The struggle Podcast EP7 - Confessions of a Jewish Cult buster with Rabbi Shea Hecht -

They are told when they can be with their spouse and when they when they cannot be with their spouse. You're a victim. You did nothing wrong. You can't succeed. You can do well. Because one of the things they they drill in these kids, you can knock without if you walk out of here, you'll never make it. I would walk in to the yeshiva. I'd say, "Okay, guys, we need six." We drove down there, grabbed the kid off the street, brought him to a safe house. Grab illegal. Remember guys, 14 years in federal prison. 14 years. We're talking about kidnappers. 14 years. New York City police. What do you think they did? So, so this is parents. You want to tell me that parents abuse their own children? You can be in a football stadium that's full. Every seat is sold and you can feel alone. Every single one of us can get hopped into a cult. So, in one word, how do you define a cult? [Music] So we have here aush of a guest uh Rab Shia Rabbi Shia is a a cult deprogrammer is correct. Yeah, one one of the terminologies is the programmer. Yeah, deprogram or we we at that time when we wrote the book originally at that time there was a a movie that came out so we made it cult busters right we had a cult buster you wrote a book of Jewish we wrote a book yeah we called it um the Jewish cult buster confessions of confessions of cult at that point also my um my writer chlorine alashami passed away recently But um he was really he chose a name and thought it would be great and he inspired me to write the book. And a few years ago we actually this was it was written in regional 1988 85. We revamped it in in 2013 and we added a few stories which actually one of the stories about my late father. A story that we never knew until after my father passed away of how he saved a kid from a church. A very very beautiful story. And um we wrote the book really with um a number of things in mind but one is really to get people to understand vos cult what is a cult and we did it in story form. So we read about one part of the kind the logic and and tactics of the cult about the mooneyies and then we wrote about uh Harry Kishkas and then we wrote about other divine light mission we wrote about different cases that we actually had and each time highlighting a different aspect of the cult. So if alienation was one problem, we we pointed it out in one thing. If the fact that you not supposed to use your brain and that's what cults teach you, don't use your brain, don't think that was highlighted in in in another story. And each story, the fact that they took away your choice, which is a very very big point. I mean, particularly you're talking about what we're we're here talking about a particular cult right now. understand because the big question is the average member which is all members or all the average members does not they're not given any choice. They're not they don't make a choice not only about where to live and what to do but even with their own children even with their own uh private life they are told when they can uh be with their spouse and when they when they cannot be with their spouse. Now most people listening say this is crazy. No one would go for something like that. No, you first get in and it goes right. So I want to get into that in a minute. You are also a uh radio personality. I remember when I was years ago I remember the name Rabbi Shia on the radio WVD right. But your father was also on this. My father was one of the first Rabonim to take a radio uh program. I believe it was 1953 that he started on WEVD and um he had a program first on Fridays then Fridays and Sundays and then when they sold and I remember my grandmother listening to WVD and Rabbi He came on 15 it was a 15minute program on Friday uh first in the in the morning then the afternoon um and then when there did the radio programs on uh did his fabans on radio programs. So my father used to translate between the sikas and yeah look my father was really uh I still ride his coattails. Let me just say it very simple. He's gone for 35 years and I still walk into people and say uh hello who are you? Oh I'm Rabbi JJ Hson and and that it still opens doors for me. It still gets me places. And much of what I learned um well he had an organization called anti-shmad. That's one of the reasons how one of the ways I got into working with cults. Oh, so it comes back from that. Yeah. Yeah. So he wasn't really he didn't teach me the cult buster techniques as much as he was there behind me. He took the full says there a minor platus I got broad shoulders my son because by definition a um a cultbuster or a deprogrammer is done involuntary that means as follows Mr. and Mrs. Schwarz comes to us and says, "Our son Mushula is involved in the cult. Uh, our daughter Khan is involved in the cult. We can't reach them." And what we did is we drove down there, grabbed the kid off the street, brought him to a safe house. These are all things that in different stories we show. So again, in one we focus on the cop, what we call How do you do that? You have a bunch of guys like how many guys go out and listen. When I started, I was still a ber and and then I was half in k and I lived and I was