The Struggle Podcast EP24- Dr Akiva Perlman PhD LCSW - Trauma Specialist

Some of the greatest teachers I've ever had have been the pain that I feel in my heart. >> It's taught me things about life. You know, anyone who wakes up every morning and feels great. >> And it's like, "Oh, this and and faces the day. Oh, this is going to be amazing. The day I don't need to work on myself, that's the day I expire. >> That's like my time is up. I'm fighting my way through this. This is we're in the struggle." You know, that's the podcast. We're struggling. Well, I can tell you how they do handle it. Okay. >> Horrifically. >> Yeah. >> That I just want to throw in. I think there's too many people smoking marijuana these days. >> Yeah. >> Because a person has suffered, it doesn't necessarily give them the right to cause suffering to another. And mature love is I have a self, you have a self, and we choose to join one another in communion. >> What is trauma bonding? >> Okay. Today we are honored to have uh in our studio who is making a difference in the world. Our guest today is Dr. Akiva Pearlman. He's a licensed clinical social worker and he's also a teacher. >> Yes. >> You give lectures to other professionals and you also are a professor in >> Wordswiler Sneer. Sneer Ishiva University >> their graduate school. Yeah. They partnered with Yeshiva University. >> Correct. And that specializes in trauma and addictions and >> those are a lot of the courses that I teach you know the clinical trauma addiction courses but they they teach everything there. >> Right. Um you are not shy for uh to have a good conversation. Correct. I appreciate raw life and living and honesty and I I don't I think we're better off not running from ourselves even though we constantly do it. But yes, I appreciate a real conversation. >> Right. So what we're going to do is we're going to take a deep dive into some serious conversations. >> I want to welcome you to the struggle. >> Thank you for having me. It's an honor. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. So before uh we are going to start talking about the subjects I want to talk about the fact that um you're also a director of a uh therapy center a wellness center in Williamsburg, New York. Correct. >> Yes. Yes. ODA ODA ODA wellness center which is very very famous and it's a uh big one. >> It's not it's not a small center. Now, what I want to talk about is there's a lot of things that need to be discussed that maybe we can help some people if we bring it up and and help people how to navigate if they have certain challenges. So, before everything, who is uh walking through those doors? Is it young people, middle-aged people, young parents? Who who is being serviced at this ODA level? >> Really, it's everybody. We have I mean, as of September, Merit Hashem will have 45 therapists. Wow. >> Um, and as of now, we have no availability. We're booked. Um, so people are working really hard. Uh, and we really have, most clinics like ours are primarily focused on children cuz those that's where there's like a comfort within the community to say, you know, here's my child. He's struggling with something. Fix him now. Yeah. >> Fix him now and then everything's going to be okay. >> Um, our clinic primarily services adults. >> Wow. Um and of course we're also servicing children, >> right? >> Um but we we work with children in the context of the broader family because that's >> but that that is a huge step in that community um for for adults to you know to remove a little bit of the stigma to come and to want to get help. This is like a step in the right direction. >> I I'm humbled by it every day. >> Wow. Um, I think that we had like a deliberate effort to challenge the stigma, do everything we possibly could to speak out against it. I think one of the earlier things that we encountered was uh we have the center and and many of these clinics, they'll have like these like dividers, these separations. People come in and >> and I actually felt that that contributed to some of the shame >> as opposed to fighting it. And I felt like and this is when we had five therapists. We didn't have 45. And I felt like in order for this to be successful, we're going to have to create a space where this is okay. >> You made it like an open floor plan. >> Open floor plan. My office is in the waiting room. So all the clients um they see me coming and going. I'm checking in. How are you doing? >> It makes a lot of sense because the people come in and they see other people. You come in like you come into a medical doctor. There's nothing wrong with that. >> Yeah. >> It is an interesting concept. >> Yeah. That's my belief. >> They used to have like two doors. One is coming in, one is coming out. you go, it's private, you know, it's but this is an interesting concept. I like it. >> Yeah. I I listen, I honor the fact that there's shame with going to therapy at times. There is because it's like indicative of there's a problem, right? >> But I think the best way we could fight it is speak about humanity in an open way so we're not running from these things. >> So let's start um with young people. Young people coming in. >> When you say young people, we're talking about children. >> No, no, we're talking about the young adult. Young adults. Yeah. couples like young couples coming in and I want to talk about this idea since you have since you're in how many years are you doing this? um going into my sixth >> sixth. >> I've been working with the kidish community for all of my career, >> right? >> Um >> and I know you write even articles. Do you have in a Yiddish newspaper you have an article that's being >> in the NIV? >> I see your thing. >> And also we have a show on Kavasu right also. Yeah, we're trying to bring these ideas to the community and >> again I I I don't look at this as I have what to share with you. >> I think it's it works both ways. The community gives me a tremendous amount too. Um, let me ask you about, you know, you've seen a lot of parents, you've seen a lot of families, you've seen, um, what about toxic parents, um, controlling parents, and what kind of effect does it have on the upbringing of the child coming out from a house like that? >> I know that you're very interested in the topic of narcissism. >> Yeah. And when you're raised by like a narcissistic parent that the whole process is about them, >> we have to remember that gives us these beautiful children >> that we get to raise so they could become their own people that we they we don't own them. >> They're not they're gifts. They're not ours. >> There's gifts that we nurture so they could then do the gift of nurturing somebody else. >> Correct. >> But let's say you're raised where that's not at all the story. You're raised with the parent is the center of attention. It's it's the beginning even of narcissism in the children, >> right? >> Because in order for them to justify their own existence, they have to be the center of the universe. >> And when that when that happens, it's it's quite devastating. Um when we don't find a way to relay over to our kids that they're number one, their own people, and we we need to listen to their thoughts, their opinions, their feedback. um then we're sending another message instead which is like you belong to me and you need to do as I say right >> um again we we need to have rules in a home you need to have expectations in a home I think that's something that's getting lost a little bit >> in modern psychology >> um it's we know expectations >> do as you please find yourself and the truth is people need some stability in their lives some degree of an expectation >> right >> they they need to be told that that there was a disappoint appointment at some point so they could think about that behavior and refine that character. >> Right? >> That doesn't mean you impose it. It means that you introduce it so they could think about themselves and how they're living. >> Right. Do you find that um in