The Struggle Podcast EP16 Devora Boroosan - Marriage and Intimacy Coach

This is something that I am so incredibly passionate about. Um, it's not spoken about often enough. You know, when somebody doesn't feel well or somebody has mental illness, people don't give them the same kind of understanding as they do somebody who walks in with a cast. Oh, you broke your arm. When I worked through COVID, right? People who had good marriages being together in the same house made it much stronger. people who didn't realize they had issues because they were so busy with day-to-day life. They found out. You think about it. Even 15 years ago, would anybody admit they went to marriage counseling? They wouldn't even admit it. That's where the struggle is. Stop blaming your spouse. What do you say to the people who say, "This man will never change." Don't be satisfied with who you are. If you're not growing, you're dropping. If you're not evolving, why is today any different than yesterday? And why should tomorrow be any different? Now, here's the million-dollar question. Okay. How do we keep the love alive? Okay, we have over here today a remarkable guest, a counselor all the way from Atlanta who is helping people strengthening the bonds of marriage later in life. We are going to talk about a a subject um that she is helping people find clarity. She is helping people find communication and hope. Her name is Dora Buran. Thank you so much for having me here. Welcome to the Struggle Podcast. I really appreciate being here. Now, here's the million-dollar question. Okay. How do we keep the love alive? That's the most important question. It's the most important question. I'm going to tell you how you don't. Okay. Okay. You don't keep the romantic passion between you, the intimacy and the vulnerability. If you start looking at your husband as another child, you don't, especially if your husband's sick and you are taking care of him or you're pushing him to take care of himself cuz he won't do it. You cannot feel love and respect if you're busy mothering him. And he cannot feel close and loving to you if he feels like he just got himself another mother instead of a wife. Wow. So, what you're saying is that your advice that a couple, a middle-aged couple over 50, if they find themselves in this situation that you described, they should start dating again. Bingo. I want every single man and woman out there to look at the person you're married to and remember that although you've evolved in so many different ways and your thought processes and perspectives have changed, the things that you fell in love with in the beginning or the things that you didn't know you were going to fall in love with but you learned to appreciate and respect in the beginning of marriage, those strengths are still there. that's still the person. And if you can't find it in your daladamos, don't go running off to who knows where in order to find satisfaction, date your husband again. Look for the good. Find the beauty in each other because it's still there. What's changed is how you're looking, not who they are. Right? It's the way it's the way you your mindset is. M now the question is what is a first little baby step for the two to start? What is that first step? Uh we want to start dating. Okay. There's a lot of steps because options are limitless, right? What I love is to tell a husband or a wife to stand at the other end of the room, maybe even in the other room, and just watch your spouse when they're not looking at you. Watch what they're doing. Find the beauty in what they're doing. Look how softly and gently they're speaking to their grandchild. Look how they're talking on the phone. and you hear how compassionate they are to the person on the other end. And you know that your husband or wife just made their day. Look at how they're willing, no matter how tired they are, to drop everything in good minion because these things are still important to them. Even though they could be making excuses, look with the love that they're preparing supper, even though it's just the two of you or some grown kids who are coming back later, whatever it is, and remind yourself. Start telling yourself this story. We're really good at telling ourselves negative stories, right? Start telling yourself a positive story. Start telling yourself, "Wow, I am so lucky who knew this is exactly what I needed. I needed to become aware that this was something that's important and I got enhanced by being married to somebody who is this way. I love this person. I respect them and remind yourself who they are without them seeing, without them knowing. This is personal work. Before you can date, you have to work on yourself and you have to remind yourself. I may think I know it all and my judgment may be because I'm right and he's wrong or I'm right and she's wrong, but you're not. You're blinded. You're blinded because you're drained and exhausted. And a man is drained and exhausted also. He's been working hard. Even if you've been working, a man is created from Adam, from his Adam's curse. He carries the responsibility of the family. Whether or not he's the one who is the primary bread winner, the heaviness of it sits on the man. He's tired, too. Right. And and after all, the beauty and after all there is uh a lot in common that they have. They brought the kids up together and they married off the kids together. They had the bad, the good and the ugly. So there is there it's it's there is something to if you really want to change the way you look at it is uh you can change your perspective. So that's where step number two comes in. Step number one is personal. How did I gain and grow from the beauty of this person? Step number two is what have we shared? Correct. Let's go back into the past. Let's think about how did we get to where we are today? We got to where we are today. Why am I tired? Because I raised this beautiful family with my husband, with my wife. It doesn't happen by itself. Exactly. We've done this together. We've had a partnership. And you know what? Sometimes that partnership wasn't great. It's true, right? Sometimes that partnership needs a lot a lot of working on. Sometimes the relationship people stay in a relationship that's mamish toxic because they feel they need to be there because otherwise they're shortch changing their children or the shim of their children or I can deal with it for them. It's not so bad. It's not abusive. It's not whatever. So, which is a big topic and which is a big topic that I'm not going to get into now. Although I could get up on my soap box, but no, we're not going to do that. Right. Right. Um you you uh mentioned before body image. Now how important is it for both to not let themselves go at that age? Um so they keep you you keep the you have to really learn the other person and understand of how how important is body image. You are so on target because that's where the next step comes in. Exactly. It's like you you you reading my brain here. You know this. You know how to keep a marriage strong. Um yeah, for starters, it's something that you should have been careful about all the time, right? People tell women that they should be careful. And women really work hard on making themselves look beautiful, feel good, have the other women say they're beautiful, and then they come home and they look slumpy for their husbands. They throw off their shadel. They throw off their clothing. They put on their sneakers. And the person you're supposed to look nice for, you don't put in effort for, right? And I think it's a novel in marriage all the time. That's putting your efforts in the wrong place. Even though they're exhausted with the kids through after a full day and some work, but uh this is it. This is what it's all about. Because my mother used to tell me all the time, my mother is a wonderful woman and a wonderful role model as is my father. But in this I learned from my mother. My mother would tell us each day before my father came home. I'm going to go right now and get ready for daddy. I need to go get ready for him because remember I chose daddy out of everyone else in the world. I love you and you were the bonus Hashem gave me, but him I need to prepare for each day. And she would go into the bathroom, put on a little bit of makeup, make her shait to look beautiful. And I know that a lot of it was the fact that she was doing it for him. And I think just as much it was important for us to know, she was role modeling for us that this was something that was very, very important. Was teaching by example. Exactly. Your husband is the most important. So if you're tuning into this now and you are at this stage of life, you can teach it to your children still even if you weren't so good at and if you were good at it you believe me your relationship gained from it. Um and that's true for men and for women something that I am so incredibly passionate about. Um it's not spoken about often enough. Correct. And when you don't have knowledge to arm you through the changes that go on in your body, in your husband, in your life, um in your marriage, you come across a lot of confusion. And the question I get asked most often is, "Am I normal? Is what I'm going through normal? It has to be. It's only me and nobody else." Because when things aren't spoken about, we live in our heads. and in our heads, we're the only ones struggling with this. So, I love to bring it out into the public to really talk about how you can take this time of life. And yes, we are talking about menopause and um and it's important that people know what menopause is. It's not necessarily understood symptoms of menopause. And I'm not going to get too much into physical because that's not the focus today, but it's important to understand what time of life this is. A person who is permenopausal is anywhere from a few years to 10 years up until they become menopausal. And menopausal means when you've had a full year