a young guy. So yeah, I would walk in to the yeshiva. I'd say, "Okay, guys, we need six to to do a legal uh it wasn't legal." But uh but we did it. First of all, people like did you do that now? Never. Everybody has cameras out of in front of their houses. It's a different world. But then in 1980, let's say that's like like the middle of my work. 1980s, you grab the kid. Okay. So now the church that the kid was involved in went to the police. New York City police. What do you think they did? Uh how old is the kid? Uh 22. Oh, he's old enough to make his own decisions. Gay. You know, I'm not we're not helping you. So we didn't fear at all. I shouldn't say at all because there were ways that we certain times that we did fear we didn't fear the police and we felt even if they would would come around they would probably be on our side anyways so yes but it was illegal and I had a friend of one of the people on our team Larry Michelle you know he would say remember guys 14 years in federal prison 14 years we're talking about kidnap is 14 is and where where was the safe house? There's a safe house you talk about that supposed to take these kids. In my in my second book I write about some of the truths of the first book because in my first book I said I don't tell them where the safe house is. Larry Michelle Sue and Larry Michelle were the first people who said to us we will give you our home for that safe house. Remember the the people can run away the house. You can't you can't do that. And and if you were had a kid that went back to the cult, you you had a real problem that one time. I mean, it happened. Unfortunately, you know, like I tell people, I wrote one book about my successes, maybe two about the failures. No, we we had a very at the end in particular, we had a very very high success rate. We did very very well in what we were doing. We had our uh our team down pat uh when the Gashmi is part the take apart we we we so in one word how do you define a cult? In one word I cannot define a cult. I would call it a cult. Yeah. Uh but a cult is a group of people that usually has a leader. Doesn't always have to have a leader. group of people that basically take away your number one gift that God has given to you which is called free choice. Takes away your individuality and the cult leader in most cases puts themselves above the letter of the law. So if certain behaviors are immoral outside in the world but you know what in this ashram in this place it can be done or with the leader of the cult you're allowed to do those sins not what I want and unfortunately hellbrand followed those principles those ideas to the tea and you probably remember people's temple that 99 people killed themselves he followed very much people's temples. There is a video out there that I'd like to tell your audience to take a look at. It's called it's a YouTube 10 reasons why Leifahar is a cult. 10 reasons why Leahar is a cult and they juxtapose Leahar and People's Temple and it's frightening frightening to see how similar it is. Yeah. So my question to you is what people what kind of people what are they missing that they're drawn to a cult? I love your question. Um I'm not sure you're going to appreciate my answer. This is an open every single one of us can get into a cult. Every single one of us. Elaborate on that like okay I'm going to elaborate. I'm going to say as follow was the void that there is a cult out there today that's called a noi okay Jewish guys who are running a cult that cult was called you know before that it was called at a certain point called the call of the chauffeur okay where they located the there there's two fellas who I don't want to give him the honor I'm not going to answer that okay call of the chauffeur uh was a cult that went into the community of Crown Heights and because of that Quran Heights connected to the entire United States and the whole world they captain in hundreds of people to go to their seminar and their seminar followed the play bill of a cult. Uh I'm not saying they made the cult members. So the question is like this. What does a young person who has and and mada or anidis and accomplishments and has a family. What do they say? Why would I go to some stupid seminar uh that is cultish and shlept me in? I think there's two two things. First of all, the salesmanship. What cults do is they lie of who they are. they uh believe that the uh ends will justify the means and therefore they'll come to you and lie to you and say hey you know what why don't you go to this weekend it's you know it will help your your your family life it'll help you be a better father it helped me be a better husband and yeah hey why not everybody's looking for improvement and then the cult will sell other products for instance Scientology which is today one of the most successful cults Scientology has a test that they would they used to stand on street corners and stop a person say excuse me sir can I just can you just give you this little questionnaire and no matter how you answered those questions the result was oh let me see question you know what you're not very happy you know what there's a course that they're giving just actually a few blocks from here that you can take a course to increase