The struggle Podcast EP3 Sony Perlman#thestruggle #addiction #mentalhealth #addictionrecovery

I had a phone call she says he's not responding I'm like you have Nan is addiction a disease or a choice if you wife said I'm divorcing you if you don't drop the alcohol and you're still doing alcohol who's stronger you or the alcohol I had to go through some of these struggles myself call my field research I believe that all addictions are really relationship addictions you don't know why you're here you don't know what you're doing here you're questioning existence you have guilt you have shame you have course these people bringing in drugs into the re this whole thing is so complicated CU people [Music] die we have here today a special guest uh his name is s Pearlman he's The Clinical Director of our village which is uh a uh Sober House for people who are in recovery correct sober Community sober community and um you're also a therapist yes for a lot of years now correct yeah yeah yeah going back going back like what 20 years uh my my first job in the field I was uh is in 99 or 98 or 99 somewhere there so we go back and that was 27 years 28 years what are we up to wow and and and that I was a little kid then was addiction the the focus or so I started out as addictions counselor you started out as addiction yeah that's how I started I went got my first degree as an addictions counseling and then I and then I later became also a social worker but it actually my focus was always an addiction addiction so what Drew you to this uh field more than any other field um so I it was mainly because of like a very tumultuous Teenage life I was like you know everybody calls me about their teenagers I was I don't say I was one of them I was my own person but I went through a really tough time and had to go through some of these struggles myself and then uh I caught my field research right that was my field research so I can know what everybody's talking about right and then I didn't know it at the time but it turned out and then uh I got very there was nobody when I started there was nobody body in the from world doing addiction work like it was not I mean there was it was maybe a handful I could literally say the guys on my hand like that were doing it and uh I mean I I just was very passionate about it it was I also I'm like very fascinated by addicts if I do even without my personal thing addicts are at a place where change has to happen MH it you know you could deal with someone you deal with certain people you deal with you're like you know how much change they going to do they're going to do this that and act has to completely revamp inside out everything and the reason because of the Rock Bottom because they hit a wall what is the reason well they have something called The Gift of desperation which stands for God g o d gift of desperation when you hit a point in your life where you're and we could go much further into addiction if you want but you hit a point in your life where you're just desperate to change you do you everything that you possibly have is lost lost all relationships you lost you lost your self-esteem you lost everything you're you're at the bottom what they call Rock Bottom right so you get this desperation I need to change so then when that point happens and you're looking for help it's miraculous like I I I say you know to my staff I'm like we we're dealing in Miracles like everyone you know like we're excited when someone gets better but like every single person here is a miracle you say it's like it's a sober house is right now we're build so we Community like we're up to the sixth house where're we're like it's a community people maybe 50 to 75 people like in the community now that are very very connected to what we're doing and we're watching Miracles daily so like that to me I came in because of my own experience I stayed in because of the Miracles right like it was it's like uh it's so special to be part of it but what happened what was the turning point in your personal life that you decided that this has got to come to an end and I'm going to take my take control of my life and then go and become a professional uh advocate for these I mean I don't think anything ever happens in one blast but I do have a couple of moments there was a point where I hit like a real like a real low where I was like literally I want to say literally in a gutter like I was on the side of the street and I was kind of passed out and realized like I there was nothing just got to stop and there was a moment where I just looked up to God and said like if you could figure out how to pull me out I will help people like that's what I will do that is crazy but that was like early on and then obviously forget about it afterwards but yeah how you at that time probably like 18 years old like young pretty young you know what they say that the they didn't know that Rock Bottom has a basement he can even go further than Rock Bottom yeah I think Rock Bottom is a because everybody I hit rock bottom rock bottom is just when you decided to change so wherever you when you're in addiction wherever you are you're always at the bottom but everybody has a different Rock Bottom some people need to go to jail to they Rock Bottom I know people that went to jail and went to reab and went to they went to everything didn't hit the rock bottom until they got an infection in their toe like it doesn't it you know all a sudden their foot was blown up they're like that's it enough is enough like what do you mean you went to prison for 5 years that didn't do it so Rock Bottom is just when we say enough is enough and I'm tired of this and I believe that I could be better and I want to and then you reach out your hand right that's that's when the person who's struggling now I believe if you really go into like what I believe what I believe is that we have to get these people way before they're ready to reach out their hand I find that a lot of people hit a rock but they don't have anybody to reach out to right so we had like early on I created this idea called the bungee cord effect CU I run our place in Brooklyn and that's kids who don't want to get better still involved with a yeah sure sure and this is not this is just like a drop in a teen it's just a job addiction it's not it's not addictions but you have a lot of guys that are like smacking middle of their addictions and they don't want any help and so our Theory I got this from a zma Mandel who someone who was in the field when I started and he came with this idea of this bungee cord effect which is like we're going to build an incredible relationship with you today and when you hit the bottom you're attached we're the bungee CT so you don't have to a lot of people hit that bottom they have no one to reach out to they've cut all ties their family doesn't want to talk to them anymore they everybody hates them at that point and they they have noide to reach so I believe the work of the people helping starts way before people want help it's like when when you see the person going downhill and it's still okay it's still uh still not the end of the world is when you have to start working on relationships you would say I think the bigger thing is that there's a big idea in the field that no one could get help until they want help right and there's a truth to that but it's also who they asking for help when they want help you have to preempt them wanting help you have to start doing the work before they start wanting the help and that's a lot that's a lot about what community does so this is not even about the therapists that work with the guys but like family members and community members like you see someone struggling go make a relationship with them like they should reach out to you before that's what that's what I I was saying if I contribute anything to this work it's you don't need to have to to want to get better to get better we could as a community we could hold you before you're even ready to get back wow that's right it is amazing yeah how would you explain addiction for people who don't understand what this is okay I will do there's the typical way but I'm going to skip all the typical you got to get on a normal addictions counselor for for the regular yeah yeah yeah cuz the the diagnostic manual has its own version the way I see it the best way I could explain it is that everybody in this world has to deal with what we go through with life with life and life has good it has bad it has everything but we we have to learn how to deal with it and the way we deal with it is with a self-esteem so our self-esteem is how we deal with everything and our self-esteem is made up of two different pieces one is worthiness and comp worthiness is one part and the second part is competence worthiness is I'm all right and competence is I can do it right those two things so we all need we can go further into the self-esteem but I'm just explaining because it's my whole philosophy is built around the self-esteem but the the idea is that we need that self-esteem to be able to to deal with life and as we're children it's instilled in us that we are worthy we're special we're wonderful we're loved and that we could do it so let's say you know usually the mother is the one who gives all that unconditional love and the father gives the like you got it go climb that tree go take those chances so between those two things you develop an internal self-esteem and what the psychologists say is that we internalize it right so now could walk around with it right something goes wrong in our lives at what age it could go wrong at any age that's when you lose your self-esteem you could start with never getting a self-esteem okay for starters it's on a spectrum no one has zero selfesteem right right so you could start but very often trauma even if you had a decent self-esteem trauma tells you you're not worthy that's the message of trauma it's maybe when your D comes in when you start you know as a kid you like you said you get all this courage from the parents you feel good about yourself and stuff soon as you become a teenager and you know you become 18 19 20 you start questioning and doubting yourself and that's when you see you're undoing everything that you know maybe but I think that's really that's the manifestation but if you go back to anybody who's an addict you're going to find that they were really struggling very young they were struggling at 8 they were struggling at seven they were struggling at n or different everything in life was incredible difficult they're also usually very sensitive and spiritual people they're very sensitive and so life is really really difficult so the option in life and this is getting back to what explaining addiction this is a very long version but the option in life is either we have an internal self-esteem or we have to create an external self-esteem so with with in life we all mostly deal with our issues from their inside and then we watch a little too much Netflix we watch a little to this maybe we smoke cigarettes we we we we all use some form of outside I need to go to the spa once a week we all use something on the outside that calms us that soothes us what an addict has is so little internal self-esteem that majority of how they deal with life is from the outside the outer Environ so when people say oh I'm a drug addict I'm an alcoholic no you're not you're every addict you don't find just a I'm just an alcoholic that alcoholic also drinks too much cof coffee it also has issues with relationships also because it the addiction is not to the thing it's on us right it's how empty are we inside that we want to that we need to use an external self-esteem correct they're doing the exact same thing as regular people just they don't have the inside to handle it so they use the outside and then the outside crushes us because it's not real and it hurts us that is a very clear explanation yeah it's a different way of looking at it looking uh uh basically what you're saying is that they get their self-esteem from a toxic place from an outer environment instead of an in in inner environment that's it yeah and really what's happening is that just trying to to be able to handle the world I need to feel worthy I can handle it when you discover and you talk to an addict and you say what do it feel like the first time you put that pill in the first time you drank they will almost always explain it like it's pure love mhm like I felt love like I'm all right the world is all right that idea it's it just explains what they're looking for is I need to feel