the community or outside the community that there is the pressure for parents to control the house is because they're living in a community that everything needs to be, you know, we have to fit in. Like we were saying before definitely creates an added pressure you know when there's >> when every behavior >> even if the parents are not that controlling but they have they you can't you can't go out like this or whatever you know it it come the with this beauty that living in a community and not because there's a lot of stuff that you pay a price when you leave the community. uh you're opening up your life to a whole different world and but there's a price to pay being in the community. >> Yeah. We we have to acknowledge any any ideology that is extreme and let's call it >> you know there are different levels of what it means to be a practicing Jew and is the top. It means I'm dedicating my whole being >> to my spirituality. You know Kierard who's a philosopher from the the 1600s >> you know he said that almost every meaningful decision that we make is am I doing it for myself to satisfy my my physical being or am I doing it for God >> andas sort of takes the stance of I want everything to be about doing it for God. So that's that's that's a very demanding way of living. >> But it's also it's it's but it's doing it for God will will give you individuality though if you really mean it the right way. >> Correct. >> But if you're doing it for an organization or you're doing it because you belong someplace that's where the pressure comes in. You follow what does follow what I'm saying? >> Absolutely. 100%. Let's say if you do the way is meant to be, >> you don't really care what what the neighbors say because you live with God. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like this is do it originally. >> Yeah. They they live if you live with God will give you individuality. It's when >> sometimes you use God or sometimes you know because it's sort of saying we have a business to run over here. >> Yeah. >> And this is the way it's supposed to be in order for it to be successful. Yeah, but over time, and this is always complicated, like we can't always live in a state of revolution. Is a revolution, right? It was like fighting a particular system that wasn't working. And they're saying, we need to elevate that experience. >> And those original people chose it. They actually left a different way of life, moved over and said, I'd rather serve Hashem this way. >> Right? >> Over time, all those ideas, they become wrote, they become just part of the fabric of the people. Um I think I speak to many many of the therapists that I work with who are they say we know that you learn a lot more than we do >> right because >> and I do at least a few hours a week I'm learning >> and like that's my inspiration that's where I get these things from but >> like >> this is a little bit different this is more of culture right this is not >> this is not that's what I'm saying that the pressure that parents have >> comes from uh it puts a lot of pressure on them And it puts a lot of pressure on the children. >> Yeah. I like if people have asked all the time like what do you see the most of? >> And it's really in this direction that you're talking about. It's like a form of anxiety that is connected to perfectionism. Like a just a fear of one's shadow, >> right? >> Um like I don't want to think about feeling. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. And and and that comes from the demands >> within a way of being. But but again I I needed to remind us that this is a phenomenon that happens with any intense ideology. So on the upper west side let's say where there's also an intense >> of the Joneses. >> Yeah. Imagine you have, you know, we talk about all the open-mindedness, you know, imagine you have one of those people. They're very wealthy, doing great, and you have a kid who wants to become a guitar player in a band, right? >> Or I want to I want to become a street artist, right? >> They'd go through exactly the same crisis as what's happening in Williamsburg or Bar Park or my it's a human phenomenon. It's not a specific phenomenon. >> I think that's something that that I've so enjoyed learning about that >> there's a universal human experience. We're all in this >> all the same. >> Yeah. We yet it it different environments activate different parts, focus on different parts and create different problems. So we have our problems and they have their problems. >> But we're all trying to figure it out at all times. >> So how should a person live if a person wants to live a life fulfilled, content in their own community? talking about people from the upper west side or talking about people from Williamsburg. How can a person build himself up to a point that he should live life fully >> where he is? >> I could tell you I'm I'm working on it. >> Okay. >> Um when I figure that out, we'll have that discussion. But I think we're I think the goal is to work on it, >> right? >> Um to seek more. I I don't meet too many people. I I first I've never really met people who didn't have some degree of humility or suffering in their lives. >> And I certainly don't meet too many people who are living in a constant state of bliss, >> right? >> We're like, I I've arrived at that. And I don't think we're asked to to be in that place. >> It's a work in progress. >> Yeah. The problem is we're not generally honest about things like that. We're like we we want to portray to the world that everything is wonderful. Um, and I think that's one of the reasons why I I allow myself to talk about my own human struggle in open environments because I just feel like that's a a common human experience and why are we >> why are we trying our best to make pretend like that's not there like you know anyone who wakes up every morning and feels great >> and who's like oh this and and faces the day oh this is going to be amazing. I I wake up days like that. I also wake up other days where I'm feeling lost and depressed and fearful and >> and that's the reality of life. And I think we're all doing that. >> Sure. >> You know, we just don't talk about it, >> right? And you got to work on it. You got to get up every day and work on it. >> You work on it. You work on it. There is, I believe, a place we could all arrive that's truly authentic to us, >> right? >> Within any world that we live in. >> And I I believe that. And I think our goal is to genuinely pursue that and and hope that we we could access it and and and utilize it, but also know that tomorrow's another day, right? >> And we might not feel that way, and that's okay. >> What would you say to parents who are working on themselves while raising their kids? They're not done with themselves yet, and they have to raise kids. >> But that's all of us. Yeah. That's but but the gift of a child seeing a parent who's willing to acknowledge that they need to work on themselves. The gift of that >> is wonderful. I think it's >> we're all like that. Who's arrived at a place where okay, I don't need to work on myself anymore. The day I don't need to work on myself, that's the day I expire. >> That's like my time is up. I did it. You know, >> so what you're saying is it's not a pressure. It's not something bad. It's something that you can even share with the kids. It's a beautiful concept that you can share with your kids that I'm we're doing this together. Yeah. >> I'm becoming better every day and you're becoming better every day and we're doing this. It shouldn't be something shouldn't be shouldn't have fear of how am I raising my kids while uh I have to still do work on myself >> 100%. And I think if you ask our kids >> Yeah. >> the ones that we were able to speak that way to them and they they'll tell you it was of the greatest gift. Now, I don't think you need to. Sometimes parents take this idea way too far and they kind of make their child their spouse. Like they share everything with them. We