Save Your Relationship Before It’s Too Late – Advice from a Couples Counselor -Moshe Zev Lamm, LCSW

married somebody. Everybody was dancing by the by the by the by the and it was so happy. We were smiling and then I get home and there's something about my or something about my that's really bothers me. I really don't like. We tend to think communication is about talking. Right. Everybody knows how to talk. Nobody knows how to communicate. And then she yells at him and he yells at her and they're not talking for 3 days till they get to the therapist office. Marriage is a struggle. It just is. >> I want to show respect really for the people who are who are staying in marriages that are not these ideal marriages. >> Looking to marriage to help me feel a certain way about myself. >> Right. It almost always fails. I mean the should be you look at the translation. It should be doesn't mean boss and servant. That's not >> Correct. We got to make that clear first of all. I I I know couples who spend all day together with the kids and they go to Costco and one master feels lonely. We're so the same. We're so wow. He's just like me. We we finish each other's sentences. That's a disaster. >> In one word, in short, if you can explain me what it is marriage. Okay. Our guest today um is Moshe Ze'ev Lamb. He's a clinical social worker. He is the clinical director from Achieve Marriage Center. He is known for giving couples therapy. Today we're going to talk about the struggles behind the smiles. We're going to talk about um the dynamics of marriage um and the expectations that we carry that everyone carries with themselves. We expect from other people and how we can build uh better and deeper relationships. Stronger relationships with connections. So Moshe Ze'ev, welcome to the struggle. >> Hello. Thank you. Wow, that's a lot a lot of stuff to discuss in one sitting. Excellent. So I'm glad you came in. Um so I want to talk about I want to start with um marriage. I want to start with couples. When you uh hear a couple say that um you know, it's it's going well. You know, there there's no personality disorders. There is no mental illness. It's just somehow they fell out of each other and they're tired and you can sometimes hear that um became like a business. We're staying together because of the kids. What do you what's your opinion is is is is this an an approach or is is there light by the end of the tunnel and a person shouldn't live like that as far as you know, like uh a must or this is a punishment? Wow. Okay. So so you're describing unfortunately you're describing a lot of marriages. Yeah. Um when when a couple is in that place there's really the the question is so broad cuz really there's they came there. They they they arrived at some kind of journey. There's a journey >> There's a journey that got them there. When they start usually happens by by couples who are already in the middle middle marriage. Not young couples. So usually usually it's 10, 15, 20 years. I've actually seen it in couples much younger. But what what a lot of it there's a journey here. This couple this couple the couple that you're describing went on a journey. And it's it's so hard to know when you say is this an approach? Of course not. It's it's it's it's it's it's very sad. It's something that that happens a lot. But what you need to look at when a couple comes in with such with such a situation what you really need to look at is what was the journey that brought them here. There was there was a journey that brought them here. And the journey there's no there's no one answer to that question because the answer is there's a journey here that took place and at some point they both gave up. Usually because the pain was too great. They tried. They couldn't get it to work. There's there's a lot in a in every marriage there's a tremendous amount of pain that's lying underneath the marriage. It might be pain of expectations. What I thought was going to happen in this marriage and what's not happening. It might be might be and when I say expectation might be what is marriage supposed to be what is marriage not supposed to be. It might be sometimes there are couples that come in with very simple issues that just were never addressed that were never never touched on and it grows and it grows and it's just you know, we thought it was supposed to be like this and it there's there's a point where the couple just a distance started to to be created and we really have to look back at the couple. See there's things playing there are things playing themselves out on the surface. There's on on the conscious level they're fighting over certain things that or that or they're not fighting or that there's a distance there. They gave up both people took a side and said, you know what? We got too much to lose. Right. I'm staying together and they're like this this is nothing. There's nothing there. There's nothing there almost always means it's too painful to be there. It's it's just there's some there's something that happened in our marriage that that didn't work and we didn't know how to make it work. And every time we try to make it work we got hurt more. And usually what happens is you know, I try and I get hurt and I try and I get hurt and I try again and I get hurt. And at one point someone gives up. At some point one or both of them are just going to go and say I'm not getting hurt anymore. A couple that's that's that's using that approach is a couple that's saying I'm not going to get hurt anymore. I just don't want to get hurt anymore. So that's the root of it. That's the the root of it is usually I don't want to get hurt anymore. I'm done I'm done being hurt. Right. So they're pulling back. So they're pulling back. And what that couple for for a couple like that the belief the belief that there is something else that had the that something hasn't been tried. The belief that that the trust that like if a couple like that comes into my office the first place is can we look back at what may have happened over here. What was the journey? Where was the pain? What was the what was the pain? How did that pain emerge and how did you each react to that pain? And very often the reaction to the pain is is sometimes the fight and then when you fight and you fought enough then the next reaction is to pull back and and give up. Could we look at so many of these couples have not had guidance or they've had guidance that was taking them in in in in in the wrong direction but so many couples some of these couples have not had guidance and just it didn't work. In other words there there was so that the approach is like like so many issues things in life and you the name of this podcast is the struggle. There's a struggle. Marriage is a struggle. It just is. And what happens is people just give up on that struggle. It's just too painful. Going back and finding so where was the where was the point of that pain? What what happened? What hurt? Finding what hurt on one side finding what hurt on the other side and creating a trust to come back in and say was there something that we missed in each other? Was there something that that that happened somewhere along the way that that that was causing us pain and we didn't know how to deal with that pain so we pulled away from that pain. Maybe where we are now we can look at that pain. As a couples therapist how do you help a couple build trust back? So the the first step is to try to understand what happened. Really trying to understand what happened. Very often there's some kind of cycle that took place between them some kind of if they can see what may have happened from a more mature place. Now that now they're they're they're 10 years 15 years out out of out of what happened. The first step in building any kind of trust in the process is to can I step back and see what may have happened. And part of seeing what happened is when couples interact with each other they interact with each other at the level of behavior. So I behave a certain way and you interpret that behavior a certain way so you react back to me from the way you interpreted my behavior and then I react back to you in the way I I interpreted your behavior. We're we're we're reacting to each other from a place of interpreting each other's behavior. If I if I acted a certain way towards you I did something that was hurtful to you. So now you interpret it a certain way. What did I do? What was going on inside of me? Why did I act that way to you? Right now you're hurt. You don't really know that so you're just going to react to me from a place of you being hurt. What if I can have help that couple have a conversation where they're actually and now you're now you're hurting me and now I'm hurting you. All all it's just behavior interacting with each other. Being able to say so what what was going on inside of you when you when you behaved to me that way? What was what was your what did your internal world look like? What was your pain? You give him a little bit of clarity. Help them have a conversation about that. Helping them see it's not just there's a clarity. There's there's just the the the knowledge of what happened but then the experience of that. The experience of looking into your eyes and saying so when you did that to me when you walked out the door that wasn't because you're just an angry SOB and and and it was because you were hurting so deeply. And the reason why you were hurting so deeply is because there was something that I might have done to you that caused you that pain. But guess what? You know why I did that to you? Can you hear me now? Cuz I was hurting so deeply. Now could you listen to why what was going on inside of me? Having helping a couple have that conversation talking to each other and hearing what was What's on underneath. What was the process under underneath the behavior? Right. Right. We think we know our spouses. Married 20 years, I know. Don't Don't tell me who my wife is. Don't tell me how my husband I I've been there with them for 20. We don't. We know We We know so little because what we know is behavior. Because it's a reaction only. We react. >> Yeah, what What was I know I know my husband if he gets this and that he just withdraws and he walks out the door and my wife she yells and that's the behavior. And if I do this and this and this and she's going to yell. If I do this and this and this he's going to just walk out the door. We know that. Right. That's the surface. That That's just going on in the surface. Helping them have a conversation where what was going on inside you and really listening to each other. What was What was happening inside you when you did yell? What was happening inside you when you did walk out the door? So, what I hear from you that communication if if people would know how to communicate because that's why they're going to a third party Right. >> help helps them communicate with each other in a healthy level. >> Right. So, the word communication is a is a is a It's a very over-simplified word cuz Yeah, it's it's communication. It's all about communication, but we tend communication means We tend to think communication is about talking. Right. Everybody knows how to talk. Nobody knows how to communicate. Okay, really means can I sit here It It also includes talking. Right. But can I sit here and listen to you share what's going on inside of you and hold space for that? Just stay with that. Because what you're saying right now No, no, no. No, no, no, no. Let me Let me Let me Let me There's something about what you're saying that I really know Can I Can I stay and listen and really hear it through to the end? Right. And then can you stay and listen? Cuz what I When I hear you talking the husband and wife get into a fight. They're not talking to each other. And now you're going to explain your side of the story. I I My attention span is 0.03 seconds because the second you say something that doesn't sit with my version of reality I'm going to jump in and tell you why your version of reality is wrong. And then you're going to Can we Can Can I listen to your version of reality? It's wrong. It's wrong. It's 100% wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. That's