all right they're not trying to get high or run around and like have fun I know you mentioned on your podcast on the last that we talked about is that um brainstorm brainstorm with son prom it's fine um you were saying that you're a tremendous fan of Gabor mate now I heard him once explaining addiction and he was saying that the addict hates the bottle he hates the drugs and we're focusing we're calling him an addict we're putting on a cap on he's an addict and this and that but he says go to the core of the problem they don't like the the alcohol they don't like the drugs they're running away from something they're filling a certain void right that's what you were saying well so the fascinating thing about God which which uh I'm not sure if I'm saying it right everybody says different than me um the for years I've had like philosophy on addiction and never just I discovered Gaba mate late but does he have a different uh philosophy than the mainstream yes what's the difference from him to well there's the mainstream there's been a huge focus on the drug and not the fact that it comes from PR and it comes from so there's been a lot of like hey drugs are addictive so if you stay away from drugs you'll be all right so the the mainstream philosophy is don't walk on the side where the alcohol store is just stay away from it right even 12-step philosophy does not believe that like if you if you know AA and they this idea of like there's an idea in 12 step philosophy they say people places and things you stay away from people that do this you know and the and the places and the things that's 12 step they say it's 12 steps but in the 12 step philosophy it doesn't really believe that because the original 12 steppers they'd go into bars help people out that's what when you heal yourself there's nothing to fear from the drug correct or the AL yeah it's not the story it's not a fear you don't walk into a kidish and all of a sudden ah yeah and anybody who relapses they'll tell you they relapsed two weeks ago mean like it's not it's not like oh I just smelled alcohol and then I was done it's two weeks ago they stopped working on that Stu they stop doing the work and then all of a sudden that's you know so that's so okay Gab interestingly I discovered him late and someone said you know everything you're saying sounds like gate I'm like who's that and I I mean I booked up his book it was G aen like he I now I don't necessarily agree on his Solutions as you know he's very focused on therapy and different types of solutions that I don't I don't but in terms of his analysis of the issue unbelievable I think he's the top but he broke my heart so because he was like yeah he has his personal views political view CU he because he's so anti-zionist that I'm like and he's Jewish and interesting it's uh it breaks my heart but I you know I'll tell you the truth is when he talks about he's such an empath he's such a person who sees people suffering you know also to me I I see the situation you know anybody suffering we're Jews yeah we we see a person suffering we want to help them even if it's our enemy so I kind of you know like I I get it I I I get where he's coming from but I don't think you go up against Jews Like right you know you got to you got to protect your people right so I have a question for you is addiction a disease or a choice um I don't know if those are the two only options but I'll I'll take it uh because I'll tell because I'll tell you what it is they push a lot in rehabs and stuff like that you should get up and uh say that uh you know admit that uh okay you have a problem but it's a disease and you're going to have to live with this now I know I spoke to a bunch of addicts and and they don't like the word disease because that again it gives them a label and you can't get out of it you're done with it for the rest of your life they want to feel in control it's like if I want to stop I can stop why you're giving me this uh erupts people the wrong way certain people other people feel very good knowing that this is a disease and I'm dealing with this and I'm sick and what's your opinion on it okay so again if we if we're talking about a lot of people have a real issue with the idea of powerlessness because because a disease says I'm powerless I just have something and I have nothing to do about it in my belief I I don't know how we Define diseases in the world like I don't know disase something you catch is something you know like you have is we talking about cancer right from all the years of dealing with this it might as well be a disease meaning because it's on the person mhm it's there's something wrong with you now I believe that it manifests closer to maybe and I know you do a lot of stuff with with uh narcissism that's all your stuff so the closest thing I could say addiction is is to a personality disorder it affects your entire personality so it's as close to so would you call personality disorder disease I don't know if you call you call a disorder so the word disease really came out originally to make everybody feel better that they have it so they're not immoral people right that's really where the word disease came from and also because they wanted insurance to cover it MH so it was a technical issue right but the idea that a guy comes and says I'm not powerless I can control my life nobody's saying you can't control your life but if you don't understand where you're at where a guy who is trying really hard to get off of drugs or alcohol and he cannot do it he's in a dependent stage he's not in control of his life so the idea of saying I am powerless is not becoming powerless it's admitting that this thing has taken over me power over you and I need to find something in order to find my power back what I think is people throw it away very quickly because like I don't want to do the paress thing a parous is you are poweress if you're using alcohol you're trying not to if your wife said I'm divorcing you if you don't if you don't drop the alcohol and you're still doing alcohol who's stronger you or the alcohol so it's not it's not on the Alcohol again we're not dealing with like I could get off the alcohol not there's something wrong with you that you're not able to handle any emotions right good bad and medium you can't handle them so you're using something to make it if you don't recognize that there's something wrong with you so that's why I don't have a problem with people calling a disease because call a disease because that means there's something wrong that I need to now deal with I do believe that you could heal yourself to a point where you never ever think about this stuff ever again the rest of your life right and many people have done that as far as powerlessness as Jewish people we believe you know we believe in the believe we have we have isn't that powerlessness I mean it's our this is our DNA that uh you know we try to get the ego out of the way and we let the run the show yeah I mean if you pull the if you pull a veil away underneath we're powerless right but the way that God helps us find him is by giving us the feeling of powerfulness that we're that we're in control that we're in control and if we're in control and we choose God then that is then we actually chose it but if we recognize that we're totally powerless then what are we choosing right so we have to we have to come into our power to be able to understand our powerlessness correct it's very powerful I get very annoyed when people are like I don't want to admit I'm powerless the amount of power you need the strength you need The Bravery you need to say something is taken over me that's power and that's power that's power but you have to understand that that the level of bravery it's it's terrifying to say that I'm a man don't treat me that way right I think it's a very powerful thing and it there's a there's a little contradiction going on at the same time also in the 12 Steps it is powerless and you'll always kind of remain powerless but at at step four you start it's called action steps and you start doing all this work to be powerful again but you have to recognize if if it's all right I i' love to like give a little Marshall uh to explain this absolutely so when I was talking about the self-esteem before we're talking about we're talking about um there are two parts to it and the first part is worthiness and then competence the second worthiness as I see is the love tank it's like a tank and a car and the you could have the best car in the world that's your powerfulness that's my competence that's how I could do it if you have no gas in that tank then that car doesn't work or it works for a mile or two and then collapses the way addiction works is you don't have to focus on the car almost at all most addicts I've ever dealt with are incredibly capable people in the second their tank is full they're Off to the Races they're driving the the best the driving whatever I don't know what a good car is now yeah a Tesla not a Tesla cuz they don't don't have a tank but what I'm saying is they're driving they're driving the greatest car they're they're driving a Maserati that's what they have so they know they have a Maserati so you say how do you tell me I'm I'm out of control just look at my car well your car doesn't have anything in the gas tank so that's really what what's happening is is that when if you want to understand addiction addiction is a behavior it's not a behavior it's it's a t it's being stuck in a developmental stage where I can't deal with emotions because because I don't even know if I'm supposed to be here I don't feel worthy of living I don't feel loved I don't feel beloved that's not how I feel so I'm fighting to like act like I'm all right but I'm not all right right so that first part that gas tank is always empty with an addict so all you have to do so the first stage when you talk about powerlessness is realizing wait a minute I'm sucking my thumb I'm a little baby here I'm a tiny little baby I need help and then the world starts helping you and starts filling that tank again starts patching that tank with all the holes from the trauma and all that and it starts filling up and then you you're back in your Maserati so the problem is that people say is that what do you mean when I go to work I kill it I'm better than everybody else for a month but why did it stop after a month because you ran out of gas so the what's happening is the powerlessness is my tank is empty the powerfulness is I can't use my awesome car until my tank is full so it's very very powerful after you fill this tank that's what I'm saying well if you're getting what I'm saying it's amazing amazing stuff now I was going to ask you what role uh does stigma play into uh the world of uh recovery because the people suffer from what they suffer and on top of everything it's supposed to be on the ground so they suffer from two things they suffer from hiding so no but the stigma is so big I mean in mental health in general the stigma is like you know people are trying to bring it up to the surface but there's a two-part of struggle that's going on in in in the world of addiction that you know the rooms and this and that quiet people don't parents families it's a huge uh burden on you know the people who suffer yeah it's interesting I will tell you when I first started so like you mentioned before that I started a long time ago this was unheard of yeah if this happened in the community no one talks about it it I mean level of stigma was like through the roof right what I've seen happen and I could split this between different types of addictions but what I've seen happen is that almost every family is struggling with somebody you know like like everybody's got a nephew or a niece or a parent or an uncle everybody knows everybody knows somebody and I feel like the cat's out of the bag like everybody knows about it so when it comes to alcoholism and substance abuse I don't think there you know obviously the more intense your family is the more hush of your family is more hush of you think your family is or like the more like I don't know the more you how seriously you take yourself I don't know it's definitely um an issue but I have found is that most of that is gone for for this for this issue like with with alcohol and substance abuse what I will tell you is that like things like relationship addiction or sex addiction so that was my next question that is where the level of Shame Shame yeah that people feel because it's connected to morality correct so when it's connected to you had question interestingly