without a period. You then hit menopause. During the penny pmenopausal period is when a lot of the symptoms come up that people associate with menopause. And along with that comes tons of Shilas, constant Shilas, which are real challenges to your marriage. But at that point, you're a little bit younger usually. And so there's enough to keep you busy. It doesn't necessarily affect your relationship in the same way. That being said, there are people who from certain medical treatments, certain cancers, um certain issues they have will go into medical menopause earlier. And so this is not something that is unheard of for a woman who could be, you know, 40, 43 years old, etc. Normally though, that's not the case. Menopause hits somewhere between 45 and 55, usually statistically speaking, somewhere around 53. And it's within three years of when your mother became menopausal. So this is something that's passed down. Um, and then everything after you hit that point is called post-menopausal. And it's just important that you understand the terms that we're using because it's something that's discussed a lot and not everybody really understands what that is. Um, what's interesting to understand is that our husbands also go through bodily changes and physical changes and hormonal changes. So a woman becomes menopausal um because of a change or a decrease in her estrogen. A man can become androp can can go into andropause. Like we go into menopause, they can go into andropause. Andropause has the actual andropause is when is has to do with the lowering of the testosterone which also happens earlier in life especially from 40 on. you lose 1% every year. Um, and some people really plummet at around 60. Okay? Um, sometimes even a little bit earlier. However, along with the changes that go on in your average man, there's also the changes that mimic andropause, but they're actually not because not every man has major major drops in testosterone to the point that that there's not enough testosterone for them to function um or to function a healthy way. And we'll talk about what what that means and why I'm even discussing this. Okay. Uh a lot of times the body because it's aging has and because we don't treat our bodies right from stress specifically from stress from obesity from eating the wrong foods especially sugar um from not eating balanced diets from not getting enough sleep. A lot of the physical and emotional changes that come up will mimic andropause but are not actually andropause. And that's important to know because they call it inter andropause. What that actually means is you have more control over what's going to be happening and that's going to be where I segue into what happens. Okay. So, so let's step step back. I it's very fascinating and interesting what you're saying. Very important. But let's let's just step um I would what kind of impact does menopause or or whatever is the the couple is going through what kind of impact does that make on marriage and and on intimacy? Excellent question. It makes a massive impact. It changes everything. Um, it it changes the physical comfort of a woman. She doesn't get enough sleep. There's night sweats. There's heat flashes. There's irritability. Um, there is changes in her feminine areas. There's dryness that makes that and and a thinning of the tissues that make intimacy uncomfortable. The libido can plummet. Um and most importantly all of this comes at a time where the physical differences and yes it could also bring along um anxiety or depression all that is true but along with the physical changes a woman moves into a whole new part of her life. You know these days they say 50 is the new 20 right? Why? Because especially in the firm community, yes, you still could have children at home at this time. That is true. You could have married and young kids at home, but the reality is you're not running after babies anymore. You're not busy in the same way as you were. physical exhaustion or the need to take care of every detail from lunch to re ram's notes that you need to sign to homework to all those things that you you're just in a different stage of life and all of a sudden a woman has a chance to breathe and where does she want to go when she can breathe not that she didn't love her life up until then I loved being a mother I loved every single minute of it but when I wasn't running after babies anymore I I remember thinking to myself, how did I do it? I don't even remember. And I found like most women, new parts of myself, right? Interest that I had that I had not only no energy, but I had no time to pursue. Forget about think about it. Pursue it. Forget it. There was no way I was going to be able to go and do these things. You you a a woman will find herself and the interest that she has in through an entirely different lens because she's not a mother, a housekeeper, a wife, a community member every minute of the day anymore. All of a sudden, there's a certain amount of quiet. There's a certain amount of alone time. and she rediscovers these things that invigorate her and make her want to pursue it. And so at 50, people start new careers. Somewhere around 50, it could be a little young, could be a little bit older, but they start new careers. They start new hobbies. They start wanting to go travel. They start hanging out with friends. And so women who've been trained their whole life to push through when you're sick because you can't tell a child, "I'm sorry. I can't take care of you, honey, because I don't feel so good today. today you need to take care of mommy. Like that doesn't go. It doesn't work. We show up no matter what. And because we've trained ourselves to show up, we may have all these physical symptoms, but that we leave for our marriage. Women tend to have the complaining about that or the distance in relationship more in their marriage where it's safe to have and every place else in the world they show up in full strength. Now you can understand why that would make a difference in a marriage. Yeah, for sure. Big difference. Now, as far as hormonal shift, what is happening uh when you have menopause? Um, is there a certain resentment coming in like the all of a sudden and we'll get into it a little bit later, but all of a sudden the two of them are like resenting each other like this bel like the relationship is being like they both get nervous from each other. What is what about that? So, it's interesting that you use the word nervous or resentment because I wouldn't say that nervous is necessarily accurate. There is a certain amount of resentment which I'll get into in a minute. But before the resentment comes the fact that not only did the women specifically not know themselves or their strengths because they never had a chance to use it but they don't know their husbands everything up until now and their husbands don't know them. Was it because they were distracted from life? Kids life was busy kids were busy. everything was about takas. Very often, especially in a good healthy marriage, uh there will be a space for women to share their emotions or men to share their emotions, to share a little bit of insecurities, to share um when life's events are very heavy, worry about moving, worry about a parent's health, things like that. But all of that is still takas. How do I get through the day when something is heavy in my heart? And in a good marriage, you know that your husband or wife is there to support you and that's a beautiful thing. So what you're saying is that if um there is certain resentment at this time of age and this this this time of life uh there was something wrong the the foundation was wrong. I mean something was in the beginning that that that the distraction was in the way. I don't think it was in the way. I think that's the rhythm of life. In the rhythm of life, you need to be present for the people who depend on you. And when you have a family or when you have a job in claw, then you show up husband and wife. The resentment comes from realizing that he doesn't know your dreams. And when a husband realizes that a wife doesn't know his dreams, doesn't know what makes him happy more than what's his favorite food and how does he like to relax when he comes home. So now you have a time to sit down and sit across each other and start uh start getting to know each other a little bit better. It's true. But what happens if the hormonal shifts are happening to your husband also and they show up differently? How in a man? Well, they show up differently because as a man gets a little bit older, he's not as relevant in his world. Very often it's factual. He's not as relevant. You can have people in professions where tech has caught up or medical knowledge has caught up. A Rebian where he doesn't have the same kind of energy that the younger Rabbam have. And so they're very well respected, right? But their opinions are asked, but they're not really involved in the same way. They're not as relevant. And so they need a lot more at home. A lot more attention just at the same time as their wife is going to run away and is antsy to start getting moving. So that's one thing that gets in the way. Another thing that gets in the way is the hormonal shift makes a man feel less manly. he is unable to perform in the same way that he performed before. The body doesn't cooperate in the same way. Now, sometimes again it's hormonal and sometimes it's stress and financial stress and marrying off kids and the financial stress of that and the planning of that and sometimes it's eating. But whatever it is, a man is not responding in the same way and he needs again a lot more reassurance because he needs to still know he's the man in the house. And in the bedroom within sexual interaction, a man has a very specific role. He's the maspia, you're the macado. And that's really, really important in the bedroom and outside of the bedroom. But if he doesn't feel so good about himself, especially if performance