have to maintain a sense of I'm a parent >> and you're a child and it's my job to >> to raise you. >> That means I'm not going to share everything with you. >> Um, but I think when a you which child doesn't grapple at some point with at some point just like what does it all mean? we're doing the same thing every day, three times a day. It could wear on somebody in that in that in that regard. And for them to hear from a parent like this is a complicated thing. I'm working on it. I'm trying to think I'm I'm fighting my way through this. This is we're in the struggle. You know, that's the podcast. We're struggling. >> The gift we could give our children. >> That's a gift. >> I struggle. We struggle. What about the fact that um yeshiva's schools are are rejecting the kids or let's say if a kid is whatever rebellious and they're being rejected u sometimes the kids are rejected because of the parents and sometimes the the child is rejected because of the child. >> How does a child supposed to handle that? >> Well, I can tell you how they do handle it. >> Okay. >> Horrifically. >> Yeah. that there's no other way to say it when there's I just heard a story today someone was talking about how they they literally went back to their Russa who rejected them years later >> and like gave them a piece of their mind as to what that did and what that means is they hold on to that for years >> for years >> that type of rejection and and also bear in mind that very often >> the kids that are struggling in this way chances are they're already dealing with some elements of rejection >> before >> yeah when a kid is acting out. It's not arbitrary. It's not it it's not meaningless. >> They're acting out. That's their way of communicating with us. Hey, there's a problem. And it's precisely that kid that's trying to get into that school >> that is rejected. But I do want to say that I think institutions are allowed to have values and they're allowed to have their own set of expectations. And very often >> parents are wanting their kids to go to schools for themselves, not for their kids. And sometimes schools are, let's say, left with a very difficult decision of what do we do in a situation like that. So I don't live in a world where I'd say like, okay, there's no such thing as not letting a kid into a school. You have a kid who's not capable of a certain level of learning. >> Or what you're saying is the parents have to they have expectations that I would want my kid in this school, but it really doesn't belong there because of the parent himself also. Yeah. >> He's not in reality is what you're saying. >> Yeah. And they and they need it. They need it not because that's what the child needs. And that's not even necessarily good for the child. And many people would tell them that, >> but they need it because I need my child to go to this place, you know, I need a kid in Alexander. >> That's where I need my kid to go because that reflects well on me >> without necessarily asking like would my kid do well in such an environment, >> right? >> You know, and >> I think thank God there's enough different types of schools that should in theory be able to accommodate. And we need schools for kids who are struggling and we need schools for kids who are Mitsuyanim. We do. >> And and I was lucky to go to a school that had both in the same class. >> But I I I wonder how it impacted the other kids. You know, I we had kids in my class that, you know, were were in keeping Shabas and we had kids that were finishing shas and they were all in this. It was a very unique environment >> and uh but it very rarely lasts. It doesn't exist for very long, you know. So, I think we need many different environments. But the devastation of that rejection >> is beyond. I had a kabad uh mak was here and he was telling me that I think that told him that um if you have to reject somebody from school or did something that you know or whatever you have to you can't keep hold you better make sure that kid has way to go. >> Yeah. >> Don't just throw him out and just leave him on the street. >> Not only that take him there. Take him there. Drive get in your car. Yeah. Make sure that that kid has a place not by you someplace else but just don't just don't reject like that because that that's going to affect the children to no to no end. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know some beautiful stories of people who were not appropriate for a certain environment and it was dealt with beautifully. Now I know many many more stories that are horrific and they were just outright rejected and uh and those that's terrible. But I know people have been through that experience and it was okay. They're still in touch with the people who kicked them out >> because they were it was done with dignity. And >> I I one one special man he he literally got in a car and drove to Florida to speak to the rashiva who didn't want to get this kid in. And the rasha led him in because he took that he literally got in his car and drove. >> I mean, can you imagine? You're that kid who hears that yes, I'm getting kicked out and I'm in New York, but I also know that the person kicking me out got in his car and drove to Florida >> to speak to the Rashiva to get me in >> to get me into school. >> He's more in touch with the guy who kicked him out than he is with the person who accepted him. >> Correct. Amazing. Amazing stuff. Do you deal with the rebellious teens also? >> Yeah, for for absolutely. You know, I again we have some wonderful organizations in our community that deals with them, >> right? Yeah. But do you feel that when when you see a kid like that, is he is he are they searching for a deeper meaning these kids or is just they want they want to they want to be a free spirit? >> I I don't I I don't think it's either if you ask me. I I think that very sensitive souls, which often what these kids are, um they're obviously searching for something, but I don't think they're consciously aware of that search. >> I think that is their expression of the pain that they're in. Mhm. >> That's just what's happening. >> They're letting you know that they're hurting, >> right? >> And and almost always that's the case. A rebellious child, it's not like a natural order. It happens when there's what to rebel against and what to be angry about or what to be heard about. >> Um and I again, I've never met a kid who was like rebellious in that way, who didn't have a story to tell, >> right? >> You know, so I I don't think they're consciously searching for something. Um but underneath it all is that search and we need to find a way to meet them there too sometimes. >> Right now as far as bullying in school, children who are being bullied or the bullers um do you find that bullying if a child comes to school like that is it a result of what is going on in his in the home >> that the child is bullying another? >> Yeah. Well, we know that we know that bullying and and anger or aggression is a what we call a learned behavior, >> right? >> It's not something that is like natural to the fabric of a person. So, almost always they're sort of >> playing out what they know or what they've seen. And when I say what they know and seen, it means >> we're all faced with many different situations. Yeah. >> Um and we see our parents responding to them. So if we learn that this is the response to this experience that I'm in, that's a learned behavior. We just sort of embody that and it becomes the way that we live. >> So what I'm hearing from you is to to uh solve the bullying problem is is to focus on the child who is bullying and figure out what's going on with this child at home. >> It's one of the ways I think we also need to create like create protective environments. I think even though of course if a person's bullying somebody else, they're obviously carrying their own pain, right? >> And that's why they're doing that, right? >> But I also think like that doesn't give them the right to hurt