The Pain of Being Yourself: Rabbi Taub & Dovid Bashevkin on Authenticity and the Public Self

I am so excited. We're here because a dear friend of mine once again has asked us to participate in the incredible work of Ammudim where they're having kind of a night where we're having all these conversations related to mental health, life, religiosity. And I wanted to kind of use this opportunity as an excuse to force you, to pressure you, to coers you into conversation. We we had one conversation once. >> I came to your house. It >> was about midnight >> where it was about midnight. >> Yeah. We finished past midnight. >> Okay. >> And it wasn't recorded. It wasn't videoed. And it was the first time that we met through our dear music. >> It was recorded an audio. >> Audio just video. This was before >> correct >> video. But it it was an audio. We had an audio. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And our friend Jeff Bloom. We should shout out to Jeff. >> Yes. Huge shout out to Jeff Bloom who who introduced us >> um and connected us. And [snorts] the conversation was and that conversation was about tshoua. But I I wanted to talk about something else cuz I really look towards you as somebody who is doing public work in teaching Torah and bringing Torah to new people. And you look like you are authentically in touch with yourself. And what I'm trying to figure out is why am I still struggling? Why do I still have so many days where I feel performative, inauthentic? >> Um, and you, what's so interesting to me, like I'm staring over here, you have this like YouTube thing. You have a 100,000 >> YouTube subscriptions. You've blown up on >> on Instagram. And what I find very moving honestly and what I'm trying to like learn from you is >> how did >> how did you preserve your humanity after stepping into this like public space of clicks and driving and virality and I know you have because we spoke beforehand and we talked we're in touch constantly. >> Yeah. Not as much as we should be. We should be in touch. We should be friends. And I don't have friends, but I'm I'm saying that if I were to have a friend, I would consider maybe the >> But I I I'm coming to speak out loud. That's really what I want to do. >> I want to talk out loud and I want to >> figure out how what am I doing wrong at this point? [laughter] No, I'm being serious. Like I'm I'm fairly from I'm a I'm a >> I'm a reasonable I do. I messed up. >> I like that you're comfortable with knowing your Milas. That's >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm reasonable. >> I mean, you toned it down a little bit, but [laughter] but yes. And I would say, do you respected thought leader? >> Sure. That's great. >> But but what I'm trying to figure out is I've gotten to the point where a I'm suspicious of anybody who says that I have answers that you don't have. >> Like the knowowers in the world. >> Oh yeah. >> I'm very suspicious of the knowers. >> And what I find remarkable about you is you don't present as knower. Something must have I don't know changed about you. I find you to be both very inviting but also very mysterious cuz I don't really know your past. There's a lot >> I don't believe like to me when I speak to you what I'm trying to understand is what is the suffering that you experienced that allowed you to have the profound insight that you do cuz I don't believe you and I asked you this the last time we were on. I don't believe you that there's no major >> that there isn't a kernel of catalyst suffering in your life. Whatever that was my beginning. What I'm saying >> that's a very like I you just started like you were just talking about um being more authentic and then you can get like a little compliment. Oh, you're so authentic and your your success hasn't changed you and then you're like and what's your deepest pain? Let's go there. [laughter] Let's go straight there. What's cuz you I know you're hiding it. >> No, you you're not hiding it. That's what I find so amazing is that you're able to authentically connect. you're able to authentically um empathize and really people's pain and suffering what they're going through. >> You're you're you're not just mirroring. You you you understand what they're going through. And I just find that you're able to both be so outward focused and uplift and have this core that is not getting swept away in this modern world of virality. I I'm trying to understand what you're doing cuz I don't feel like I feel like I need to learn how to do this. I'm not doing it well. >> Okay. [clears throat] You remember when we uh had that conversation, the the recorded conversation at your house >> in your little side office there in the >> basement? We've expanded. >> Oh, >> it's much nicer. Yeah, you'd like it now >> with the little road cer over there. >> Okay. There was no video >> and we I remember I told you the story about getting the ticket on Roshashana, getting towed on Roshashana. >> We had to cut that story in half. Basically, you told a 45minute story >> about getting towed on Roshashana. Yes. And about the draconian bureaucracy. >> Yes. >> Of getting the ticket uh peeling