The Struggle Podcast EP12 Daniel Yaniv- Divorce Attorney

I've been dealing with this negotiation and I have to tell you I don't very often do this, but I don't think you should marry this person. I would come in it was like an entire operation. I mean I'd come in sometimes there'd be bags of money on the table. It was like it was pressure cooker, right? And I would come in just to quickly do the civil divorce cases where they thrown guy they thrown him in jail. The guy's sitting in jail. I mean there's a guy here from Muncie, you know, that wasn't paying child support either, right? Did you spend money on an affair? Did you spend money on gambling? I literally stepped out to take a phone call. While I stepped out, they shoved the document in front of my client and made her sign. She didn't know any better. I I hate to say it they have a lot of the judges in their pocket. And what advice do you have for people who have blended families? The struggle is real. Yeah, the struggle is real. The struggle is real and for the guts to stand up in a crowd full of people and say that Dos Toyras says this. Do you know what? Good luck trying to find rabbonim Yeah. that you and I know to stand up and say something and speak out against it. What message do you have to people who are afraid that an avalanche of abuse is going to come down, but they're contemplating divorce? How should they gather some courage and decide, you know what? Enough is enough. Okay. We have over here a wonderful guest. Uh his name is Danny Yaniv. He's a divorce attorney right here in uh Rockland County. I want to thank you for coming. Sure. And welcome to the podcast. Good to be here. Let's jump right into it. Um what drew you to this uh profession that you're in right now? So the profession itself was really I think my entire life everyone said to me is like you argue a lot. Um and you like to argue and you like to talk. Uh so I think naturally everyone said you should be a lawyer you should be a lawyer and I think, you know, after hearing it for most of my childhood and you know, my parents kind of pushed me into it. I I decided that's what I was going to do and I didn't really have any other ambitions. So, I went to law school. Um and you know, so How old were you when you went to law school? Uh I think I started my law school career at 22 or 23, if I recall. And it's a 3-year it's essentially a 3-year program. Um I graduated when I was probably about 26 and right around that time, I think, you know, I was looking for a um I was looking for a job that was more local and so the the only thing that was really available was a firm here in Rockland County. It was a relatively big firm. Um and for matrimonial and I kind of fell into that. I think in law school I thought I would wind up in some sort of real estate-related field, but uh I got into the divorce uh business essentially with a practice that was primarily a high-end litigation law firm. Um and then I think a year into it it was so contentious and it was very just I guess a high-conflict experience and I think I didn't like it initially. So, I left for a little bit and then, you know, a year or two later I think the economy came crashing down and um I I decided I was just going to start my own practice and what I initially started out with was just this concept of uncontested divorce. Um at the time it was like around where Amazon was blowing up and I thought that everybody was switching to more of an online presence and and things were tran- people were transacting online and I said, you know, why don't we try and see if we can make divorce transactional. You know, people that can agree on the terms of the divorce, you know, make it simple, make it affordable. And so I I I kind of started my career offering an online uncontested divorce. Um that work? Well, you know, it it would I don't know if people realize this, but I would say about 90% of divorce, especially in New York State, is uncontested. And what that means is that you have couples who know they want to get a divorce. You know, most people I think we live in a bubble, perhaps here in Rockland County, but most people outside of New York, you know, in New York City and outside of the in in the in the urban areas, they can't afford, you know, to spend $25,000 on an attorney for a retainer. And and so they may not have enough money to even fight over. So, what they typically will do is say, "Hey, you know, we can proceed on an uncontested divorce, which basically is, you know, we'll agree on the terms. We agree who, you know, gets custody of the kids. We agree on how to divide up the finances." This all happens in your office? Well, so yeah, so kind of taking you a step back, when I started my practice, the idea was to make this transactional, where they would come online and they would complete some information. Um And an attorney would then discuss it with them, kind of give them some guidance, and then we would draft up all the documents. But, this was, you know, a fixed fee, where they essentially agreed on all the terms. So, they knew how much they wanted, you know, to what the agreement was regarding child support, regarding how they wanted to divide up. Most these people didn't have a house or didn't have any major assets. So, it was really just a you know, nuts and bolts. some some sort of mediation, right? It wasn't mediation. It It's It's literally people coming and saying, "Hey, we want to get a divorce. You know, we don't have a whole lot. Here's what we do have, and here's how we'd like to divide it up. And here's what we've agreed to, you know, Mom or Dad will have primary custody of the kids." Um and from there, we would just draft up the documents. So, we were essentially just a drafting service. Um and we were able to process divorces, and I think that's how I started my career, simply because it didn't exist at the time. There was really no such thing as an online divorce, besides for these kind of do-it-yourself services, where they would send you the paperwork. So, we actually offered an uncontested divorce at a fixed fee. Now, years later, I still do that. I actually have that as a separate side of my business, which is kind of automated as well. still working, it's still It still works for a a vast majority of people. But unfortunately, not here. Well, so I'm going to get to that. So that So my business kind of evolved and after I guess the years of doing this, I and where I was doing at at one point I was doing more I was filing more divorces in New York State than any other law firm in the state of New York. Yeah. With the uncontested divorce cuz it was a unique thing and we created this this platform where people could come on and really see seamlessly start a divorce process. A lot of it was automated. Um we used a lot of technology to kind of speed up the process, automate the document assembly, all that, the filings, and all that. Um so it that platform was actually pretty successful early on and then all of a sudden there was like a lot of copycats people came into the business, people started doing. But what I did realize is that you know, about 20% of my cases were becoming contested because at the end of the day people may start the divorce thinking they could do this amicably and then when push comes to shove, you know, things don't quite work out that well and they they have issues, issues arise, one party's not agreeing and you know, next thing you know, they're in conflict. So in initially, I wasn't really taking those cases, but then I realized that was a huge part of my business and so over the last 10 years, we ramped up and we became a you know, a full litigation law firm um and we deal with high-end I mean, we have clients worth, you know, $100 million and we have clients worth, you know, $100,000. Um and it really doesn't make a difference. The idea, the divorce itself is really the same for everybody. You may have more complex issues, you may have businesses to deal with. Um you may have complex custody cases, but the what takes place in a divorce really is the same, you know, across the board. It doesn't make a difference if you're in the from community or if you're in the non-Jewish community. Most of my clients are not Jewish, but in Rockland County, we do live in a bit of, like I said, a bubble because the issues that the firm community deals with are typically very different than what the non-Jewish community will deal with. And there's a lot of kind of it really comes down to very specific issues that you see recurring. Um but eventually my firm my practice, you know, evolved into a litigation law firm. And we still do we do And part of it is we do a lot of prenuptial agreements. That's a big part of our business. Um in fact, we have a a website. It's called getaprenup.com, right? Which Which is just focuses on prenups. Um Which prenups are only happening in the uh secular world, correct? No. Um in in the last, well, I think it's a whole other topic, but in the last I I would say in the last 5 years, prenups blew up. I mean, I I was watching And and essentially, you know, as an attorney, you kind of have your finger on the pulse of what people are demanding and what people want. Um and so prenups became almost universal at this point. Now, there's there's a lot of different types of prenups. So, in the firm community, there's a Halakhic prenup. There's different issues that we could we could talk about, but but the the concept of a prenup, you know, used to be more taboo. People used to look at it and frown and say, "Oh, that's not for me. It's not romantic." because it it's just you're going into the marriage or with a with an exit plan. Is that what it is? That's what people think. But there is a different view on it? Because if a a woman would think, you know, what what about love? What about just just just let it go and we'll see what happens. I mean, this is the there's something of a risk that you uh you know, that you jump in. like it's not romantic, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um I would argue it's just the opposite. I would argue that what it does is is it's kind of a a it's a conversation that you have to have with your fiance, Right. right? An intelligent conversation. conversation, a mature conversation. Says, "Look, if we go through a divorce, I don't want to be in a a with you, right? I don't want to be in a battle. Not not Not ever, right? But I But, you know, everyone's in love when they're when when they're preparing their prenup, one of the things I mean, for the most part, I mean, I've seen some some some, you know, relationships completely fall apart during the prenup negotiation process. Like yeah. Yeah, that happens, believe it or not, cuz you kind of see people's true colors. You see if people are greedy, you know, how they feel about the relationship. Is it just about money? What exactly a good thing because stuff come out. It is an amazing thing because people start seeing you know You red flags. 100%. Which you didn't see through the whole dating process. You may not have, because, you know, the dating process, and again, we all we've all gone through it. The dating process, you're kind of in la-la land, right? It's you're in love, everything is is everything is wonderful. Exactly. Um, and I think that when you kind of get down to brass tacks, you know, when people talk about money, you kind of get a sense of whether their what where their heads at. Personality, yeah. Their personality, what's important to them, what their priorities are. Um, but again, I would argue that the prenup really is a great way to avoid and to tell to tell your fiance, "Look, I want to make sure that you're protected. I want to make sure that I provide for you so you have an opportunity to say, 'Hey, in the event we go through a divorce, here's what I'm going to provide for you, right?'" You kind of have transparency, you know what you're getting into, uh, and we can avoid the battle because the couples that have prenups the vast majority of the time are going to avoid you know, the you know, the the 200 200 300 thousand dollar divorces you hear about, right? that people spend three, four years on. Um, you're going to avoid that because all of those issues would have been decided in advance. And the courts will generally follow whatever the terms of the parties contracted. Now, the children and custody is also part of the prenup. This is before children. Right. So this is this is not a discussion. Now, you can't Yeah, you technically can't discuss children. So then custody could blow up in your face even though you have a prenup. Right. So that that is the case. That's true. You know, That's where you come in. Well, look, I'm I'm I'm not going to say that if a pre-nup is foolproof. So, I you know, it it it will protect you to some extent. I mean, listen, I'll give you an example, right? A lot of people not this does not so much reflect the the firm community, but a lot of people, for example, in the non-Jewish community, they get married much later, right? So, they're not getting married in their 20s. Right. Off you know, you think about kids getting married 21, they think like, "What do I have? What's you know, what I have to protect?" Right? And so, you're not really thinking that far ahead. But, let's say you're getting married and you're 30 years old, right? You built up a business, you have a successful business, you put a lot into it. People look at it and they're like, you know, the chances of my marriage failing is 50% or more, right? In the firm community, maybe not. It is a sad reflection of of where we're at, but that's the truth, right? And so, do I want my business to be put under the magnifying glass? Do I want to have to drag all my private affairs through the court, you know, in in the event of a divorce? And so, a pre-nup does protect you, especially if you're later if you're more advanced in life and you have a career, you've built up some assets, you know, you have what to protect. Sometimes people are in a second marriage, third marriage, they have children from other relationships. So, a pre-nup is a really important tool that I I advocate for, not just because it's a service that I'm selling, but because it gives you the transparency of knowing, you know, what Here's the game. Here's the Here's the game plan of what happens in the event of