The Question We’re Not Asking Our Kids | Rabbi Yossi Bensoussan | Behind the Bima #202

[music] >> Welcome back behind the Beamer. We had a great conversation with Rabbi Yossi Ben Shushan who is not only entertaining people know him as a great speaker, but he's actually a deep thinker. Yeah, on issues of parenting and the like and we'll get to that momentarily. But first try by Maslow. >> What's What's new? >> We had an intense week together, didn't we? >> We did have an intense week. Not intense not intense like God forbid tragic or sad or rabbinic in the classic rabbinic. Yeah. Why was it intense? >> [laughter] >> We had our EOS integrator here with us this week as we do our two-day annual planning >> your middle name? Implementer, implementer. >> Implementer, sorry, not integrator. Um we have adopted EOS Entrepreneurial Operating System as a way of operating here at BRS. And I say adopted, I mean we are in the adopting process. We are >> We're on a journey. >> We're we're getting a failing grade in our one-year um grading system, but but it was really eye-opening and part of the beauty of it is that it puts a mirror to you and things that you might say about how we're doing and how we could be doing he really puts it up to you and says are you really accomplishing what you >> True. Should I share what we did that I found so powerful? >> Powerful. You were you looked like you were having a colonoscopy. >> At least then you get to be asleep. Um EOS is amazing Entrepreneurial Operating System. >> And he can tell you >> of you who are unfamiliar with the library of books, Traction, How to Be a Good Boss, Rocket Fuel, it's an amazing system. If you own a business, work at a business, want to bring it to your business, and C Schwarz, our incredible implementer, the top in the world of coaching uh EOS um is really dedicated to shul, yeshiva, school. The Jewish people have to stop being hamish, stop being mediocre, stop just really organize and have an operating system and professionalize because if we're going to do it, do it right. And do it the best we can and that's what EOS lets us do. >> an operating system because I think operating system, I think of a Dell computer. This is much more than that. >> Yeah, it's an operating system your your whole organization from right person, right seat, get it wanted, capacity to do it, how you evaluate yourself, what are our core values that we live by, how do we have every quarter rocks that we need to achieve, one year, three year, 10 year goals that we're trying to pursue. >> you on task and to make sure that what you're doing quarter to quarter is matching up and aligning with your one year, three year, 10 year vision. >> How do you have weekly meetings they call L10 meetings that have a scorecard let you evaluate are you on track to accomplish your things? We measure things very differently in a non-for-profit. It's not about revenue or money, obviously, but it has done enormous work for us so far. We've been doing it for about a year and we're just getting started and we've rounded out our leadership team and it's super exciting. So, Toby was in for two days, two intense no phone hour straight. >> And then my wife hates those days. She says, "These are the two days I can't get in touch with you at all during the day." >> Yeah. I was like, "Yeah." And then you know, day one was really I I don't want to hear I don't know if he'll hear it. Day one was knocking us down, God forbid. Day one was holding up the mirror as you said. Day one was reality check. Day one was your physical. Let's get you Let's look at your lab results. Let's talk about where you're really at and what really is the state of your health and then day two is based on that, let's rebuild, let's put it back together. >> together after I destroyed you. >> he did an exercise which was really interesting. I wonder whether it can be done in a family setting. So much of EOS I wonder how much could be applied. The idea of knowing your purpose, your mission statement, your core values, your partners and your goals. There's so much. There's so much. Which one of the mission we're going to we're going to have to see on and and behind the go EOS together. But on day one in business he described that we're you know, businesses that say we're a family, we're a family, we're a family. Well, most families if they have more than one person in them are dysfunctional. So, you don't want to be a family, you want to be a team. He talked all about and brought a lot of examples and evidence. So, to be a team you have to go vulnerable. You have to be willing to connect, to care. So, we did an exercise which was fascinating. Fascinating. >> I've never felt more tension in a room when he announced the exercise. >> And then it was not nearly as bad though as we thought, but probably because we didn't go as deep as we could. And he says in the future we will. But anyway, piece of paper was handed out there, five people on our leadership team. We're talking about the professionals now, not our lay leaders. And a piece of paper, two pieces of paper rather. One piece of paper was you write down the name of everybody in the room. And you write down for each person something you admire about them. And something you want them to either start or stop. Something in their behavior that start doing this more or stop doing that. You write that about each person in the room. And then the second piece of paper is you write down the name of everyone in the room. And you listen as they say it about you and you write it down. >> And the whole purpose of this is obviously not to beat you down, but it's to acknowledge that you can't grow as a team if there conversations that aren't being had. Right. So, if there's something about you that I wish you would start or stop, but we're not comfortable talking about it, then everything else is a house of cards because until you and I learn to have the difficult conversations, we're never going to be able to build that >> People might might not imagine this about me. I'm very You can confront I'm not confrontational. I don't like to give feedback. You know, people don't think that about me, but um whatever. I I can get over those. >> to it. >> If you had a couch, I could lie down here and tell you all the >> aversion to it. >> pathology. I have an aversion to it. I really avoid it like anything. I don't like it. That actually created what felt for me like a really safe space to do it