The Publication and Origins of the Seven Mesechtos | Season 3 Premiere

[Music] welcome back Rabbi Dr elzar Brut we are about to begin season three discussing the farm over Rim Kanki if you liked and enjoyed season one which was very focused on rim Farm many of them you may have been familiar with season 3 is going to be focusing heavily on sarim it's going to bear based and we're going to be focusing onim that you may not have heard of or even if you did likely haven't opened I guess I can speak for myself but I'm assuming many people have not opened many of's so would love to hear about them from Rabbi Dr BR and we again thank our Anonymous sponsor who sponsoring this season his should have an alah so we're going to begin with a couple of episodes on theki wrote Pim on thean RAB br will tell us what they are how the farm were written and he's going to give us a little bit more insight to what he plans on covering in season three Rabbi doctor take it away okay so first and um the first few episodes of the Season mem we hope to talk about as you just said the his per the wrote systematic Parish over a bunch of years which we'll discuss right now and and along the way he also wrote a parish which is included in this on and he threw in it's called Andi so these will be the first few episodes where we will discuss first of all we in the world what are these seven m where they come from how far back and then what was doing in his perim and discuss some various of kki in and from serious examples um also we'll be using a brand new safer of that was just published from manuscript called which is stuff that he heard from the also play out with these with some aspects in mza andus those are there some of the episodes that we'll discuss in addition we discussing some of his farm some less known his shes his famouser the time of and some others so that is what weem hope to be doing um amongst some of the discussions in the coming episodes okay so now today um starting like this in 1962 and finishing in 1998 authored a few works that he's that he's famous for you know the people know oh yeah if you say this they heard yeah there's something called what is it I don't know kki wrote about it okay now when does he begin working on this project so in 1962 he he completes in and then in of the same year he completes now it's interesting is because people I always grew up here ing kki would would only on a leap year would he write a safer um because he was finished his so to speak but here we see in one year he's popping out to far anyway included in this work Onin which we also discuss is a of his that he wrote about what about Lefty and all different aspects of this and callula he has a contr which he wrote for his father okay now then then he goes on the next year which again is in contradiction to the that they say over and he puts out a work on H on and then he decides he's going to include he feels there's not enough work done on so he puts out a mishna breu style work on hus Maza he throws in as a bonus hus m one Simmon so he puts in a similar thing because of this he became becomes famous for being an expert in mza because already in the 60s he's he wrote about very and he gets thousands of questions over the years and eventually they put out one of the first volumes he put out is on so we'll be discussing some of his continuing two years later he do he puts out a whole thorough work and then in the same year he puts outus okay then he takes a then he stops and it's not even clear if he was ever going to finish um and then I guess he had time after he finishes his and he decides you know what he's going to finish the rest of the seven M as they're known and he publishes on in 1998 and once again he puts in a small M typ at the end of the of the based on okay all these far are written as a with a of very very intense parish and a small Parish on the side and he also includes where all the Su are mentioned in ch okay we'll truss and and that is what um he does over these years now what is the reason what's his motive what does he say why he decided to do this and will get to but before anything the question really is what are these M what are these how far back do they go when were they first published was it now so what happens is like this many people know you open up your standard in the back after AV you'll find in m and then all of a sudden you see there something called and after is um you'll see other small little one is which is very important and then and then all of a sudden you see and if you turn too fast you might miss it but there's a few pages about four or five pages where it has on it GM and then after GM it goes to um Kim a so the question is if was this always in the standard garar back from the printing from when sh started to be published or not anyway it turns out that as we're going to see today these M were pretty much lost for centuries and only over recent in recent relatively in the past few hundred years when they first published what happens is like this in 1714 and through 1717 a publication of AAS began in Amsterdam in the introduction in the intro of one of the first volumes they said one of the things they're going to have is the which was which um and they and they have new stuff better um and better addition of it and then they have that was never published before and then they're gonna say we also have something called no one knows what it is and we have it now what's going on over here is in general a is a very expensive Endeavor so what they would do is they would it was like an advertisement tool to get people to buy their product they would say oh we're getting all different we're going to be adding in all these types of things and they also went to they sort out new materials so that people would specifically buy their addition at the end of the day in this chass even though they announced that they're going to be publishing was not published not only that we don't even know what in the world is this that they're referring to it's been a mystery out of but they were going to publish we don't even know where were they going to get it from where did they have this as we're going to see now a few years later another in the 1720s also um began to be published and they also announced we're going to publish it with and everything and they also don't and mean say they sort of announce that they're going to publish and it's not found there and it's it's a mystery what were they even referring to where did they even know about a where did they have a now what's and what's interesting