of jurists um different judges prosecutors lawyers lawyers and all different types of individuals that are are focused on this on this issue to talk about what alternatives exist. Many courts have created alternative types of programs and to try to expand those. Um but everything is very very specific and tailor made to the individual to the nature of what the offense is. Um it's very restrictive in many instances. As I said, it's not to alleviate um the culpability, but it's to create a productive opportunity for this person to uh repay what they've done uh to society in a more productive way than just being locked away and uh for a certain amount of time. >> Wow. Now, what would you say? How many Jews are in prison as we speak? If you would say, you know, a number. So I would say at this point um it may you know not be as many as people think maybe not as unfortunately not as few but I would say that there's approximately 3 to three and a half thousand Jews that are in in prison >> scattered >> scattered all over uh you know the federal state county systems all over >> you're talking about the United States >> in that case I'm talking about the United States since you mentioned that um in recent years uh we also have an international division >> because I know you guys were involved olved in Bolivia with this uh with Shan Pen and this you were you were behind all this uh there was some crazy story going on over there. >> It was a crazy story. It's a very fascinating story how it all played out. Um but that you know we we were involved in in that case in Bolivia. Um it was through our efforts Bashkar Pratis was somebody that we met uh that uh we we actually got to Shaun Penn uh because uh you know the story is that um you know I had the opportunity I was visiting with our office in California. We have an office in in California. you have an office in New York because our people operate all over the country and this case had come up and um it was very fascinating because it was Khan time >> and uh there's a famous actor uh in Hollywood um who has a history he's connected to the criminal justice system and he's very passionate about it and he's you know very devout in his way >> and uh somebody that uh the person that I work with in California had met said I know him I can introduce you to him So, uh, it ends up that we ended up going to his house, uh, and we spent time with him and he was very, very intrigued by the work that we're doing and, um, he committed himself to help in any way if he could. >> And, uh, at that time we were dealing with this situation in Bolivia. Uh, just to give some context, uh, we work in a lot of countries. We've worked in over 40 countries now. Um but in many instances uh you have uh options through the state department especially if you're dealing with a US citizen that they have uh diplomatic relationships other countries such as believer there are no rel there is no relationship with the United States uh where there's tremendous amount of corruption and other issues as was evident in this particular case and also looking at their prison system where this person was being uh held at the time um it's it's a place which is completely inhumane there's basically the no prison guards that are inside. It's like a it's like a city and at night they lock the doors and people have to fend for themselves. Um and during the day it's almost like they open it up and people come in, go out, they sell things, they do things, but otherwise there's no other controls. The people that are in the prison basically run the prison and so it can be a very very frightening and very very dangerous dangerous place. And um you know so we were trying to figure out how to uh be able to get to the leadership of that country. And uh one of the ideas was that as you said this this other person Sean Penn had a relationship with a with a leader of a different country that had a relationship to this person. I'm leaving out the names because we don't have to get into all those specifics. >> And um through this person that we had met in California, he had made an introduction. >> Wow. uh and he took this thing seriously and kind of made it and and went out there and connected through all these different things till he got to the right people and was able to be helpful in uh in helping bring a Jew home. >> He was eventually released and then it was like a corruption. It was like a crazy >> tremendous corruption. >> It was there was no light by the end of the tunnel and and this thing just took a turn. It was unbelievable. >> Oh yeah. And and unfortunately, you know, there's there's there's many many other uh instances and countries that either have archaic type of uh prison environments or laws. For example, something called debtor's prison. uh you know in Cambodia uh you know if a person takes a legitimate uh loan from from a financial institution or uh to open a business and for whatever reason the business legitimately is not successful or doesn't work and therefore the investment uh is not repaid uh till that person can repay that they put them in what they call debtor's prison >> which uh you know if you can imagine a person who has to work to repay something but is locked up in a place that he can't do and the family doesn't have the ability uh could be very very challenging and you know many other instances where we work in in international countries uh and citizens of of many different countries that are that are helped through this effort. >> Wow, it's crazy stuff. And the ALF Institute, how do they help out the families of the incarcerated? Like as far as camps, rent and gifts, all these kinds you you take on a two-part. You're taking it on a part of the of the prisoner, the person who is unfortunately going to sit in prison for a certain amount of years and and you you go have a co you go in there and you teach you learn with the with these people and stuff like that. Plus, you take on the family which are the children and stuff like that. That's talk a little bit about that. >> Right. So to your last point, I'll go back to it. Yes. in within the prison environment. Um you know we have a very extensive what we call visitation program where we have bimalite volunteers that go to visit prisons all around the country at certain points in the year. It's a lot more around or whether it's purim now is coming the uh we'll have many and people that will spend time in many institutions to ensure that they have a minion proper you know tilis and and and those things uh we have very extensive as you said learning programs correspondence courses we do we have a program called adal basum yeshiva in prison where it's we conduct a three-day program at the facility where our volunteers and people are there all day for three days and it's much an opportunity to to sit and learn with people many different subject matters to talk with them to be mazic them and then as I said there's the advocacy side which in many instances is not dealing with yiddishkite related matters at all of course there is those policy issues as well but there are transfer issues medical issues other types of issues that people have uh which we have an advocacy team that works on um but as you mentioned um in so many of these instances the victim victims of uh the situation are the families. >> Yeah. >> Spouses, children, parents. Um you know, my uncle would often say that um sometimes, >> as hard as this concept is to say, he says sometimes in concept um a child of a person that's incarcerated is worse off than a than an orphan. Because a an orphan, people pity them. The children of somebody who's incarcerated, they get judged, they get ostracized. Um those families get ostracized, those families get pushed aside in many instances. They had no knowledge, had no involvement of course and uh are left completely destitute. Sometimes going through the legal system is very very costly. that can leave them