another person. And we it's a it's a real point, by the way, because we talk a lot about trauma in the world. And >> because a person has suffered, it doesn't necessarily give them the right to cause suffering to another. >> And yes, we could help them understand it like this is why you're causing that suffering, but the objective is to find a way to not do that. Right. >> And so we we're ultimately creating a next generation that is raised in a different set of environments. >> Right now uh as far as um teachers and malam with students, how important is it to have a close relationship? They should understand that this is this is this is lives are on the line over here. I think people learn the best when they're touched by the person who's teaching them things. But I would imagine today the people that you could learn from are people that you possibly feel seen by. >> Correct. >> And things like that. So >> there's no question that and they did this with with studies with uh cheating on tests >> um and where they'd evaluate your likelihood of cheating based on the relationship you have with that person. And what time and again what these studies show is that if you like the person, you're much less likely to cheat. >> True. >> And so cheating you think is like just selferving. >> You just want to win. Yeah. >> I just want to do have the better grade than the guy next to me. But turns out it's not really the case. >> But but again I I think those ideas what you're saying right now haven't necessarily intergenerationally been passed down that that is the most critical thing. I think it's emerging today. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. But but I think they're learning it a little bit from the outside, not necessarily from the inside. And to me, real change comes from the inside, not the outside. >> And I I I need to stay humble in that way. Like I could do everything I possibly can, >> but I can never touch what one RV could do within the community. It'll be much more significant than anything I could do. Now in teachers and uh rabbies and shashivas have to I mean I don't know if this is a skill that you can learn but the sensitivity the sensitivity part >> of course you could learn it >> I mean but life will teach you that >> if you don't have it in you >> yeah if you weren't let's say treated sensitively or no one told you that that's a value then it becomes like what are you talking about right >> and uh I've sat like the last few years there's a wonderful program in Williamsburg >> um called vaharav and I sat together with like their their teachers, their we sit together once a week and learn about some of these ideas and and it's a wonderful experience to have because many of many are describing like we don't hear this on a regular basis, right? that's not what we've been told and >> but I think today it's being heard but often from other other sources >> from outside >> and that to me is a problem like we should hear these things from the inside. >> Right. >> Um and and I and I and we are but we need the voice to get louder I imagine. >> Right. Right. Now let's talk about what your specialty is. I want to talk about trauma. What is trauma? That's the question. >> Yeah. The fundamentals of trauma. Trauma is an experience largely where you're either completely uh treated poorly and dishonored and disrespected uh abused not not taken care of as a person. You were treated as an object. >> Even something little like disrespect, even something like that could be trauma. >> Here's a problem and it's a different discussion. I think that we've abused the term trauma. Okay? like trauma at this point has become a catch-all phrase for any type of discomfort. And to me, there are people who've been deeply deeply traumatized and they they like they can wear that title with a badge of honor. And then you have those that have hurt. We all hurt. >> Yeah. >> Um that is sort of making its way into that into that reality as well. But trauma, the way I fundamentally understand it is what it does to us, not necessarily what we went through, >> right? how it shapes our perception of the world and ourselves. >> Right? So, >> so the actual trauma, let's call it the actual um that that that abuse or whatever is happening that made it into a trauma. It's a car accident or whatever it was a trauma. The question is what do you do with that? Are you do you have somebody to sit down with and okay this is what happened? Someone sees you, someone hears you, someone feels you. So there again when it comes to treatment let's say what you were talking about with a car accident let's say your life is great you get into a car accident and you get like flashbacks from that experience >> I experienced this recently and I was it was it was interesting because knowing things and then going through it you get to observe it >> right >> so I was in uh where I lived there's a wonderful shul over there and and they have a tent on the outside and when we were having the kdish on chabas afternoon the whole tent collapsed the tree fell on top and it actually knocked me like at the bot the the the top of my neck. >> Thank God it didn't hit me directly in my head. I don't know what would have happened, but it knocked me out. >> I fell to the floor. >> And that's what you call like a a a traumatic moment. You know, no one did anything wrong. It was an act of God. >> Um but something happened that moment and I I found myself like for a few days having like flashbacks of that and my body was freezing. It's a real reality. And the way we understand trauma, it impacts a lot of things, but but it certainly impacts our body. It impacts our visceral response. And we somehow need to find a way to let that go in order for us to to begin to move forward. >> The the trauma that I'm speaking about is not necessarily the PTSD. It's more the ongoing pervasive. you're raised in an environment where you're just treated like an object or you're not valued as a person or you're being told on a regular basis that you're horrific or >> or even in subtle ways um where you're raised by a narcissist parent >> um who the whole world >> good enough. >> Yeah. You're just you. So the way you internalize that is that you start seeing the world through that lens that's been given over to you and you live with certain beliefs about yourself that I'm fundamentally bad. there's something fundamentally flawed. Um, if anyone were to really really know the person I am, they would outright reject me. >> So, you live in a world where you're on the outside of it and almost always on the outside in a negative way. Um, so that type of work is like really making your way through that experience and understanding the factors that contributed to that that understanding that you're living with. And it's shocking for people very often like they'll they'll say like, "Well, it's because I went through something that was bad that I feel this way as opposed to me being bad." >> Right? >> You know, there's certain lines you don't want to hear in therapy, >> right? >> You know, in sexual abuse, you almost never want to hear, "Well, >> I it wasn't the perpetrator's fault. It was my fault cuz I went there in the first place and I returned many times without understanding >> that." That's fundamental. That's what sexual abuse is. is that they mess with your head in a way that you return and they make you feel responsible for it. >> Um, so that person lives in a world of like I'm the issue, >> right? >> And we need to really help reconstruct all of that and help them find some freedom. >> So the work is to unwire that brain >> well >> from the trauma. >> Well, it's it's >> or rewire >> on some level there's like rewiring certain perceptions, but I think it's also restanding or reconceptualizing the narrative of your life. right? >> This person looks in the mirror and sees a monster, >> right? >> And helping them understand why they see a monster. What contributed to that