The struggle Podcast EP6 Rabbi Aron Spivak - Surrendering, Belonging, Addictions and Trauma

No matter how stubborn you are, reality is more stubborn. You can't move it. And his wife says, "If you come home drunk one more time, I'm divorcing you." The number one priority is to make sure the children are safe. Accept the fact that by choosing to protect my kids, I chose to be the topic of gossip. This is called a struggle. This This is the real struggle. When when when when a father who berated you your whole life, right? Who was physically violent to you, who sexually molested you. Has a parent a right to use a capitalist vehicle as a mental car? Okay. Welcome to the struggle. We have here a special guest, uh Rabbi Aaron Speiwak. Rabbi Aaron Speiwak is a rabbi here in Wesley Hills, New York. Um and Kehilat Bais Yehudah. Am I correct? You're correct, yeah. Kehilat Bais Yehudah, right? People know it as KBY. KBY, right. KBY, very famous here in Wesley Hills, New York. Very successful Kehilah. And uh we will explore today uh we're going to talk about life. We're going to talk about struggles. We're going to talk about everything. Rabbi Speiwak wears three hats uh in his life. One is he is a rabbi. And the second one is he is a therapist helping people in the field of mental health. And the third one he is a human being. And we would like to uh explore and see his hear his view on all three of them. So, let's jump right into it. Hey, well, first of all, I just want to say thank you for for me. And I look forward to our discussion today. And I'm sure that we'll get a lot from it and I hope that the viewers and listeners gain from what we have to say as well. We here at the struggle. Yeah. Right. Going through my own struggle, it was a very lonely and isolated affair. And you know, I wish I could say that there was that one teacher, that one rebbe who guided and understood. pat you on the back and say, you know, I have your back. I'll say Right. Right. That was But there was no communication and that's what I I feel also that that's missing in the schools. I mean, bigger schools are like factories now. But there is there's so much problems that children go through alone or whatever the problems is. Every Every child has their own struggles. And nobody even notices it. And they just grow up by themselves and maybe if you're lucky in Yeshiva in later years and some people I spoke to and they didn't have any Yeshiva either. There's there's no Nobody that went through in 20 years of their lives had some sort of impact or connection to them. Yeah, you know, you read online all these inspirational stories about that one teacher Yeah. who found that one kid that all the other teachers dismissed and saw something and guided and understood. They just needed it. And and you know, if there are kids who had that experience, you know, they're very fortunate. Yeah. Uh but not all of us do. Right. You moved on to What What was the next step? I went for my degree in mental health counseling. That was you know, that was the first step. Um and then I did my you know, my early work under supervision, my clinical hours to get my license. So, I got my my degree um and I I you know, really devoted myself to my therapy practice. And I made a decision to practice something called surrender. and acceptance. It's a very powerful thing about surrendering. Um What is Tell me a little bit more about what you're saying about surrender. And this is probably in your life. Uh you know, it has to do with the men and betoken and You you surrender, you become at peace. And there's no chasing. It's more of attracting versus chasing, correct? Yeah. Explain me a little bit more what got you into the surrender. Sure. So, this is something I wish I could say I do in all areas of my life. I try. But, there is this psychological concept called acceptance, which is identified as the final stage of grief. It's also a very powerful tool in many different psychotherapies. And the concept of acceptance, ironically, means you let go of the struggle. The struggle with reality. Okay. And I guess the best way that it's articulated is something called the Serenity Prayer, which originates from the 12-step program, but it really is relevant to any human being who walks this earth. Mhm. And the Serenity Prayer goes like this, "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change and the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference." Mhm. Wow. Yeah, it's like the like powerful stuff. Very, very powerful. And it has has so many ramifications. And it that what that means, in essence, is that if there's something in your life that you don't like and is unacceptable, but it's a reality that's not going to change. Can't change it. You need to come to peace with it. Make space for it. Allow it in. And accept it. And accept that this is the reality and accept the pain that comes with it. Right? That's a big piece that can't be left out. Accept the truth of it and accept the pain and the struggle that comes with it. Instead of being in denial, trying to insist that it's not true. Or fight it. What? Or fight it. it. Right. You know what I like to say, you know, with my kids when they you know, kids have a hard time, you know, sometimes accepting reality. You know, they haven't gotten that training yet. And they insist that if they do it they're going to do it. It's going to be however they want. Right? It's raining today. No, it's not raining. It's not fair. It can't rain. Right? I was supposed to go to my friend's house and we were going to go swimming and right. And no, no, it's not raining. We're not canceling. So, the final I'd like to say is no matter how stubborn you are, reality is more stubborn. Right. You can't move it. Right. It is what it is. Right. So, acceptance means coming to peace with the immutability of reality. Right. Right. So, that's acceptance. But how do you how do you surrender if people most of the things that are in the way of people to surrender and to accept is our environment. It's the neighbors and people and called you know, where you come from and it's it's not so black and white. So, surrender. Surrender to the bonnie shalom, surrender to reality. You have to know yourself so well and be so independent and confident and knowing that like you you're mentioning the word alone before, you know, not feeling alone and lonely and that's when you can that that that's when you can surrender. But how how how do you do