The Struggle Podcast EP17 Tzvi Tishler LCSWR -Marriage communication

What does good communication look like in a marriage? If my wife speaks Chinese, I'm going to have to learn to speak Chinese. And if he speaks Russian, I'm going to have to learn to speak Russian even though it's not my my language. Like, you know, he lives in LA and she lives in New York and they're happily married. How could I trust you? If if my own mother my own mother was never there for me, you I've met I know you for three, four years. Why would you? I grew up in Manhattan. So, if I get pushed on the subway, but you know, I'm a city kid. Like, whoa, dude. You know, I push back. It's not traumatic. You know, you're going to do keto and you're going to exercise every day and it's not going to happen, right? Potato giggle is going to happen. Okay, Zadic, you need to be in charge today. I need to stay married to you so we can marry off our kids. He was satisfied, but he wanted more. Like, yeah, your wife made you a good supper and then you went to my takeout for a pastrami sandwich. What's what's the channel? After years of mistrust, after years of disconnect, what is your advice on how to rebuild? Okay, today uh we have on uh the podcast an expert guest. His name is um Tishler. He is a licensed clinical social worker specializing in all kinds of mental health. Um today what we're going to discuss is uh what a lot of people are afraid of. Uh people don't like to discuss this subject and this is about having open and honest communication with their spouse. Sometimes you know uh things are getting messy. uh sometimes uh intimacy is getting difficult to discuss. Um it's complicated and the struggle is real. So uh what we want to discuss is when a person is feeling judged uh when a person is feeling misunderstood. So TV welcome to the struggle. Thank you. Welcome to the struggle. Yeah, this is a struggle. So now you're doing what you're doing. So now I'm doing what I'm doing. Excellent. And you enjoy it when um you know you know how good a parent you are after your kids have been out of the house for 20 years. Yeah. So that's when you see the results. Yeah. So you know how good a it was Janina Fischer but it who told me that but you we know how good a therapist we are after you know after a few years have gone by and treatment is long passed and we find out you know and you see the results then wow they're still married and look they have more kids unbelievable I didn't realize what happened but while you're working you don't see that so much it's hard it's hard because there's there's so much happening in the room. Um, and uh, I mean, let's say when I when I worked in St. Vincent's uh, and it was it was nice because I would go in, punch in, deal with people with acute psychiatric illness, um, make those little connections, I'd go home, you know, done. But working in in our community, it's it's it's never ending, you know. I go to sleep thinking about people. I wake up thinking about people, you know, Shabas comes. It's it's even happened that people have knocked on my door in the middle of a Shabas suda like panic break, you know, like panicking, right? Yeah. It's it's it's it's like it it sucks the life out of you cuz cuz you know if I wasn't if I if I was like a technician and you're here for EMDR, just sit right there, sir, and you know, like we'll do MDR. Um but you know, I I come to it as a connector. um and a compassionate person. So being the, you know, bleeding heart that I am, I don't I have a hard time, you know, disconnecting, disconnecting, making a stop. Um and then so when I do it, it for me it becomes harsh. So it's, you know, it's it's a balance that I've been trying to perfect over 15 years in their balance. Yeah. So So do I. So, you know, I'm I'm a burnt out social worker. So, you know, like so do I enjoy there. Honestly, there are moments where the connection happens. Um, and that, you know, and that like, you know, two namas meet or if it's a, you know, if it's a couple watching their their nishamas meet. Um, those are the rewarding moments that kind of give me gas to keep going through, but they don't happen every day, right? They just don't. Right now, let me ask you a question. As far as trauma goes, since you're expert in in this field, um, what is it that trauma has such an impact? So, let's say if a child or teenager is going through trauma. Now, let's define trauma. What is trauma? Um the best the best way to define trauma would be where our normal faculties are overwhelmed. Our fight, flight, freeze, submit are overwhelmed and we perceive because it's subjective um a threat to our well-being or life. So um you know if I'm you know if I'm if I'm in a car accident, it may not be traumatic. I may not perceive I may my faculty's work doesn't have to be right. I mean you know in the studies of post-traumatic stress disorder um they did a lot of research over the years obviously with military because they're just you know easy targets for stress traumatic stress. Um and you'll find two people will be in the same experience and one will come away with post-traumatic stress disorder and one won't. So it's a it's a subjective experience. Um there has to be an overwhelmed thing that happens meaning so like if you know if uh I get pushed on the subway I grew up in Manhattan so yeah I think I think subway right um so if I get pushed on the subway but you know I'm a city kid like whoa dude you know I push back it's not traumatic but if my you know sweet little Rockland County raised children when they saw this yeah they be like so for them it's traumatic but what is um what is more like mental Or let's say if um you know a child loses a parent or divorced or and they don't have they they don't deal with this that you know they feel insecure and you know they people who are supposed to be there to protect them or to confide in them and it's missing. Is that is that a different type of trauma than physical trauma that you're talking about? Trauma can come in all kinds of different ways. Um you know there's there's um there's emotional trauma right there's physical trauma there's um you know body trauma like if if uh if I you know co you know like it's traumatic cuz like I can't do things I I was able to do 5 years ago. Um so trauma can come in all kinds of ways. Um but it doesn't doesn't necessarily mean everything painful is traumatic. I mean there's this like kind of misnome. Trauma is like so popular just get it because someone had some pain or whatever. It was traumatized. Right. Right. Like you know like I didn't I didn't have enough money to pay for the groceries. It was trauma maybe but probably not. It was just a you know uncomfortable situ situation. Right. So what happens? Let's say the child goes through a trauma a serious trauma serious um situation in his life. And is it because they don't do anything with the trauma that that um just takes over their life and it has an effect for the rest of their life and for the people around them? Well, it's um let's say let's say what what I found to be true what I've read is that trauma traumatic experience Yeah. can be mitigated by like you start started with with healthy attachment. So um what I found over the years is that children you know children are now you know late adolescence young adults who have been molested but the people who are the most affected are the people who don't have that um warm healthy attachment. People who have a healthy attachment um go you know go through either they don't come to therapy or they go through the therapy work much much quicker. So you know when you say attachment what do you mean to the parents or if they have a healthy relationship a healthy somebody to go to that is going to get them understand them see them hear them understand them I mean that's the acronym I like to use sh hu sha right a good way to remember it people want to be seen heard and understood and if if you know I go to and you know I you know I got in a fight with a friend of mine and I you know not anymore he's my enemy now and then I come home and I and I come home and mommy gives me milk and cookies and I sit and I cry about it and she tells me, "Oh, it was such a hard thing. It's over." Yeah. It's over. It's it's you you don't have to go do EMDR on it 20 years ago, right? Because she was was seen, heard, and understood. Yeah. Cuz somebody was there. But when I come home and you know um on the adult attachment interview, one of those questions is um when when hard things would happen or bad stuff would happen when you were a kid, who would you go to? More often than not, in the most traumatic, you know, people with most, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms, um they'll say nobody. I wouldn't go to anybody. And that's why they're in my office because there was nobody to go to. I have to kind of help them learn how to replace that voice that was never there. And they sort of have to start doing it for themselves, doing it for other people, and then it it sort of it's going to heal itself. Mhm. So, what you're saying is that if a child or a teenager um or an adult was not seen, heard or understood um that will have a tremendous effect. Yeah. So how many people what percentage of people who you deal with um were not