not what happened. That's just not what happened. Right. But that's the experience that you were living in. Right. That's That's the place that you were That's That's your experience. Husbands and wives they interact with each other from the place of their internal experience, not from a place of Let's Let's say Let's say you have a a husband who walks into the house. Just Just to explain what I'm saying over here. Let's say you have a husband who walks into the house at 7:00. Hi, I'm home. And the wife is sitting in the kitchen with the five kids and she looks at him and she just fumes and walks away. And he looks at her and says, "Excuse me, I'm home." She says, "Thank you very much." she says to him. He's fuming and "What the bleep bleep bleep is the matter with you? Why can't And then she yells at him and he yells at her and they're not talking for 3 days until they get to the therapist's office. What happened? So So, when I try to pull it apart, what's what's what I'm hearing is he said he walked into the house at 7:00 and she was all upset at him because he he You told me when we spoke at 2:00 you said you're coming home at 6:00. Right. For the last hour I've been trying to reach you. You're not in the house. I'm going crazy with the kids. I had supper waiting for you at 6:00 on the table. Now it's Now it's cold. And you walk into the house at 7:00 like nothing. And he looks at her and says 6:00? I told you I'm coming home at 8:00. I told you I'm coming home at 8:00. What's 6:00? I told you I'm coming home at 8:00. And And I You know why you couldn't reach me between 6:00 and 7:00? Because I was rushing like crazy cuz I wanted to surprise you and come into the house an hour early. And And I walk into the house an hour early as a surprise and this is this is the this is the What did I get? No. What What's At that point, if they trust each other, if they could really listen to each other, are they in a fight? Of course not. There's no fight. >> No. There's There's There's a miscommunication. >> He was living in the experience of I said 8:00. She was living in the experience of you said 6:00. What actually happened at 2:00? We'll probably never know. We'll probably never know. And even if they texted each other, what they're still going to have two different interpretations of the text. We'll never know. And But what's what is important What's What's important What happens in a in a situation like that is the couple gets so hung up on who's right, who's wrong. Was it 6:00? Was it 8:00? And the whole conversation revolves around was it 6:00 or was it 8:00? It's not the conversation. What was your experience? And what was your experience? What was the meaning behind it? >> What was it? When you walked into the door and and your wife was angry at you would could you understand that if you said if you said 6:00 that she would be that angry at you? Yeah, I can understand that. That's where she was living. That was her experience of the universe. Now, could you understand that if your husband said 8:00 that he would be fuming at your reaction? Yeah, I can understand that. That was his experience. As As soon as we begin to understand each other's experience >> Right. the fight's over. Oh, so So And And So, I'm giving you a little mashal of fixing up. But what if it's Oh, so for the last 20 years you're living inside the experience that I'm this and this person. And for the last 20 years you're living inside the experience that I'm this and this person. That's crazy. Wow. We were living inside Once they talked to each other, we were living inside a different different space. Who's right? Who's wrong? Is it 6:00? Is it 8:00? We'll figure that out. We'll sit down We'll Or we'll try to make sure it doesn't happen next time. Right. But once I understand your reality and I see your experience and you understand my experience that's all we need. That's all we really need to be happy. The couple that are fighting over 6:00 or 8:00. Was it 6:00? Was it 8:00? Which is where most couples find themselves. Eventually they're just going to give up. It's impossible to live with this guy. He says he says 8:00 and he said he said 6:00. He says, "Yeah, I can't live with her." Hear each other's experience. Yeah. So So, communication So, what How did I get Communication means Can I hear you say I I said I'm coming home at 8:00? Right. That's not what I heard. >> moment >> Can I Can I still listen to you? Can I still hear that that was your experience? Can I Can I make room for that inside of me? And then she says, "You said 6:00." I know I know I didn't say 6:00, but can I Can I Can I hear that that was her experience? Now we're communicating. Yeah, because that that is very very important and you have to grab yourself while this is happening because when it's happening when it's hot >> Yeah, yeah, the triggers are the body is not cooperating. It's like >> heat is on it's like I'm not going to give you space. Yeah. As far as couples therapy, do you find that when young couples come in that there's a lot of you know, um you know, young or even not so young, but they were not sharing with each other a lot of stuff, a lot of hate and a lot of resentment and it comes out in in in the couples therapist's office. And sometimes it it gets worse so it makes So, it it gets better later. Of a sure that not yet. They're not sharing a lot of stuff. I mean, it It goes both ways. Sometimes they're sharing too much. Right. Sometimes they're not They're not sharing at all. But yeah, for sure there are a lot of things that remain unsaid that happens in your office. >> That happens in my office. What you're trying to do in therapy is create a safety for both. >> to express what the feelings are. Um There There could be situations where you know There are feelings. There are emotions that come up inside of us. Not always are we so happy with those emotions so we kind of push them away. Could there be room for that in a marriage even? Like like I'm really upset. It really really hurt me what you did. Right. Or I really don't like when you do that. I really don't like when you don't do that. I really don't like when I'm talking and you you totally ignoring me and looking at your phone. Like there are parts of you that really really bother me. If I If there's no room to express that it goes It goes It becomes more and more intense. It becomes more It builds up into deeper emotions. It builds up into deeper emotions. Very often we're afraid to go to negative emotions in a marriage cuz marriage is supposed to be beautiful. It's supposed to be really nice. Right. You just married somebody. Everybody was dancing by the by by the by the chasan and it was so happy. We were smiling. And then I get home and there's something about my chasan or something about my kallah that's really bothers me. I really don't like. Um I I just described 99% of marriages. It There There are things here that that I didn't realize. Right. Engaged I During the engagement I never saw it. In the dating I never saw it. Like what do we do? So, there's a strong tendency to just suppress it because we have a beautiful marriage. Right. And the idea that that a beautiful marriage means I need to suppress what is going on is is is dangerous. Right. That doesn't mean I need to complain about everything. But even to my for myself to be honest. Right. >> With my to say to myself Just Just to ignore. Just to ignore. Like there's there's there's a certain habit that my spouse has that really bothers me. So I could either different approaches. I could just say it doesn't bother me. Right. Make believe it doesn't bother me. Suppress it. Ignore it. And And go on with the relationship. Problem is it does bother me. Right. I could also say it does bother me. A more A more healthy approach would be You it does bother me. And now let me see. how important is it? Is it Is it something that I really want to I want to bring up to my spouse? Is it something that I could I could look the other way and just be okay with it? That's okay. That's a healthy approach. When we suppress what we're feeling, that's going to come up in the therapist's office as an explosion. Yeah, no, it's going to build up and it's not healthy. It's not healthy mentally, physically. >> have to I don't have to be I don't have to share with my spouse every single thing about them that bothers me because there's certain things that I you know what? Yeah. It's packaged. It's packaged. There's something But but to ignore it, to make believe >> Yeah. that it doesn't bother me when it does, that that's what catches up to us. That's what catches up to us and that's and that's what explodes. Being able to just be honest You say being honest with each other is first being honest with yourself. Be honest with yourself, what's going on inside of me. This is what I'm feeling and and from that place, once we're honest with it with ourselves, there's room to be honest with each other and and a relationship where we can be honest with each other, open with each other, we're not afraid, there's a safety to share what we're feeling. Right. Um that's When do you remember a time that a couple came in and they you you were saying or you saw that this is not going in a good direction and it kind of end up in divorce? A scenario like that. When do I When did I think that? Think or or actually happened? So I've thought that many times. It's not for me to say. Right. Um I'm not a navi. Uh I'm a therapist. My my I'm I'm here to help. >> But but you see you see that the couple sitting over there that that um or you know, that this is not going to work. >> There are couples that come into therapy and they it looks hopeless. Hopeless? Hopeless. Hopeless? It looks hopeless. It does. There are There are times when I look at the couple and just like God, why did you put these two people together? What what's >> the reason behind it? It could be any number of reasons. It could be It could be just so much pain, so much trauma, so much personality disorders, mental illness, or just just 20 years of enormous pain and and there could be things There's so much distance. The the the the the couple each on their own had pain or between them? It could be both. It could be either one. One of the One of the biggest reasons, one of the biggest things that that gets in the way of a you know, creates a certain hopelessness in the marriage, sometimes it's connected to mental to to mental illness or personality disorder, but sometimes but one of the one of the most important ingredients in a good marriage, but just just I'm going to say this, but I want to get back to the It's not the role of a couple's therapist, I I I believe, to ever say I don't think this marriage could work. That's not That's not never my role. You're there to help and to to coming to me to help. I'm going to help and to give hope. And the only the only way I'm going to stop trying to help is if they stop coming into my office. That's That's my That's my role. To pass judgment on, to say, you know, this marriage can't be helped is is not is not my role. Yeah, but I think as a trained professional, they tell you not to give advice. Yeah. No, it's not about giving advice. It's about letting the person come up with it themselves. >> Right. So So taking him through uh alleys and and valleys and then they have to find out if this is for them or not. They're empowered to do that. >> empowered, and also because I don't know. Right. That just as a as a person, I don't know. Right. I know that this marriage can never work. I don't know. I'm just going to try my best. Right. One of the one of the most hopeless places in in a marriage is I mean, one of one of these say this of marriage is there needs to be some sense of of I'm living inside a reality that's not yours and you're living inside a reality that's not mine. >> It's very important. Is it just this sense of of a subjective reality that that's And so for example, this couple with the 6:00, 8:00. Yeah. For some reason, you heard 6:00. For some reason, I heard 8:00. We don't know why. But there's there are differences between us. Two people look at the same thing, they see different