the ticket and getting my car and and >> what I described as like this Kafka-esque story where you kept on coming >> to like you finally get to the counter where the person who's going to figure out the paperwork that you need and sign it off and you keep on getting shuffled to another counter. That's how I feel in my life right now. Okay. >> Honestly, >> so the reason I brought that up is because I told that whole story and in the end and I wasn't sure you would get it cuz I didn't know you well, but I told the story. It's a real story and it's it's it's a sort of a banal story. I mean, there's no real drama there. That's kind of the point of it. And and I was wondering if you would get it. And when you said, you said that was Kafka-esque. So, right away, I knew a few things about you. First of all, I knew you were illiterate. Okay. Secondly, I knew you got it because you understood that that that was a horror story, but the horror wasn't gore and shock, >> persecution, none of those things. >> The horror was the tedium of it, the heaviness of the just the the system that everyone accepts as normal. and you used the exact right adjective, Kafka-esque. And usually when people use the term Kafka-esque, it's pretentious. But that was one of the rare nonp pretentious uses of the word Kafka-esque >> cuz it came from a place of of of suffering. You know, I I have a friend who told me something who it's made a big impact on me. His name is Ellie Schulman. Quote him a lot. But when I had him on, he said, "The biggest braha is the right amount of suffering. There are people who have too much suffering, but there are a lot of people have too little suffering. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I just like I just look at you and honestly what I see is somebody who seems to have done a good job healing their suffering to the point where they're able to really like be out in the public constantly and not lose themselves. You don't come off as that kind of like prostituteesque influencer, which is always worries me. >> Yeah. >> And I'm not calling, god forbid, any influencers. No, >> but but you don't step into the world that way. >> So, >> what am I missing? I'm I'm here for your guidance. >> Okay. So, [snorts] I'm going to tell you a Kafka quote, >> please. And I love this quote so much that I can even say it in the original German. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> You have my attention. >> I was ashamed. When I recognized, when I realized that life is a masking ball, a masquerade costume party and I with my true face participated >> and he felt shame from that. I was ashamed when I realized that life is a masquerade and I attended with my >> without a costume without a costume. Now, someone in 2025, almost 2026, reading that quote will say what Kafka was describing was neurode divergent masking and they will diagnose him and they'll say his mother took Tylenol and [laughter] >> Okay. I don't think Tylenol existed then. >> Probably not. Correct. I'm going to tell uh Bobby neurode divergent masking a differently wired person a little bit too sensitive for this world a little bit too deep for this world and um having this shame this burning shame when you realize that if you show up to life as yourself there's going to be a severe penalty p to pay you're going to be judged judged. You're going to be ostracized. You're going to lose opportunities. You thought everyone was just being who they are. You find out one day that everyone's lying, everyone's faking. And there's this I mean, he calls it shame. This shame of uh you know, some people call it the vulnerability hangover, but that's from like one night of sharing too much. This is like realizing at some point in your life, I didn't realize that everybody's lying and they expect you to lie and you've overexposed yourself. That experience, there's a reason why I remember the quote and I remember the quote in German is cuz when I saw that, that resonated with me on a deep level. And you want you're asking me about my pain. What's your pain? What's your pain? Right? Everyone wants to know everyone's pain. So I'm telling you without I'm not telling you this cuz I think it makes interesting content. One of my deepest pains, top three or four pains, maybe even could be top one or two, but for sure top three or four pains in my life is the pain of not being able to be my true self. Um, the fear of of being rejected and intermingled with a complex sort of um, oh, I figured out how to play the game. I now I do know how to mask. I can make people like me and then the self-loathing for participating in that. And then even worse, the even deeper feeling of rejection that you can get people to like you for your false self. You understand? Like what's more painful than being hated for who you are is being liked for who you're not. Even more painful, more devastating. So that's that's the answer to your question. So knowing this, why is it that you pursued, you know, you you've had a very interesting career? I'm actually quite fascinated by it. >> Yeah. >> You wrote this best-seller book which had actually had a pretty big impact