seen, heard and understood? Well, because I have a select group, right, of people coming for therapy therapy. So you see a lot of people. So the majority, you know, 80 90% of people that I work with weren't seen, heard, and understood as so. So give me an example of a um child or teenager or an adult who talks about their childhood who are living in you know with parents and they still did not feel seen, heard and understood. Okay. Well, let me start with a good story and then I'll give you a bad story. That's fine. Um good story is um uh Bakran was coming came to me he was scared out of his wits. was getting married in in whatever 6 months and um he didn't want to have children that like that whole that whole para like they ripped those pages right out of the book just what was behind that I mean he wanted to get married he wanted to get married but he the whole idea of going into a bedroom and taking off his clothes and that oh you mean that part the intimacy part yeah he so so in the attachment work that we did at the beginning um I learned that he His parents are super supportive, loving, caring. You know, if he had somebody if he was had a hard day, he could go to them and they would take care of him. Correct. Um he was he was uh he was raped, molested, whatever you want to call it in a mikvah. Mhm. Um and he like since then he was you know the whole para of Yeah. That was not his field. No. Not his thing. No. Okay. So, you know, we did we did some work on a fight he s had seen as a kid and and this and that just a little bit and then we did, you know, EMDR on on the memory of that and then we kind of did some more work after that. Um, and the whole therapy process till he felt like he was he had met his goals. It took about nine 10 sessions. Mhm. Um I met him on the street maybe a year or two while later and he was I just had a baby. So unbelievable. You know like and and I said what I said can I what you know what was cuz oh I forgot the part of the story important part of the story is through um while we were doing EMDR he remembered that he had totally forgotten about this. He had went after it happened. He went and told his father what happened, right? And his father went to the Vadnez and Vadnezz kicked the guys out of the guys out of KJ and and like he felt like he had somebody there for him. So he said, "What happened?" You know, like I said, I realized like, you know, even if bad stuff happens to me, there are people that I can go to, right? And it was just like that was like maybe that was like I'm going say that's 10 years ago that this story happened um that I met this person and it was just a like a a light bulb right that kind of went off that oh wow look at that. Um on the other hand on you know bad story um yesterday yes yesterday I was working with uh Angman and he doesn't have um you know what as an outside observer sounds like a major traumatic story. He he wasn't he wasn't molested. He wasn't beaten. He, you know, it sounds like it's pretty good except the loneliness that he's felt all his life that nobody's ever cared for him. The only time people want to look his way is when they want to judge him or when they need something. Yeah. Or they need him more like need not something but need him to do something for them like for them. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So then he is really really struggling. He's really sitting in in his in his shame and his broken brokenness and his loneliness to talk to his wife was like pulling teeth, you know, to tell him, you know, to ask her, you know, to to, you know, just for it's like to ask her to make something he'd like for dinner was like I can't ask her, you know, like because he's just the the rejection levels are just like, you know, I can't ask for a cup of water. She's going to say no, right? So he he he never he never felt that he deserves it because that's what he was catered to all his life. I mean he was uh you know that's what he knew that that's where he's comfortable. Yeah. He was never seen heard understood. Um so helping him learn that he can be seen and heard understood. You know we had to bring her in. She comes every third session now and kind of learns how he can learn how and to see and reattach. Yeah. Um and he's as a father um you know he's learning to see and hear his kids which is really um what the attachment people are saying now is that that's really the best way to heal attachment is through parenting because we're not just parenting our inner child. Fancy word there but we're parenting actual people and we're saying hey look that look how that kid my kid feels when I ask him how his day is when I give him a hug. when I give him one more hug before he goes to sleep and one more hug, right? And then I make that boundary. That's that's a not a punitive no, but a um a comfortable, you know, safe. Right. So, what you're saying is that people um when you use the word attachment um is people conduct their lives the way they were taught, the way they were brought up. Correct. is if if a certain if they had a certain attachment a good or a bad attachment issues um they will duplicate they would they would uh emulate that in later in life correct yeah yeah because this is what they this all they know right so it's sort of like this multigenerational dysfunction right right and the job is to break that cycle to break the the attachment style that this person is used to, right? That's the kind of the work of, you know, of the person, right? So, how does a person find out? Does he only find out that there's attachment issues uh when the spouse tells him or the children tells him? Because how how would he find out that his style of attachment is not the way it's supposed to be. You don't need a spouse to tell you you're lonely. Correct. Right. Um, you don't need a spouse to tell you that you've been running away from people from drugs to drugs and alcohol or whatever, right? Instead of connecting to people, you need some kind of like lights to go on. And very often it's a spouse. Sometimes it'll be even grown children, right? Um, sometimes it'll be you'll find yourself, you know, you know, passed out on the floor of some unknown building, right? that life with and you realize like wow how alone am I um so for everybody that you know that that moment is different. Yeah you have to examine it. So the question is what does good communication look like in a marriage? When both parties are, you know, when the husband and wife can feel like whatever I'm saying is heard and I'm not being judged. When if I have a problem, I'm not pushing it, blaming it on you. Um, when you have a problem, you're not blaming me, but it becomes our problem. Um, when I'm open to discuss things instead of lecture. Um, when I'm open to hear what your perspective is and you're open to hear my perspective, right? Basically, not feeling judged and not feeling ashamed to share. Yeah. when when when I'm I'm certain that I'm going to be seen and heard and understood and I'm ready to do that also. Both have to be ready to do that and which means that you don't have to think before sharing. You don't have to uh well you probably should you should think before saying but the idea is I mean you be comfortable enough to unpack um things that uh that you would you would kept you you felt like I'm not going to share this because it's judgment is going to come right right so yeah exactly so I'm gonna I'm not going to come into the room and say you know you always leave your dirty socks on my pillow right I'm gonna I And I'm feeling I would come and say, "It bothers me that there's always dirty socks on my pillow. Can you help me?" And my wife was going to say, "Oh, sure. I didn't know dirty socks on your pillow is gross for you." No problem. Right. That's like right. So, there's a way how to bring it in. Yeah. But it's not like if I mention the dirty socks on my pillow, she's going to feel like I I hate her. she's not a good wife and and then I better not say it and I better just sleep with this the smelly pillow and just be quiet, right? Is it a is it a self-esteem thing that a person um is is avoiding these uh confronting um well I guess the the the attachment struggle boils down to how I feel about myself. Right. Right. So yeah, self-esteem um I you know people say like it's a self-esteem problem. I always like to think of self-esteem as a as a a symptom of a of a hurt, you know, of a hurt or a wound. Um, yeah. Right. So, why do couples avoid um a conversation about let's say intimacy? I mean, even if they'll talk about sex, it's easier and food is easier to talk about when it comes to intimacy. I find I speak to people that they u avoid the conversation. ah she is it's just very awkward for them you know they don't want to go there she will not understand or because and this is in healthy you know pretty much healthy marriages and this is a subject that they just try to avoid all the time right um why do people do that I would assume it's cultural you know we we live in a a western society western European influenced society um you know where Puritan ideas you know the bedroom right the bedroom was was taboo was was something that we didn't go there right so but even a couple who is living together you know it's supposed