because we were doing it for everyone. I was participating in it myself. It was clearly for a greater good and as an exercise. It was really well done that, you know, you first the admire and then and we went around. And I said I'll go first cuz I wanted to take the hits first and hopefully demonstrate that we need to be able to do this. And you know, the admire part was not I want you to sing. I'm also very bad at taking compliments. It's actually become complicated when I go out and and thank God the more of a public person I am, I'll just say that. The more people come over and it's my kids and wife make fun of me. It's very awkward. They go, "All right, I listen to this show. I love it." And I'm I'm always You have to There's an art to taking a compliment and I haven't figured it out yet. Again, whatever the pathology on that. But But I actually this wasn't that. Like I didn't try to shut it down. No, no, no. Just skip. Tell me what I need to work on. I appreciated because it was specific. And I felt like these are people who know me, work with me, care about me. I hope No, I care about them. And I really appreciated it. >> Do you remember what everyone said? >> One person, yeah. >> I do. And I know the one I know you're thinking of cuz you were surprised at he said it. >> I really appreciated it. >> And you really appreciate it because it's not what you're known by. >> Cuz in other words, not everyone would know that about you. Not everyone would agree with him. I really appreciated that. But then and then we came to the And And I really appreciated what people said I need to work on. And then by the way, at the end of that exercise, everybody had to take a kabbalah. Everybody had to take upon themselves for this year >> feedback. >> Based on the feedback, one thing that they're going to change or work on. Start working on >> Imagine if like in a in a mussar vaad, in a group of people, in an all time. If you gave out an exercise like your close group of friends, here's something that Cuz Cuz we all have blind spots. That's That's the honest truth. We all have blind spots and we all think that we're doing a pretty good job, but we're we're missing some of it. And sometimes you need your friends to be able to point out to you in order to grow. Wouldn't it be great if you sat around with four or five people who you really trusted, like really really trusted, >> Yeah. >> and did this exercise and basically said like point out my blind spots so I can take a kabbalah next year and not where I'm lying to myself again and being like This is the year I'm going to I've I've tried to do that for the last 15 years, but I'm missing what everyone knows I need to work on. >> I love that. If you have If you have a >> It have to be a very safe space. >> you could do it in your family. One of the things I liked about it, let's just say that when I shared this, not everybody thought One reaction I got was um >> Why can't we do that to you? >> No, no. That's true. But this is a very millennial thing where everyone has to tell you like Like you're the boss. you're the like I said, "No, that's not the way it works. In order to be a leadership team and to be the team, I really appreciate and enjoyed that." Like there was no exception. There wasn't like you know, he he's the route. Like be kid gloves because of that. It was around this table and for this purpose and that goal. So like could you do that in a family? Like we're the parents. So yes, on the one hand there's there halachically but I have to be respectful. >> No, I don't think that's a contradiction at all. And I'll tell you, I have a rebbe who every Motzei Shabbos for years right before they said Havdalah everyone at the table had to go around and say one thing they were going to work on that week. And he said and he said, "Well, no, but >> That's not >> But you could also >> asking everyone at the table, tell me one thing I should work on this week. >> that, but he felt very strongly that it's important that his children know that he's also work in progress. And those don't think that mommy and daddy >> That's very valuable. No, because that's also like >> Could a family sit down and the parents >> I believe that. >> participate with the children. Everyone's going to go around right now and say something they admire and something they want the member of the family to start or stop. >> a very healthy family construct. If it's not healthy to begin with >> What do they say, "Abba, what I want you to stop is telling me what to do." >> Okay, too bad. But if they could say, "Abba, I want you to stop pick your example. Um you get angry at me too easily sometimes. You're you're lazy sometimes. You're whatever. Like okay, that like that's interesting that my kids would notice that about me. Again, we all have blind spots. So it can continue to be a blind spot or you'd almost rather um this is where you and I maybe differ a little bit. Also, we've spoken about this a lot. I'm very comfortable in those conversations. I'd almost prefer them and you know that about me. Like >> Being direct. >> If you think something about me, I'm I'm I admit I'm not perfect. Like tell me and I'll work on it. So I'd almost rather that like than dance around and that's why I thought it was such a healthy conversation. >> It was great and I love the idea of adapting it. I don't want to say just using it, but adapting it. >> Maybe with friends or maybe with your family at mealtime or anytime to just say. It was such a great format. What you admire. It was also it wasn't what you admire and what you criticize. It was start stop. Start stop is great. Like start doing this. I would love you to do this more. Like what if your kid said start start spending more time with me. Start putting your phone away when we have dinner. You know or >> That's what I'm saying. That's where it could be really healthy. >> Or stop like like you said like stop reacting this way or communicating that way or stop taking pictures when I didn't give you permission to put on the family WhatsApp group. >> you to know even if you just did the first part the what I admire about you Dyanu because I don't think we do a good enough job of telling the people we love what we admire about them. Like even the person who gave you that feedback. >> And we're going to leave you incredibly curious what >> But there was no other venue where he would have given you that feedback. >> Right. >> And and that's helpful to you. So