on myself that was about addiction. Yeah. >> That you deliberately no longer like to talk about. >> Rarely speak about it. Yeah. >> Rarely speak about it. It was about It was called [snorts] >> God of our understanding. God of our understanding, which I love [clears throat] that title, >> a God of our understanding. That's taken from the blue book. >> I mean, it's a play on words from aa lingo. They talk about uh >> yeah, >> God as we understood him and um so yeah, I it's sort of paraphrased it, but yeah, I there was a implication that the >> you could have rode that train into the sunset, the addiction train, that could have been the only thing that you talk about. made hay of that. Yeah. >> And then you kind of like I don't know if how deliberate it was or how deliberate. >> Very deliberate. >> Like pivot away from that into something more like >> what you're doing now, which is maybe more generic. Is that a word that you don't like? Generic. >> It is more generic. >> And it's more to the public, like direct to public. >> The wider >> wider, >> but it's the same exact stuff. >> Why did it but why did you do that? What what is it that you pivoted away from? Why didn't you? It was right in front of you. You could have been the addiction. >> My greatest pain is I could have been the addiction rabbi. Yeah. Yeah. >> It was right there for the taking. >> Yep. >> Like Napoleon said, they said, "How did you come to rule France?" He said, "After the French Revolution, the crown was lying on the floor and no one bothered to pick it up." >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> And you had it there. It was waiting. You were on this like when did you pub? 20 years ago. >> Close to 20 years ago. Yeah. You published a book on addiction 20 years ago before this became before the opioid epidemic. >> It was like buying Apple in ' 83. >> Correct. >> As a rabbi for real, trauma, existence, all this stuff. >> Y >> and you could have rode that into the sunset. >> Why didn't you? >> Because I told you my greatest pain is being misunderstood. And what would have been misunderstood had that been your primary window through which you >> I wrote an entire book the thesis of which and this will save you however much book costs and by the way I don't get the royalties anyway so it's not like at any rate the whole thesis of the book that [clears throat] saves you from buying it is that addiction is not really the problem. addiction is the solution. >> But the problem is the pain of >> existence the pain of existence as a as a separate selfhood as a conscious ego apart from God >> and the only real solution is is spiritual awakening. Um, so I wrote that was the whole thesis of it. And yet like people kept coming to me like wanting me to talk about what I just said is not the real problem. >> And they kept on wanting you to treat their >> Yeah. Like when everyone, oh porm is coming up, can you make a statement about drinking? I'm like, I don't care about drinking. No. No. What? What are you? And they think I'm being And even they they'll think either I'm being facitious or I'm being rude. I'm just blowing them off. I really don't care. Let people drink on B. I really can. you can you can you can you lend your voice away we have petition against the kiddish clubs like I don't care about >> so um >> so you wanted to decouple in order to focus on that spiritual >> my point was the spiritual awakening my point was I was speaking to the recovery world where you don't have to sell them on the fact that life is unbearably painful they already know that they learned that from life >> and then I'm presenting this >> possible solution that spiritual awakening is is the solution >> and it and and and that was all I wanted that was my only message and instead everyone was coming and asking me about something that to me is so secondary so incidental to the whole thing I'm like don't you understand what I'm interested in is that existence is painful inherently so for some people even more so sensitive souls and the god of understanding I called it spiritual canaries >> that was by I coined that phrase spiritual canaries by the way that's another thing about being like the uh being this quirky offbeat type of like authentic guy is that you say weird things that people don't understand >> a lot of them catch on >> but then they catch on and you don't get credit >> I I had that >> ask my kid here is the producer of the show that's my son how many times I've come home and I said somebody ripped off a thing that I said >> I had that with culture >> culture was your thing I know that it was your thing I know that it was your thing >> and there was a conference that everybody came together and you weren't even invited >> wasn't invited didn't contribute and I >> didn't get to sit on a day and drink diet coke >> I got an email afterwards from the person who organized it >> you were mentioned a few times who actually came up with gir culture [laughter] I was like >> I I know that you came up with it I know that you >> I like that spiritual canaries >> spiritual Canaries like the canary in the coal mine that he he he shows