a divorce. Right. And here's how we intend to interact with each other in the event of a divorce. Here's what I'm giving you. Here's what my expectations are. Here's what your expectations are, right? And you put everything out there on the table and you know, it unfortunately it does happen and in the event of a divorce, you look to that agreement. And for the most part, at least you can avoid that conflict. And what you see is that the women who are mature about it like let's say a 30-year-old that comes in and has what you just described, you know, he has kids from previous marriage and this and that. Do you see that they are like um, you know, they understand the They accept the process. I can't, you know, I can't speak for all of them. There are some women that are in it for the right reasons. And, you know, look, nowadays it's not just the men that are making the money. You have a lot of situations where the women are coming in with a lot of money. I mean, you know, I had one client and I was talking to her. It was She called for a pre-nup. And I kind of was dismissive of her cuz I didn't, you know, the background she came from. And then I find out, for example, she has She has some sort of line of hair care products, right? And I'm thinking, all right. I thought, you know, she's a entrepreneur, she's making it. Turns out her company's worth $75 million. I looked her up. I'm like, all right. Within 3 4 years she built up this huge company. It was worth $75 million. And, um, this was just last year. And this is she that wanted a pre-nup. She She wanted a pre-nup. She was getting married to a guy. The guy himself was was not too shabby. He's pretty success I mean, he wasn't making crazy amounts, but he was making a close to $200,000 a year, right? Um, he was self-sufficient. Uh, but she wanted a pre-nup. Now, turns out she got divorced. She contacted us, I think, not even 6 months later. This guy was cheating on her. It's a non non-Jewish couple. Yeah. The guy was cheating on her. I think after Yeah. disclaimers. Um, he was cheating on her and she discovered it really on. She was obviously very kind of, um, shook up cuz it was so soon after the wedding. And, um, luckily she had a pre-nup and she avoided a huge catastrophe because her business was She was, I think, in the process of selling this business. And it would have been a huge hit to her. He would have been entitled to 50%, correct? So, so there are rules of how how it works in a divorce, right? So, if if the question is is how how do things get divided in divorce? Right. The short answer is is that if you own something prior to the marriage, right? It's sort of protected, right? If you have something called with, yeah. If you own it, right, premarital. The problem is is if you have a business, let's say, and you've built that business up over, you know, a couple of years. You've invested in it, we call it, you know, sweat equity during the marriage. The problem is is that your spouse could be entitled to the equity that, you know, the the appreciation in value of that company. And the same thing applies to a lot of different things. So, yes, in theory, if you had a I don't know, an account that you had in and you kept it completely separate throughout the marriage, you're not going to have to share that. The problem is that people are you're commingling your assets, you know, you're adding, you're buying things with it. It's impossible to trace back what's separate and what's not. So, a pre-nup gives you those protections. Without a pre-nup, you're kind of susceptible to a court having to either you have to prove what's separate and what's not, or it becomes marital just by by default. So, pre-nups do offer that protection. Um, in a divorce, the courts, you know, most of what we do as attorneys, really, I would say about 80% of the work that we do is is the finances of it, the forensics of a divorce. And what that is is figuring out what's marital, what's not, you know. Um, the when a couple comes to me for a divorce, the first thing we say is, you know, is we're going to have to start gathering your financial information. And we prepare something called a statement of net worth, which is kind of like a balance sheet. You know, it it it has all the finances. And it The idea is for us to get a a financial picture of what you're worth, what your what your assets look like, what your income looks like, and what your debt looks like. And the same thing for the other side. And then we figure out how to equalize it. So, that's really 80% of what we do. And we fight over these things, what's what's marital, what's not marital, whether you dissipated money, did you spend money on an affair, did you spend money on gambling? I mean, I deal with that a lot. I mean, like just a couple of weeks ago we were dealing with the subpoena in casinos because one of the guys was gambling, you know, a significant amount. Um, and so, these are the types of things we deal with as attorneys, and our job is to sort through it. That's really what we do. Yeah. Now, can you explain, since we're on the topic of the pre-nups, what is an halachic pre-nup? I mean, there's a lot of talk about it and there's also it's a huge issue in in agunahs and and with with with divorces that there are men who don't want to give a get to the to the wives or for money. It became like a piece of real estate now. It's like accepted that that they want money for a get and there's the other way around too. The sometimes the the wife doesn't want to take a get. So, you're you're a little bit familiar with halachic prenups? Sure. Well, I think the halachic prenup evolved I I I I I I'm not 100% sure. I think it was the RCA that that essent that initially put that out. And the halachic prenup evolved because of a problem that we were experiencing in the firm community and that was that men weren't willing to give a get and it was becoming more and more of a of a leverage it was being leveraged or the get was being leveraged to get whatever it is they want. I mean, in some cases men felt that they were being treated badly, they weren't having given access to their kids, they were being excluded from the marital residence. I mean, they they arguably a lot of men had legitimate reasons to be upset because of how But but but is this a tool that you feel that a that a person can use so because the only the only reason why they have the power of not giving a get is because the Torah gave him the power. So, what you're using is the Torah to As a weapon, basically. as a weapon. So, so let's say if he has you know, he's saying that the woman is not right. You know, she's alienating him from the kids and stuff like that. What is that a reason enough to say, you know, what? Just because I'm born on this side and the Torah gave me the Torah gave me the right, I'm going to fix you. No, I I 100%. Look, I I I always start a conversation whether I'm representing the husband or the wife in the community. I don't think that men should use the get as leverage and I don't think women should use children as leverage. I think everyone uses in in the context of a high conflict situation, naturally everyone's going to use what they have at their disposal. And They They also bring out the worst in each other, right? Right. And And I think that men, if they if they feel that the world's against them, they have nothing else, they have no control over the situation, they're going to use the get because that's all they have, right? And that's their leverage. And women will use the children because historically and statistically the courts will would typically give custody or to the women. And they would There was almost a default that it was expected that the mom would would get the kids and would have control over the kids. Yeah. You know, so yes, it it it was used. The halachic pre-nup, as a result of as as a consequence of that, the halachic pre-nup was kind of like a um uh an innovation that basically all it is is an agreement that says that you sign prior to your marriage. And it says that in the event that one party seeks a divorce, right? And the other party refuses, there's a civil penalty, right? Because the problem is is how do you enforce a get? A get is you know, there's a there's a separation of church and state, which means that the law can't It has have zero to do with the get, yeah. Right. They can't entertain, you know, halachic issues. So, how do you deal with that and counter that? So, you know, there's a lot of things that that New York State has come up with. There's get laws, things like that, and I'll explain that if you want later, but um but the halachic pre-nup really just says, "If you don't give me the get, then I can impose or I can enforce uh civil penalties on you where you have to pay a fine a monetary fine. It could be you know, I've seen it $150, $250 a day for every day that you're not giving the get, right? And the idea is if you put enough financial pressure on the guy, things will happen. Right. Now, the problem is is that in the frum community, you don't really In the heimisha community, you know, you don't really see people signing these agreements. That's the problem. That's one, but but I look at the Is it a forged get? Or if you signed it from before, at that point you you believe that this is a good idea. So, so so where's that look at Now, who is That's you have to ask that you're going to have to ask the rabbi. A rabbi, right? Which rabbis are with this and then I'm There's Listen, the the RCA is affiliated with YU and they're, you know, and and and often times it's oddly and not oddly, but ironically, the people that are likely to sign halachic prenups are typically not the ones that Ones they are not going to get again. going to Right, they're not going to even be an issue or even a get, right? There's no way they will be. Yeah, and and and I've It's funny because I've dealt with you know, often times when I when I prepare a prenup for the someone in the firm community, you know, it'll be suggested either by me or the other attorney that they sign a halachic prenup. And I've gotten a lot of resistance. Like, "I'm not signing that. That's like a Why Why would I sign that?" And you know, even the women don't expect that it'd be signed. But I mean, I would tell you this, if I was marrying off my daughter tomorrow, I would want that. And And not because not because I think anything bad It's just why would you not want Why would you want to put your daughter through what I see other people going through? And I've dealt with some of the most notorious horror stories. notorious guys notorious get refusers in the community. And these are people who are You talk I think you mentioned it about narcissism. I mean, these are people with real real narcissistic personalities where to the point where they I mean, they can't even see that there's something wrong Correct. And the man It doesn't make a difference how much humiliation or pressure or I mean, the world could be coming down on them. They don't care. They just have no interest back. They They just don't see. They are They see themselves. That's all they see. vision. Exactly. So, so the issue is is that, you know, often times the people that are the what we call the get refusers, Yeah. it comes with psychological issues. These are not usually your very sane people. I mean, I've seen a lot of cases where the legal system bears down on them through a lot of remedies that we have. I mean, they they can impose support a crazy support obligation. There are judges in Brooklyn and in Rockland County that have done taken steps to actively combat that. Yeah. Um and the only thing they can do within the confines of the law is really just impose can't force a guy to give a get, right? But they can impose severe, you know, penalties like heavy support, things like that. Problem is if a guy is penniless, he's judgment Penniless and worries those has no business they thrown I've seen cases where they thrown guy they've thrown him in jail. The guy's sitting in jail. There's a guy here from Muncie, you know, that that For on what basis can they throw him in jail? Well, he wasn't paying child support either, right? They gave him Again, they hit him up with all these support obligations. Didn't pay it. They got him The judge was already looking for for a reason to Reason to put him in. But clearly again, we're dealing with someone who's not mentally well. Right. So, I think he sat through his 6 months in jail. They let him out. I mean, there was nothing in And and he still hasn't given him a get. hasn't given a get. It's not And it's at some point it's not really about the get. It's just It's It's It's about them. They're not They're not going to give a get under any circumstance. And And so Those are lost our stories. Yeah. And And that's so true. The The prenups is is is just Even if it's a a for a red flag, it is good. You know, when you sit at the table and that person is like, "No." 100%. For the red flag itself at the table and the guy the first instinct is, "I'm not signing that, right?" That tells you a lot. And you read his mind. Like, what is going on in your mind? You always have to look at it as if your daughter was getting married to sky like and you and and and as a father right? And again, I have a daughter. You have a daughter that she's older, you know, I met her a few minutes ago. And my daughter is 7 years old. I I look at it as like, how would you What would you What steps would you take to protect your daughter from going through that nightmare? And And it's a simple Again, this is not I don't look at this is not a some draconian, um, you know, punishment. This is a very simple thing. It says, "Hey, you know, I want my freedom. You can't keep me locked up." And I'm not This doesn't suggest it doesn't make marriage, you know, very kind of frivolous. Like, you know, you can just get out of a marriage. And I agree, there are people who argue, "Well, what does this mean if if people just want to get out of a marriage?" And I agree. I think that there are some people that look to get out of a marriage too quickly and don't try, you know, nowadays there's not like an effort to try and make it work, right? You know, and I think that, you know, if there's abuse, that's a different story. And that's the first thing I say. If there's abuse, there's really physical abuse, emotional abuse, right? Get out of the marriage, right? But, often times it's not that. Often times it's it's issues that can be resolved, you know? And and those types of things I do believe and I I've been there with with clients and I've said, "Hey, you know, I don't see so much daylight between you guys, you know, maybe you guys want to take a step back and and work on this marriage before you come to my office cuz I don't really see why you've gotten to this level or why what And And we're not talking about high conflict cases, we're talking about cases where people just decided and it seems to you that they so sometimes you make shalom bayis also? Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah, I've I've been there with couples who are so nice to each other during like the Yeah. consultation. And and I would you know, I'd be like, "Hey, you sure you guys want to get a divorce?" You sure you can't make it work? Right, you know, sometimes and sometimes and sometimes I feel like, you know, and and we've had plenty of people in the middle of the process they've decided they wanted to reconcile and that's a nice thing, you know? Right. Um you can make if you could figure out like, "Hey, you know, maybe we want to take a step back and try and rethink this." And where does spirituality come in? So, let's say if if a person if two people are together and they, you know, they have a strong belief system, you know, everything is meant to be and Hashem and this and that. You see that in between the from world like when it comes to divorces? I would love to say that I see spirituality when it comes to these divorces, but it's I mean, I've done divorces for rabbaim and people who are, you know, khashuve people in the community and people who are I mean, when I was I was a point in my career early on that I would work with a local Beznir Hasidic Beznir. Mhm. And they would basically have me on speed dial for like these crazy, you know, cases. Have to sometimes come in the middle of the night because it was a pressure cooker and they finally got the get, right? Oh, like now, like Friday before this morning. It was always at some crazy time at night and it would be I get a call. I'm not going to mention the rabbi's name. I he's he's I don't think he's in this business anymore, but he used to do volume like in in the Hasidic community he was a go-to guy that comes in, right? And, you know, he would come I would come in it was like an entire operation. I mean, I'd come in sometimes there'd be bags of money on the table. It was like it was pressure cooker, right? Um and I would come in just to quickly do the civil divorce and because we had a I had to like this was part of the settlement. It was part of what I did. You know, I would just come in and I would get and I literally had almost nothing to do with the negotiations. I would just come in and they would give me all the terms and my job was to draft everything and make sure everyone signed and and just get out. Um and this is early in my career and I could this guy this this this rov was giving me a lot of business and I would come into this you know, the problem with this is that it was kind of a scam, right? And I I have to be real about about this and it was kind of a scam. He would pressure both sides. He would go from room to room. You may say he was brilliant, but I you know, I saw it for what it was. arms on both sides. but it but it was but oftentimes in the name of just getting the get, he would make all sorts of promises. Yeah, yeah, don't worry about this. Don't worry about You know what would happen is a couple weeks after this, you know, it hit the fan, right? Everything was just started falling apart. Everything that they that the rabbi had promised. Nothing was working out. And they would go they would be back in court, right? And in And oftentimes in the Hasidic community a lot of the getting that I did were people that you had, you know, one of them was going off the derech and one of them wanted to be Hasidic, right? One of them could have been the mom. It could have been the right. All walks of I can tell you stories. Some of them are people that are very famous now in the in in the in the world because of they've they've gone out and they're now part of like culture. yeah. Um one of them one of the these divorces similar that I handled also in this same vein went out and there's a Netflix special about it, right? Um so all these people had unique backgrounds and oftentimes these are people who one of them was in a different spiritual place if you will than the other, right? And one person wanted to wanted to go completely off secular, one didn't, and you know, in in the from community when one party wants to go after wants to leave the firm world they go after them hard, right? The entire community bears down on them and it's very hard to fight the system. Um and so oftentimes, you know, the the party that wants to leave, whether it's the husband or the wife, they are subject to a lot of I mean, it's a nightmare for them. And they they will have a uphill battle. They lose their They lose custody of their kids. They lose, you know, They lose rights to And they they lose it in through through court? Like sometimes? could start in Basden and then evolve into court. How does the judge look at this when it comes to different levels of religion? So you know, one of the things that the courts will typically do is they look at the lifestyle that the kid was grown up in. And so you know, most of the judges are not religious, you know, Jewish judges they're not religious. Some of them are not even Jewish, right? But their job is to look at the lifestyle that the kids grew up in. So the kids grew up in Hasidic and they grew up in let's say in New Square, right? Um They're for the most part and and New Square has a machinery behind them. They will spend a lot of money to protect the the kids and all that and they will exile the other parent, right? Right. Um so if you're going up against them and they also I hate to say it, they have a lot of the judges in their pocket because when these judges come up for re-election votes They have block votes so the judges are are are very mindful. They're not going to cross, you know." So, they know what the community pressure is, right? And um and so, what ends up happening is is that these people have an uphill battle, and very often if let's say it's the father that is remaining Hasidic and the mother's going out, Right. mother's going to have very limited access, right? And if she's not showing her Shabbos, things like that, it's, you know, she's less and less. Right. And and so, the courts are going to be for the most part, they're going to maintain what the kids the lifestyle the kids were, and they're going to maintain them in these shivas, things like that. Now, if both parents go off the derech, all right, you know, you know, no problem. You have them they Yeah. they're not much of an issue there, but it is a common issue it is a common problem in these um in in the Hasidic world, I see that a lot. Like, we have one one a couple getting a divorce, one wants to remain Hasidic, and the other wants to go off. you think happens to these kids? Are they are they You see, my question is because I I spoke to a counselor who was doing you know, blended families and second marriages and stuff like that. And he was telling me that you're not winning the game. Let's say, if you even if you try to to to hold the kids where you are, if you're more Hasidic, and or she, whoever wins, they still have access to the parents, and the parents one side, you know, one parent is going to expose them to certain things. So, It's a big problem. What do you see at the end of the result is is is winning are you winning the battle? Are you winning the war? What what's going on? It's it's funny cuz I was in court today, and this was we're kind of wrapping up a divorce that took 2 years. And this is a a speech that I've heard many times, but it's very true, and that is in the the world of divorce, there there really is no winning, right? Nobody wins, right? The best you can expect is to be somewhat just satisfied and survive, right? Because everyone's giving up something in a divorce. There's just no such thing Very rarely is there a win. Um and and it does happen, but very, very rare. Right. In a divorce, your family's taking a hit. Financially, you're taking two households, they're being torn apart. If you were struggling before, you're going to be struggling now because you now, you know, Right. You now have to support two households, right? Your kids are going to get hit the hardest. get affected the most, I think. All of it, they're the ones who get affected the most. Correct. So, so when you ask me the question is this like how I have seen some families when they get a divorce where there is a healthy relationship between the parents and that's where the kids do well. Okay. And there's a which is why an uncontested divorce, if it can happen, is the best thing for them because you put the kids through, you know, a year or two of torture through the courts. Often times, you know, one of the things that that happens in a divorce when custody is an issue is they have to appoint an attorney for the children. That attorney is interacting with the kids so they're seeing conflict. Then they have to get forensics and they have to get psychiatrist in there and all sorts of people and the kids become pawns in this process and they see the hostility and it's the worst thing you could do for the kids is put your kids through two years of a divorce proceeding where they see mom and dad venomous city and animosity and the venom going there and they are at at at the center of all this. So, they they end up starting you start seeing drug use, you start seeing problems in school, you start seeing all sorts of behavioral issues. That's the one thing I see day in day out and it's almost always when the parents can't come to kind of a civil terms on how to how to end the marriage, right? If they're going to be going at it, their kids are going to suffer. So, you know, again, the concept of spirituality is very hard for me as an attorney to see in divorce. It's You're seeing people at their worst, right? You're really seeing people at their worst. I would say their worst. But but but let me ask you a funny question. You know, we as from from eating, we're not supposed to go to court. Right. the you know, it says uh we have to go to the entire first. Uh what if a couple from couple comes to you and says, "We want to go to court and cut out the whole entire thing. Right. What do you do? Um here's the deal. Okay? Every divorce has to go through court at some point. If you're asking me whether you want to have a case adjudicated, right? Decided by a Bezdin in advance, right? So, I mean, the answer to that is is that a I have yet to find a Bezdin that will really do a good job and give a fair shake. And and again, it really also depends on who's coming in who who I'm representing. So, if a couple comes in and I'm representing the wife, right? So, here's what I do know. If you go to Bezdin, most of the local Bezdins, right? And I'm talking about the Heimisher Bezdins and we could talk about, let's say, the RCA a little differently cuz they're more professionally run. And there are some Bezdins that are professionally run where they have more of a legal side to the to them. Um but if you're a woman in the Heimisher community and you're coming to a Bezdin, Right. I can tell you a few things. You're going to get custody of the kids almost always unless you're going off the derech, Right. right? Right. Um but financially you're not going to do well. You're going to get in. The concept of support exists, but it's only support for the kids. There's no such concept of support. There really isn't a concept of what we call equitable distribution where, you know, you're entitled to part of the finances. you according to Halakha you're just entitled for the Kesubah, right? Kesubah and it's nothing, right? So, so you're going to get I mean, the Hasidim literally have it like broken down to like, you know, if it's a rich couple if it's a poor couple, they're maybe going to get I don't know, $50 per kid per week and if it's a rich couple, it'd be like, I don't know, 200 per kid per week. They have a formula for how they do things. It's not this isn't necessarily grounded I don't know if it's Halakha or not. And again, I'm not a rabbi, so I won't Disclaimer out there. I can't speak for Halakha. Um but you're going to come, you're going to get your toyin and all that. At the end of the day, unless you're going to let's say the like I said, the RCA who runs things very professionally and they also look to apply common law. Right. Um you're not really going to get a fair shake as a you're not going to get a fair shake as a woman. So often times men are going to want to go to Beis Din. Now often times I also find that Beis Din is corrupt. You don't know who you know, who they know, who they're connected with. It's very hard to really tell. I want to feel that I want to say that there are again that there's a lot of very credible Rabbanim out there who I trust. Again, I'm not going to mention names across the board here just because I right but but I will say that I've been to Beis Din cases where like I'll give you one example. This is a case in Brooklyn. I went to it was a Beis I I literally stepped out to take a phone call. While I stepped out they shoved a document in front of my client and made her sign. She didn't know any better. Made her sign. It was an arbitration. Now I would never had her sign that agreement. They They had her It was essentially an arbitration provision where she was locked into non-binding to sorry to binding arbitration. And they snuck it while I I literally went out for for 2 minutes to take a phone call. They snuck it had her sign. You knew it. You knew that you were standing there watching it happen. So so just to give you an idea of the low cooperation and then I didn't know about it until we went to the Beis Din we said listen I'm not I I came there just to do this as a mediation and I said you know this is this is not going to work out. I left and and then a couple of weeks later they tried to enter a decision with