The Struggle Podcast EP19- Stephen Friedman - Certified S*x Addiction Therapist

breaking the silence about a hidden topic especially in the Orthodox community were coming to me this particular struggle it's accessible it's affordable and it's anonymous and just because I'm a hero coming back from you know rehab all well now doesn't mean that my spouse is not still highly affected it's not the spouse's fault I like to say that if you want good self-esteem you do esteemable acts. If you know if you're not feeling close to God, you have to ask yourself who moved because God didn't move away, right? Relationships can be repaired. We look back but don't stare. What would you say to a person who feels that his life spiral out of control? Okay. This morning um what we are going to do um we are going to be breaking the silence um about a hidden topic. A hidden topic that uh is is largely misunderstood or stigmatized. Um and behind this behavior there is always um deeper pain that we're dealing with and that is the reason for this behavior. And there's always a search for connection and that is the reason um for this topic. This is uh the topic of sex addiction. The topic that we want to discuss is not about sex. I want to discuss is about pain and about how to recover from this uh problem that people have. So, uh, we have here Steven Freriedman, a therapist, a specialist in sex addiction, and, um, we want to welcome you. Welcome to the struggle. Thank you, Joe. It's uh it's my pleasure to be here and thanks for for inviting me and everything that you just mentioned is um right on in terms of uh the history of how we deal with addictions in general, sex addiction in particular and also in terms of the origins of addictions and sex addiction in particular in terms of attachment uh in terms of pain um etc. So I'm really happy that you're bringing this to the public. I will say that um over the years and I began decades ago in this work and actually got I I was an addiction specialist in general and became um uh professionally uh certified in sex addiction because people were coming and presenting with this problem. surprisingly at first uh but as more and more uh people especially in the Orthodox community were coming to me um with this particular struggle as your podcast is named. They uh I I realized that this was a specific subset of addiction and needed to be understood and and worked on specifically. Um so I did what I could in order to become um expert in this area. It is less I I'll say that when I started it was certainly underground and certainly um uh not spoken about and maybe even denied by aspect by um aspects of the community. uh but today I think it's more widely accepted as a uh mental health issue and not as a moral or ethical issue because that's what it is right uh and that comes with a lot of shame because people were labeling it as a moral issue exactly uh and people still uh even even even uh I will say non-religious people still feel um uh ashamed aim uh at this at the at the way the addiction manifests itself in their lives. Um that has to do with society. It has to do with uh um appropriate uh moral um issues that that are present um and and I'll explain just for a moment if I may that sometimes the behavior may seem you know to be unethical, right? But that's true for all addictions. Um, and we confuse the the fact that we that a person has an addiction with being u with having a moral and ethical problem when in fact it's just the manifestation of the addiction that may be problematic. But the addiction itself is about mental health like any other addiction. Exactly. Yeah. Now, um why do you think that um it's so rampant in the Orthodox community more than in the regular? So, that's an excellent question and the truth is I don't think it's more rampant in the Orthodox community. I think it is as um prominent in the Orthodox community as it is in many other communities. Don't forget I I was a SESAT, a certified sex addiction therapist, which is a group uh of certified therapists around the world, hundreds of us, thousand maybe um and we communicate with each other. And um only a very small fraction are Orthodox Jews, right? Um so you can see that it is a worldwide problem. Uh it's it covers it crosses many many uh um cohorts of uh of of uh communities. Um but um it is it it is I would say one of the addictions of choice if I can put it that way in the orthodox community because we don't have the kind of exposure or access to some of the other addictions like drugs and substances etc. I mean we we do if you really look for it you'll find it you'll find it but this is something that is first of all um prominent today mostly due to the advent of broadband of uh broadband um the internet um which I'm not going to discuss you know the ethics of broadband but I will say that you know when it became um much easier to access um pornography and uh other websites that uh that enable this addiction to really take off that it it flourished. One guru of ours calls it you know tsunami right of uh problems that that occurred in this way. You use the word attachment a lot and you seem to think that this is the root of the problem of addiction. Um explain a little bit what you mean by attachment and who is attached to who and what is what is really going on. So attachment is a topic in and of itself. Uh there are attachment styles that are very well known and recorded. You can read all about that if you look if you Google attachment styles. Is it different than connection and codependency or it's all the same? So you're um you're bringing up um a good topic that would require a number of podcasts I think for us to investigate. But you know, one one of the uh old gur gurus of of sex addiction, you know, calls calls it a compensatory response to a failure to bond. Meaning that that we look towards sex sometimes or the arousal of sex um as a component of bonding that was missed in childhood. In other words, while while uh and by the way, I want to make it uh I want to differentiate uh this is me, by the way. Uh you'll get controversial uh um ideas about this, but I want to differentiate pornography addiction from actual sex addiction, right? Is there some Oh, there's a difference between the two, right? So, because Yeah, explain what that means. Well, I mean, practically speaking, there's a huge difference. uh sex addiction and it usually involves another person, right? It's a physical thing. It's a physical act. It uh it can manifest in many different ways. Um but it usually has to do with um again a simulation of attachment uh to another person. Although of course there's no attachment really there uh when you're acting in an obsessive way or a compulsive way. Right. You mean to say that it's not a relationship, it's just an act. Exactly. Uh but it's but it again it it kind of feels like a relationship. And so it it compensates for something that was missing in the bonding experience or development of a uh of a child uh really. And uh and certainly uh if that experience continues into adolescence or adulthood, you have a real missing piece, you know, a real real kind of hole in in yourself in which in which you try to fill it in