your happiness who doesn't want to be happy but the the joke is no matter how you would have answered your question, they would have got the same exact thing. A fellow many years ago told me, he said, "I went I did I took the same test six times, made sure to answer every question differently." The the line that they said to me was the exact same line. You know, sir, it really looks based on here that you lack happiness or whatever they said it. And you know what? I can prove my happiness. Why wouldn't I take a course? Right? So, what you're telling me is that a person whose foundation of Yiddish, who is really not solid to understand um where he comes from, what his mission is in this world, and he didn't get a solid solid upbringing uh Yiddisha upbringing, he is uh very susceptible to a cult. I'm saying even if the person is spiritual and even if the person had a solid upbringing they they could be susceptible they're still missing something because the the the cult is promising them this warm and fuzzy peaceful uh I don't have to think and I have to make decisions and it's it's a beautiful concept if you tell this to a person who is down on his luck I think there's even a step before that. It's not that I'm that I'm uh lacking necessarily. Remember cults, they have their people out there uh the salespeople and they therefore many times it's just simply hey mulah come with me to for a weekend. It's not going to hurt you. It's going to change your life. It's going to make improvements. And then we brainwash you during that weekend. Right now again, if your asked you and invited you to something like that, if your brother invited you like that, would you show up for a two-day weekend? You give it a shot. Okay. I may not want to give up shabas, which is one of big complaints I have against these guys. What are you doing on a chabas? But if you a friend of mine came to me and said, "Listen, let's go even at my age, you know, let's go for a two-day hiking trip, you know, and and uh I wasn't fighting cults. Maybe I would Yeah. You would give what we call a reasonable amount of time to something that could perhaps enhance your life. Once you get in, they are playing with your brain. They're playing with your heart. They're playing with your thought process. They're playing with your system. and we get you capped in right and sometimes you see who else is there some there's a variety of different shtik what different cults do and many of the shiktick what they do is exactly the same no matter what cult you have the same exact right it's a pattern everywhere doesn't matter which religion we know that belonging is a very big part of the human of the human nature we love to belong belong. We need to belong. Now, what do you say to a person could be in a community, but he feels isolated. He feels alone and he's desperate and he's sitting over there. He could sit in the cahila with thousands of yingala, thousands of people and he's uh lonely in the big city. You are so right first of all about the fact of belonging. Okay. Um when we think of teenagers or even younger 10 year olds of peer pressure correct and how what that plays schools this is a is something that is a huge topic itself right um and it's true you when I a younger man comes into my office I'll usually say to him what are you doing on Friday night right you know because Friday night is a is is a time that they'll they'll skip their their their skipp or I'll say to them who is your okay when is the last time you spoke to your do you have a relationship or do you live in a you know in a community and and there's a big or maybe at that's very very big and you have zero connection you're right the human being can be as we the the the example is used you can be in a football stadium that's full every seat is sold and you can feel alone you can alone. Um, that has to do with fulfillment. Yes, it does have to do with knowledge. It has to do with your relationships outside these things. I have a today one of my passions in life is shalom bias. And one of the things I talk about in shalom bias is that there are basically seven different relationships which by the way correspond to mid but seven different relationships that we have in our life. And you know what? One has an effect on something on on another. If you had a crazy mother, that's going to affect you how you treat your wife. And if you're having a a rough time with your wife, that's going to affect how you treat your children. One relationship is tied in to another relationship. And all our relationships are are right. So we're all a work in progress. So what should a person do if let's say he's going through a hard time going through a hard time in life? Like you said, he has some baggage that he came with. Everybody has baggage. But here we're talking about cults. We're talking about people who are needy. We're talking about people who want to uh they're looking for something. They're yearning for something. We're trying to prevent. What I want to do is I want to understand how to kill this cult business when it's still a baby. Yeah. Um, one of my things at my organization that I work for, we have a drugrevention program. And one of the pointers I point out when we got my father started