to be like uh open and honest and right so it depends on how I feel about my own sexuality right how did you know how is it how was I introduced to sexuality right um more often than not I work with mostly men so I you know That's my perspective. So more often than not, you know, not just the world, even, you know, even into the secular world, um, especially, I guess, at this point. Um, um, boys are introduced to sexuality through, um, well, now it's the internet. When I was growing up, it was through magazines, right? You know, innate human sense of of of, you know, shame, but not not in the negative way. just like like this uh what we would call senua perspective right um and because there are certain things that uh people feel that doesn't belong to you know I mean it is definitely a uh issue and it's a private thing but um they take it to the next level they don't even discuss it with their with with with who they're supposed to discuss it right and sometimes it's not it's not against or it's not against um anything else it's what the gave you know part of life, right? And uh it's a it's a subject that is like very difficult from both sides of the aisle sometimes to discuss what bothers them. What bothers them. Correct. You know, and then so it's confusing. It's so confusing. It's so and there's no education about the subject. Nobody's talking about it. I mean uh a lot of parents don't um used to be I don't know what you know but they never discussed the subject and these kids were just you know till they were 18 19 whatever they're learning on their own. Right. Right. Well I mean you know in in uh in and people tell me and I I'm just shocked like there are people that that sexuality just doesn't enter their radar until they're the rebi or the kal. Yeah. There is a there is a communities like that because they shelter the kids. I wouldn't say communities and I wouldn't say sheltered kids because you can have two kids from the same family. One was well informed. All he had to do is look at Rashi. Rashi or friend this or that. Some some doing some Yeah. There's some there there's some kids that are you know they're they're they're so inquisitive. Hey Rebby, why'd we skip that? Right. Right. or what's this business with this dash, you know, they're they're asking um curious when my my son now who's 21, he's a when he was he had to be before bar mitzvah and he was learning Mishnati, what's need what's zav? And he because these are words, can you touch it? So here I'm I'm uh oh do I tell him what it is or do I do the party line? What do I do? Ah, I'm the oldest kid. I don't know what to do. So, so I said it's a kind of tuma. I There's a I was sitting next to in I was sitting next to somebody who's like big m right. So I asked what do I do? He said just tell him it's tuma. Okay. It's a tuma. Okay. And now it's a tuma. Zav is a tuma. K car k car k car k car k car k car k car k car k car k car k is a tuma. Right. Whoa. What else is tuma? Um rats are tuma, you know, like. So now sexuality when I when I find out what need actually is I'm equating it with tma oh that's nice right okay so if we just I mean it is a and it is but it's not it's not like right right it's not like you did something wrong so now you have you said have to go out right it just happens because we're humans So, so you're just saying it's the culture. It's the way we uh but at the same time we're kind of stuck because it's for a good reason because there are people out there who have bad intent, right? Um and we do need to protect our kids and we don't want to open them up to the entire world of sexuality because at 9 10 11 they don't it's they don't need it. It's not part of it's not their time right now. It's not their time when kids and there are there there are swarm coming out lately. I think one's called boys to men or something like that in the litish world. There's things happening. Um there's another safer put out nar. So there are there is there is a shift like they need to be informed that they're not bad. Yeah. And that's a gift from Shmay. Yeah. Because because it is I mean we have to admit it. It is it is a touchy subject, right? Um when you're learning about it, right? Once you know once you enter the marriage situation, right? Um let's put it this way. If I can't be if I can't be emotionally and intellectually intimate with you, how can I be physically intimate with you? Which is a problem. Right. Right. Because physical intimacy in an ideal way is a is a is a progression from that emotional intimacy. Right. Right. So what you're saying is you have to be emotionally connected um before you're physically connected. Have to there's no have to in in an ideal an ideal way, right? In a in a lust driven world, right? I don't need you know I don't need to even know your name. but in a in a in a wholesome connected way. Right. Right. So So what you're saying is that when a person is dating, that's where the emotional connection starts and then they move into uh because they date for what? For 3 months, for 6 months. Well, it depends who, right? So if it's a big show, it's like 30 minutes. That's what I'm saying. So where where's the emotional connection when uh there would I expect you know um Anuassan and Kala to be able to talk about you know a physical intimacy they even can't even think about it just like we would hope for an emotional relationship to build we would also hope for a physically physical relationship to build an open relationship to build. Now, how does unresolved emotions um and and and trauma um show up in intimacy? Let's put it this way. If if I'm emotionally triggered, right, I'm going to uh one of my automatic defense mechanisms, one of my, you know, parts, if you want to call them parts, is going to take over. Um, and uh I I usually I don't I usually kind of follow a more open idea of parts. I don't if whatever and and I mean parts work has been around since way before Dick Schwarz was even born. Um I mean so we can't we can't let him totally steal parts work so we're not going to. Um I usually follow Jannina Fischer who's who's a trauma specialist. Um her she has a something called test and it's much much more simple. Um, we have basically we have a fight response, a flight response. Well, let's say like this. There's our getting along with normal life brain. That's what we're using right now, right? And then we have our trauma brain. When the trauma brain turns on, then there's no there's no information crossing over the midline to the prefrontal cortex. And we actually aren't thinking, we're reacting. So, we're using only part of our head, part of our mind. So we're using our automatic systems of fight, flight, freeze, submit, and that other part which is sort of a cry out for help needy part which is really the other side of the coin of a of a flight part. So, um, if, uh, I've heard this like way too many times. It's kind of sad, but, um, sex addicts will often have the hardest day or their their worst their worst day of the month is when their wife goes to the mikvah. You'd imagine if he's a sex addict, he'd be all he's going to be like raring to go. But because it's not just a one and done, he knows that he's going to have to look at this person in the face. And that's really scary for him. So, he's going to act out. He's going to run away when that intimacy shows because that is the most uncomfortable thing for him. So, he's going to turn on his flight part, right? He's going to turn it'll happen, right? So, even if he didn't act out and run to wherever he's going to run, um once he gets into the bedroom, he's he's, you know, either in this withdrawn state or he can even be in a fight state or he can be in a freeze state or he can be in a needy state or he's a submissive state. So, he's not going to be with his getting along with normal life, connecting, emotionally intimate self as he looks his wife in the face cuz that's just going to totally blow his fuses. Why? Why is that that he gets so um in flight mode when one of the trauma states? Why why is that? Because he's being triggered. He, you know, connection scares scares, you know, the pants off of him literally, right? Connection is a scary thing. You know, if I grew up in ways, back to the attachment story, if I grew up in ways that the people that I was most like I would want to be most connected to were never there or even worse were were harmful to me. Well, that going to get triggered as I step in, you know, across the threshold to the bedroom. So, those people um are afraid of connection. I mean, the connection is what they were missing. And when it comes to healthy connection, they get into flight mode. Is that is that where they're going to their trauma is going to turn on because although they so badly want connection, they need connection. That's the reason for them running all running around. Right. Right. Exactly. But but when they have it, it scares them. It's it's scary because it's foreign to them. How could I trust you if if my own mother my own mother was never there for me, right? I'm the first of 12. Let's say I'm thinking of a certain person. And by the time I was three, there was already one and another one on the way. And I was pretty much ignored from three till now. And you lady, you I've