reality? Which again, I think therapy is criticized for this a lot because fund fundamentally what I'm saying is that if someone's living in this very dysfunctional, traumatized way, we kind of need to go back and make sense of how they got there. And almost always it's going to make its way back to some parent narrative >> and how they were treated. And people say like, "Oh, therapy is terrible." because they do that. Um, and I think the point that they need to remember with that criticism is that that is a stage. It's not the endgame. >> The goal is to get to a place where you could say >> that unless unless a parent is evil, which almost never is the case, >> where you could say, listen, I know that I'm flawed as a person. I'm trying my best and I'm still hurting my kids. >> And my parents also got to that place where where they were trying their best. They didn't know. and that contributed to a lot of my pain. >> That's in theory a goal. We want to get to a place where we could have compassion and empathy for ourselves and for others in our lives, >> right? >> Um but it's a stage. You need to go through the stage. Sometimes people get worse at the beginning stages of therapy in order for them to get better. >> Um because they're sort of shedding a lot of this stuff, a lot of the needs, the necessities. I need to do this to be okay. >> Right. You were mentioning before that in during the trauma you keep on going back. Um that is called trauma bonding, right? >> Well, you well I was talking about PTSD, right? Traumatic >> bonding going back to but trauma bonding means going back to a person >> going back to a scenario going back to a person that precisely the thing that caused that >> caused that problem. So what is trauma bonding? Why would a person want to do that? And what is the difference from real love to trauma bonding? Because that person will tell themselves that I really love that person. >> Yeah. Their feelings in that moment, the sensations they have would likely mimic >> during the trauma. >> Yeah. >> And that person would tell themselves that this is real love. He goes back. >> But there is a huge difference. It's trauma bonding. >> Correct. >> Why is that so powerful? The trauma bonding. What is what what is what is going on in a person's brain? >> It's almost like uh I don't know. Do you have like a favorite food? A food that provides you with comfort, gives you something a warm feeling. >> I know for myself, we were sitting Shiva for my mother and I was it was like 2:00 in the morning. I'm sitting in the kitchen with a few of my siblings and one one of my brothers asked the question. He said like this is your last final meal. What is it going to be? What was amazing is that there the other three of us in the conversation at that moment and we all said fish stickicks and mashed potatoes. >> That was your favorite? >> Well, that was that was like a comfort food. >> Yeah. The comfort food that reminds me Yeah. From >> my mother my mother was a therapist and uh and she had her office in the house itself and we would have this uh little toaster in the kitchen and we weren't allowed to go into the kitchen when she was in therapy >> because they would hear and noise. And so we would try to like put all the fish stickicks in the toaster oven and time it exactly. You get there before the ding >> cuz you know if that ding went off you're like we're in trouble. So I think even a part of that contributed to the story of the the comfort that one gets >> and a part of what happens to an individual when they're going through something that they can't quite understand, right? >> Is there's a need to revisit an experience that that ultimately at some point gives them comfort, right? because it's familiar and they could return to that. We see that a lot with victims of of sexual abuse. >> That's what I'm saying. It's fascinating because here the victim knows it's wrong. >> Sure. >> We've all been through a lot. >> But all those experiences when we could tolerate them, there are teachers. There are greatest teachers. Some of the greatest teachers I've ever had have been the pain that I feel in my heart. >> It's taught me things about life. Right now, here is where the people you they throw around the word attachment. >> Yeah. >> Attachment is what? Attachment is to other human beings. >> Well, attachment starts by what we're given. Attachment is essentially a gift. Your parents either give it to you or they withhold it from you. >> Right. So now, is attachment a good thing? Oh, >> absolutely. So, let's talk about that. >> Positive. Yeah, let's talk about it. >> So, I always loved Bulby. Bulby was one of the original researchers on attachment and he he always described an analogy where he said like there are two ways for a parent to look at a child and we were talking about this a little bit before but either you look at that child and you see through their eyes you get straight to their nama >> right >> and you you almost tell yourself like thank you Hashem for giving me such a child and I want you get curious about the child I wonder what you'll be like what you're going to have to face in your life what your characteristics are but you see them as outside of you >> so when you're raising a child in that way as Bulby talks about the child absorbs the feeling that you're giving over to them, they become that feeling. So when they have to face uncertainty, they have to go on a job interview, there's like an internal belief that was given to them to some degree as a gift that even if this doesn't go well, you're still okay or even if this is hard, you have what it takes to withstand it. It's internalized, >> right? And then the other way Bulby describes, you look at that child and instead of seeing through the eyes into their soul, you see their eyes as a reflection. Almost like a mirror, you look at yourself and instead of saying, "I wonder what you're going to be," you say, "I wonder how you're going to represent me in the world." And I wonder how you're going to make me look good or you're going to make me look bad. That is also internalized. And think about how disorienting that is for a person that their whole identity becomes about what they do >> uh what their achievements might be as opposed to who they are fundamentally >> right >> and that plays out throughout life which is fascinating when you look at the research of attachment it often is formed the first year of life >> which means you don't even have an awareness you don't even know that it's happening but the correlational studies that they have with that that speak about what happens 20 years later when that person is imagine two people dating You have one person there's a sense of security and a knowing uh and a feeling of I'm valuable and another person who's walking around uncertain of their own shadow >> right >> and consider how those two people walk into a marriage and that is formed early early stages of life >> and that plays out in all relationships so so anxious attachment will play out an anxious way fearful and you know codependent so to speak um I I I need you to make me feel whole >> right >> you know as opposed to >> Eric Eric from talks about this, you know, the the two way immature love versus mature love, >> right? >> Immature love is if I don't have you, I'm nothing, >> which is another definition of codependency. >> And mature love is I have a self, you have a self, and we choose to join one another in communion. >> And that's important to us. And we see that as a value, but yourself is not coming through the other. It's coming through your own being and the way that you've lived. And then you get to share that with another. It's a very different story. And that's all an attachment story. >> It's really what it is, >> right? How close is attachment to addiction? >> Well, you'll almost always find people who are addicts um have >> this attachment. Uh >> yeah. Yeah. It's a when when it's interesting when you go