various ways. People used to fill it with drugs, right? Uh substances. Um people sometimes even fill it with gambling and and what we call process addictions which are behavioral rather than chemical. Right. So versus pornography which is uh which is no attachment is just stimulation. Is that what exact exactly? Um in fact I'll point out some of the differences. Pornography is first of all isolating you. You do it yourself. Um it detaches people from others. uh you get into your fantasy world, into your own head and are more comfortable there than you are with real relationships. Um and you also, you know, develop teenagers, for instance, who are who compulsively watching pornography, we we see that they have um much greater incidences of impotency with real people. uh um and I won't get into the physical reason for that, but you can imagine that uh pornography connects with masturbation very very often. And once you get into that kind of compulsive behavior, uh you're really uh kind of just taking care of yourself and having less and less need and less and less ability to connect with another person. uh even on that physical level. So you would say that's the opposite of attachment. That's the opposite of connection. Pornography. Yes. Oh, very much so. I think it's detaching. I think it's isolating. You can we say that the the three A's uh of pornography. It's accessible, it's affordable, and it's anonymous. In other words, you can just do it. So it's like a it's a very convenient for a person who wants to uh you know get into a depression into a destroy his uh their own world own world. In fact I would say the pornography is closer to um gaming addiction than it is to sex addiction. By gaming addiction I mean you know the the uh MM RP multi you know the mass multiplayer role. I'm sure that um this problem was an old pro. This is not a problem that just started. This is going back for generations and generations. And but you're just saying it amplified because of the internet more because it used to be hard to go out and this and that and find either magazines or whatever people used to do. So now it's became more and you think because of that more people are suffering. Accessibility does lead to increased uh increased addictive behaviors. We know this, right? Uh societies that forbid alcohol, for instance, um Muslims, the Mormons, they do have a lower incidence of alcoholism. It's as simple as that. because um people who may have a tendency towards alcoholism if they don't have access to it or if it is culturally uh not accessible uh they don't get addicted uh at least not to that. They may find something else uh but it's not going to be that. The legalization of marijuana uh has produced uh many many more emergency room visits for people who have uh you know uh overdosed on THC the correct the chemical marijuana. So what you're saying is that the movement that they have in the Orthodox communities, the Kedi communities um with filters on their phones and they're trying to get um phone I mean they're trying to get no access to any smartphones for the children and now the public schools are even getting involved with this now u trying to uh get the phones out of the public school. You think that this is this is the right mahalak. This is this is to fight the internet with aggressiveness. I'm I'm I'm all in favor of appropriate filters. It's not the solution. I read someplace that in this particular field that to to abstain from this is not the solution. It's the connection, the attachment, the healthy connection and attachment. What these people need to fulfill is what the solution is. Is that correct or not? Depends which level you're dealing with. Uh abstinence is kind of the ticket into getting healthier. In other words, it's very very difficult to work on deeper issues which trauma especially which brings up um a lot of uh you know emotional um disturbance. um it's very difficult to where when you're still indul indulging in the addictive behavior. You're just going to kind of, you know, go back to your addiction if it gets too too difficult for you. You know, we we we we think of it kind of as a maybe the old kind of thermometers with the red mercury and you know, you can you can maintain some some degree of stability as long as the temperature stays within a certain range, but if it gets too high, you don't have the control anymore. And and so we I do anyway. I I work initially with people uh on a program of abstinence, on a program in which we we have the tools and the ability um to not uh you know go back to the substance or the behavior uh with a lot of support and uh some you know there great programs 12step programs and others in which you can really access uh you know close um um fellowship uh which is also a great source of support, right? Um and then of course once you've achieved some degree of stability there then we go to the to the to the real kind of uh origins of what was you know missing pieces that needs to be fulfilled. Um let me ask you a question in your language. What is sex addiction? someone comes to you and says uh you're trying to diagnose a person because what is the difference from a high libido to a sex addiction? Well, um I I'll give you my two twominut uh uh you know version of what addiction is in general. And and here's the way here's a way I I I ask my clients, you know, initially uh to to ask themselves. If you're doing something or taking a substance or you know any behavior and it's causing a problem in a major uh important domain of life that is in education, relationships, physical health, financial health, spiritual health. Of course, if there's something you're doing that's causing a problem in any of these important critical domains of life and yet you keep doing it, that's an addiction. That's a red flag. Because people who experience pain stop it. People who experience pain in an important, they say, "Well, I'm going to stop, you know, uh uh you know, yeah, I'm going to stop uh you know, hitting uh hitting my foot against the uh the stone." Yeah, you know, but if you if you if the pain is not enough of a motivation to stop, then you got then you have to ask yourself what's going on here because that's not uh not just not just rational, it's not uh human behavior right now. as far as um a person dealing with sex addictions and like you said before it's not a relationship it is just um you know an act it's just an impulsive act um is that fall into the category of uh double life that fall into the category of cheating and how does the spouse need to understand that it's really not the wife or the husband uh it's a problem so so let me something up here that we didn't touch on yet uh and that may be a little bit off the question that you're asking, but um there is a neurological component uh to addictions. Um I I won't get into the neurology uh of of uh the reward pathway, the messyic system of the brain. I will say that once you have um uh found yourself compulsively doing something that is producing dopamine that is producing you know one of the neurotransmitters that are responsible for pleasure then you are beginning to rewire your brain to keep needing it. The brain is essentially