met I know you for three, four years. I know my mother, my mother never took care of me. She was never there. So why would you? So why would you be? Yeah, I want connection, but I'm going to have a fantasy connection, right? I'm going to I'm going to go use, you know, I'm going to use pornography as a fantasy or whatever I can, you know, tell myself in my head. What you're saying is very profound. What you're saying is that um if someone was traumatized, they had a disconnect with the parents or whatever the reason is, divorce or something or a loss of a parent. Loss of a parent. And that child learned at a very young age that um nobody loves me or whatever the case is. And they right there and then they lost trust 100% lost trust in everyone in everybody. Now when they get involved in relationships, people want to love them, but don't they don't let you love them. They don't let you in because they don't trust the soul. because they never knew they never felt or they never had the people who they were supposed to trust to trust. They never felt it. So, so what they do is the problem is that they don't trust. So, there are people who want to who want to love them and trust, you know, build a trust with them, but they don't let you. Right? So you're kind of talking about like a detached attachment scenario where like you know he lives in LA and she lives in New York and they're happily married. Right. Right. That's that's that's that kind of scenario. What would be horrible is if you know he's the kind of person or she's the kind of person that never trusted a soul and never will because they've decided for whatever reason. Um and they're married to somebody who's who's trying so hard. So every time you know you know person you know let's say wife comes a husband takes another step and he she and so it's like this endless pursuit until eventually she says forget it I'm out of here he's not and then he's like hey where'd you go you're supposed to be here right or you know in another way to do it excuse my little hand puppets right there's a like an ambivalent attachment where it's like you know sometimes here sometimes not like so when the child says when mommy says to the kid hey little hey kiddo want to go play on the swings and the kid's like, "Are you good mommy or you bad mommy? Are you going to like start playing on the swings with me with me and then take a phone call?" Cuz if you are, I don't want to. Cuz if you're going to be with I'm on the swings, so I'm not sure who you are. And those are those are most most of us seem to get that kind of dysfunction. Um where you know like you know I'm not sure if you're there, you're not sure if I'm there. And then sometimes we're attached together and sometimes we're not. Sometimes one's pursuing, sometimes the other's pursuing, and that makes the messiest sort of mix. How can a uh spouse deal with the other spouse who completely uh lost trust in everyone, doesn't trust the world, feels that the entire world is guilty, and there's no there, you know, is stuck in his mind. And how can the spouse deal with uh this other one to have some you know build a relationship with a person like that? It's very it's very hard. Um what helps is is um again let's talk about you know either detached or attached. It's not overattaching and it's not underattaching. It's sort of like you know I'm here. Like if you think about it with your kids, it's it's kind of easier, right? Um so, uh teenagers, they're always a party, right? Yeah. Right. So, so if you're, you know, how can you connect with your teenager? Let's make it a little bit more simple, right? So, since I'm the attachment figure, I'm the father and he's, you know, he's my 16-year-old. So, I'm going to You say, um, here's a good one. Shul, right? Shul fathers and sons, especially teenagers. Watch watch any school you go to. It gets messy, right? You either see the kid not there or in the back or sitting next to the father shaking like the father shakes, right? There's like, you know what what you kind of want to see is like sometimes he's there, sometimes he's not cuz he's a teenager. He's trying to figure it out. But Tati stays Tati, right? If you're here, I'm right here by myender. And if you're not here, guess what? I'm also here by myender. I'm here when you're ready. I'm I'm not going anywhere. You can go there. You can come back. You can be on the roof. You can be in the basement, right? But I'm here. I'm here. My expectations haven't changed. My love for you doesn't change. If you want to come in with, you know, with sneakers today or a chup or, you know, bright orange glasses, I'm still here. I'm the same guy that you knew when you came in with black glasses and a, you know, and and a triple zero. Right. That's that's the job of the attachment figure to remain solid and and attached. Mhm. So, if it's with a wife, right? Okay, lady, you're going to go nuts and bananas and run out and and go to your mother and cry. I'm still here. In fact, I'm going to make dinner and I'll set two places. One for me and for one for you in case you want to come back. Right. Right. Right. I'm not playing your roller coaster game. I love you. I'm here. Right. Right. Um Yeah. What are some red flags um that signals in a marriage that there is a disconnect? Oh, loneliness. That means if one of them feel that they're they're they're not secure. I feel that if I'm insecure, I'm lonely. If I if I feel like there's nobody to talk to or if I feel smothered, I feel like this person's like, you know, they need me. So like they they're always needed calling me. They need me. They need me to make decisions for them. They need me to hold their hand. They need because that's remember we spoke about fight and flight a little bit, but there's also that needy part, right? That needy part is like if you think about when you put your little kids to sleep, right? First they're going to fight you. No, five more minutes, right? And then and and then they're going to try and run, right? Like they're getting like a three-year-old in pajamas is like, you know, handling handling a slippery fish. And then finally after, you know, the half an hour of struggle where you had to become a samurai warrior and you get that little thing into bed and then all of a sudden all of a sudden they're hungry. They need they need a drink. Do you need one more hug? Could you just leave a light on? Can you check on me for five minutes? Could you lie down next to me? Can we say again? Did we say I think we need to say again? Right. That's that needy that that needy part showing up because fight is useless. Flight is useless. Right. Right. They're not ready to give up. So that gets that needy. So it shows up in marriage also. Right. Like um I get I'm going to get in a fight with my wife and I'm going to be upset at her. She'll be upset at me and then she'll, you know, she'll do her dysfunction attachment and then all of a sudden I just want her I just want her to like me again. Can I do the dishes for you? Shut up. Go away. Right. Yeah. But but what could you like? So I like I'm going to drop the whole argument and do whatever it takes to get to this this person to give me attention even though she's upset and probably rightly so because that's how it works. Yeah. Right. Then there's there's I'm going to do what it takes to get that person back and that's that needy function. Yeah. So that's that's neediness and loneliness. There are certain things that just that that builds disconnect, right? And you can spot that very easily. What are some practical tools um that couples can use um when they're feeling unheard, unseen, and misunderstood? Um, keeping in mind the sha, yeah, right? You know, if if if my wife is is upset at me for anything, if I go into defense, I'm just going to make it I'm just going to make it harder. So, if somebody's if somebody's upset at me, the best thing I can do is sh see them, hear them, understand them. And after that person, let's say my wife is seen and heard and understood, then I can say, "Hey, are you open to hearing what what it's like for me?" Like my side of the story. Yeah. And if she isn't, okay, it's not the time. Maybe next week. If she is, then I talk about, well, the way I, you know, the way I perceived that, the way I experienced it in my magical demionous world, you know, this is what happened. And then she can see and hear and understand me and then then you know but that's you know that's a starting point to see and hear and understand. Wow. So that's good to remember shu right? Yeah sure. Yeah. Um what percentage do you see when couples come to you after marriage? What is the biggest percentage of arguments? Is it just um what are they arguing about? Is it what percentage is intimacy and what percentage is just regular life? Even, you know, even when I work with couples that are in sex addiction and um there's a there's a certain taboo that they're very reluctant to talk about the intimacy problem. Um but any and every other problem it doesn't really ma like it doesn't when people are uncomfortable with each other it doesn't matter what the problem is. It could be it could be you know you know how you put your toothpaste away right or it could be what you said to my mother or it could be you know how you