Beyond Therapy: What Actually Heals You |Hudi Kowalsky

It needs to be inclusive because in the in those cattle cars everybody was there. It didn't make a difference if you went to YU or if you went to Ponovich or if you went to you were Satmar or Lubavitch. They didn't care and they still don't to this day. A lot of people struggle with meaning. And when it comes to meaning that they're not going to find just from from doing a little cognitive psychology. They got to call this someone on the bridge that wanted to jump in San Francisco many years ago. And the cop said, "If you don't If you If you jump, I'm going to shoot you." The guy got down. So, simple doesn't mean you're always jumping on the on on the top of a van. Smoking up. That's nice. That's cute also. It makes people happy. Simple means I'm living a life of being tuned in. I have a purpose. So, I'm God for some people sounds very scary because they went through trauma, someone abandoned them. Someone did something to them that wasn't good. So, they feel abandoned by God. What did you learn from your clients? >> Be humble, be human, be curious, stay open. Everyone's going through something. Yeah. Stay kind. Okay. Today we have a very unique guest. Doesn't just speak to the mind. Um he sings to the soul as well. Um he is a mental health professional. He helps people to rediscover their voice um spiritually and emotionally. His name is Hoodie Kowalski. Welcome to the struggle podcast. >> Thank you for having me. It's a privilege to be here. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for coming. First, I would want to discuss a little bit your background, uh where you come from. Tell us about a little bit about where you grew up. So, this is the foreground, this is the background, but I come from Brooklyn, New York. I'm still there. Okay. With all the shares of play this still left in Brooklyn. Brooklyn, you have your practice in Brooklyn, right? >> Practice is in Brooklyn. I have a private practice in in Brooklyn. And um my family is a little bit from all over, but mostly from my On father's side from from Poland, Polish Hasidim, Galitzianer, and then from the Warsaw area, Sochaczew, and then later to Lubavitch. And then my mother's family is is from from the Russia, Ukraine, from from Korosten and from towns around Korosten, from Rebbe Nachman of Breslov, and a little bit of Lithuanian blood as well. So, a little bit of a little bit of that's the family background. Wow, beautiful. And you got close to Nachman a little bit. Yeah, I was learning more and more about Breslov and learning more. Learning Hasidus and then the point of learning Hasidus isn't just a cognitive exercise, it's to embody the teachings and that's that's the work. That's the work now. >> And how did you connect to that? How what is it? How did you What what did Breslov do to you? What did Breslov do to me? How? I'll come back to you in a few years. Like most of Hasidus teachings, you know, Hasidus world is is universal. It's not just thing a concept and you're flying in that in that you know, and then to the to the upper levels and then into the upper worlds and into the upper worlds and getting lost in in the spheres and emanations of God. It's how do I live my life? How do I walk the streets of the world? Right. Which is what we're all struggling with. Did you feel the the do you feel that it helped you in it uplifted you from before? It brought you closer? It reduced anxiety? What did it do to you the teachings? >> So, definitely something that, you know, to to bridge the gap sort of with mental health and and Hasidus and then other teachings is modern therapy is is a fairly new invention, you know, Freud, you know, considered like the father so to speak of modern therapy. So, in the last 150 to 200 years, right? But people have been struggling for hundreds if not thousands of years, right? And the Torah and then and and all the ancient books of wisdom have a lot. People have been struggling. Why are we doing here with purpose? So, Hasidus was a gift, you know, from the last 250 to 300 years in the modern day of helping us fill our lives with meaning and purpose. Right. And you're also into music very much. And at what age did you feel like you got into music and you're still using it today? This is like therapy and music. >> Music is, you know, it's from the soul. We just came out of the out of the nine days of mourning, you know, a few weeks ago and a lot of people make assume they didn't meet, but very few people have music during the nine days. Even at the biggest the biggest parties, they still have a lot of acapella singing. And I was speaking to some people and they said because because music comes from such a high spiritual place, it's we can't it's not just it's not so simple just to bring it back just because a person's having a seam. It's it takes more than that. Food, okay, that that we can do. Other things. When it comes to music, so music is a really this universal language that bypasses a lot of the the defenses we put up. Right. >> And as a kid, my father was always singing and my it's from his mother's family. They were very musical. And um playing the guitar, singing songs of Carlebach and you know, and other and other musicians from the from the 19th from 1900s and all the songs and really you know, giving us a feel for for for the for Shabbos and for the songs and for Yom Tov and all that. And for you in do you feel that music helps with healing also a little bit? For sure. For sure. I mean now you have I don't I wasn't there, but I have friends participating in all some of these all these festivals. And a lot of a lot of you know, a lot of them are going a lot of you know, crowds from Brooklyn and from from Monsey from from Monroe and from you know, from from all over from the New York area from Lakewood. And the main thing is music. People singing together, singing together. They pour out their hearts together because real music is tfila is davening. It does something to the soul, right? And that's people go. Yeah. Is there special songs that you're connected to? What is your go-to thing when you want to really get into music? So the the is the the whatever niggun I'm singing at the moment cuz the the goal is to be mindful and to try to plug in. But the words should connect to the the the the niggun and the words the the tune and the the words have to connect. That's real Jewish music. Right. So it's not just the fast song, it's not just the slow song, it's taking words that are meaning or something just a without words and and being mindful about it, not just singing again, not just singing and putting on a tape or CD Yeah. and listening, but really connecting to to to diving to to again cuz feel it bypasses again some of our defenses and connects us to our source. Right, to the Rebono Shel Olam. Now, in your business as far as therapy goes, do you mix uh spirituality? Do you bring in a little bit spirituality? Because you know, a lot of professionals are like they go by what the book says and they don't touch spirituality. And do you mix in music in in in your in your therapy or not? So, regarding what the book says we can always write our own books. >> Yeah. So, we don't have to rely on the old books. But, even the old book is there, too. And the answer is yes, most of the time. Now, again, I do a lot of behavior therapy. So, someone is struggling, you know, with an OCD, with some trauma, you know, we'll we'll look at the behaviors, we'll look at the cognitions, the thoughts, some CBT, DBT. What does the book say, so to speak, you know, let's follow protocol. Most of the time though, people are struggling whether they grew up in the in the Jewish world, whether they grew up completely secular, or not Jewish, people a lot of people struggle with meaning. And when it comes to meaning that they're not going to find just from from doing a little cognitive psychology. It's something that goes deeper that they need to >> Right. flush out. Right. So, so explain a little bit what you said about meaning, finding meaning is is when a person goes through a hard time. How do you get him to put You know, there's the famous book from uh the Holocaust um Victor Frankl. Victor Frankl, but yeah. So, what How did you get a person to find meaning in a challenge or in a difficulty? So, it's important because the Shulchan Aruch says during the time a person is going through something, they're not going to find meaning. It's very difficult. >> I was just teaching a class. I just finished yesterday class on um grief and bereavement, right? So, I I talking about grieving and going through hard times. Meaning comes after. So, a person goes through a hard time and and they're struggling for a few weeks, a few months, a few years, and they start to ask questions. And then it's like, "How do I make this event turn into meaning?" So, if someone like Nachman loses a child, the death of a child isn't meaningful. It's sad. It's a tragedy. But what they do with it after could become a They They start a new They start a foundation. They get people together. They build something. They create something. They So, whatever it is, they support others. >> That's where the meaning comes. They just start supporting others. Exactly. That's where the meaning comes. So, the the tragedy itself isn't meaningful. It's what people do with it. Uh-huh. So, that's where you have to find meaning. Is