to let's say a 12step meeting. >> Yeah. >> And you ask the people like what what what's the felt sense? What's the fundamental experience in there? They'll describe even when they talk about their drugs. I'll share a story. I had my one of my first clients that was like a heavy heavy drug addict. He was using heroin at the time. >> And uh special guy. He was homeless and uh >> lots of good stories I could tell about him. >> But I remember asking him because I didn't I I read in the textbooks what heroin was like. And I knew that all the all the catchphrases, heroin feels better than anything else in the world and it's great. And I but I I want I was curious about it. And I asked the guy, "Can you describe to me the feeling, the sensation you got when you take that needle, you stick it into your you mainline it and straight to your brain?" >> And I was thinking, he would tell me about the pleasure and the euphoria and the joy and the calm. >> His response to me was, "When I take heroin, I feel as if the world is holding me. >> I feel contained. I feel love." Now, when you know this guy's story and the absence of love that he's had and the the attachment deficiencies that he's lived with, that statement makes a lot of sense. >> So, on some level, on some level, drug use is like an attachment kind of disorder. I don't I don't get the warmth from anything else. >> This is the thing that gives me that comfort >> and that's where it starts. And then we need to find ways to to get that in other healthier means as opposed to because the drug will never really satisfy that. You get the sensation, >> but it won't it won't fix or cure anything. >> It's a temporary fix. >> Yeah. >> And why do you think so many people you probably heard this from a lot of people that they're in relationships and which were toxic and this were not good for them and they're like, "Oh, I didn't realize it till years later." The the way I interpret that statement is I I didn't see myself as valuable enough to kind of fight the way I was being treated. I think they're very well aware that they're not being treated well. >> I think people live with people >> that makes a lot of sense. Again, it's codependency. >> Yeah. Yeah. They >> It's rooted in codependency what you just said. >> Yeah. I think on some level they believe that they deserve that behavior. And so long as you believe you deserve it, you don't question it, >> right? But this is what I'm supposed to get. And if someone treated me well, I wouldn't quite know what to do with that. And you see that all the time. You see people who were raised like in very tough environments and then they're only attracted to people who are treating them poorly. They're like, "What is going on?" Why would you fantasize about something different? But that's where their love comes from, right? >> And it's simply because they that's what they know and that's what they expect to be treated as, >> right? So let's say in the relationship or in the marriage, how does abuse look like? Because you can hear from people who are saying, "Listen, everyone is fighting. Everyone's crazy. I'm crazy. You're crazy. Everybody makes it work. Where does a person know that this is this is abuse? >> Abuse is characterized as a power differential. that someone who's of greater power is harming a person of lesser to some degree. >> That's that that's brilliant because what you're saying is let me tell you if I hear you correctly what you're saying is that in a relationship it has to be level. >> Yes. Yes. And yet and when it's level and you disagree, you could hear the other side. >> Correct. >> When it's like this, you're not even entitled to share a voice. And that's really where what abuse is about, where it comes from. That's where abuse and control comes in. >> Yeah. Because every relationship has some degree of discord and disagreement and and that's okay. That's how we grow up. You know, you >> you we you know, people want to avoid those things their whole lives. But then how do you expect to mature? You mature through conflict and >> and discord. You know, it's one of the things they say about addiction that like whenever the person started the drug use, that's the developmental stage that they're going to be at. And and I I see that all the time that if someone started when they were 15 and now they're 25 but they've been using the whole time then often psychologically it's like you're kind of talking to a 15y old >> right >> and and the way I understand that is we develop we become 25 from 15 by facing challenging moments resolving them working through them and maturing as a result but if let's say you're high most of the time >> you're avoiding all that process >> so when when there's conflict you just avoid quit it. I've met with people who said, >> "I've never fight with my spouse." And then when you really dig and you listen, it's like, "Oh, you're not fighting because you're stoned." >> Yeah. You're not here. >> Yeah. I just want to throw in I think there's too many people smoking marijuana these days. >> Yeah. >> I I am with you. >> It's terrible. >> I think it's a terrible thing. People laugh at me when I say it. >> I don't think marijuana is terrible. I think there are way too many people using so much more. >> What's behind it? You see >> what's behind the problem? Where's the running away from? >> I think that's a sign of our times. We're running. >> We're running. We don't >> This is one of the ways that we run. >> Yeah. We don't want to face it. And that's what I was going to ask you. How does someone develop an addiction? There's a kid 13, 14, 15, 16 years old. >> All of a sudden, he's an addict. 20 years old, he's an addict. A 35 year old is an addict. How does someone develop an an addiction? How does he become an addict? What must happen? >> Yeah. Well, to me, addiction is largely a symptom. It's not the problem itself. >> Correct. >> So, you become an addict by suffering enough and finding one day finding relief >> in a behavior or or a drug >> that gives you some comfort for for the moment. That's how you become an addict. But you don't become an addict when I always struggle with like you see in Mishbah magazine or ami which are wonderful publications >> but when sometimes they'll describe very complex phenomenon a very simple form like oh this kid was great top bucker right >> and then one shabas he was left with an open phone that wasn't filtered and by the time Sunday hit >> full out sex addict and I'm like come on >> that's just not the story now exposure is complicated >> but that's just not the storyense Cuz a guy who's healthy enough, balanced enough could also look at the other side. He could also say, even let's say with marijuana, you know, he could say, "This feels good." But I also understand that there are other things that come along with it, so I need to be careful with it. >> And an addict won't ever consider that. An addict will be like, "This feels good. When can I feel good again?" >> Correct. >> Cuz I'm feeling like garbage all the time. >> So what's your message for young people? We're going through a hard time. This is what life is all about. Everybody's going through hard times, but not to fall in to what you see, to what you're dealing with. What would you tell this little kid? How should he channel his uh his difficulties and his challenges to not fall down that that pit? >> It's complicated reality. Um these are things we honor too. We honor that type of suffering. I the to me we all need good role models in our lives. We need people that we could be honest with and share ourselves with. And that would be like my greatest recommendation. Find someone that you could trust, >> right? >> And almost always when you speak to people who suffered that way, there's no one that they there's no one that they feel like they could trust. That's the world that they live in. >> What you're saying is that even if you can't find your parent or your mother, find someone