wires axons. These are I'm talking literally not just uh metaphorically. These are these are um and and you know once you kind of create this circuitry uh in the brain uh it's very easily triggered and you have kind of this very strong compulsion anytime you're minorly stimulated either by something you see something you hear something you smell even something you think you can you know so so I I I want to point out that um people who are addicted to something are really facing a tremendous challenge and not just a psychological one but also a kind of almost a physical one in a neurological sense. So as far as the spouses are concerned um uh spouses are essentially and I I do uh work with a lot of spouses um being traumatized And you can't get away by the behavior. Uh it's not the spouse's fault. They did not there something called the three C's in a program uh of Alanon. They didn't cause the problem. They can't control the problem and they can't cure the problem and they need to begin to understand that they can contribute if they choose to uh to the um work uh to the to the support I would say of the addict but it's not their job to fix them and it shouldn't be and they need to take care of themselves. They need to access good healthy support for themselves. Sometimes therapy is very important in these cases and recognize that um you know they are being subjected to a traumatic experience and need to figure out what will work for them. So, what you're trying to say is that um there is light by the end of the tunnel and a spouse should know that um it's not her fault, but she should be there and support and understand the problem just like you know any other addiction and not run for the hills. So, I would say that's the goal, but not in every case. uh uh is a spouse required uh to be uh in this game, right? They have a choice. Correct. And hopefully with the help of of professionals and other mentors in the area they can and if that individual um accepts and agrees that he has a problem and he wants to help himself in most cases you would see that the spouse are supportive. Yes. If it if it is a sincere attempt and not just talk, right, but walk, right? You know, right? But, you know, if you're doing uh things that uh are geared towards really getting better and helping yourself, even if it's a struggle, even if uh even if you're not completely successful, uh you know, initially, um if you're struggling in a in a um consistent way and listening to the help that's available for you and doing the things that you need to do, I would say that most spouses will stick with you and and support and support you in that regard. Um but uh you know uh uh you can't measure someone else's pain and uh I can't always say tolerance level. Yeah, exactly. I can't always say that you know uh that the right thing for you to do is to stay in this relationship. Right. Right. Is sex addiction a uh a clinical diagnosis? I mean in the it's not officially a diagnosis in the DSM in the diagnostic manuals. Um there is something called hypersexuality which we kind of use as a substitute diagnosis but we and that and this has to do with political issues. It has to do with uh cultural issues in terms of even psychologists. They don't want to stigmatize any kind of sexual behavior in the big wide world out there. It's a debate. Um, but I'll say that I mean, practically speaking, an addiction is an addiction. And if you can't stop doing something that's harming you, it's there. It's there and you and you need to get help for it, whether it's diagnosible for insurance purposes or not. How does a day in the life of a sex addict look? I mean explain us on what is in real life what how is his day how does he get up in the morning what is he looking for what is he searching for where is what kind of stuff is he doing that is like out of control so we understand what a sex addict is it's a wide wide range of uh different behaviors you can't really pinpoint what a sex addict will is doing on a daily basis there are people who are um you know uh totally uh consumed with the behavior and can't really detach themselves from uh triggers and arousal and are you know constantly challenged and then there are people who are periodic who uh can go for months months with without any incident. Yeah. But but they binge, you know, once they get into it, they they can't really get out of it or it takes them a while. Where are these people going to look for this? I mean, is it is it they'll pay for it? They'll they'll go to any what what's their mindset? So, it depends what you're what you're referring to when you say look for it. Uh if it's pornography, it's ubiquitous. It's everywhere. There's no right there's almost no way to avoid it based on the marketing techniques of uh of websites that deal with this. What what are they capable of like when your life when this takes over your life? Yeah. Um they what what actions would they take like to what length will they go? Again, it's individual, but um addiction can progress to the point where you just kind of lose a sense of uh of rational thinking. Um, and you'll you'll do things that are unsafe, both physically unsafe, uh um even criminally unsafe, uh uh financially destructive, um uh and and and you know, it's one of the things about sex addiction as opposed to other addictions is that it has a direct kind of impact on relationships. Correct. You know, I mean, alcoholism also has an effect on relationships. Uh, you know, at the end of the game, they all ruin relationships as far as, you know, alcohol and drug. Oh, I have, you know, gambling addiction for instance, which very fast and very uh um um highly destructive behaviors that can really ruin families very quickly, of course. Um so, yeah. Uh it's, you know, it's um nipping these things in the butt, right, is is uh obviously the ideal. Addiction covers a wide range of sexual behavior. It's not just heterosexual. There's a there's a very strong component in the homosexual community. And not just in the homosexual community, but in the community in which um well, you don't have access to the opposite sex. You only have access to the same sex. And so uh I can point to you many studies that show that you know when confined in same-sex situations, you still are, you know, reaching out for some kind of connection, right? Even if you're not uh you know, gay, if you're not. So this comes from uh because there is no there's no exposure that's why they turn into like gay or whatever places some people some people are have always um experienced uh homosexual arousal some people acquire it some people default to it because there is that's what's around and I need some kind of release or I feel I do so let's say if someone um is a sex addict and he has no excess and he doesn't want to even go to that other side because he was not exposed to it and he knows that there's a you know he doesn't feel good about it or whatever but he can't control his sex addiction. He would go to same sex and run and and and try to approach it's you know some people yes and some people uh no uh it depends on their uh depends of many things it depends on their orientation depends on their experiences don't forget