the challenge is a challenge. It's just that the after that you can you done grieving, right? It's It's It's again, it's not so linear, but that We're not necessarily done grieving, but we're we're ready to use it for the next for the next step. We use it as a stepping stone. >> Exactly. Wow. That is something else. Um do you feel that the teachings of from Nachman, the Breslov teachings and all Hasidus that you're learning from all sides, they uh therap- everything is found over there that you find in therapy? I can't say I haven't studied enough to say everything, but I'll tell you a lot of There's a lot of wisdom in the Sforno. >> in the Sforno of Kedushim. And like I like I was telling you earlier, like they were written in the last few generations with old wisdom, but I believe that the gift of the Ba'al Shem Tov and the Tamid of the Ba'al Shem Tov was not was was for those generations, but it was more for I think if after the Holocaust. Wow. For the people struggling with the questions after the Shoah, after the 6 million, because it's a big question. And then into into our days where we have technology, with so many distractions, so many so many people walking around broken, and and you open these farm and there's so much there's so much light that emanates from them. Right. And teachers that are ready to give the light and spread the light, that it's a momma's gift. Yeah. Now, let me ask you something about um the Holocaust. Um it's a big conversation and you know, we're pretty much very close to you know, we're not so far away from the Holocaust and what's going on in the world right now. How do we give meaning to after what we saw in the Holocaust? Um you know, we've seen Poland and we've seen all these these were hustling and bustling cities and they're all gone now. We know what happened, but how do we give meaning? How can we put two and two together? You says 80 years later. So, some people would say never again, which is good. Should be an attack again, but but used to say it should be like never before. Cuz we need to be keep recreating Yiddishkeit. Again in a meaningful and and in a way that touches our essence and that's again coming back to the siddhis. I'm learning also a little bit from Yishkaddish. Yeah. From the Satmar, from K'hal Adas Kodesh and this whole thing which was right before the war and that was cut short by the war was was to infuse Yiddishkeit with a slavis, to to have meaning, to have to have a fire in the Yiddishkeit. Because the are going to do what they do. The world does what they do. That's their hashbon. Right. Our hashbon is to take care of ourselves and take care of each other. So, if I'm building a half a shul, you know, I'm building communities that are inclusive not just based on you know, what we went to shiva, what kind of hat you wear or don't wear, who your rabbi was or isn't. But all inclusive totally. That means people with physical disabilities, developmental disabilities, emotional troubles. We need to be inclusive because in the in those cattle cars everybody was there. Didn't make a difference if you went to YU or if you went to Ponevezh Yeah. or if you went to Satmar or Lubavitch, they didn't care. And they still don't to this day. They don't know. They're calling all of us Zionists. Right. It's a joke. Right? But but but it's but it's a it's a wake up call because the the more we take care of each other, the more the more we have, the more we the stronger we are. And I I read an article from the Mashal the leader of Hamas who was killed and he said they were waiting they saw that the situation at store was a fellow with the the fighting. And again there's legitimate arguments and I'm not getting involved in Israeli politics or any politics but there's legitimate reasons people have to be upset and from all over. But when they see that we're not going to go along and we're fighting and we're willing to to shed blood of each other then it's much easier for them. But when we stand up for each other at all costs then they have they have nothing against us. So what you're saying is something beautiful. What you're saying is that from the Holocaust the just the fact the mere fact that the way they rounded up all the Jews and everybody was equal that should be a lesson for a half a second. So that means that what we saw over there is the old saying I saw the anchor. They will always hate us and they'll always try to this is going back I don't know how many years. Before the Holocaust you read about the Jewish people crusades inquisition Yeah, this is nothing new. But what you're saying is that after the Holocaust we should learn a lesson that we should they have a half a second. This is what this is all about the judgement has to go. The judgement and the resentment and the hate and the jealousy and all these stuff. This is something giving this is giving meaning to what we saw before and live with this everyday. Then people get busy and again I don't blame anybody but we have Trump and you have this and BB and this and that and and and anti-semitism. It's all cute for the newspapers but at the end of the day it's like when you walk at the show what kind of they said like a joke. What's the difference between a Jewish anti-semite and a non-Jewish anti-semite? What's the difference? Right so so non-Jews anti-semites Jews they're all terrible. And he said what about what about your lawyer Freeman? Oh Oh, a good guy. What about the the tailor, you know, Finkelstein? He's okay. You know, you ask a kid, I love every I love every Jew. What about your neighbor, Schwartz? A guy that guy, he's a piece of garbage. You know, what about what about the what about this other guy? Oh, he owes me a million dollars. He's a he's a he's a gunif. Whatever, he's a he's a thief, right? So, when push comes to shove, we have to we have to up the game, which is very difficult. Right. It's not so easy. If it was easy, what am I talking about? Right. So, the Holocaust is something that is um you connect very much to the Holocaust in a lot of ways. And again, it's not connecting to the destruction of us. It's connecting to the the lessons that I'm taking out of it that others have taught me about it. Yeah. That that whenever it's we're it's always up to the Ribono Shel Olam. We're not safe wherever we are. We don't know in 1 minute um everything can turn around. Is is the Yidden over there were living decent lives, and they thought that this is it. We're not leaving, and this is where this is our future. Even even after war started, people didn't want to leave, you know. >> They wouldn't leave their houses, and their businesses, and they were all set up over there. They couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe it. Even people would tell them, they couldn't believe it. And he took the ice cutters, he died in in in the Holocaust, right? He was he was he was the roof over there in Piatra Neamț, right? Piatra Neamț, Warsaw, yeah. Yeah. And uh he died in the Holocaust with his kehilla, with with the people. Yeah. Um you know, again, there were many tzaddikim. So, in your therapy, when you uh deal with uh with clients, you integrate spirituality. You can sometimes bring in emunah, you can bring in uh chasidus. So, emunah is is interesting. I don't usually use emunah so much bitachon, even though that's all of my life. I try again. I live I try to live my life with emunah bitachon. >> Yeah. You know, seeing the Yad Hashem in every single thing is is the Yad Hashem, everything. But, you can't tell that to a client. You can't tell them the same way you can't tell them to a client not to you're not saying it's it's Yad Hashem. Even a person struggling with anxiety, it's not it's not so helpful to tell them it's Yad Hashem. Even though I know it, and I want them to know it because they still need the tools to to deal with it. Right. Right. So, you you do whatever you have to do. So, what do you use? You use mindfulness? How do you uh So, I'm using my first two languages, I guess, are CBT and DBT. CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy. Cuz I went to the Yeshiva, so you know, most of my clients are from, you know, all these people go up and from community and are men. So, they use their heads and their heads a lot. So, how we think about something. What do we What are How are we using our thoughts? How are we using our ideas about something to guide to guide our life, to guide our decisions. And then DBT incorporates some more mindfulness skills of how what am I doing? How am I doing it? Why am I doing it? What's my purpose? Also, in a in a very simple way and in a and then in a in deeper way. Right. What do I What do I want to go? So, CBT is um you get them to make sense of their act What What What Explain CBT. You know, someone explained it to me very simply once, but you could be two people in the same One person could be in the exact same situation have two totally different experiences. A guy I Someone gets, I don't know, they have to stay in New York for a week. Something happened. They were supposed to leave and then they got stuck. So, they could say, "This is This is hell. This is Gehenna. I'm stuck here in this small place. I don't have too much resources, too much food. I don't know where my friends are. It's terrible." And the other guy could be like, "Oh, wow, I'm here for a week. I don't have an agenda. Let me explore. What can I walk around? What can I