is like this is that at that time in the in the introductions they got materials from the incredible Library which we've mentioned a few different times from upim manuscripts and they included in their Works um but the question is is not as far as I'm able to tell in the various catalogues of his Library he did not have a m a manuscript so where were they even going to get M you say there was no printed edition of at this time so where were they going even get it from okay heler in his excellent works on the printing of the talmud he has a use a useful discussion on these two publications of the sh but he doesn't deal with this specific issue of of um what was going on and why in the end did they advertise something and then they didn't follow through in his amazing work so he throws out there a possibility um he doesn't say that this is theat because he doesn't document it he says maybe the the the that were involved with the publishing they used to have to get scas and everything so they didn't want to put it in because they didn't know where in the world is this m g that you guys you Publishers are coming up with where is it from maybe it's not even authentic but he doesn't cite any proofs for such a claim okay fast forward a few years later um but um we're going to find out a little bit more about this but before we go on at this point the only that's being discussed of the as we're going to learn about is there's no other such mza that we is writing a par okay okay a few years later 1754 a person we very I'm very fond of talking about the in his famous travels so he marks down incredible event that happens to him he sees on the 20 23rd of Sian he describes as follows he gets to some house and he says the name of the person and he sees a it has everything and it says it's written um from a relative of says a date now we're not gonna get into now but was already published which was also published but then he says and then he said and then he said he talks about that he looked at etc etc so he's saying I saw the manuscript he's identifying this manuscript and I saw and I um this is happening when in 1754 but again there's no mention that in this manuscript that of any other of the seven goes ahead and writes aish on fast forward to 1782 many years later publishes in the back he publishes for the first time okay great 1790 comes along a work is published on on various called and in there he has a and stuff like that and he publishes the first time ever why does he publish it so he writes interestingly in the introduction that there's an Auda that every person was given at SII specific areas of Ty to be to be mades so he felt it seems that this was his area that he should bees to to work on and he writes a pish on and also so the first time is even any perish 1790 the first time it's being published is 1782 beforehand no there's no um publication of it going a little further 1802 publishes in the back of his where he has an important introduction about MIM he publishes at the end so again one of the seven is published for the second time in 1882 he says he got it from okay now this is this point is not even mentioned by others to realize that it was published a second time at this point okay 19 in 1804 his medag was plagiarized mean to say was stolen without giving him credit and all the introduction the notes is a whole own interesting story but they cut out for whatever reasons okay moving on in 1805 the publishes again so what what's the significance of this is that when he publishes it he he basically it's an work called of of his called marison and he it seems he got more which is includ over here he says a better more complete and he now has something called so now we're up to three of the that he's publishing for the first time does anyone use so we mentioned already that there he quotes a few times for different aspects in come fast forward a few more years 1816 he publishes the first serious work on and but the whole point is at this time again we at the years 1816 there's no mention of any other masas that exist okay A little another unknown work is in 1821 a small workers comes out on M inside this work there's a few pages on the it's called it has a beautiful from who knew the author very well it was interesting wants to read up about him um we could find about him in the published volume IR from in recent years from manuscript ofin okay but the point is up till now we only have three we are the other said again seven so we um in many many episodes by now people know that I'm what could guess what's next word I'm G to say we open up the he deals with this issue in a few different places he and remember he's the person who publishes so one place he says um that that he saw he describes I saw it okay fine now the question is but did anyone have it what is it that he saw so he says like this that the MD brings down in ra when he's talking at the ramban a few times he he talks he brings quotes from G okay then he says he brings down a piece from the newly published at the time the wrote this from the mar Mish who's talking about the and he says um if the would have realized that there is whatever he says he wouldn't have said okay fine then says that a few years later this comes F but so far we're stuck with a different piece says that the in the which I've said numerous times that the the which is mostly published after the dies but he saw in he brings down a of TI which is and he says that this is what the says this is one of theas so now we are now finally being introduced to a fourth of the seven similarly the ran and P Adam also brings down Thea of titis okay so now we're changing up the story a little and we're learning that there is moreas to the seven masas and we're even getting a name we got fine okay talks about a little more he mentions um the point that I made from the sh that they advertised and they didn't publish it okay okay fine and they promised that he say another also the ones that I pointed out fine very good but now what are the seven M that's unclear so so over here he says he speculates that those are part of the and then he says even that they said in the that they have is part of the seven problem is we don't know what that is and now seeing that you're changing it around because you found the r in that says there was something called okay then makes life even more complicated he finds that there's something called a anyway make long story short addresses it yet again and he says what's the final version for him the seven so he says it's okay then he handles it yet another