that we're a bundle of experience um we you know we can speak theoretically ally about, you know, whether people are born with a blank slate or not, you know, up here. Uh, but the fact is that um we from from birth on we're we're experiencing things and we're incorporating these experiences into our uh cognitive processes, into our thinking, into our feelings, etc. Uh so it's it's very difficult to pinpoint you know where things started and what are the most uh common root causes where you think that um sex addiction stems from? Well, uh, as we said at the beginning, Joe, um, uh, there seems to be a glitch somewhere along the line very very early in life in terms of a bonding experience and and I'll give you an example. We did a study. It's it was I I question whether it was the greatest study in the world but there are we're trying to do some studies in this area and one of the studies was trying to understand family of origin issues um for people who are diagnosibly what we would call diagnosibly uh uh sex addicts. And what we found was this, that 70%, and again, I'm not going to point to this as being such a highly accurate study, but it's pretty close. 70% of people who became sex addicts come from a family in which one or both of the parents were rigid, controlling, very often religiously so, and emotionally detached. So if you have that kind of parental experience, you're kind of set up to later in life search for some way of regaining this human this very human need for deep attachment in which you feel safe, which you feel heard, in which you feel connected to. It's needed. Needed. Yeah. We find that women for instance uh you know uh more fit into a category of relationship addicts or love addicts in terms of wanting that emotional connection and that that real that deeper bonding experience and and compulsively looking for it in in unhealthy ways. Right. Um men tend to be more physically uh on the sex uh side of of of addiction. I I I want to make a just a a point here that whatever the origin of your behavior may be, if you indulge in any addictive behavior which by its very nature produces strong surges of dopamine and strong neurological connections, at some point it's going to be more about this this neur neurological need uh that overtakes the emotional need. I think that many therapists in fact neglect this this point at which at which if I just went back and started treating the origins I'm not necessarily going to be successful if I've already created this neur neural pathway uh because it is separate don't forget we consider addiction I'm not talking about sex addiction which there's no diagnosis for but the diagnosible addictions we consider to be what we call primary diagnosis. In other words, it's not like it's a secondary diagnosis like I'm an addict because of this mental health problem. It becomes primary. I'm an addict because I'm an addict at this point. I may have a co-occurring disorder. I may at some point want to go back and, you know, work on the origins. But at the point where I have kind of created that pathway in my in my brain, I uh am a slave to it uh to some degree and that needs to be addressed uh initially in my opinion. Why is he uh looking for it in all the wrong places and why is he looking for it in uh why is it not enough what he's getting with his relationship in his home? addiction um to whatever it is you're addicted to produces a much more highly um um a stronger and and a much more powerful surge of good feelings. Um that's number one. So if you've been introduced to this surge, the brain says, "I want more of this." Now, if you have a missing piece, right? And all of a sudden, you find something that says to you, "Ah, that's what I've been looking for." It may be subconscious. you may not, but it enters the the kind of uh subconscious uh mind in a way that says I know what to do if I want to feel better right now. Now, addicts in general do have some other issues like low frustration tolerance like impulse impulse control issues. So you combine these kind of personality types which are can be genetic with a an experience that they have. And you've got that kind of combin lethal combination that produces the why do I need to spend all my time trying to develop a relationship when I can get this pleasurable surge right right now. By the way, you know, we're talking I I I I was just thinking as you were um uh asking me these good questions that we're talking about human connection etc. There is a spiritual aspect to all this and when we talk about attachment and connection uh certainly in 12step programs what we but also psychologically speaking um it's also an attachment to Well, to a higher power, right, with what's inside of us. And um in 12step work, that's a primary relationship, correct? That can be hugely important and maybe most important in terms of beginning to connect and um obtain that kind of uh you know that that that missing piece uh that you that you may not have been able to access especially when you have kind of negative feelings about yourself. If I don't love me, who's going to love me? Right. You know, um so so what you're saying is and it's very interesting because I always say this, I mean people sit in rehabs uh from in the morning till at night and all they do is have meetings and talk and they they use the 12step program. is very popular and the 12step program is a spiritual program for sure. And what you're saying is that nothing different like any other um addictions, gambling, drugs, alcohol, whatever it's called. This type of addiction, the you're a big proponent. you the solution is the 12step program to connect to Hashem and understand that Hashem is in control and understand that like you said you you love yourself and you also feel that you are loved and that sets you in a very uh comfortable secure mindset that you can move forward and say to yourself I don't need to prove myself that I am loved or that I need something from an outer environment. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. I'll tell you a story uh from uh I think it's from the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. Um there was uh even prior to the advent of 12step work. There was a man named Roland who went was a terrible terrible alcoholic really killing himself. But he had the uh the means to go to a very famous psychiatrist in Europe, Carl Young. Um and famous. Yeah. Yeah. He famous. And and he spent a year there actually and uh was treated and kind of got better and stayed away from alcohol, etc., etc. And um they agreed that that was you know Jung did everything he could for him and he went back to the states Vermont and he relapsed very very quickly. And um he went back to Europe back to Jung and said I I I don't understand. So this is the story. It's a little anecdotal. I don't know whether this is exactly the way it happened, but and Jung Jung said to him, you know, um uh you're never going to get better. An alcoholic of your type does not get well. This is devastating. Devastating. It's not good news. Not good news. And he pleaded with him and he said, "There's no way that you can help me. There's no way that I can become clean and sober." He says, 