see? What can I discover? Let me look at the architecture. Let me look at the Yeah. at the whatever whatever's around me. Let me Let me learn something. Let me having an open mind and curious mind. It doesn't mean and in this case we talk about comes to the table and being very positive. I'm not necessarily pushing that on anybody cuz it's hard to tell someone to be positive. But just in a very in a very neutral way saying, "What What am I doing here now?" And that without getting so deep. And what can I What can I do to get something out of this experience? But they should take away the negative. What do you What do you say to a a who's like, "I'm stuck over here. I don't want to be here. And uh this is not good. >> So you validate that's the validation comes in. It's like uh it's not It's like I've told you you don't want to be here. You have other places to be. You have other things to do. And what could you get out of this experience? What could you do? How could you use your time >> the best out of it? effectively, exactly. >> Yeah. And what is the other one? The the CBT is one and So I'm I'm I'm making a little bit of a joke now, but but yeah and DBT again focuses a little bit more on mindfulness skills where we tune in to observe and describe what's going on externally and then internally. What am I What am I thinking about the situation? Am I judging the situation? And is there a way I could be more non-judgmental and more again effective in Right. what I'm doing with these things. >> It's a mind exercise. What you're saying is talk to yourself. Ask yourself the questions. Why are you negative? You know, just between you and yourself, correct? Is that what it is? It's a It's a It's It's It's being being aware of where you are and why why the nervousness. Name everything. Is basically identify I'm angry. I'm nervous. I'm upset. Why? You know, ask yourself. That's That's what it is. I think it's good. Name it to tame it to be safe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, we we also know about um mind, body, and soul. And this is I'm sure you're you're you're you're pretty much integrate that. It's a big thing. The mind, the body, and the soul. They all work together. Explain mind, body, and soul. Why it's so important and why is it What happens if you want to leave the body out or we want to leave the soul out or still logic or just the mind? One one without each other, how's that um going to work? Well, so God put us here on this world, right? So we believe I believe we have a soul and a shamah, whatever whatever what you want to call it, a nefesh. And we have something to do here for our time here on this world. And uh and the tools we have to use that is the body. Right? And the mind. And again, it's hard to hard to exac- exactly to define these things because soul and mind are not things you can see you can see a brain. Right. when I was talking about the brain itself we're talking about a mind, right? So, everyone has different uh capabilities and abilities. And the more persons living in line with their values with when they're in line with who they are as a person, generally the happier they they they are and the more the more good they can do in the world. Because if I'm if I'm born and I want to help people and I'm and I want to be able to communicate with others and share ideas and I'm stuck talk without without ability to access other people, it does hurt. Right? Because it's like now I can't I can't do what what my what I what I'm what I feel like I'm meant to do. Right. Right? So, you know, sometimes it's when talking to someone who's struggling you can give them a lot of ideas, try this, try that. But if all those good ideas they don't necessarily connect to who they need to who they are as a person and what their what their purpose here is. So, everyone has different ways of of using their mind, body, and soul connection to fulfill their unique task here. Right. So, it is important to to to be aware of every part of your It's not just logical. It's not just you If I'll have If If I'll have money, I'll be okay. Right. It It doesn't work like that. >> it's never It's almost never, right? Almost never. know who I am, I'll be okay. And I And I'm doing it. That's the way to do it. That That is the key. So, the question is how does someone find who they are? You see so many people have a hard time finding what their identity is uh you know, which place they belong and what their mission is and what their shlichus is in life. How can someone tap into you know what, this is my This is my shlichus. Oh. One way is by listening. Not to the noise outside but to the what's going on inside, right? So many Like I said, we have so many distractions. But not even I'm not even talking about technology. I'm talking about the world, there's so many messages, there's so many ideas, so many philosophies and they're all wonderful. Now, the many of them are wonderful and then have a lot of beauty to share. And people can go up there. Today today I'm doing this. Today I'm doing that. Today I'm on this trip and today I'm on that trip. And people are looking for it everywhere except for tuning into themselves. Who What is my definition of kids telling me? What's my where where do I need to be? And then it doesn't make a difference really where you are because you could find that once you know it, you could you could manifest it in many places. Right. So, what you're saying is you have to tune in to yourself because we're very distracted. And if a person tunes into the neshama, like where do you shine? Like you you you have to feel it. So, there's a lot of people who shut those feelings off. They're they don't you know they don't want to go there. And those people are struggling, correct? Correct. Well, the song says trauma. Yeah. So, or and some people are just are not wired to tune in. Yeah. So, these people have it uh don't have it easy. And people aren't wired it's not I shouldn't say the wired. They're they're not they're not either taught to tune in or they're or they were at some point taught that it's dangerous to tune in. Right. >> And we live in a world They don't trust. I don't know. You know, we got to it's so sad. Again, like I said before, I look I work with most of my clients grow up in the from communities in the religious communities. The most broken come from the most spiritually rich. Wow. Because I was in a shul somewhere recently. And I cuz I was thinking nicely and it was a few hundred people, all religious people, externally religious, all wearing the lavush, you know, of of the Orthodox people. And there was enough there was enough energy in the room maybe to light one light bulb. Wow. This one's talking. This one's using this one's reading the papers. This one's going outside. This one's sticking at the bottom of his thing. Too long, it's too short. He's has a good voice. He has no voice. But the power if if 300 people would sit there and actually say, "What are we doing here? It's Friday night diving. Why are we diving? What do we have Shabbos for? What's Shabbos for? Who put these words here? It's not a clown. It's not poetry. These big sadikim put the words here for a reason. Why do we sing them? What are we doing? And we'll sit there and actually pour out their hearts together. If they trust each other, there will be safety together. And then to do it in front of the Vaishnava. The The building will blow up. In a good way. Yeah. Right? But for granted, right? So, we're in a generation that's I don't know if this is new. I don't even I can only say for this generation that's not tuning in to what we have. It's We have it all. We don't have to look We don't need new books. We have Like, if it's only the something books, but we have it. We have it in the It's in the sitter already. It's in the It's old. We have to We have to You have to use it. And the generation, for some reason, is afraid to use it. We get distracted. We're running. We're always running. Running away. Even Shabbos. Yeah. Sure the minute Like, I could understand a little bit. But even Shabbos, we're running. Running to a kid that's running, to food running, this, that. But being distracted, that's what it is. You know, and and it's like Okay, Shabbos Nacho, we're just coming off I don't know when this is going to air, but coming off Shabbos Nacho with today is ago. What does it mean on a comma? What does it mean to have Right. to be It's all there. It says in the in the in the in the books that a person should sit on Tisha B'Av like this, a dead body in front of them. Like, never like, you know, when it's on that they lost somebody. Like, they're sitting shiva. So, 2 days later, we have fireworks. Yeah. It's people like fireworks. I never saw someone get up from a shiva. I see a lot of people get up from shiva. I never saw someone go to a fireworks show after. To jump up and >> go back to work, check an email, make a phone call, make sure they take a shower. I never saw somebody So true. light a firework. So, I don't know how busy with fireworks. I'm not Everyone should be convinced. It's beautiful. What are we doing? That's what we have That's what we That's why it's a joke. It's a joke. And it shouldn't be a joke. Wow. But we're afraid of tuning in. And then you get an eye roll so this guy is teaching from the future Maya and this guy is teaching from Nachman and this guy is teaching from Ish Kodesh and then you