before was like when we talk about the Z's disease was a way that they said hey this is not a moral thing right it's not moral to have cancer not have cancer you have it right it hasn't really transitioned over to things that like that we consider immoral right like cheating on your wife is immoral oh you you so the level of shame that people feel from the addictions the relationship addictions and the sex addictions I don't know what you could talk about on your podcast you talk whatever what I'm saying is open podcast that the level of stigma there it is so incredibly difficult to get get better when shame is front correct because it's it's it's holding you back the joke I make is like you could have it's not a joke but sadly a joke but when when when you meet a drug actor an alcoholic who's in recovery how long does it take for them to tell you that they're in recovery maybe six seconds it's almost like v a vegan you know you sit down with a meal with a vegan they tell you like five minutes in they they tell you it's that close cuz they're proud of it look what I've done I've overcome this it it became accomplishment it's like you're working on yourself you can know a guy for 20 years he'll never tell you he's dealing with a sex addiction issue right you won't even know the level of Shame now if I'm got trying to fix shame what shame does is make us feel unworthy I'm I am bad shame says I am bad guilt says I did something bad shame is I am bad right the level of shame that people feel if I am bad how do I recover I'm not even a good person I don't feel Worthy even recing I don't deserve it I find it what you're pointing out is so real and so true in those things I don't really feel it find it too much in alcohol in substances I don't find what about the gambling gambling also has a level of shame but it's somewhere in the middle somewhere in the middle because I remember this word there a degenerate you know is a gam you know what I mean they used to have these these uh he's an alcoholic I had a issue I know a person was struggling with with alcohol and this other person was just talking about Alcoholics whatever in a very uh downgrading demeanor you know and this guy he didn't even know that the other guyy is struggling with it right and it was just the conversation was going in all directions and this guy was like biting his lips you know in the meantime he's sitting in meetings and he's sober for years and he's working hard but the way the guy was with zero sensitivity you know just talk about these degenerates and like it would be it would be their choice to uh that's what I'm trying to get because if it's a choice if you know is who can be blamed for this can a teenager or a person who has a house and the house fell apart can you be blamed for it like you ruined your house it they can't be blamed but if okay it's a complicated issue because especially you mentioned gambling ancts gambling ANS one of the things that gambling do is they destroy everybody around them's lives MoneyWise steing they stealing and taking like mortgages on their houses and taking their colle funds and the amount of people that they hurt I mean I it's it makes sense that that people will be very resentful and upset about that that you have a disease right but you hurt me and you hurt yeah you know so but you what you're saying is that the root for Gam for sex addictions and for substance m is all the same which that you're filling a void that you don't have you're looking for from a wrong you're looking from you're looking to get self-esteem from an outer environment instead of an inside environment which is it's just this is sex addictions and this is substance but it's all the same well if you want to break it down as a therapist I have found different ways to that I've seen differences like different people are into different substances seem to be different types of people people different right different personalities will get into sex addictions different personalities be into gambling addiction I will tell you almost every gambling addict that I know the focus or non-focus on money in their house growing up was always odd almost always meaning either it's like we never have enough money or or like look at those people that are very rich or like there's a huge amount of focus about money so for them to have money or to make a windfall of money or literally builds them up um and there are other addictions I I go into analysis now what kind of addictions do you treat do you treat that you specialize only in substance you wouldn't touch let's say no we because my philosophy is this we do every addic oh so that means the sober house that you have and and whatever when you recommend rehabs and stuff like you deal with sex addictions as well correct yeah I well if you if you really want to get into the deeper part of it I believe that all addictions are really relationship addictions meaning if you peeled everything away because what are we really looking for when I'm talking about this tank and we want to fill it up what are we looking for is we're looking for love we're looking for people to tell us we're all right when we're children and our parents say you're great you're great you're great eventually the child goes oh I guess I'm great they keep saying I'm great they say I'm wonderful they say I'm beloved it must be true so what everybody's looking for from all this stuff is trying to have people fill them in I believe if you take every addict you'll they started as people Pleasers they're the most Charming people you me in your life they're the best salesman they could read a room like no one else because they know how to make everybody happy so that they could feed their fill their tank what happens is is most of that becomes exhausting to try to make other people behave a certain way so you can feel better is absolutely exhausting so at some point you take a drink and you go wait a minute that had the same feeling that I'm like working my brains off for so all the sudden I'm going keep doing that or I'm going to shoot up or I'm going to whatever I'm going to do you're they're all looking for love right so when you when you ask if we're dealing with guys with sex addiction the truth is the second you peel away you know like substances you find out that they're desperate for love right and they're doing behaviors that are that look like sex addiction behaviors so it's it's it's almost impossible to not work with I'll call them love addicts I'm not gonna I think sex is just one piece of it but talk you're gonna find that they're love addicts and so to separate them the only reason I would separate them is that they have a hard time relating oh that's your issue that's my issue but in terms of the work we do it's the same it's the same work and that is filling up their tank the 12-step program at the end of the game we'll get to it but at the end of the game what do you do in the rehabs the rehabs they're sitting from in the morning till at night in meetings that's all they do they sit in meetings and what did they talk about they talk about the 12-step program what is the 12 step program at the end of the game spirituality which means you're missing love like you said before your gas tank is empty let's sit together over here and understand that we are powerless and there is a higher power and surrender and nothing has to be the way we get your ego out of the way that's basically in a nutshell with the 12 step program is am I correct I mean it's a very complex program and I would say to narrow it down to just spirituality is is minimalizing how important part of it right but I could say that it is a massive part of it it is a massive part of it yes right the problem is this if a child is born in this world and there is no parents around there's no people around to tell that that God loves you and that we love you and you're special and you know saying that you're special is saying God made you special so like right it's our mush to what God is is our parents and it's our uncles and our aunts and our grandparents that's what we think God is the only way we understand the idea that there is a being greater than us that loves us unconditionally is coming from watching our parents and watching the people around us that love us so now technically the nyell is hey I don't need any of these people I'm fully loved and I'm fully perfect and that's true it's 100% true right yeah the problem is is that we do have our little child in us and it is asking am I loved and God is hiding behind the curtain and not letting us know the loving the parents I always thought there's interesting that loving parents was in the Sarah Dias is because you have it's right there if we love our parents the connection goes to God it makes a connection I very often find people like their connection with God is off and I'm like what's your relationship with your parents let's talk about that and you'll find it's very similar there's even a practice that we do that you could write down like God is and my parents are and you'll find it's the same thing you think your of God as your parents that's how we do it so if you want to go very very deep and say oh we really don't need anybody and we're fully content and we can live on top of a mountain as a monk and feel perfectly fine galed it's a good mind exercise but it's a mind exercise because all of us all of us the healthy we are the less we need but you put a guy the worst punishment you could possibly do to him is put him in solitary confinement everybody knows this they will go insane we need this musall all the time we need to know that we're all right so we could feel very strong and I could go a month by myself I could go two months by myself eventually my tank is going to start questioning oh am I loved am I where's everybody no but you were saying Hashem is behind the curtain but is isn't it a way of some people just see Hashem and everything they just it just whatever they go you see behind the curtain you know but they see things they see things they eat they come they go they have this positive outlook in life they they love the trees they love the grass they love the beautiful Outdoors that they see the in every little thing it's awesome and they probably living a very good life absolutely um and and uh all power to them but you know there's a lot of people listening to this podcast hopefully and uh I think it's going to be a tiny percentage of people that live like that they that's somebody and I will tell you another little secret about people like that they usually had good parents that told them that God is there their connection and they didn't doubt their love from their parents correct or the opposite they had such bad parents that God became their only parents possib this is also possib that's a possib but the fact is all of us were flawed beings right and I don't think it's such a flaw God made us in a way that we need people right and those people fill us up yeah for sure so to say h we know you know like we could just have God even it's a level you have to even in bous it says the story of creation is in two levels we were created by ourselves and we were created man and woman together a part of us R salv guys is the most amazing essay ever on this which is called man's uh lonely man of Faith which is one of the most amazing essays but the a part of us needs community and a part of us needs to be alone and connected to God just us and God that's it we have to fill both those parts of us so and also on your podcast you discussed um and that was it was very briefly but if you can elaborate on it a little bit when you find uh you know a client of yours or whatever and you evaluate that person you're saying that um when you talk to the parent you're telling the parent to not taking blame for the situation but definitely take a good look and see what role you played in this um you know on your child whatever is happening to your child I said this on my podcast I think you I think oh yeah I'm not a big blamer no no but I think it's it was exact words but it was like you know I have to take a good look at a lot of times when you talk to a parent talks about their child then you trying to reflect you know the parents will first see how he is doing you know right is can you blame P I mean is it is it a parent tried his best and and did whatever they could and and really uh was was was doing trying at least to do the right thing is can a parent blame themselves if they see things are falling apart doesn't really help to blame of course not e yourself or anybody