completely uh destitute financially, certainly emotionally uh deeply deeply broken and creates families in crisis as you said, not being able to meet their uh monthly obligations towards keeping the lights on, paying the rent, putting food on the table. U not even talking about making sure their kids are in school. Uh you mentioned the summer camps to ensure that these kids can have a productive, positive summer. There are statistics that show uh this is more broadly, not necessarily within our communities, but more broadly that um children of somebody that's incarcerated have a uh a very high percentage uh likelihood of ending up in that environment themselves. >> So when you think about, you know, certainly in the summer months where number one, a child should be in a wholesome positive environment, uh you sometimes have a spouse that's working two jobs just to to and and these kids are not in school at that time. So they get to left to to figure out things for their own. Unfortunately, it doesn't lead to positive things. But beyond that is to afford them the opportunity to have uh a a healthy, positive, happy summer. But this goes beyond that. Uh there there's the trauma that they face and the psychological damage that they face. Um we have a excellent program um which is called the angel program. The angel program is an intern program with uh people that are studying at certain schools that we partner with um to become therapists, family therapists, psychologists, that type of work. And um on any given week, we probably have several hundred uh individuals that are receiving one-on-one counseling um from these interns, which are properly supervised with a clinical director um as part of that internship. But just to see these, you know, the the amount of uh emotional distress that they go through and the amount of assistance that they need, uh it's it's it's really endless. Um you know, I'm going to segue here for a minute just to say to you that um for many people, uh you know, they have a focus on things that they're passionate about or that they support. Some people support medical related issues, some people support uh education, some people people have a passion of where they they feel most uh connected and where they want to invest their time or their resources. Um when it comes to the work that we do at Olive, >> you know, across the gamut, it touches on everything because in many instances a child that needs to have education. Many times it's a it's a medical situation that can't be afforded. Many times it's a housing crisis. whatever it might be, it touches upon every aspect of community, society, family, >> I mean, it's like every little organization is in this organization. >> It's unbelievable stuff. >> And you know, and I can tell you that there are at any given time uh several thousand uh ongoing uh cases. And when I say that, I don't necessarily, as I said earlier, mean mitsade, a religious uh observance uh type of situation, which in many times it is uh that but also just crisis that people are going through uh in that environment. And so it's it's it's really always in crisis mode. And um for many of these people uh they don't have who who else to call. This is the only call they can make. In fact, I recall um uh my my aunt uh Rabbits and Lipker telling story that she was in the office one day. Uh this is years ago and uh the phone is ringing and the uncle was busy with something else. So he asked her, "Pick up the phone. You'll answer the phone." So he picks up the phone and said, "They're recording. This is from a correctional environment to prison environment. Do you accept the do you accept the charges?" "Yes." [clears throat] Got on the phone with the person and said, "Okay, what what can I do for you? how can we help you? What's the problem? In this particular instance, this person said, uh, let me tell you, uh, I know it's a resource to call you because these are collect calls, right? >> And, uh, you know, I know that it's even kind of published or advertised that utilize this only in moments of of crisis or or or emergency. >> And he said, uh, I just want to say as follows. He says, "Maybe what I'm calling about is not a crisis or emergency for you, but I just wanted to say that I have nobody in the world. I'm completely lo cut off from everybody that I ever had." And over here, people line up to use the phone to call, somebody to call the family, to call the Lord. I have nobody to call. So, I just wanted to have somebody to call. Somebody should answer my call. >> Wow. >> So, >> it's crazy. So, that that that is also part of the that little thing is also part of Unbelievable stuff. You were talking before about the Bureau of Prisons. Explain a little bit what that means. The Bureau of Prisons. >> So, uh, the Bureau of Prisons is a government agency under the Department of Justice, right? >> Um, the leadership of the Bureau of Prisons, the director, uh, is a presidential appointment. Um, they work ultimately directly, as I said, under the Department of Justice. the structure and the function of the actual facilities. There are many uh institutions which are privately run. There are private companies that run the day-to-day operations of the facilities, but they are still under the umbrella and the oversight of the Bureau of Prison. >> They run these prisons a little bit better than the private ones than the government ones or >> you know, it really depends. Uh some of them are a little bit better. some of them you know pride themselves of being a little bit better but unfortunately when it is something which is uh a business uh sometimes you know corporations or businesses try to find more effective ways of cost cutting measures and sometimes that can you know affect you know the different types of services or food services other types of things so it's not always a uh you know a plus >> but just speaking of the Bureau of Prisons um it's an agency which we've worked with you know since Olive was started and had very positive open working relationship. Um I I personally have worked with eight of the last many uh directors of the Bureau of Prisons. I can tell you that right now um the leadership of the Bureau of Prisons are an excellent excellent uh administration. Uh we have a very very positive open working relationship with them with director with the assistant director. Um they are very very forwardthinking in terms of many of the issues that we have been advocating for for a long time. uh looking to create uh real significant change and impact in those environments to some of the things that we've spoken about to things like uh solitary confinement to things like uh being able to enhance the furlow opportunities the the uh the family components uh communications whether it's through more phone time or working on creating a tablet system educational programs really working very very hard uh you know to to enhance that and as as you said not just uh house individuals but look at the responsibility of what that means. So they're you know they're they're excellent excellent administration right now and we do as I said have great communication with them ex very very responsive hashem um at every turn. >> Wow. Now what is one thing that you would want to see changed right away that you don't like um in the system right now? Well, um obviously we spoke about some of the harshest things and the internal punishments that go on. Um but something I just mentioned things like uh furlows. There are many [clears throat] opportunities which exist within policy but aren't necessarily used at the local level because many of these things are at the discretion of the local warden or the local administration. And uh we would hope that you know existing policy which obviously there's other things that we're working on uh would be implemented a lot more uh because especially uh when it comes to maintaining the family unit and maintaining that bond uh