'Well, here and there, now and then, I have seen alcoholics recover almost spontaneously when they have some kind of personality shift. I can't explain it. I've been trying to induce that in you, but I have failed. Go back and find religion. That That's what his advice was. That's what his advice was. And that's what Roland did. and he and he got sober and he was one of the original people that gave the message of the connection between spiritual life and addiction to Bill Wilson, one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. Wow. It's amazing stuff because is it fair to say that you know though is it fair to say if you have a connection if you you know your mission in life and you feel worthy and you feel fulfilled is the key to self-esteem. I like to say that if you want good self-esteem, you do esteemable acts, which is what you're saying, right? You do things, not so much think things, right? But do things that you feel are connected to your values. Understanding. One of the things I work with clients on uh uh interestingly, I I I hope is for them to really understand what their values are. are and by values I don't mean like goals in life right dignified values of that that you want to live by exactly exactly the the guiding lights uh that you live by and and also establish kind of a hierarchy you know what's most important what what values are are ranked you know how are they ranking like and doing things creating a program for yourself in which you consciously um um take actions that are based on these values I think usually contributes to self-esteem and therefore building up your life. Yeah. I find that even people who are not addicts, people who are, you know, they're busy with the business, they're running, they're trying to be successful and they're successful in their lives in certain ways, but if they are missing this component which is spirituality, um having a mission, understanding that uh what humbleness means are having very very difficult relationships. Personally, I I don't have the data on it, but it sounds uh pretty right to me. Right. So So the 12 12step program you find is helping is is this is what they're doing. one of the ways I you know um I I don't want to although I'm a big proponent of toast up work and uh I I think it's just kind of a gift right uh to us uh from a higher power that right uh but um but there's a lot of other there there there are many components to this uh and very very often are mental health issues that need to be addressed, right? Um I have a certification what's called co-occurring disorders uh or dual diagnosis in terms of you know being able to treat issues of personality or mood disorders. Um uh and so you know one of the founders of AA Bill Wilson himself was um diagnosibly uh had mood disorder but was depressed and getting sober did not necessarily help his depression believe it or not. He went to some psychiatrists and he worked on it all all his life, but he he led an incredibly valuable life and stayed sober and he changed the world. I mean, he helped hundreds of people uh saved people's lives. Yeah. So, there's, you know, there's there's other elements here. I don't want to make this all about, you know, you know, uh 12step work, right? And I will say this that you know although it's my you know preferred direction but people can find God in other places in other ways we can all find our our own paths but it needs to be genuine and it needs to be something that is you know um profoundly um meaningful to you. Uh but but the the the thing is we have to come down from the high horse people who think that they control their lives and people who don't let Hashem in their lives and uh they just see the world you know as uh you know logic if I do this this is going to happen are going to find themselves in difficult situations um anger and and and frustration and it's going to it's going to it's going to take a toll on the people around them. I would agree that that's the way I that's the way I see it. Now, as far as the word shame, um is shame a cause of something that of like for to to is it a result the addiction is a result of shame? Uh so that's a uh you know chicken and the egg question. uh you know what came first, right? You know um uh again one of the uh gurus in the sex addiction field says that add a sex addiction is an addiction to shame. Why? Why? Because shame real deep feelings of shame seem and I don't have any proof of this but seem to produce also kind of a dopamine surge. Uh so you get into this place of cycle you know but that's that I think is besides the point. Um the difference between guilt and shame for instance uh is an important one I think and guilt is I did something wrong and I better change it. I feel guilty about it. Also that you were told all the all your life that um you're not good enough or whatever you didn't live up to a certain standard is guilt. But where does shame come from? So I'm I'm not sure I agree with that. I I think that um it can be you can interpret that in terms of guilt. I just want to make the distinction that guilt is to me anyway is more about you know what I did and how to fix it. Shame is more about what I am and I can't fix it because I'm broken because there's something wrong with me because I'm intrinsically defective. God you know the quality control was not working that day when uh you know when I was uh created right so what you're saying is a person can live with shame all his life feeling that he is uh less than less than and then he reacts in certain ways u because of that shame like the the the argument is I'm nothing anyway I'm ashamed anyway so why might as well to do whatever. You know, that that's one of the sad um cycles that people go through in terms of giving up, you know, giving up on life. Yeah. So to get rid of shame is is is believing is is is building a new relationship with Hashem and understanding that you are and you are not a mistake. Uh doesn't make mistakes. Does not make them. It's just that your thinking is a little bit distorted. Absolutely. Um it's also of course appreciating yourself. Uh but uh you know via that I that idea and that reality for me anyway that God does not make mistakes, right? And that God is present always. Uh, you know, we say that if you know, if you're not feeling close to God, you have to ask yourself who moved because God didn't move away. Right. Right. Uh, who took the steps away? Yeah. Uh, and recognizing that and really it's not just an intellectual recognition, you know, it's it's a it's a heart. It's a feeling on the inside. It's a it's an understanding. It's a kind of a light bulb going off, right? That that's that's amazing stuff. Now talking about shame, what would you say to a person who feels that his life spiral out of control? He may think of himself that he is in he's is going down the rabbit hole as far as sex addictions goes. But then shame and embarrassment comes in. He doesn't want to he doesn't want to admit it. He doesn't want to go for help. He's struggling with this in silence. Yeah. What would you say to these people? Uh well, first of all, I have tremendous compassion uh for people in that position. I love my clients actually. Um