else but we are made up of our parents I'm saying if you I find a fascinating that I've talking to PE I've talking to people who were in their 70s and 80s and they're still talking about how their parents r i see it doesn't go away her most impactful years are when we're young and we're sponges and we're just taking first 20 years right yeah well Freud it's the first two years you don't even have you know Erikson maybe gives you five years I'm saying you have right we're you know we're Jews we believe you can keep Reinventing yourself and all that but they have an enormous impact on us our parents I I think when we become adults everything is our responsibility there's no mean if a guy does a crime and then says oh well my parents me bad like still going to jail it's not so to understand that some of our patterns and things we're stuck on yes it comes from our parents and if those parents are willing to discuss it with you it could be there's a lot of healing that could get done between the parents and the person who's struggling and by the way the parents are struggling too the same struggling the and and there could be a lot of healing the healing does not start from a blaming place that's I definitely I'd be surprised if I said the blaming thing not blaming but it was it to recognize where our patterns come from and to say Hey you know oh every time I said this or every time I was sad you know my mother stuck a cookie in my mouth and I don't know why I have an eating disorder now like I or like or some sort of eating problem like you could find where it started but to sit on it like this is the blame you're not going to get better move on you're not going to get better but you could say oh there goes again oh that was yeah that's that comes from my uh you know my father used to say this every time I this I yeah so I feel and then we could do healing sometimes that healing has to do with the parents Obby fishof is a guy hopefully get him on your uh but he's a fascinating guy but he believes and I agree that probably the not probably most of the healing that has to come from addiction could come from the parents the parents again they're the Marshall for love for God they are it so when they come back and they say Hey listen Maybe we made mistakes here and there but I want to let you know you are loved and they go back to that focus of like don't worry we're going to fill your tank the parents are the most powerful factor to healing in a person's life and people don't realize that a lot of times they're putting it on they're putting it on therapists and coaches and you're going to parents coming around doing their own work and realizing where they could be helpful to our kids is the biggest impact it's the biggest impact not even close number two is like very far down the list parents are top of the line but I don't think anything start I I don't see too much healing from blame no at all sure not blame is is sure not the right thing now as far as um what's the ratio that you see in your experience the difference between men and women in addiction is it 50/50 is it less more boys well I mean I listen I deal mainly with men we just opening the first women's house which is exciting here in everything's in M like a sober house yeah yeah yeah it's a community so they you need a women's part of the community and we're very excited about it but and me personally I have I am like old school like aan Sara you know the men should work with the men the women should work with the men women we have a boy's hour place we have a girls hour place you know the girls are run by women and the men are like so I one there's one the lighthouse here in mon the lighthouse run by women you you're involved with that too I'm I'm involved I uh inv inun I'm involved I'm helping because I'm very excited about what they're doing and uh Alex uh who runs it wants to pay me and I let him give me a stake before shabas if if I do any work for him so I get paid in Meet old school you know but uh and he's doing great stuff so the fact is I get a lot of phone calls about women and I do pass them along the numbers when it comes to substance addictions or out external addictions seem to be overwhelmingly menen but that being said I think women are struggling with a lot a lot of internal type of addictions that are that are doing some serious damage to them which is like codependency love addiction that type that type addiction a lot of that stuff is not manifest in a way where you like point at him oh that guy's about to die that girl's about to die like it's but it's destroying their lives right and uh so there is a tremendous the ages are from young girls all the way to to to women with with children with families and yeah it's it's not it doesn't discriminate like right right addiction like again here's another piece of addiction that I'm going to throw at you which is different I believe it's a spectrum meaning I believe right now I'm sitting here with you we're both addicts okay we're just not dysfunctional addicts well I don't know about you we'll find you talk for yourself yeah yeah yeah I'm not a dysfunctional I'm a very functional addict what does that mean I let's say if we took the ratio of external self-esteem and internal self-esteem I probably have a 70 on a good day 80% internal self-esteem and and and a 20 30% external sub and I I you know I like to play on phone and I like this and I'm Hawking and I'm looking at Instagram res and there's no purpose for this there's no I can't have an argument that if I watch enough reals I'll be better at marketing I I don't have an argument I just feel alone and I feel empty and I'm filling myself up by spending time it feels good and it feels good so what I what I'm saying about this is that there are times in our lives where we could actually become full-blown addicts if our external it like for example and this is i' like to give the Shiva example which is which is how our whole program is run is that when you lose someone you love that hole in your tank it just like sucks everything out you don't know why you're here you don't know what you're doing here you question existence you have guilt you have shame you have all the terrible emotions and all of a sudden you went from being someone who was a healthy person to you let go you're very unwell you're very unwell and we treat you as if you're an act we surround you with love we come in we it's a shiv house you know like our our village our rules are shiv house rules meaning if someone's broken we bring it to them we don't tell them get up go get a job Force we bring them enough love to build them up that they could get up and go out on their own and that's what we do during Shiva but there are points in our life where we're so down things have happened so bad that our addiction levels could go up so it's not a stagnant thing so when you ask like you know you have so the addicts we're talking about like that are extreme they're like have almost no internal self-esteem they're like 80 90% of external is that that's happening at every age every gender every we we're all you know we we're all we're not we're not immune to this how much spirituality is going on in that Shiva house I always come back to this because I don't I you know exper my own experience in life and and with life experience say how much love can plenty but how much love can strangers and and it's built on people and this is the almighty so and and the 12st step program you see I'm talking about a yish yish point of view but this is the 12st program is not a Yip point of view and they still spiritual it is but that's what I'm saying it's still it's still a lot of spirituality going on so in in when you say a Shiva house and you say We'll shower them with love and and we'll bring him back how much of a role does spirituality play in that I would say it is almost the closest you could get to 100% spirituality when we try to okay when we get to harini right and they say okay we hitting this is the highest level the Jews ever hit right yeah they're talking to God this is I mean talk about a psychedelic experience they're there they're with God you know what does Rashi say is what what was what what happened we became we became like one the highest level of spirituality is loving each other that is the highest level human could possibly get in spirituality that is how we connect to God by loving each other we say we lost a second base of English because we didn't love each other the second gets taken away from us because we're not on the level of spirituality to maintain it idea is is that like I said before like it's a marshall to God it is God when I love you yeah an animal doesn't love each other I need something from you what am I getting from you oh I am I getting food from you am I mating with you what am I doing that's what animals right right human beings we love you because we are like God yeah and our love towards each other is how we are Godlike so when you have a room full of one guy he's broken he's doing nothing for you he's not you're not even letting him work you're not letting him do mitz doesn't trust anybody does nothing he doesn't even want it he want you to go away and you know what we say no God said love you did I am being what God is on the highest level when we are like disrespectful to God we go against God's rules and we know that he loves us no matter what always that is what we're doing I can't think of a more spiritual experience than a shiv house and it seems so simple just a bunch of people sitting around yeah because there's nothing to get from it besides for love it's all that's happening to me that's pure spirituality see people talk of spirituality I sit on top of a mountain and I I concentrate I'm connecting to God it's a simple feed on the ground spirituality yes it's the highest yeah you how many times have you had someone come to me my father he's the biggest Sonic in the world and he doesn't treat me my wife and and and he doesn't treat his wife and his kids well that doesn't seem like a spiritual person to me right like right it's a very good relationship with God you know what God Said God said treat each other beautifully that's you want to have a spiritual relationship go take out the garbage for your wife that's a spiritual relationship you're talking about oh I need to I need to be high with God yeah I that's what I'm saying I maybe I'm downplaying how much I think the between I think benad is is the deepest level of spiritual it's amazing stuff yeah amazing these a good question that's a good question no you have good questions I like your question how should a how should parents or a family if they find themselves like you said there is not a house or somebody who doesn't have any uh connection to to these things how do they best support a person who is suffering through addictions M okay there's so much in this question because it's because there's the question of like there are other kids that are not dealing with addictions there's there so many but but but this particular if someone finds himself a family of eight and one teenager is going off with the you know she starts seeing the stuff you know he likes to smoke he starts with this starts with afraid of the downward spiral it's going to and they want to support they want to do the right thing they can go crazy also what is your advice like what your parents do so the first thing is to recognize and this is something I get misquoted a lot on because because uh I'm always talking about love and unconditional love and enormous amounts of love and all that stuff and I and I agree to that everything is should continue with all that stuff that being said when you recognize when I'm talking about addiction I'm talking about this you have to understand there are certain people for for some reason they're stuck in a place where they need a lot more you know so like if you have a kid with cancer you're G to give them a lot a lot more CU they need a lot a lot more correct the kid that you know I was asked once uh like how do I spot the addict in the family like how do I spot like which one is going to be an addict and the best answer I have is the kid who is the most sensitive the most caring the most sweet the emotions like they cry at a drop of a dime they they feel feeling so strongly that's the kid who's going to struggle they're spiritual they're connected they believe that the world is supposed to be good and they're shocked when it's not yeah most of us are like hey the world's not such a great place project your thinking and it's fine you live