the symptoms first. Now they use it in political context. The canary in the coal mine western civilization >> a spiritual canary. >> Spiritual meaning to say embodiment is inherently painful for every soul. >> But most people kind of get used to being in embodiment. No, they they they pain of separation from God doesn't even feel they don't even complain about that. They get used to embodiment. And if they complain about any pain, it's about a lack of material stuff. If they're if they have any problem or any any complaint, it's a lack of material stuff, most people. But then the spiritual canaries are the ones who they never get over the soul's trauma of embodiment. That's why I called the spiritual canaries. So the sensitive souls. So that's that's who my audience always was because that's who I am. That's who that's what I wanted to speak about. And it was misunderstood as me being interested in drugs and alcohol, which I'm not. How? So, I think and I don't think my problem is all that unique because I think that just [snorts] the way if you're plugged into a spiritual community, if you're plugged into you have a synagogue that you go to, you have a basic >> synagogue. >> You I love that. I love shout outs to my book. Thank you for that. >> Tell tell them the book. >> Tell them about the book. >> How can we get your book? >> We >> You've written many books. >> I've written a few books. Thank you. >> Thank you for plugging for push the most. you self-published any because self-publishing you make is the best. >> I know I didn't self-publish any of them. It's it's such a mistake, right? >> It's a big mistake >> because I'm >> with Amazon especially the the best margin goes right into your pocket. >> Right into your pocket. Yeah. Except for the fulfilled by Amazon, but that's it. They take less than a publisher. >> No. Oh, I'm I'm getting >> my royalty [clears throat] check. No, no, I'm not retiring off them. My dream of retiring as a bookw writer has been >> fully dashed and dispelled. One of our favorite books at our house is the uh the uh the the funny one, the top 10 lists. >> Oh, top five. >> Top fives. I'm sorry. David, >> that's a good book. >> Top five. >> That's a good book. I can't I can't get the publisher to give them away, though. They're hard hard to sell books. >> It's a coffee table book. I love it. >> It's a great coffee table book. >> It's a great coffee. It's a conversation starter and you put it out in your house and people know you're hip. [laughter] >> That's what I'm saying. But come back to the spiritual embodiment. Spiritual embodiment because I think it's much more difficult now because it's so much less organic. There was an article that had a big impact on me in the New York Times that was written by a travel journalist. I have to send this to you. It was so profound. It was by a travel journalist who was explaining >> like an Anthony Bourdain type guy >> who covers that kind of stuff type guy. And he was explaining this is somebody who studies awe and wonder. >> And he said the billionaires who are paying money to go into outer space are not going to get the experience of awe and wonder that they hoped for and paid for. Why? Because the experience is too manufactured and expected. And in order to really experience awe and wonder, it needs something that is organic and that is not like it's not obvious that it's going to be like the end of the road, that's when you're going to experience the awe and the wonder. And a part of my frustration is this moment in the Jewish world. If you're tapped in and you have this community and you have all this content and all these rabbis who you could speak to and get inspiration from, >> it's almost like it gets harder to have like a spiritual awakening. Like it's easy I almost envy and I'm going to say something radical. I envy in some ways >> I'll be the judge of that. >> I I envy nonorthodox Jews because >> that's radical. post October 7th, I think that they had a very organic awakening. Yeah. >> About what their Jewish identity is supposed to be. And like it started a frenzy search. Oh no. Like I don't know enough about it. I got to learn more about this and all >> and like I look at that journey and it's so exciting and >> very quietly and obviously you know October 7th changed all of us >> but like quietly deep down inside a I don't really see that within our community and secondly in myself forget the community like me David >> I I'm not I think whatever spiritual awakening was is maybe taking Judaism more seriously, but it didn't give me more serenity. Didn't give me more peace. Maybe briefly it did. I I just need to make a disclaimer. I came to you and I'm having a terrible day. I told you that up close. >> You told me when you got out of the car. So, I just need to be clear that this conversation may be colored by a certain >> just like um Cifian cynicism, which I would define as there's this boulder story of Cisphus trying to pull push this boulder up and when it keeps on dropping >> at some point you just end up saying, "Well, this boulder is dumb, >> right?" >> Or this this is stupid. I don't It's It's [clears