handled the kids but it it doesn't really matter. It's that I'm not comfortable with you and I'm not giving you the space to be you. So what you're saying is that even this is a huge problem. They're not even going to discuss it with a professional. I don't you know I only know what I see. I don't know what I don't see. I know that I know that you know in our world it's like you know when stuff gets really really really bad it's got to get to a really bad level for you to consider getting a schlish. Right. Then you make a little RV, right? And the Rev will try to handle it for a while. Um, sometimes can help and sometimes not, right? And then they'll maybe he'll send you to an Askin, right? Right. Right. And then they can handle maybe they can't. And then when it finally, you know, when somebody mentions like basin, oh, you got to see a therapist. Right. This is the last resort is what you're saying before. Not always, but plenty. Or, you know, or if you know, somebody catches the other person um you know, cheating, you're using, you know, the internet. Yeah. Then, okay. So, then we're going to we're going to bypass it. We need a good therapist. Right. Right. Right. So how do you differentiate between um emotional honesty if someone wants to share uh with the wife and unloading you know like emotions which which you become a drag you know you're like sharing too much and you're actually bringing the house down you know it becomes negative where's the fine line between the two person yeah I want to share and then who else should I share with and then the other person is being brought down So if it's coming from the prefrontal current cortex getting along with normal life, you know, I I I feel it. I'm thinking I'm I'm not blended. I'm not in a trauma state. I'm I'm calm, cool, collected. I can either share with you or I can go, you know, learn with my if you have, you know, then then we can we can do it. But if I'm unloading, it's usually going to come from either a fight place or that needy place. And it's going to be emotionally, you know, vomitious. Yeah. It's not going to be a productive conversation, right? It's also the it's is it the tone of voice or is it the type of things that you're saying, the way you say it? Um, you know, it could be it could be a tone of voice, but some people are are like computers. They like, you know, they they can emotionally as much as they can unload um in a calm, cool, collected voice. M so it's going to be for me the unloader I'm going to have to notice what's where where am I you know where am I really holding am I centered if I'm centered great I mean you know ask an alcoholic if he can drive you know I could drive no problem and ask an emotionally distressed person if they're emotionally I'm not emotionally he has nothing to say right so but a person if they're honest with themselves they'll know if they're they'll know if they're where which place this is coming from. Yeah. If it's coming from the the the needy state, then it's not on it's not sharing. It's it's unloading. Right. And um after years of mistrust, after years of disconnect and and and uh and neglect and a couple wants to rebuild. This is after a lot of years. What is your advice on how to start to rebuild? is that it takes time, you know, like um if we can just put it in a physical way, like, you know, imagine like you've been neglecting your body and now you're in your 50s, you know, how do you get in shape, right? Well, you know, you're going to do keto and you're going to exercise every day and it's not going to happen, right? Potato giggle is going to happen. That's what's going to happen. So, you want to you want to build it in in stages. You want to go slow. You want to make time. um and know that that the rebuild isn't isn't going to happen real fast one day. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to take time and we're going to grow and um I heard I think in the name of Paliseman one that kind of um they said like marriage comes in stages. When you first get into it it's like a free love you know. Yeah. He's my brother. He's my sister. Just that's how we are. Of course we're together. um and then we become become companions. We do stuff together. We work together well. we raised our kids together and it's it's happening um and then then these are the steps and then there's commitment and we're building our commitment and then samasi like you know imagine at that stage when we're just we're one unit but that that takes time to build and it's not going to happen invas and it's probably not going to happen in the first 10 years. Right. Right. Right. It's a long-term thing. Now, what is your advice about checking in regularly with the others u emotion emotional needs? So, there are a lot of different tools uh to use. Um I just you know there's something called Thanos which 12 steppers like to use. It's like a daily check-in. Um there is So when when would you do when is the time for that? When is some advice of how to's is it a once a month uh every two weeks or every day? Well, it dep it depends daily is is wonderful ideally like if you know if you're you don't want to get a cold, take vitamin C every day, right? If you want your relationship to grow, work on it every day, right? So, give us an example of a check-in like uh um the one I like to the one I I like to use most is kind of comes from a couple's thing called pairs. Um, I kind of adapted it because if I would use theirs, I'd have to pay them like $120 every time I mention it. So, it's not theirs, but it's similar. Okay. Um, but, uh, it's it's it's called the temperature reading. So, it's like a daily check-in. I call the daily dose, right? Um, where you know, first thing you do is you you um you say an appreciation. So, let me just kind of back it up a second. It should take 3 minutes, 5 minutes the most. Um, and you know, on let's say Sunday, I'm the speaker and my wife is the listener. Monday, my wife is the speaker, I'm the listener. Um, and it's, you know, it's it's a it's not a it's not a conversation. It's just a check-in. I'm just giving you what's going on for me. So, first, I'd appreciate something about you. I'd say, "Oh, wife, that was so nice the way you um I, you know, I watched you put the put the three-year-old to sleep last night, and you just it looks so cozy, and I just appreciated watching that." And then she can say, "Oh, thank you." Right? And then, um, the most important part, complaints with requests for change, whereas I'm not just going to fetch, you know, like dinner's always burnt, right? I'm going to give a a real complaint with a request for change. You know, it bothers me that um and it's going to be about me, my preference, not what's wrong or right. It kind of bothers me that, you know, that I need to eat dinner at 6:30 cuz I have a kusa at 7:30. So, it bothers me that dinner's never ready till 7:15. Could you please help me out? Do me a favor and see if we can get dinner at 6:30. And then she can say, "Oh, here it's it makes it kind of rushed for you to get it to have dinner at 7:15." Okay, I can see if we can do that. Um, and then you do uh then I always forget the order, but doesn't really matter at this point. Those are the two main parts. Then we talk about just wondering. I was just wondering, you mentioned that we're going to you wanted to go to your mother for Shabas. Are you still thinking about it? You don't have to answer no. Just wondering. Um, and then new information where it's like, you know, oh, I forgot to tell you, um, so and so got engaged. or it's, oh, new information. Guess what? I won the lottery. Yeah. Right. Just something new that you haven't told the her yet or him yet. Right. Um and then it's always nice to share wishes, hopes, and dreams. Um because it's another way just to like, you know, I was thinking today I was driving home from work. Wouldn't it be wonderful if if we can go away this summer with the kids, you know, or it could be, you know, I dream one day that we're going to have a house in the old city in New Shalim and be the old couple that kind of feeds the pigeons there, right? But do you feel that that helps a lot? This is like a a routine that is like when people do it, but it has to come from a good place or it's not a performance, you know? It has to come from a real Well, it's going to be a performance. It's going to be uncomfortable and performance at the beginning. What you're saying? Yeah. I just rattled it off because I'm rattling it off for years, right? But at the beginning, it's going to be awkward and it's going to be uncomfortable, but um I you know I I a couple years ago I I bumped into one of the parts of a couple that I'd seen many many years ago and they said, "We still do the the the daily dose and it's so helpful." I was like, "Hey, great." you know, so it's it's and it works for them. I if if you do it like vitamins, you know, like vitamins don't do anything if you don't if they stay in the shell in the cupboard, right? But if you take vitamins every day, yeah, you you probably won't get a cold. Yeah. Wow. Doesn't mean you won't get a cold, but your immune system will be stronger. So that's what these kind of things are. So what happens if that one spouse doesn't cooperate? Let's say it's ungrateful spouse