the program 40 years ago and um that time he was also attacked is you're making up uh fake uh illnesses within the Orthodox community. Nobody believed it. Right. Today unfortunately we we know so many years have gone by and so many things. My father was a visionary in many many different things. But they said, "You know what? You were we're never going to solve the drug problem by from the sellers because they're making money." Of course, we need to basically diminish demand. Okay. And like you say, um it's not about the people have to be more fulfilled. And the one first thing I ask you again, do you have it of do you have a shittita? Do you have a plan? Do you have a goal? In you have to do it just like we every once in a while we sit down with our accountant to figure out our business strategy. You need to sit down with youristic accountant with your to work out your spiritual uh that brings me to another question. What if someone doesn't have a roof? What if someone lost all trust in in wherever in his system and he's lost? It's a complete loss. You have to understand we're talking about cults. We're talking about people who are lost in this world. They don't trust. There's so many issues. I I just want to like go back again. Sometimes the cults will sometime people are searching and sometimes the cult will find you, right? And particularly even in this in this cult of of liftar I've spoken to people who they were more or less satisfied where they were okay and they were invited for a shabas or for a weekend and you know what there was something that they saw listen even within this crazy cult and they're the worst worst cult that I've seen the cruelty the the theory they have unfortunately They're dirty. Their hands are dirty in all aspects. Unbelievable. Can you elaborate a little bit on this? Because what a you would say they were worshiping this human being. Yes, absolutely. They he was God. Not only did they think he was God, they were treating him like God. What that what that that means is as follows. within their system of their cult they don't study halu will tell you what to do and everything is fine okay listen how many you go to and ma yeshiva everybody we there's there's time every single day that we study now again this yeshiva will have a longer this but al is a it is a cornerstone to our religion to know how to serve God hil Shabas is very very important and by the way you know we never get tired of hilushabas and today particularly with now some of the new technologies and some also some of the new books that are written out on chabas and speak about all these uh technologies and beautiful shilas and questions you know it you can enjoy studying shabas right but when you are in some group that is controlled by one man and that person more or less will tell you is across the board. Yeah, we have a problem. So you call this audipping part is the zuda part worshipping part of the of the man that goes beyond even the religious aspects or the religion that you are serving. Um my daughter met one of uh the ex members of the cult and she says you know what uh the cult was is very bad and I ran away from the cult and our family left the cult but man Hellbrand he was in fact a very very I don't want to use the words that she used and that's not true. Uh there are many many testimonies of victims. A man was a predator and and and uh he was a bad guy. uh I believe you can say on him because he he has destroyed the the lives or has shown that and really has no value in the behaviors in his animalistic behaviors that he has performed and uh and I would say forced but it wasn't so much wasn't forced by by hands manipulated manipul ipulated very good word uh manipulated his subjects his victims to perform right now can you explain us the difference of worshiping a human being to respecting a human being like where's the fine line where because you see this you see this by rash you see this by rabbis you see this by right where's worshiing differentiate from respect like the first thing I'm going to I'm going to tell you is when you lose your own compass you know one of the areas and I write about this in my in my second book um we have been I say we now rabbis raonim and today's generation have been accused by kids who are unfortunately abused in different ways that the raim didn't do enough or raim didn't do anything or we came to people and he didn't respond to us. Uh I say it's different. There was cases that I and I and I write about it in in my book um called um whatever it takes. And and I do point because I and one of the reason I write about this because I wanted to know listen yeah 30 40 years ago I was out there fighting for these um victims um and understand that there is something called a victim and predators usually they prime their victims. Yes. Uh they and they groom their victim and it's it's very very bad. It takes time you know that's that is unfortunately part of the sickness. You know, this isn't wasn't uh a desire, a ty that you had. No, this was a sickness. This was premeditated. This was something that you was thought out, right? And and you groomed your victim. The of name was just this what you do to to to draw it out. Um yes. Are some people more prone to be a victim than others? Studies show that yes. But uh good predators as I say they set us their their their plan on a victim and and they go for it. I don't know if I answered your question. I think I divert a little bit. You divert a little bit but my question was worshiing and respect. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um and you're right to does desire respect. And I started saying to you when you lose your own compass, you know, I started saying but so a child who's a who's abused and you say to them, you know, you did things that maybe are pleasurable, but somehow you knew there was something wrong, right? Your inner your compass, you knew there was like they some when we talked with kids when it's your intuition, your intuition, right? Right. When your inner compass is off or you're going against that, that's when the difference between respect and and worshiping where you feel that something is wrong. When you or when you throw your compass out in the garbage, you say, "Oh, I'm not going to follow my my my kishka. I I know something's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyways." That makes sense. And that is very very important. That makes sense. And it's back to Gile Roy. What's the sh between sexual molestation with these cults? It always ends up and this is in all cults and and this is this happened in Left Tour too, correct? Yes, 100%. Um, well, I write I write in I write in the preface of my book, a cult leader is out for one of three things. Money, power, sex, and and Yeah. And um and sometimes all three, right? But um a good cult there will be um taking advantage um of sometime. These are men, women and children. Yeah. Yeah. And and and it goes to an extreme to an extent that is there's beyond beyond imagination imagination. Right. Right. Because some of the stories that are now coming forward even about but this is this is about people who uh who are leaving the cult now or Yeah. leaving or left. Look, if you belong in a cult, and being that we're talking about this topic, I was I was on the streets the other day uh in Guatemala uh where they they left our people have camped outside and I went over I figured started talking guy and he says, "What's your name?" I said, "Yeshua." He says, "Oh, Yeshua H." I said, "Yeah." I said, "By the way, how did how'd you know?" He said, "I watched your your video." I said, "Oh, good. keep watching because I say a lot of smart things and uh and I say how bad you people are which is 100% correct you know so I'm sure they're going to watch watch the this alone um as well uh knowing that we're talking about them in the topic um the the testimonies that we have heard over the last few weeks when I say we that were one that set up to listen to the victims. It was it is beyond. You would not think that people who call themselves Jewish and by the way I question about the Judais Judaism and I'll tell you story in a moment. Um I question uh about that but the Jews to behave this way simply you know it's it's not the common place um even in the areas of schmutz. Yeah it's minding. So, I'm in Guatemala and I'm speaking to uh an authority uh someone in um the Justice Department um about say justice. I use that word very loosely, but I'm just saying it not. So, this guy is an investigator, works with the government. So, he asks me about like, you know, but aren't they part of your club? I said, "No, they're not. They're not. As far as I'm concerned, I don't call them Jews. I call them terrorists. And terrorists, reason why I call terrorists, because if the children that I've met, I saw terror in their eyes. Terrorists put terror into the their subjects. So that's terrorists. But having said that, I said, "Listen, why don't you ask them if they're part of my club? Why don't you ask them? Why don't you ask them if they consider me to be a proper Jewish person?" They're going to say, "No, you're right. So, and I'm going to we will accept what they say. They don't think I belong to the same club as do as they do. And I don't believe they belong to the same club that I do. You talking about the the leara people the leaders or you're talking about the victims because the about the people inside is like you were you right you were kidnapping at one point. Right. These are innocent people. I'm talking now about the cult within itself. Looking at the leaders, I guess it's it's the leaders. Yes. But they don't consider they do not cons they will not eat in your house anything. Okay. Because you're not kosher. Timing says when a person is proper from you come to his house, you don't have to ask him questions. Is cautious every everything is fine. But you know they general unfortunately don't feed their children healthy diets. They believe all meat is not is all chicken is tra all fish is what what is the the the fascination they have with food also we know food makes the mood so they will feed the certain foods for these people it's also a power trip or is it they they play with their minds where does food come into first of all diet has a direct effect on mood correct and behavior Uh we know that cults give these type of diets high. It's all taught out the two. It's I I think so. I think so. I think Schlomber was smart enough to