else. >> Find someone. Find a rebby, >> find a mentor, find that you could share what it is that's going on. Help help develop the language of what's happening on the inside >> and express that. And and it's okay. >> It's okay. We struggle. We're we're imperfect people, >> right? >> And and the goal is to get a little bit better, >> right? Now, also I was going to ask you about if a person is a good person by nature. Good person wants to do good. He wants to make a difference but he finds himself u being a people pleaser. He finds himself uh pleasing everybody and saying yes to everything. >> Where can he find a balance between being a good person to running around for validation and to being a people pleaser? >> I think I think you're describing the pathology of most therapists I know. >> Okay. >> Where there is an element of codependency that exists in almost all therapists. >> Wow. Um, and it makes sense, meaning they spend their entire lives listening to other people's struggles and that's where they get their satisfaction from, >> right? >> That's precisely the definition of codependency. At ODA, we do these big trainings every year and we brought in one of the the foremost experts in trauma. Her name is Marilyn Murray >> and and she she does all these different exercises with us, something called like a trauma egg where you really visit everything >> and basically she arrives at the conclusion with almost all therapists in the room. Codependency, codependency, codependency. >> Wow. >> And I remember sharing at the end where I acknowledge I said listen I I have some codependent elements in me. >> Um I I love sitting with people who are struggling and listening to them and honoring their voice in that moment. it does something for me as a person >> and I'd be lying if I'd say it didn't if it if it didn't. >> But I was sharing at the end I said like I I I acknowledge my codependency but I would still choose it. >> I would still do it because it's special, >> right? >> And inherently to listen to another is a meaningful thing. But I think what you're describing is a person who hasn't developed enough of a self to be able to say no. where I know where I begin and I know where I end and I know where I'm good and I know where I'm bad and I could differentiate between those things, >> right? >> Um, and that that's a that's a lot of work for a person to do. Um, but codependency and fundamentally on developmental stages, it sort of comes from this phenomenon we're talking about that you weren't you needed to fundamentally take care of others and that's how you secured your own love that by caring for another. Alice Miller in the drama of the gifted child talks about this a lot where she said like you were raised by a somewhat insecure person who couldn't acknowledge it. So they needed you to be certain way for them in order in in in order for them to feel okay. And then a part of your identity becomes for me to feel okay. I need to somehow take care of others. >> And the drama of the gifted child is a book written about therapists that that they're calling them codependents, >> right? Right. And I think it's I think we're probably better off acknowledging some of our shortcomings and that's one of them. >> Now, what I'm hearing from you is that to um to heal codependency, the answer is self-esteem. >> Yeah. >> Which means that you have to grow to a certain level that you have to feel good in being okay with saying no. with having boundaries and that is really the solution for codependency. >> The only way you could do that is with a self-esteem >> is building building yourself up. >> Yeah. Because if if in your mind if I say no to this person then I'm bad in their eyes or I'm disappointing them in some way. You can't tolerate that. >> But if there's a self in there, right, >> then you could say, "Yes, I may be disappointing another, but I also know that that's not for me, right? >> And that's okay. But that requires a degree of self." >> Now, how here's the million-dollar question. For someone who's is 20 years a codependent, >> how is he building his self-esteem? >> Painfully, one tiny step at a time. One, I mean, experientially by learning to set some of those boundaries. But I think even more than externally setting boundaries, it's internally going through that very complex deep process of how did I end up this way and then who am I for real, >> right? And starting to ask those questions are wonderful for a person, but they're very disorienting for a codependent. >> It's excruciating. >> Yeah. Yeah. I embrace my codependency, right? >> I challenge it and I try to find those those boundaries, but I also know that that's >> likely going to remain a part of me to some degree. >> Now, the 12step program that you're very familiar with because you're dealing with all these traumas and addictions. >> Sure. >> There is a lot of spirituality in there. a lot of God, a lot of surrender, and a lot of powerlessness. >> Now, what's your opinion as far as bringing in this to help the codependent coupled up with these questions that you were saying before, knowing that, you know, for us, we're we believe that we are, we're part of the we are not here to serve anybody else. We are here to serve the and it gives you a feeling of yourself. If you connect to the you know you have a mission we're here for a very short period of time. >> How is that part of the 12step program helping a codependent build their self-esteem? >> You're saying how would that how would that actually work? >> I the the idea of first of all all those ideas that you're describing are very present in those rooms you know talking about God. And I think one thing we need to know, a codependent or an addict, I'm not it's hard to say that they can't serve Hashem, but they're serving another God. >> The codependent the addicts >> 100%. >> That is so true. >> They they they're understanding, their relationship with Hashem is very different. It's and I I don't really believe that you could fundamentally be like a from person. I'm not talking about behavior. I'm talking about essentially 100% >> and at the very same time be an addict. >> They don't they don't they don't work well together. You need to either decide >> is my God the thing that provides me with some degree of security and comfort or is my God something that is beyond me that I need to work towards. >> So you're saying something very profound because the 12step program is is is is healing the addict by saying by by doing what you just described by accepting God. Yeah. >> To be God. >> And by the way, the beginning of the 12 states. Yeah. It's not like it doesn't >> No, it's not in the back. It's the first >> That's where you start. That's where you start. >> You start by saying on some level, you're saying like, I need to stop serving a different God. I need to stop serving myself. >> Wow. >> And I need to humble myself to a degree where I'm actually serving God. And that's a it's a complicated journey because many of these people never serve God. >> Of course not. >> Now, they put on fill in every day. They did everything that they did, but they never they're not but they didn't. You know, to really serve God, you have to let go of your ego. You have to allow yourself to see something that's beyond you. You know, encounter the ineffable, but you you can't be at the center of that. God's at the center of that. And we're trying to get closer to that center. >> Right. >> Now, let me ask you something. For a person who is a let's say a codependent is in a relationship in a in a relationship with in a toxic relation with a narcissist or attachment issues in the books of you know when it comes to narcissism no contact is a huge huge step because >> like you need a break off >> break off cut him off like like no tomorrow >> because the codependent is so sensitive it takes over such a sponge takes over energy from another person that if you would even put an eye there, you would smell that