an arbitration and I said where did this come from? Anyway, I had to make a motion to get the whole thing set aside but the idea is is there is corrupt there's corrupt out there. Um there's a lot of shenanigans and your shake as a woman is not going to be you're not going to have a great shake at getting what you're entitled to. So it's very hard for me to recommend if someone's coming in. How do I recommend Beis Din even though I understand that logically that's what you're supposed to do. In today's day and age it's not going to cut it if they're coming from a wealthy family and they're used to certain lifestyle they're going to get very little. Right. So I don't know I I I don't know how to get around that. I hear what you're saying. I hear I I hear what you're saying. I want to start from the beginning. So let's say there is a couple or two people who live together for a while, and things start shaking, you know, so the stuff is you know, they're starting to have some kind of problems. Right. So, in the from community, or tell me how it is in the other communities that you know, the first thing is you go to your local rabbi. They have an issue, and the parents tell them go to the rabbi from the shul, you know, whatever, your local rabbi. I'm like I got to tell you there's a story. I don't know if you heard that this weekend, but there was a Heimish guy from Borough Park, 55 years old, who committed suicide. Did you hear the story? Is this a couple weeks ago? no, just now. Just this week? Yeah, it was in here in Bear Mountain Bridge. I didn't hear of that. Yeah, he just jumped right over the bridge. Terrible story. What's the back story? The back story is a divorce, some kind of divorce or separation. I don't know what happened, but what's funny is why I'm saying this is that um he sent out messages to everybody, to his wife, to his mother, to his father, to his kids. It's heartbreaking, heartbreaking just to read the couple of words that he's writing. But the one thing that I almost fell off the chair is that there was a rabbi, which I'm not going to say a name, in Borough Park, that he was like saying, "Job well done. You you you had a serious influence on my kids." He was He was like the the rabbi who was telling the kids to alienate the father. So, he was writing it out. He was saying, "For you to let my kids ignore me and treat me like I don't exist, and uh job well done." He was saying. Wow. Just to read that. So, now I don't know this I mean again, I I obviously I don't know the back story, but I'm sure this rabbi has a lot on his conscience right now. That's terrible. Or he he he you know, he Clearly Clearly we're He's with someone that has to mental illness. Yeah, so it's funny that he wrote in one of his posts that this is not a mental illness. This is something much deeper, much darker. It's right. And I made a lot of mistakes in my life. So, he's telling his father that he didn't live up to his expectations. He's telling his wife, "You're the love of my life. I'm sorry I couldn't be your partner." It's like heartbreaking stuff. obviously deep-rooted issues. There's deeper deeper stuff over there. And he tells the little kid, "I know you needed a father and I wanted to be there and I'm sorry I'm not going to be there for you." Crazy stuff. Yeah. But to write out a name of a rabbi, famous rabbi that everybody knows him in Brooklyn. He has a big following. To to like tell it he You see, to me it was important for him to in public write that this rabbi had such an influence on his kids or whatever the case is. So, the I'm looking at it these rovs rabbis they're not professionals. They're not. You come to the shul because you down there takes your side. He makes a decision like he would do in his own house with his own daughter. And you're not moving get over to professionals or you're not I mean So, so I you know, listen I just want to say in that vein years ago when I was very young I went through a divorce, right? Getting personal here I guess, right? I went through divorce. I'm only bringing this story up because your attorney? I you know what? I was I think I was in the middle of law school at the time. It was a very friendly divorce me and my ex. It was very friendly. We had I had a son. He was at the time he was 3 years old. You know, we agreed that we were going to share him 50/50 and we did. Um there was really very little to fight about. I didn't have money at the time. nothing to fight about. nothing to fight about and we agreed and I basically prepared an uncontested divorce and I did it myself and that was that. And we and for for the most part, you know, my ex and I we got along through the years and our I I would like to say that as a result of that our son who's now 21 and I know him. You know? Okay. All right. So, he's so he's very he's very well adjusted. He did very very well and he's he's a he's an amazing kid. An amazing amazing kid. And I'm not taking credit for him. It's something to be proud of. You and your ex are Me, my ex, my current wife. We all we It takes a village as they say, right? When I had my son's bar mitzvah, he said that was his speech. He said, "It takes a village." Um and and and and yes, having and I'm not I'm not slapping myself on the back and saying, you know, job well done. I'm just saying it takes a lot to try and keep it and I'm not saying there wasn't some bumps along the road. But if you can, your kids will be better for it. The reason I'm saying this is when I when I when I went to my you know, my father is a very very very firm man and he follows the law and he always he always, you know, always says, "What does that Torah say?" Right? So, when I was going through the divorce, he took me to some rub here in Monsey. He looked at he said it was a big guy. Um and he I remember having conversation. I never met this rub before. You know, he's sitting there and he's I I think I was interrupting him in the middle of his learning. And he said to me, he said, "Ah ah." He said, "Guys, he's like tell me about the situation." So, I told him I said, "My question is I want I really would like to have my son 50% of the time. I feel like I'm very connected with him. I I felt like the relationship was really important to me. And I didn't want to just be, you know, this weekend father who saw the kids every every every other week. Like a lot like like like was a lot of the the cases that I was dealing with, right? And he said to me, he's like, "No." He's like, "You need to make sure that you make time to eat and for Torah. You have to make sure that you have a nasha, this and that and you find yourself another zivug." Take care of yourself. But that's how he This is what he told me. He was telling me essentially that I shouldn't take my son 50% of the time. He said I should have my son every other Shabbos. And I said, "But I'm very close with my son." And I said, "I feel like A, he's going to miss out and B, like I feel like the relationship is going to be different because of that." I said, He's like, "No." He's like, "100% only every other Shabbos." he told me. And I was I walked out and I was very turned off from the whole experience. Because you It's not what you want. I mean, it's not what you thought. You're you're you're you didn't feel it. Yeah, this guy didn't know me. I mean, he just knew me for 5 minutes and he's already he's dictating your relationship with your child is, yeah. the realization I had is is that, you know, dots are good for certain things. And maybe there are some rabbonim out there that have, you know, they're very introspective and they have the insight that can really understand the human dynamic and all that. But if I would have listened to that rav, I would have had my son every the relationship I had and maybe my son would not have grown up there. And I And one of the things that I at the time that I I had an aunt that was like a more of like a philosopher, you know, she wasn't religious, but she she passed away recently, but she she was my great aunt, really. And she she basically said to me, "You know, I did all the research for you. I looked up He said and and the statistics show that when a father is consistently in a kid's life, especially for boys, right, their chances of succeeding in life are infinitely higher, right? And the the they did all the studies and all that and father a child growing up without a father consistently, right? Cuz when I say consistently means, you know, not a father that shows up some days yes, some days not. Like shows up regularly, is part of the kid's life, and is not just there, you know, sporadically. Those kids will succeed in school, they're likely to stay off drugs, they're likely to you know, to be better students, they're likely to be better better partners later in life and things like that. So, all those things are important. And I mean, I have to say that looking at And again, this is just as a test case, looking at my son He he he turned out okay. And I'm not saying he didn't struggle with the divorce, but at the same time, he you know, he was able to just cuz we had a regular relationship, even though it wasn't every day. You know, I loved him, he knew that his mother loved him, he knew that my my current wife loved him. He knew that he had a lot of love in his in in his, you know, in his environment. And And it wasn't like, you know, we were we were just seeing each other every couple of weeks. Mhm. So, the rabbonim that step into this have a big achrayus, right? You know, they have to really if they're about to dispense advice that's going to change someone's life. And what you're talking about, you have to really have some background. It's not so simple, yeah. Playing with people's lives. 100%. So, you know, this story that you're telling me, again, there's a lot of a lot more to it, clearly. Um and I'm not faulting this above anything. I'm sure he did the best he could. But, you know, it does it does show you how rabbonim can have a major impact, especially in the Hamish community, where they take their word so seriously. It's something that has to be really closely guarded. Um you know, just my just my insight. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's unbelievable. But, let me ask you a question. If someone is married to a narcissist or a real manipulator, a very toxic toxic person, how should a person, you know, go about it? Let's say Let's say if the person says, you know, this is abuse and this is uh This is not going to be an easy fight. The person knows that this is not going to be easy. So, how does a person like that deal with with with with, you know, You know, I I think the problem is is that people who are going through I I'm not so sure that people realize necessarily when they're dealing with a narcissist, right? Um or the narcissistic behavior or the nice narcissistic tendencies. I don't think they automatically realize it right away. I think it's after years of living with someone you start to kind of formulate. It's usually other people who are kind of cluing you in to what's going on. Because I think when you're in it, you don't really know what you're experiencing. As a matter of fact, the the manipulation works so well that they make you doubt yourself. And this is a whole huge game. This is not a simple game. This is is not so simple. And these narcissists, generally, what's what's what's wild about them is that these are usually people who are very charming outwardly, right? And so, when they come to like an their public persona is completely different than their private persona and their manipulation and the games they play. So, I mean, look, I'm a big I'm a I'm a big advocate that people should go and and get therapy if necessary and again we're all guilty we're all we're all kind of guilty of not, you know, seeking help when we need to seek help and and that's the hardest part for people. But a narcissist will never go for help. They they they don't believe in help. They they you think you need help, you know? You know what they say, the wrong people are always in therapy. Well, so The people who need to live with a narcissist are in therapy. And so but I'm talking for I'm talking to the people that are living with a narcissist. They may need a you know, they may need a counselor or guidance. Right, and education. Right, education so that they can understand what they're dealing with because they may not recognize the the symptoms, you know? They may not understand who they're dealing with. Well, how does it work out how does it uh work out in court? So, let's say if they hire a lawyer, Yeah. you represent the other side and there's no there's no reasoning over it. By the time they get to court, it makes very little difference why the marriage fell apart. Mhm. And the courts nowadays, you know, I used to get calls he's cheating on me, he's this, he's that. By the time you get to court, the judges don't really care what the backstory is. Mhm. You know, they come there with a job of dissolving the marriage and how we dissolve the marriage doesn't really take into account, you know, what happened. Now, there are you know, there is more of a movement now where you know, they call it coercive control things like that. There is a movement now to have that be a factor in a divorce proceeding where if they court can if you can bring evidence of coercive control where someone was emotionally abused because physical abuse is something that's easy to discern. see it. Yeah. It's there's there's signs of it. You could you could provide evidence. of it, right? This is something that uh is happening in your bedroom that nobody knows. Yeah, and and and there's almost never any way that you can adequately and the courts are so overloaded. There's no any way to adequately bring this to light that it even makes a difference. So, people the the problem was is that the the legal system didn't really account for coercive control or manipulation. What you're talking about all this kind of emotional abuse. There was no way to account for it. And I deal with this all the time. Clients coming to me saying, "I spent years of emotional abuse and I I was told I was nothing. I was told I was worthless. I was told that I couldn't I would that I could never be this. I was that." And it it's years of building up. Their self-esteem is like over here. Um and they they can't even