figure all these things out. He was the type of person who traveled many many places. He had a great great experience. He was a very pasatic and he was a genius. But go back again. If there are people today who left the cult but still think he's a holy person, they are they missed the point. They missed the point. They missed the point because I think if a if a if if they worship him, if if in the cult the leader um the leader is being woripped, then he knows he has everybody in the back. So now the rest is history. As soon as he is worshiped, then he knows he can do whatever he wants. Correct. Correct. And he did take advantage of we believe both of of men and women. And what about is there mish? Because I I saw a video of this this kid who uh mendy uh what's his name? Meny Levy. Meny Levy. He says that his father was killed literally killed and there's they found a child over there. So do do they look at this like we have a cemetery just like everybody else's cemetery you know in their own world. If you want to put yourself into their own world, they're living in Guatemala. I told somebody I sold somebody in Guatemala. If I have my wish, I drake up that entire area where these people are because I believe that we are going to find things that we would have never imagined. I'm just like that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you see you see literally no Yeah. Yeah. 100 100% 100% and it's something and it is and it is something very very disturbing hurtful very disturbing and the fact is you know 25 years ago they came to me victims of this cult that I should help and I feel I didn't do enough then I also didn't have enough knowledge that I like I have today we had a little different uh schlikas in this cult business because you were fighting who knows you were fighting goa cults This is something uh but I I did have a a few Jewish cults. I recently had a yeshiva cult uh in Long on Long Island that we were very very successful and totally bashm it's all over and it's it's history. Um, so how would a person know if he is in a cult or if he is attracted to this cult or he wants to he sees a good place and a place of and emotions you know they they they play to people's emotions I tell me if I'm correct the way I look at it is if that person I mean I they all use of course without does nothing right you see the calls everything is we do this for but this is it if I have to worship the leader. If if if that leader lets you be yourself as far as you know that is that where a person can can see that this is not a cult and it is a cult because you know what's what's interesting is if you go back to the balto and you brought to the world what you see today is not what he uh that's not what he had in mind completely. He came and he introduced and he introduced also he was fighting this loneliness and people who never didn't feel and he wanted to bring some warmth into into Yidden. Now it turned into these these courts you know these courts and stuff like that and where where do you know where you're standing? Everybody has different some people you know are fighting two people are fight they wouldn't they wouldn't with with each other they wouldn't eat by each other so what it's confusing what is going on someone told me today the going to use a terminology the intermarriage between and nonidim and between different types of today is very prevalent yeah um look it's true that I I I I have to be very very careful because I do believe that the balv's plan and teachings are here and strong but right the question is have they been overlapped or perverted by organizations and stuff you know what I mean because what happens is that it's it's it's it's very interesting that um there is also punishment There's also and there's also rules and control and there's also in businesses there is such a thing as a dress code. You have to come dressed with a suit and there's in in so where would a person how do you differentiate? I mean they take it to the next level. They don't take it to this level. You know I believe I believe most people know you know you don't Yeah. Yeah. Go back again to your it's not so complicated is what you're saying. It's there's an internal compass. And by the way, when you think about that, that internal compass is a lot more powerful. Yeah. And it never lies. It never lies. It never lies. And and most times, you know what? You have to follow your own course, your own instinct. And when we don't And when we don't, that's when so many people said, "I made a mistake, but I I remember I was helping somebody in a legal matter." Unfortunately, they did a did a big mistake. unfortunately ended up sitting in jail. But he said like the last minute I you know I knew it was wrong. You know he had he said but it was like almost too late. I couldn't pull back but the fact is he could have pulled and the interesting part is when it comes to the Reb I was just we last week I was talking to to Sim Jacobson about it. The Reb created leaders. Yes. He never said people come to me for Yontiff. come to me for he sent everybody away. The way he was teaching is by example. He didn't control. He had zero control. He says you don't want you learn by yourself. I'll teach you what to do. Well, the