it it takes so much. I'm sure you know you your podcast called the struggle. I'm I'm sure you've addressed or you address, you know, the challenges that can go on in in a conventional regular household marriage and the challenges that exist when you add this type of stress or disconnect. Uh it's it's it's it's unimaginable the type of challenges that come up and when there are so many restrictions on actually trying to keep the families connected uh it doesn't help at all. So [snorts] working on implementing a lot more of the family opportunities and connections uh also as I said again the furlows when possible for people to be able to participate in critical milestone events you know whether it's a a big sim in a family or if it's if it's a tragedy in a family to be able to be a part of that because uh to miss those moments uh as well as being incarcerated when the possibility is there is something which is is is additionally devastating to people, >> right? And you were successful a lot to sometimes take people to sim and and and >> it's we've had success with that. Um just a few weeks ago actually uh or a little over a month ago, there's a a family um that uh young boy was his bar mitzvah and uh we had worked closely with the family. The father unfortunately uh due to his situation is incarcerated. Um but we were helping with this uh this family uh with with all the arrangements for the bar mitzvah to to teach him to to help get fill in to get him and you know this is something we do in many instances but in this particular case um and we hosted a nice small uh you know very beautiful bar mitzvah for a small group of people at the shul. Uh and one of the things that we were able to do in this particular instance which uh we were careful in how we shared it with the family in advance because we don't want to create you know an expectation which uh is is unrealistic because I have always found that in working in this environment you know even if uh you have almost an absolute yes on something till it's actually happening you know you don't want to you know get people's hopes up but in this instance we were able to bring his father uh to the sh to the bar mitzvah. Uh he was able to be there to put on film with his son and to celebrate and had that day to be with his family and of course had to go back after. >> Yeah, that that is a sad part, right? That's not easy to go back. >> You know, there was um just a just a very heartbreaking another heartbreaking story has happened a number of years ago. Uh a similar instance where we were able to uh to get permission for a father to come and be a part of uh his son's bar mitzvah. And uh when you talk about the impact on the families and and how it plays out and um it was overheard at the bar mitzvah that uh the bar mitzvah boy had a younger brother and the younger brother maybe was six or seven years old at the time that his father went away. He was much younger and um the father was there and it was overheard this little boy telling a friend of his, "You see, I told you I have a tati. I wasn't lying to you." So you can imagine what this boy was going through that he's telling people have a where is he? Where's your father? We never seen him. He doesn't come to schol bring you to school. Where is he? And this little boy was telling his friend, you see, I have a tati. Um so you know that's that's the type of of deep impact but yes we've had the opport we've had the success in doing that and we're continuing to expand that um and of course the educational programs greater access to that as I mentioned in the state systems because when you mention the Bureau of Prisons Bureau of Prisons is the federal bureau of prisons uh but each state has its own department of corrections uh which is the state prisons um state jails prisons and then you have local county jails and and and and other environments. There's many many different environments that are under different jurisdictions, but the Federal Bureau of Prisons is one agency that oversees um the whole country. It's broken up into different regions approximately six regions. Each region has a regional director and you know they have the chapency locally or regionally. and uh you know we we somewhat follow that structure for our advocacy team as we have advocates that are assigned to each of the regions that oversee any of the issues that are going on in the federal or state prisons in that particular region and then we have more of our our central advocacy as well. So that's how we try to >> that sounds like a lot of work and uh a lot of people it's a it's an amazing organization. So, can can um can you walk us through what a day in prison looks like from in the morning till at night, what these people are going through? >> Well, it it really depends uh what level of custody it is. Uh classification, you know, you have as you me, you have a camp, you have a low, you have a medium, you have a penitentiary. That's in the federal system. Uh in in the uh state systems as well, you have different levels of custody. So that that is a big determining factor. Uh but you know in in in some of the uh lighter environments you know yes people they get up early in the morning they they have very set times very very early with the eating. Of course if they need to accommodate doining or filling everybody that is in prison has to have a job. Uh people work uh some work in the kitchen, some work on outside on in the gu in the landscaping, some people work uh in the library, some people work in the chapel. Uh you know, other states, you know, you've classically heard that, you know, they're making uh furniture, they're making license plates, you know, but everybody has to work. Uh and but just for uh perspective purposes um you know for a lot of personal products uh or hygiene products uh or other things there is a commissary right >> in the prison and people have to purchase those things on their own. Uh that also connects to how they purchase you know used to be stamps for mail or paying for for phone whatever it might be it goes through the the commissary and [snorts] uh you know the standard going wage for a person who's in prison who has to be compensated for their work is 25 cents an hour. So for somebody who is completely destitute and needs to buy a toothbrush or a bar of soap or even to supplement their their diet with some type of uh additional food, uh at 25 cents an hour, it's not uh getting you very far. Uh we we we also help with that. >> We help you help putting in money into people's accounts. There are there are many people that are as completely destitute have nothing and on a monthly basis we provide uh stipens into their commissary accounts just so that they should be able to afford sometimes the basics um which is having [snorts] a direct direct impact on that person for their simplest most human need sometimes >> it is crazy stuff I mean people don't even know about it I mean they know what institute but the stuff that you're you're sharing over here is is beyond on. Now, let me ask you a question. As far as men versus women, [clears throat] is it in the in the Jewish population? Are there Jewish women in prisons as as well? And what is the numbers? It's not 50/50, I'm assuming. Let's take a quick pause. Here on the struggle podcast, we always talk about struggles, pains, suffering. Everyone can use a break. What is a better way to rejuvenate and to relax is to get away to the mansion at the Poconos. This is a mansion that sits on 37 acres. It hosts 60 guests. It has kosher food. It is good for shva brookas. It is good for bait mitzvah. It is good for family gatherings. And it has everything and anything you can imagine from pools to tennis courts, the hot tubs. This could be lovely for you and for your family. Please call 845-5587280. >> No, it's it's not 50/50 at all. The the numbers there are there are Jewish women uh that are that are in prison and in jails. Um