get out of the cycle because they're so dependent on this narcissist. Um and so the problem is is that they just endure it and eventually something comes to blows and usually what will happen is it'll manifest itself in some sort of physical abuse that comes later on in life, right? And that's the you know, the the straw that that, you know, Yeah. Yeah. that breaks the camel's back. Yeah. Um and then they'll wind up in court. But unfortunately, the legal system if you're counting on the legal system to help you with that, the legal system is not going to help you with that. There's very little you could do. In a custody battle, if you want to do forensics and bring in like psychiatrists Right. So, I was going to ask you, what is a a psychiatric forensic evaluation? Which means the way I understand it is that sometimes these therapists or whatever social workers will talk to these people. They want to get you to They want to see if you're bashing the other person stuff like that. So, Right. they're looking for things that you don't know that you're They're looking for. They just ask you certain questions, but really what they're looking for is something else. And they get a picture. I mean, So, forensics really only comes into play when you're dealing with a custody battle. Right. Right. So, they want to evaluate which parent is is sane or something like that. Well, you you want to make Okay, so there's there's a few factors, you know, generally the courts they want to look to When you're looking to determine who the the party is, or the parent is, who's going to have custody, primary custody, you know, the courts are guided by this principle, which is called the best interest of the child, right? Who is going to provide for the best interest of the child. Um usually who that is is someone that is fostering a love, fostering the relationship. If one parent is bashing the other parent, one parent is um constantly alienating the other parent. Alienation, what you were talking about this case here, right? Where you have like, you know, this allegedly this rabbi, you know, was alienating the the the kids from the from the father. What that basically is is a slow process of feeding into the kids' mind that the kids bad. I mean, I've dealt with a lot of divorces where and this more often than not is the father that gets alienated, where the mother has a lot of influence over the children. And what she does is slowly but surely build up a campaign against the father. Now, you know, you could do so much if it's fake, but what this she does is she builds up on little things and you know, and and gets the kids to The kids believe that, because they want to believe the fa- the mother, right? They want to believe the mother, cuz there's a trust there that the that that inherently kids have and and that and that, you know, in their mothers. And when their mother speaks and it slowly but surely they can alienate to the point where I have some kids where you can't even explain why they're not talking to the father, but refuse to talk to their father. about, like you said before, if a father his heart is there, and his heart is in the right place, and he wants to have a relationship with the kids, don't the kids feel that? I mean, So so that brings me to this to the second part, which is more often than not, if the mother's doing If the father's a good guy, really is, cares about his kids, and his kids see that, you know, there's no you know, the the the actions speak louder than words, right? And at the end of the day, there's no there's no amount of manipulation that the mom can can go through. It will slowly but slowly the kids are smarter than that. Kids are very perceptive and they're very in tune with what's going on and they can pick up and they know when when they feel one party's being slighted or whatever it is. So so at the end of the day you're right, but the problem is is that which brings you a whole other issue is is you could have situations where and this is one of the biggest tactics that are used by attorneys and there's some attorneys I mean I deal with this daily, right? The easiest thing you could do is if you let's say going through a divorce and some dirty attorney says, you know what the best way is? Let's get him out of the house, right? And nowadays unfortunately it's very easy to get someone through an order of protection. You get him out of the house. As simple as mom says he threatened me. Done. You know what happens? Next thing you know the police are there, he's being arrested. Arrested, yeah. Even if it's not true, by the time you get through the family court system to get this adjudicated and to have a hearing on the issue of whether there was a threat, whatever it is, it's three, four months out. In that time there's an order of protection that protects mom, protects the kids, can't go dad can't go near the kids. You know what? Kids don't see dad for four months, right? That doesn't help. Yeah and no that doesn't help. So now he's become the bad guy. Mom's had four months to convince him they don't get to see anything from dad. So often times this It's a hard hard story. It is a hard but this happens all the time. The easiest thing to do these police reports, you know, even before the dad knows even or she there's reports going in and nothing happens. Yeah. After five, six reports you get an arrest and you're like, oh my god there's four some four reports over there. This is this is evil. It is evil. And so when I talk about you know you one of the things that I talk about is often times these get refusers and I I was saying, you know, initially like sometimes they may may be justified in why they're upset, right? And and often times what you're seeing is is some of these guys that become get refusers it starts out with an order of protection. They're they're they're essentially you know, disenfranchised from the house, they're they're restricted from the house, They can't They can't go They can't get their stuff. They They literally have to be They're They're exiled, right? And now this order protection protects the mom, the kids, but the system is so slow that it takes forever. By the time the damage is already done. They're already out of the house, and by that time he they can't get Even if you if you go through the hearing and they dismiss this order protection, you know what the problem is? The divorce is already started. He's been out of the house. At that point you're not going to get back in the house. Mhm. It's a problematic. So, you know, and then it also sets the tone for who's going to have custody cuz now mom has the de facto custody. Now, I'm not saying this happens by the way with with I've seen this happen with men, too. But, the vast majority of the times it's a tool that attorneys will use for women because the police are very likely to believe the women when they call and say, "Hey, this and this happened." If the guy called and said she threatened me, they would come, they'd try and work it out. Police are not going to make an arrest. It's not the same. So, there is There is a bias when it comes to that towards the women, and it unfortunately it's a tool that's used in the firm community, and it's very unfortunate because it's the easiest thing to get. You do not need to prove anything. You just say he threatened me. I have one case I'm dealing with now. Again, this is not a Jewish couple. Um she threatened that he raised his hand to her, right? Like raised his hand. Didn't Didn't threaten that he hit her, and she felt threatened, right? That's what she needs to say. raised his hand. That's all she needs. Raised his hand to her like this, right? So, you know, and we sit there and this is where five months out Judge The system is so slow that we haven't even had a hearing on it. Meanwhile, the guy had to find a new apartment, you know, and and the kid he had to fight for custody. We finally got him access to the child. He has to bring the child over to his new apartment. But, these types of things This type of manipulation, right? Can really set the tone for what the what the relationship is with the kids. So, you know, when I talk about keeping a health you know, in a healthy relationship, a healthy divorce, and obviously if people are suffering from mental illness, this is not a conversation they're going to have. Different conversation. But, if you have two normal parents who want to go through a divorce, there are ways to do it to avoid all of this drama cuz they think that they're winning. And sadly, I have to say there's plenty of attorneys that you'll hire and they'll spend a lot of money on. Yeah. And they're going to make you feel good cuz they're fighting for you, but really what they're doing is they're turning your life into a nightmare. Ruining your life and the kids. ruining your kids' lives. They're ruining every They're What they're doing is creating a circus, right? Yeah. And what you What you don't realize is while you think they're fighting for you, what they're doing is they're muddying the waters. They're making it impossible for you to move on peacefully. And before you know it, you're out $100,000. You're depleting your resources on legal fees. And And the next thing is is that you lost the Both sides are fighting over the kids. The kids are are getting The kids are suffering because of it. You're starting to see problems in school. You're starting to see behavior problems. Kids are getting suspended from school. You know, I'm dealing with some parents right now where like the kids because of what's going on in the divorce, kid Schools kicking them out of because they They're The kids are now They're Their behavior's changed so dramatically. They're fighting every day. So, it's it's it's it's a It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare, but it's it's one thing leads to the next and it's inevitable that if you go down that route, you're going to wind up with your family in shambles. Yeah. Unbelievable stuff. And when is a order of protection justified? If If If someone is legitimately abusing like physically Absolutely. emotionally Can you get an order of protection for emotional abuse? Unfortunately, not. Not. So, they Not Not Not yet, but that that's changing. They I think the laws are going to change within the next year or so Right. where that will become a criminal offense. Coercive control Coercive control is hard to prove, but if you can establish coercive control, it will become more of a crim- criminal nature if you can establish that pattern. But right now, unfortunately, you know, that type of emotional behavior as long as unless there's anything physical associated with it. And the same thing is when should somebody fight for sole custody? If you're Look, You know, often times in the relationship together the parents are toxic, right? Right. It doesn't always mean that one-on-one, you know, either parent is bad with the kids, right? So, they may be a bad spouse, and you know, you may feel they're a bad spouse, and they may feel you're a bad spouse, and all that. But, they're good parents, right? It's an interesting way to look at it because when two people are fighting, they're like they're painting with one brush, but one stroke the whole person, you know? And and and it's rarely the case where the relationship indicates the parenting, but every once in a while you have some toxic parents where what they're doing with the Or sexual abuse, and Okay, again. We're not even talking about that. there's sexual abuse, physical abuse, absolutely sole custody. Okay, you don't that Those are cases But, typically if there's sexual abuse, and there's even allegation of that, um the parent that is being accused of sexual abuse is going to have supervised visitation. They're not even going to have like the the access they're going to have is going to be very limited. It's going to be with someone there. Right. Um The sad part is that there's the shame that comes with this. And some people just you know, uh don't have the courage to come out and you know, stand up for this, you know? Are you talking about the shame that comes with sexual abuse? Yeah. Are you saying people that are victims of sexual abuse? Either victims or even the you know, people are hiding. This this is such a brings such a shame to to the family and everything. It's it's I Unfortunately, I I mean I I think that there are people out there that don't want don't get the help they need because of the shame. I think that's what you're saying, right? Um and then they're not getting the help that they need, and and that's that's true for I mean, all of us up until the modern times people were shamed to go get therapy, right? Now, it's That's true in the secular world as well. Not anymore. I I they've I think it's been normalized, you know, to the extent where getting therapy is so normal. There's apps for it. There's, you know, they celebrities are talking about it. Um I think everyone to some extent needs therapy cuz we're all struggling with something. I know this show's called The Struggle, but you know, we we all at the end of the day, right? All of us as humans, we struggle with something. Some of us struggle with finances, some of us struggle with relationships, some of us struggle with their kids. Some of us are struggling with just staying afloat in life, right? It's hard. Life is hard. Um and it's easy to forget that we're all struggling with something. So, we all, you know, need therapy to some extent. Some of We all need therapy. Everyone. And and and therapy comes in many different forms. I think it could be just someone to talk to, right? Sometimes and and men especially, I think men are the most closed. Men don't really talk to people, right? So, and and you see that cuz sometimes I'll I'll get people calling me and I'm I'm just still handling a divorce, but they they talk to me like I'm their psychiatrist. Sure. As a a lawyer should have to be a a stickle psychiatrist. bit. Yeah. What? Did they teach you this in school? I didn't give you I they don't give There's not a They should. There's a lot of things they should teach you Yeah, because no, because you meeting two new people, you have to figure this out quickly. What is going on, you know? So, I think over the years you kind of figure it out. You have to as a lawyer, you sometimes have to read between