in the you know right there they're in a much deeper place in a sense where they're able to they they like believe hey the the adct says it's not fair it's not fair so like what do you mean it's not fair grow up yeah but a baby knows like it's not fair is is like uh it's supposed to be perfect like you said we're supposed to just connect to hashm we don't need other people no the world is the world and the so when you spot the kid in the family and you talking about kids and teenager whatever you spot the one who is feeling feeling so powerful and all you have to realize that first of all you're going to have to be a little more sensitive with this kid but also realize that this person's tank runs out a lot faster than everybody else's so you have to up your game when you're dealing with with people who are struggling with addiction and you have to realize that they're going to test you and keep questioning whether you love them or you don't love them and a lot of the work we do at the houses the same work you could do in the in at home is that there is two parts to our job since we talk about the tank two parts one is the patching because there's a lot of holes they've been hurt for some reason or other so there's a lot of patching and then there filling and the best way I could explain the patching is always from tests they will say they'll they'll steal the car and go smash it into a tree they didn't do it on purpose but it's a test do you still love me that's a very extreme example but it's happening constantly constantly you sit down with me oh you're hanging out with them but not with me they're literally so much sense it makes a lot of sense they're testing all the time the way to put patches is to pass the tests we don't pass every test but we pass them we for we try to get out of the details of what they're doing to hurt me and go oh he's just asking for me to convince them that that he's loved so I'm going to pass this test and the more tests you you pass the more this tank is getting you know patched and then the second part of it is refilling it which means coming out of nowhere and doing special things to them noticing when they did something awesome and telling them how much they appreciate it telling them how much you love that stuff is good if you did that without patching it's just going to leak right out like I tell him I love him all the time I always tell him I love him and yeah but you told him you love him but when he uh you know he's he left the the cereal out you yelled at him yeah you're like whatever so that's a whole separate parenting class because the parent the parenting classes that you have on the street that you can find today is for standard you know they'll tell you do this do this your parenting classes everybody there's a lot of common sense but there's also parenting classes this one you said something very profound this is not so simple you are saying in every family there going to be one or two kids who just the softies these are the the people the spiritual people has nothing to do with the parents it's just the way they look at the world it's going to affect them in a certain way and they can fall into addictions and now they're testing your patients so this is a whole new class of parenting how to deal with these type of kids you ask the good question you get the good answer the the listen parenting classes are are frustrating I was just watching on the meaningful people podcast you're talking about standard parenting classes they're frustrating because I have four kids how many kids do you have three three kids they're radically different than each other every child is yeah yeah and they're radically different than all the other kids I've ever met in the world right so how are you giving me a class like a general class that CL you want to give me some ideas you know you give me some ideas but like hey it makes no I got this kid and this kid needs this and that kid needs that and it could be the exact opposite right the frustration I'm giving you a general like overwhelming scope of an idea but if I tell you okay this is what I just said is good for every single kid go do it yeah it's crazy and most kids are are regular kids right where if they make trouble as a teenager you just say you're grounded and they go shoot I'm so mad and they go to their room and they're fine yeah I'm not saying you could run around and be like ah you don't worry whatever you do is special and we love you no the way we know that we have to not do the grounding is that we tried that grounding on this kid 10 times 20 times and every time he gets worse most kids go Oh my God and they on the phone my parents hate me and I better shape up and I gota wear this you know and they fix themselves Obi fishu has another Marshall I'll say it he says if a guy's it's like if a guy's driving the wrong way on a oneway street you go over to him yeah hey you're going the wrong way 90% of people in the world are going to be like oh shoot and I didn't realize and they turn around they go the other way 10% will be like I'll go whatever way I want that's your atct yeah like that's the one you're going to have to do it differently with right so don't everybody everybody body needs to be go through every test and you know everybody thinks of me as a big softy I believe in yeah it just once in a while you get someone if you get a kid with cancer I always I always found that you know like when you have Camp Simka right yeah it's Camp Simka they have this canteen yeah where they could take all the candy they want world you ever heard the worst in your whole life I mean you imag it's open though open go crazy what are you talking about these people are they have got they got suffering so much they literally are looking at at like the end of their life at a child at a age of a child a level of trauma right they need more love right that's what it is when you have a kid like this and you realize they need up to you game hey open the canteen yeah give him some candy that's wow it's easier said than done but uh you you have to be a therapist you know you know every parent has to be a a therapist in their own house you don't okay I'm saying you don't all right you you're the parent if you understand that all kids want is they want you to love them and be proud of them it's as simple as that it's so simple it's just some kids are not getting it some parents some parents need to work on themselves also while they're parenting they're still growing up yeah so these parents need to work on themselves how to open up and how to be you know because they have their own issues here they have a family they're trying to raise right and issues like this come up so it's it's it's I will tell you a fascinating side effect of doing this kind of approach with your kids is it it is such a relief for parents to stop fighting their kids stop fighting stop fighting of course cuz when we believe that we have to fight them because we got we're responsible for how they turn out and but the level also it has a lot to do with image also you see which Community you live in but it's a what are people going to say what are the neighbors going to say forget about the the actual problem that you're losing this child right what's going around you know with the the the the community and this and that it's like it's hard I I want to tell you something I don't get that so much maybe I'm not my community I wear sweatshirts no but yeah but I mean saying what we where did you grow up I grew up um shash community in Faro uhhuh we I actually had like L and yeah because every Community I I've left that Community a long time ago yeah but every Community has this um you know what are the neighbors going to say what's everybody has an image you know it's also not the healthiest thing but you know if you're living in I'm telling you from what I'm seeing it's going away slowly it seems slowly but I 20 years is not a long time and in 20 years it's been a radical shift I actually have a lot the pain and and the suffering also it's like you're going to tell me to eventually people rebel against the idea of of of rejecting their kids I love this kid right you're going to tell me what are you talking about this person didn't reject a kid this person didn't reject you know what I'm not going to reject my kids because you because I need your community and parents are fighting back they want to love their kids they want to live they and they don't want the community to tell them that they can't love their kids right that's what I think is happening that's it that that's making progress that's steps in the right direction I want to tell you something in when I started Brooklyn was the worst yeah it's not the worst anymore what I'm saying is that most people in Brooklyn have already been realized like come on your kids's doing some things to be fine you know like take a chill right right most people I very rarely get this where do I get these phone calls from I get them from the k Community I get them from the the Lakewood Community oh my God am I kidding I'm like yeah listen I got these phone calls from Brooklyn 20 years ago and it'll be fine 20 years you you have your way also like this calm cool and collect you don't get nervous on the phone yelling SC crisis there's no crisis there's no crisis yeah chill out we'll deal with it we saw it before and that is also very calming it's a very good uh it's a listen the reason I'm lasted you know like I talk about the people who were in the field when I started no one is anymore this is a burnout anybody who like said this is Crisis crisis Crisis crisis how long could you crisis keep going right yeah it's going to burn you out I see this when you're looking at this as a lifelong issue right it took 10 years for him to get here it's going to take 10 years to get out of here and it's fine and he could do wonderful things along the way yeah that's life if you deal with it with a crisis you're going to make all the mistakes me everything goes oh my God my kid I better send them to a psych ward at 14 years old because he might die out of the amount of damage you're about to do because you believe it's an emergency right is going to be worse than anything that he could have done himself right so I'm like dealing with people are like you know the I sent so few people under 20 to RAB I just I I don't know sha s Bo all day everybody's going they talk to a few people and they're like you need a rehab right so you're dealing with an emergency now this guy is going to go to reab and learn about the real drugs learn about the real stuff and it's I I the way I feel is that if a person does not cry on and running on all fource to the rehab it's never going to help just because you send them there and you give him you know it's he has to want to help himself he say I'm stuck I'm in a bad place like you know he wants something he wants to fulfill it from a different place I think you're mostly right the problem is is those couple of people that everybody knows were forced in and they did good they ruin it for everybody yeah they ruin it for everybody because there's always a couple of exceptions that they got forced in and they're like thank God my people forced me in and I did great right and it's 20 years later and they did great and so everybody's like oh it worked for them it worked I would say if I pick a number maybe 10% of the time maybe that it works that was my next question about intervention what is that I mean intervention can a family get together and like this person is all over the place he doesn't want to listen to you his head is not here and the whole family gets together in the living room and they're like okay you're going or whatever you get some professionals involved is it helpful what's the process so let's say if a person the entire family and the the loved ones believe that he belongs in a rehab right now what is is the intervention the way to go so I I find much more damage from interventions than good because again if you're understanding addiction the way I do which means a enormous lack of love you have everybody standing around the room and saying we're about to pull away your your love from you cuz it always comes with a threat like well but the threat is that reab is a jail like it's it doesn't matter if you don't do what we say then we're not giving you this we're cutting this everything's getting cut which this is their only tether back to a community is their family that means every person who loves this person their boss their therapist everybody who loves this person is