anxiety comes up, then he's not as willing to reach out to her. So on the one hand, she's feeling like we're not connecting. I don't really know him. He's not reaching out to me. I'm hitting a place where in public, everybody wants to be with me. And yet at home, my husband doesn't desire me. And it's not really true. He can love you the same way and desire you the same way and feel like you're beautiful the same way and love everything about you and appreciate everything about you that he did up until then, but he's not it's hard for him to sit and be willing to feel compromised as a man. And so once again, he needs a lot more of his wife, a lot more reassurance, a lot more attention, a lot more acknowledgement, a lot more respect. So the awareness is what's important. The wife must be aware that she is going through a particular time in her life, but also her husband is going through a his time in his life. And this is why exactly why I'm passionate about it because even those who don't know enough about menopause know it exists because it's a physical fact. You know, when somebody doesn't feel well or somebody has mental illness, people don't give them the same kind of understanding as they do somebody who walks in with a cast. Oh, you broke your arm. We're so sorry. Right. Well, that's because there's a physical fact right in front of them, right? Well, there is no physical fact for a man. There's symptoms. For a woman, it's obvious you have stopped functioning in the way that you have functioned up until now. The end. And it's just a physical fact. You're saying a man has feelings and emotions also. Right. A man has feelings and emotions and needs to be recognized both for his softness and his strength. Needs to be advocated for within the family. Um, a lot of times women when children are young will say, "I'm gonna tell Tati like he's the bad guy." And all of a sudden he really wants to have his place in the family where his wife is advocating for his goodness and his kindness and not only advocating to the family but really seeing it in him. How many times do I have couples come to me and say, "I get nothing done." The woman tells me, "Why? Because my husband wants me two inches away all the time." Why? He just wants your reassurance. It's a bid, as John Gottman says, like a bid for affection, a bid for attention. But it's real. Yeah, it's real. And it doesn't take so much. But unfortunately, I feel like women, although I speak to women and I have great respect for what women bring in the world, women kind of forget their husbands and they don't give them what they need at this time because they need more. They need a lot more. And we're tired. We have given to our children nonstop. We've given to our jobs. We've given to our communities. We are drained. We are exhausted. We just want to be able to be us, whatever that means, to be authentic to the things we always wish that we can do. And we have to remember you don't stop being a wife because your children get older. You don't stop being needed. You're your love and compassion and empathy and and allowing your husband to be vulnerable with an open heart and without judgment. We forget about that. We want our husband still to be that strength. And he continues to be that strength. We just don't see it anymore. That's where the resentment comes in. All of a sudden when women become very judgmental what their husband does is just not enough. Especially because often along with this both in men and in women come weight gain but in different ways. And so there is the loss of you know feeling good about yourself. Body image starts to affect both men and women. There's bone density changes. So strength is different both in men and women. Things you could depend on your husband for. Maybe now you don't want to anymore. There's a lot more illness in men younger than in women. Um mostly because I think women understand self-care more than men do. And so they get sick earlier cuz you know you got to take care of yourself to stay healthy. Um and that brings a whole another thing in. But no, no, no, but I'm going to get to that in a second. uh women go through more changes younger and there's more focus on a women's bodily changes and so there's a lot more chatter in their head about do I look good do I not am I fat am I skinny am I this am I that do I conform am I the same as everybody am I going to be attractive did my husband tell me I'm pretty right and there's always unfortunately there's way too much chatter in our heads about this men don't really start to think about it until suddenly they have nothing to wear because they've gotten beer bellies and then they hear from the doctor, well that's because you've got cardiovascular problems and that's because you've got cholesterol issues. You haven't been taking care of yourself. Now is the time for you to go and exercise. Um I think that at that point especially if it comes along with performance issues which often it comes handinand then body image becomes very important and again I think women expect their husbands to tell them all the time how beautiful they are and we forget to tell our husbands you're so handsome you know what I love how you look tonight I am a lucky woman right I would choose you all over again. And these are things we need to remember. We want to hear it. Don't you think your husband wants to hear it? Body image gets in the way because suddenly you don't recognize yourself. But if your spouse recognizes you as that same person who was appealing to them up until now, then all of a sudden body image isn't as important anymore. Do you need to take care of yourself? Absolutely. It's a must. It's an absolute must. By by nature, we're generous with criticism and stingy with compliments. That's that's who we are. But the awareness is important. The awareness that it's not a lot of people don't want to talk about it, but it is important from both sides of the aisle. You know, it's it is important. The awareness is everything. The mindfulness that comes along with awareness is even more. and the fact that even if somebody was in a toxic relationship or their communication wasn't very good up until now to look at this as the most incredible opportunity to work on your communication and and to be honest it's a little bit harder. It's harder because there is no calendar. There's no need a calendar, right? And when you move out of a needsa calendar, you don't have planned times that you know you're going to have each other, whether it's physical, whether it's emotional through the needs of cycle, we have times where all we could do is talk. And so we hopefully at that point have worked on a certain amount of communication. And when there's physical, we give each other as much as we can. But when there's no calendar anymore, you have to be much more mindful. So the awareness is really really important. But if you don't do anything about it, then what comes up is resentment. Well, why do I have to do all this? Shouldn't need it up until now. Well, yes, she did. Or yes, you did. And you may not even have noticed it or recognized it. But without a need to cycle, it actually gives you more time to recognize that we've got some issues. It's almost like, you know, when when I worked through COVID, right? People who had good marriages being together in the same house made it much stronger. And people who had issues made it much worse. But people who didn't realize they had issues because they were so busy with day-to-day life. They found out. They sure found out. You better believe it. Well, this time of life shows you where the cracks are that you didn't even realize were there. And you have to put real effort into it. You have to put real effort into the physical. Now, this is brilliance. Some people could look at this as something that is heavy. That's hard. Oh, no. My body's changing. I'm fat. I'm I'm dry. I'm uncomfortable. I can't perform. What an incredible opportunity for a husband and wife to talk to each other and to allow our spouses to be vulnerable and to give them support and reassurance and kindness and remind them about all the things that you love about them. Not only in spite of, but that maybe I don't even notice those things because the rest of your amazingness blinds me. And when I notice it, it's only because I love you and I want to take care of you and I want you to be healthy cuz we have till 120. Wow. You know, when you think about your marriage up until now, it's held a lot. A lot. You've gone through a tremendous amount of history. But then think about it a minute. If I'm talking to a 60-year-old, they've only lived half their life. Yeah. You want to be together till 120. How are you going to sustain your health, your marriage, your communication, your physical shows of love? We want you to be making love all the time in whatever form that is, verbal, emotional, physical, and physical doesn't have to be ending in any specific way. This is your chance to cuddle, to show appreciation, to remember. Oh, when I married him, I loved his eyes. I haven't had a minute to look at his eyes up until now. I just want to look at you. I just want to look at your eyes again. I want to appreciate that I can get lost in them. Wow. It's beautiful. It's a It's a beautiful thought and a beautiful awareness. But let me ask you something. What is the divorce rate for people after 50? It could make you cry. It can literally make you cry because here's the first chance they really have to celebrate being with each other. And I didn't just tell you something that isn't easy to do. What I just told you is pretty complicated. As a matter of fact, it's pretty uncomplicated, right? It's simple. This is what you were doing to your kids every single day since they were born. You were supporting. They were encouraging when they felt badly about themselves. You built them up. It is just chapter two in your life. It's just chapter two. And yet it