place so the point is it's very unclear according to the what are the seven we don't even know F we move on basically the point over here is that the person who was even interested in this topic and he's ultimately involved with the publishing of some of them is the this does not come to us as a surprise as we know about him from season two a bit and one day we talk about much more but the point is he was obsessed for and him and during his travels where he was fundraising he made it his business to seek out all the materials which he could in all the various libraries public and priv private incredible story for a different time now but it's not only that is the person interested in this it turns out there's another at the same time a little younger than him who's also into this type of stuff to put it mildly and that is who the son of the gr so we have a work that was only published long time after he dies called R this is an incredible work and just understand a little bit what this work is gives in he says that the point was he was trying to track down all the but where are they they're quoted in all the different mean to say let's say what we're talking about the raan says but we don't have it but the ra saw it and he brings a piece so the the systematically went through dozens and dozens of of to collect them all and he has it in a beautiful work called ra and he talks all about them so this is the nature of the work and this was one of the things a quest of his for lost kazal I would say now so in this ra and which is that's what the one of the goals is he brings about all different and where they are he has discussing our of the also handling what are they and he brings down the same ramban um that the talks about and he says at in his point in time there was three M published what are they number one then he says what's the next run that published that the M talks about fine then he says um it's similar to the he throws out a sentence which we'll see soon enough that there's more to it but there's some type of connection similar to the ran okay that's his opinion and he brings down ran Trum fine so and he says that there's basically another M known as but they didn't see it he also talks about that m he talks etc etc then the interesting idea that he says at the end I spoke to my father the V and he tells me that there were seven M but um there's also and he says there was also something called which we devoted a whole episode once about now how in the world did the girl know this that says he doesn't know where his father even got this from okay interesting M from a great nephew of the gr that says there was even a called again on various m in mid and but we have no idea where the gr even knew this um speculation would link to his travels and maybe he saw it in some manuscript etc etc okay anyway so but at this point in time we're now showing that it's not only the it's also the v Son these are two people that are concerned about lost kazal and they and they both republish it as I said he republishes in 1802 the from fine but again we are the rest of the M fast forward to 1851 in Frankfurt publishes from manuscript The Other M he includes in this work of The Other M that he publishes valuable notes showing just like the MD says that the for the r is certain times from so he shows that the in the other masas that he's publishing of theas that they are could be the M for the r what are theas all of a sudden we now know say forra m tius so tius we already were we got the insight about but now we're finding out that besides for the original Three that we knew about already from the which was and were now officially it's official and we have the text this is in 1851 F when he publishes it in 1851 he gives it to two tremendous in his time who recently knew has been incredible write up about him who he was and some manuscripts of his Ander also I believe it's of Frankfurt anyway they also wrote a bunch of ARS in it and it's available on Hebrew books so this is the first time in 1851 that allas now know what they are and we have the actual text F fast forward 1883 V Shas is being published and like I mentioned earlier every Shas wants to incorporate the latest new materials so what do they do they hunt out different materials from all over they're publishing and they write about it in the back called so one of the things they include is so this is the first time when you buy a chass that actually you will be able to have the they use this addition and they don't say much about it they just say they got it from there and they have the beer of on and that's it fine so now the story is till 1883 what happens in going a little further a year in 1888 publishes a parish on a and Kim why that's a good question says people ask them what are you writing about and it's not today so he says L um it's it's a you know it's a real thing it's so that's already enough and he the famous all these things so just like it's not doesn't have a there's still an and that's why he's one of the reasons why he's doing it um he says oh you might ask me maybe I should pick something that's more okay fine and he deals with it in his introduction this is a called y published in 1888 F in 1930 a yid known as heager for all practical purposes we're going to call him heager because that's how he's referred but his name was mik higer mik heager publishes for the first time based on manuscripts after after the addition of Kim he has some more manuscripts earlier manuscripts of thean and it's available I believe on Hebrew books f one minute now so what happens is like this um who which we said is one of the earlier peran that's published so a few years back decides they have a brilliant idea to publish it when they um no no one really published other than so they publish a fancy along with their entry about Kim including har and they track down all the materials about and including this Etc and then interesting they even have like AA of in chis where is all says oh just now one just came out and you see that it starts to be used but it's not really quoted okay the s toldi that he saw by showed him or told him that he has some massive on but sadly we know it's a mystery what happened with the of they hit it but they have not been able to find it after the Holocaust okay anyway no one wrote about until the 1960s wheni decides he's going to do it now what he says and what he does in the methods and the safer and interesting points I'm going to deal with soon but it's interesting is it's already out there as I said from 1880s you would think