now saying well you're you're out unless you follow our rules every bit of love you felt is all conditional that's what they're saying so you with advice against intervention so I don't do interventions and I'm not a big fan but that being said and I want I say but shim Russell was my original I don't know if you know shim he speaks about the teenager um so shim Russell was my original supervisor you always say when you say but you're negating everything before that and I do believe that there's something called a love Intervention which you get together with a bunch of people and change the language it's not it's not even a threat or anything it's just we love you and we're really having a hard time seeing you struggle like this and if you died it would kill us we're not doing anything but we want to let you know that we're here and we'll do whatever you want to get help whatever we have to come up with MoneyWise or this way we want because we we're seeing this and we're not it's not under the rug we love you and we're here for you and we're going to do whatever it takes to help you we're not going to force anything but we're here here we are right so so in a sense I do believe that it's a good idea to like get you know like a lot of times everybody's like hiding under the rug oh we don't know what to say to him we don't know ah you know like if we talk to him he's going to reject us and it may be true back but if you come in with a lot of love they're going to hear oh my gosh the people who love me want me to get better which is a message of love we want you to have a good life we need you in our life and you're affirming that so in some sense is you know intervention's good but the language has to change and the threats have to go right because also I don't like sending people to reemal they're dying to go MH but I will tell you this whole thing is so complicated because people die just at the end of the game you had there was another case this week yeah iel from what whatever I I don't want to give out too many details but I I was sitting with that guy a couple months ago and begging him to like do something for himself and he's just like I'm good I I don't want to do anything I've been in and out I've done this I went through you know and I'm like it's possible you're going to die this is not a joke this is this is this this does not end well it's not something that you have a choice go don't go if not you'll be a little bit off the this is this is death right so so to tell people hey guys it's not an emergency and then you keep hearing about deaths in the community it's a hard one the problem is you can't deal with it like it's an emergency but it's a kind of an emergency kind of an emergency right so I'm saying it's a complicated one and when people see me so calm they why you so calm right I just know that it's not helpful to not be calm but you really what your job isus it's not a joke it's it's not just a you're talking and trying to help people out you're sugar cing this is this is severe stuff it is and and is is all drugs and and and you can die from all drugs or just a c no you can't die from all drugs you can't die from all drugs a few bad ones there's a few bad ones yeah there's a few bad ones and there is a problem of some of those bad ones being mixed into the ones that you don't die from right and when you buy them on the street you don't know it's laced or this or that you don't even know what you're doing they're putting fenol on almost everything now so it's like everything I everything they say it's you know sometimes in pot I don't believe they put it in weed also I don't believe that but it is something they're saying I I shouldn't go on the record saying I don't believe it maybe it happened but that's scary stuff it's important to know I just don't I just don't know it's to me it seems like a scare tactic you know parents not wanting their kids to do pot so they're saying this fental on it I remember there was a time that the shivas or or the government was sending home Naran you know this do you believe that every parent should have one in the house I mean people if your kid ever messes with drugs you need to have it please have it it's not a joke I need I want to tell you something it's it's a miracle maker that that I know I have myself brought somebody back from Death with Naran keep the craziest thing I have all over in my b no but in your where do you like put in the medicine cabinet everywhere I'm saying you put in the medicine cabinet I have I was in the rehab once I visited then I saw they have Naran in the rehab because these people bringing in drugs into the rehab absolutely it's crazy I have I have uh everybody who shows up to my to my office I give him some Nar ANS I'm like here take just to have him in the house listen I'm not in the world of but I of of like hatala like but what they do is incredible yeah but if you time there's no time till Lula comes right listen the truth is in our community that's Alla will be there so fast it doesn't matter so much but if you're I don't know if you're going camping or something if anybody is messing with any drugs you they should doesn't hurt at all to stick it in their nose and spray it it's nothing it does nothing I've done it to myself it's it doesn't do anything it only helps in the old days a heroin overdose was just death there was just no way now it's a miracle so I mean listen I'm not this is not my uh box but I but it doesn't hurt to have it in the house and most people don't need it but yeah I mean most people some people are in denial they don't even know what their kids are bringing home right you know this is also a subject for itself no I had a phone call I was actually camping and I got a phone call from somebody that was dealing with his mother and he said she says he's not responding and I said um you know like send me a picture she sent me a picture I'm like you have Naran yes get it in his no I I'm too scared I I literally like start walking get closed I walked her through the whole process I say you got to tell her on the line she that's all on the line and she shot an Aran and the guy's doing great today what I'm saying is like he was dead I'm talking gray I'm talking no pulse I'm talking no breathing it'll bring you back it's it's it's listen we we we we knock big farm a lot especially after Co but uh there's some miraculous things out there listen I I don't think that the answer is going to be keep nanning people right right but I think but education is missing a lot of Education in this field is missing what of Education like let's say Naran or about how to deal with this issue I don't think there's enough people know about it people know there are people who take care of it right but uh people should you're right I think the bigger issue is who do I call yeah where do you start where do I start and I get I mean enormous amount of phone calls like and I'm like I'm just one guy yeah it happens to be Community everybody calls everybody like that's they call whoever is like they're calling everybody and hopefully people answer we do have a couple of organizations that are helping out this but it's there are some individuals also who are like on the low they're like yeah you know under the radar but they help out yeah there was one guy who was telling me that he he doesn't want to you know people he's he's not in the public eye because the people who he talks to sometimes he meets people and he doesn't want to be affiliated with oh you talk to him then you're having the you know you're dealing with this issue you know sure you have it also I have it also it's fascinating they had like a while ago they had uh I think orava was doing uh like a shabbaton or something no they were doing a calendar and on it they were like people were able to like dedicate a page right and somebody like dedicated a thank you page to me and I was like you just outed yourself yeah you just said something you sure you want to do that in public but yeah I mean it's uh it's it's a concern for some people as many under the I should probably get okay yeah yeah yeah exactly when they give me under I'm like wow family's really aggressive you know right right credit to them would you be able to walk us through a day in the Sober House How would how would day yeah it's pretty simple how was that go it's pretty simple I okay so the sober house is it's also he just living life correct so it's not rigid it's it's not like rehab structure this and that everybody's supposed to work 9: to 5 you wake up you find them jobs yeah we help find them jobs that's probably the hardest part of our it is very hard especially because they burn every bridge that we could possibly make it's like everybody's like yeah I'd love to hire the community with hire it right people are nice about it Community is amazing amazing people individuals are like sadik M there's no I'm talking about individuals yeah some people are like you bend over over backwards for for you know for another person no the mom is amazing I'm like absolutely amazed cuz these guys they're hard to hire yeah sometimes some of them are amazing and this is a business it's money and people are you know is I mean is it what part of oh for me no no for that for the for the business owner to hire somebody who is you know what I mean listen theread an organization like there's organizations popping up to help these guys with getting jobs and I have a a whole group of guys I I give them a shout out sometimes they call the neighbors they built the neighbors shomman Kim they built like this organization with a bunch of Bot helping these guys get jobs and all this cool stuff the community our whole philosophy is the communal approach so we're trying to bring in layers and layers and layers like when somebody walks in they're being surrounded like a shiv house with a hundred people loving them like day one God's work m is God's work God's work yeah it's awesome so you know the day is pretty simple you're learning you're working all day and then you're coming home and you're going to meetings there's a lot of gathering and and hanging out with right away you go go to meetings when you come home you eat you eat you go to meetings who is cooking you have a chef or we have a nice Chef a chef people are cooking you sit down at the supper and then there's meetings you jump right into meetings yeah yeah yeah there's meetings there's downtime also yeah there activities watching the ball game we go out a couple times a week we do different things and how long usually is a state so the program really goes on almost forever because the 6 months which is very intensive right which is in-house that's inhouse it's a lot of counselors and therapists and everybody working with them and all who's funding all these things is this private it's private pay we're a nonprofit but we try to break even now who's paying this this is family's burden to pay uncles father's it is it is terrible yeah because there's no insurance right because the over could insurance but you have to do a different philosophy than me the problem is that I believe that you shouldn't be doing therapy all day you should be at work you should be learning how to deal with a boss learning how to deal with colleagues learning how to while you're doing recovery and there's a lot of recovery and a lot of support but you're also doing life the way to do the insurance is to go to reab during the day an outpatient rehab IOP they call it yes you go during the day the insurance charges so much money for that that it covers the house mhm that's a way to make money right I just don't want to do that with people I want people to be out there learning to live their life from day one so that six months later they're really independent they move out they're ready to go we have so we have sober houses around the area where they could stay there's no counselors it's just a place to live where people are sober right so like they could rent a room so those are other houses that we have but uh so you could stay there this year I just went to the ninth wedding like in the last year and a half people are moving on with their lives it's unbelievable it's Absol a bunch of guys are engaged and they they're moving on they have careers they have jobs they and this was just a little bump in the road or or there's it's a lifetime of I want to tell you something it the people that come through this yeah they're the best people in the world of course these are like Special M shumas but they say people walk through those doors are like like extremely I