the lines and be intuitive. And so, I do play the role of a therapist. But sometimes I mean, sometimes I'll tell people like you're paying a lot of money for me to spend on the phone. And if you want to, I'm happy to listen. But oftentimes I'm giving them just like life advice. Like there are times like we're talking about the prenups where I said to someone doesn't happen very often, but I step I I I kind of cross the boundary and I'm like, "Look, I've been dealing with this negotiation and I have to tell you I don't very very often do this, but I don't think you should marry this person. I I'm seeing the red flags all over the place. What she's asking for Wow. is so beyond the pale and the things she's asking for tell me everything I need to know about what she's going to be like as a spouse." I said, "Be careful with her." You're opening up a can of worms here. Yeah, but but you know, and and and they can either listen or not, but and and they may hate me for it, but it's I felt like it's it's it's my responsibility to give them a warning. It's just your conscience. Right. I There's I give a warning. But but you know, to to your point, yes, every everyone could use could benefit from therapy, and the people that need it most are usually afraid. I think men in general are more proud and therefore afraid to do it. It doesn't have to be in the form of a therapist. I think what the frum community needs to figure out is how to make it more available, you know? How do you make it more available and normalize in the frum community? So it becomes remove the stigma. Remove the stigma. You see though, the influential people, like the rabbaim, came and said, "Hey, I think this is a great idea for you." So if everybody in yeshiva like was told, like, "Hey, Normalize it. take try this out. Have Have someone to speak to you because there's things that you are afraid to tell your parents, there's things you're afraid to tell your friends. of times the parents don't even know the children. That's what they say. They say are closed. Yeah. And they tell you what they want you to hear. Yeah, and they want to make their parents proud, and that's like, yeah. And it's it's hard. And and same thing with adults. We don't We're afraid We want to keep our persona, you know, a certain way. So it's it's, you know, it's a very human thing to just keep be guarded. You need someone that you can let let loose with and put, you know, let down your guard and really have a an honest conversation about how you feel. And and it's it's cathartic, right? You do that. And it doesn't happen very often. So So talking about parents in the frum community, what do you see as far as parents being involved in the divorces of their children, positive and negative? Like, what is a parent's What is the parent's job to to their What role should they play when something breaks out? It's a tough question because a lot of times the parents that are involved in a divorce are usually the ones that instigated the divorce. That's what I tried to say. But they mean well, they love the kids. It's very complicated. I mean, they do love the kids, but then you want to tell me it's an ego, and they literally are going to take home their children because of and they're fueling this fire. On the other hand, what should a parent do? They should sit side to side and just say whatever you think is right and I'm going to support. What is their job? So, I mean, again, this is just my opinion, but I do see there are some overbearing parents where you know that the parents are the reason for the divorce and then they're somehow involved in the divorce. These are parents who are toxic, like these are personality disorder parents. They're totally I don't I don't have I don't think I have the you know, the qualifications to diagnose what these parents are, but you definitely see the writing on the wall when you talk to some of the where the parents are involved in every conversation. They don't give their kids any autonomy, um which makes it hard for them they express themselves what they're saying. I mean, they're like running the show 200%. They haven't cut the umbilical cord. They're They're very right and and you can see why the marriage fell apart. Um so, the parents parents can be toxic for a relationship. I think that the really good parents that are kind of in the healthy relationship are the ones that know their boundaries and they, you know, they they realize their kids are not married. They help them get set up. When the kids come to them for help, they they make themselves available. support. Exactly, but the ones that are constantly interjecting into their kids' lives, you know, the helicopter parents that are, you know, where the kids are in their 40s and they're still So, that that that is a problem. is a huge problem because Listen, if parents see abuse, then absolutely step in. If you see abuse because oftentimes it's Also, that's where the fine line is. There's a parent that sits home and sees their daughter or their son is something is not okay. Right. So, they don't know when to say to themselves, "One second, when am when am I stepping in? I don't like what I see. Or should I stay back and say, 'You know what? Let them do it on their own, you know, they're adult enough.'" It's very complicated. it's physical abuse, I think Oh, physical abuse is clearly uh Emotional abuse, I think again, my opinion, and I I don't know if this is I I think what the parents should do is guide them and say, "Hey, listen, you should really speak to someone." I don't think they should be the ones to do it. They should put people They should guide them and get them into the right hands to someone who was outside cuz one of the problems is that automatically parents are very protective. So, they they often times see things through a filtered lens. And what may seem like abuse is not necessarily abuse. It's just the parents are seeing the relationship in in their with their lens. Right. Right. That's very smart. So, so what you're saying is that the parents should help them build their own self-esteem. And that you know, and they should get their own education and knowledge of how to navigate their own life. Well, that that I think starts before the marriage as well. Yeah. Like with the with the The parents should put them should guide It starts by the chosson lessons, you know? But Probably. Yeah, listen, you know, I I I It happens to be that that you know, the chosson lessons are very Just a loch is, right? And what is It's not about life. It's almost like the most insignificant things are that Before the marriage. Right. They're everybody. Well, they don't days, you were like going two weeks uh few days before the chosson. I mean, in the chassidish world is also I mean, I don't know if it evolves, but I think that huge education is missing as far as what is marriage. I mean, what is your goal in life? And are you a You know, there are givers, there are takers. Understand the zero zero knowledge. Two kids getting married and like, "Oh, knock yourself out." seminaries and yeshivas are talking about everything, but the should should have that conver- Listen, I've always said this, the yeshiva should have that conversation. Right. They should have about personal finance. That can come into a marriage not really knowing anything about They should understand a little about personal finance. And they should understand like cuz you come in with You're 21, 22 years old. Don't know what things. Nothing, right? And and you all You know what we what we all do is we model it off the relationship You never saw it, right? You may not have seen the greatest relationship, right? So, it's hard to know what it is that you're getting into when you get married and you have to figure it out and I think it's kind of unfair burden to put on a 21-year-old or 22-year-old. Yeah, it's it's it's crazy. How about uh boundaries? When you have to put down boundaries, you want to put down firm boundaries with an ex-spouse? How do you navigate that right? a that's a that's a that's a tough question. I mean, listen, from personal experience, I mean, different people say different different things. Um you know, having gone through a divorce myself, like I I probably didn't really understand where the boundaries were, what I you know, what I should do what I again, no one no one said to me, "Okay, you're divorced now. Here's here's what you should do. Here's what you should do." do. Do you go help out when you know, your ex says, "I need help doing this and this?" And you know, and it happens to you when you get remarried, you get a quick education about like where the boundaries are because your your new spouse will tell you, "Hey, I don't This is unacceptable. I don't think it's such a good idea that you should be offering to take out her trash, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, and you have to kind of find that middle ground, but there is such a thing as having a good relationship with your ex, especially if you're you're raising a child. I don't think that you should be in daily contact or or like that. I think there should be some limits. Um I mean, I think the best thing that happened was is you know, when our son was old enough and I could kind of um you know, just communicate with him directly and there was very there was less there was less communication. Yeah, and not because of not in a bad way, just because you know, if you're remarried, neither spouse wants you still having regular, you know, contact with with the other spouse and it's not in a bad way again, it's just it's just there should be some sort of boundary there. Right. And how do you manage clients' uh expectations? So, let's say if your client says, "You're not doing a good job. I'm not I'm not I'm not happy with You know, sometimes it happens they're so upset and so nervous they spent so much money and they want to run the court system. And the the attorney is like, "Listen, I can do this. I can do that. I can try." And they're like lashing out on the attorney. You You deal with this regularly, especially as a divorce attorney, because A, you're dealing with, like I said, with people at their at their worst, right? wit's end. Right, at their wit's end. They're going through There's a There's a lot of emotional stress, a lot of financial stress. But more than that, you know, the problem is is that their expectations about how justice works and how the court system works and how and the reality, right? Like, you can a client can call me and say, "I really, you know, this is unfair. I want to I I You know, I want X, Y, and Z. She She or he is not honoring the agreement. You know, we said it." Okay. In order for me to do that, I got to file a motion with the court. It's just expensive, right? Then you got to submit it to the court. You got to wait for the court to to have a hearing on it, a decision. The process is long. The clients are like, "Why do I have to wait this long? Why is there no repercussions? Why is there" And I get that often. And unfortunately, the reality is is the court system is not perfect. It's very slow, and results are very slow. So, for divorce attorneys, you know, the reason why a divorce takes several years is because the courts are so slow to move things along. Right. And getting results on anything takes forever. So, clients get frustrated, and you're their guide, right? As their attorney, you're basically their guide. Right. They look to you. And if if you're not delivering, and what they end up doing is they say, "Okay, I'm going to go to the next attorney." Next attorney is going to have the same issue, right? Except, you know what happens is often times I've I've had clients which are we call them red flag clients. These are clients that have had four attorneys before they get to you. Right. I've seen people change attorneys in the middle of the case. It's because they think if they change something Things are going to change. Nothing's going to happen. Nothing's changing. The reality is I'm going to listen, sometimes if you have a bad attorney and he's not getting anything done or he or she's not getting anything done, absolutely Which happens also. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of I deal with a lot of ineffective attorneys. If you don't if if they're not running a good practice and they're just overwhelmed or or it is and they can't get any anything That does happen. How can a person know who to hire? You know what I mean? Like to get most often it's going to be referral based, right? And you're going to have someone that had a good experience with you and whatever it is and that's where most of my clients are coming from is like they've either had a good experience with someone there in their circle has had a good experience with us and they they refer us. And not every case is going to have the same outcome and also sometimes clients have expectations that are just unrealistic, right? You know, they have all sorts of drug issues and they think that they're going to be they want sole custody, right? And they have all sorts of like they have a whole history of, you know, domestic abuse things like that. But they in their mind they're the parent that should have sole custody and realistically it's not going to fly, right? Um, you know, and then also I have clients that they come through the first thing they say to me is, "How can I protect my assets, right?" And the short answer is you can't, right? There's nothing you can if you're already if you don't have a pre-nup you don't have anything ironed out beforehand you're going to divide things up, but they think that there's something what if I give them all my money to my brother or if I put my money in a trust? I'm like they're not these these expectations. are not realistic expectations and they they're they can get upset at you for not achieving the result that they had in their minds, right? So, the reality is is the court system designed to be fair um and yes, there is not it's not perfect. You're going to do your best as an attorney to achieve those results and you there's certain things that you can expect if one spouse is not working and they have no income you're going to file a motion for support things like that right away and you're going to get certain things. It may not be exactly what you want and they may