get you get you get three people show up to a share and then everyone else is giving an eye roll they look at the at the at the pamphlet that you know the the Shabbos sheets and they roll their eyes and say oh Nachman yeah yeah I know what it's about and they and then they're going to the party and it's we're missing we're missing the we're missing the the essential That makes so much sense >> in the world too so I have to also again I'm not only working with with from so the from community I have more tenants on but even the secular world there's so much meaning there's so many things people could touch on this so distracted because so many advertisements so many places they go things to do when people aren't tuning into It's just the the distraction so talking about talking about tapping in and tuning in and connecting to Shabbos and like you said Nachman and all these things is there of course I'm Nachman talks about his brother this which is a beautiful concept that you take time out of the day everybody has a different time and try to connect try to talk talk to yourself talk to the one who is there ask beg be grateful and all these things you and and and also I know there's yoga today and meditations and all this stuff are you you have anything to say on this I mean yoga is it is it is it you recommend it is it a good thing is it a So I personally do have a yoga practice yoga taught me gave me a lot of tools to help me understand Judaism better I'll just give you one example a lot of times in yoga class they'll and then I'm not I'm not rabbinic I'm not saying if it is or not if it is or ask a local rabbi but in a yoga class a lot of times they'll say setting intention set your intention so I was giggling I'm like what is setting intention what does that mean spend this attention like what does that mean I don't know translate intention in the dictionary okay over and over again and then finally I'm like Okay, well we were kids. They always told us to have a kavana. But they also never translated kavana. Davening kavana is um shuckle, you know. >> Yeah. What is kavana? >> So what is kavana, right? So set your intention kavana. Now I'm starting to think. So you travel to Israel and you got to need to go on the highway so you ask me is it kavana? What direction you going? >> Yeah. And now I'm like waking up. I'm like, okay, so kavana is direction. Intention, direction. Why am I So in yoga practice you say what am I doing with the next 60 minutes? What how do I What do I want to use this for? And I have the whole not I have the really but in davening you got the shul in the morning start wrapping your phone. What's my intention? Why am I doing this? Who told me to wrap the phone? Why? What's it saying in the phone? Why is that important? Why doesn't it change every week? We should have a new message. Go to the whole tire and then you should get a new phone every week, right? Why is it black? Why not Why not purple? Why Why you know? Why say shma? What's the shma mean? You know, what does it mean? Who am I saying shma to? What's my intention? What's my direction? What do I want to go? What do I want to take my day? That's what we do in the beginning of the day. So we set an intention for the day. It's a mindfulness exercise. Right. So yoga gave me the gift of Yiddishkeit. And it's also good exercise. Wow. But people go play basketball and do the same thing. Right. So what is yoga? Walk us through a process of how yoga looks >> in I mean the way it's sold now in American culture is a series of postures of movements that you know, are done mindfully and intentionally set up in a certain way. And in in again in a very precious way and in a very simple way it's meant to just stretch the body so you you know, you're making sure your your legs and your arms and everything's moving correctly and and getting air and blood and and all the good things. And and it helps you again helps me set up the day. So now I'm thinking where am I again in a very physical way where am I putting my feet? Where am I putting my body? How am I sitting with a client? Right. How am I talking to somebody? And then that expands to other parts of life so there's a more intention. Do you have a studio for for yoga? >> I don't teach. I teach I practice. I go to certain places >> Oh, you do your own thing. Yeah, I probably study a certain kind of yoga called Katonah Yoga, which is a little bit more focused on um alignment uh to some extent than and measuring up. So, don't do a pose how you feel. Same thing in basketball, don't you shoot cuz you feel like it. Make sure when you're shooting the ball right to the basket that you know where you're standing. When you're shooting the right So, it's the same thing when you're doing a yoga pose, don't just do a pose cuz it feels good. Measure it up with your right angle. Are you Are you standing correctly? All these things. And again, it it translates into other parts of life. What am I doing? Back to the mindfulness. What am I doing? How am I doing it? What tools am I using? And all that stuff. So, yoga is not just posture. Yoga is mindfulness also. So, you So, you talk to Hashem during the yoga? >> to Hashem during yoga. I mean, I always talk to Hashem cuz everything we do is connected to Hashem. But not not not not mindfully. And another part of the yoga practice is breath work. Oh, yeah. So, what is that? Explain that. So, the yoga breath work is a little different than some of the some of the people doing, you know, breath work in the community and Yeah, they're It's It's very popular now. But breath work is like is like um it's like drugs without the negative side effects cuz you're breathing new air into the container. You're cleaning out You're cleaning out what's inside. Again, different ways, different different systems in the body are are getting cleansed through the process through God's air without again without influencing without outside influence of of external um stimulants or, you know, substances. And it really clears the mind. So, you do a breath work for for 15, 30 minutes, an hour if you have the time, and it really could clear a person out. All right. It's a very powerful tool. Is music played during yoga? So, happens to be where I go, there's no music. Mhm. But in in the modern again in in the American world, most places do play music, yeah. During yoga? >> Yeah. So, it's posture, music, and mindfulness. It's some exercise. Do you recommend it to clients? I recommend mindful movement. So, yoga is again made up by people, it's not God's word. Go take a walk mindfully, get on a horse, go play basketball, go swimming. Doesn't have to be anything. Anything that's done with intention is is this has the same power. Mhm. Yoga is just one way that I connected to it, but play hockey, play football, pickleball, Yeah. tennis, doesn't make a difference. As long as you're taking it and using it first of all to move the body, which is healthy, and bringing it into life in terms of just is this teaching me something that I can use in my interactions with others. So, what you're saying is that the entire life when you from when you get up in the morning till at night every day, you have to be mindful of what you're doing. Don't just do it like it's just people want vacation a little bit, you know, they don't want to be mindful all the time. But, um what you're saying is don't just go put on tefillin, don't just um be a robot. Mhm. Right. Just just tap into what you're doing in everything and go ask questions, find out, make research, and it's going to help you be healthy. You know, you have kids, right? So, a lot of kids they like to eat chicken soup, you like to everyone like, you know, we like we like to put the new the croutons in, the matzah ball soup, not the So, a lot of kids like to pour in all the croutons. Yeah. And they'd also say, "Do you want any soup with the croutons?" So, the joke's on us though because we're doing this in life all the time where we're eating all the croutons and we we forget to have the soup most of the time. We're doing all the things we're supposed to do. We write stuff. We we make it to shul. We give it to the guy. We do all the things we check every box, but we never drink the soup. Wow. And you see this in your with your clients also? >> I see it everywhere. Wow. Now, as far as depression goes, person falls into a depression and it's real. It's real. They're they're in a dark place and they they don't see light by the end of the tunnel, but you know the concept of Ein Shim Yesh Ba'al Am K'lav, which means that Nachman says not that get out of the depression. This thing doesn't exist. And he explains it that if you would really know that if you would be connected and if you have a moon and if you talk to Hashem and everything, you're grateful, it doesn't exist. It's it's a made-up thing is what he is saying. How can you elaborate on this a little bit? So there's the clinical awareness and the Jewish way. That's how we got to get this way first. Yeah. And based on Nachman and all the Hasidut in Meshuach talks about the Slonim Hasidut. He says the the story where Yehuda goes to to Yosef, right? And he's talking and he's pouring out his heart to Yosef and he says, "No, take my brother. Take me instead." And there's this whole back and forth. And then Yosef reveals himself. So it turns out that there was never any trouble in the first place. Yehuda was never in