sometimes even >> there are maybe other times you'd be like what does he need? Why is he buttering me up? >> So sometimes even it's like if if one of your children came to you and said I want you to know I really admire the work you did and I know it means to you you're not always around but I just want you to know you're like you would love that and that would help you in a lot of ways. >> To Schwartz best in the business. Big shout out to him because he's incredible and he's taking us to places we didn't know we could go. Great husband dear friend >> Yeah I'll just you know I know you're trying to do your pivot now but knocked me right out knocked you right out of the front seat but I want to give you a little love. What I what I love about Svi are so many things. He he he's like it's all in. It's like a full body experience with his energy and passion and the good the the challenging like he's all in it with you the entire he shvitzing with you the entire time and I love that in person. I love that in people. >> I agree and EOS again we we don't get paid by EOS. We don't get EOS you know we're not part of the EOS network with some royalties. We're speaking about it because it's amazing and it's it's a platform that you we could just stop settling. Stop settling for mediocrity. Stop settling for trying to figure out on your own. Stop settling for it's good enough or we're even great. It's not relative to other people. It's how great are you relative to who you could be if you'd maximize your energy your resources your people your everything. What kind of goals what are you leaving on the table that you could be accomplishing? >> So many other thoughts part of this conversation but I know you want to >> No we could come back. It's amazing and we highly recommend it and and nobody better than Ceci. So, big thank you to him and nobody better Yossi Ben Shushan. Great conversation. It's an appetizer. This was a short episode, teaser. He and we had places to go, but we just we got a conversation started with a lot of think about about ourselves, about people, about children, about I haven't stopped thinking about his child throwing rocks at the at the frozen pond. No, I'm teasing. I I haven't stopped thinking about that as a muscle for for life. We've recorded a bunch of great episodes coming out. We're debating editing out part. And it's interesting, let us know like, what are people's goals for Behind the Bima? We get a lot of feedback. Do more banter, less interview, more interview, who cares about the banter? What if you knew that there were other parts? >> are speaking to people and yeah. >> Yeah, do we have like a paywall member with the parts that we cut out cuz like if we're going to get beaten up, we should at least like raise some money for the raise some money for the show doing it. >> a phase two of the campus that needs to be done. >> some interesting upcoming incredible episodes. Should we tease out who they are? They can guess which one? We have things to >> Yeah, tease them for we did one last week. >> Chaim Gurary with a guitar. We mixed in kumzits in a conversation. >> I want you to know that one had my head spinning for like a good day afterwards. There's something very powerful in the room during that interview. >> Yeah, yeah. Rabbi Yossi now, we had a very long conversation with our friend who we know for a long time, Dovid Newberger. >> head. He was I was his former division head when he was seven years old. >> And some other upcoming incredible conversations. So, we'll see whether you get the whole thing or the edited thing. We will do for the right donation to BRS, we'll send you the unedited. Of all those, I'm not I'm not saying which one. I'm not saying which one. It could be the one of them. But for now, sit back and enjoy Rabbi Yossi Ben Shushan. Welcome back Behind the Bima, the privilege of being with the great Rabbi Yossi Shushan. >> Ben Shushan. >> Ben Shushan, like Purim. >> Like Purim. >> of Shushan Purim. >> That's that's that was my childhood right there. >> for >> [laughter] >> So, what's what's the origin of your name? >> So, it's not it's not Benchujian. It's I'm about to out the whole thing. It's It's really Bensoussan. And it's Bensoussan from from my understanding of Bensoussan, you ask, you know, but both families, my grandmother and grandfather's family were Bensoussan. >> Mhm. >> It's a very common Moroccan name. Apparently, but they're not related. >> Okay. >> Uh very common Moroccan name. They even spelled it different. I believe one was with a sin and one was was with a samach. We're with a sin, but when my father came to America, um I believe from my understanding from him was that he felt that Americans, as a little kid I didn't speak English. I only spoke Arabic and French. I think in his head Americans were able to say sh easier than saying s. So, >> So, you just think that you wanted to make it sound >> much more Americanized than >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, I [laughter] said I was like, you know, you couldn't want a Levy cuz we were a Levy Bensoussan in Morocco. It was Levy Bensoussan. And and he cut out the Levy and he went with Bensoussan. I was like, you could have just done the Levy and everyone Everyone >> would have known and understood it better. >> Now it's a good stage name cuz it's memorable. >> Have you been to Morocco? Have you traced your roots? >> It's interesting that you asked that because literally I just got back. My first time ever going. What day of the week is it? I don't know, but I got back on Today's Wednesday or Tuesday? Yes, I got back on Monday. >> Oh, wow. >> How long were you there? >> Uh 10 days, 8 days. >> Highlight? What's the highlight? Was it a group trip, family trip? >> trip. Our favorite MDY uh Rabbi Stefansky. >> Right. >> So, his uh it was his appreciation trip for his donors. And my brother and I sort of tagged along. >> Nice. >> As as the entertainment, I guess. >> Nice. >> And it was mind-blowing. It was I highly recommend >> What was the highlight? >> Uh Lalla Soulikat. It's It's a uh um It's a cave over there of a girl named Lalla Soulikat. She's She's the famous one who pinned uh the skirt when she was being dragged uh through the streets cuz she refused to convert. But refused to convert and marry the king or marry the whoever was in charge then. It was the Almohads that were the So she uh her great So we ended up by her cave and no one knew, but on the way to the cave or someone I don't know what they were looking up on their phone, but someone was like, "You guys aren't going to believe this, but it's her yard site today." And we happened to be going like right then on that day on that And I don't know what happened, but when I walked up there, something hit me and as I was going to go I was talking to someone about something completely mundane and silly and and I'm walking up and I just started crying. I had no idea and then I was so embarrassed cuz I was like not just crying. I was like going for it. And then I was so embarrassed and I looked around and realized no one was even paying attention to me. Everyone was crying. No one had any idea why. Everyone was moved emotionally. Everyone started crying. >> highly recommend it. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Now, are you a rice eating Moroccan on Pesach or no rice? I know Moroccans can go both ways. >> No rice. It's good eating at sea. >> That's how you really knows Moroccan. You got the worst of both worlds. >> Yeah, you have to get up in Elul and you don't get kiddush. Every single one. Moroccans are machmir on everything and we get to I remember one time my father said to my mother it was like it was like two days before Pesach and he's like, "You know, I think I remember in Morocco that they didn't eat kitniyot." And my mother was [laughter] like, "I'm out. I'm telling you right now. I would this is this is the final straw of the camel's back. I am going to leave >> All right, so I want to jump on something that you said just now about your action while you were there that connects to the work that you do. Um and that is you said that you don't know where you just started crying and it wasn't like a manly like, you know, look the other way, cough cough it out, you know, swallow it down, but you leaned into it and you went all in on the cry. >> Oh, yeah. >> Now, first of all, for a Sephardi man, that's unusual. A lot of Sephardi men hold it close to the chest. You don't see a lot of emotion. >> passionate. >> Moroccans are passionate. >> I was going to say. Yeah, Moroccans are passionate. >> We talk a a about and we see that there's a lot of pressure, a lot of stress on men to be very performative, to be very macho, to look like they have it together. Guys see each other, "How's it going?" "Amazing, great, all good. Everything all good." It's a lot of performance, a lot of performative living. And that ability to be vulnerable and take off the armor and cry. How important is that to use that in the work that you're doing and >> Without a question. I think I think it's I think you know, I have this theory on on the Satan and the Yetzer hara that like anytime something is too tarred, it's too given. So like the example I always like to use is Friday afternoon. Right? It's Arab Shabbos is brought down in so many places as being this incredibly like this incredibly opportune time to be able to brings it down. It's brought down all over the this incredibly opportune time to be able to accomplish certain things in life. And I believe I mean I believe it's brought down I believe it's a Zohar that says that the Yetzer hara said to Hashem, like this isn't fair. Like cuz it's specifically true. It's like, "I got them to sin all week. I'm working hard all week long. You know, you've sent me out there to do this and now just Arab Shabbos comes and they all get to you know, it's not." And he said, "You know what? You're right. Um you're going to have tiara." So he makes us tarred on on Arab Shabbos that like we never have time. Shabbos could start at 4:00 or 9:00. I'm always jumping out of the shower 8 minutes after that. Like it's like no matter what, it's always So I feel I feel vulnerability and machoism versus machoism and all these things is one of those things that the the Satan was just allowed to hypnotize, for lack of a better term, every man to being this to to to thinking that being a man is being macho, being a man is being is not showing emotion emotion, is not showing and and not definitely not being vulnerable so that or because if every man would start being vulnerable the world doesn't stand a chance. I'm saying the Yetzer hara wouldn't stand a chance. If we every single time, you know, unfortunately it has to get to this place, but anytime I'm sitting in a in like a group therapy with people or I'm sitting in a an AA meeting or any sort of 12-step meeting or anything, it had to get to that point for people to start opening up and and and saying, "Yeah, me too. Me too. Me too. Me too." If anyone would have been able to do that 5 years before that, no one would have needed the meeting. It's it's it's a given. No one wants to talk about it. No one wants to share with their friends and say you and definitely not be that first guy who does it. What is a shame? What's holding them back? >> Yeah. >> Mostly shame. >> Yeah. And how do you get people to do it though? Cuz it's easy for us to say you should be vulnerable, but >> Yeah, so I I I go about it two ways. It it's it depends on it a lot of it depends on the age and a lot of it depends on the number one is meaning, right? It's a big Victor Frankl concept. If you give a man meaning behind doing anything, he'll do it. And they find I I found this among men all over that if they thought they were doing something for their kids, right? Let's say they're afraid of heights, but their kid is on a balcony or something, they'll run out onto that balcony in 2 seconds they got their kid off of the balcony. And all of a sudden no one's afraid of heights anymore. You know, they're afraid of snakes, but you know, there's a snake next to their kid or whatever, they'll kick that thing, you know, they'll kick a field goal with it just to get rid of it. Like all of a sudden when a man specifically has meaning to something, he's able to let it go. When it's done, interestingly enough, the the curse is the blessing where if it's done in a setting where the man feels that it's being impactful, that the brave thing to do over here is to sort of go first and be vulnerable and that's going to help everyone and the strongest man in the room is the one who's the most vulnerable, then they're able to to be that way, you know, more than other times. With when I'm working with teenagers, it works similar, but you have to find, especially if it's a group of them or a classroom of them, you have to find that one kid that's sort of the leader, get him to slowly