that? Ah, okay. So, the next step we discussed acceptance. Surrender is a cousin of acceptance. The best articulation of the concept comes from a an amazing book called The Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer. Michael Singer is a Jewish not affiliated but a Jewish man he lives in Florida and he wrote some unbelievable legendary books. All right, he wrote The Untethered Soul and which is his philosophy and he wrote The Untethered Mind which is his autobiography. And he talks about a philosophy in life that he adopted which is to surrender to the universe. Whatever opportunities come his way whatever the universe brings to him he's going to surrender to it. He's not going to struggle against the things that come his way. What comes his way he so Now, for me substituting the word Hashem for the universe is very easy because they're really the same concept. This is a discussion for another time but the the universe you know, what is it? Right? Hashem Echad Ein Od Milvado, right? So, to adopt a mindset that whatever direction the universe is pulling me, whatever opportunities I'm being pulled into is something Hakadosh Baruch Hu is putting at my door. But, right? And I'll have you even struggles and difficulties, not only opportunities. Right. You know, the struggle as an opportunity to to grow, right? Because we do we are given the chance to rise above struggle. Yeah. I don't mean surrender to the struggle and be defeated. Right. Right? But use it as a stepping stone. Or using it use it and recognize it that this is the part this is part of your story. Something I like to tell tell clients, you know, a way to get into the concept of acceptance is for the rest of your life your story will include that chapter. Right? You know, if my client is, you know, 25, I'm going to tell them the first 25 chapters of your story are written. It's done. And in the end, right? There There will be no un-writing of those chapters. Right. Right? Accept that. Right? Whatever Whatever pain, suffering, or parts of your life that you that you don't like, learn from it. that you want to run away and hide from, Right. it's part of your story. Right? Embrace it. So, surrender is recognizing that you're not randomly floating through chaos. Right. Right? You're part of something big. And whatever is coming to your door, right? It's an opportunity. Yeah, it's an opportunity that that that Hakadosh Baruch Hu is presenting to you. Right? The Mishna says, "Batil retzoncha mipnei retzono." retzono. Right? Nullify your own What does that mean, nullify your will? Right? It means blend into the bigger world that you're part of. Let yourself be part of that network of godliness. Right. And then surrender is the natural outcome of that. Right. Beautiful. Now, let's go back to rabbonus that you came into to KBY. What is a rabbi's I mean, first of all, let's let's There's a few levels of rabbis. There is a chasidish rabbis. There is people rabbis, big kehilla rabbis, and then there are rabbis that have a board. And the rabbi's on payroll. And the rabbi either rabbi needs to answer to the board. But when it comes to halacha, what is the is the rabbi doesn't need to answer? You are Which position are you a rabbi? So, in my shul, I'm hired by the board. And I serve as at the discretion of the board. And I think it's a fantastic model. Okay. You know, what is the job of a rabbi? Yeah. That's the like the question, how long is a piece of string? Right? Right. Depends on the piece of string. There is the concept of the rabbi as the authority figure. Okay? There are communities and shuls that that's what they structure. And in such communities the concept of a rabbi that has to answer to a board is is foreign. Right? Right. It's It's like a It's a lack of kavod Torah or whatnot. Yeah, but the Hasidic rabbis, right? Yeah, or even even in Yeshiva circles They're completely in charge. I mean, the shtiebel rabbis, they own the the actual piece of real estate, too. Right. They own the land, they own the shul. They invite people to come daven in their house. They invite people to come and they're totally in charge. Sure. So, you as having your position and I'm sure being a mental health counselor helps also because this is not an easy task to communicate with the congregants, with the Hasidim, with the with the kehilla. It's a art to keep them together and have open communication. So, how do you What's your experience of and and and what's your ambition? What do you want to accomplish by being a rabbi? That's a great question. So, my mission statement as a rabbi is this. I want to be a resource for people who want to live their best life through Torah and mitzvahs. I want to be able to help people live their best life through Torah and mitzvahs and foster in an environment in the shul that does the same. And uh how does um keeping the community together like uh you know, it's it's it's not just you one-on-one with individual? How do you keep this whole congregation and everybody uh you know, happy and it's like it's more to it than just coming in and davening and go home? Certainly. Certainly. So, the first thing is to try to spend time reflecting on what are the needs of the community. Um what are the needs of the kehilla? And see what we're doing to address that. When issues come up, the most important thing is that everybody knows that they were heard and understood. And even if the resolution to the issue was not precisely what I want, but if I was heard and understood and there was hashivas given to my concerns, such that some part of the resolution took into account the fact that I had this concern, typically speaking, we'll have shalom. Right? Mhm. When you have, you know, axiomatically, when you get together with a group, you you sacrifice some amount of control over what's going to be. Right. Right? People are going to So, you're not going to have a situation where everybody wants the same thing. Right. Right. That's not really the way. Right? So, what do I really want? What's my expectation that everyone's going to agree to do what I want? My expectation is that I matter and that my concerns matter. And that I'm I'm part of this. Where does belonging come into this? Do people have this feeling of they they want to be part of something and So, I can answer that from a a psychological perspective. You know, it's pretty technical. Um or we can talk from a place of roughness, right? I'll start with the technical. Okay? Belonging