and it's just, you know, you're trying your best. I'm trying to do this. I'm going to do the daily dose. But the other person is like, "This sounds to me like a bunch of you know what do you what do you do then? You got a problem. You got a problem. We have a problem." Yeah. And and then it's like it's you know it's not let's say it's not his problem that he's not interested. It's now becomes our problem. Correct. And so how do I so my question for me as as the wife in that situation is how do I want to show up to our problem? Right. I can go and complain to every Robin therapist in my and say it's his fault. Right. But that's not going to get me anywhere. No. Now, what what if a spouse deals with a significant other, another spouse that is emotionally arrested, literally a person who shut their feelings off completely because like we said before, trust issues and is just no feelings whatsoever. Understand why? because the pain is bigger to deal with the emotions than to shut off the feelings, right? How does a spouse go about that with patience? Um just just last night I had a couple there. They're in their 50s. And he is like, you know, shut down. Shut I mean like he's a man's man. He carries Right. Macho. Yeah. Carries a gun and all thing. And and she and she is like full of emotions. And she's just like a mushball. Yeah. So, how did they make it this long? I I don't know. Who knows? Who knows? But they did. And and you know, the the the work we're doing is like she's sharing and he's learning how to listen and respond in an emotional way. And it's it's it's we we make the work kind of enjoyable. Like we kind of can he can laugh at himself about it and she can laugh at, oh, I'm such an emotional wreck. My mascara is running. and he's like, you know, and so it's like that patience and and it doesn't have to be stressful. It can be also, you know, fun to like see what what the feelings come out of this of this guy with, you know, this macho guy, you know, how does that sound to you? And and it's it's it's good work. It takes time. Um, and people can do it. But there are people who are emotionally immature. I mean, they're stuck in their mind to the point that they laugh at these type of um, you know, like you say, mushy mushy uh, feelings. Why are you in touch with your feelings? Why are you talking so much about what do you need them for? What do you need it? I mean, move on and just zeta, you know. Yeah. Whatever is his defense mechanism and um, you're not going to change. This is two different fabrics, right? Except if if I want to have a happy marriage, then I have to learn to speak if my wife speaks Chinese, I'm gonna have to learn to speak Chinese. And if he speaks Russian, I'm going to have to learn to speak Russian. Even though it's not my my language choice. The question is if he is happy the way it is, he likes it his way. Well, if he's happy, but she's not happy. Correct. Is he really happy? Yeah. Or it's like it's not going to work. I mean, you're happy, but you're not living alone. living with somebody who was unhappy, right? So, yeah. So, it's it's it's tricky, but if two people are committed to each other, they can learn the other's language and if it's an emotional language or even it's a tough guy language. Um sometimes people don't and that's why there's a whole of getting a huge huge problem. I worked with a couple many years ago um and he was like there Balichua Bhavage he was like a man's man football guns and she was an artist poet and looking at the stars. Yeah. They they came to me after they'd been to every other RV and therapist and and you know they they didn't end up staying married but but like okay cuz they really were very very very different people. What about um severe cases like I'm talking about narcissistic personality disorder or different personality disorders and you know research shows that a narcissist will never change. They will never change because they don't have introspect. They actually like the way they are. Not they like they're practically in gehenna. They're in hell in their own lives. But um they have no place for change. They have no place for change. They will go along with the ride with you. If you want to come right their way, if you do it my way, whatever. If you do it my way, we have a marriage. If you don't do it my way, then they are so they look they have such grandiose views of themselves that even if you leave, I have nothing to lose. They're living in a different world. this is a severe, you know, and the problem with this is with this personality disorder is that um on the outside they look perfect. They're actually very, you know, successful sometimes and charming and and so it's extremely extremely confusing for the spouse that on one hand he performs he performs perfect but at the other hand he's just a monster. He's he's just not here. So what how does a spouse deal with that? And sometimes there's even children involved. Well, well, if he's perfect, there is. Right. Yeah. And the children see through him, too. Yeah. Um I mean, well, let's say it this way. the the like I told you on the phone DSM DSM 3 4 5 we you know this this current version of the DSM has it kind of all clustered together but it used to be there cluster B an access to um these personality disorders and these are things that don't change like like somebody's IQ like um you know if they have like cerebral palsy that's just not going to change it and if they have personality disorder it's not going to change not going to change however ever. Um, if we look at it as a defense mechanism and a part um, and sort of deal with them on that level, then I'm not dealing with a a stick son of a gun, right? I'm dealing with this very, very fragile person's defense mechanism, right? And then, okay, so that's what you need to protect yourself, right? And and if they're if they're a narcissist, there's no way I'm going to say it. But if I want if I'm choosing to stay with this person and lots of times people do because of kids whatever reason there's a lot of reasons. Okay I you know I'm going to live in my reality while he lives in his reality or she lives in her reality and I understand that this is how this person never has to protect themselves and just because they say it doesn't make it true. Right. So what you're saying is that the awareness comes first. First you understand that this person has a personality disorder and you don't hate or the person for the person who he is you he has a certain defense mechanism that he put on and you choose if you want to deal with this um as like if a person had like schizophrenia, right? Just because they tell me that you know they're little green aliens coming down doesn't mean I have to buy into it. Uh but here's the here's the difference um from schizophrenia. If if you someone is diagnosed with schizophrenia, let's say you know the diagnosis and there's sometimes medication that helps these people and you know they can function like normal people. The problem with narcissistic personality disorder is that they are in and out. They are seven weeks they can be great, not great, super great and then seven weeks they're they're they're like losing it and you're against the world because through to the world they show a beautiful functioning. Uh so it's crazy making kind of right and there's a a lot of talk lately about um narcissistic wounding. Yeah. Um and that's that's what we're talking about. I mean, in terms of if you want to look at it, you know, you want to see if if you can see your parts, what am I being triggered about? What am what's coming up for me when when he tells me it's it's his way or the highway? What does that feel like for me? And if I can be honest with myself, I can say, wait, no, I'm not okay with that. And then he says, well, if you're not okay with that, there's the door, right? Well, okay, maybe something to consider. Yeah. Which is not easy. It's easier said than done, but you know, so if I'm going to stay, then I'm going to say when he says that, I say, "Okay, okay, Zadic, you need to be in charge today, right? I need to stay married to you so we can marry off our kids, and you need to be in charge." So, what kind of what kind of uh living is that? It's very hard. It's very hard living. Difficult. It's very I mean, it's a hard way to go. um you know either if it's a narcissistic or it's borderline if it's you know anything and even if you know even if you want to make it you know somebody with a a severe anxiety disorder it's a similar thing you know we're we're um we're not going to drive on the highway because you believe cars on the highway you know explode all the time right so okay so I can either choose to never go anywhere with you or I can choose to take the side roads take the side roads she like so it's it's if I can be flexible and keep my eye on the prize, right? Um then I can then I can handle it. It takes a lot of you know strong resilience and a lot of resilience a strong sense of self um doesn't mean that if I you know if I work on it on myself and my reactions that doesn't mean that I can't you know live with this person who seven weeks is good seven weeks is bad and maybe we can even make it eight weeks good and six weeks bad and then you know just because the way