the numbers are are far smaller. Um I would say that maybe uh in the range of 3 to 400. U so it's a much smaller percentage. Um, and >> but you guys have a database and you know there's a and you help women differently the way whatever they need you you you help them just like you help the men. >> Absolutely. Um, you know, we we're we advocate we provide these different services. We provide uh visitations. Uh we have some volunteers and rebbitson and wonderful people that go uh to the women's prisons. We just had them do a a visit in one of the places this past week leading up to Rashashana. Uh we'll have what we call the Yeshiva imp prison opportunity in the lady in the women's uh facilities as well. >> Learning learning >> we learning and bring in groups of volunteers uh women and others in the communities that are uh you know inclined to participate. >> Are these women uh incarcerated because of white collar crime? What kind of crimes are like men are like, you know, they're on the street, it's all a lot of money and this and that, but um what what are women incarcerated for? >> It across the board, unfortunately, it's it's it's every type of situation. Uh oftentimes it could be uh you know theft, it could be white collar, it could be violence unfortunately, it could be drugrelated uh and other types of uh things that we could understand that sometimes a desperate woman might fall into and we've addressed [snorts] that extensively. I know that you know on this uh struggle you address a lot of uh matters that deal with addiction or mental health or things of that nature. But unfortunately, the way that a lot of uh people that end up breaking the law, and in many instances, it could even be petty things, but it is repetitive, so they become repeat offenders, and therefore they're looked at uh very differently. Um that it's actually direct, and this is men and women, this is directly connected to uh mental health, to addiction related issues. Um, and in some of the uh county jails and other places in our country, some of the uh what you might call the mental health uh prison unit could have hundreds if not thousands of people that are incarcerated there. Uh whether you know and and unfortunately we're finding that you know with a a mental health crisis and epidemic um they're not being given the proper treatment, the proper medications, the proper help that they need. they're simply just being incarcerated to control them. And uh you know that's another big area of advocacy to certainly when it's this type of that that's the catalyst for why they find themselves there. That's another area to work with the courts to work very hard to get people into the right environments into the right uh rehabilitation environments or into the right mental health facilities. Um even if it's very restrictive of course but that they should be getting the proper treatment they should be getting the proper medication. they should be getting the help that they need. And we see that uh constantly. And even people who continue to get themselves into all sorts of trouble while being uh incarcerated, which sometimes can extend their incarceration period purely because they're just not being treated for something else and continues to to to perpetuate this erratic behavior. >> Wow. Now as far as fear, we know that you know people who uh who are sentenced and they have fear or people who are in prison um they also have what is the fear that you find that most people have? Is it from other inmates or is it from the guard? What where do you find is the the major fear? >> Well, it's I would say it's a combination of of the above. Um yeah, reality is that in some instances I can tell you that uh in certain places there are uh and I've personally dealt with some of these even more recently there are people that are sentenced to very very harsh environments. >> It's not a safe place. >> Not a safe place. And even environments where we have been asked specifically either by the person or by the family or by others, please do not come and visit. Please do not send anything. please do not do anything that will identify me uh to the population that's around me. Um and so in those instances, we we try potentially to have them move to a a more secure environment. But some of these higher security prisons can be a very dangerous place from, you know, just and and people are very very vulnerable in that environment. Um sometimes the harshness of the conditions conditions of confinement and the way that they're being treated by by those that are uh there to to probably take care of them or to protect them. Uh you know is something which could be a fear as well. Um there's constantly a fear of retribution meaning if somebody's afraid that if they speak out if there was an injustice or something that they should have received or they didn't receive or other things that if they speak out somehow it's you know they'll they'll take nam on them and we see it. Um and it's something which we which we we tried to fight and that's where we work at the at the top levels of all these different systems but these are things that are happening every day. Um and and you know so in certain environments uh people are more protected protect themselves and in the lower but in in certain of the environments it can be a very very >> Riker's Island is not a is one of those places right >> it is and it's it's a very frightening >> place to be and uh and if somebody gets locked up sometimes in in solitary confinement or in some other situation it could be days if not weeks till anybody figures about where they are, what's going on with them, or what's happening with them. Even in some of the the the the other environments, I I've received calls sometimes from family, we haven't heard from him, we haven't heard from our our father, we haven't heard from our husband, like, can you find out what's going on? What happened over here? Um so, you know, that level of not being able to to communicate as well uh creates that. Um you asked earlier about the women's prisons as well. Um it's it's across the board. You know, when I first started with ALF many, many years ago, um I started as a volunteer to uh because we have a very extensive summer visitation program where we send Bahim uh who are who volunteered to go all over the country, hundreds of facilities specifically during the summer and I did one summer many years ago uh the state of Florida and part of Georgia and uh you know visited probably about 110 uh facilities during that six week period. Uh but at the time I uh also visited some women's prisons and some very very high security women's prisons uh in in in Georgia and parts of uh parts of Florida. Um and of course there are many unique situations that relate to women that do not relate to men. Sometimes we have situations with a person who's pregnant who's going into prison and we'll have to have a a baby in in prison um and addressing that need or some of the medical types of issues that they have. Uh so we do have um a an initiative that we're uh pushing and adding to the work that we do in addition to all of the regular advocacy. An initiative is specific to addressing um the advocacy needs of women in prison. It's it's it's unbelievable stuff. Now, if a uh if if someone in prison needs mental health, is the do the prisons um uh provide uh professional help where they can sit once a week, two times a week? I know some they got to get it out, they want to talk. Is this is is this professional? They can they can really help themselves over there or is just, you know, the minimum? >> It's really the minimum. um you know they there there are programs and that's what you asked earlier and I said that you know brers are constantly looking to enhance their services the programs of course within every uh facility there is medical um which medical is not only uh a physical ailment but you know where they have opportunities to have