is a belonging is one of the most deep-seated needs that a person has. A human being. Yeah. Because we were talking about loneliness before is is is Now, the question a I had a professor who said that the that if you boil down everyone's fears and anxieties and you took it to the to its its furthest point, they all come down to I'm going to die alone under a bridge. Right. Right? Right. Every fear, every anxiety gets to that. Ends up with loneliness. Yeah. So, why is that? Why is that our greatest fear? So, this that's that's the struggle that we want to get to is that people will look away if they're unhappy. And people will will will will not step up and they'll not say things for the sake of belonging. So, so it's it's very complicated when a when a when a bunch of people get together and everybody's there for different reason. You see where I'm coming to is that it's a struggle. Is if if a person has a self-esteem and knows who who that person is, if that person also struggles with that belonging and loneliness and stuff like that. So, definitely. We're wired that way. Think about this. Let's go back um 1,000 years, 2,000 years, right? Yeah. 3,000 years, right? Before any modern technology. You're living on your own, alone. Right. Okay? No community, no one to trade stuff with, nobody Right? What would it take for you to survive? You need to be able to find your food. Right. Prepare your food. Yeah. Create you know grow crops, create clothing, build your shelter, maintain your shelter, defend yourself from attacks from animals and other people. The amount of functioning I the amount that it would take to survive is more than any person could do. Nobody could be the hunter, the farmer, the guard, the cook, the weaver. Right. Right? The baker. Nobody has the capacity to do all of this for themselves. The only survival for people was to be in a group. To be in a pack. Right. People who were excommunicated from a group and and and banished to live on their own did not survive. Okay? It's not possible. So this is a punishment that has been used for for for generations, right? Sure. And it's still used. Yeah. Of course. So nowadays it's not you know nowadays you can work a job and earn a salary and order whatever you need on Amazon. And from your home. Right. And and and and even before Amazon you can purchase everything commercially available. That wasn't always the case. Right. You had to be part of a group. But it's still a pandemic. I mean this loneliness people are like So so it became because our survival was dependent on being a part of a group. Right? So it became wired into us that being separated from a group is death. Is death. Right? It's interesting. Hazal say that if you embarrass somebody It's like It's like you're killing them. Why? What What What do we fear shame and embarrassment? Because Other people's opinions. And I'm going to be banished. I'm going to be rejected. Right. And what happens if I'm rejected? Alone. And what happens if I'm alone? I'm dead. Yeah. So, the feeling we have that we're when we're embarrassed, when we're ashamed, when we feel fear of social rejection is a fear for our lives. So, why do people swallow their true opinions and and what they really think to be accepted? Because what's the alternative? That's it. Death. This is their survival. That's the psychological reason why connection is this deep-seated need. How does a person differentiate the difference from it's me, am I too sensitive, or is is is something wrong over here? You see, you have to you know how they say you have to believe your gut. And sometimes you're like you know it's wrong, you know something is off, and everyone goes along with it, and you don't want to fall out, you don't want to be different than anybody else. But when how does a person know what's right and what's wrong if he does the right move? So, I have an expression that I like to say and I try to teach it to my clients. Live the life you want to live. Right? The words that I cannot stand are the word should. Right? Supposed to. Right. Cuz these words mean I'm putting the world's expectations on myself or my expectations on the world. Right. I really should be that I should I really should come to this school because that's where people like me are supposed to go. Right. Right? I very much believe in the power of choice and autonomy and making decisions based on your values. Okay? So, if a person has identified the values by which they want to live their life. And then despite the emotional reactions to do make certain choices, remain committed to the values they hold dear, they're going to make the choices that they want. And they're going to be where they want. And not living their lives to chasing, you know, avoiding the bad. Right. So, living an authentic life, doing what's those what really feels good in your heart. Trust Trust your gut, is what you're saying. Trust your values. Right. Know what you stand for. You know, understand the difference between what you want and what you desire. Right. That's a very important point. elaborate on that a little bit. Okay. Um Let's use a simple example. Right? I pass by a um a box of donuts. And I smell them. And they smell fantastic. Okay? I desire to eat all of those donuts. Or at least four or five of them. Right. But I value being healthy in my life. Right? It's a very important value of mine. Um I want to live long as long as I can. I would like to be healthy and be able to function in the strong with strength and vibrancy. And that value dictates that I either pass up the donuts or moderate, have a donut, half a donut if the Not the entire box. But not the entire box. Right? Uh depending on the situation, depending right? So, there's a difference between what I desire and what I want and what I choose. If it's reflective of what I want based on my values, I'm going to be happy. Right? Right. People have a hard time defining what makes a person happy. Right. I believe that the common thread in all the definitions of happiness is when your life matches your values. So, why do people have such a hard time not taking not holding back from eating the donuts? Because our emotions sometimes pull us stronger than your life pull us in an in a different direction than our values. Okay? And if we go with autopilot our emotions and our reactions to our emotions will carry us. Not quite sure what's stronger, it's what's present, who is in the driver's seat. Mhm. Left unchecked, our