throat] my way of coping. And I feel like that's where I am right now. You want to talk about what your boulder is for the world here? >> My boulder. My boulder. Hon the boulder I'm talking about. >> The boulder you're talking about? Yeah. >> Should I just say it out loud? >> You said you're having a bad day. So, what was the boulder that put you in a bad mood? >> Fundraising for 1840. >> Okay. >> I stink at it. I'm not good at it. >> Okay. Um, do you know that when people fundraise for their causes, they borrow your platform? >> That does happen a lot. It's one of my frustrations. Sure. >> You understand? They're coming to you to ask for a platform to fundra for their cause. >> Yeah, >> you've got the platform. >> Correct. >> You've got the platform. >> I don't know. I'm not good at asking people for money. >> For yourself. >> You can do it for others. You give others the platform that they should get the money. >> Yes. >> You're the sino de berserak of fundraising. [laughter] >> Explain explain what you mean by that. Sirino, he knew how, you know, the how to write the poetry that would woo the ladies, but he couldn't get the girl himself. >> That was the tragedy. >> It's a great Seinfeld episode where um Kramer falls in love with a with a uh a book a a a uh a book a book dealer or somebody who works at a bookstore. Kramer was not that literate. So he positions Newman, who's this very lovable character played by Wayne Knight, behind the bookshelf, and Newman's whispering the poetry into Kramer's ear. So Kramer is able to say all the right words. >> Momish the B. >> But it has it has an effect on me that I'm disappointed at how much it >> it knocks me out. I'm disappointed in myself. I should be stronger. I should be more resilient. I should I should have a a deeper sense of what I'm worth and I I feel like it brings out my >> You should. But can I just say as a friend or as a potential friend? >> Sure. >> Don't that's not really you're okay. It's good to take responsibility and to say where can I change myself instead of changing the situation. That's very good and you're right and you should expand your threshold for frustration. It's all true, but I think at the same time there there is, you know, there's an expression I think they say that the bad dancer says the floor is crooked, right? Everyone always externalizes the problem instead of owning up to their >> bad dancer says the floor is crooked. I love that. >> So, but so to a certain extent, yeah, you're right. You need to expand your threshold for for frustration and Okay, no problem. True. But there really is an issue here that is a practical issue objectively is a real issue that needs to be fixed and maybe you need to talk to some friends. I I will volunteer to be one of them. Um to talk about the fact that 1840 is a worthy cause and uh in on Elabadas the greatest type of poverty is lacking knowledge and if people support worthy causes where they feed the hungry who are literally hungry um and you're feeding people who are spiritually and intellectually hungry that's no less of a worthy cause perhaps even in some ways even more of a worthy cause. And especially, you know, we're heading into a I mean, people can call this era in history whatever they want, but the reality is these are the birth pangs of Msiah. We're heading into the redemption, and we're heading into a time where the prophets tell us people are hungry not for bread, but for for knowledge to hear the word of the Lord. >> I see it. I see it deeply. So, I see my own hunger. >> Okay. So, why is that not a worthy cause? >> I >> It is a worthy cause. And the problem is not just that you need to learn how to deal with frustration more. You do. Sure. But there's an objective problem that can easily be fixed with some smart minds to get together and that 1840 should be um I mean not only should it be something that you can support yourself so you can focus on it and not have to run around and do any anything else but to be completely focused on it but to grow it to expand it to expand the reach. Um, and really to I mean a guy like you who's who you have your finger on the pulse and and and you understand things I think in a deeper way. You should have you should have a vision for what at least your niche and how that's developing uh until until the ghoulish layma and you should have that mapped out and how much money it's going to cost and we should have a a budget. Is it weird that when you're speaking I got like a little emotional I I I >> not weird at all because your pain point. >> What is the pain? Is it is it's not about is it about fundrais? >> No, >> I got emotional as you were talking. It was really nice to a It's nice to hear somebody be optimistic and be >> um kind of like praiseworthy. That's really I get a lot of really nice praise and feedback. I don't know what you just said right now was very kind of you. That was really nice >> because I think first of all it was affirmation that you haven't heard. People give you compliments all the time. You're a brilliant guy, creative, funny, you know, people appreciate you. But it's like, yeah, thanks. That and $150 will get me a [laughter] cup of coffee, right? I don't even think you can get a cup of coffee. um so people can praise but you you're trying to create something that people value like vote put up your money like show that you care about this my father Hakam who's your site is uh coming in a in a couple of weeks. So I remember he told me a story about an encyclopedia salesman who came to his house. >> Okay. There used to be encyclopedia salesman. >> There used to be encyclopedias. >> My parents had a world book and a bratannica. >> Yes. But the world book I love. >> You have an encyclopedia of Judeica. >> We of course we had encyclopedia of Judeica, >> right? >> The 76 one. They redid it and they made it worse. The old [laughter] school from the 70s, >> but the world book I I there are pages of the world book that I have memorized. A they used to have a page where they would show how fast every animal goes >> and they'd also I was very into the world book encyclopedia. Very brown. >> So before the internet existed. Okay. >> Guys like you and me. >> Before Enarta >> before Yeah. [laughter] Very good. Encarta. Yeah. People don't know what throwback that was Microsoft's digital encyclopedia pre Wikipedia >> and I use enarta by the way last week was the kinesim >> so I use enarta when people ask me how do they get guys to go to crazy places like Ghana I say you don't you don't you you don't get it like they say oh here's your package here's your you know your compensation package and you know health plan and your 401k and no no these guys have literally no support. They're paying to be able to go, right? How do you get them to go? Okay, so I I say like this in and by the way, I didn't make up this mushel. It's a mush that it's from a book about motivation. I think the name of the book is Drive. >> Okay. >> I never read it. >> Sure. >> I have a secret though. When someone tells me there's a good book, I find the TED talk by the guy who wrote the book. I watch the first five minutes on double speed and in two and a half minutes, I know the thesis of the book. [laughter] >> You know what I do? What? When somebody tells me of a great I mean of a great television show or movie that I know I don't have the the time budget to commit to >> it's like a Harry Potter. I'm like be I don't have that kind of time. >> I I read plot summaries on Wikipedia >> like crazy. I love read and I read YouTube makes um shortened movie recaps. >> How short? >> Eight minutes. >> Eight minutes and you get a feature film. >> The whole thing. >> Wow. It's a bargain. >> Yeah. It's one of the ways I veg out. It's my number one. Sometimes I need to like veg out to not feel to almost like let go of the consciousness steering wheel and just veg out and just let my mind like it's >> how you self soo >> self soo my self soo my addiction that helps me escape >> the pain of reality is watching YouTube movie. >> I'm not going to forget where I'm going to take us back to where we the the fork in the road. But before we No, I'm going to >> Before we come back, >> before we come back, >> what 8-minute YouTube summary did you watch that you believe that you feel like you had a full experience as if you saw a whole movie [snorts] like you don't feel like you're missing anything. Like maybe someone will say, "No, you have to see it. It's 2 and 1/2 hours. You don't even know. There's a whole subplot that you didn't even see." And you're like, "No, trust me. This 8 minutes rocked my world. I It was incredibly meaningful to me. It took 8 minutes. I don't even want to see the feature. >> Um, right now there's a horror renaissance right now, which is very interesting >> that a It's interesting to me that horror movies have captured the public's attention. >> Yeah. >> And there's a horror movie and a lot of these horror movies are made by comedians that crossover. Like Jordan Peele went into he was doing comedy skits. Um, >> Jordan Jordan and what was it called? >> Yeah, Kian Peele. Very good. Keian Peele. And he went into horror movies and I love his horror movies. I think they're very profound. The movie that I saw that is an 8-minute movie, a recap where I was like, "Wow." >> Yeah. >> Weapons. >> That's one of his. >> No, but it's a horror movie. It's a horror movie. It's a horror movie about an unexpl. >> Okay. >> And that's the that's the mystery. That's the premise. Watching 8 minutes. And I was like I was I was blown away by the the way they structured it and I got all of it in that 8 minutes. The whole thing. >> It was intense. >> Very intense. Yeah. Yes. >> Okay. And we're not recommending this. >> No. No. No. >> Bitles man. >> Of course. >> Completely. >> Total Bitlesman. Do not veg out. Do not watch six YouTube movie recaps in order to fall asleep uh on a week night. >> So >> So once again, we're just being clear. We're not recommending. It's >> the opposite of recommending. We're telling you not to do it. >> Yeah. Not to do it. Correct. >> Okay. So the place where we So and Carter Oh, hold on. There's two browser tabs open here. So when I explain to people how they get people to go on slickers to crazy places, I say like this and