things. We We are different. We're We're We're all different. No two people look at anything the same. Right. But there But is there a roles that let's say the husband has the role of being a a noison, he's the he's you know, and and she's the macao. Is there a leader? Is there important to have a leader in the house? Is it or when you say both are individuals and is it 100 100 50 50? Now you're touching on a whole different topic with that. Um People I mean, the times of must be a macao. You look at the translation. Must be a macao doesn't mean boss and servant. That's not We got to make that clear first of all. Um I'm just talking now about I'll I'll touch on that in a second, but I'm just talking on about just being able to see reality, acknowledge that we see things differently. And we always will. Right. And And that's all. When there's a need for you to see things my way, that's where the root of the problem is. >> And I need that that there's a no there's this sense of of No, this is what's real. Right. What do you mean I said 6:00? What What do you mean I That That can't be. That can't be. There's either a 6:00 or an 8:00. Most of life is built on our perception. And And And we have different There's actually the Gamara someone showed me in in Yerushalmi that uh Yerushalmi in Sanhedrin that says that that if if the the two pair of the Adam Bezen the two Adam come to Bezen, Bezen splits up the Adam and they question them separately to make sure that that everything is is in sync. And if it's not in sync, they know the Adam is false. And Yerushalmi says if it's in sync perfectly, it's also it's also It makes no sense. That's That's not That's not good. Like there's no way two people looked at the same event and saw the same thing. >> say the same story what they saw. They're going to tell the story differently. Like So for a husband and wife to acknowledge that we're living inside the same experience, but we're really not. Husband and wife that go through things. I've seen this seen so often husband and wife go through a tragedy together. Rachman l'tzlan, the loss of a child or some kind of tragedy that they're going through, a financial crisis. So you think, oh, they went through it together. Why they went They didn't. They They They, you know, they go through through an illness. I've seen couples go through an illness together where one of them is very sick and you think, oh, they went through it together. Very rarely do they go through it together. Each one is living inside of a different experience and being able to just to just acknowledge that It's true. is the key to good marriage. When a couple comes in, you talk about hopelessness, a couple when there's no ability to see that, when there's no ability to acknowledge subjective reality, that's like that's like the That's the beginning of a marriage. >> of an end. The beginning of a Yeah. A marriage can't survive in inside that because the reality is there are two experiences. And if we don't acknowledge that, no marriage can survive that. What if sometimes there is a couple one evolves and the other one, you know, is still staying where they were. Let's say one grew more than the other. And all of a sudden you hear, you know, it was going for a few years it was okay, but somehow one is outgrowing the other in in a in a lot of ways. Maybe in spirituality, maybe in other ways. What do you say to a couple like that? That's That's a That's a Like Like everything That's a What I'm going to try to do with a couple like that is bring that into a conversation between the two of them. Mhm. Like what's going What's going on? And what's Inside of what you're asking, there's a lot of other questions. What's called growth? What's called movement forward? And also what is growth mean to you and what does growth mean to you? What does growth mean to you? Where I see what you're saying, where it shows up, um where it shows up a lot is one couple is in therapy for 10 years. And they've explored their inner world in such deep ways and and and the other couple the other the other the other one is just like in their place and they're What's called depth? What's called? Does it mean I have to have a DMC till 3:00 in the morning or could it mean like There's a lot of depth in having fun. There's a lot of depth in just being >> everything It means different to everyone. >> It means different to everyone. And having the couple look at it from that perspective, and why are you not growing the way I perceive growth? It's really It's a subjective reality. It's also having And And the other spouse may see no need to grow in that way. You know, I'm not the Maybe I'm not doing all those things that I'm not sitting there and then exploring my inner world and growing, but maybe I'm doing something else that has growth. Maybe I'm busy with a chesed organization. What How we define growth, that's a subjective reality conversation that they talk about with each other. You mentioned the the noison macao, the mashia macao case. I would would want to come back to that when you Yeah, yeah, yeah. So So So the So what I hear from you is that you're saying that one is not supposed to come up to the other and the other is supposed to Who says what Who is supposed to be up and who is supposed to be down? Who makes the rules? So So rules is it So the word rules >> Yeah. Once Once you Once you Once you sprinkle the word rules into marriage, That's out. It's It's You know, dieting. Right. >> I'm talking about being I'm I'm relating this to food. Okay. Uh all the research on diets, dieting, pretty much shows clearly that diets don't work. Okay. >> Diets generally don't work. And but everybody's going on diets. >> Right. And what I mean by they don't work is, yeah, I lost 50 lb, but come back in 12 months. Right. Come back in 2 years. Right. You keep the 50 lb off? So there are people who do, but statistically, when I say it doesn't work, statistically, You mean to say a healthy lifestyle, change your mindset. Really what needs to change is my relationship with the food. You say when you say healthy lifestyle, my relationship with the food needs to change. My relationship with the whole concept of eating needs to change. If I can't develop a good relationship with food, if you give me rules, it'll work. I'll lose weight. I'll be healthy as long as I can keep the rules until the day comes when I can't not stop keeping the rules. The same thing happens in a marriage. You give a couple rules, so many times the questions about marriage are what are the rules for finances? What are the rules for who who runs this? Who runs that? Who's What are the What are the rules of What are the rules of Who who gets to choose a kind of if If the the real the problem if a couple comes in asking what the rules are, Right. the first question I want to know is why do they need rules? Right. What's going on in the relationship that they need rules? What what's what's their relationship with other If there if there's a relationship with each other, then we'll talk it through. They may not need the rules. What if a couple is not arguing and they're not fighting? Uh it's just one person says uh I just I feel lonely in the marriage. I feel alone. I don't have any connection and there's no coming home late, there's no coming home early. I just feel lonely. Is it is it a spouse who is lonely has a self-esteem issue? Is it the spouse that feels like a stickle codependent on on that I need an outer environment to make me feel good or two lone two people who are comfortable to be alone can make a good marriage? So the word lonely, it's a big word. I like And the first step in that is just to look at what what's what's taka happening. Like what's Couples come in with words. Yeah. Communication, lonely, I think. >> What what's happening on the ground? We're sitting and talking about concepts and perception, but what's what's really happening also makes a difference. >> Right. So, I I I know couples who spend all day together. Right. They they go shopping together, they go spend all day Sunday together with the kids and they go to Costco and they go to and during the day they spend all and one spouse feels lonely. Yeah. That's that's one type of question, what's happening, and the other question would be you know, my husband comes home at 3:00 in the morning cuz he's out with his friends and he leaves at 6:00 and I never see him and I have no and I feel lonely. Duh. Like there's no When you say the word lonely, I want I want to know what's happening in the marriage. Because there could be I'm lonely because there's just we don't know not we don't know or it's too painful for us to connect for some reason. Usually there's there's a pain that's that's keeping us from connecting. And why is your husband coming home at 2:00 3:00 in the morning? So So in other words, I'm lonely could mean there is no marriage going on. Right. I'm lonely could also mean there's a marriage going on, there's an inability to connect, there's something that I'm looking for in a relationship, there's something I'm looking for in a spouse, and I'm not able to connect to that, which is which is opens up a whole 'nother door into the topic of what what's a marriage supposed to be. >> Right. Generally people who come into marriage with a deep sense of loneliness, a deep sense of insecure attachment, a deep sense of I'm all alone in this world. Yeah. There's this existential loneliness. I I I and I I'm lonely because we're all born into the world alone and then hopefully there's a mother or father who looks at us and hugs us and kisses us and makes us feel not alone. Um if I went through a childhood feeling not alone because I had a mother who hugged me and a father who hugged me and it was just a there was I just felt not alone. Right. My my existential loneliness was aided by a family that that that that cared for me emotionally, that I got the warmth and I got the connection. When I go into a marriage not alone and I go into a marriage looking for a partner, looking I'm also looking not to be alone, that marriage will help me feel not alone. If I go into a marriage feeling alone because I never got connection, I never got I never got a sense of I I I looked into my mother's eyes, I looked in my father's eyes, I I didn't get that feeling. I didn't I didn't feel I felt alone and I'm now 20 years old and I feel completely and totally alone in the world. And now I get married, there's a very good chance that I will continue to feel alone in this marriage. Correct. You will keep on looking for this to fill this void. There's something I'm looking for to fill this. >> Yeah. And there's this belief that a marriage is supposed to fill this. Right. Marriage doesn't Marriage doesn't do that. Marriage is a partner for life. Marriage is a lot of things. And marriage could help me with a lot of things. If I'm looking to marriage to help me feel a certain way about myself, >> Right. it almost always fails. It'll work in the first 6 months because we're so uh you know, but at some point it's going to stop working. At some point the feeling I'm going to go back I'm going to revert back to my baseline feelings of being alone and then I'm going to be upset at my spouse because my spouse is supposed to fill this feeling. And it just doesn't work. >> That's very powerful stuff. So, in one word, in short, if you can explain me what is marriage? What is marriage? One one word? If you can. So, we'll do a little bit more than one word. And and and I you know, marriage is so big Right. that I'm not going to tell you that the answer I'm going to give you is the definitive answer. But just for for for a person who is listening and they say talking about marriage, yeah. direction in terms of how how do I how do we think about marriage? Healthy marriage. Um So, we have to do work around the world. We do work around the world alone. And one of the things that we don't have in life is the ability to just be ourself. Just I want to be me. Being able to be myself and having somebody hold that is is a very deep connection. It's as close as we can come to feeling that. It's not going to fill this. It's not going to It's not going to