they're good people, very good people, very spiritual people intrinsically um who are struggling, who are suffering and um you know they don't want to be uh doing what they're doing as much as other people don't want them to be doing what they're doing as well. It's the same level. Um, so I would I would say that um that they talk about, you know, hitting bottom. That's the kind of colloquial way of, you know, talking about it. Rock bottom. I think part of the job of a of a therapist in this field is to help people raise the bottom to where they are now. In other words, to see that now it's bad enough for me to right aband abandon my way you know right one of the questions I like to ask my clients is you know because they very often come to me with you know what their ideas of what they need to do and how you know what will work etc etc well I can't find you know how has it worked for you so far you know was the question right uh and so getting a little of he was you know getting a humility uh in terms of tell me what to do right and I'll do it the best I can that is that is the beginning of real I think real change uh and real success so it's courage they have to take some courage and and and decide for themselves that they don't want to live in in hell they don't want to live in ghannam anymore and they should go and and and look for help and get the right people and hopefully they can do something with themselves Joe, you're familiar with the serenity prayer, right? Yes. Yes. So, it says, right, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change and the courage to to change the things I can. Right. Correct. And of course, the wisdom to know the difference between those. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. Now, as far as you speak to a lot of people and you're in this field, um, what catastrophes did you see? What what what kind of toll did this take on families? Um yeah, I I I think that uh uh we could be here for quite a while. Unfortunately, very unfortunately over the course of decades of working in this area. um uh the pain that I see in sexy and I work in other addictions by the way of quite a number of um especially younger guys that they're addicted to weed and uh a lot of gambling addiction in the Jewish community and the Orthodox community all of which were de could be devastating. Um um but uh yeah the extent to which sex addiction has the the saddest part of uh I think this is even with recovery meaning beginning of abstinence the beginning of change etc. It takes quite a while and this is something that I try to help my clients understand. It takes quite a while for trust to be rebuilt in the relationships that have been severed severed by by sex addiction. And both parties need to have patience, especially the addict needs to have patience with the spouse and recognize that I have created trauma in this relationship. And just because I'm a hero coming back from, you know, rehab all well now doesn't mean that my spouse is not still highly affected. Wow. Uh and has very strong elements of PTSD sometimes post-traumatic stress. Uh and it will take a long time years sometimes to heal to recover. Amazing. Amazing stuff. Um, how can a partner like a spouse distinguish between when she has to deal with um this situation between uh you know uh an addiction and a betrayal? you find that that there's this is a a question that always comes up very very often comes up and it's and it's difficult uh to distinguish between those two and and you know um we talk about it as being betrayal trauma you know that pornography by the way feels like betrayal just as much as for some yeah some some people uh very upset about this it's it's a bet on many levels it's a betrayal of our relationship ship of our of our even though it's not anything physical even though even though but it feels like it and I can 100% understand a spouse who feels this way um uh because she feels that uh you know she's she feels that he's he's not satisfied he's looking for something else and that makes her feel small and you know and and we have we have spouses which such good open and loving hearts that They the first thought is that I must have done must must not be enough. I must I must be doing something wrong. I should be doing more. Right. They're wrong. I want your audience. I want the spouses to know. Should not blame themselves because what's that what's going on over there is not is not what she's supposed to uh exactly. But the expectations that you get from that's why even if someone is not uh an addict, it's a bad idea because what it does is that it gives this person expectations that you should be proud that you that that the spouse doesn't even know. I could talk about the the evils of pornography for the entire hour at least. Um on a on a non-addictive basis, it has negative effects, I think. Uh it has negative effects on your mind. It has negative effects on uh in which way does it have negative effects? Oh, it gives us uh completely false um and I would say immature but certainly false ideas of what sex is. Uh um unrealistic um um what uh what what it looks like. it uh as I say it is isolating um um um it's um uh you know just it has just so many components that are um gives you a brain fog. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, for some it it affects different people in different ways, but um um it's just um it takes one out of the realm of human relationship and into some some fancy Hollywood world that doesn't really exist right in real life. And certainly, and by the way, it also uh a lot of pornography has a component of demeaning women especially, correct? of of objectifying them and demeaning them and using them and it is a terrible um education if I could put it that way. Right. Right. For especially for adolescence and even for older people, right? It's it's it's it's some serious stuff. So um what does healing look like for a person who is uh struggling? Yeah. And um what does success mean? Well, that's a good uh question. Uh success I would say is I may be defined differently for different people. Uh but I I I think there are phases though uh in terms of recovery. Um I don't think recovery is a you know is you know from one thing to another. I think it's a journey and um the initial journey is discovering um uh you know more and more about yourself about your relationships what's important to you your values your connection to God um getting to know yourself better and hopefully with guidance like yourself better a lot better and you you you you saw a lot of progress as far you saw people take making a 360 degree turn 100% and it turned the life around and the living 100%. I would I would I would I don't know about the [ __ ] world but you know I would prefer you know somebody have a relationship with someone who has been uh you know in a 12step program let's say you went through the five years and and went through it they are in good shape to have a relationship I don't know about everybody else right because they have the experience they they saw themselves and they came back up yeah I was I was friendly with um Dr. Abe Torski all over his show. Oh yeah. I love this man. I loved him. I used to listen to him and read all his books. It's tremendously missed. He once said to me, he said, "Steve, you know, you know a good dentist in AA." I guess so, but you know, uh why do you need a dentist in AA? Well, listen. He says, you know, I go to a dentist. says, uh, in if a dentist in a I know he's clean, he's sober, I know he's anybody else, I don't know what they're doing. Right. Right. Right. Right. What they're doing because he he's a refined man, right? If he came out of the 12step program, what is a a relapse? A relapse is is just like you can relapse in uh just like the rate you relapse in alcohol. Same way there is a relapse over here. So that means a person can be sober. What do they call it? Sober. Sober. We call it sober. We use that alcohol language. 