doesn't happen because when they get hit with that awareness, they get hit with a resentment of I want more. I'm a person, too. She never recognized. She never appreciated. I don't need to stick around for the kids anymore. Up to the point for divorce. Even up to the point for divorce. Hashem therapy, counseling, coaching, mentoring has become so well accepted these days. So well accepted. As a matter of fact, I have clients who tell each other, "Oh, I think you should go see, you know, Dvora because we went to her and you think about it, even 15 years ago, would anybody admit they went to marriage counseling, they wouldn't even admit it. It became a fad now." Now totally a fad. and a tashm I hope to see that the divorce rate or and it's not even necessarily always divorce sometimes it's just complete emotional divorce like they're not officially divorced but they live in the same house like two ships passing in the night they don't see each other they don't talk to each other they don't share anything with each other they just live together because they've always lived together they live together because financially it makes sense or they live together because insurance-wise it makes sense or mortgage wise it makes sense or because it doesn't occur to them not to be together cuz they always were, but not only don't they interact so much, but at that point they may feel like they don't even like each other. So like what kind of life is that? That's not what they want. And that's so sad. And it doesn't take so much to build up positivity. Kamay punim punim. If you give it out, you'll get it back. Stop blaming your spouse. So that brings me to the idea of a person to stop um being so into themselves as far as co and money and uh the the children and the this and that complaints constantly complains. How does someone at that age change their mind into giving and growing and looking at the world from a different uh perspective completely? That's where the struggle is because we're creatures of habit. Yeah. All human beings are and we go back to our same default modes even when we know they're stupid and they're wrong and they make no sense and I've repeated them our whole marriage and it never got us anywhere. So why do I think it's going to continue now? And we hope that along with age and and the ups and the downs of raising a family that we've gained some wisdom. Um we hope. But but what is what if what do you say to the people who say this man will never change? So what would I say for starters? There's a certain amount of acceptance. If this person hasn't changed until now, it's like wishing your parents would be somebody different. They were the way they were before you ever came in this world and they continue to be that as they raised you and all of a sudden now you want them to be different. So your husband or your wife may have grown in a good way or diminished in a way being married to you depending on what kind of spouse you are, right? But essentially the parts of them that are not so strong probably never will be. I can want to be me. I can want to be the most organized person in the world. I can will it. I can practice it. I can learn everything about it. Mashem, we're going on 40 years. My husband and I hashem. He could pay me a million dollars today and it's still not going to happen. It's not going to happen. You can't take a person's nature and expect it to change. Any change that comes comes because they want to change themselves themselves and you're still working with a certain tea. Whether that's tea's organization, whether it's anger, whether it's yes, you can learn anger management, but you're still managing your anger. You're still a person who struggles with anger. So to that person, you're saying acceptance. I'm saying acceptance that this is who they are. Not acceptance of being yelled at, not acceptance of being ignored, not acceptance of abuse, acceptance of I can't make them be somebody they're not. Correct. I can fine-tune. I can help them help themselves if they want. If they want, if they want, right? Um, but the first step has to be acceptance. The second step has to be remember you have a voice in this marriage. It's a partnership, right? If you have a need, your spouse is not a mind readader, right? And he never meets your needs because he is or because she is. Maybe so, but maybe it's because they don't know what it is that you need. Learn to communicate effectively and keep out these six things. Okay, this is you keep this out, you will have communication that works. Keeps out blame, shame, guilt, fingerpointing, criticism, and complaints. The blame and the shame is blaming or blaming yourself, blaming the other. Shaming is yourself or the other. Well, it's important both ways, but very often in in a heated conversation or in something that you've been wanting to speak about for so long and finally you do, at that point, we kind of take all our own blame of ourselves and our own shame and we kind of shove it under the rug because it's uncomfortable. And if we don't shove it under the rug, we flip it on our spouse. And so when you say, "Is it about myself?" Yeah, it could be that it's something I blame myself for. But let's say for example, there's somebody who has a they're struggling with the child off the derek and they think, "What could I have done differently?" And they think about this a lot and it makes them feel horrible about themselves. They blame themselves. They shame themselves. They they feel guilty. They do all these things to themselves. They criticize their parenting. And at some point if you want to stay sane, right, you could either work on growth or work on communication with your child or speak to an expert or a r how do I help this child or you can say it's too hard for me to be comfortable looking at myself in the mirror and look my husband's a parent too and look what he didn't do and look what or look what she didn't do and she could have done this. Why am I blaming only myself? You this and you that and you that. So I think it's a very delicate dichotomy that it's like a dance right that we have where we're trying to both live with ourselves and we're trying to assign responsibility to somebody else because holding all that responsibility ourselves is hard. And when you get to this stage of life where hormonally, right, you're both much more vulnerable, both much more emotional. And again, very often this does come along with low-level depression for a woman, deeper depression for a man. By the way, a woman kind of gets melancholy. And a man's depression shows up hormonally most often as a lack of motivation. Mhm. Now, if a woman is struggling with expressing herself or with feeling guilty about something and her husband doesn't have the motivation to get himself up and moving to do the things he always did, not only that, he doesn't find joy anymore in the same way. It's not a sadness. In a man, it looks different. In a man, it looks like lack of motivation and a lack of being able to experience joy. It's a low-level depression, but it's a different type of depression. And there's a anxiety can show up in both men and women, but it shows up more often in men. So, I was going to ask you, how important for couples like this after 50 or older, how how important is structure? How important is for them to to you know have a schedule and and you know if some retired and some you know are doing part-time jobs but a job or volunteering is that that would help as far as the SK they used to have a schedule running with the kids and the business and everything it's a whole different thing. So structure is important and before the structure you got to take a good honest look at yourselves and say okay let's accept again we're back to acceptance right before we went on to the next step we said it's got to start with acceptance so when you're starting with acceptance you say okay this is my limitations right now and this is your limitations right now and we want to make this work we don't want to be one of those couples who suddenly thought they had things good and find that there are all these cracks um we don't want to be arguing doing all the time. We don't want to be ignoring each other all the time. Let's look at our limitations, be honest about them, accept them, and yes, put a structure in place. What is that structure look like? So, the first important part of that structure is set up rituals. Whether it means a you have coffee together in the morning, whether it means you go for a walk in the afternoon, whether it means you check in on each other two or three times a day, whether it means that Shabas day you have people, but Shabas night it's just the two of you so that you have time to communicate. the same way as our children have lived with certain rituals that they except as our family whether it's our family minhug or just the way we do things it's not necessarily minhug my kids come to me for seder and they know at the end of seder we sing adonol lam and yigdal that's part of our family misshug it's not and we do it in a few different tunes because this was aa's tune and this was mommy's tune and this was right and and it brings family generations down well you want to have that legacy and that bonding. Find rituals that you pass along. That's the first structure that you put in place because that gives you something to look forward to every single day. The second thing you put into place would be a date night. And a date night is important to have every week. And that is Tuesday is our night, Wednesday is our night. Whatever it is, you try and make it a time. And if something else comes up that cannot be changed like aa you make sure that you schedule it for another day of that week and that's when phones go off. Phone being by the way now that is a surprise to any of our listeners here. The number one issue that comes more than anything that comes to my table is issues with one or the