open that up, and then all of a sudden it becomes an okay thing to do. But, they need permission. That's the big thing. Shame just needs permission to be allowed to not be shame anymore. And and then it becomes a superpower, I mean. >> What what happens when that which they used to be ashamed of becomes a point of pride? Like sometimes when teenagers you have kids who there used to be some unhealthy >> stigma >> stigma around they they get therapy, they have a therapist, they're on medication. Now it's sort of like >> Yeah. >> your therapist and how often you go, or what medicine you're on, or what problems you have, or So >> Yeah, this has become this has become a you know, a little bit of a of a counterintuitive problem that we we we run into. Um I I refer to the whole concept, although it doesn't really apply to the whole concept, but I like to refer to the whole concept to the whole mentality of that is trauma bonding, right? The The idea of trauma bonding is that oh, we never have to work on this ever again. You know, it becomes an identity. The The whatever it is becomes an identity, and like you said, becomes like this badge of courage sort of that like and it and it should be a badge of courage in a way, but they find that the more they have these negative labels that they're able to use, the less anybody is going to try to get them to do anything. And the less anyone tries to get you to do anything, less is expected of you, and every single specifically younger younger boy, but you know, I've seen it with girls also, all they want is no one to expect anything of them. The reason being that they're certain that they're going to let them down. And in reality, they just don't want to let anyone down, but they just don't want anyone to expect anything of them. So, if they present with I have all these problems and all these issues and all these things, then I'm not the guy. You know, don't ask me to be better at this, or be good at that, or be reliable for anything, or >> Sort of lowers the bar. >> Yeah. >> And it's changing the paradigm and helping them realize that the answer is within themselves, which what to try to avoid. >> Yeah, yeah. It went It just went, you know, either direction where it used to be uh shameful to be that thing. They just wanted to fit in. So, now fitting in is Well, fitting in is also just don't look at me. Don't pay attention to me. Don't ask me to do anything different than what everyone else is doing. Don't ask me to It's now fitting in has become a lot more of just being able to be left alone. Since their world is that they're still doing that, the idea of trying to fake perfectionism. It's just that you know, I'm not big into beating up on technology too much, but with technology, it that's where they're living. So, the faking the perfectionism is all out there for them. They get that hit of dopamine from doing that already. Now, in the real world, just sort of leave me alone so I can get back to doing that quietly in my room with no one bothering. >> So, how did Rabbi Henry get into this? How'd you get How'd you get into this? How did this become your career? What was your trajectory to this line of work? >> It's It's weird. Um >> Tell us about your background, your childhood. >> far I'm I'm the only person I'm not the only, but one of the only people I know that had no background personally and personal experience with any of it. Um I uh I was I was in Israel. Long story. I wanted to join the army. I wanted to this. Well, that's a whole thing, but >> Um Where'd you grow up? >> I grew up in Brooklyn. I grew up in Brooklyn, and then I was in the Five Towns from time I was about 14 in uh high school, and then a little bit for Yeshiva, and then I went to uh then I went to Eretz Yisrael, uh Rav Asher Rubenstein. So, that wasn't a big American Yeshiva, but uh but it was Kletzk neck. Um Rav Asher Rubenstein and Tersemcha and Sorotzkin. And I was there for a while, then I went to the Mir. And while I was there, a friend of my Oh, no, my brother, one of my brothers was helping out during bein hazmanim at his Yeshiva in Tzfat. And I would go up with him every now and then. And it was It was more of a rehab. And I just I fell in love with the guys. I fell in love with the whole concept of it. And working with them was just It was the most real everything else was stripped away. It was just real suffering to real bonding to it was just the whole thing was so real. I you know, I didn't and I always had a thing with working with people before with people and care of wasn't really my uh well, blatant care was not really my it just didn't fit me so well. Um but this this I loved. I don't know and I just uh from there I knew I wasn't formal enough to be I the way I work with people isn't formal enough to have been a therapist and um one of the doctors that were working in that rehab introduced me to interventionism and crisis intervention and I got hooked immediately. I I it was a share and a sham of mine. You know, being in the crazy I'm more comfortable when things are nuts than when it's calm. I don't know. >> So you came back to America, you got training? >> So yes, I got training there. Um I became a alcohol and substance abuse counselor there um and a crisis interventionist over there. I came back to America and I was going to go further training but I I just started getting jobs and things and it just uh now I just train myself I get stuff in the job. >> And when did you know that you had a gift for speaking in a way that would you know, become popular and engaging? >> and honestly I I'm not a really good speaker to be honest with you. I I you can always tell a good speaker because if you ever meet them in person they're well, really good speakers are not like that when you're meeting them in person. Not in a bad way, it's just like they're presenting something. It's a lecture. It's a I'm the same exact person when I'm on and off. Um I I have to speak about something I'm passionate about. If I'm passionate then I can speak and speak and speak. If I'm not you're so if you've ever seen me speak about like uh I don't know dating or something like that. They always force me onto these panels for dating and I don't know what to do on them. Like it's not where I it's not my it's not what I know, you know. >> What is your favorite topic? >> Anything to do with crisis or issues of uh child raising. I love I became I didn't even know this about myself, but I love topics