place, you would be back right where you are just like an addict. So what do you think about no contact because it's very very complicated especially when it comes to our community m there is so many things involved family close family what do you think about no contact >> I struggle with it a great deal I think there's very limited humility in no contact as a principle I understand where it comes from there are some people and this is where I create the line >> if you're actively being hurt today >> correct then you have a right to protect yourself from being hurt today. But to cut off contact because I was hurt in the past and that say that wasn't necessarily dealt with, it's a very different story. I think that's much more self- serving than anything else. >> I understand the pain that people feel that they feel like, okay, but I'm speaking ideologically. Ideologically, I don't think that breaking off contact um ultimately elevates a person to a place where they feel healthier, more integrated, more flexible. I think they feel relief, but I think there are many ways to feel relief. Meaning, like you're describing, and it's true. It's an accurate description. A codependent, >> they'll sniff out a look well even before you even made it. They'll notice it before and they'll start apologizing before they were even an accusation. Right? >> That's how they live fundamentally. And and there are ways to to build that part of ourselves to understand what it's about, where it's coming from, and develop it. Sometimes sometimes there needs to be a period of time where you say, "Okay, I can't it's not possible for me to develop this in the presence of another." Um, but I think I happen to think that the the therapy world um has contributed to this problem a great deal. Like the self became the most important thing in the world. But we have to remember that a lot of those ideas are coming from like values like western values which again we all live with but western values that the self is the most important thing in the world. I think one of the most beautiful parts of our community is that we understand that being a part of something bigger than you >> is really inherently valuable >> right >> and that's what connects you to others. But the the healing process really of no contact is what like you said while the abuse is going on and while you're on your journey of healing then sometimes you need to do no contact but you have to come to the level to be indifferent. You have to come to the level that you forgive yourself to a point that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You can you can show up. You can not show it to an indifferent type of point >> but it's like an addict. It's a full-time uh lifetime struggle not to fall back. >> Yeah. >> So, you have to have your antennas up. >> Yeah. And I want I want to throw in another idea. >> When a child is raised in an environment where their parents have cut off others, that reality becomes a lot stronger for them. Mhm. >> It's like when when a parent a child is raised statistically when a when a parent is a child is raised in a divorced home >> even though every one of those children are promising themselves my life is never going to be like this. We also know statistically they're more likely to get divorced themselves >> because they've been introduced to a reality an internal reality that's different than the people around them. Wow. >> So there's it requires a degree of humility when you say listen I've been hurt and I need to acknowledge that hurt and I need to express that hurt and I could even ask for some acknowledgement back which would be such a gift instead of fighting this. So many parents are like it becomes like an ideological war. Listen to your child. Your child was hurt by you. It's okay. I I have with with all the good intentions both of us in this room I imagine both of us we love our kids. I live with the reality that with all that love in the world, I'm going to miss something. >> And in some way there's going to be some element of a wound >> and and I hope I have the opportunity one day to acknowledge that and say, "I missed something." And there's humility to that. >> And I think that when you you're you're sending a message of this person hurt me and I'm perfect. I got it all better. >> Right? >> Ask yourself, could your child ever express any pain towards you or or could they ever express that to you? And I think that when we show greater things, we go beyond ourselves, which is the ultimate. And we say, "Yes, I am carrying that pain." And I understand and I understand also that they were flawed and I'm also flawed. And that's okay. So let's let's try our best as opposed to like I got it right, they got it wrong. I'm going to live on my side of the street, they're going to live. There's there's no humility in that idea. Now, sometimes it's necessary. You need to get out of something for a period of time, right? But I think ideologically the the concept related to like cutting off is such it's a toxic concept. It lacks humility. >> So what you're saying is any action that a person does was modeled to him at a younger age that that that's what he's doing. >> Yeah. Uh it becomes a greater reality. A child raised in a home where their parents cut off their own parents >> is there's a much greater likelihood that those children will cut off the exact parents >> that they cut off their own >> like the the statistically that's the case. >> It is amazing stuff. >> It's a terrible phenomenon. >> Amazing stuff. >> But sometimes we need I just want to say this. >> Yeah. Yeah. Listen every general statements. I mean every sometimes there are families who are like in such bad shape that that you know it'll put you into a very low dark place >> and sometimes you know uh yeah we needed a bunch we need a lot of ko you know >> we do let me ask you one final question who is your role model >> I have I have many role models >> okay >> um starting from and and and again many of these role models exist in different ways Yeah, >> I I don't live in a world where like I'm really idealizing people. This is the perfect person, >> but lots of people that I learned from. Um I was raised in a in in a home that was filled with with giving and service and tick like that was a a premise. Now it was also complicated. It wasn't a simple home and there was I carry a lot of pain from my home too. >> But there were ideas and concepts and ways of being that I deeply appreciated. I have some you've met one of my brothers Donnie >> amazing guy >> amazing human being and and literally today I with my sister Kv she came to the conference she's also doing some of this work today >> just like I feel humbled in her presence I have I have my rebi Rabbi center who's just like a fundamental person in my life >> um revel someone that I've learned a great deal from and I feel just very cherished in his presence >> um so I have a lot of people that I continue to learn from but the truth is I learned so much from my kids, from my clients. I think when we're looking to learn from people, then we we find lots of role models. >> That is amazing stuff. Dr. Aka Pearlman, I want to thank you. I want to thank you for doing what you're doing. I want to thank you for bringing light into dark places. What you're doing is a act of Hashem. You're not only talking about the struggle, you're sitting with the struggle. You're sitting with these people and you're holding their hands and you're getting them through hard times. It's unbelievable stuff. The should give you >> the should give you clarity. You should keep on doing what you're doing and making the world a better place. >> Thank you, brother. Thank you. It's a dear honor to be here and it's very clear to me >> that you're you're clearly seeking a message of love and embrace and growth and acceptance and shall continue to give you strength to do what you do. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. >> Thank you.