know a few of them loving and uh these are not tough uh you know difficult people to deal with and stuff like that these are no cuz they they have worked on themselves more than most people people in the world sometimes a guy comes someone comes in and they tell me their issues and I'm like I feel so bad that you're not an adct cuz you don't realize how sick you are and you're just not going to get better right addicts are they know day one if I don't work on myself they're in trouble you know what I mean yeah um in the 12st step program what is the hardest step in your opinion the highest step the hardest oh the hardest toughest it's fascinating because I mean this I'm not a 12 step Buck you're not no believe it or not I'm not um you should get nansy it's your it's your uh it's your field it is my field but but I do and I'm saying there are people who are 12 step like like uh like they understand the depth of all that it what I believe simple right it's complic I mean it's it's a very okay so one of the beliefs of the 12 steps is keep it simple stupid you know that's the kiss is the keep it simple the answers to problems are pretty simple they're just not hard they they're just not easy easy and simple so simple they are hey believe that there's a God that loves you that's simple yeah the hardest thing in the world right so what I'm saying is that each step is incredibly hard but they're also incredibly easy and like oh I I get that that's that makes sense what about going back and and uh asking for forgiveness it's brutal from years ago you're talking about but I don't think it's the hardest step that is not even the hardest I don't think it's the hardest step I think it's a step that a lot of people avoid but I don't think it's the hardest because of Shame yeah it's as embarrassing as anything it's really hard but they say that in order for it to work 250% you have to go through every single step right you can't 11 steps right well okay so what I what when you break down the steps I do believe it's only three steps so there's the first stage which is your connection to God right and then your connection to yourself is the next from 4 to 11 and then there your connection with people right giving it back which is a 12 step is like giv it to other people right so which works very well with the stages that I work with in my community which is the I believe that the first three steps is like filling the tank it means that I believe that that I have an issue and that God's going to help me and he's going to take me out of this he wants to help me he's going to take me out all that is about believing in worthiness right now I didn't work for it the beauty of the 12 steps is that a lot of people a lot of people come to us as a front person and addiction and they believe that Hashem loves me because I do neas in the morning that's their belief I'm using a silly example but if I behave well enough said Hashem loves me in the 12 steps and it's a very Jewish idea Hashem loves you no matter what it's a question if you open a channel for him to come into your life that's up to you right it's not like AEM Hashem is infinite he can't love you less I mean I guess he could he doesn't want him so the idea of the TW the first three steps is believing that you're loved now that's to me is the hardest steps even though they say the fourth step is when we start working on ourselves and writing all the things that's the car right that's the Maserati that's just working on yourself people want to jump to the fourth step before starting if you get those first three steps solid the fourth until 11th is not that hard only reason the fourth step they consider the hardest step is because people didn't work on themselves they don't feel worthy yet so now I got to work on myself and then I feel like I want to fill up my tank all the time right so that's what's going on the most important step is the 12th step though the 12th step cuz giving it doesn't stay unless you give it back yeah so that's giving back that's the 12 step right if you want to look in further pick up the big book yeah what a role does mental health play in this um in in recovery it's everything this isn't mental health issue but is it a mental health issue because there are people who don't have um serious mental health issues they just fell into addiction I believe that addiction is a mental health that means if you fall into that category that means that it's a developmental disorder that's what I call it so it's you I mean it's it's in the DSM which makes in a mental health issue I don't know how to separate mental health from addiction because it's all in your head it's will connect it's all in your mental health so what you're saying is how you know does the Overflow you have mental health like anxiety and addiction or or or or things that people would need medication for you know medication is a whole different discussion the uh there are listen there are people that take medication for addiction yeah and it stops drinking there's all kinds of all different you get makes you right I'm not a big fan you're not a big fan of what of any medication to really help these things these things there it has to be mind mindful we got to work on ourselves now there are there is a there is there's an argument to make that medication will help you work on yourself but the idea of being dependent on a medication for almost any of these things it's something that I I just don't think it heals you I think it may stem it off a little bit longer you feel a little better for you know little but ultimately it catches up to you everybody who's on anti-anxiety medication anti-depressants they keep having to build up and do more and they always eventually want to get off it I hate this and they can't get off it so it like starts a whole another bunch of issues but there's a lot a lot of crossover between addiction and other mental health issues a lot of that has to do with like mental health is mental health issues is traumatic yeah and that could cause addiction also also so mean like if we having a metal health this year it's over it's all intertwined I don't know how to separate it it's very rare that you're going to get someone who like walks in and he's got like a band he's got to rip it off oh I got addiction Banda they right oh you tell me you don't have depression you don't have anxiety you don't have they have these things so sometimes it's you know um maybe this is not the most satisfactory answer but they're very connected yeah yeah yeah no I hear what you're saying now would you call um psychedelics drugs I wouldn't call drugs drugs this that's why I want no I want to hear the what's what's your takes on psychedelic no first of all let's say the first thing I don't have a problem with drugs okay drug couns are saying that is a little ridiculous like I said several times already I don't think addiction is on the drugs like you you walk the sh there were a couple of bottles there right said don't look at the bottles right right it's not the bottle I don't care about the bottles right I can walk through a a liquor store a million times and it doesn't even I'm not even walking in there mean 90% of people could drink without any problem that's that's really it's 10% of the population that has a problem so I don't have a problem with drinking I don't have a problem I don't have a problem with drugs and tell you something you think heroin's really bad what is everybody get after an operation we get Oxys we get per we get painkillers and what do we do we stick in our medicine cabinet cuz we're done we don't get hooked on it right right we move on okay and you know who get gets it the addicts come find it in your cabinet all right but meanwhile there was an addict once who went to a Shiva I didn't know he was so smart he went with me he told me you want to come we go a Shiva call some place so he comes to the shiver call and he's asking one of the one of the people were sitting shiver if was were sitting after their mother and they were asking your mother was sick right she was sick with the she says yeah she says do me a favor I have tooth problem a huge problem go into the medicine chest and bring me all the painkillers over there because you know it's just just my my tooth right she came back and this guy emptied out every bottle this was probably a lot of money yeah you know but he's shopping at chal Great move it is awesome yeah the reason that it's one of my biggest argument that addicts that tell me like oh it's it's about every addict I know that is addicted to pills knows that if you walk into any any house you'll find pills of course now if it's on the drug everybody would finish every pill they had addicts don't leave around pills right right right they finish them and then they need more right so most people can handle it so for starters I don't really have an issue with drugs I think that they all have a purpose I think painkillers are a good idea after you get a surgery right I you know I don't like oh my God don't do painkillers if you have an addiction issue then you can't do painkillers right so that's that's an issue so when it comes to psych like IESA is is uh controlled you know in a CL whatever right but then there's these other that people are just thinking you know by themselves so that the par of like iasa and all that stuff although my organization is very serious that I don't recommend it to anybody because it's illegal and I don't but I do talk about it because there's a lot of there's a lot of new research coming out and a lot of amazing stuff coming out and I have my some of my own experiences with it so it's I have a lot of opinions on it um first of all it's not your typical addictive substance it's not it's not addictive at all right no it's not really only reason I'm saying that is because I do believe people get hooked on the idea of feeling better so they keep going back and back and back you're not supposed to go back like so many times I mean I don't think you should I think that how many times do you think is is is if someone wants to you know whatever by was it's a uh it's Case by case I would say but even even if you were doing it I think if I hear of a guy going more than once or twice a year then he's already getting it's getting crazy the idea of the psychedelics is that the best way I could describe it is like again back to harena like you know you get inspired you get really inspired but now you have 40 years in the desert to like work on that inspiration you know what I'm saying like you need to get a kickart and that's it so if you got to keep getting a kickart every single month every week it's too much and what I think this is a bigger problem than just psychedelics we're in the belief and it's a very addictive belief that something is going to fix us yeah it's going to be therapy it's going to be this type of therapy it's going to be that it's going to be IAS some kind of substance do something I'm not all right right and I got to be fixed and that's what you want to uproot it's great so the problem is is that first of all you are all right you're not feeling all right maybe you got to work on your feelings and make this you're all right let's let's start from there that's a very important thing you're struggling with feeling the all right that you are right you are right so the idea of like I am bad and I need to fix it is a trap and people are chasing all the time they're going and it's not just iasco or or Ian or all any of these other things it's that belief that I could turn myself into someone else someone else who lives in a Utopia who feels good all the time or that other person can help me or this and this thing is going to help me right you want that person to find it from inside and become independent on his own yeah but also understanding that life comes with with with a lot of heart and a lot good difficulties and it comes with all that and it's fine so what I'm trying to do is like that is that line I pray to God not for a lighter burden but for larger shoulders you know like so I could handle that burden so we're building ourselves up we're building up our resilience to handle life but if you you know when you walk out of an experience like a like a like a psychedelic experience and you just feel like I'm better yeah and then a week later you feel like yourself again now what do you want to do okay well maybe you see it like a lightning in the storm and there's a direction out and I I know I could feel better because I felt better so I could go in that direction and start feeling