say, "How am I supposed to live off of this?" But the reality is is I'm I'm limited by what the system will allow. So, you know, it is what it is, but if you're doing a decent job most clients will see it. Um, if you're really dropping the ball the clients will see that, too. Right. Right. What message do you have to for to people who are afraid that an avalanche of abuse is going to come down? They're really petrified from so many years, but they're contemplating divorce. How should they gather some courage and decide, you know what, enough is enough. And I'm I'm I'm ready to to to to call this quits. I think if you're dealing with that type of spouse where you know that you're describing as an avalanche and you know what basically is the backlash, um you have to find your support your support group at whoever it is, whether it's your family, friends, whatever it is. And you have to really barricade yourself behind them because what happens is they will start an all-out assault, text messaging, calling, harassing, harassing family members. I mean, you see that and I see that with cases that I deal with where you know, dealing with one case right now where they're going through divorce and what the guy is doing, the kids are a little bit older, he's going on an email campaign to the kids, throwing the mother in the bus, saying, "Look what she's doing to me today." It's an all-out assault and it it it it it it can get to the point where where he's you down because you're getting family members sending message here. We've had to go get orders of protection. We've had to go get like all sorts of things to protect this client because this is a real This is a case where there's a real assault going on. Now, it's not a physical assault, but it's it's it's what you would call abuse because what they're doing is systematically targeting everyone around you to try and pressure you to back down, right? Right. Because that they're not happy with what you're doing. Putting fear into you and this and that, threaten threatening. So, you have to really barricade yourself and you have to have a good support system behind you. Otherwise, you're right, it's very easy to to throw in the towel because if you're been going through this your entire life or for I guess the entire marriage, right, you're going to get the worst of it now. Right. Cuz now is now is the Get out of Get out of the situation as well. Have you had clients that in the middle of the divorce process would tell you, "Listen, I can't take this anymore." I I and they're they want to quit in the middle. I'm just like like give in. And I would know they're going to be back. Yeah. Where they've Where What happened is again we're talking about narcissists, right? Where what they did is the spouse will say will realize that he's about to get hit pretty hard with, you know, with the finances of this. And what he does is he manipulates the situation, starts to sweet talk, cuz usually these guys are good Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're very good at these things. And I'm saying guys, but it could be women, too. They're They're very charismatic and they know how to like sweet And there has been like a rinse repeat situation where they you know, they've they've gone through this ups and downs where every time there is some blowout, then they sweet talk their way back in, and these women typically will fall for it because it's it's built into them to want to trust, right? And so they'll go back in the cycle. So, in the divorce, it's no different. They can if they realize they're about Let's say, for example, there's you know, they're about to get hit with a $50,000 counsel fee award, right? Right away change direction. They're going to start sweet talking and start manipulating and all that to try and get the spouse to drop the divorce, which has happened. And you almost know that this is headed down the same path for a while. Sure. Of course. But they succeeded for the moment, you know? So, yes, it does happen. Yeah. And what advice do you have for people who have blended families? They They have her kids, you know, everybody's being kids and their own kids now. How do you navigate the most the best way possible that everybody, uh, you know, should be healthy and a solid family? It's a hard It's a hard question because you know, I've never experienced that blended family situation, right? Um, and and my blended family, but I've seen couples that have it. Right. Um, I think what you need to do is to be successful is you kind of have to separate out the drama cuz where the issue is is where you When a couple went through a divorce, the other couple in a divorce, if you're bringing in your All you're seeing in the relationship is the drama that you're bringing in, then the relationship itself It's going to have an effect. Right, and so the only real way is if you're able to and keep this healthy is to separate out that drama so that it doesn't kind of get become part of the new relationship. The ones that are successful doing that again not my department, you have to speak to a therapist about that, but the ones that are successful be the children more than uh Keeping Well, again, if they have if they have children between them, but but the the successful ones are the ones that will keep the drama of their prior relationships out of the marriage because what kills these new marriages is the drama that comes with everything because they're still dealing with fighting with their ex and they're doing He's fighting with his ex, she's fighting with her ex. Kids are Kids are going back and forth and all they're seeing in the relationship is drama and then they just like they washed their hands of it because it's just too much. So, um if they're if you're successful in navigating that, you know, you're a bit more successful in making the blended family work. Right. So, in your practice, how many success stories do you see with people moving on with their lives and you know, second marriages and they're a success story? I mean, all the all the time. You see that then? Yeah, it usually boils down to the people, right? If a person is a a solid person to begin with. Right. You know, if a person is a solid person, grounded, you know, Cuz you don't hear that much divorces the second time, correct? This is You You do. I I mean, I Most of the If if you have a bunch of cases that they're clients that have divorced three times, right? You know, again, often times someone that just jumps from one relationship into the next relationship also doesn't heal, Right. right? Is just really carrying the baggage into the new relationship, right? And so, we're all I'm speaking for myself, like we're all We all We're all the product of our history, right? You know, whether it's our childhood or our relationship prior to that. So, if you haven't taken a moment to reflect and figure out what went wrong and like how you could become a better person and then you're you're bound to repeat that in the next relationship. So, realistically, you know, the only advice I could give is is take the time to better yourself and figure out, you know, whether it's through therapy or you know, introspect right. Figure out what it is that went wrong in that relationship and how you can improve things in the next relationship and and you probably don't want to jump too quickly from relationship to relationship. Um you know, some people haven't healed yet and they're already moved on to the next relation and that's usually Not good advice. No, especially if it's a you know, someone's been through a very long-term marriage, they just went through a divorce and you know, it's very easy cuz you're craving that love, right? You're craving that relationship. It's very easy to find the first available person, but that's not necessarily always the best thing for you. It you may need have you need to heal first even if it means being alone for a little bit longer. Right. Yeah. Now, do you have any story that you remember in your practice, a horror story that shook you to the core, that that just that just showed you a person who got lost in the space, you know, like uh he took it to the next he took it to a level that you wouldn't believe that that he can do? Well, you know, I I this is like more recently in the last year. I had a a client I had a client who was a young guy, relatively successful. Um he was Jew he was Jewish Orthodox not you know, I don't more let's say more Modax as you would say, but he was struggling with um and he had a daughter, right? He was struggling with um with drugs and you know, his I handled his case for about 2 years and during this time like at one point I you know, I had said to him I'm like, "Listen, if you really want me to honestly get you to have more access." He got she got wife got an order of protection against him cuz he was heavily abusing drugs. He was violent. And and and yeah, and and and and he was using for a while and I said, "Look, I said you need to genuinely take the time, stop what you're doing, forget the divorce right now, and go and get the help that you need because there's no amount of lawyering that I could do that's going to get over the hurdle when they do a drug test on you and they see that you're, you know, the substances that you're you're abusing. So, you know, you know, and he and he he did listen to me or he pretended to listen to me, but he was really lying to me all along, right? And he was he was fooling us. He went to Mexico to some program, but really he was going to Mexico to do drugs. Right. Got somehow some certification from some fake program. Um and you know, this was going on and on. He was just telling me, "Yeah, yeah, I'm much better." But then literally, you know, then I said, "Okay, let's get the drug the drug test." He's like, "Yeah, yeah." And he would keep, you know, he would keep trying to blow me off. And he was sabotaging his case because, you know, we had to comply with certain orders and he kept on sabotaging his own case. And, you know, I said, "Look." I said and then he started turning and this is part of it. Then he started turning it around that I failed him. That I failed him. That because of me he didn't see his daughter." And it really just smacked of someone who just not in touch with reality. Not able to actually look in the mirror and say, "Hey." And but he turned it into a whole campaign against me and I really just started seeing and he started literally harassing me, sending me nasty emails, um threatening me and all that stuff, claiming that I was trying to So, I I you know, I got off that case. I had to get off that case. But even after that, lying to me, saying he was coming in for court appearances and he's took a flight. But just like the guy was a mess. Out of control. Out of control. And he was a kid that was very successful. He was in his 20s. Had like cash advance money. Drugs will do this to you. Drugs completely but he but he but to the point where he was believing his own lies. And I I wasn't able to help him. And I said, "I can't I can't help you until you're ready to help yourself." And he would drop off the map for months. Like I couldn't and we kept getting clobbered in court because every time we'd show up he he he would show up on drugs. They would do he wouldn't he would refuse to take the test. Right? The one time he took the test came back with, you know, literally everything under the sun. Um there was photos of him all over Instagram like drinking and partying and all that stuff. And he wasn't going to get to see his daughter and I felt bad because I really want to and I said, you know, I said, "Just give me give me 1 month being clean and I will get you access to your daughter." Yeah, yeah, yeah, Daniel, I'm going to take care of it. I'm going to take care of it. And um I I you know, same rinse and repeat. I didn't see any I didn't see any change in the behavior. But that's kind of like the worst case scenario where you have a client where really is not not able to get themselves under control. And you want to help them, but really they're their own worst enemy. And so you know, the same thing will you know, could be for drinking or be for other issues. Yeah, which is it's just a conversation for ourselves. It's it's it's it's very sad and these people these are people who need help. So the struggle is real. Yeah, the struggle is Struggle is real and for a lot of people it affects their life and you could see how the spiral, you know, you're talking about someone that that you know, takes their life, right? Usually it's a spiral of things that start crashing down in their life. You know, they could go through a divorce, they could lose their children, they could start losing the things that are most important in their life. And then the next thing you know, they feel like they have nothing left to lose. So that brings them to their lowest point. So um getting things in check early on, you know, is really important. And the message that you have here really is is important. It's get someone in your life that can help you through that if you if you feel like your crash your world is crashing down around you. Get help before it's Right. Before it's too late, yeah. In a perfect world, as an attorney, would you want to see some changes in the legal system when it comes to divorce? Um well, absolutely. I mean, there there could be mechanisms too technical now to discuss there could be mechanisms that put into play that allow for certain things to happen quicker. You know, we talked about orders protection. What I would like to see is there should be more vetting or or quicker quicker turnaround on the hearings that take place which legally you're entitled to, right? Before someone's excluded from the residence, right? You know, it's too easy and again there are the problem is here's here's the real problem. The problem is is that someone comes in with an allegation he threatened he did this and this if you're the judge, right? Do you want it on your conscious that some crazy guy came back and and shot somebody because you didn't get issue the order protection? So they look at everybody as as you know when when the judge yeah, I mean that's how they look and they have to look like that, correct? Because they they want to save their own skin. The DA is the same way they want to everyone wants to