do this. But it's it's the most we can expect in this world uh in terms of of of connection. In other words, if I want to connect to you, right? So, I want I want to have a deep connection with you. So, I know that you're a Yankee fan and I'm a Mets fan. So, I'm going to make believe I'm also a Yankee fan. That's why we can be friends, right? >> Right. That's that's not real connection. I I put on a facade, I put on a mask so that I connect to you. Wow. In life we do that all the time. We we put on facades, we put on masks. Some more, some less. The closer a friend is to me, the less of a mask I have. The The further away, the more of a mask I have. I go into a supermarket, I'm not going to show my I'm not going to walk over to somebody and say can I share with you my deepest pain? Like it's not like there's a I'll smile even though I'm having a really bad day and I really want to just kvetch. Hi, how are you? I smile. There's a mask on. And we walk around the world with masks. We we have to. That's That's what allows us to interact with each other. We all walk around with some level of mask. And that that adds to the loneliness, that whatever the feeling over here is makes it more lonely. One of the things we're all looking for is to be I want to be myself. I just want to be me. And the only way to really be me is in connection because I don't want I could be I can go to the top of a mountain by myself and be me, but that's not me. Me is also Me is also a social I like I want to be me and I want to connect as me. Wow. And the the the more I can be me, the deeper the connection is with you. If you accept me with all my garbage, Yeah. and I could really I I could show up as me and still connect to you, now I feel deeply connected and deeply me. The less of the facade that I have to put up to connect, the more First of all, the more I can be myself. Right. And and the more I can connect. Marriage is a place we can be ourselves. Wow. It's it's it's really People think of marriage as connection. It's all about connection. So, no, it's a I mean it is. >> It is, but >> a place that I can show up safely as me. Where Where else in the world can I show up safely as me? That's amazing what you're saying. What what I hear that you're describing is that marriage is the most beautiful thing in the world. Could be. Yeah. It it should be. >> Could be. Yeah. Being alone like on a mountain, living for yourself is not an option. Right. You're not You're not being fulfilled. But if you can have a partner, you can be in a marriage, and you can be 100% authentic, you can express yourself, you can be comfortable, and you can be seen, Right. it is the most powerful thing in the world. Most powerful thing in Because it's fulfilling. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's an unbelievable place that you can express yourself or you can you you hold each other like what you said before, understanding that I see things from my perspective, you see things from your perspective, and having an open mind. I don't have that. I don't have that. If I can show up just as me and and you look at me and say I don't understand you, but hi, welcome. Yeah. I don't have to understand everything that's going on inside of you. You can You can Marriage is a place we can be me We can undress, literally, figuratively and literally. It's the only place in the world where we get to undress and just be ourselves. Yeah. It full self-expression. You know, that's that's It's a It's It's It's very well explained what marriage is supposed to be because it is beautiful. If you can get to that place >> place, >> with the communication. >> place to be. to. It's an >> place because you walk through a not an easy world and not an easy life and challenges. And when you walk through this life with a partner like that, you can really be yourself. You don't want to look anywhere else. You Nothing is is >> And if you you'll put this together with what we said before, in order to attain that, >> Yeah. I need to be able to starting point. It sounds like marriage people have this illusion of marriage as two people who are just We're so the same. We're so wow. He's just like me. We we finish each other's sentences. That's a disaster. That's not what this is all about. >> the real cuz if I if I if I need you to show up as me Yeah. in order to for us to connect, we're not really I'm not really connecting to you. >> Yeah. Once we have this sense of we're different and we always will be different and there are parts of you I may never understand and parts of me that you may never understand. And it's okay. >> And it's okay. And and show up. Show up as you are. Show up. >> Yeah. That's that's the doorway into a happy marriage. >> That is uh that is uh the the bomb. That is where that's the goal where you're supposed to go. But let me ask you a funny question. And this happens a lot. Um can a marriage survive without intimacy? Because there's a lot of times that um on both sides of the aisle, people are using this as a as sometimes a punishment or sometimes they're like done. Right. They're like for whatever the reason is. But is So, define the word survive. Yeah. Are we are we staying together cuz we have eight kids and we we have to make sure they we just got to get them out of the house. Yeah, a marriage can survive without intimacy if that's what you mean by survive. And very sadly there are marriages like that. There are marriages like that, but survival is not what we're looking for. >> It it it's it's Intimacy is especially you take it to to the place The way we discuss this place of of I I could show up as me. Intimacy is the place where we show up in almost the in in the deepest way as me. Right. And I said literally and figuratively. So, literally we take our clothes off. That that's Right. If that's not happening, there's a part of me that's that's just not showing up in this marriage. >> There there's a distance over there because that's the that that's what brings very you you're more comfortable and and and you're open. It's it's it's Now, I want to be careful over here cuz I don't want to push aside. There are very sadly marriages that are surviving. Mhm. And there are people who are staying in marriages as a survival. Like when I said we're going to stay together, we survive because we have eight kids. I don't want to hurt people. When I say that I have to be careful cuz there are people who are saying, you know what? This marriage can't work. But I have a bunch of kids and they didn't do anything wrong. Right. And or maybe I have a spouse who didn't do anything wrong. So, I'm going to I'm going to push through. I'm going to survive. I'm sacrificing. Maybe even without intimacy. I'm going to survive for the sake of my children. Sake of holding this house together. Sometimes for the sake of a spouse who through no fault of their own is not somebody that I feel I could live with or have a really good relationship with who I you know I married the wrong person and but now here we are with with a bunch of kids and a marriage and I could leave Right. and destroy a whole bunch of people's lives. Right. So, I'm going to I'm going to push through. We're sitting here talking about the ideal beautiful wonderful marriage. >> Right. I would also have a tremendously deep respect for somebody who does that because at some level they are expressing their deepest self in the marriage. If What about by staying by surviving? >> by staying and surviving, I'm expressing a value. If I'm staying in a marriage for my kids, >> Right. Right. I might be expressing a much deeper part of who I am Right. than if I leave. than if I leave and try to find a marriage where I could find this ultimate I'm I'm staying in a marriage where I don't have this relationship. Why am I staying there? It could be I'm staying there because myself, the me that I'm really expressing over here, is a love for my children. The me that is a value to not hurt other people's lives. So, what you're My own selfish reason. That like it's not So, we're saying all this, but I want to have I want to show respect really for the people who are who are staying in marriages that are not these ideal marriages. >> So, what I'm hearing you saying is that this is a heroic act a lot of times. >> Very Sometimes I've seen people engage in heroic acts like this and and and and it's And for those people, what I would tell those people is very often like if somebody's sitting there saying, wow, I'm listening to this ideal of marriage as this place where I can just be me be me be me. But how do you define being me? Maybe being me is going to the core of my deepest self and saying, I'm going to do this for my kids. I I just I just want to make room for that. It's it's it's a I like the way you look at it always from both sides of the aisle. Right. And and and for somebody who says, I can't Yeah. even for my kids, have the same respect. The same respect. It it it that's that's Only they know what pain they could hold, what pain they can't hold, what pain So, we're sitting here describing the beautiful beautiful beautiful marriage, >> Right. but the same amount of respect needs to be shown sometimes to people who are not in good marriages or just surviving. Wow. Wow. It's amazing stuff. What about sometimes you probably heard you see a lot of people that you can see between couples there is some sort of competitiveness. Like a wife would be jealous of their husband. So, let's say if her husband is whatever going places and he's you know he's in the community and he's doing people to do Whatever. He's doing He's getting honored at certain places or the other way around and the spouse is not there to share months. The spouse is not really not happy. They feel that somehow it affects them. It's not you know it's not oneness. So, that I'm going to I'm going to approach that from two different angles because there could be one of two different things. I mean it could be one of a hundred different things, but generally two different things that might be going on. The jealous spouse Yeah. might be might need to look inside themselves and explore that there's something happening in this relationship which is really coming from outside the relationship. There's some insecurity. There's something >> Right. You're looking In other words, you're looking for something from this relationship which is probably not coming from a healthy place inside of you. All right. There's There's There's your spouse is bringing up something in you or you're looking for something in your spouse that's being sabotaged by your spouse's success. Right. If my spouse's success bothers me, hurts me, then I really need to look inside myself and what are my own insecurities? What am I looking for from my spouse to give me that my spouse is taking away from me? Like there's something my spouse is taking something away from me right now. And what's going on inside of me that I need to look at this about my spouse from that place. What am I missing? What am I missing over here? That that's one way to approach it. It would be it would be really the individual work of that spouse to look at themselves. That spouse must have introspect. That spouse must be aware that that is happening. >> And and very often that's the challenge to help somebody get to that place of introspection. That's uh yeah. That's that's uh be the job of a therapist or a rabbi or a friend or somebody to to sit them down and go this like Yeah. There's a competitiveness over here. What's what's underneath it? There's always something underneath that. It's not When we look at oh this competitiveness, that's not where it's interacting. There's there's a level below where there's some kind of need where there's some kind of emotional insecurity that's creating the competitiveness. But that that's one way to look at it. Another another Sometimes you need to keep a broad view of what's happening. We look at the one who's jealous. We look at the one who's like what's wrong with them? But sometimes the spouse who's successful may be pulling away from the relationship because of that success. And sometimes that's what causes In other words, they might be