I'm responding and reacting to the person when I buy his baloney it gets worse it gets worse Right. Right. When I say that if if you if you label it and you name it, the awareness is going to help you at least deal with it a little bit better. Depending depending what I what goes along with that that label. If the label is okay, narcissist I narcissists are evil. I can't Right. Or if it's okay, he has a very very very strong fight part and he really needs that because Yeah. So I'm not labeling it this big scary term. I'm calling out the symptoms and labeling the symptoms as his dysfunction. Okay. Still, you know, you know, um there's a term uh from Green, I forget his name, but he calls it he calls it multi- ultraviolet or something like that where like like I I read his book, but people tell me it's just like he's like, "Oh, no." Yeah. Right. I can't deal. Nobody can deal with this person. Okay. So, now that I have I have a title for it. Okay. You name it to tame it. Good. Call it what you want. call it applesauce. But as long as you know that this is not a regular person or this person is not in normal life brain or in regular state, you don't get so hurt by it and you don't get overtaken by it because you're aware of what is going on behind the scenes. You see through it. You see through it. Now talking about personality disorders, um that's what they write and that's what the research shows that they can use a lot of times intimacy. you know, they give, they hold back, they use it as a form of control. Yeah. As a tool. How do you deal with a situation like that? Um, in a couple, if the couple then we say, you know, you have to be clear what your expectations are and you have to make rules for yourself, but not rules for the other person. What does that mean? So researchers will also say that everybody who has an addiction also has a personality disorder, right? Um so when it comes to betrayal and a couple wants to heal from the betrayal like okay so he went and slept with everything that moved for like you know six years and she's like well I guess I have to stay with him. That doesn't mean that she has to go to bed with the guy right because it's dangerous also right? Well, yeah. Let's assume is clean, let's say, right? And then and then he's going to say she's using sex as a manipulation. Correct. And then we say, "No, she's not. She she just doesn't want to get touch you cuz you're skezy." Yeah. Like be safe also. Yeah. Yeah. He's I'm safe. I got tested. Blah blah blah. Okay. But it's it's for Eckled to know that you you're dishonest. Why don't you work on your emotional intimacy? So that's one way like we you know like he's going to be in the right he you know like it says in you know she's which is a totally misunderstanding of of this um and she's not using but then there are the other ways right you know if you know if you go to bed with me I'll you know I'll pay for your car correct right which is control which is all about that control so she has to say you know she has to be strong and say I'm not I'm not your hooker, right? That's not how it goes here, right? It's like, you know, if you want to have an intimate relationship with me, okay, let's work on intimacy. Let's work on intimacy in the kitchen first, right? Then the living room, right? Then the hallway, then the door to the bedroom and go very very very slow to rebuild that trust. You also feel that um if there is issues in intimacy that is just a result of a the foundation and like you said the living room and the kitchen and the hallway before this is the last part that that is that true what I find um when working with couples uh in betrayal healing if we can if we can restore the intimacy the emotional intimacy the bedroom stuff becomes super easy. Mhm. We don't we don't have to talk about, you know, you know, how do you you know, how do lights on, lights off, right? Right. Because because we're talking we're already talking like, "No, I really want what she wants." And she's saying, "I really want what he wants." And so then at that point, they're they're going to make love. They're not going to have sex. And that's an easy thing to do. Doesn't matter, right? Just it's natural. It's just Yeah. You were saying before that everyone who has an addiction has a personality disorder. Um I would want to elaborate on that but don't we all have um uh addictions? No. Okay. No, I hope not. It's horrible. No, because people say that everyone has a No, we may all have compulsions, right? We may addictions means that you're completely out of control. It's taken over your life. That's that's what addiction that's what the the way I the way I kind of formulate it um the way I was taught to formulate it is that addictions have to meet really three criteria and it's it's about a relationship to a behavior substance or substance and not necessarily uh the drug or the behavior. So it's my relationship to it. So let's take gamarra, right? Very part of addiction, right? You think who who could get addicted to gamar? It happens. Wow. So if my relationship to the behavior or substance is compulsive, meaning like it sucks me up like a vacuum every time I see one. I got to have it. You know, I was working with the gumar addict and he kept losing jobs because um he was learning. He was Yeah. Like he worked in a in a factory. Yeah. But he was always with the cipher. But his gar was open-handed plastic over it and he kept messing up the because he's Okay. Right. So it's compulsive. He can't say no. Loss of control. I meant to do it for just a little bit and I have a lot. Right. After daming it was the old man's babai. So we made or two or three. I don't know. Right. I meant to just have a little and then I have the cup. Right. And it just grew. And then I'm using it and this is important. I'm using it to manage my daily life problems. Not my big problems like my my budget. I'm using it just my boss is a terror. If I just take a little thing on the way to work, I'll be good. And you know, he's a bigger terror. Or yeah, the boss isn't a terror, but you know, like I totally messed up the the spreadsheet cuz Yeah, cuz I was high, right? So when you have those, you can you can check off compulsion, day life problems, and loss of control is going to be progressive. And that's a really important part. If it's not if it's not really these things, it's not an addiction. Maybe a dysfunction and an unhealthy behavior and a destructive behavior, but that doesn't make it an addiction, right? So, let's say if someone is on the phone till 2:00 in the morning on Tik Tok or Instagram, that's a dysfunction that is just compulsive. Well, we want to know. It's obviously out of control cuz who wants to stare at that screen? No, but I'm saying, you know, you got to go to sleep. You got to get up tomorrow morning, but the phone just keeps you there. You don't call it an addiction yet. It's it didn't spiral to that point that it just over takes over your life which means you're losing your job or stuff like that. If you remember in in the way um the way the DSM people talk about it, it's that there's like alcohol abuse and alcohol um dependence, right? So dependence would be the addiction level and abuse would be so I may be abusing, you know, correct Tik Tok, but that doesn't mean I'm a Tik Tok, right? So what are you saying about um personality disorders? So that means that if a person finds himself being an addict, he what kind of personality disorder would you say is uh well it could be any but if you think if you kind of roll it back right addiction is a coping mechanism dysfunctional coping method. It's it's the it's in the flight land right part of the brain. Yeah. And personality disorder is also same idea response. It's like a it's a trauma response. So, so I'm using these trauma responses to manage my dis discomfort. Now, we all could probably find ourselves in one of the personality disorders is what those, you know, the personality disorder theorists talk about, right? And it's just we're managing it and we're okay with it, but in a, you know, in in extreme situations, we would manifest one of those. That's what they say. So, you know, so if if you know, I'm busy every day with my addiction, let's call it alcohol, right? I'm also going to be in a really bad place. And then that, you know, that latent personality dysfunction is going to rise up to the surface and I'm not drunk. I know everything, right? I could drive a car. Okay, narcissist. Hit the wall. Enjoy. Right. And it's just they kind of go hand in hand. Right? Now let me ask you a funny question. Um to sex addiction is there a gateway which means there is a you know like in drugs they say this is a gateway drug. So let's say if a person um has a regular life or he he's not getting his needs met or whatever the case is. Is there a gateway that a person can turn into a sex addict? Well, um, first of all, not getting needs met is already like you're you're standing in the pashar the borderline. Yeah. That's just having that that but I would say that but is there a re this is a reason for someone to to that's what people tell themselves. Oh no. So I'm asking you what is the reason? Well, what people, you know, let's say it like this, internet pornography as we have it today, right, is