save their own skin and it's easier, you know, I'm using the wrong terminology but shoot first and ask questions later. Issue the order protection and then we'll deal with it, right? Because what's the worst that can happen? You could destroy this guy's life but you know what? At least you haven't nobody got killed, right? So what I would like to see especially in the family court arena, right? So so there's two different courts, right? Often people get confused they say there's divorce court, right? There's no such thing as divorce court. There's family court. There's supreme court and there's family court. The divorce and the financial aspects all that all everything including custody can be dealt with supreme court but if someone has an issue like a family offense like you know if someone like like orders protection if there's neglect proceedings things like that. Let's say I don't know let's say someone sees that you know the kids in a family are being neglected which happens a lot, right? Where they're being abused or whatever it is you you as a citizen can contact child protective services and they'll file a they'll file a family offense proceeding, right? Neglect and then that family has to show up to court and they that's how you look at it and child protective services will do a report they'll do an investigation family. Um you know, I I get asked that question too like I'm I'm an aid in this house and I see some like really terrible stuff going on in this house. Should I report it? Things like that. And the answer is yes, you're saving kids. Like, if you see if you legitimately see things going on, report it. So, family court is where people deal with all of these things. The family court system is not perfect at all and could use a lot of help. Often times men get a bad you know, they get a bad rap in family court. Um it's it's designed kind of like again and I talk very much about this because the system is biased against men for these things. Just like, you know, when it comes just like when it comes to, you know, the business system is biased against women. Yeah, yeah. Right. the family court is biased against men. to custody and family offense, it's biased men don't do very well. that's that's a bold statement. That could be that could Now, I will say what has transpired in the last, you know, couple of years. For example, when I go to New York City, New York County, I'm on a case there. The courts for the most part look to do fair custody, right? When you come in, the there used to be this presumption that the mother's going to get primary custody. Because he's working. Isn't that the the reason? Sometimes, but but if a dad comes in and says, "Hey, I want to have my kids 50% of the time." In New York County, the courts by default will award that, right? Unless you could show that there's a real issue there. So, but that's a real change. But again, I'm to asking you, don't you think that that's that's fair? Yeah, I mean it's fair, but I'm just saying if a dad wants and I'm not saying it's fair but if a dad comes in and wants to have that relationship with the kids He can make it work. It doesn't matter if, you know, he has his he figured it out with the finances. He wants to be part of this child's life 50%. Why should the father just be the guy there just to to provide the income? Why should that be the relationship? I I I write checks out to schools and this and that. Why should that be the The father should have that right. Should have that right, yeah. That that should be a standard and that should be, you know, that should be a standard across the board, which is not it's not We're not there yet. Yeah. Is there anything that can be done? I I it's You know, we're trying to change the world over here, but is there something we it can be done or this is just like set in stone and you know, You need it all starts with a legislature, right? So, anything that you want to enact, any any kind of initiative, you have to do it like a grassroots movement. That's a lot of energy and a lot of It takes a lot of energy, but people do it. You know, listen and to get to get to protect the agunot, right? That that that was a movement. Years ago there was no one to fight for them. Now you have, you know, Instagram influencers and all that. They're very active with this. Um some like I have issues with some of them, but I'm just saying but the idea is what they're doing is actually a very good thing. Because nobody really is standing up for these women. There's no one standing up for There's nobody standing up. Everybody's picking up their hands. I mean, is there there any other solution? A pre-nup is is is prevention. What happens when someone is, you know, coming from a community this is unheard of and it's never going to happen. This is going back I don't know how many years. We talk about a pre-nup. Pre-nup what? Well, the rabbonim have to have the cojones Right. to to to stand up and say, "The problem you have is is that even many rabbonim that you and I know, when you ask They wouldn't stand up to They will not they will not stand up and say If if that if that gets refused, the dominance in their shul won't stand up. They'll be like he'll he'll be like he'll be the rascal in the in the shul. Yeah, I know the deal there. He shuts you up like that. That's the end of it. And and I've been turned off by some rabbonim who I thought were like were like solid people, man. I said I'm telling I'm saying here's the whole story. I'm telling you do you trust me? Here's the whole story. I know the story. Is there is there you know, and again, I get it. Sometimes the women are using the kids as a pawns and all that. And and I hear that. It's still not warranted. I don't think either side should use should should use unfair leverage, but but either way the rabbonim should step up and and and and really, you know, I will say for example, here locally in Monsey, there's a Rabbi Rabbi Wolmark. I don't know if you know him. Yes, yes, he is. But the Wolmark stand up guy. I was extremely impressed. Anytime there was an issue where we needed someone of a Russia Shiva stature to step into the arena, He had the guts to do it. it. He had the guts to stand up in a crowd full of people and say that Das Torah says this. You know what? Good luck trying to find rabbonim that you and I know to stand up and say something and and speak out against it. They'll say it's complicated, it's this, it's that. It's a million reasons they're going to give, but it But in the meantime, there's no solution. You know what? Somehow in the frum community, we find solutions for everything, right? But but there's certain things that are there. our chametz with the whole like, you know, we do heter iska. Yeah. We haven't found a solution to this. For this we can't find a solution. I mean, I I will say I I'm I was dealing with another case recently where the woman wouldn't give the get, wouldn't accept the get, sorry. What's the story with that? She She was She thought that somehow she had some sort of leverage and that she wanted She's like, "I'll I'll take the get when I'm ready." Now, I think she just wanted Again, it's control. All this is about control. And money sometimes. Money, too. But when if you feel like you you don't have control, you're going to grasp at the one thing you can control, whatever that is. You have the Wi-Fi password. If you want to use that to your That's your leverage, right? So, for for a lot of men, it's that. And this woman thought she could do it. Now, the guy that I'm representing is a stand-up guy. Was Was taking care of her even throughout these divorce proceedings, did everything he had to do, took care of her, gave her plenty of support, um you know, wasn't fighting over anything. She just wanted everything, right? And but she He wanted to move on with his life, and she wouldn't accept that. So, she wouldn't accept the get. He ended up doing one of these heter me'ah rabbonim. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he did it. In the end, she ended up taking the get a year later, but um but he for the longest time he was He wanted her just to accept the get. She She said, "You take You want to go to bezzin, let's go to bezzin." She We came to bezzin, she's like, "Well, I'm not ready to deal with that." You know, so it was games she was playing. And it's Again, this type of control on both sides of the Right. It's more often or not than not it's it's men that are doing it, but it does happen with women. Right. Danny, you seem to be a stand-up guy and a very good lawyer. A lot of information, a lot of knowledge, a lot of good stuff that we heard today. I have one final question for you. All right. Who is your role model? Oof. I have to say that in my life, I have, you know, there are two people in my life that were role models to me and for different things. Um so, one was my father in my life. Uh-huh. Um mostly because he showed me what it meant to be a man and a husband, right? Like like my at a young age, my mother went through cancer and and she she passed away when she was 30. you were young. Yeah. He was He was your your your a rock. was a rock. When we didn't have any money, I never I never felt like that. He never made me feel like we were poor, and we were poor. And he was working three jobs. Um and he never never There was never any inkling, and he taught me, you know, about a you know, a father's role is, you know, to to take care of the family. Yeah. Was he He was in the military also? He the army. He did amazing things, without getting into like the whole integrity and the hippie war. Yeah. Um you know, and and and I think what really solidified it for me is, you know, when I lost my mother, that same month he lost his father, lost his wife, he lost his brother. Right? And to keep it all together and then to raise to raise two kids you know, by himself, cooking and going to work and doing all that. And so, Amazing stuff. Yeah. And and so, he For me, that was like all I needed to see what a what a man was and what integrity meant. And then later on in life, like he, you know, he guy gets up at the crack of dawn every day, he learns, he does everything he has to do. Does stuff quietly, takes care of people. I mean, there's literally nothing he won't do. One One serious guy. He just There's not any and he's not And There's no fanfare. He's not always He just does He does everything he has to do. He came from good stock where he saw this by his parents. Um so there's that. And then in terms of role model I I I mentioned earlier in this conversation my great aunt who, you know, stepped in and kind of took the role of a mother. So she gave She She wasn't religious, but she gave me all of like she taught me how to analyze life. She taught me how to, you know, how to get how to you know, she taught me the concept that you know, you can control You can't control what happens around you, but you can control yourself. You control how you respond to things. Right. And she was able to get me through a lot of the hardest points in my life. Um and she passed away this past year. You know, yeah, and but she she but she up until the day she died she was you know, she was a a critical part of my life and I looked to her for guidance. Anytime there was a hard There was a juncture in my life where I needed someone to talk to. You know, you talk about a struggle. That's good. When there was a struggle in my life, she was the first person I went to. So Amazing. Um the communication between her and I and and even my brother and and and anyone that she really touched was was really instrumental in in formulating who I am. And I'm not a perfect person. I have a lot of flaws, but she she was able to kind of sit me down every time and say, "Okay, let's let's look Let's look at Let's look at this. Let's talk about it. Let's figure out how we're going to get past this, right?" And she taught me that. And that's I think something that's really important for everyone to kind of figure out how to get over hurdles. Wow. She She was a gift in your life. She was a gift in my life. So those are my role Those are my role models. Right. Right. So you have an important job and it's like it's uh like that solar. You know what they say? We hope we don't need you, right? But when we need you, you should be able to uh make people uh live better lives. I Yeah, I you know, I don't I don't know that my job is anything more important than everyone else's job. It is It's sometimes you know, when it comes to these things and you're taking people out of dire situations, you look at it as saving people's lives. So so everyone always makes a joke, you know, in shul around like oh it's like you're if you're driving this car you must have had a lot of divorce, right? You know, the the way I look at it is I I have to make a parnassah, I have to do my I do my thing. And if I could do it in a way where I've actually impacted someone's life to the better, if I've gotten them through a difficult situation, you know, then I've done my job, right? I've gotten and I tell people right about it. You're not going to You're not going to walk out of my office at the end of this doing somersaults, right? You're you're not, you know, this is not that's not going to happen. There's no yippee ki-yay, you know, that doesn't happen. What my goal is, and I tell this at kind of the first meeting I have with clients, is to get you out of this as cost-effectively, efficiently, and with as a little drama as possible because this should be a blip in your career. Divorce is I mean it's for most people it's one of the most difficult things in their life they'll go through. So so, you know, if I can get you through this legal process and kind of with your head up high and save you a little bit of money in the process because I'm not going to be that attorney that's going to drag this case. And again, unfortunately, it does happen and I have no choice, right? There are cases where I'm dealing with the other side that they will not settle a case, right? And unfortunately, it's a harsh reality. But if I can help them and I can get them past this quickly, effectively, and with their head up, you know, with a a little bit change in their pocket, then I've done my job. Wow, call it covered. Thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you. All right. All right, there you