a counselor to have somebody that they can speak to uh but in most instances you're talking with a very large population um so for them to get real effective assistance is is is very very difficult As we said before also uh sometimes receiving the right medications is something which just is not within what they provide and there's alternatives or other types and it's sometimes just completely ineffective and that's why there's a lot of advocacy that goes on in that environment to talk with medical uh in wash bureau of prisons and other environments to try and ensure that people who require medications both for physical ailments or for mental illness can get what they need. Um, and that's a big part of the visitations which we try to supplement because sometimes it's beyond a person that has a real acute problem and need. It's just that human interaction and that human connection um and somebody showing up and and and just saying you matter and you care and um and of course we work closely with the chapency which is religious services which sometimes has to address a lot of these issues from that perspective. What would you say is the biggest pain that a person who is in prison, incarcerated, what is his biggest complaint? >> For many people maybe it's food. >> For many people certainly the the the challenge uh as it relates to connecting with their family. >> Um you know I I mentioned earlier that you know a person that's incarcerated it's almost like being in suspended animation. Um and uh again I'll refer to my uncle on this show that he would tell the story that uh there was a person that was um in prison. He knew this man. Uh before this person went in, he was a very successful person, very proud. And uh as it turns out, uh he had a teenage son and um the mother, the wife was having a very challenging time with her son and he was uh not listening, not behaving. And um she asked, "Could you please accompany me to the next prison visit so we can talk about this as a family? we can try to address this matter. and he says, "I'll never forget he was sitting and uh after they start talking a little bit, the mother starts to say to her husband, you know, son that's here, he's not really behaving well in school, other things, getting mixed up with the wrong people, whatever it was that she So, the father turns to his son and he tries to discipline him a little bit and tries to say, you know, within one second, he said, as he sat there stunned. He said, "This boy turns to his father, that teenage boy, and he says,"Listen to me, Dad. If you ever talk to me like that again or tell me what to do, I will take you off my call list and I will never ever visit you again." He says, "You watch this father shrink down. He wants to bury himself." He says, "And that have zero control, zero ability to control any situation." And I guess that's a tremendous pain for somebody that is used to managing their own life or dealing with and all of a sudden all of that is taken away from you in many instances where they where where it's a prison environment where they are housed in a cell, you know, it's very complicated. All of a sudden, you know, locked up in a cell sometimes for most of the day, many hours in the day. You talk about a person who wants to dive in, let's say, but in the middle of the cell, first of all, you're with your cellmates who aren't necessarily always the friendliest and a bath, the toilet is in the cell. So, just every type of challenge of just a normal uh situation is taken away and how to navigate those things. >> Yeah. Because someone told me once the idea of um not being needed and and and we used to being a giver, the bills are being paid, mortgages, everything is is you're not needed. You're put away and and and then that is tremendous pain >> because you're alive, but you're not alive. >> Correct. And uh you know of course the the the pain of of of the the embarrassment the the pain of of of the judgment >> the shame >> the shame of it you know that's another component that when you look at the the the sentencing uh components in a federal environment there's different components they look at restitution retribution public safety all these types of things and something which we've tried to uh include sometimes just for the perspective of some of the the judges is the idea of bushes, which in Jewish law is is is a major thing, but when it comes to uh the criminal justice system, that's not something that's looked at. Or maybe in some environments having uh being a rough and tough guy and getting locked up is a badge of honor. I I don't know. But so so trying to to understand that as well and and and the embarrassment that comes with it, which is completely debilitating. Um >> and and then the family members are also embarrassed and they're also ashamed. It's like it's a two-part thing. What kind of do you give? How do you speak to a child? Uh like you said before, it was an angry child telling the father I will not come and visit you again. What kind of words of can you tell a family? Uh this is this is your journey. There is it is what it is. What do you share with these people? >> It's a it's it's a it's a very good question and it's very very tough. Obviously, every instance is different. Um, as I'm sure you know, for many people, uh, the greatest and most important piece of it is just being seen and heard and feeling that their anger, their resentment, their frustration, their anxiety, uh, their whatever it might be, that there's somebody that's listening to them and not judging them because they've been judged by everybody. They've been put down by everybody. Uh, so that's that's number one is just providing a listening, caring ear. Sometimes it's beyond anything else that you can provide but just giving them a non-judgmental uh amount of love and connection. >> Sit there with them and be there with them. That's it. >> The natural uh approach of a human being is to try and do some searching and to figure out what's going on over here. And uh this is a this is a an interesting but tough concept and I heard it a lot. Again, my uncle would would say it. He would he would often say he would say to a person and I heard I visited with him I in um that doing something wrong or allegedly having done something wrong is not the reason that you're in prison. That only made you eligible to end up in prison. And the fact is that there might be other people that are walking around that did the same thing if not worse and they're not in prison. So he would challenge them and say you know so what what is the reason that you find yourself in this environment >> and uh what is the reason that you have to be here? Um you know we always talk about the story of of of um from two perspectives uh the famous story where he comes in the morning when he was in prison and he sees the butler and the baker and they're feeling extra sad that day and uh he engages with them. Um and there's two beautiful lessons over there which was number one that even when he was going through uh his own incarceration and his own challenge being sold by his brothers and everything that was going on he was still looking to see how can I help another another person how can I help somebody else that that that is in this environment that may be doing a little worse than I am and maybe I'm here to to uplift them. That was one uh and ultimately that was what brings about his freedom because he says don't forget me when these interpretations will come true and you go before and so by showing that kindness is what he was able to redeem himself and so there is to an extent in certain environments a sense of community that gets created um and people look out for each other but this is a hard thing when talking to somebody uh because naturally like anything in life for any of us when something doesn't go as we expected or as we hoped or there's a curve in the road that was unforeseen uh we have a big