a looking down on that person or I don't need you so much right now because I'm very popular. I got I got all this. And if some of that is going on, that it sometimes needs to be looked at from the other from the other angle. Like what's the It really needs to be explored what's happening. Don't It can't It's not the one one paintbrush. You can't jump to conclusions and sometimes it's a little bit of both. Sometimes it might it might be a it might be a little bit of each one, but those are the two general places where to look in terms of competitiveness. Competitiveness by itself is is something underlying that is either one spouse's insecurity or the other spouse pulling away. >> Because naturally it's not There's a spouse and a a couple should you know I want to say I'm so proud. Look at my wife. I'm so proud of her. Look at my husband. I'm so proud It shouldn't be a competition naturally. There's there's There's an There's an insecurity there. Or there's either an insecurity or There's some truth to Or there's somebody who's pulling away and finding their their stuff in the world instead of at home. What about a spouse who feels that they they just have to ask for basic respect? It's just I'm not asking for anything crazy. I'm not asking for anything. They feel like they have to explain themselves of what respect means. The the is not even aware of what is going on. The behavior or the way they're talking. Basic respect. So, when a spouse is in a situation where one spouse is just not respectful. One spouse is putting down the other spouse. One spouse is not So, number one, I'll tell you I'm envisioning a couple like this coming into my office. The first step is to see to make sure that that's exactly that that that's really what's going on. Um Is there really a lack of respect going on? And usually that's that's that will show up. Anybody who tries to help a couple with Shalom Bayit and only talks to them separately is is missing not half the picture, 90% of the picture. If one spouse says the other spouse doesn't talk to me respectfully and the other spouse says and then I speak to the other spouse, "No, I don't know what I don't know what I don't know what I don't know what he's talking about. I don't know what she's talking about." And then and then you have to try to figure out put them in front of you. You can read this in 2 minutes. >> Within within not 2 minutes, but within like 2 hours, it all comes up. It all shows up. And that's why you know it's couples therapists will only see couples together. Like like almost the time see them together as as as a But I've seen people work on Shalom Bayit where they work on each spouse individually. If anybody is working on the Shalom Bayit problem in that way, it it's it's can create more problems than it does cuz the person who's trying to help is trying to figure out based on what I hear from you, what I hear from you. Let's see together. So, if there's a lack of respect, the first place I would go if one spouse tells me, let's say I'm talking to the wife and she says, "My husband just he talks with such a lack of respect." I I I want to hear the husband's what what's going on the other side. And I want to see them together. So, that's the first step. Is there If I if you see that there really is a lack of respect happening and I'm I'm taking it it's almost like you can draw a flow chart over here. Like like taking different directions. The what's happening inside of him could be so many different things. There could be he could be on one end he could be just a narcissist or a jerk even though that's not an official diagnosis, but there are people that fit that that that description. And either needs so and and and you know, needs needs therapy for that. In other words, what's happening inside of you? He could be clueless and just needs some education. He could need maybe he needs some hand-holding. Maybe he needs just some some some guidance. Or maybe there's something happening in the relationship. Maybe he has a he has a certain perception. Sometimes people have a certain perception of what's happening on the other side. And and needs guidance over there. So, it's I'm not answering your question because there's so many different pieces of lack of respect. If it's taka just my husband is a jerk and a narcissist, then it then he then then he needs help or you need help addressing that. But can someone learn how to be more respectful? Like this I feel like this is something coming from So, if it if it's just the cluelessness, then the answer is yes. There are people I just not aware of how many people just go into marriage not saying that's why I think it's so important sometimes just to catch the stuff in Shalom Bayit just to catch it at the beginning and it's a shame that we don't. But just to catch it at the beginning because there are people who literally don't know. I've seen this. They don't don't know what respect is. They don't know. Literally they they they either they didn't learn and you or back in a in a dorm room with a bunch of guys is different than showing respect to your wife or you grow up in a family that would And very often especially in Shalom Bayit it could be just some guidance. Just some paradigm shifting. Just some you know, when you say this this becomes very hurtful. You know, if somebody would say that to you is that would you be hurt? Yeah, maybe. Okay. Like like just as simple as that. And then then so that that could be it's it's surprising how much could be taught. There's a lot of teaching that that that could solve this. If you catch it early. If you catch it 20 years later it's it's already it's built on And but if it's coming from a place of narcissism, if it's coming from a place of then there's there's probably a lot of therapy that's necessary. I I have seen people change. I wouldn't give up on it, but it but it's it probably needs a lot of work. It probably needs a lot of therapy and the other spouse it's the spouse who's being disrespected could be helped to be more empowered. That's what I was going to ask you next. I'm sorry if you talk to me like that, then the answer is no. I'm going to When you want to come back and talk to me more respectfully, then I'll listen to you, but right now I can't listen to you when you talk to me like that. Or if you know, if you're if you're yelling at your above a certain decibel I I don't have the ability to hear so I'm going to walk away. Right. The ability of the other spouse to stand up when you have a when you have a somebody who who's narcissistic, sometimes the most powerful intervention is not with that with with with with the problematic spouse, but with the healthy spouse. It's the victim to build themselves up. That's what I was going to ask you. What happens if one of the if the spouse is afraid to rock the boat. This guy is so disrespectful. It's quiet and I know if I'm not going to stand up for myself and then I have a better day. And and and what what's your advice? That's stand up. So, that's something you're asking me what's my advice? I don't have advice. I don't give advice. Um and the but the reason why that I have no advice is because they have to figure it out. I will help them figure it out. That that question I don't want to rock the boat is a legitimate question. Um especially if I have kids and I'm going to create you know had this I'm sitting by the Shabbos table and my husband or my wife is is creating a you know, doing something that's totally totally inappropriate or being being disrespectful to me I can stand up for myself and destroy the whole Shabbos table, create a whole pandemonium, create a whole scene impact the kids or I could just keep quiet. That's that's a decision that people really really have to walk through and and weigh both sides and it's it's not just a decision that you make once. It might be a decision you make every single day. Um What about projection? Like you mentioned before, projection is is we see things the way we see it. Right? Yeah. So, here's a couple who's getting married or two people are living together. Right. And he is wired a certain way. Okay, he sees things a certain way. He he says that does business a certain way. Let's say one is more aggressive than the other. So, or he's not trusting. He is a type of guy who you know, he went through the wringer and he doesn't trust anybody now. So, now he looks at everybody as you know, as you can't trust. Now, he'll look at the spouse also. He's not going to trust the spouse because in his mind he thinks that she thinks the way he thinks. And how is another spouse in the I'm sure the other spouse does the same way. Let's say if she's a softy and she is forgiving and she is everybody's beautiful and everybody's fine. He she thinks that he is like that. You follow what I'm saying? I sure do. So, how does a couple like that understand that he has a different wiring which we understand also we cannot change another person. Right. A person could change himself if they want to. Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom for it. But normally a person doesn't change. So, there are two people over here and projecting each other's ideas onto onto each other. So, you're describing a process that comes into couples therapy literally every single day. >> Every day. This this is and the basic answer is can they begin to talk to each other and really hear each other? The the the problem very often when couples I mean you talk about projecting. It it goes even deeper than that because the way I see you right? Has so much to do with what's going on inside of me right? So, I'm seeing I'm seeing an interpretation of you. I'm seeing my interpretation of you. I'm not seeing you right? Correct. I'm seeing my interpretation of you and you're seeing your interpretation of me. And our interpretations of each other are what's communicating. You and me are not communicating. Right. Um Can I help them go into a conversation where you and me actually begin to talk to each other? Right. And that goes back to you said communication to the listening. Like I know that this is how I how I see you. But now I'm going to listen to what you have to say. This to hear what somebody is saying is very hard if I have a projection on them cuz what you're saying doesn't stem with what I see. Another another layer of that is even if I'm I'm projecting on you. I I see you. And the truth is all I see is your behavior. I don't see you. You see my behavior. I see your behavior. We don't we don't see each other. And then when I and then I have to I have to interpret your behavior using my projection and you're going to interpret my my behavior using projection. At that point we're not listening to each other. The words are almost meaningless at that point. I know you're saying this and this and this, but the proof is in the pudding. Look how you behaved. You're saying this, but you behave like that. Did you behave like that? Or was that a projection? Did you Another layer Keep on saying another layer of that is who I am. And when a couple gets to realize this, it could be very powerful to further relationship. Who Who am I in terms of I don't mean who am I in a existential place. I haven't got a clue. But who am I in terms of how I am in the world, how I show up, how I behave, what So, I'm here with you. You see me a certain way. In my office with clients, I'll show up maybe a different way. In my kitchen in my house, I'll show up a different way. With my kids in my church, I'll show up a different way. In school, I'll show up a different way. Who I am has so much to do with who I'm with. There's There's no We're not We don't live by ourselves. We interact with people. So, how I show up is so tied in to the to the person on the other side of what's showing up. Am I Am I Am I Do I feel there's something I need to defend from you? Does it feel like something I or Which part of me do you bring out? Right. And very often in marriage, people bring out who I marry will will The person I marry will bring out certain elements of me that that If I married somebody else, different things would have been brought out. Um if I if a If I have a very strong spouse