emotions are in the driver's seat. And this is this is this is in all of life. Absolutely. Emotions is if if you follow your emotions, then it's a recipe for disaster, correct? But you have to be very careful. left If you follow your emotions unchecked Unchecked. There are times when our emotions and our values important. An emotionally emotional experience is an incredibly valuable part of life. Right. Right? And if somebody's values doesn't include any kind of emotional experience right? person has no Yeah, that person steps on everybody else. And what it's just going to be a very you know There's no relationship there. Lots of things. So, but who is in the driver's seat? Is it emotional reactivity? Who is the default driver? Right? The default settings of the human being Right. is that the emotional reactivity is in the driver's seat. What takes effort what takes development is to put our values in the driver's seat. I think you know, using lashon hara right? We can talk about the yetzer tov and the yetzer hara. Right? The evil inclination and the good inclination. And we're told that the yetzer hara is present with us when we're born, and the yetzer tov is not until we're bar mitzvah. I think that you can frame the yetzer tov, I'm sorry, you can frame the yetzer hara as emotional reactivity. Which isn't always bad. Right. But and the yetzer tov as values-based choices. Right. So, basically, it boils down to the desire between the desire and your want. Yeah. And and and and other emotions besides desire. You know, if a person struggles with social anxiety, right, and they're invited to a get-together, right? And let's say that person values connection, community, and friendship. They're going to be pulled by the instinctual emotional reaction to go run and hide. Right. And find an excuse and stay away. Right. And their values, if they're accessed, are going to say, "No. I I value connection, and that means going, and that means accepting all the discomfort that is going to come." Being comfortable being uncomfortable, right? Or accepting being uncomfortable. Yeah, going That's the acceptance which we spoke about earlier. So, how does a person do that? So, let's say people who are Let that brings us to the social work you're part of work Not social work um That brings you to the kind of mental health counselor. How does a person deal with that? If a person is stuck in a certain place, so let's say an introvert, you know, a very strong introvert does not want to go out, doesn't want to see people, and it gets no joy out of seeing people. And um how does a person break that? Well, we don't break anything. Mhm. Right? We don't look to break parts of ourselves. The um when a person finds that their emotional reactivity is pulling them away from their values, right? We're not looking to break emotional reactivity. We're looking to strengthen our values and strengthen our tolerance to certain negative things that that that's holding you back. Right. All right. Specifically negative emotion. That starts very often with a therapeutic alliance, with support. Right? When we're suffering, when we're in the struggle, right? It's very important that somebody witness our struggle. Right? Very important element. So, whether it's a friend, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a parent, whether it's somebody a a therapist, somebody supportive in my life. what you're saying is that this is for everybody who's listening, whoever is in a struggle should not struggle alone, should go and find a person, help, a therapist, a mental health counselor, or whatever. And they should go and talk to somebody. That's That's what you're saying? Whoever is suffering alone does not have to. Whoever is suffering alone can seek out the help and the support that will ease the pain of their struggle. Right. But it's a it's a courageous step for some of them because some of them are not used to um open up and they have trust issues. Even with a stranger therapist, um they don't want to share they they they had such experiences in their lives of people who let them down that for them to go and open up and and and some you know, you see it's it's complicated because not every therapist is made for every individual. And sometimes a person goes to a therapist and opens up and puts all their trust in them and all their vulnerable and tells them all the stories and then They don't get the support They don't get the support, they don't get the validation, they don't get the the connection. Now they're hurt. It's two times now. And that again presents them with this struggle between my emotional reactivity which says shut it down, put up the walls. And if the person hasn't adopted a value that I'm worthy of seeking support and I'm worthy of being supported. Right. So a person like that should know that if one didn't work, never stop trying, don't like throw you know, don't throw in the towel. If one is not if you had food poisoning at once, doesn't mean that you're stopping eating food. So uh But you know, going back to your question, the um the point is is that you know, as how does a person overcome, right? So we So we have to strengthen these I did You know, the word What is the word therapy? Right? Yeah. There's physical therapy, there's speech therapy, there's occupational therapy, there's psychotherapy. Right. So what is therapy? Therapy means strengthening areas of weakness. So we're not looking to break parts of ourselves, we're looking to strengthen parts of ourselves. And that part of ourselves that needs strengthening is strengthened again through alliance, through witnesses to my struggle, through taking the slowing it down, through through making space for all parts of myself and acceptance of that struggle, right? And obviously every it looks different for every person. So I can't give a catch all answer. Right. But it always takes courage. Always takes courage. Yeah. And it always means being able to tolerate things that are unpleasant or more often painful. So what you're saying is that if a person has some serious trust issues, there's a child who um learned wasn't neglected which neglect is abuse was abused. And that child learned not to trust anybody. That child learned that not loved and you can't There's children who can't share with their parents certain things because they know a blow-up is going to come or they know this is this conversation is not happening. In the meantime, the child is struggling