other spouse being addicted to their phone and them feeling not heard, not seen, not understood, totally ignored, and certainly not prioritized. And it's funny because younger people live on their phones because they know how to use everything, do everything on their phones. And so it's an appendage. But when you talk about an older person who's just really discovering it in the last 5 10 years, it becomes an addiction. Mammish an addiction. Why? And I don't use it lightly. Your brain starts to need that instant gratification. And then just sitting around and talking to your spouse and giving your spouse attention isn't instant gratification enough. It's not it's it's it doesn't give you that do instant dopamine hit because it takes time to have a meaningful conversation. Learn to put your phones away. So when you're at a date night, your phone is not on silent and you keep looking at it. What did I miss? Because then you're not present anymore. Turn off your phones. Spend time with each other. Make that date important. The next thing I would say is have scheduled intimacy. It's really, really important. That doesn't mean you can't be spontaneous sometimes, right? But you want to have scheduled intimacy. And the reason is as you get older, it takes longer to get excited. It takes longer to get ready for bed. It takes longer to tie up the loose ends. And it takes real preparation. And not only that, because it's the two of you, it takes longer to get your spouse in the emotional state. Mhm. That they know that this is not just a planned physical interaction, but this is a connection. This is a oneness that I look forward to all week long. And I'm going to show you that because all day long, I'm going to recognize the good things. that you shouldn't do it every day, but there is a concerted effort because what happens is especially for women where 50% of desire is is emotional connection and and that's a funny thing I want to go into for half a second. Yeah. Right. Because I feel like it's really really important. desire. There's there is for men there's spontaneous desire and for women it's responsive and the response can be to certain types of touch or touch altogether. But more important than that, it's the emotional response. It's the response that you have to your husband being really sweet, really recognizing your effort, really seeing that you look beautiful, really noticing so that you feel relevant and you feel prioritized and you feel cherished and loved. Somebody else gives that to you, who cares? I can go out there and be told I'm amazing. I'm wonderful. I'm beautiful. I'm this and that's not who I want to hear it from. But if my husband can give this to me, then automatically he is more desirable to me. And I am going to respond to the touches as will every single woman out there. And so, you know, it's a funny thing. One time a woman came and complained to me and she said, "I don't understand. My husband treats me like I'm a piece of meat." And I turned to the husband and I said, "Wow, that's amazing. Kakavo to you. You treat her like a piece of meat. That's incredible. How do we take care of meat? How do we cook meat? We think about it ahead. We take time to take it out of the freezer. We plan. We let it thaw. We massage it with the spices. We get it all ready. We tenderize it. When we cook it, we sear it first to our hot and spicy. And then we slow cook it and then and then we let it sit for a while before we can enjoy it. I said if you can actually treat your life wife life like a piece of meat that is not bad. You're going to be in great shape. Let me ask you, what message do you have for a woman who feels exhausted, isolated, disconnected, overwhelmed, and she wants to get her she wants to get her life back? That is the most important question out there for women. And it's also the most important question out there for men because I'll be honest with you, women are way more complicated than men. way more complicated. Um there's layers and layers and layers to the way a woman thinks and feels and um and a woman generally needs to talk out how she feels for her even to know how she feels. Women are much more complicated. So if a man can understand what it takes for a woman, that is a plus for a marriage and a woman will understand it too. Get yourself some friends. Spend time with friends. Your husband can't meet your every single need. So it is important. It's like these husband there are husbands who are like I am your friend and do not leave me here and you you have me. Why do you need people on the outside? You're saying just the opposite. I'm saying exactly the opposite for your mental health. It's important for your mental health. It's important that you have other friends. You know you when you think about what is a friendship? People don't have one friend. People have multiple friends that meet multiple needs. You're the one I have fun with areas of their life. They share you you share yourself a different and then all of a sudden you're supposed to depend on your husband to meet your every single need. You it's it's you can't of him. It takes a toll on him and it takes a toll on you because there are things you can't share with your husband. I'm not talking private details about your marital life. That's not what you share unless you're in an abusive situation or you need help with a perspective shift that you can turn to a friend to. But private things we're not talking about. Um, but you need the light side of life so that you bring your best self to your husband. So, number one, go and get yourself friends. Make sure you spend time with friends. You need a date with your husband. You need a weekly date with friends. Get together. It's very important. And at the same time, remember your friends are not your priority. Your husband is your priority. You're smoozing on the phone with your friends and your husband walks in. Say in front of him, "Uh, it was so nice talking to you, but my husband just walked in. I'll talk to you later." And hang up the phone. Right? And they will understand. They will understand. Not only that, your husband will know that he's prioritized. I think that that is so important for men to understand that this is healthy for women because they want to be everything. Why? And this is an important question and again I circle back to this because there's marriage and then there's marriage in an older age after menopause or dur after andropause. Why? Because a man who struggles with motivation and a man who can't find joy finds his world getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And the things he was once involved with, he's not involved with anymore. And it's a slow progression. So he may not notice it. It doesn't happen overnight. Like a woman hits that stage overnight. A man, this is a slow progression. He may not realize that his world is getting smaller and smaller. Of course, when you're much older, many of your friends are not around anymore. They've moved to be with their children or they've passed away or they're sick and you may even change kasas, whatever it is. But his world has gotten smaller. And so you become so much more important, but really you can't satisfy his every need either, right? And so the best thing you can do is to set things up where both of you are going out and obviously within a firm construct, a Torah construct, he's going to be hanging out with the men and you're going to be hanging out with the women. Help him socialize. Tell him I don't need to start the second sh is over. Stay for kittish. Enjoy your friends. Don't yell at your husband for coming home late after work. be happy that he staged smoozing. Right? This is critical for a man's mental health and for a marriage's continued growth and connection because neither one of you could be everything for the other. And even if the reasons are different, the reality is still the same. He wants you to be everything and you want him to be everything. And it doesn't work, right? We're not We don't live in an island. How many mitzvah do we have that were we can't do if we live on an island by they they involved claw you have to right be involved it's really really important important now let me ask you a question is it appropriate or is it a job for children to support the parents at this age because they feel a little bit respons not responsible but the am is part of it but also they help the parents at that age. So there's real parameters around kibim and a lot of the things that people consider kibim are not actually within the parameters of the actual obligation. I was going to ask you about it but so I'm going to start with that. Yeah. Make sure you know what the parameters are. Number one. Um, and it's important just so that you're real clear what you are choosing to do and what you're to do, you're obligated to do. It's really, really important. Number one, also there's a car to there's a place for appreciation for everything that your parents have done for you up until now. And there's a kindness and an appreciation in being able to give back to them. But that appreciation is not a responsibility because when children feel it's a responsibility, they start to parent their parents, right? And as much as a parent doesn't like their spouse parenting them, they like it even less when their kids parent them 100%. It's not a healthy dynamic. And so, what can you do to be helpful? If you have this feeling of I want to get back to my parents. I know they're having a hard time physically doing this. I know that whatever. So, there's a few different things. Number one, stay out of their marriage. Don't show up unannounced. That doesn't mean you can't stop by to say hello. It means have a time that you show up. Well, give them the privacy. Give them the privacy they need to build their marriage to grow their marriage without constant adult children and grandchildren around where they once again have to not say