who takes charge, Right. the part of me that takes charge may diminish. diminish. Even though there was Before I got married, there was a There was a take charge part of me. Mhm. But in this marriage, you know, I I I'll I'll give you the room to take charge. That's So So a different part of me comes up. Right. When I look at my spouse, am I seeing my spouse? Am I even seeing a projection of my spouse? Not I'm not even Not even that. I'm seeing a projection of my spouse the way they are with me. That's all I'm seeing. And who's the me that's showing up the way I am with them? There's a feedback loop that's going on between us. There's a cycle that's happening between us. When When a couple can really begin to talk to each other and get underneath that, peel away all the layers to the original >> me are going to talk to each other and suddenly there's a realization. So you So you were like that because you experienced me a certain way. But the way you experienced me had to do with the way I experienced you, which had to do with the way I experienced me, which had to do with the way I experienced you. And that's And that's that's That's our relationship for the last 25 years. Right. So, how do you peel that away? >> So, that's That's The The process is Can I get them to begin to hear each other? So, it's a very to slow everything down, get to a place of where the emotions begin to come up in the conversation. Can Can you really Can you hear what your spouse just said? And if the answer is no, I can't, so what's going on inside of you that that's preventing you from hearing it? Then let's see if we can work on that. We just We want to peel away layers in ourselves that might be getting in the way of allowing us to hear what our spouse is saying. Right. You and me talking to each other Right. is is the goal. It's It's It's It's a Can Can I get there? Because most of the time you and me are not talking to each other. Wow, but it's an art. It's It's a work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Marriage is a lot of >> Marriage is a lot of Marriage is an enormous amount of work. >> Enormous amount of work. Also, it's mind work. It's It's uh It's not so simple. It's not simple. Relationships is work. Relationships The truth is we we're not People are coming into marriage without the appropriate education of what a marriage is. I mean, we we It's the most complicated thing in life and there's no lessons. Yeah, there's or very few. Or there's lessons before marriage. Right. There's a lot of stuff out there. There's lessons before marriage. But once they get married, nobody's I I really believe the first first year for sure of marriage just needs ongoing ongoing guidance. That That That really should be Otherwise, it's it's it's really complicated. How would you know? And And especially also today, it's more We We We expect more from marriage. That's also something that's just historically Our Our great-grandparents probably didn't expect as much from their marriages as we >> Why you fluent? It's because of you know, the social media and people know more and there's more knowledge and everyone needs a Everybody knows everything and it's the The expectations are huge. >> The expectations of marriage today are huge. Yeah. But there there's uh If you've heard of Esther Perel, Esther Perel is a is a is a is a is a is a couple's therapist who wrote a brilliant writer. Um She One of her lines is that what what we used to what we used to seek from a village, we now look for in our spouse. Wow. Our spouse is everything to us. We look for We We look to our spouses for All right, they're going to take away this pain. They're going to be We have a whole list of things that our spouse is going to fill. >> Whatever we're missing, what we need to work on ourselves, we are looking for it from our spouse. And if we don't get it, there's a price to pay. Right. So, there's an illusion out there out there. That Historically, how that illusion developed, I I don't know. Um but that illusion is out there. I think our great-grandparents didn't didn't live with that illusion. We have an illusion of what marriage is supposed to be. And when it's not, it's it's painful. And it it it's Marriage is is is a partnership. It's a place where we can show up as myself, you can show up as yourself. >> What is that What is that illusion? Is it a Hollywood like glitz and glamour >> is there is a concept of romantic love, which which historically, it's it's fascinating. Like you tell this to somebody in the Western world today that they They'll look at you like you're crazy. But historically, romantic love was not a prerequisite for marriage. It wasn't. I'm not talking I'm not talking Yiddishkeit. I'm not talking in the Jewish world. I'm not talking religious. I'm talking about in the secular world. Historically, there there are books written on this where that that um Historically, if you go back 100 years, 200 years ago, this this concept of romantic love We We We fall deeply in love with each other and that's the core of a marriage. That's the core of a relationship. Was Was not It was not the main the main source. >> That was not what That was not the glue that held the marriage together. If we stay together and I can show up as me and you can show up as you, and we have We're going to We're going to fall in love. We're going to have this loving relationship. >> the idea going in? Was it more of a business idea? >> A business. A A A We're going to build something. >> We're going to build something. Children, a relationship. We're going to We're going to work together. We're going to commit our lives to each other to build something together. >> Right. We're going to make it work. So, what you're saying is love was secondary. Love Love was an outcome. Correct. Love Love was was a result. of of what we're of what we're doing. To say to Yeah, there there was There was definitely this romantic love. It existed, but it wasn't looked at as a prerequisite for marriage. It was something that flowed from the relationship. That's That's crazy. That's crazy. But let me ask you, while we're on the topic of technology, social media and stuff like that, there's a lot of access to it. If someone is stuck on it, and someone spiraled down that that road, and doesn't matter who, one of the spouses, Right. and it gets out of control a little bit, and they're going to sites they're not supposed to go, or porn sites, or whatever the case is. Right. How should the other spouse look at this? Is Could Could this be called cheating? So, the question is is is pornography cheating? Yes, that that that And And uh The only reason why I'm hesitating is cuz I know there are other There are different opinions on this. But if I didn't hesitate, >> I would tell you my opinion, yeah, it is cheating. The reason why it's cheating is cuz I'm I'm going outside the relationship It's not the same as sleeping with another person, obviously. But I'm going outside the relationship for a pleasure that you and I understand only the relationship is supposed to give you. Our relationship is supposed to be is is sacred. And part of that sacredness is I'm going to be the source of your sexual pleasure. That's That's just this basic understanding of what marriage is. I'm going to be the source of your sexual pleasure. You're going to be the source of my sexual pleasure. And that's That's part of the glue of our relationship. What are you saying? When you need something, you come to me. When I need something, I come to you. That's That's That's That's a trust that we have with each other. That's something that that we're we're That's part of what we're building together. You're going outside the relationship, even if it's not with a real person, but you're going outside the relationship to fill that pleasure in you. That means you're not going to come to me exclusively for that pleasure. That's very painful. That That is experienced as a betrayal. If you want to look at it as Technically, is it a betrayal? I I I I don't know if I would even ask that question. It's The experience of the of the spouse who's being hurt is he doesn't need me or she doesn't need me for this part of the for for this most sacred part of the relationship. That's going to be experienced as a betrayal. Right. So, even though the spouse would say that nothing against you know, they're pretty much pretty decent marriage. They're living a good life. He's just addicted to it. Addicted to it. And And in that sense, there's a lot There's a lot more work to do. It's a lot easier to overcome that than if there was a real betrayal where he you know, he was sleeping with another woman or she was sleeping with another man. That's obviously a much more difficult situation. So, there is There is something to be said for Yeah, it's not There was no There was not another person. At the same time, it's not you know, it's not like you have a tie before candy and you're eating candy behind my back. This is something core to the relationship. This is something that's sacred to the relationship. And you're you're you're it's going to hurt our relationship. You're you're not going to come to me for the most sacred part of our relationship. >> Right. That's That hurts. Right. Because there's something being severed here. There's something being severed. This is a core relationship piece. That's a very core relationship. I I've I've actually had a husband say to me, "And if I if I if I uh eat pastrami sandwiches behind your back and and the Right. then you know, and I gained weight and or I it it it it's This is The line I've heard is this is between me and God. It's not between me and you. It's between me and God. That I don't I don't buy that. Yeah, you don't buy that. Now in in that way you want to build a solid It It's >> Right. Right. Now, as far as um um financials, let's talk about financials. >> Okay. Um and this is where I'm going to come bring you into a mashpia and a mekabel. Okay. Because um if you want to go down that route, you know, the spiritualism, that a husband is supposed to come in, is supposed to is supposed to know his role. And his role is to be a giver. And the wife is not a taker, she's a receiver. And all you need to know is that you're the giver. Right. >> You're the man in the house. So, is it his responsibility fully? Is my question. Um is he supposed to share everything about the finances? Which means sometimes he has bad days, good days. Sometimes he got involved with some debt. That she's not You know, I mean, if he's not seeing that she's benefiting from knowing uh how bad the situation is, we'll get out of it and this and that. He's a man now. Right. Um how should someone handle that? And sometimes I've heard from women from who are very upset that he's doesn't share. I want to know. I want to know what's going on. So, you're touching >> on rules now also. Like what what's What is the right way Right. to do this? What are the rules in terms of finances? And again, I'll just say that the the the first part of the answer would be let's step let's step away from what's what's supposed to happen. Right. What's going on between the two of you? Right. Is there if if you know, how are you interpreting being a giver? How are you interpreting being a receiver? What what's what's You're defining every word of of You're saying when when someone says, "I am the mashpia." Yeah. What is a mashpia? What your role is a mashpia? So, let let me let me just spend a second defining mashpia and defining mashpia and mekabel. Mashpia is the one who's giving. There's a shefa. There's a shefa from me coming to you. Right? >> The lashon, the word shefa, the word mashpia is If you look at the words that were chosen by the by Torah is is is is it's it's a beautiful word. Shefa. It It's It's a flow. There's There's a flow from me to you. It's a very soft word. It's not It's not a hard word. It's not a harsh word. Right. >> It's even softer than nice and it's it's something very soft about the There's There's a flow from me to you. And the word mekabel, like I'm going to hold it. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to receive it. It's not like you're grabbing it or uh There's a shefa in this in this receiving. When you when you soften it, when you soften the tone in that >> Right. it takes on a whole different a whole different meaning. So, for a husband, let's say a husband says, "I'm I'm I'm the I'm the masculine one. I'm masculine. Masculine means strength. Masculine means, right? And she's feminine. Feminine means softness. Mekabel, right? So, what's masculine? I'm the strong one. Right? If I say to you, "I'm the strong one. I'm the masculine. I'm the giver. So, this is what we're going to do. And this is how we're going to run the finances. And and I I I I hear that you want to say something right now, but I I'm I don't have to listen to you. Like Oh, you want to know about what the deal I made yesterday? I That's I'm not that I'm I'm in charge of you. Do you hear weakness in that? Or do you hear strength? This is This is not shefa. That's for sure not. >> even strength. Yeah, no. It's not masculine. It's not Masculine means strength. What's strength? Strength is I'm secure. Strength is I I If I'm strong, if I'm masculine, if I'm the mashpia, Right. what is giving to you? And And you you have an opinion. You You want to ask me something. If I'm too weak, if I'm too scared, if I'm too insecure to listen to what you want and consider it and talk to you about it, that's not masculine strength. That's That might even be called feminine. That's weakness. It's It's I'm not being the giver. I'm not being I'm not exerting my masculine strength. My masculine strength, I'm going to show up as a gavra. Yeah. I'm going to show up as a masculine Masculine means I'm so strong that I could hear any disagreement that you have with me. Let me hear. Let me hear what you have to say. I want I want to consider your opinion. I want to know what you have to say. I want to know what hurts you. I want to know what what Is there something I'm doing that you totally disagree with? Like I could I could listen to that. This It's not touching my insecurities. If I have to shut you down, that's coming from an insecure place in me. The mashpia is not a mashpia if he's not listening to his spouse. If he's not talking it through. If he's not understanding it. So, if a husband says, "I don't have to do what my wife says." Sure, okay. You don't have to do what your wife says. Could Could you Could you Could you listen? Entertain the thought maybe what she's saying is right. Maybe what she's saying is is a correction to what you're saying. Maybe she knows more than you. Could you Could you hold that? >> Right. Maybe she's hurting. And And as as the mashpia you would you don't want her to hurt. That's that's mashpia. Right. The mekabel is Yeah, it does Sometimes this is missed in marriage also. The For a woman to to to exert masculine strength in a marriage does throw things off. You do You know, it's it's important to have a masculine feminine interaction in the marriage. Not in terms of who's in charge. Right. Because who's in charge is not relevant. Cuz we're going to talk this through. We're going to talk this through. We're going to understand each other. And the mekabel is taking the shefa of my husband. My husband Assuming that there's a mashpia on the other side. >> Right. Right. Not a Not a boss who's who's a tyrant. That's not a mekabel. I want to take the shefa which the kindness, the giving. They're partners. It's not one has it up on the other. That's not mashpia and mekabel. I'm going to nurture it. I'm going to nurture what it is that my husband the shefa that my husband wants to give me. I'm going to nurture that. That's the mekabel. I'm going to take it. I'm going to nurture it. Inside of that, we could sit for hours and talk things through. I want to hear what you say. I want to hear what you say. That softness takes away all the questions that you're asking. So, what do we do with finance? Who's in charge of finance? Talk to each other. Like like Yeah, he he's the one He's the one who's out there making money. Okay. But if he's strong enough, Yeah. he's going to be there for her. And she And she'll be there for him to nurture it. Yeah. And a lot of times in-laws get involved because when it comes to finances and problems and this, the in-laws get involved. And then this is a whole new uh a whole new dynamic. Uh You want to bring in-laws in, you're going to have to We're going to have a whole 'nother podcast. >> 'nother podcast, isn't But let me ask you something as far as um personality disorders. In the world of narcissism, there's uh if they can change, if they cannot change, it's all big to do. Right. But let's talk about the victims first. Let's say someone is living with a uh person who has a not a mental illness. Mental illness, you know, can be handled with medication. You can label it. It's fine. This type of personality disorders that I'm talking about, these are regular people walking the streets, executives, uh sometimes very successful and very charming. Right. And they'll make you the crazy one. Right. They'll talk to a therapist and they'll convince the therapist that they are right. Very very dangerous covert narcissism. Now, a narcissist lives on a codependent. That's what gives them highest. That's what gives them life. Because otherwise, you know, the his power, his struggle is not happening. Now, for a codependent who lives with a narcissist and cannot define if this is love or am I a codependent? >> Right. Because in the meantime, the narcissist charms that person. When they they blow hot and cold. You know, they have their ways how to do it. So, she's going through a roller coaster. But doubting herself uh if this is love. I love him. And in the meantime, you love him or you're afraid or you're so you ran with your mind places that you feel that if this if he's not going if he's you know, that you have to rely on this person. Right. So, how can somebody identify if this is love or this is codependence? So, very often you're dealing with personality disorders. >> Yeah. Uh the So, in your question, how could somebody identify if this is love or codependence? or codependence? First of all, you're assuming that there's that it has to be either or. Okay. Very often it could be both. Okay. Um I could love somebody and also be codependent on them. You know, there's there's a part of them that I see that there might be a sweetness in them. There might be something There might be something there that's So the codependent can love the narcissist. A codependent can love the narcissist and actually because It happens a lot. >> It happens a lot. Wow. Um and there might be something there to love. Yeah, there's always there because the narcissists usually are very charming. Narcissists are not not A narcissist doesn't mean a bad person. A narcissist means a person who doesn't see other people. Correct. Yeah. So I could be very good. It's very important. You got to stop doing that. It's very very important. Cuz a lot of people are saying that the narcissist is crazy. And I always say this, he's not crazy. And a crazy person is not a narcissist. No. No. They're smart. They are not crazy. What you're saying even more, they're not bad people. Yeah. They're not bad people. They're not They are just not in touch with reality. They're living their own world. We all know narcissists who are out there doing good. Wow. Right? They're doing They're doing They're doing They're doing a lot of good things. From totally from their own perspective. Totally doing what makes them feel good. Totally Just not seeing another person. So so Right there the spouse might see a very good part of that person. It's not It's It's so not black and white. >> Right. It's so not black and white. >> complex. And and it it could show up in both ways. It could show up as a kindness. It could show up as a giving. But it'll only be kindness and giving as long as it's from their perspective. As soon as I have to see your perspective, it's all the kindness and giving is is gone. It's lost. >> Wow. Um so in terms of it's the codependent in this kind of relationship it's it's not saying is it codependent or is it love. It's being able to split the two apart. What's codependence? What's love? Right. So define codependency. Codependency is that I I am completely responsible for your happiness, for your care, for you for you. If you're upset about something So the codependent walks around on eggshells. >> 100% Totally. Totally. Just taking on taking on whatever his whatever his his issues are. I had a It's a classic codependent situation. A husband and wife where um the husband would do something wrong. Yeah. Let's say she would ask him to take out the garbage and he he didn't. He forgot. He would He would forget something. He would do it. >> Right. And she would get upset. Beginning of the marriage like I asked you to do this for me and and it's you know, the garbage truck came. We missed the garbage already. And he would feel so bad. I'm I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry what I did. I I feel so bad. She jumped in and said, "No, no, no, it's okay. It's okay." She starts apologizing for something that is not at all related. >> So what ended up happening is she would apologize for everything that he did wrong in the marriage. Th- This is This is I didn't see this couple until 10 years later. So there was the dynamic that was set up was he did whatever he wanted. Like the dance that they played was he He basically do whatever he wanted because if he did anything wrong, she apologized. That that's A codependent is I I need I need to make like whatever Almost like she feels viscerally what what's going on inside of him and it becomes her responsibility to make sure he's good. Right. So yeah, a narcissist will set up that relationship with a codependent because a narcissist is expecting everybody to see it from his perspective. So if I'm if I'm upset you need to see what's going on inside of me. The fact that you're also upset because I didn't take out the garbage, that's not even part of the husband. Right. I'm upset now because you are upset that I didn't take out the garbage. So now I'm feeling like a failure of a husband. So now I'm upset. The fact that there was somebody else upset is not is not even part of the picture. It's It's It's not even part of the husband in their mind. So again, you're not talking about a bad person. >> Right. It's just the whole world is viewed through my through my lens. Right. When you understand that, so so the codependent, the person who could be good but also understanding where it comes from. It come narcissism basically most most of the time comes from very very very low self-esteem or almost zero self-esteem. A person who doesn't have a Right. And because they don't have a sense of self, if I don't have a sense of self, then I I need I need to make sure that everything revolves around me because if I see if I see it from your perspective I I I begin to lose myself. If If If I start to see things from you, then where where do I fit in? So they hold desperately onto themselves. Right. The codependent might see that and and feel bad for them and love them. Like never They like This I've seen also like like this He's really I know he's doing this and this and this, but he's really a little teddy bear. Like he's so he's so lost inside. Yeah. So codependence love, there's almost no line that you could slice it. There's There's almost that that it's a Codependence first of all shrink themselves. Yeah. So this is also no way of living. No, so the the real the work in this in a relationship like that is to help the codependent. And I'm not saying this to the exclusion of helping the narcissist. Right? Let's say this this is a marriage here that I want to try to save. Right? And there's a codependent and there's a narcissist. To start the work in a couple's therapy dialogue, probably not going to work because he's not capable of having that conversation. >> Right. Um and that that will usually show up like I said before, the first thing is to make sure if there's a codependent narcissist, don't take anybody's word for it. When you see them interacting with each other, it's like, "Oh yeah, okay, codependent