20 years later, 15 years later, yeah, relapses do occur. Uh we consider addiction to be what we what's termed a relapsing disease. In other words, uh we understand that relapsing can be a component of recovery actually if used properly if with guidance if uh if understanding what happened uh you know checking the tools that you have uh you know redoubling your efforts. By the way, people who have been let's say sober clean and sober for extended lengths of time who relapse generally speaking will get back to sobriety much quicker. they'll have again much much longer success uh in doing that. So nobody loses the the work that they've done, right? Because that work did not go out of the window. You just you got a slip and then you get up again and you start again. We don't recommend relapse but we but it does happen and we treat it uh recognize it as happening as a no. Let me ask you a question. Men versus women. Yeah. Are women also sex addicts? Yes. 50/50? That I wouldn't say. No. You would say it's less. Well, now you're getting into a into a sociological discussion actually because the big question is are women less likely to report themselves in terms of sex addiction than men in in alcoholism for instance. Today it's it's evening out. But in the uh in the uh in the days of the big book many that was all men. It was mostly not all mostly men. One of the reasons being that it was much more shameful for a woman to call herself an alcoholic. So they they they hid it more more uh you know more seriously and they so they suffered more than suffered more. So for sure silence for sure. As I said before, you know, women tend to be more on the emotional side of the of the addictive looking for looking for some, you know, romance or love. Uh obviously not in a healthy way if they're addicted to uh to it. Uh, and it's never going to be fulfilling in a in a in a um uh the deeper way if it's if it's just about, you know, trying to, you know, just uh you know, medicate myself. But um but men are more visually stimulated than women generally speaking. And so, you know, pornography, which is to some degree a gateway uh into real sex addiction, um you know, so men are more likely to be uh initially uh stimulated by by what they see. What has been the most what you can remember a difficult um eyeopening story that you that you heard about you know that can happen in this field. Oh I have to think about that. I have so many uh so many stories um um that someone just did something out so out of the ordinary that you wouldn't believe that it's even you know next level. Well, um I don't know whether they did anything that was in the next level, but I do know and I'll put this red flag up for your guy people that I have uh had a number of clients um prestigious positions in the in the community who have for instance uh experienced blackmail uh for having uh an affair affairs or even line. Um u so so they were suffering from this addiction and they acted on it and then they had someone blackmailing them that this and this is going to happen and what they were looking for money or uh money whatever it was money and they paid a dear price for this in many ways. I had one person who who um the um criminals who were blackmailing them came to their door in their house and said, "I'm going to show an album of pictures we took to your children." Right. So, what you're saying is there's it's one problem, the addiction, and it's one problem that you have to suffer on your own, and it's painful and it's it's not fun. No. But the consequences could be very very bad. Sure. To say nothing of uh the disease aspect, right? Uh of sex addiction um and the terrible terrible um uh um and unfortunate I would say uh you know consequence which would sometimes be you know the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases. Right? So, it comes with a lot. This is not an easy um I'm not we can't compare it to the other drugs or gambling, which they're all I don't compare pain. I can't say that my what hurts worse than yours does, but pick your poison. Yeah. But uh but it certainly seems to have a much more profound and deeper disturbing effect on society uh and uh relationships uh than than your kind of I hate to put it this way, but you know your run-of-the-mill uh substance abuse. That is that is something to know about. I mean it may help people you know if a person comes home and he's sick or he even can make the the his spouse sick you know if this you know this is this is something that is tragedy tragedy my innocent people are getting affected by this and uh this is something that needs to be addressed as a therapist like you said before you hold space for people that you deal with um with empathy. Maybe it kind of comes naturally but uh but uh um my my clients are amongst the most deeply spiritual people that I know intrinsically. They just haven't found a way to express it and to access it in a healthy way. In a in a healthy way. Um that's what they say about the about the people who are on drugs and alcohol. They're like special numas. These people these people are like in in in suffering so much. In the meantime, they're hurting a lot of people around them. But this there is wreckage to deal with and that needs to be dealt with but it can only be dealt with in a sober healthy way. You can repair damage. It's my word to your audience here. You can get better. Relationships can be repaired. Um we we I like to say that you know we look back but don't stare. We can look back at what we've done and look at the wreckage of the past, but only in terms of what do I do now? How do I not in the judgment? Not in a in a uh you know uh a way that that again brings uh shame that we talked about before, but in a way that that um uh that helps forment helps introduce change uh into somebody's life and there and and you know we have a concept I think called chuva. Yeah. that um that actually changes the past in a certain sense. Yeah. In terms of every year we have it on Kipper. Yes. I heard about that that we can use the experience that we had as terrible as it may have been um for good right uh and that makes the experience valuable. I don't encourage anybody to get the experience to do that. Don't misunderstand me. But uh but if you've had it, you can now convert it into something very valuable and useful. And maybe that's part of God's mission for you. I don't know. On earth, um what you're saying is that