um overwhelmingly addictive in its own. Like heroin draws the brain in and is addictive. Alcohol very addictive. Um these substances aren't necessarily addictive because the way they act on the brain. Chocolate is a very addictive substance. Yeah. So um internet pornography is absolutely the most addictive um creation that we humans have come up with because it's multi-stimulating. Now you open your screen and there's three three here, four there pop-ups and it's like it's like this over stimulation. Um and it's and it's all for it's like such brain candy that the um the brain scans show that pre and post um uh pornography there's a erosion of the prefrontal cortex that that part that makes our decisions. So there's a physical destruction that's happening along with the um you know the imagination stimulation, the physical stimulation, the visual stimulation, the audio stimulation and like a high stimulated level. Think about a think about being a little kid and you get a toy. That's fun. Now think about being a kid and you're taking into the toy store and you can have all the toys. Right. You're like there's no way to start. Right. Exactly. So that that that is something else. And what are the lies that these people tell themselves, you know, when someone is he fell into this to the sex addiction thing and he's uh deep in it, but how does he talk himself? What are the lies that they tell themselves and say, "Ah, they play it down. I've heard some of the craziest stuff." What did you hear? Some of the cra you want to hear crazy stuff. Yeah. Super functional guy. Very super functional. Was he a narcissist at times? Yeah. Um, but he's super functional. Um, making big money, his best marriage ever, loves his kids. He's the best father ever. Um, and he goes to, you know, the Asian massage parlors. Wink wink. And I said, I thought you had a great marriage. Yeah, but just because my wife made me supper doesn't mean I can't go out to eat afterwards. I said, are you are you out of your mind? What doesn't know does what she doesn't know doesn't hurt her. Are you are you out of your mind? Like like you actually think that it's okay and it took but what is behind it? Was he not satisfied? He was satisfied but he wanted more like like like a an overindulgence. Yeah. Your wife made you a good supper and then you went to my takeout for a pastrami sandwich. What's what's what's the and it's like you know and he can tell and he can he can tell himself that he still has a good marriage and his wife doesn't know. Yeah. as long as he keeps it quiet, then uh then he doesn't see anything wrong with it. And then you start to ask, you know, you start to ask a little deeper, ask him to go a little deeper and he's like, "Oh, I guess I guess he kind of probably feels it that I'm don't really care about cuz I can get it somewhere, you know, like right, you know." So, so that's one of one of the lies. Another lie is um she cares about me. Could you believe it? Right. She's on screen. He's, you know, but he has a full full-blown relationship with the screen like like he's fully in there. She cares about me. Or, you know, one person and he was sure every day he'd come home from the city on the bus and he would tell me about I was sure that this woman she wanted to have my babies like I I had to hold myself back. 100% 100% 100%. But what is this fantasy world? What is what is it? It's it's all But they believe it. Damn it. They believe it. I mean, you know, our brains, we we all live in our own magical kingdom, right? And so, some people's magical kingdom are a little bit more magical. Yeah. Wow. Now, my question is, uh, for a person who examined his life and he took a good look at himself and he feels his life spiralled out, spiraled out of control. What's his first step? Where does a person start? He wants to go for help, right? So a you know there are good agencies to call like a mudim or relief. Those are good agencies to call. They would refer professionals but you recommend them to go sit down with the person. I mean again this is a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage and there's a lot of shame that needs to be pushed to the side a lot. But that's that you need somebody to help you out. Yeah. To do this to to to get out of sex addiction or any addiction alone is it's very hard. It's so hard. So hard. Now as far as spirituality I know that um the 12step program is used and this is one piece of spirituality um what's your take on on uh in recovery um you know for you know that we were talking about all these stories that you shared over here and as far as connecting to the what what's your take on on bringing in the into your life to fulfill what's really that void that that that and including trauma. I wonder if trauma like we said before this is something that um you know we he didn't take it by himself. He just didn't know how to deal with it. But if he brings in spirituality and Yiddish and knowing that how would that help him? It's a loaded question. How much time do we have? Let me let's make it as quick as possible. Let me see if I can like sum it up. If if my trauma happens to be spiritual trauma, religious trauma, like I got beat over the head with this god thing with the basher, right? Right. And and all my understanding is that basher is this evil thing looking to zap me if I step out of line. Correct. I have to get rid of that avoid and I have to embrace an emish kite. Not not a fala like Yiddish kite that my sick twisted you know kimalbi lives with not helping him because he keeps beating the crap out of all the kids. So so I need to find you know without without a spiritual connection humans humans across the board struggle and it and it that is a fact. Yeah. But if if people are looking for something you know greater than themselves they will find it if they can be amy. Now if I'm talking about somebody who's grown up from it's very very hard to get rid of the the um the the bad stuff without getting rid of the good stuff. So a lot of times people go into recovery and drop religion completely completely. Yeah. But um it says in the big book on on AA towards the end um that what the AA people found is that more often people become better um as a result and more often long-term you know long you know thinking with program you know fasds will become from maybe maybe not you know like like their tati was right but they will become more amistic with their relationship to their and that's essential that's absolutely essential and and unfortunately a lot of times in the from 12step groups they skip quickly over two and three steps two and three are the parts that deal with higher power and bring it into your life but that is the most important part absolutely I I scream but often times they want to go through the steps quicker and that's a very very loaded question if I grew up you know tortured right yeah and it's going to be very very it's a lot of work to let go of like the Evodara and embrace embrace their bonam I just had a conversation with um man yesterday was today no Monday um about you know like he he I was just telling him basic concepts of of of he never heard of it and he grew up was never taught yeah he's like you mean you like he was like in tears that like there's a place for him in Yiddish a beautiful uh gorgeous place that you can feel so loved and so connected that that just because you did one of doesn't make you a go right you don't have to shake it's and that's where the shame comes in right and if I'm a sheets how well you think I'm going to learn in morning sh first I'm missing fat for sure right right and then how how's my morning s going to learn it's a downward spiral from there and what happens if trauma was not uh you know religious trauma it was more of a you know like a divorce or losing a parent or some type of trauma, it's easier. I mean, it is easier because, you know, if I can if the attachment figure could even be God, then that's that's okay because I know God's still there. God cares about me. God loves me. And yeah, they're here, they're there, but but also ultimately chuva is is is built into the system. That's that's a solid attachment figure, right? Let me tell you something. This was powerful stuff. Good. It was good stuff. We had a good conversation. I just want to thank you for showing up, you know. I want to thank you for showing up with honesty and with compassion and for the few good tools that you gave that someone could take home a little bit so maybe they can learn something because let's face it, marriage is not peaches and cream. No, it's not Instagram photos, right? Definitely not. The bottom line is that what I took out from this that um the struggle is real and there is no need for shame. It is okay to uh have struggles. It's okay to struggle. It's okay to struggle and you just have to, you know, become aware and and deal with it. Put one foot in front of the other and just uh just trailblaze. Yeah. Just Yeah. I mean, it's embrace embrace the struggle, you know, embrace it and and show up to it and then it'll it'll be something that's part of your, you know, something that grows you instead of crushes you. Thank you again. Thank you for coming. It was a pleasure talking to you. All right. Thank you. Thanks for having me.