better and better progressively that's The Right Move what most people do is like oh I feel bad again so go back to it and they're doing it with medication they're doing it with therapy you're back as square one yeah so what I see as an amazing tool I really see psychedelics as something that is not explored enough and it has had major effects I've taken people people that I know that have that have gone through it have gotten off of substances because of it I I've seen people make radical changes in their life that sustained for a really long periods of time it's an amazing tool that has an ability and the best way I could say it maybe is that it Reve it takes away the curtain I love that you have all these curtains the musle curtains but it takes away that curtain of you feeling like you're not all right it says you're all right mhm that feeling is so incredible but you're able to see out of the storm like wait a minute I nothing changed my life is exactly the same but somehow it brought down all your defenses and all your walls and all of a sudden you could see oh there's a beautiful person in there that's fine right that's great and then you want to see that person again well you got to do work to see that person so that's really that that's that's the the issue is that people want to keep pulling down opening har again again again again and then when I say it's not addictive that's addictive correct that part becomes addictive right but what how does a person know if it's for him or not because I think it's some people will have a very ISO on line and this some people have very bad reactions to it like if they their wiring is not you know what I mean it's not cut out for this it's a complicated issue and part of the reason it's complicated is because it's illegal so there's no real like testing process or figuring it out everybody's kind of figuring it out on their own this but it's a risk to take it's for you know if people are listening and like they're entertaining the idea because everybody yeah it's a risk it's a risk well it's a risk because it has different effects on different people definitely on your mind on your brain cases where people talk about psychosis afterwards you could argue that you could definitely argue that there definitely there are practitioners that are giving out this medication that should not be they're giving it out in ways that are irresponsible they're not they're not on top of it so there is because it's illegal it's done in a million different ways with no real um you know real supervision there's nothing in it so yeah it's a risk um will I say it's as big a risk as um taking Oxys probably not right that that's a that's a scarier risk to but there are issues there are there even physical issues you could actually get a heart attack if you you're on certain medications and stuff like that if things are not done properly so it's a very very potent all these things are very potent they're very powerful and everything that's great could also be terrible so these things have to be monitored you know what I'm saying not everything is for everybody yeah so but I do have very good experiences of my own and I've seen good things it to me it's enough that it should be explored much much more and hopefully it could be another tool in the toolbox of everybody who's trying to help that's what I hope that's my hope for it I'm I'm going to wrap up here what is just getting started what is what is the most horrific story that is stuck in your mind that you saw in all these years oh my God all right it really touched you to to to the core hey um I don't know well I'll say I'll say a couple things I mean it's for sure be death I I find it very hard to see anybody's situation as too bad cuz I really am an optimist I've seen people from the absolute worst places and do amazing like so it's someone comes in oh my God I lost all my teeth and I'm this and this and again and I'm like ah you're about a year away from being fine that's kind of how I right say it in my brain because I've seen 5,000 people look like this guy and they're doing fine like so even though I've seen stories that people would be like oh my God that's horrible I only say it if they don't want to work on themselves but it's not they don't strike me so the deaths happen a lot one particular death you know comes really uh hits me hard as a guy I worked with um a while ago and the week before he died we went through how many programs he went to right less than a week like three four days before he died and I was really really close with him and I was part and we came up that he went through 42 programs right and I paid for most of them the truth because his mother was not very supportive of it and his father was gone and like he really had a Ty difficult life but this is somebody why it make me so more sad than most people who die I mean every single one literally crushes me how you get up the next crushes if there's one thing that makes me want to get out of this field it's the death I don't know what to do with it and I don't how to console myself it is horrific oh my God to watch a young person die before their time and you know the family and the is loved and it's so incredibly painful it's unbearable I really there are points where I can't even go to the shiv like I I can't I can't even watch the pain but that's not good but um he really really really wanted to get better like I'm saying 42 programs and no one forced him into any of them what happened was an overdose going yeah it was an overdose he kept going not an intentional one no I don't think so no no he wanted to live you never really know with overdoses but it's generally non-intentional and it really strikes me is that he just didn't have the community to Landon you like I think about him when I build my program here it had he didn't feel loved he T didn't he didn't he didn't and he like he just didn't feel it he just didn't have that community and he went to riab to RAB each one and it feels good to go to riab because in riab you're loved for a little bit but then you leave yeah and you're not loved anymore and then you collapse and then you know so you really the answer to me of all these things is is the community that Embraces you when you're like I'm actually I don't know if you could I don't know if you put the camera I'm really loving the statue you have here I don't how you put this camera like this holding I want I saw it like me this I want that I you need to tell me where you got that it's it's it's so containing I love it okay I love it um but I I keep looking at it I don't know if anybody can see it cuz whatever is in the cam it's not even the cameras is a beautiful things um so if you're not coming back into a container of Love yeah I don't care how many programs you go to I don't care like that's I see people just try their best come out of rehabs they they go to detox rehabs and then they get lost in sober houses all over the United States and it's like halfway you know coming in coming out it's not what you're describing a community of sh people tell me oh you run a sober house I'm like what are you talking about this the most important part after rehab this is not a sober house this is a full loving community immersive experience of unconditional love you you're fully immersed this is not a sober house some guys making $800 a month you in a bunk bed that's not what's happening here it's full and intense unconditional love is the highest level we could get to to me that's what's needed and that's like uh it's unbelievable no I I I I don't know so when I when when I think about that guy I just it like it's so been so many so many I I do I don't really remember the bad stories until people ask me right because the good stories way over way right so many good right so much and that's what keeps you going I mean that motivates you every day to get out of bed well tuition really keeps me one final question who is your role model who is my role model it's a very hard question I have several Ro models in my life you want me to say one or one is fine so the two role models that I have in my life is K gland and trishaa okay and they're both how do they make an impact in your life so glad is someone who hates when I talk about them okay and Robert herps is also a very special part of my life I have a bunch in the past but they're not alive right now um but K gland is someone I work with for the last 25 years or something like that and he can't stand if you talk about him or gets any accolades or anything he doesn't he doesn't have to have the perfect life it doesn't matter he completely sees himself as a kayy to help the community and it is never about pressure I just want to follow his example like he's and it doesn't have to be easy he's not like a like like trying to make himself AIC or is and that it doesn't have to be easy or not easy it's just this is our mission this is what we're doing we're not asking for any credit we're not asking for anything this is someone I work with for 25 years and it hasn't faltered and I'm not talking about easy life behind scenes he's behind the scenes people like and part of my job in our place is that I'm supposed to be the front like people so people don't realize what's really happening what's going on behind the scenes but you know so I've agreed to be the face and which means I have to go on things and you know do podcast and stuff but that's one person and trishas is is a therapist that I study on I've had her on my podcast several times and she's just trained me to be incredibly empathetic and compassionate and deal with deal with what we're dealing with and never stop learning so like those are the two people I really have been looking up to amazing stuff I want to thank you for being so calm and cool and collected and calm people down in the in the time of Crisis and I want to thank you for coming it was a pleasure to have you and should help you that you should be able because we need you know we need people like you you're doing God's work and you should should pay you back because nobody can pay you back for this what you're doing oh man he has paid me back tell you the truth beautiful I haven't even spent one second talking about how I'm a wife is I I never skip a podcast without mentioning okay so share with us and not a moment in my life of being with my wife I questioned whether she loved me or not Mish she's just she's just it's just she doesn't this is the best thing I could say is that she doesn't even know she's supposed to torture me no one told her like you know you you have a husband you supposed to torture him a little but if you recognize that she is the luckiest woman that I can tell you well if a husband can recognize that on a wife and say that then she is lucky okay well you have to get her on the Pod find that out I definitely the luckier one of the whole group yeah but uh she she's been with you all this years she's been with me we since I'm 17 is she playing a role in the business like in the no not at all no she's we're in Brooklyn we have she's in wigs right she's she's selling wigs she does wig gur we Guru okay check her out she actually has a master she was working as special ed um teacher and then she gave it up for she was with you when you went through the hard times uh we were we were best friends so she knew you back then yeah that's why she didn't want to marry oh okay but it took me a long time to convince her to marry me because she so she so all before and after I mean hard times I I was still a nice guy man amazing stuff I I also I I did a lot of things very very young MH so some people like you know it gets worse and worse say you get older right but you have a mission the gave you a mission and this is your schas the way they say yeah it's your this is what you have to it is and I I there's been times when I try to get away but it doesn't it just it pulls you back in doesn't work I I try like oh do a little bit this or that you know but like uh it it doesn't it doesn't stop should have a lot of to continue doing what you're doing you're doing God's work and we all appreciate all of clol appreciates it I me I just thank you I just want to say before I leave that this studio is amazing I I love every part I'm incredibly impressed yeah excellent thank you I really appreciate it a lot of hard work went into this it's awesome I I don't know if the audience can see but it's like it's got all this all the bells and whistles it's got the bells and whistles it's great EXC I love it all right thank it was lovely it was lovely to talk to you