with this issue or this teenager is struggling with this issue. So that that what you're saying is that you just have to take the courage and go in and start sharing and start trusting? No. No, I wouldn't say that. Because to to trust in an unsafe environment is a recipe for disaster. The You know, why is it that we have this wall in the face of, you know, when we don't trust? Is that like a flaw in the design of people? That that we we we get defensive instead of trusting? It's a preservation tactic, right? Because It comes from an experience that the child had tried two, three times to share something they were shut up. Sure, absolutely. So to just say, you know, just say trust, trust, trust the first thing is to find safety. Correct. Right? Safe physical safety Safety means emotional safety Yeah, safety means that you feel heard, understood. So emotional safety, right? Emotional safety means that that your vulnerabilities won't be belittled. Your fears won't be ridiculed and mocked. It wouldn't be used against you. It won't be used against you. You won't be It won't be exploited to somebody else's advantage in the relationship. Right? It needs a lot of things. But experiencing safety is a key to developing trust. Nobody's going to develop trust if they don't experience safety. Right. Being able to feel safe in a safe environment takes time as well. Sometimes one of the most fundamental parts of the therapy therapist client relationship is just giving the client a space to feel safe. Correct. Right? And when the client the therapist comes in with too much of an agenda Right? We have to push it along. What the therapist? What kind of agenda does a therapist have? What kind of therapist would it can an agenda have? Yeah, what kind? Um if you don't make enough progress quickly enough. It makes me uncomfortable cuz I have to question my own qualification and my own efficacy as a therapist. Well, that's a very toxic relationship between a therapist and a and a client. It's also a very natural human nature. reaction. Therapists are human beings. So, part of our job is to monitor these normal everyday responses that everybody has. Right? Now if if I want to be the greatest therapist. I want to be the therapist that everybody comes into and and and um just does well. And and and that therefore I'll be sought after and therefore everyone I I'll be accepted. I won't be rejected. Right. And if you're continuing to struggle Right? It shows a reflection on you. me uncomfortable. It's not even a conscious thing. Right. I'm uncomfortable with it. So, very subtly, I might try to diminish your struggle. Right? Now, that's not a bad therapist. That's a human therapist. Right. And it's the responsibility of the therapist to monitor this and make sure that they're present in the needs of the client and putting their needs on the side. Side, right. It's part of the job. Right. Part of the training, you know, hopefully. Right. So, as a therapist position. Right. As a therapist, what in your experience, you you're you're speaking to a lot of people in the community. What is your take on what you see these today, these youngsters about alcohol and addictions and all this uh all this stuff. So, alcohol and addictions is not something and you know, nowadays there may be greater awareness of it, but alcoholism has always been around. Always been around in the firm world. I mean, when you say always, how many years? So, Noah got off the table. What was the first thing he did? Yeah. Right? Alcoholism is the oldest story in the book. It just used to be tolerated by society or swept under the rug. Right? Right? But, substance abuse has always been around in our communities. Now, you know, listen. Forever people the drugs was also as uh Drugs are a newer phenomenon in general. Right. So, it came later. And, you know, the firm world's always, you know, 10 to 30 years behind. But, it's not uh listen. The the older generation has forever had issues with the newer generation. Right. Right. Right? These kids and their rock and roll. Right. But my question is if if uh young people today are are drinking and and they're using um are they running away from something or is just a bad friend that started it? It's cool. They they're going back of the building. They start like that. You know, just like cigarettes used to be. They bunch of friends with the cigarettes. So so so those And then Those are the into to to a catastrophe. Is this Is it then it then they're sitting with therapist and everyone is telling them, "Are you running away from something? Are you running away from your feelings? Are you running away from your" So the question is is is this what's going on or is just just like uh it's cool and you know, when you're young to start off and then you're addicted. I don't know what it does. It's just it's an addiction and that's it. But is it is it Do you have to get heal something? Or is it just a fun thing when you're a teenager and then in certain certain people cannot handle it and then their marriage is costing them. Their job is costing them and all this stuff. So the the um Every person is different, obviously. Does it start off in some cases because it's cool? Likely. But people don't get a don't develop addictions because it's cool. Only if they want to hide some feelings. the mechanism of addiction is like this, okay? And it's applies to substance addiction. It applies to behavioral addiction. Right? We all have anxieties in our life. Okay? We have two things that we do to deal with that which makes us anxious. We can try to control it. Get it under control and micromanage it. Cuz that gives us a feeling of security. By yourself. Or we avoid it. Right. Do whatever I need to do to avoid the things that make which is again a survival mechanism. When when we get the danger signals in our brain that this is no good. Right? So it's either you deal with it head on, what are we doing next? Or you don't want to think about it. Or you run away and you avoid. Addiction is typically an avoidance method. Now, here's the here's the insidious part of that. Cuz it's all very short-term focused. When it comes right, so we all have our go-to avoidance tactics. For some people it's food. For some people it's alcohol, for some people it's gambling, for some people it's learning, for some people it's it's uh, you know, finding criticism in everybody else. Now, these avoidance tactics are excellent at keeping us away from that which makes