trouble. The brothers were never in trouble cuz they were talking to their brother. There was no evil intention here. So in Ishbitz clearly Nachman also says it So that's the same thing in Galus. When the When the curtain gets pulled off, we see Whatever we see Again, the Rebbe I shouldn't say it this way, but has a lot of explaining to do. But so to speak, but in that way in some way, but but But in the same way there's no questions in that way. That being said, there's still people suffering in darkness and in depression. And it's important to the difference between grief and depression. People go through a lot of loss. It's important for them to mourn the loss. Experience the sadness. The point is not to just say comes with Torah and move on. There's a reason this person is supposed to be sad when they go through something tough. And at the same time people fall into depression. You know, they only see things a certain way. Everything's dark. And the first thing is to sit with them. Instead of saying there's light at the end of the tunnel, say I'll sit with you in this place. Cuz once there's another person there, it's a little less dark. Right. I'll sit with you. I'll stay here as a friend, as a therapist, as as as a community. And we're not so good at it as a community. Cuz we're pushing. But being able to sit with people in their emotional struggles and that already makes the depression a little lighter. And then And then yeah, there's again cognitive psychology, there's IFS, internal family systems, understanding a person's past, the traumas. Usually it's coming from somewhere. It's very rare that a person wakes up one day depressed. So it should come from a lifelong of of hardship. Usually, not always. And being patient and validating, and gentle reminders and gentle nudges that this this other there are other things out there, but also being patient. So it takes time. It takes time. It's not a one-day process. Well, we have only. Yeah. What you're saying is that even in the books, if um sit with that you hold his hand and you validate him, is there is there you can get him out of a depression? You could. And what's important with validation is of course also more in the DBT, but is you validate the valid. So you validate that someone's feeling sad, that the life is tough, that certain things that they're struggling. But the future If someone says this is I'm never going to have this, that's not valid, that's not true. That's the future. You don't know what tomorrow's going to bring. You don't know what 5 minutes is going to bring. So to say yeah, you're talking, you're right. You know, you're never going to have whatever XYZ. Right. It's not It's not valid. You say you feel that way, but it's not actually true. Uh that's an important um distinction. Right. Right. Now, as far as um suicide, same same question. Um is suicide a chemical imbalance, or is suicide this is you can tell somebody if you hold his hand or whatever just went through a hard time, and he's like, "Snap out of it." What is it? I don't think anyone ever snapped out of something cuz someone told to snap out of Yeah, yeah, right. So people were saying that if you would have a mind your if you would start thinking differently and you will not like you said before, look at the future that you don't see light by the end of the tunnel. All you see is a dark place. Never made it. I will never make it. I've seen everything. I'm done. Or is it a chemical imbalance, which is really the person is completely not in charge on his thoughts, and this is something that it's an unfortunate thing, very sad, but it's nothing really uh that was could be done to prevent it. Suicide's tough. First of all, if anyone is listening to this, whenever if you're struggling, reach out to somebody, friend, a mentor, a therapist, somebody. And um there is help available. That's the first thing. There's a lot of different theories on suicide. I'm reading a book now this guy, Thomas Joiner. A colleague of mine recommended it. Um his his his theory is based on a few things. One is that people feel more and more socially isolated. They feel hopeless about their social situations. And then they in- increase risk their own doesn't necessarily mean direct self-harm, but they do risky things that increases the capacity to be able to hurt themselves. It's not but it's not a chemical imbalance. Could be a chemical imbalance, that does happen sometimes. Someone has a you know, schizophrenia or bipolar and they're and they're not regulated it you know, hormonally. But it's usually that's not the issue. Usually it's more a question of people become more and more hopeless, more and more despondent. And begin to see things only one way. And then they again, they're isolating themselves and they're you know, maybe drinking, maybe self-harming, doing other risky behaviors. Then it's very rare that a person just goes and and completes the suicide. Out of the blue. It's usually there's there's a build-up of of tolerance to the pain. Right. That they didn't share, that they kept inside for a very long time. And they they just can't take it anymore, the pressure. So so uh what is the light at the end of the tunnel? Just um you know, trying to change the way the person thinks. Uh so that means you you can prevent it. There's a cute story in this in this book I'm reading. There was a guy, a police officer was saying that um they got a call that there was someone on the bridge, they wanted to jump in San Francisco many years ago. And the cop said, "If you don't if you if you jump, I'm going to shoot you." The guy got down. Right? So it's good, it's true story, right? But it's but there's that right because instinctively our basic life force, our our will from our neshama, right, is to live. Right. >> But we but we there's so many again distractions, the messages that a person could get that moves them away from that. And if slowly they could get back to it, they could get healed. I think the most healing is when people speak to other survivors, people who either attempted suicide or almost and they come out of it a year, two years, five years, 10 years later and they say, "I'm so grateful to be here even though it's struggles." Then that's the that's the that's the been the home for people. It's a big consolation. And it helps people, but it's it's it's a lot of It's dark. It's fighting a lot of darkness. >> Yeah. Is there sometimes a medication that will will play a role in this thing? >> Medications are fine. I'm not a medication expert. >> Right. Some medications are helpful with suicidal thoughts. Some can make it worse sometimes. >> That's what I'm saying. >> Speak to a, you know, competent medication expert. Um but definitely I do recommend some clients for medication. If a client's on many medications, I'll often ask the psychiatrist about them because sometimes it's too many medications, but that has to be left to their own, you know, each person to the doctor and the prescriber. Right. Talking about emunah and talking about mindful, you know, to to be connected, to feel that you know, to to navigate life. What does emunah mean to you? That's a good question, but basically emunah means that every single thing I'm looking at is is all an interface that's God creating, God's pulling the strings. He's You know, my I don't know if you ever heard of him, he used to call him, he passed away, he used to he used to say God's the puppet master. I was listening to a shiur today from a Wyneberg from Moshe Wyneberg and he was saying that God is in like the the you know, like a water main, you know, the sending out all the shefa and it's our job to just we have to turn off Sometimes we think we could fool God, we could turn off the water and go do our own thing, but the water's always pumping. And it's our job to turn it on and and first of all for ourselves, but more importantly for others. The electricity, the water, whatever the muscle is, whatever the the metaphor is. So, you want to just really just tap into it over and over again. So, someone does something to you that's you think is a slight, you know, you think is is not but I think for you it's not the person. Everyone's going to give their own have karma and they give their own whatever reasons to have dinner husband, so to speak, why they did what they did. But for ourselves to remember that no one has any independent power. So, someone is actually doing everything. No matter what it looks like. And it's hard cuz we need to constantly remind remember that. So, what what this emotion what I'm being was saying is that the water meant the shaper is flowing by us trying to control or by us trying to do we lock it off. >> Right. We break it off. But as soon as you just let go, this thing is just going to keep flowing. Correct. >> That's what he was saying. Uh it's amazing stuff. That's good stuff. Right. Because the motion is is is is good. >> 24-hour generator. It just moves. >> Yeah. It's just we do this. We block it. We block it with our own moves. Now, as far as Simcha, let's say we really have Simcha to me. Simcha is everything, songs and singing and dancing. I eat it supposed to be with Simcha. Now, how does a person deal with Simcha when he's going through when he has a bitter day, real pain, and he wants to bring it and tell him be with >> Simcha. So, it's like kind of like telling someone to snap snap out of it. Telling someone to be