a you like the mishura who was using and all looking for different things and even where it's relative they don't mention it okay say I don't know I don't have a clear answer but anyway there's one last question that needs to be addressed about this and that is what is the origin of these Works we're saying yeah had it okay so first of all which had it so here you open up thiser and you'll see right way he shows you a list so we already mentioned the ran the the Trum he adds to the mix rashak he has other quotes of different other um manuscripts material of people that had it the had it it seems the as early as the had it um the MD we said had it already and um and that's his list including he seems to say that the had it adds to the mix whenever he talks about this had it so there are had it and each one of theas has a whole long list people had had it fine so they had it but how far back does it go before that L and this is the question that I already mentioned times does the Raam have it it's unclear L he's saying that the ram had it he's going based on the MD and he shows in his work that the ram had it fine but is it true that is it so that the ra and what and this will get to to bring out how early this work is and the as follows there is a um famous rambam the rambam in which inish talks about why did rebi not make a why don't we find that there's a special in that's going back very early for you need to know everything else under the is says the r famous statement everyone knew this every you it wasn't a question what are you D everyone know of daving so there was no reason to have a special of for these areas everything else everyone didn't know but according to the it was necessary to it wasn't necessary for Reb to include and make them special even though there are some because everyone knew okay this is a famous RA in his work on he asks he says he doesn't understand everyone knows they're very complex there's many details and it's possible they're even more complex in which we do have to illustrate the point I also I always like to bring out son writes that his father spent months working on for the work everyone knows the is unbel I mean today all aspects of safos is it's a whole par people could spend years on it the amount of all different things in every aspect not only as we're going to see in the future episode some of the very Shas but there's much Morez as far um say the way to write it and then all other aspects okay so he says he thinks says that there was some type of work devoted was lost and this he says was the form was what ends up being to say these are later versions of the of of a lost work okay so now could be that the rambam when the rambam is talking about he's saying that that period of time as early back as Rabbi they Tak knew it but if you're going to go later on in the time of K the gar and and even later then people start forgetting it and that and that's why these such as which deals a lot about and the and they are later works okay this this is one possibility fine it it seems that um L very interesting y Kar so in in a work of his he talks about The Rance of and he says very simple he brings down this RAM and he says this was the job of the Rance of say it's after the the the the talmud and he says that one of the jobs were they Tak started forgetting all the aspects and that's what all these that we have these are all things that at one point everyone knew and the r and then once R sa saw that they don't know them so then they went ahead and they transcribed it okay um just two more ideas about this two three more ideas and that's it number one is the in his incredible when he's he shows where it says over there so over there he brings down in this he says it's referring to and he brings from his father Etc and then he brings down that he wrote and and and what is it say that basically the the we know has six but it seems in in various much much more what happened to it so that's what he says there were much more and that's could be we all these coming from and then at the end and he says so again what I suspect is this that in the times of M that's what the r is talking about as time went on or then it started to be so so if we're trying to date the work it's Halas that are realas early on but it was only put down or so to speak if it was put down on paper that's its own discussion but at a much later date such as the RAB from the in it would sound like it might be earlier um he talks about this also about these early works but it's it's vague um he calls it um he doesn't when he's talking about specifically it's not clear if he's is going earlier than what I'm claiming right now okay and the lasta is this yid so he throws out there interesting thing I said that some people show um that similar to it's a similar style toi so here he says that intense shows that the is very early it's so he's it sounds like from him it's a very early work so it could be it's an early work and it would go it's not the same as necessarily as the other possibilities I just mentioned anyway to conclude is so these works these now now we've identified where these works are what they are where they came from comes along in the 1960s says first before anything there's a few of these works of kazal however early back you want to go but these are M of kazal there's no Parish on them so he goes and says I'm going to write a parish so we're going to discuss more about but according to what we said in season one already it's very one suggestion of one of theas behind it is very simple why is R kki doing this we said already way back I think even maybe the first episode I said there was four different great influences one of them is this aspect of with the had a tremendous impact on so much so that he now when he does his he adds in it's part of his and he was M every year all the and so he said so the point is he sees a part of that's not being written on he's not no one explained it so he says I have to write a parish and he writes a systematic Parish which we will discuss by he continues this as I said in further episodes we'll deal with something called these are works early works of there was no per decides he has to write a parish okay we continue next time okay thank you very much Rabbi Dr Brut for this first episode in season three like to thank our sponsor again if any questions comments suggestions please reach out to Alazar gmail.com and myself schm ou.org this may be the last time we get to see Rabbi Dr BR with a beard for a while and thank you very much looking forward to next time