us anxious in the short-term. But typically they increase what's making us anxious in the long-term. Okay, so now an hour later, a day later, two days later, what are we feeling? Greater anxiety. Greater anxiety means a greater need for avoidance. Avoidance, yeah. How do I know how to avoid it? This same behavior. Tomorrow this behavior may So you have a guy and let's you ask about alcoholism. So let's say somebody who's an alcoholic. And he has been drinking way too much. And his wife says, "If you come home drunk one more time I'm divorcing you." His boss says, "If you miss work one more time for being hungover, you're fired." Right. His kids say, "If you miss one more, you know, I'm never going to talk to you again if you don't come to my birthday party." Whatever, right? How much anxiety does this person feel at this moment from all that's looming over his head? Of course. Right? And you say any intelligent person knows that all these problems are coming from alcohol. Right? So, just don't drink. But, the pressure that came from my alcoholism increases my anxiety tenfold. Yeah. And I only know one way to decrease anxiety, and it's in a bottle. Yeah. So, So, logic flies out of the window then. Survival. Yeah. When I get anxious, my right? My amygdala, which is ringing the alarm, danger, danger, danger. Right. Survival instinct kicks in, and the only survival is to do what I can to quiet the alarm. The only way to turn off the alarm is is is to drink. To drink. Or to do drugs, or whatever else. what do you suggest if you see someone drowning? And you want to do an intervention. And what is the suggestion, you know, attacking, of course, we just discussed that that only makes things worse. How what needs to happen that that person should get a a a uh red light on his head that his life is falling apart? So, that's a very complex question that's really individual based on each case-by-case basis. Um one piece of it is when the people in their life stop enabling the behavior. Explain it. So, if I keep getting drunk and missing work, but my wife keeps calling in and making up excuses for me, Well. and tell and and and and and and and and keeps, you know, overlooking all the things I'm doing. And, you know, even goes into my work computer and answers all my emails for me, and and runs into the office, and or or or the people in my life are running around to make sure I don't suffer the consequences of my addiction, right? So, then, the ability to learn from my from my from my consequences is gone. That that's one piece of it. So but that's the other extreme that you explained before. It's either attacking and saying you're done, I'm finished with you if you are still drinking. This one is actually helping him out. Helping him out helping the person staying on on the addiction. But what is the shvil hazahav? What is the right way to approach, let's say if a parent or whatever family member, a wife suffers from a husband. I know there is you know these on Shabbos these can you know people are drinking and some husbands they come home drunk. They come home drunk. They fall over fall into bed for the entire Shabbos or there's a Shabbos. So the question is how do they go about it? Where do they start? So it's a very complicated question. Typically if they're at a loss, I would suggest seeking professional help. Um to look into how pervasive the problem is. Is this something that threatens the relationship? Is this something that might make the relationship unsustainable? It's all of the above. It's it's the the wife sees a serious problem over here. And there's children involved and there's business. Like you said, there's everything is involved. Everything is on the table. And um she's not enabling. She's actually very upset about it. She doesn't want to attack. The number one priority is to make sure the children are safe. Right? If the if the father is coming home drunk from kiddush and acting in ways violent or violent or or or or unpredictable or or nasty, right? Saying saying or doing hurtful things, right? So a parent's number one job is to protect the children. And if that has to happen, then okay, what would it take to protect the children? And what will be That that's number one, right? Once that's not an issue anymore, now do also takes tremendous courage. It's easier said than done. There's uh you know, there's you see the the the problem is that's why we want to get This is called a struggle. This This is the real struggle because that mother of this child has a bunch of sisters-in-law and a whole family and a whole image to protect and she wants to make this beautiful family and nobody knows what's going on in these four doors. Now, it's easy. Protect the kids, you know, go call somebody. She First of all, she'll pay yeah, the consequences for that and second of all, she doesn't want to wash her dirty laundry on the street. She wants to hide it. And uh I'm going to ask you though, protecting the kids, is that an emotional reactive thing to do or a values-based choice to do? It's a values-based choice. Protecting your image and from your sisters-in-law. Of course. Is that emotionally reactive or values-based? Oh, it's emotionally reactive. So, here we are. So, how does a person hold themselves that up to the point to to differentiate between emotional reaction and and a value-based reaction? It's very smart. This is a very If someone can adopt this tool, value, emotion. It's very good for a diet also, like you said before. Value or emotion, what's more important for you? But, this is easier said than done. It comes with such baggage. It comes with such because that person literally needs to change from what? From inside out to have that to have that idea to walk the streets and say, I walk the streets with my values and I will protect my values and I will do what's right. And I accept the fact that I can't change And I accept the negative experience that comes with choosing my values. I can't change. Right. I accept the fact that by choosing to protect my kids, I chose to be the topic of gossip in in in in in you know industry and so be it. And that's and I accept the pain that comes with being the topic. Not so be it. I accept it. So be it is like to belittle it. You don't have to belittle it. I accept that I am in agony. Right. I chose agony here value of protecting my kids. Is there a place where the Rebono Shel Olam comes into this? Because if you're val- if you've if you understand