question we say why >> why me what's going on over here um and when we get to the point that we can pass all the initial pieces of it you know we we try to figure out >> so what you're saying is that um this is the way to give meaning to it >> absolutely you know and for people to to to look at it uh from from a meaningful way. Uh it's a very hard thing to say, a very hard thing to hear. Um I've heard it from a lot of people whether it's after the fact or during that when they've come to that point that it was an experience which which there was positive in it for them. >> Now about the co that we were talking about that you guys go in and you learn with people and men and women. What where do you start? What kind of is it Tanya? Where do you start? Sometimes these people are affiliated, sometimes they're not affiliated. But what's the where's the starting point? >> Okay, so for starters, we do regardless provide as I mentioned many many many different books and English books in many different languages. We have what we call [snorts] correspondence courses which are on all types of subject matter from the most basic for a person learning how to read Hebrew to to learning about bras to learning about uh shabas to learning about >> start from olive bas. start from olive base. But in these situations, as you said, sometimes you could have somebody who may have sat in yeshiva for many years and knows how to learn with older mafarim and another person who's just getting started doesn't know anything. So we we we have we follow [snorts] the structure of I call the yeshiva in prison basically a yeshiva where obviously when we're dvening together for those that already understand we make sure those that are new to it teaching them about putting on fill and how the process is what the meaning behind it is doing what we might call like a beginner type of prayer service explaining the davining some environments where we're able to sit and eat with them to explain to them about and go through those types of things and then there's different subject of There's there's and there's Mishna and there's and there's this and there's there's there's all the different things that that are done. But what we do in advance is uh we generally know through asking through a questionnaire and other things the level of uh who's there and what they're and it's very much in a kusa based style. So when we're there those that are going in already know who they're going to be learning with. So what they have to prepare uh you know with some maybe as I said he's learning about blat with with with mushroom with somebody else he's supposedly just giving him some >> background in Jewish history you know so everybody's really being catered to at the level that they're at >> um >> and do you find that uh people who get introduced to Yiddish kite >> and when they are eventually released they hold on to this Yiddish kite or some fall back >> look in that environment certainly for a sense of community and a sense of purpose you know, people are a lot more open as they say and we we mentioned at the beginning we do work in the milit and and especially as I was saying that there are many times that people aren't that affiliated but shabas comes and they're able to get together as a group all of a sudden you know they they they very much want to be a part of it but we we we try very hard to make sure that we stay connected to people some uh more some some less but we also try to work very hard with in local communities where we know they're going back to uh their homes to make sure to introduce them in the local community to the shul to a rabbi to make sure that they that they stay connected um and we we we do you know a lot of outreach to to keep connected with them and to to follow up with them. For many people, you know, once they're done with the with the with the experience, you know, they say, "I love you very much, but uh lose my number because every time I see you, as much as I appreciate you, it takes me to a place that I don't want to be anymore. I want to be past that." Other people are very, you know, so >> and you respect that, >> of course. >> What message do you have for loved ones and for family members of people who are in prison? They should know what ALF stands for and they should know that who has their back. >> So my message to them is first and foremost do not be ashamed to reach out. Um because you have a family that cares for you. You have people that care, people that are engaged in this work not for any other reason but to be there for you. Um everything is done confidentially. Everything is done with dignity. Everything is done with sensitivity. Uh nobody should ever feel alone that they have no no one to call or nowhere to go because ALF is very much there to answer anytime any call. The extent of sometimes the assistance that's needed can be a challenge but we're certainly always working hard to try and address every need. But that's the most important. That's what we try to say as uh as the motto of ALF is no one alone, no one forgotten. um that you know as as difficult as it is and people have pride you know don't be ashamed to to to pick up the phone and call because that's what we're there for and uh there's no there's no judgment uh just love >> wow beautiful message um do you find sometimes the ye will tell you I'm completely lost and I am very angry and upset and I don't want to hear a word about Yiddish guide >> all the time >> don't bother me don't put on filling I'm not there yet. >> Um, absolutely. We hear that all the time. Um, and it's the same message. The same message is we're not here to to to impose anything. If you want it, absolutely. We'll give you whatever we can to help you live as a Yid. Otherwise, I'm just here >> as your brother to give you a hug, to give you some facetime to tell you that I love you. And yes, I've I've seen it. I've dealt with people that were very very angry, very very distant from Yiddish. And of course the objective there is just to let them know that you're here on a human level on a with with brotherly love. That's all that it is. >> Now children visiting the parents and families visiting. Do you recall a story that is a a tremendous heartbreak that you uh remember of a of a an encounter like that? So, you know, personally, I I I don't visit in the visiting room uh so much with with with family, but obviously I've heard recounts and stories. You look, first of all, um I not too long ago visited with somebody who was in a higher level security and um was finally transferred to a camp status. Uh because the way that the rules work, if a person gets a sentence which is above 10 years or if there's other aggravating factors in the in the case sometimes they they're not eligible to go into a camp environment. Um even if it is a white collar first-time offense, non-violent uh above a certain amount of years, they're not eligible for it. Or if let's say they're a foreigner, other types of things. Uh and in this particular instance um you know here was a father who when I I had seen him a number of times but then I came to see him um when I met with the group at in in the camp environment um he took me aside. He said I want you to know uh last week was the first time in almost 38 months that I saw my children. He said while I was behind the fence as they called it. He says, "I never wanted them to come." Somehow, I guess, you know, in some of these environments, they tried to convince small children that, you know, the father's away. He's traveling extensively, not necessarily telling them where where and what's going on. But he had said that till he was in the camp where it's a lot more open, you know, the way that they can spend time together sometimes outside, whatever it might be, he didn't want them to see him there. >> So, so he hadn't seen his children uh by choice. uh but also for them in a veriton which is just you know that is