what they feel and swallow their feelings and swallow their thoughts because they don't have enough privacy to have those conversations. And they could be private conversations that they don't want children to hear. How many people are private about their health issues? Doesn't mean that a couple doesn't need to talk about plans. They could talk about changing a will. They could talk about maybe wanting to move into a retirement community or moving altogether. They could talk about how they're a sandwich generation and they're stuck still taking care of their parents. There's actually a respect that you have for the parents. This is the kibav to respect the parents alone time or peace. Exactly. And it's really important to remember that just because your parents are older doesn't mean that their couplehood and the communication that that entails suddenly disappears. So you can do it out of the best intentions and from so much love, but you could be getting in the way. So, you know, some people stop home every day on the way home from work just to say hello. Yes, that's awesome. They know that's when you're going to be coming in, come over for breakfast. That's amazing, right? Invite a parent out to go out with you or both your parents. Yeah. Right. You can do those. Those are ways of giving back. Offer to help them with their finances. The children to offer the parents. children can offer parents, you know what? I know this is a really lot to take care of. If you want, I'm available to help you sort it out. That's beautiful. Why not? You ever tried navigating red tape, the bureaucracy of Medicaid for Medicare, for example? That's not so easy. You want a young person who can pop on a computer and take care of it and speak on the phone to someone else. That's a wonderful gift you can give to a parent. Beautiful. Now let me flip it on the other side. This elderly couple now who is living alone, what should they know as far as a relationship with adult kids? Because as children there's a certain relationship and now the these children are already married and have their own families. This is too much. I don't have to see everything. You don't have to comment on everything. It's just let them live and keep the relationship top level. You know, little Schlimala is not little anymore. Yeah. And little Ri is not little anymore. And as much as you remember the day they were born, they're adults now. And they've been through a lot. And they have developed their own perspectives on life and their own ways and their own ways of relating to each other. And it, you know, it's your job to raise them and give them everything you can from your wisdom to boundaries to protecting them to keeping them safe. And at some point, you have to let go and let them be them and let them know that you're there for anything and everything they will need. You will be their biggest fan. You will support them in the decisions that they make. They you didn't just like they didn't stop being your child, you didn't stop being their parent, right? And if you can go about it in this way, now that actually causes a lot of problems, by the way, huge problems, lots of problems. And it doesn't cause as many problems between the parents and the kids. Except it could give you an ulcer watching the way you raise your your kids raise your grandkids or the way they speak to you. This is quiet and you step back and you say, "Okay, I'm gonna have to let them be. I am not helpful if I'm the mother-in-law that gets in the way or the mother." That's critical. And how about with the in-laws? This is you see with children is one is is one relationship, right? And then there is the the son-in-law, the the daughter-in-law. Is there the and the you know where's they have the same rules. They should have the same rules. And you should love, and I'm going to get to this, but I want to go back to what we said for a minute ago. First, you got to love your son-in-law or daughter-in-law simply because they exist in your child's life and they love your child. You don't have to like them. You have to care about them the exact same way. We always love our kids. We don't always like them. We always love ourselves. We don't always like them. There are times where personalities may not meet. Don't get in the way if he he or she is making your son or daughter happy. Right? Celebrate the fact that they're there making your child happy. When is it appropriate for a parent to raise their voice and say when they you see that's a very fine line. When is it appropriate for a parent say I don't like what I see and I'm going to say something? My grandfather used to say if it's dangerous or user. That was it. Okay. So, let's define dangerous. Um, well, before you define dangerous, you have to be on the same page as your spouse. And when I said it can cause problems, it's because the same way as takes fine-tuning when children are young and you learn to work with your husband or wife on the best way to raise your children and who does what role and how you back each other in front of the kids no matter what. The same as when they're older and we have strong feelings about things. So what you're saying is you have to be on the same page. the husband, the the elderly couple, the two parents have to be on the same page before they approach something that they don't like when Yeah. If somebody sees something that they are concerned about, right, go back home to your spouse and say, you know what, I'm concerned about this. What do you think? Maybe it was a trigger for you, right? Maybe it reminded you of something that was hard for you when you were younger. Maybe it was something that your parent did to you and you said you were never going to do and now you're watching your child do it. Say don't jump to conclusions and do do don't don't run into the wall like that. Just think it think it through. Think it out. Think it through together with your husband so that or your wife so that you can back each other. That's the first place you want to go before you say anything. And then you think is it dangerous and is it user? So is it dangerous really to the marriage? So for example, I don't understand this because it's not my nature, right? But I see couples that tease each other or that make jokes at each other's expense and it doesn't seem to bother them at all. They laugh it off. They laugh it off and they laugh it off because maybe that's their sense of humor. Or maybe they've just put up with it for so many years now it's just the dynamics of their relationship and they can't even imagine something different. Just because it bothers you doesn't mean it's wrong for them or it's dangerous for their marriage. And that's where getting a second perspective is so important. That's why you don't just jump in. You go and you speak to your spouse. You think okay is this something that's just a part you check yourself you check yourself what is dangerous you see a spouse being abusive you see a spouse severely mis or your own child even severely neglecting a need of of one of their children or not seeing anything not seeing what it is you're working so hard on your homework with your child and I'm sitting here watching it and you are setting him up for failure. Mhm. You're expecting him to get it right away because you don't have the patience to be the one to do it. You're expecting him to get it the one it right away, but you're not seeing because you love him that he has learning disabilities and he's struggled. You're not seeing it. Right. Makes a lot of sense. That would be a place that once parents discuss it together, they could go and speak to a child and a child is sometimes appreciative. Correct. And sometimes not. Yeah. Sometimes they don't want to hear it. It's still your place as a parent to bring it up and to say I'm putting into your hands. You're the parents. I can't I can't tell you what to do. I just want to tell you this is what I've observed. What do you think? What do you think? I really really don't like the way your wife speaks to you. Right. Maybe she had a hard day today when I saw it. And maybe you understand it in a way that I don't. I'm just sharing with you what I've observed. Am I sharing it with you the first time I heard it, the second time I heard it, the 30th time I heard it? Or do I finally have the right as a parent to share it with my child? say something when I see there's a pattern and she is nullifying or he is nullifying himself in a way that they've lost themselves. This isn't the person that I know. That's where parental instinct can kick kick in can kick in and say, you know what, this is what I'm observing. I know there's a lot I don't know and understand because I'm not in your marriage and I'm not in your bedroom. Right? Then there are much more delicate spaces when your children are not having kids. Is this infertility or you know is this because they decided it together? Is this because they're having issues in the marriage? Is it important to go approach the kids or just wait for the kids to come and tell you if they feel comfortable? And this is an example of something you don't ask, right? You wait for them to come to you. And that's why I gave it as an example because there's two different things. That's not dangerous. That's not user. And I've really in incorporated this into the way that I really truly believe that as parents and as in-laws, you have to approach your children. They're adults. They know hushbanos in their life. If they need your help, they will come to you. And also, you can't tell them what they should do. Even if a if a child's in a place of abuse, you still can't tell them what to do. Ultimately, it will be their choice. You're not kidnapping them and sweeping them away. Right. Right. They have to decide what's their capacity. What can they live with? What can't they? And when it gets too much, if you just love them unconditionally, they will come to you. Right. And they