the there's ain't no it move out there. And if you understand that the Rebono Shel Olam runs this place and only he runs this place, then you build up a certain your value becomes important to you. You're not looking at it from a point of view of image and what other people are going to say. Doesn't matter because these people who are you're hiding from are also protecting a certain they're in the same boat as you and all of you running around with anxiety. So when you're bringing the Rebono Shel Olam to this and you understand that this is the Rebono Shel Olam behind it and if this is my journey in life, I will stand up for my values and I will do what I have to do. You see the protecting the children, protecting yourself, making this phone call. And and and actually not trying to destroy what you have, just helping like you said before, growing from it, learning from it and maybe helping the other person in the meantime as well. Of course there's a place for Rebono Shel Olam. A person who trusts Hashem trusts in experience. Trust is an emotional experience. A person who develops real trust in Hashem. Trust in Hashem does not mean that he'll do what I want. It means I trust whatever happens that I am being carried and being taken care of. Right. Right? You know, I always give the mashal that you know, some of my kids are real backseat drivers from the time they're really little. And I have to take my kid to school. And he says, "Abba, aren't you supposed to turn right over there?" Right? Is he trusting me? No. No. And trust doesn't mean that okay, I trust my Abba will turn right. Trust means I trust that my Abba's going to bring me to wherever I need to get. Which might be school. Which might be the doctor. It might be somewhere else. I know he has my back. I Right. I I I'm in his hands. I don't have to worry about where I'm going. Right. So, of course, the bitachon in Hashem gives us the strength to be able to accept the struggle. Right? Right. Because the struggles all it all the anxieties come down to one thing. Here's the way it's supposed to be. Right. And here's the way it is. And they don't line up. Right. So, where do we put most of our energy? Into the way it is and try to schlep it to what it's supposed to be. And like we said earlier, reality is really, really stubborn. It's very stubborn. So, instead of schlepping reality into the way it's supposed to be, how about we say, "Take this supposed to be and let it go. There is no supposed to be." Right. Surrender. I'm here. Hashem will carry me where I'm supposed to be. Because in reality, nobody can help you anyway. You can only help yourself. And and you just help you you could just have a person guiding you, holding you for a while, but you have to do this yourself. Right. Yeah. And we can have people who are who support us Yeah. and make space for us Yeah. and validate and understand, but the real work comes knowing that uh knowing that there is a Ribono shel Olam and you're here for a reason, and you have a you have a job over here, and you have to do it, and you have to stand for your values, like you said before. So, you asked before, how does a person get to this point where they're making values-based choices? Right. It starts with being consciously aware of your values. Right. Okay. That's number one. I know, how many people can tell you what their values in life are. All right. And it's an ongoing process to take inventory of our values. Our values do not stay the same. Right. From the time we're Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah until, you know, until until this until the the struggle is over. Right. Right? Our values I know my values today aren't the same as they were 10 years ago. Right. Right? So, taking constant inventory and stock, what are my values? And then another really important skill sometimes referred to as mindfulness, Yeah. means being able to observe our emotional responses. I I I I say it like this, you know, you ever see um a roller coaster simulator? Yeah. Right? You're strapped into this chair, and it moves like this, and it moves like this, and there's a big giant screen in front of you. Right? And it you feel like you're in this roller coaster. And then you be able to stand up and move to the back of the room. And watch the people on the bench, and see the screen where it's not taking up your full field of view. You understand what's going on, but you're not in it. You're observing it. Right? So, in similar way, to work on the skill to be able to instead of I'm so anxious to I notice myself experiencing anxiety. Right? This is a an aspect of mindfulness. So, when we learn to observe our emotional state, to be present with Okay, where is my emotional state right now? And I can see it from the outside. And I have an inventory of what my values are. Now, I, the decision maker, right? The the CEO of my of my existence, Right. I can say, "Okay, my emotional experience and reaction is pulling me here. I had this list of values here. What do I choose?" Right? I'm not reacting cuz I haven't relinquished the driver's seat to the emotions. I step back. I'm in that observer space where I notice my emotional responses. And I I'm conscious of what my values are. And I make a choice. And there is a price to pay for your value. Always. Anything valuable has a price. That's what it is. Yeah. Now, that brings me to a to this conversation about um relationships. And you probably talk about uh you talked to a lot of people about it. Relationships is everything. Relationships is in business. Relationships is parents. Relationships with children. Relationships is everything. Now, we, you know, the way we grew up with the values that we have is um Kabba des avicha vesimecha. And this is a huge and I I people ask me all the time and I ask a lot of people all the time. A toxic environment, there is a problem. Whatever the problem is, sometimes it's in business or something. A person feels that he's being pulled down. A person feels that he's taking every day two steps backwards. It's really toxic and it's really poisonous. For whatever the reason is, it still hunts. This the Torah said Kabba des avicha vesimecha. And we say it every morning. We say uh I lay uh Kabba des avicha emes. one of I can't tell you What could be better than that? The biggest brochos in the world. But this is This is something that people want to understand. Is there such a thing that the parent has an obligation to, um, to manage