on chinuch, interpersonal relationships. So I guess dating could technically be considered that, but it has to be like there's an issue going on. Um and uh bein adam l'atzmo. Uh recently it's a lot of bein adam l'atzmo. Um with mainly with like families and parents. Um all those years of working with the person suffering from an addiction or suffering, I realized that I wasn't it wasn't it was great and a lot of people got got got a lot of help. But working with our support system is incredibly more effective. Like you're cutting out years, like literally years and and and so much else and the end result is so much better. So I find that like working with families has been So anything to do with like uh advising families or anything like that, those are my topics. I love them so much. >> Mhm. And you referenced chinuch as a passion to speak about. Is the deck of cards so stacked against the teenager nowadays? I feel like, you know, every generation I'm sure said our generation is the hardest, but you can't deny the fact that there have been acceleration factors, whether it's technology, AI, things that are just moving at such a rapid pace >> Yeah. >> that it's like for a parent to throw up their hands, I can't keep up with all of it. Like I'm suffocating over all the challenges my teen is facing. What would you tell that parent that just like I I literally Not only do I not understand my teenager, but I can't keep up with them. >> Well, it's a community issue also. It's like what's the goal? And and when we when we reverse engineer it, it becomes very clear. So if the goal is for them to be as frum as the generation beforehand and by frum we mean just sort of following that path of frum kind, it's not going to happen. The Then yeah, the cards are totally stacked against them. Uh one of the main reasons being that, you know, if you go back 70 years, 80 years, I'm saying Jews were in ghettos. Like they didn't have a choice but to be a Jew. Like you could not believe, you could not, but you're still going to be a Jew. They didn't want you anywhere near them. Like guy didn't let Now, a kid doesn't want to be Jewish, they'll give him a Netflix special. They're like they'll love him. They'll they'll welcome him with open arms. He like he got he got away from the cult of Judaism. Like they'll love that kid. They have these opportunities and these ways of of uh and opportunities of of being able to do things that even me as a kid, and I wasn't a kid that long ago, nothing. It like there's no it's not even comparable. But personally, I think that's gorgeous. I I just I think their fight is different, but I think it's beautiful. The amount of that these kids use on the average day is amazing. Because even the way things have become a little bit more relaxed with them. They could get away with a lot more than they're taking advantage of, I believe. A lot of them are, but for the most part, if there's a kid who's also dedicated and is like, you know, I'll go for like more of a you know, not my community where like you have a kid who's like dedicated into NCSY or or into one of these The kid's a tzaddik in my opinion. Like I I don't know what's wrong with them. There is some I would never have been able to do that. I would never have been Back in my day, if you wanted to do something wrong, there was an avodah. Like you had a There were people you had to bribe, adults you had to bribe. Like it was hard to pull this stuff off. >> Magazine stores, yeah. >> Yeah, it was really difficult. I wasn't sure what I wasn't sure what the content was all about. >> I'm just talking about fine, you [laughter] know. Yeah. But the NBA playoffs edition, that's all. >> Finding out this NBA playoffs is a is a rough topic for us right now. It's Cleveland, we >> Yeah. >> It's a good rough night last night. >> Now, we we have brought in by the Bima over the last few months have had several guests here in the seat you're sitting in, and they're all dear friends from Rabbi Kalish and Rabbi Moshe Don Kestenbaum, sort of representing the more we just got to love them, validate them, hear them, you know, kids are our equals, make them feel seen, heard, loved. And And to Rabbi Kastel, expectation was a dirty word. You destroy kids when you have expectations of them. Don't ever use that word. And then our our good friend Rabbi Kastel was in the seat. >> Oh wow. I was just on the phone with him. I was literally just on the phone with him like 10 minutes ago. >> All good friends. Baruch Hashem. And Rabbi Kastel sat there and it was, you know, all respectful and not even directly speaking to or about one another, but we were just speaking in general. Rabbi Kastel is all about his Yeshiva, here's the expectations, push yourself, you could do it, we'll get you there, you got to have big dreams, aspiration, expectation. So is expectation a dirty word or is expectation a critically important word for you? >> Yes. On all accounts. I don't I I I feel like in general, I'm sure you're not saying it like this, but people who ask a lot of times like this one said that and that one, I feel like everyone just wants an answer. So so they're they're jumping for that answer. Like give me that I think the answer is very high. Like everyone knows this already, obviously, but it depends on the kid. Like there there are kids that that thrive on their expectations. They love that idea. They take it as a compliment. They they want people to expect things of them and they want to rise to that occasion. There are other kids who because growing up expectations were just things to prove how how inept you are at life. Expectations were set so that you fail, so that we could put you back into your place. And no matter how well they did at something, it was never enough. So I think expectations is just saying, like I said before, just about every single teenager I've ever met, their biggest fear, hands down, biggest fear in reality is letting people down. That's the real thing. It's It's where the real shame comes from. >> I don't I don't I see that. >> Yeah, so I'll >> It doesn't express itself in that way. >> So it does not So that's the thing. It definitely does not express itself in that way. I got a call one time from uh from a kid who I was work I worked at one point with his older brother. I I met this kid maybe once. He calls me up and he was in New York. I believe I was in I don't remember. I was a thousand miles away. I was nowhere near where this kid