narcissist." Once once once we've confirmed that there was a codependent narcissist the next step is probably not to work in couple's therapy cuz that's not going to work. It's also not to work with the narcissist cuz he's he's fine. He's happy. He's He's okay. The world is working for him. The work is with her. To build her self-esteem because To build her self-esteem. >> who depends is also missing self. They both You see what the problem is over here? Her problem is I mean saying her him both ways, but let's assume she's the codependent. Um she has a lot of work to do in terms of There might be just as much low self-esteem inside of her. She's She's feeding off of him. So you have two people here with low self-esteem. The problem is there's no door in for him. Correct. Because his life is working for him. >> Correct. The door in is for her because he's probably the one falling apart. She's probably the one who slept slept him into therapy. That's that's She's the one who's probably depressed. She's the one who's falling apart. That's That's where your work is. And the work is to help her see Help her separate. He's Is it codependence or love? You love him. Right. But this is destroying you. Right. And those are not contradictions. Those are It's okay because sometimes people come in confused. Like he's such a good guy, but look at this. And It's not confusing. Both both sides are true. Wow. You love him. He has all these good qualities. He's a sweet guy. He's charming. He So he takes you on beautiful vacations. He He smiles at you. He has Okay, that's true. Check. Check. Check. He's also destroying you completely. He's sucking the life out of you. >> Right. And he's making he he His behavior is not allowing you to have a self. He's literally sucking the life out of you and you're going to continue as long as you engage in this relationship with him, you're going to be destroyed. Right. Yeah, but I love him. No, it's not a but. It's no but. Put put a and in between. And you love him. Okay, you love him. >> That's fine. And also he's This This is destructive. And it's not it's destructive for her. It's probably destructive for the whole family. It's It's She's shrinking away. Shrinking. But the Just Just disappearing as a human being. Right. Empowering her. Helping her. And that that's an avoid. That That could be a very big avoid. How does a codependent build their self-esteem? It's It's with a lot of therapy. Right. And the the work I've like every therapy therapy work starts with with self-awareness. It starts with Can you notice what's happening? That's the first step. >> First step is notice what's happening. Notice where it might be coming from. What I read also is that codependency Yeah. um is an addiction. It It It comes to a point that that in where I want to get though is the solution one of the solutions for addictions is the 12-step program. Okay. 12-step program has spirituality in it. So my question to you is Yeah. if you bring in spirituality um especially where you in Right. and where you get the bunch of little men involved and you start knowing who you are, what's your mission, where you coming, where you going with awareness and with the therapy understanding that you are somebody, you are entitled, don't worry to rock the boat, there's a right and there's wrong and you start seeing it coupling that up with spirituality with their bunch of little men with with that I mean that. 100%. I'm I'm all for spirituality. Okay, so And I'm even I'm even pro spirituality and therapy. Like spirituality is is amazing. It's amazing stuff. So what would you want to say about addiction? However in addiction codependency, yeah. The The You can You can You can look at codependence as addiction. But what does that mean that codependence is addiction? What What's an addiction? An addiction means there's something going on inside of me. Something in my nervous system. Something that I'm not holding right now. Something that I'm feeling. Something that I'm experiencing that I that that's that I need something to help me escape this, to help me feel better. >> If I go to spirituality right away, I'm all for spirituality. If we go to spirituality too quickly, Mhm. we run into the concept of spiritual bypass. Like I'm I'm using spirituality the same way I might be using any anything else, any other drug. I'm I was thinking about surrendering, about giving up the control and and um So, what am I giving up? So, there's a self-knowledge here. I'm agreeing with everything No, no, I want to hear. I'm just doing it step by step. >> So, you ask me what the steps are. The first step is is self-awareness. Where's it coming from? Self-awareness includes what's happening to me right now, just in my body. What what what am I experiencing? >> I feel? How do I feel right now? What's showing up for me? When So, with with codependency, let's take another addiction. Let's take alcoholic or drug addict. >> Yeah. What's There's something showing up in their body. Their nervous system is overwhelmed. There's no coping skill for it. There's no There's no coping mechanism. How do I How do I How do I deal with this? Now, what this is could be a lot of different things. Could be coming from childhood, could be coming from There's so much stuff here and I've I've learned how to cope with it. I I I can deal with this. You know how I deal with it? I take some cocaine. Right. I take some alcohol. With And that's that's what That's That's what That's addiction. With the codependent, there's some deep deep deep insecurity. Usually at an attachment level, there's some deep attachment pain. Some Maybe a deep sense of loneliness, a deep sense of of I'm all alone in this world and and nobody's How do I deal with this? How do I deal with this pain? It's It's Look at it as an overwhelmed nervous system. Right. I can deal with this by attaching myself to that person. And I'll take care of that person. There's no self over here. With with with this is coming from, there's no There's There's just There's I'm not looking at myself as a self. There's pain here. And I need to deal with this pain. So, I'm I'm going to I'm I'm going to take care of that person. That that's soothing. Very Very Very soothing. Very very soothing. That awareness that your action, what you're doing, is because of this will make you aware. >> That That's what's going to help me. That That awareness When I say self-awareness, understanding that I'm acting in a way that's really in some ways no different than cocaine. It's just something that I'm using to to soothe. Mhm. And I'm using my attachment to that person to soothe me right now. That's That's why they call it an addiction. Right. Um Understanding that and working with that. Like if I'm going to not be codependent, I have to I have to figure out a way to deal with everything that's going on. Well, how do I deal with all this? Right. And there's a lot of ways in therapy how to deal with all this. Some of it's There's a somatic work that could be done. There's There's There are all different methods, understanding where this is. Spirituality can come in only at the point really where I I got all this. Okay, now I >> the awareness of of yourself, of of what makes you, what's what's your fabric, then you can open up your mind and >> Then you can open up your If we If we If we jump away from self we go If we go to spirituality before we have self-awareness. And when I say self-awareness, I don't just mean up here, I mean down here. >> Right. Right. Self-aware in terms of my my life, self in terms of my thought process, my my my nervous system, then I go from there to spirituality. That's where spirituality can have a massive impact. >> Could there be a little trauma bonding also since the narcissist a master mind manipulator? So, now she's the the spouse is a codependent and filling that void, but a trauma bond >> Yeah, a narcissist codependent, I think we can just assume there's a trauma bond going on there. That's That's That's They're just feeding off each other's trauma. They're both in a position of zero self-esteem, probably from some you know very likely relatable back to some trauma in their childhood. And that's how they're feeding off each other. That's how they're making each other feel feel good. >> Wow. So, the work is really with the with the with the with the codependent. When What What's What happens sometimes and people say narcissists can't be helped. What I've seen happen sometimes, not always, sometimes, when the spouse who's codependent When the when the It's called the victim spouse, whatever it is. It might be codependent, might be just a victim of narcissism. When that spouse becomes The reason why narcissists cannot be helped is cuz their life is working for them. And they have no introspect. Why should they introspect? This is working. This is I'm I I created a a situation where I'm the center of the universe. >> Right. And and that that helps me deal with my low self-esteem and I'm just controlling everything. What happens when that starts to fall apart? What happens when that that that dance doesn't work anymore? Right. Because my spouse is not putting up with it anymore. Then punishment is coming and more mind manipulation is coming. >> So, so the the the initial reaction is to double down on it, become more narcissistic, more And what if that doesn't work? >> Right. That's the point where narcissist might get helped. When their whole way of dealing in the world, the this system of of dealing with my low self-esteem for last 30, 40 years doesn't work anymore. My life is crumbling because I can't control my wife. I can't I can't control I don't have the That falling apart is sometimes what allows a narcissist to get help. That That's That could be the beginning of introspection. That's the narcissist >> Or not. Yeah, but that's the narcissist's rock bottom. When he starts his facade >> When the facade crumbles, it stops working. And when you help the spouse make sure that that doesn't work anymore. Right. That that you know cuz cuz she's standing up to him. She's saying no. And in a nice way. If she gets angry back at him, that's not I'm talking about. In a nice way, no, it's I'm sorry, In a self- in a self-confident way. Right. I see you're hurting right now. So, it that's you know, I you you can take care of that. You're You're a big boy. Look I I I I It's not something I'm going to be able to help you with right now. So sorry. He's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who changed the dance over here? It's not working." Right. >> As long as it's working for him, he's not going to get help. Once it Once it stops working, once it stops working, he might get help. Wow. Right. Right. That is amazing stuff. Let me tell you something. Um this conversation was truly eye-opening. It was beautiful beautiful stuff. Um You remind us how important empathy is. You remind us what marriage is. You remind us what life is all about. Um and what connection is all about. And most of all, you give us a sense of hope. You see light by the end of the tunnel. You see a lot of people and you you you see light by the end of the tunnel. You see the good in people. I want to give you a brocha that the boina shel oilam should give you koiyach to can to to have the strength to sit and and and hold people's hands. Amen. And hold them hold them to get out of their struggles and you should have nachas and gezint Amen. Amen. and only broches. Amen. And I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here cuz it I think talking about shalom bayis Right. is the biggest chos that cuz it Shalom bayis is what holds everything. Like what Life is tough. Right. Life is you know, life is a struggle. Right. And shalom bayis is not the only struggle in life. Life has so many struggles. >> Yeah. What holds What holds that? Correct. Shalom bayis. If I have shalom bayis, I have I have a I have a kaili to hold all the struggles of my life. If I don't have shalom bayis, the struggles of my life become overwhelming. So, thank you for this chos to be able to talk about this. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming in and thank you for your time. Okay. Thank you.