so, to behave in a certain manner that the children should be able to be mekuyem the mitzvah of Kibbud Av U'Vaim. That means if a person, if a parent has a shul, if a parent is a an abuser, a child molester, or whatever the case is, that that that really um, is hurting the child. Has a parent a right to use a Kibbud Av U'Vaim card? So, if you can elaborate a little bit on this, and and the problem is that the victims the victims of of of of these, uh, parents are struggling with they have two struggles. One is the abuse. Sometimes there's emotional abuse, sometimes there's financial abuse, and sometimes there is physical abuse. And then there is another one called Kibbud Av U'Vaim. So, so, if you can elaborate a little bit on that as as a from a rabbi's point of view first. Yeah. Absolutely. Because this Kibbud Av U'Vaim, which is a very important fundamental mitzvah from the Aseres Hadibros, is so badly misconstrued and misunderstood. Uh-huh. And used and it's weaponized by parents. Correct. So, first thing is, let's understand the very basics. What is this mitzvah? And what isn't this mitzvah? Right? And this comes from the Mishnayos, from the Gemara. I'm not going to say any khidushim here. Azeh hu kibud? All right, what is the mitzvah of honoring your parents? You give them to eat. You give them to drink. Right? You you take you take care of their needs. You honor them. Interestingly, kabeid does not mean respect. It's mistranslated. either. It does not say love twice. It does not say love twice. It says No, no, no. Right? Kabeid means to honor It doesn't mean to respect them, which is an evaluation, think highly of them. It means you show them honor. You do acts of honor towards them. Okay? So, when they come in, you stand up because that shows honor. They you bring them to eat, you bring them to drink. You don't have to pay for it. We pass the mishloach manot, right? You know, you you you take their money and you go to the store for them and you bring them. That's an honorable act. Okay? What kabeid es avicha va'es imecha does not mean is that you date the people that they tell you to date. You go to the yeshiva they tell you to go to. You live the way they expect you to live. Right? And your life revolves around them. That is not kabeid es avicha va'es imecha. I have to go do this because my parents want me to. That's not kabeid es avicha. Kabeid es avicha va'es imecha only relates to the way you act towards them. You you act towards them in an honorable fashion. It does not extend into your life choices. Period. And that and that's so badly misconstrued and misunderstood. Right. The second mitzvah is morah av, fear or awe of one's parents. And again, very clear, you don't contradict them, you don't speak in you know, for you know, you don't interrupt them, you don't sit in their place, you don't do things that are that that that show disrespect or you know or or or like a slap in the face, right? Defiance. It does not mean again it does not mean that you have to live your life the way they expect. That is not part of the mitzvah. And this is something people struggle with. Now, within that mitzvah, okay, it has been pastened by many great pasten that where the mitzvah of kibud and morah av ain perpetuate trauma, the number one obligation is for the person to protect themselves. If a person had a parent who was abusive and and hurt them verbally, emotionally, physically, sexually, right? The act of showing them honor and being subservient to them in that way is a re-traumatizing of the individual. Okay? And we know now the damaging and terrible effects that trauma has on a person. And a person does not have to experience real trauma for the sake of kibud av. Now, every teenager is going to say that showing honor to their parents is traumatic, right? So, it takes a certain amount of saykhel to to figure out where that line is, right? But there is a line and there is a place where you tell a person no when when when when a father who berated you your whole life, right? Who was physically violent to you. Who sexually molested you. Walks in the room and you stand up for them. That is a traumatic experience. Showing honor and deference to a person who would hurt you so badly. Right? So, that's number one. The if if kibud av ain is a traumatic experience, it needs to be addressed by a rav, a therapist, maybe working in tandem to understand what's going on here because that's because proper kibbud kibbud av em will not bring Trump. Right. So, understood. So, what you're saying is that if a victim, if a child or a person feels that way, then this is the then this is the rule. But, kibbud av em, if a person is not traumatized, um it is a beautiful mitzvah and it should be done and it should be practiced the way it's supposed to be. What you're saying is that kibbud av em still stays kibbud av em, but the extras that you see how kids are being mahabed their parents comes from a relationship that they both have a healthy relationship between the two of them. Now, you could go out of your way, you could go and do whatever you want and and it's a beautiful thing. As long that it didn't affect uh emotionally, negatively the child. But, if the child is negatively affected, then kibbud av em, there's no reason for a parent to walk around and do whatever the the whatever he thinks he can do or she thinks she can do and expect the children to and say, "Kibbud av em." To honor that. To honor that. There's there's there's especially, you know, abuse and stuff like that. So, so we will conclude, it's just to and and and to finish, what is your message that you want to give the people who want to better their lives? The message I give to people who want to better their lives, treasure your autonomy. Treasure the ownership you have over your life and your ability to make choices. Never say, "I have to." or I should. Every day ask yourself, "What do I want today to be about? And then make the choices that are most likely to bring that about. Wow. Anyone can grow, anyone can change. I've seen it happen at unlikely ages. Wow. Right? Anybody can say, "This is who I've been until now, and I'm ready to turn the page and start a new chapter." So yes, there is hope. There is hope. Never give up hope. Beautiful. Beautiful. It was an extreme pleasure to have you here. I loved the conversation, and I learned a lot. I loved your wisdom. And we should continue this. I will look forward to that. Thank you. Thank you very much.