um you don't judge anybody. It's not like they made a choice um to do harm. That's correct. What you're saying is they're suffering. Absolutely. And the suffering is, you know, damaging uh, you know, families and close ones and loved ones, but you still want to look at them as far as, you know, they're suffering and we are here to help and we're not going to judge you and we're not going to shame you and it's not your fault, but step try at least try to step up to the plate 100%. um you know um I saying that it's not your fault doesn't give anybody a free pass in terms of in terms of you know uh you if a if you know a an alcoholic appears before the judge after having you know um killed somebody on on the road right uh we can have all the sympathy and and regard for them as having a disease of alcoholism and they're still going to There's a price for them to pay. Yes. Um but uh but yes, it's it's it's not their fault, but it is their responsibility to get help. Correct. Their responsibility to do something about it now. Wow. What you're saying is rebuilding is the key versus ending. How do you deal with if a spouse says, "I'm done with this. I don't want to deal with this and I don't I don't have the patience. I don't have I don't want to wait. I want out. Okay. Well, we explore all the consequences and alternatives in terms of making that kind of decision. We certainly encourage counseling if that's what's appropriate. In other words, couples counseling if that's what's called for. We don't we try not to make these kinds of decisions. um you know spontaneously we maybe it may be an initial feeling but that may be change in time. So we try to put some space in there, but at the end of the day, a spouse does have the ability and I would say the right to make that decision. And I would support it if uh if if all the you know, if uh if it's if it's their decision and they have good reason to be making it, I don't have to agree, right? I do have to support because they're entitled to that. Right. Right. Respect them. Respect whatever their wishes. Exactly. Now, what kind of changes would you like to see as far as um when it comes to sex addiction? Even the subject even today when it's becoming a little bit better and more people are talking more about it and people want to deal more it's still uh a subject that nobody wants to discuss and nobody wants to talk about right it's an uncomfortable subject well you know um it is an uncomfortable I think I think the the key here is to educate the educators is to educate the people who are in a position to hear to hear what's going on to hear stories the rabbis, teachers, the uh mentors, uh coaches to to really educate the u not just the leaders but the what I call the kind of frontline people right who are who are you know hearing from that there is help where the help may be not to give kind of these kind these these kind of old types of solutions Especially, I want to emphasize this because although it's less prevalent today, in my early days, I heard a lot of this, you know, somebody telling the wife that they really need to kind of be more active and, you know, do, you know, do do more of what your husband wants and look better, right? that's I think bordering on on uh being uh um I don't want to say evil but now there is a better education people know more about it. So you live in Israel? Yes, you live in Israel. And how do you see people? You see people on from the US? I see a lot of people from the US via Zoom. Zoom. And then you're here a lot also, right? I come I come a few quite a few times a year and I I do try to see some clients. I'll see them this week while I'm here. uh but there generally has to be somebody who's okay with the zoom uh dynamic which is a little less I think personally like face to face but uh yeah but it works but I have a lot of clients in Israel as well uh mostly actually all Anglo I I I only do therapy in English and um uh and a lot of you Shiva Shiva boys that's amazing accomplishments so let me ask you a final question Who is your role model? Oh, uh, do we want to get controversial here? Go right ahead. I have I have three role models that I have had this to have met in my life. Wow. Okay. Um, and I'll I'll I'll tell you who they are for me anyway. Yeah, of course. Uh, Rabbi Dr. Ibrahim Tiski. Amazing. Um, Shan Kalbar. Okay. and Adinstein who is uh Nifra Alam who was uh our personal family uh rabbi and um he lived in Israel. He he well he he's Israeli from Israel. He he he passed away unfortunately a while ago. Um but I won't go into the the reasons why but these three have been significant huge inspiration for you. Now, Rabbi Turski inspired you as far as psychology and that's where he was he was your hero as far as those well he introduced the concept of it being okay uh to um uh to be a a Jew and and still uh need help. Yeah. Yeah. He he normalized it. I think he used to say that uh there's more spirituality in the basement of the churches than in shoes. you know, he said many things that some people uh may not be comfortable with, but uh but he was uh he he once told me I I I I don't know if uh he he would say this, so I don't want to speak in his in his word, but but um I would say that a majority of his work of his books are based on 12step work. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And he was talking about self-esteem a lot. He said, "I wrote 80 or 90 books, all about self-esteem in different ways, but it's all about the same thing." That's right. That's right. And then his funeral at his levia, he was asking people to sing. It was amazing stuff. He did not he said, listen, he had a long life and he was a composer of the song. I think it was uh Yeah. What song was that? Um [Music] See, that was his song. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, "Guys, at my I saw the video in Israel. I mean, he was buried in Israel." Yeah. He says, "At my funeral, you were singing." Wow. And that's it. And that's how he lived. That's that's who he was. He lived his life. He wasn't sad. He und his time came, you know. That's how he lived his life. He was a dignified, classy individual. Unbelievable. It was good. Tremendous known. He actually lived around the corner from me here. Wow. Amazing stuff. And Schlmer Kalbak, what is how did Schlmerbak inspired you? The way he has inspired I think thousands and thousands of people. First of all, you like songs, you like music. I love I love many of his nagunim. Um I also attended many of his shall and his um I think he was brilliant uh scholar um obviously controversial in some respects won't go into but but um on the whole uh I would say that he introduced for me anyway that uh a pure form of uh the old time balto type for me you know but and there's no replacement for him not that I've come across there's no replacement all right my bha to you is you should continue doing what you're doing and contribute to the world in in a positive way remain and I uh I I I I br you back thank you thank you your work uh seems to be tremendously important for the right time in the right community in the right place. That's what we're trying to do. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you so much.