was. He calls me up and he goes, "My friend's over there saying, you got to get over here." I'm like, "It's not It's not even a thing." I'm like, "Call Call Atzalah. Call What do you call it?" So he's like He's like, "No, no, no. You got to get over here. It can't We can't call Atzalah. We can't call Atzalah. My parents will kill me." I'm like, "You don't I don't think you understand what's happening." He's like He's like, "His parents will kill him." I'm like, "Well, I don't think they'll have a chance if you don't get on the phone and make a phone call right now." And we're going back and forth and back and forth. And I was like, "Fine, fine. I'm on my way. Where are you?" And I hung up on him and I called Atzalah and just told him to go there. But the the the point was is that their biggest fear was that they were going to be in trouble. But what what does in trouble mean? Why do they care? It means that they're going to see that look on their parents' face. Their biggest fear was that they're going to be in trouble to the point that when we see this psychologically with with with adults also, when your biggest fear is something, you try to push that thing away as much as possible. So if if a person's biggest fear is commitment, they will not allow themselves to get close to people. Even if that person is not yet or anywhere near asking for a commitment of any kind. But because you might get that close to start asking me for commitment, you can't come anywhere near me. I'm not going to give you my real name. I'm not going to like People go to crazy degrees with this. And the So to a kid, a lot of times it'll it'll represent as a million other ways, but their biggest fear is letting someone down. Their biggest And the the other side, their biggest accomplishment or their biggest comfort is when they realize they that they cannot let that person down. They're always enough. The example I always love to use for this is of a I bought this house in Cleveland and someone before me um you know, decided that they were going to put a pond in the backyard. I say it like that because it's a it's a glorious puddle of a pond that just has mosquitoes in the summer and floods everything in the winter. That's that's what he wanted for me and he So, [laughter] I So, I'm standing next to this pond. It freezes over in the winter and fall and spring because it's freezing in Cleveland. But, it's frozen over in the winter and I'm standing there. I was talking on the phone with someone and my son, who is who is this kid? He's like the defiant one. He's the uh um he was about seven at the time. Eight. And he comes up to the to the pond and he sees that it was frozen. It was like our first year there and he looks at me and looks at the pond. He's like, "You see this?" He's like, "It's a froze." I'm like, "Yeah, it's really cool." He's like, "Do you think I can step on it?" I'm like, "It's like a foot deep." I'm like, "Ask yourself that. Like, what's going to happen if it cracks and you go through?" And so, like he's but he's too afraid. So, he touches it with his foot. Touches it harder with his foot. And then he like he Every time he's looking at me, he's like, "Whoa." And he goes running and he grabs a rock and he throws a rock on it. Gets a bigger rock. Throws a bigger rock. Hits it with a stick. Finally, he jumps and smashes down on it. Nothing is holding him and he's like he's blown away that this thing can hold him when when a few months ago it was just water. He goes running at the house and gets the rest of the kids to tell them and I'm like, "This is the perfect example of this kid." But, really of all kids. He comes and he's throwing stones and he's throwing rocks and we can get all offended and all hurt by what this kid's doing. But, there's a purpose to what he's doing. He wants to know, "Can this thing hold me up? Is it strong enough to to hold me? Or is it going to break?" So, our kids are going to show up with all this defiance and all these sticks and stones and all of these things. But, they're it's not because they hate us. It's not because they're angry at us. It's not because they're angry at anyone. They want to know, "Are you able to hold me up? >> So what can else talk about parents and let's talk practically cuz we only have a few minutes. So the parent of that child is their job to say keep throwing rocks. I can take it and I'm still going to be there. I'm going to hold you up. Do you take a kid who's throwing rocks at a parent and say you need to be in your room or I have to take away your whatever it is that you cherish because you can't throw rocks at a parent or do you say Ketsela, come here. I know these aren't really rocks. You're not really throwing them. This isn't You're not trying to hurt me. It's cuz you want to know whether and I am here and I'm strong enough and I love you and I what can I buy you and get you and make you feel loved and comforted. >> So that way he'll definitely got to throw more rocks. Because he's like, "Oh, you think you got me figured out. I'm going to go I'm going to double down." >> So what's the task list for the parent whose kid when you wake him in the morning you get out of that throwing rock night is a looks upset but you're saying interpret it not they're not throwing rocks. They're just trying to find their way in the world and who can they rely on? Who's the safe space? Where can they So what's what how does the parent react? >> So >> Rochel Bitzkal Tana, what does the parent do? >> Are you okay? Are you all right? That's the first thing a parent should always ask the kid when something went wrong. Even if it went wrong in school. Kid comes home, my my teacher da da da da are you all right? Are you okay? Is everything all right? Like you I I I understand that like you're upset right now. Are you okay? Cuz like this is and and take it very seriously. It's not you know letting it what This is his communication. And if you want that communication to stop and have better communication, show him he doesn't need it. Are you okay? Is everything all right? Once that's out of the way, once are you all right is out of the way the kid can communicate now and and if that's not working, right? We're past that and and the kid's still throwing cuz you don't have any fear of to get beaten up by anyone or have the other kids definitely not get beaten up by anyone. But that doesn't mean that you need to defiantly go against this right now. What most parents do is