told that the said that so he created something not to hold people in a in a uh in a in a box. He was actually sending everybody out. Created everybody to be their own and teach others. So overat I see clear I can see that a person you know he created a lot of and rabbis and and stuff like that but there are places who don't want that there are places who who have rules and regulations and you do it the way we we do it and if you can't you can leave but it's very hard to leave same thing is in the cult same thing is happening by hellbr if you ask you go over to a person who was there for let's say 14 years where is he going to leave he doesn't want to leave he No, no, no. So, you you you actually make a also something a very very big point. A young man or young lady and now I'm talking to some of the cult members themselves. They get involved in a cult. Yeah. And they're fighting against their parents or they were born into the cult. What a separate story. They're fighting against their parents five years, 10 years. Now all of a sudden it's very very difficult to wake up say you know what mommy you were right I made a big mistake daty you know what you were right I made a big mistake that is happens to be a big problem many of we seeing it now with particularly the women who are leaving the cult now they I knew was wrong I didn't have the strength of it or didn't have the strength to be able to face my family and say you know what all these years you were right and I was wrong And how could have I given up or given or wasted so much of God's precious time? Right. Right. And what is your advice for a person who wants to be fulfilled and balanced and feel like belonging and they shouldn't have these kind of problems. He shouldn't even cross his mind to go and look for something uh outside. First of all, I think we have to inject ourselves with a little bit more spiritual ah spirituality you know today and on one hand it's it's it's beautiful you know the the kadushim you know with the with the first of all I'm against these things but how much whiskey they bring but it's it's not so much they have to buy the $80 bottle of vodka the $40 bottle arendished or the $20 bottle arendish. You know, when we think that we have to buy these things and and do these things beyond our means, we're really moving away from the from the core. So I say is like this. Um be be in touch with a part be fulfilled with part but also appreciate what you have and yeah and simply be in touch or let it absorb the situation. Have a relationship with God and have a a level of of spirituality. Um, not to say that we we're immune to everything, but like every good immunization that it will protect you and then, you know, you got to move your you got to use your head. Right. Right. You got to be uh you got to be alert. Right. Right. So the way I understand it is that they're looking for something, these victims, and they fall into this cult and they give him this warm feeling, the feeling of belonging that we were talking before. And then they find themselves being so lonely, lonelier than before because part of the cult is isolate these people. They isolate them from their family. They isolate them from each other. The way I understand it is that they wanted the wives to tell on their husbands and the husbands on the kids and the kids on the father. Weird. It's it's it's and that that was probably not their original plan. I think this is more of the pleasant the present on listen they had a a Guatemalan g that his job was to be the snitch and Yeah. And because there were times he didn't have what to snitch, he would almost fabricate things and keep things going, make it exciting that he's that his job is important, I guess. Or in in cults, is there punishment like there's there's like is it physical or emotional? What kind of uh craziness can you share with us that what's going on over there? Well, well, the Malcus is a reality that they gave Malcus. Um, they say, well, men gave to men and women gave to women, you know, but but I think I think it was more the cruelty of parents to children or parent or I should say the adults in the group to the children in the group. So, so this is parents. You want to tell me that parents abuse their own children as well physically? Of course. I mean they they beat them and listen because they were taught that this is or whatever they were taught and they're also getting mala. So it's for them again in the in the in the video 10 reasons why lear is a cult. Yeah. It points out that Mhammed asked by he said, you know, how much patch am I supposed to be giving this kid? You know, why am I giving the petals? Okay, they point out that you're supposed to really hurt the kid and and and it's it's not only a question of fear. I think there was a certain element a certain ingredient of what I say plain simple cruelty comes like it becomes like a much crazy stuff. So what is your message to someone who is in a cult right now who wants to get out? First thing is you can get out. You yourself can get out. and follow your intuition and get out. The second thing is remember one thing and if you remember this one word and I love your question by the way if you get remember this one word you're a victim