with Simcha is also is again giving someone Simcha. So, that's why the background was approved of of me that there's two sides. Sometimes you need a you need a harsh guy. You need a little fireworks. Sometimes it helps. And but the point is not that it's not an end to itself. It's a means to an end. To live a life as simple as is connected to gratitude. When I appreciate what I have, appreciate where I am, I feel more happy. Simple is never outside of a Simple is never over there when I have this when this happens when this when I get married when I have this money when I get this contract when I live in that place, I'll be happy. Then you're never going to get it. So it was again tuning in. Tuning in blocking the noise. Again it's very hard some people do have talk of very difficult lives and I think everyone has a different level of different behavior of what the simple is to them. So some people they truly have no reason not to be happy and it's really a choice. Some people have a lot of reasons have a lot of cards stacked up against them. And the simple is a very simple I think I shall I could breathe. I'm happy I could breathe. And and then again they're struggling but it's at least again everyone on their own level. So it's not the same simple for everybody but it's it's a level of it's a choice of tuning in which again is very challenging in this day and age. When there's a new there's a new toy there's a new car there's a new gadget there's another shoe there's a new community there's a new vacation place. But simple is a new simple is the other thing in the world. Right. And that's that's good advice because even if you're going through a hard time and you're real pain but as if you can find the few things that is really you know that you're grateful for that will just change that mindset right into simple. Doesn't matter what is happening on the outside but you still have a set of eyes and you can still hear you can still walk and you can still drive and there's a million things that you can do that can bring you simple. I want to say something else and this also brings it's two sides simple is a side same sorry is a second side of a coin. Yeah. And only people who truly feel sad and grieve properly can feel truly be simple. And I think again going back to what I said before we live in a generation that's afraid to mourn properly and grieve again this above just was Mhm. So before you go through the motions you watch the videos okay when's it over when do we eat? It's good everyone should take care of themselves and And the same time it's like then you're looking for the simcha that's not real simcha. You're looking for the morning that's not real morning. Look for the simcha that's not real morning. So, simcha doesn't mean you're always jumping on the on on the top of a van smoking up. That's nice. That's cute, also. It makes people happy. Simcha means I'm living a life of being tuned in. I have a purpose. And I'm I'm sad. I'm noisen bal haver in a real way. And I'm also the simcha with others and myself in a real way. Wow. And Rebbe Nachman was saying that um you can borrow a simcha. And borrow it just like you borrow a loan from the bank. When you're short money, you borrow a loan. So, borrow a simcha, it's going to come. It's going to come back. Because in business, we know that the end is going to be okay. We'll take a loan or two and we'll take care of it, right? That's the mindset. Right. Now, Rebbe Nachman also has a lesson one of his big lessons is Azamra, which is find the good in yourself. And this is what you were saying before. So, Azamra is also uh a reaction to simcha. If you sing with what you have no matter what it is See the others. See it in every situation. Yeah. So, that that also helps. Now, do you feel that um Hisbodedus is is therapeutic? It is important. Would you would you say to a person to take an hour? >> people are doing Hisbodedus, we'd be out of business, the therapists. Cuz you talk to your father His Kolyakol. It's free. You can talk to him for 20 minutes. You can talk to him for 2 hours. It's unbelievable. >> Anywhere, he's listening. And he's has ways of responding. He has ways of sending the messages to all of the shluchim. A lot of messengers. And Hisbodedus doesn't mean just meditation. It means a holy aloneness. To be alone with the Bonai Olam and to tune into the messages he's sending us. So, it's a very powerful tool. It also doesn't need any substances. It doesn't need any fancy retreats. It's available whether you live in Monsey, you live in Brooklyn, you live in Canada, you live in Eretz Yisrael, wherever you are. It's unbelievable. >> It's available to anyone at any time anywhere. Yeah. In the process of his brother this is also is there like there's a gratefulness and chuva, right? First steps. The steps that But there's no IFS, there's no EMDR, there's no DBT, it's just learning how to communicate. Talking about chuva. Is is chuva also a just taking account of you know, of your life and today you want to be better than yesterday. How is chuva helping a person you know, live with clarity and and and with no guilt? I'm not there yet. I don't know. We have to we're doing this every day. Yeah. But you know, the the the one of the greatest books on chuva is of cook or is it chuva? Yeah. And I think it should be required. That's another speech for the same for the next for the next episode. >> Every school should learn >> I believe every every school should be learning of cook. I think it would save class or all. As I was saying, you know, those those who need it Those who need it don't have it. Those who have it don't need it necessarily, but you have but those who need it everyone should have it. And of cook is writing you know, basically that that's a song the song of chuva but the song because it's a nigan it's a simcha dick. It's not it's not and the labavitch the rebels also into this. You have to do is bring it out you have to think about our actions. But the most important thing is to see this is me convert. What am I doing now? Which goes back to my mindfulness piece. What am I doing? Who's the one who's doing it? Who's the one who's giving me the power to do it? How am I utilizing my time? Yeah, we have to fix the past, but it's a very vague thing how to fix the past because not everything's fixable. So if if you shout at the kind of call yes with nachas it's possible to fix. Right. But the greatest fixing we can do is in the moment. Moment to moment cuz life is now. Life is not what I did yesterday. Life is not what I'm doing tomorrow. Life is right now talking to you. That's right here. This is that's that's life. So by chuva for anything I've ever done in any conversation is not to talk to you like a mensch. Right? Maybe I have to make amends. Maybe somebody I have to apologize to. But if I'm if I'm dwelling on that, I'm not living now. Yeah. So you need both. Yeah. So Rabbi Cook has a a lot of chapters on Teshuvah. He has a whole whole safer. Not just on Teshuvah because Teshuvah was created before the world was created, right? And that's the same call coming up talking about the seasons. Elul is the happiest month of the year. Elul and Tishrei. It's the month of Hashem, it's Tishrei, right? Yeah. Is is because we're returning to ourselves, returning to who we are. We're not running away. We're not running here, we're not running there. We're connecting. >> cuz in the summer everyone goes on vacation, right? Where do we go people on vacation to find themselves? And ultimately the the the goal is to come home mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And our home for you is Yerushalayim. And if Yerushalayim is not built, no Geddes no Geddes built. Yeah. Yeah. So true. Um what do you say to a client who is not ready yet to hear about spirituality? He's not here. >> I mean, how does he But but is there a way how to deal with the you know, with his pain or with his according to psychology? First of all, they're hearing it anyway. So that's So I always try to, you know, get them to understand that they're not always realizing it. Yeah. But if they don't want That's okay. Not everyone wants to Not everyone wants to hear spirituality. And it's also important differentiate spirituality and religion. >> Religion, yeah. It's not the same thing. It's connected, but it's not the same thing. >> But some people aren't on a such a spiritual journey or path yet. Or they are, but they don't realize it. So again, coming back to thoughts, feelings, emotions. What am I doing? How am I doing it? In a very physical which is why I said back to yoga before. It's very It's a very physical practice. What am I doing? Is am I sitting correctly? Is my posture okay? The mind body Bringing back the mind body connection. It doesn't have to be so esoteric, so so out there. It's just how am I living this moment? And am I living in line with my values? Then again, it doesn't have to be spiritual values. Right. If a person has business values, they want to make They want to start a company, they want to make more money. So, how are you conducting your business day? Are you going to get a better time? Are you building habits that are conductive to being able to make more money? Are you meeting people? Are you fixing your resume? Are you Do you have the skills, the soft skills to run a business? Doesn't have to be so spiritual, but in a very basic way. And that's how people