completely you know completely heartbreaking or to see you know when you have little children um uh you know coming in there's there's there's a story that I I didn't experience personally but somebody else was mentioning how it impacted them they were sitting in in in a in a visiting room and it was before Pes and uh like they preparing for Pes they they come home with a giant they prepare a whole time everything and here was this little child with their big hagod that they had prepared knowing that they were not going to be with their father for for the pes and standing over there and giving some of the ver saying the manishana and going through you know that experience. And so to see the brokenness and the pain on that parent um and having to feel the pain that maybe they take responsibility on themselves for causing that child is something which is uh impossible to describe. >> Wow. Amazing stuff. Now do they have an ability to watch like um besides TV do they have internet? They have communication emails. So they have emails. >> They can watch a podcast. Don't know. >> Yes. So um it depends. Right now in the state systems, many of the state systems have uh specialized tablets that they have. Those tablets have um all types of uh all types of uh things on them. There's entertainment, there's music. Most of they have to buy. You have to buy these things. Um but we have developed uh like the ALF app which has uh a lot of uh recorded uh you know podcast style things sharim uh you know that they could watch and listen to classes or material that we put on there. There there's there's many many hours that we've been able to uh >> but but they have a certain amount of hours that they can watch. Is that's what it is? >> No, it's it's when they have free time based on their schedule there they they can use it for many. I remember for years it was TV only and that's it, >> right? But for and now this is where the Bureau of Prisons is is catching up cuz right now they do have a device but it's really only some games or entertainment or movies whatever it might be but we're but they're moving forward which we're very very hopeful for and I know they're working very hard on it because >> what it also provides is the opportunity for uh easier communication with the family. Obviously with easier communication they have to have their their uh security concerns in place but this can provide for uh video visitation. If a family cannot visit they can visit them virtually. Um in speaking with director of the bureau of prisons he also spoke about the idea that when there are lockdowns which are unfortunately very frequent in federal prisons um when there's contraband or other types of things that are found in the compounds everybody suffers. Everybody's locked down. Yeah. Meaning all the visitations are are canceled. All commissary for everybody is stopped. Everything comes to a halt. Everybody is stuck where they are. Uh and in in in higher level security environments, they're stuck in their in their cell for 23 hours a day. It's the way it is. But the objective here is they still have the ability to continue because there are programming with their programming with their learning with their entertainment if they want. So there are some opportunity. are trying to to enhance that because the objective is and I think that that's coming back to the beginning um what the idea was the idea was to of course bring love, connection, warmth, opportunity but also to be rehabilitative and to also create real educational opportunities, programs where people are utilizing their time. You know they call it doing time. >> You know you know this con what? Yeah, but you talk about this constant people say you know something that you know some people come very frustrated by when somebody tells you you know I got a couple hours to kill so let's what do you got time to kill what do you so but in these environments it's literally what it is people partially just have time and the question is what we can help to provide that they utilize the time in an effective positive way >> unbelievable I want to quickly switch over because I know ALF Institute is also doing military work for military personnel So the question is um how does it affect how does military how how does military personnel being affected by yiddish kite I mean is is it similar to what's going on in the prisons even though they're not punished but uh where where's the difference between I mean how do you compare the two? >> So it's a great question. So yes, we have a very uh large military program. Um we're the largest endorser of uh Jewish from chaplain uh to the different departments of of the United States military. Um as well as providing all of these services. So you ask a good question. We we are very mindful that on the one hand we keep our different divisions quite separate, but people ask so what's the connection? How do you get to this? And the connection is because we're dealing with what you might call individuals in institutional or limited environments. >> And at the end of the day, the military is an institutional limited environment. Um an environment where in many instances there are the same challenges. Uh away from home, disconnected from community, uh limited resources for the so a lot of those concepts are very similar. Uh but obviously it's tailored in a very different way. If you think about during deployments and things of that nature when there are servicemen and women that are that are overseas or away on a ship or you know on the front lines their access to getting what they may need is a pes is coming is coming whatever it is a migilla you know whatever it is that's just from that perspective um it's also as I said endorsing with the department of defense the chaplain that are entrusted to go out and care for their needs but making sure that the chaplins have what they need and we can give that to them. But there's also a family component to it as well. You know, families uh are home or sometimes families are stationed with [snorts] uh with the with with the family member who's in the military in very remote places. Their access to uh to schooling, Jewish schooling is completely limited. So having opportunities for online schools or for online Hebrew schools um different opportunities of that nature. Um so there are there are many many similar types of challenges which which we address and also within the government agencies but obviously not making a comparison one way or another uh between the two communities. Um and that's why also our programs are are specific our publications are very specific. We have, you know, a a large distribution on a magazine called the National Liberator, which is a is is a magazine that goes out uh, you know, six to eight times a year, which is specifically for the prison environment, um, which addresses programs that are related to them, articles of information that is specific to that environment or programs for their families, you know, like Khan is coming. If somebody doesn't have the ability can through us not with our name can can request that a kan gift be sent to their child that shows up in an Amazon package with the father's name with the mother's name to do with us that they those you know so to provide them with that information or if there's changes in the system things that they could do or if things are coming up and even when we do it's coming out we have separate calendars separate types of publications and with the with the with the military we have the national we have the warrior magazine which is very focused on the military only uh we we do all of the publications whether it's whatever we're providing and in many instances we we do special printings of because of the specifications whether it's military or prison it has to be a certain size it has to be a certain type of cover it can't be bound this way it can't have staples it can't have a heart whatever