will allow you to help them through the healing. But if you push yourself in, right, then you're not a safe person to come to. And then who do they really have? And so you have to be the one who unconditionally loves them, you have to be the safe space. And if you haven't gotten along with your parents up until now, or it's always been a complicated relationship, in the same way that this is where you're working on your marriage, this is where you want to work on your parenting. Right. As a matter of fact, what you're saying at that age, it's it's not a bad time to work on your parenting now. Exactly. But you're not parenting little kids. You're parenting adult kids. That is a very important message. Yeah. Now, let me ask you, we're talking about this elderly couple now. The Zadei and the Bobby. You're talking elderly. Elderly because we're talking 60s. Yeah. Most of us are young still and we turn 60. We all gonna get there. Um, what is Aidi and Baby's job? What is their role for the Inichl? Where is where is that line being drawn? Because I remember years ago used to be that the Zadis and the Babies were like part of the Inl's life. You know, they were teaching the kids, they were learning the kids. I don't know if they were hitting the kids, but they were like this was like this is not how you do it. And this today is a little bit of different world. But what is a Zadei and Babby's job? I love that question because the way especially young couples raise their kids today is like pop psychology. Children have feelings. They need space. They have a right to choose the things they like. I don't know. I had to have at least two bites of every food that showed up on the plate in front of me. And if I didn't like it, then I could say I didn't like it, right? No such thing anymore. My child is a picky eater. Now, that's not to say there isn't the child who is indeed a picky eater and they do indeed have sensory issues or I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the the the spaces where if Gra Bobby and Zadeie get involved with the discipline or get involved with the attitudes towards the children in that way, they're going to be disinvited from being involved with the children. Correct. Even if the parents still love Bobby and Zadeie Yeah. Yeah. We're not letting them. Right. And and I'm sure there's lots of perspectives on this. I for myself in my grandparenting and I think this is healthy for everyone. But again, there's going to be lots of people who disagree with me. That's okay. Right. I believe that because there are so many strong feelings of parents to children these days on their turf. You follow the children's your your children's wishes wishes. Not only that, but it is consistency for the grandchildren that on their home turf, you follow the wishes of the children. Um on your turf, you claim the right to give them whatever sugar they want, to give them whatever candies, to have whatever toys you don't send at home. But you don't lie to your children. You let them know this is what I want to do at my house. I know this is something you're sensitive to. So I'll give them two Shop treatment 15. I'm not giving them a big giant peck full of stuff. I'm going to make sure there's carrots and cheesesticks in there along with the fruit roll-ups and right. You don't like gum because it sticks to their clothing. Okay. You know, but you you you have find a little bit of balance. And I think the most important job is to let your children and your grandchildren know that there is unconditional love for them and for the children, not the grandchildren, that there is unconditional respect for the effort they put into their parenting. So you don't have to always agree, but there's unconditional respect for the effort that they're putting into their parenting. And so therefore, even if you don't agree, you will stick to their rules. I think every child needs to know they are loved just because. I love just because presents. What do you need a birthday present for? Well, a birthday present. I agree with actually. I agree with the birthday present because thank you, Hashem, for bringing you into this world. I was born to be your grandmother and you were born to be my grandchild. I love that. That's a cool celebration. Celebrate a birthday, but A lot of the other have to I would much rather get just because present. Just because I love you. Just because you're awesome. I love it. Just because I am so happy when you're here. Come pick something from the just because box. Right. Excellent. Now, this is a big one that I want to ask you something. What should a mother-in-law, how should she respond if her daughter-in-law is disrespectful to her? Now, she is in a dilemma. She doesn't want to rock the boat. But if she finds a daughter-in-law or a son-in-law who is disrespecting her, how should she respond? Okay. So, that is much more sensitive because the way a mother-in-law responds to the way a son-in-law or a daughter-in-law speaks to them can get between the shell and bias. For starters, raise your children to stick up for each other. Family is off limits. Family is always off limits. You don't belittle a spouse's family. family is off limits. You can have whatever thoughts you want. So, what are you saying? What I'm saying is for starters, those who still can raise their children properly, raise them properly. We don't talk about another person's family. So, that means that for talking to a young couple here that if this the the daughter-in-law is disrespectful, the husband, which is the son from this family that he's disrespectful for, should stand up and tell this is not a go. So this son, if let's say there's a daughter-in-law who's disrespectful, correct? The son can remind there could be something that can bother you and you can speak to me about it and I can take care of it. But this is my mother and we can't talk this way. And it's no different, by the way, when a mother-in-law or a father-in-law talks down about a daughter-in-law or something. Correct. Correct. This is my wife and you can't this has no place. my wife this way or you can't speak to my husband this way. There is no place for this. In reality, a daughter-in-law who is disrespectful to a mother-in-law is that way because of whatever reasons they have, whatever triggers they have. So, does that mean you're not responsible for treating your daughter-in-law properly? No. Listen to what's being said. Think about it. Am I doing something wrong? Am I not? But don't make it personal. Almost look at it as this is a for what Hashem is giving me to help me work on the meadows that I need to work on. They're showing me where I need to work. Don't make it personal. As soon as you make it personal, you're getting in between the shias. And as soon as you make it personal, you respond in a less than beautiful way. shall we say? Correct. Um and and not only that, but there there becomes where instead of you being the advocate for the shambias within the family, you are the cause of a disruption in. And if you can remember again, let's break that down. Number one, you're he everybody hears what they need to hear and learns lessons from the people they need to learn. Hashem gives usim look at them as a number two look at them as wonderful because they appreciate and love about your child every day what needs to be appreciated and loved and we davin that they should see even more. So look at them again as a braha whether you like them or not they like them. Okay? Right? But there's a there's another there's another way to think about it that if a person is disrespectful, it gives a little bit away the character of the person. That's absolutely true. Which which rolls over to the marriage and then what? That's what I'm saying. There's nothing to do. It's just a fact. You do. It is a fact. But I'm not saying the facts change. I'm saying we have to work on our mindset. We have to put a complete paradigm shift into the way we internalize it. Um because just like in marriage where every interaction you have, you have to think. We don't want knee-jerk reactions. We don't want to just say what we think without thinking about it. We want to think, does this bring us closer? Does this help their marriage? Is this making us closer? Is this making our marriage stronger? You want to do the exact same with your children and your grandch and and your in-law children, right? Is this making our relationship stronger, right? And then you also have to remember that we always have a certain bias towards our children and we always want to have a bias towards our grand our our um in-law children and some of us are lucky enough to have amazing in-law children and we have a bias towards them too because they're awesome and some people don't have that braha and they have to work on developing it. But it's important to develop because this is the person your child is married to and nothing you're going to say is going to change that but things you are going to say can disrupt that can make things worse. So work on yourself for damage control. Interesting. Good stuff. Um what about uh kids, children, married children find that the father, mother or the mother-in-law, the speaker are difficult and they have maybe personality disorders. It's really difficult that racking having of the entire family. How should they deal with it? Is is no contact ever a solution? I mean, is how should if they if they see they tried everything and they still see that there's toxicity, how should a daughter-in-law or or son or deal with with parents or, you know, we're talking about middle-aged people who never worked on themselves or developed a certain personality disorder. It happens a lot. And you see this for your own, you know, people will tell you it's for my own mental health. No contact. It's huge. There's a lot of steps till no contact. There's a lot of steps till no contact. Um, parents get between marriages from mental health in a