connect to the purpose from the bottom up. Do you find people can heal um without spirituality or without religion? Well, it depends how you define healing. I mean, they came because they had a problem. So, someone has a problem, someone has a phobia, and they Solve the problem. >> dogs, and uh after a few sessions they could they could you know, pet a dog, or they think of buying one even. Then they could heal. Uh but people who are really broken won't heal that way. Right. Reb Nachman also teaches about not relying on others. His whole foundation of teaching is not uh doesn't matter what another person has to say. Another person's opinion is not important. Um that a person cannot help you. That person cannot hurt you. So, as far as um in therapy, um a lot of people who come in and their anxiety and the fear that they have is about is about other people. So, how do you help them? So, the first thing is you don't want to make them dependent. So, I always tell clients that my goal is they shouldn't be here. Right. So, because if they're worried about other people, they're going to start worrying about the therapist. >> Right. So, that's an important thing. I don't want clients I don't want to be I don't want to have the same clients over and over again. I want people to do it on their own. Right, but part of the tools if if again, if you're talking about like social anxiety, learning how to tune out what you assume or even know other people are saying, and getting in tune and touch with what do you want from yourself? And DBT we call it wise mind. I call it the inner chacham, right? >> Yeah. We all have a little wise mind inside of us that like will guide us when we tune in. Again, there's very specific exercises in tuning into one's mind. They're not religious in nature. They're not even so spiritual. It's It's how do I tune into what my goal is, not in a selfish way. If I got it in a in a way that's altruistic and kind and giving. But it starts starts here so I could go out in the world where I'm supposed to and not just be worried about what every Tom, Dick, and Harry is doing. So, how do they change their mind? Let's say if they're afraid of other people that are afraid of other people are saying they're living for for the neighbors, they're living for for for the community, and they're living for the How does a person rewire that thought? First of all, they don't have to change They don't have to change their mind. They have to uncover their own mind. They have to change They have to They have to get rid of the other one. >> Right. So, this is why it's important to have mentors. Whether it's again, you know, a mentor. Yeah. Must be a rav, a rabba, but that's that's like somebody a guide that you trust that lives their life a way you say, "That's I want to I want to live my life that way. I want to live my life that way." A role model. A role model. And understanding and talking to them and understanding what they're doing that's enabling them to Cuz most people living that way struggled at some point cuz they were different than people in their surroundings. Right. They said, "I have I have a calling, an inner voice that's telling me that I need a find my path. And it's not going to be the same path as everybody else. It's not going to be that different. Ultimately, it all integrates. So, you go on your own path to help to be with others, not to separate. But and and talks about this in Charles of Reading. Says the point of having a habura is not to be different, is to be inclusive. But to But to be as to have a step ahead of everybody. Mhm. So, you know what you're being inclusive about because ultimately people will support and appreciate someone who has integrity and values. Now, that's called That's our side of the rav. That's what we're talking about that you should get yourself a rebbe, a mashpia. >> Not so easy in this day and age, especially. That's what I'm trying to say. There are people who are like uh, if they would really want to find one, but they is it an ego? Is it a govern that you say that you can't find somebody who is, uh, a role model, you know? A lot of people can't find the the person that they should open up to and and really that person never, uh, modeled for them that this is what I want. But it's hard to find. It's difficult. It could be done and it's I and it could be controlled. Sometimes people have a few people that they rely on. But there has to be some level of hachna, of submission of I was talking to a guy recently. Someone I know from Yeshiva, not not a close friend, but we have been chatting. He said, you know, he was in Yeshiva and then he was working and he's, you know, many years working and in the field now the therapy and whatever he does in business. And when he realized he did doesn't learn. So he hired a chavrusa and he learned two hours a day. And after learning for a few months, he realized that like there's a real difference between the way someone was learning things and someone was not learning things. So even if you're not connected to your rav, at least you're connecting to to something that's bigger than you. Greater than you. That's greater. So if you connect to Torah, connect to Torah. If it's not Torah, it could be other there's other books of wisdom that were that predate us that have a lot to So start with that. Find something that speaks truth and and work your way up. Right. What what the Nachman is saying that all the chassidish women saying that if you're spiritual and you have, uh, you're connected and you tap into the bun shalom, you're content with less. You don't need that much. You don't need, uh, consume a lot of things because you you're you're content. You're happy the way it is. And this is this is the goal that we have to, uh, you know, And Baruch Hashem in our generation there's a lot of shefa. There's a lot and that's great. There's a lot of things to be other than the sites and sounds from. And ultimately it's going to be, you know, such a slippery slope because it could be very distracting. Yeah. Now, from your clients, you see a lot of clients from all all kinds of All walks of life. All walks of life. What did you learn from your clients? Can you you Is there something stuck in your head that you that this guy teach me something? >> A lot from all of them. Be humble. Be human. Be curious. Stay open. Everyone's going through something. Yeah. Stay kind. Don't assume. There's a lot of don'ts, but there are also positives. Uh you know, what do you say? Because we know what not to do, we also learn what to do. So, now when you walk down the street, you look at people differently than the average person. Because when you talk to somebody, you start seeing that person is a oil and water. He has a world over there going that you would never see on the outside. Yeah. My favorite activity is going somewhere and making up stories with everybody. But at least that's in a positive way cuz cuz I know that everyone has Yeah. Everyone's going through something. Yeah. And what is a small ritual that let's say if a person wants to better themselves and decides, "You know what? I want to do something. I want to do mindfulness or whatever the case is. I'm living my life just like that. I want to take a step in the in the in the direction." What is a small tiny step that you would say, "Where should I start?" >> Well, everyone's going to have their own little works to do, but some one basic one that I found very helpful and others I found very helpful is a gratitude. Whether it's for 30 seconds, a minute, whether it's a gratitude meditation, or I think it's a little more powerful to write it down. It could take 30 seconds or less every day at some point. But the morning morning is probably a little better. Five things I'm grateful for. Five things every day. >> Whether it's the beer, open mouth, whatever is going on. And they don't have to be challenges. They don't doesn't have to be like you know, like one of these great ones. It could just be very simple. I'm grateful that there's milk to put in my coffee this morning. Yeah. Cuz when you really when you're grateful for the milk, you're grateful for the bottle of the milk. You're then you're grateful for the cup they bring the milk in. You're grateful for the coffee that's going into it. You're grateful for the person who brought you grateful for your ability that you had the cup. It It's It's a It's a reaction. So, the being like I said before, gratitude leads to joy. So, that's a very powerful, very short thing that really starts to lend itself with other parts of life. Right. And what message do you have for a person who feels lost, completely lost right now listening to this and he says, "You know what? Sounds very nice what you're saying, but I'm lost, completely lost." >> So, go back to what Nachman Nachman says that the in the Shaar HaTefillah, that's where you find that's you have the closest access to the voice of God because the person feels so alone. So lost. So, when a person's alone in the desert at night, there's only one companion. And that's the light of this. So, so then God for some people sounds very scary because they went through a trauma, someone abandoned them, someone did something to them that wasn't good. So, they feel abandoned by God. That's a good question. I don't have an answer for you. Same way I don't have an answer for the 6 million. I also know that that that question