it might be we produce everything very very specific to that environment >> and do you feel that the military personnel have an emotional connection with ALF like the prison people have. >> There is a very very special um and deep connection. M um uh I I I would I'm going to invite you and encourage you that in in in February when we host our annual uh military training uh which we have to do as as an endorsing agency uh and coupled with that we we do a big shabas in the community for uh 400 people uh join us for Shabas and uh 200 of them are military personnel and their families uh and the energy and the love and the things that you here and the stories and the connections uh people are uh you know it's it's it's electric and you you should come and join it and and be a part of it. >> Where is that? >> In in the sh in that's where our main offices are in Bell Harbor in Miami and uh it's something which is uh very very unique and if you want to feel that warmth that connection that's the time to see it. >> Wow. Now let me ask you as far as the ALF Institute the business aspect of the ALF Institute is military uh is is it 50/50 between or you doing more work in the prisons than in the military? >> Um in terms of uh the expense factor um you know we're uh probably more of the funds needed and raised are uh directed on the prison side. um given the fact that the the needs financially whether it's with the families is quite different obviously a person that's in the military that's their career that's what they're doing um so we aren't necessarily uh stepping in or required to help them on that level even though there are many instances where they ask for small stipens or small scholarships for different things which we help with um but there and and also um to do the work most of the chaplain are government employees they're they're They're enlisted and employ not enlisted their offices but they're working for the military and we're simply providing the support the structure the education all of those things within the prison environment um it's very different as I said you know these people aren't uh person in prison is not working the amount of staffing that is required uh to provide all of the different services whether it's alternative sentencing whether it's uh you know the as I said the judicial outreach that we're doing whether it's the advocacy work whether it's the religious programming uh work that we're doing whether it's the preventative education which I'm not sure if you're familiar with that but project 432 P32 which has been growing uh uh consistently which is preventative education going out into the communities into schools into kim into different business environments young leadership environments and just push it talking about uh preventative education the challenges the pitfalls um the issues that come up um we've created uh curriculums that are being utilized now widely in different high schools in different schooling environments which focus uh you know on on the preventative side of things. So you know all of these different departments and things require um you know a a big team um which are completely unbelievable and dedicated but it's approximately uh 80 full-time people >> that uh are working for. So yes uh from the resources a lot more is required uh to achieve the results on the the prison side than on the military side. >> One final question who is your role model? >> Well my role model I would definitely say was my uncle. >> Um you know he was a person that I had the tremendous to work alongside him for close to 25 years. Um, and uh, just to be able to watch his relentless, tireless commitment to whatever it was that he was doing in general. Uh, his love and commit and and commitment to the Reba, his he was a soldier, his love to the Aishtra. Um, and the way that he embodied that and lived that, the way that he interacted with every person that he met, um, always saw the potential, always saw the good, always saw the opportunity for this person. um and was relentlessly communicative and responsive. People didn't understand how he was communicating with the people there was and that the time of day that he was, but he was a person that embodied 100% 24 hours a day what he did and what he believed like a like like an absolute soldier. So that to me was is is the greatest inspiration if I can even be a a small amount of what he was uh and and truly was a person that when you say he did it with love and he did it without judgment that that really was the way that he did it and he would often say you know what is true love what is true love true love is as you say oish if you say I love someone how do you express your love by loving what they love if you love them you'd love if you don't love what they love. You know your love is limited to other things. So they always say and that is that is what it means to love the you could say I love theish but that not so much but the loves every so as challen >> love what they love >> very profound >> and then and and that's what it is you may not have to always love their behavior you may not always you know but you always love them. Wow. Wow. Amazing stuff. What we heard today is a call to remember that every human being is a mamish. That's what we heard today. Unbelievable stuff. The institute holds the hand of families and yeden all over the world. The lesson is never to take our freedom for granted, right? Um how can we help the ALF Institute? If a person's listening to this and he's inspired and he says, you know what, I want a kick on this thing. >> Um, well, there are many opportunities to help. Uh, whether it's a person in a professional capacity, might be a lawyer that wants to help with proono hours, whether it's a person who just wants to somebody who wants to help with families, help take a family who needs to visit a prison but doesn't necessarily have the emotional strength to do it to to encourage them. We have penpal programs. We have a program called Torah on the telephone where we have uh several thousand people uh that are learning uh on a regular basis. This was started more during co but it's continuing uh where people can study with people on the on the phone and that doesn't diminish their limited phone time. They have extra time to do the Torah on the telephone. There's something called the AVC which is the Allah visitation circle. There are many people unfortunately that don't have family or disconnected. they don't get visits and this is not visiting uh in the official capacity of Olive where we go and meet with the whole group but people who go almost as an in-person pen pal people that go and visit in the visiting room to people that don't have anybody else to visit them so people can there's there's many many opportunities that people can do and certainly if people feel inspired and would like to share uh the resources Olive is uh not funded by the government we don't have any government fundings all funded by uh people that uh feel a sense of the importance of what we're doing um and uh participate generously uh to help us you know continue to do what we're doing and as I said earlier there are so many different aspects to what we're doing that if a person feels that they want to support a particular uh part of olive that is certainly something which is is always available and can be made very very clear where their direct impact goes >> and it covers all grounds there >> absolutely and We, you know, we operate on a fairly, uh, you know, uh, modest annual budget, uh, to get it all done. It's, uh, just approximately $10 million a year, uh, which we have to, which which we rely on the kindness of people to participate and and support. >> The should give you to continue and go in the of your uncle. You should have, and you should have health and uh, you should continue to light up the world. >> Amen. Wow. Beautiful. And thank you so much for coming in. >> Thank you.