is that everything happens in a moment. So he's being mean right now or he's being what do you call right now? Instead of taking the other kid, taking yourself and removing yourself from the situation, just letting him blow off his steam. And even if they are able to do that, they'll never go back for the conversation. Now he's calmed down. They're like, "Okay, everything's fine now. Let's let's just leave it. Like, don't bring that up again cuz he might lose it again. He might lose it again." But you have to bring it up again. You have to show him that like you see that he's in pain. Not by using our words, by showing back up. By being there. Now, if the first time in the beginning of especially if someone has little kids that they're acting out, someone's responding to them, "Are you okay? Is everything all right?" You don't normally to say, "Are you okay?" It it it doesn't usually go past that when they're older. It's usually, you know, all uh all emotional dis- all emotional instability stems from the denial of true pain. I believe uh Adler said that. It comes it from the denial of true pain, right? This kid was in pain at some point and it just built up to this place. We have to reverse engineer that to get back to that place of pain so that we can talk to them. So, the question for me always is, "Are you okay?" Then, we also have to build a relationship. It might be longer than what we have time for. We also have to build a relationship, which means most people only have conversations with their kids when something is right or wrong. But there's no middle ground. So, this kid thinks that it's a our relationship is transactional. Transactional. And they so if if uh if someone's father-in-law calls them up and says to them, "Hey, you know, I think we should let's go get a coffee together." You're like, "Oh, no. >> [laughter] >> What's this going to be about?" >> What is this? Just tell me now. Just it's fine. Just get it out of the way now. And he's like, "No, no, no, no. Let's talk. Let's talk." And you go out with him and you're like sitting the entire time. You're like, "What's going on? You know, you you know, is everything all right?" And and you know, he might say he just he tells you about what's going on with him. Tells you about this and that. He says, he's like, "All right, son. I just I needed someone to talk to. I'm just happy you were there for me. Thank you." And then he leaves. You see him and like, he just became my favorite person ever. You go [clears throat] back to your wife and be like, I She's like, "Is everything okay? Did he try hurting you?" Like, "No, no. He He's amazing. We had a great time. We had a" Right? Because because he wanted to be sitting there with you as opposed to that notion you had about him from beforehand. Our kids are no different. They believe that we don't want to be sitting Everything is not valid for us around them. When we show them that like No, this is all I wanted to do was sit here with you. You know, I I always tell parents when when it's really strained, bust them out of school. If for no reason, don't bring up anything. Just sit there talking about complete stupidity. Just anything. And then go back. The The quick example I use for it is if you have you know, a guy and a girl go out on to a date. Girl calls up the shidduch and afterwards and goes, "I never want to hear from that guy again. If I ever hear from you again, I'm I you're straining orders on both of you." She's like, "What happened?" He's like, "I'll tell you what happened. He wrote me to a restaurant for his on first date, which in our community is not you know, goes to a restaurant on a first date. She's like, my friends were there and the guy gets down on one knee eight minutes into the date and proposes." She's like, "I'm sorry, he did what?" She's like, "I didn't even know his last name. The guy got down on his knee and proposed." So she's like, "Is that his The shidduch and calls up the guy and is like, "What What were you thinking?" He's like, "I don't know what's the problem. We went out. She got a diet Coke. She's healthy. I She laughed at my joke. We're good to go. I got down on What am I going to waste time for? What am I wasting time for, right?" And she's like, "You're crazy." Right? What was wrong about what he did? It's inappropriate. It's not the right time. So if he says to the shidduch and he's like, "So what am I supposed to do on a first date?" He's like, "Nothing. You don't do anything. You do stupidity You don't need to talk about He's like, "Should I ask her if like she's sure she can have kids?" LIKE, "NO. WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU? You do nothing. You talk about nothing serious. No Why? Because a relationship needs to build. Proximity does not create close connection. Just the The that we live in the same house doesn't mean a thing. It just means that we've gotten used to lying to each other and hiding things and a lot of times in order for it to be better than that, we need to devote that amount of time in order to become something in order for that relationship to grow. So if that's happening, it's usually not just a defiant kid or a parent that's not good at what they do. Usually the two love each other and it's very very difficult on both of them. Spend that time to be able to rewind everything so that you can so that when you ask the question, are you okay? It actually gets a response. >> This is like a little appetizer. >> Yeah, this is the beginning. >> The beginning of the conversation cuz I got a lot of feedback. >> You'll come you'll come you'll come back to Boca. We'll continue the conversation. It's a little appetizer. >> I love that stuff. I could live in Boca so >> Maybe we'll go to Cleveland. Okay, good. We appreciate yeah, the winter Cleveland people usually come in the winter. >> Yeah, I come in the winter. Not in the summer. Yeah, I miss this winter. Yeah, usually I hang out here during the winter for a little bit. >> Well, what what got you back? We thank you for your time and all that you do and that was a lot of food for thought. >> I have >> And we look forward to unpacking that and uh taking that further but thank you so much. >> span so >> [laughter] >> Thank you so much. Thank you for being with us. >> Thank you guys so much. >> Thank you for listening to Behind the Bema. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. We'll see you next week >> [music] >> for another peek behind the Bema.