in itself, the anger, means you still you still want it. Because you're still there. And if you say forget about and don't believe in it, if you're numb, that's one thing. But when you're angry, it means that you want something better. And that wanting something better could fuel a person to to say, "You know what? I don't know if God's looking out for me, but I have to do it myself." And then they they they start to help themselves. And then eventually at some point they wake up, whether it's a day, a year, 100 years later, they wake up and say they know who was helping them all along. But sometimes the person has to pull themselves up by the bootstraps themselves, which is not easy. So, it's important to find friends. Not every community works for everybody. Find like-minded people, people who want to grow, people who are supportive, people with who appreciate you for who you for you are and also will challenge you. And slowly you do something good for someone else. You contribute. By contributing, you feel good, you're connected. And eventually you get out of the get out of the mud. Wow. Wow, that's that's that's smart. I want to talk about personality disorders. And I want to talk about uh um You see, this we were speaking a lot about positivity and what we should do and how, you know, gratefulness and talking to people and all this all beautiful stuff. But if someone is in on a journey of self-improvement and a lot of times this the toxic people, I'm not talking about friends, I'm talking about business, I'm talking about family, I'm talking about they will bring you down. I want to uh explore how important that is. And although it sounds harsh to cut these people out and how important it is to stay away from these people because if you're taking four steps ahead these people will just give you six steps back. Well, it's it's very tough. We talk about boundaries, we talk about people narcissism or borderline personality disorder or other titles people get. Yeah. Okay, so a lot of thoughts. So Okay, let's talk about let's say let's make a martial metaphor for a second. Let's say someone has an alcohol an alcohol addiction, right? Yeah. So if you go through a 12-step program, the goal is abstinence. The goal is cessation of every drink and but healing isn't actually not drinking. And healing is finding out how to fit the alcohol back in the life. So it's the same thing with with the personality people with personality disorders. I don't love diagnosis, but okay, let's stick with it for now. The goal is not to cut the person off. Mhm. The goal is is how can I use this person to become a better person? How can I how can I use It's it's again not in a selfish way, but in a very in a very in a way of of self-improvement. Like this person wants to pour all their gasoline on me. Right. How do I how do I take it and use it to say I'm going to be I'm going to be Superman. I'm going to be Superwoman. I'm going to I'm going to climb. Now, you do have to get out of certain situations. There are people who are abusive. People are very mentally, spiritually, physically, emotionally um physically, like I said, emotionally dangerous. Yeah. And a person to the best of their abilities if they can or help either get themselves out or help other people get out of those situations. I'm not saying the cutting off it doesn't because when we cut someone off we end up hurting a part of ourselves. Especially if it's a family member. Now again, how to deal with somebody especially if it's a parent who's abusive is a very it's a it's a it's a whole It's a whole big mishegas of its own. >> It's a whole mishegas of its own. Exactly. It's a whole topic in itself. For me that's never the goal as a therapist to have someone cut off totally. Now there are times a person can move out of the house has to separate. Ultimately the goal is to learn how to reintegrate. I say no, this person is sick. I'm not sick, they're sick. I don't take anything personally. But I only wish the best for them and I'm going to keep sending positive vibes, positive, loving kindness towards them. And with the hope and the prayer that one day they turn around. I don't like what they're doing. I don't agree with them. I don't love them. I don't live with them. And at the same time I know that they're just broken and this is the way that they're dealing with it. And ultimately somehow mend the relationship. It's not always possible. As a therapist it's a little different. If I'm a gastroenterologist, I'm a doctor and people have stomach aches you know what it's coming for. I can't say oh these people they they're nice people but they're they have stomach aches. I can't deal with them because it's not pleasant. Right. That's my job. Right. Right. So how do I help somebody with their emotional gastro issues? Uh it takes time. It takes a lot of self It takes a lot of um not self-care. Self-care also but takes a lot of um tuning in. So I'm not biased. I'm not holding a grudge against them. I'm not judging them for who they are. I'm separating the person and their actions. And even if they're doing it on purpose the hakadosh baruch hu keep coming back to it. Recognizing that every person ultimately could could improve in better ways is helps me do my job. Otherwise, otherwise, I'm not going to do a good job. Right. And, you know, getting back into the other guy, you know, it's a mixing back and forth. >> Yeah. So, there's two months down the summer, Thomas and Alf, right? And and Alf is Shimon and then and and Thomas is Reuben. Reuben is what you see and Shimon is what you hear. Right. Right. And Shimon's a person, right? And sometimes what you see is what you get. I see a person who's troubled, he's toxic, he's narcissistic, he's abusive. Okay, so we have to we have to take care of him. But when you're listening, you see again, you see here how the stable is the base of it is being destroyed. The sin of sinam is very broken. But when you start having the Oh, we need to get into the fixing is listening and say You say Shimon is two things. Shimon is to hear, but also Shimon means to look differently. Lift up your eyes on high. So, when the seeing and the hearing come together, when I could when I when I start listening, I hear the footsteps of Manoa Harav Kook and Rav Asser. I could hear the footsteps of Mashiach coming in all the brokenness. I hear the base of it is crackling. I hear this person screaming and yelling. He's yelling narishkeit. He's he's staying, but he's There's a fire the fire burning in him is is the fire of Mashiach because he's so broken. The only thing that's going to fix him is is a spiritual reawakening. It's a total It's a total makeover. Then you By seeing the person that way, looking at him, he could he could hear it and hear it himself. And then hopefully they could get better. But if you someone has to believe in them. Right. So, in your practice and the people that you see, did you see ever real problematic people, toxic people change? So, I Yes. I mean, the short answer is yes. I mean, I don't work with people in the prison system. I don't work with people, you know, who are active abusers. Other people do. That's again, that's another chapter to itself. But I've worked with people who are difficult people and and the the goal is is for them to take some ownership of what they're doing in kind of a very basic way, not getting so deep. And then you try to change those ways because usually they were wired that way. My mother once told me something very smart. So now I said to her once, I said, "Sometimes I want my clients to grow up. Just grow up." And she said, "You're right, but they grew up that way." And she's right. So like so it's growing up isn't always enough. They grow up differently. >> Right. Now, what happens if let's say the person who the victim, the codependent who is being abused and that person is a sponge and it takes everything in and uh for them the best way would be to stay away. I mean they don't have the tools or I guess they have to learn to have the tools to live with that person or to to take this garbage all the time and and and just >> Right. 100% So sometimes the person does have to get out. Again, like I said, if someone's being actively abused, if it's a dangerous situation, especially if it's child abuse, people do have to get out. And and they have to know it's not them. And they they wanted to have their voice, they wanted to have their their soul back. And and but uh and ultimately the goal is to is for them to in some way make Again, you have to be I have to be careful, but somehow hold space for whatever they can hold. But first they have to take care of themselves. That's the absolute the first step. Right. Hiya column. I want to thank you for coming in. Thank you. >> You're welcome. Oh, so fun. Yeah. >> It was a pleasure having you you reminded us that healing can come from from other places also. You know, not only talk, you know, it's it's coming uh it's a dance between the mind, the body, and the soul. And sometimes singing, and sometimes sit sitting in silence. It's all these places that reaches all the way to heaven. This is This is it. This is it. This is good stuff. So the message to remember is no despair. Shem Yish Boruch. Right? This is the message to remember. I want to thank you for coming and I want to thank you for giving us your time. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Pleasure.