you did nothing wrong you can't succeed you can do well because one of the things they speak they drill in these kids you're not without if you walk out of here you'll never make it in in no you can make it you are special by God you have special talents you can be successful you will be successful and Remember all you were was a victim. A guy took advantage of you but you are a victim and you can overcome this with great success and grow from the experiences that you had. Yeah, that's very powerful. So what can we do as a community to help out? The first thing is when people come forward and say that the guy is a manuval or say that the guy is is a co-leader, stop supporting him. Stop supporting him. Don't give him money. Don't give him. I don't care how smart. There was a time that people sent a lot of money and people were supporting this and there still people from my understanding I just came from somewhere that they told me that he heard that his his ro collected money for come on guys. Unbelievable. It's unbelievable stuff. What is the most rewarding thing in this work that you're doing? The most rewarding thing is that you can see when people come and they can use their talent within and really come back to themselves, bring families back together. Um, people used to ask me, you know, go into the kira work. I said, no, this is even easier because these are people who are committed to my nephesh, committed to it's just that they're on the wrong train. The wrong Yeah. They're on the wrong path. They got back on the tra path and they could use that same energy to keep going. I have a final question for you. Who is your role model? Um, it's that's a very easy answer for me today. You walk into my office, you will see a picture of my father standing right next to you know is talking to my father and there's a those are my two heroes. the labba and uh my late father Rabbi Yakab who trained me um wasn't always easy by the way you know being being the child of a somewhat of a personality and a little bit of an overachiever. Both my both my parents were overachievers and many of my brothers and sisters are simply overachievers. I struggled in yeshiva as it happens. Um I struggled when many things of those struggles were my the best part of my life. I've learned things that I have later able to help. Many times when I help a person they say okay when will I know my chva is is accepted by Hashem. I said that person is going to come. They're you're going to have a situation where someone's going to come along and have a very similar problem that you have and you'll say you know what that's why I had to go through my challenges then so I can help you and then you'll know that that's why Hashem sent you that because he has accepted your chuva for you to move forward. So you feel that this is your pretty much so plus a lot of things. I wear I do wear many hats. You wear many hats. any hats and and I learned from my father I was just telling to somebody the other day you know the pendulum is so wide we can we can accomplish so much and also we can destroy a lot we can accomplish a lot and most of us can accomplish a lot more than we're accomplishing right we got to push ourselves but we also have to be proud of ourselves you know I say like this and we'll we can end with this for you have to What does Hashem want us to do to love somebody else? What does have you have to love yourself in order to love somebody else? I working in bias. I see people it's very very hard to love somebody else if you don't love yourself. Love yourself. Have self pride. Have Jewish pride. Not ga. That's a separate thing completely. You don't want to be haughty. But you want to feel strong and have pride with confidence and confidence and use it in a way that you can help others and do for others and impart it on others. Beautiful. Beautiful. And I think if with the with the with good self-confidence, the cults also would not uh would not be so not exist. They wouldn't exist. Thank you so much for coming in help. Amen. Amen. To be able to continue and to do the bringing back to Amen. Beautiful tremendous and you have a great great platform and and use this platform. That's what we're trying to do to help people. That's media particularly today. The electronic media is so big and we can touch so many people. Correct. May Hashem help that the struggle live and learn. Continue to do good work, inspire people, uplift people, uplift people. That's what everyone said. His job was to uplift people. And uh and you know, as we say, keep doing what you're doing. Thank you so much. President Clinton was asked, "Why'd you do it? Why do you take advantage of it?" He says because I I because I was able to. Yeah. I had the opportunity. No, not but but he what he meant was she came to him and once said, you know, I I she was 20 years old and she was infatuated, you know, and he was a good-look guy and and he said, "Look, you can do anything you want to me." And he said, "Okay." He thought I was little to do it and and um and what the same thing goes. So you have haveim that basically say okay Rebby you can do anything you want to me. Oh really? You know okay the the the reb comes in. Rebby you can do whatever you want to me. Oh, really?