very big way. There are parents who are narcissistic, parents who are are depressed, schizophrenic. They there are parents who have all sorts of illnesses. um who have spent a lifetime dumping on their children, making their children responsible, making their children come in and save them. There is so many different dynamics in a parent child relationship that children need to set boundaries for starters, boundaries within the interactions of their life because you want to remove the inshment of unhealthiness. That's where kibava comes in. It's important. Exactly. And that's why I started with the parameters of kiba. Right. And when you have a parent who has mental health issues, the boundaries that you're setting are with the covet that you want to show them, but remembering that the priority starts with your family. Your responsibility is your family. You're supposed to leave your parents and go right to your husband. You're supposed to make the new focus your own family. And so if what needs protecting is your family from the negativity or the poison that this parent brings in, you do what it takes to protect your family. But that's an entirely different story than not keeping in touch with your parents or than estrangement, right? Because and that could be its own whole topic, right? Because number one, if it brings toxicity to your family, it if it's the parents of the wife, for example, and the negativity or the crit criticalness or the criticism brings down your children and changes the whole well, you may not want them in your house when your kids are around, but that doesn't mean that the wife cannot be in touch with her parents anymore. There's just boundaries. We will go out together. You can come over when the kids are asleep. You can see the children during a birthday party where there's joy. I'd love you, too. And then set up what you would love the parent to do. Give them a job. Tell them how amazing they are. Today, I want you to make them feel like a million dollars. Sometimes they can do it, sometimes they can't. You learn from trial and error what kind of boundaries you need to set. All right. But then in in crazy cases that I heard from people and these parents are pinning the kids against each other, they become sibling rivalry. Um yisha problems you were mentioning a will before they're signing in cutting them out cutting them in all these things. And there's one child who takes advantage of that fact that you know they the understand what the parent needs and that's why they get everything. It becomes very toxic. So for a person who has middle of raising children or middle of having a trying to grow myself where can I get involved with this this uh toxicity and people would think for my mental health uh you know what maybe I should stay away for now. So it's difficult it's very difficult and it's so difficult and I get this all the time and I hear it all the time and neb it exists. Yes it does in many more varieties than the examples that you gave now. Yeah. Your first step is you have to protect your spouse. Your second step is you have to protect your family. Right? Your third step is that you protect yourself. So if you're able to not be estranged from them and set the proper boundaries where you can be civil, right, and kind but not share the details of your life so that they're not pinking you against each other. Right. Right. See if there's a way you can find a solution first. Yeah. See if there's a way. And I guarantee you if they're this way now when you're adults, they were this way when you were a child, too. This isn't new. This didn't just suddenly happen. You've learned coping mechanisms and therefore you as their child, you know, I was saying before the daughter, for example, could still be in touch with her parents. Yes, you can still be in touch with your parents and you can set boundaries, right? You can look it's not different with divorced parents and as coming up what are we going to do and these are so many different topics than where we started. What you're saying is that we have to just do ishadas first put in the effort and try to make it work. See if you you know what you can what you can do and then you take you you know with guidance you see um what's very interesting is that um and this is for older people also this is uh we know that what we spoke today is you know with the feet on the ground this is logic but we have to understand that without believing in all these things are you can't make it work So what's your take on an older couple who wants to become a little bit more spiritual and you know they get older right now and even maybe they were busy maybe they they didn't focus on that so much and explain how that would help if you bring that in to what we just discussed today um about believing believing that believing that everything is meant to be looking at wills and looking atases and looking at the siblings taking for and everybody running for love that you can't get. But if you know who you are and you build yourself up and you have this relationship with them, it just builds your self-esteem that a lot of things fall away. So that is the foundation of everything. Correct. Everything. So when I say you need to protect, how do we protect? We learned from the Torah how we have to protect, right? Correct. We have to prepare ourselves, right? Yeah. We have to go with a peace offering, right? And we have to dive in, right? You want to bring spiritual spirituality in your life. You want to remember your only way to do that is to bring Hashem into your life on a regular basis, no matter what. Yeah, because nothing we spoke about tonight can exist. None of it can exist. Not parenting, not later marriage, beginning of the marriage, everything is that not even intimacy. Correct. It cannot exist without bringing bar into it. We learn that creation of a child is a mother, a father and a keshbu, right? You think of a child is not a mother, a father. Correct. You think your marriage is not a husband, a wife. If you bring Hashem into it at every single stage of the game and you want to find more spirituality, now look first. Why am I looking for more? Am I incorporating the parts that I'm supposed to be incorporating in the first place? Am I doing my dinging? Am I talking to Hashem? Talk to Hashem all day. I talk to Hashem all day long. I could be the crazy woman walking down the street talking to herself. You know, I talk to Hashem all day long. There's nothing like it. There's nothing in the world like it because Hashem is a part of my life. And if Hashem is a part of your life, it means you have surrendered to the fact that you're not in control of the world and that we're dealing with the symptoms. We are the band-aid who knows what Rafua is really needed there. He knows what it takes and he's letting us partner with him, right, to build our marriage and he's letting us partner with him. How do you find more spirituality if you haven't put time into growth? Yeah. Find a speaker you love and learn from them that talks to you in the language that you best understand. That's how you bring more spirituality in. Don't be satisfied with who you are. If you're not growing, you're dropping. If you're not evolving, why is today any different than yesterday? And why should tomorrow be any different? Right. Search for it is what you're saying. Yeah. Wow. You seem like a woman with kma and with wisdom. My my question is who is your role model? My parents. Definitely. Absolutely. positively my parents and my husband and and I say this with my whole heart and soul. I learned to be and to have the strength of character from my parents and from the fact that they shared with us that that they were human. They worked on themselves that they displayed the importance of in our lives and the fact that we can turn to Hashem with anything we ever need and Hashem will always hear us and always listen to us and they were our support forever and my parents believe in her they should live till 120. Healthy mind, healthy body. They they're still like newlyweds and they're wonderful and they were amazing role models for me. And I learned from my husband to really put your passion into what you believe in. Nobody can change your mind. You have to be open-minded to hearing input. And then you think about it and then you follow through that a Jew is a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And it doesn't matter what keeper they're wearing, what color shirt they're wearing, what length dress they're wearing, whether their elbows are covered or not. There is an ashama in there. And you respect every single person. And you go out of your way no matter what to respect and accept every single person because every single person is here to give something to the world. And just like I say, the world was created for me. Guess what? The world was created for them, too. And when you can value yourself, then you can value others. And I learned that from my husband. So those are my role models in life. I've learned much from many, many, many people. Well, your parents can be proud. It paid off. I want to thank you for coming. I want to thank you for sharing your heart. I want to thank you for sharing your years of experience. And I'm sure a lot of people are going to take this take away beautiful lessons. and also a little bit of hope. Thank you so much for coming and keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity and thank you for being a forum. You know there are forums for intimacy. Okay. This wasn't this. There are forums for parenting. This wasn't this. This was a very unique form. It's all the challenges we have when we hit this stage of life. how it affects us physically, how it affects us emotionally, how it affects us maritally, how it affects our parenting. It's a whole new stage of life. Correct. And everyone can go into Thanks. So important. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time. Think.