Carter was Bill Gates had an idea of an online encyclopedia. He put tons of money into it. He hired the biggest experts to write the articles, the the the biggest developers to create the platform and it totally tanked. Long comes Wikipedia was all free. Everyone did it for free. It's all voluntary and it became like the number one website. So I explain like this and I got this from drive which is where I said that I watched the TED talk and then you have the secret you watch. Okay fine. >> All right. So he says that Enardo with all of their money and all of their funding and hiring experts but no one was miserish for this. He doesn't use that term but like it's a job. It's a you know it's a living but Wikipedia someone's doing it out of the love of their heart. It's it's personal right. So the thing that was was funded fell apart. The thing that had zero budget flourished. So I say, you know, if you would try to put out an ad and say we're hiring a young man for $150,000 a year salary plus benefits, you would not get people to go to Ghana. But if you say no, you get nothing. You got to got to go fundra for yourself. Then you got guys lining up. Okay. But at any rate, encyclopedia sales. So that's okay. So the encyclopedia salesman comes to my father and he says um listen you may or may not need an encyclopedia. That's that's not really the point here. He says this is democracy and you vote. Okay? You vote for a candidate you believe in. That's that's what you do. You vote. Well, here's the thing. When you buy from me in encyclopedia, that's how you vote for me. You're voting for me. You're saying you believe in me. So, it doesn't matter if you need the encyclopedia. By buying the encyclopedia, it's a vote for me. I can't remember if he bought it or not, but I remember my father telling me like decades later how compelling that was cuz there's something true about it. It's like, do you believe in me? And now that that's a little manipulative and weird cuz it's a stranger. I never met you before. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very. But it's like, you know, they say if someone's a real friend and you have a business, they shouldn't ask you to give them a discount when they buy from you. But if someone's a real friend, they should pay full price when they patronize your business because that shows that you believe in that person's business, right? Okay. So similarly you asking why it was so poignant for you to hear the validation that I gave you even though you get tons of validation bar um because specifically the validation of saying that what you're doing has tangible value to quote Eric Adams who was in that chair 6 months ago before we knew he was dropping out of the race he was sitting in that very chair he was here and sold words I remember >> yeah you remember that and he didn't say it here but he was famous for saying it and it's a movie quote which you probably know but he was famous for saying show me the money. >> Show me the money. >> Show me the money. The great uh Yeah. >> Jerry Magcguire. Sure. >> Right. That's the origins of it. But show me the money means talkless. Let's be real. Talk is cheap. >> But I I want to I want to move away. So when someone says to you what you're doing >> is worth money, >> that validation hits deeper. If someone says, "Oh, that was inspiring." Yeah. How inspiring? How inspiring? Right? Sounds cynical, but listen, we're talking about embodiment. We are in a physical world and there are certain realities of the physical world. And you know, it's like the Maglim. They wanted to on a conceptual level. That's why they were happy to stay in the midbar. Stay in yeshiva and just learn all day. Don't enter. Don't become farmers. Don't deal with agriculture and city building and infrastructure and roads. No, no, all abstraction. No, nothing concrete. All soul, no body. Okay. But as you being a real No, it's about dwelling place in the lower realms. It's got to be tangible. That's show me the money. But I wonder for myself and I do find that I wonder for myself what is the how does one figure out where to invest in spiritually meaning people come to you and you decoupled where we started with you decoupled kind of addiction from the actual spiritual awakening so that existence is not as painful. >> Yes. What I'm trying to figure out is why in my I have most days are good days genuinely. And I happened to work out that I'm here on one of my bad days. Few things didn't go right. Had a couple meetings that didn't go great. And I came here feeling dejected, exhausted, and frustrated, which I was very straight up with you about, and I appreciate you bearing with me as I share it. But when I'm in this place, I wonder to myself, what is the spirituality I need that these moments do not feel quite as I'm using the word like frightening? Like there are times where like I feel like >> usually like right before I'm going to sleep, that's where it gets you. Like >> I feel like I'm falling through the floors of my own self until like you're literally just like on the bottom of this skyscraper. >> Yes. And you're just like, "How'd I get here? What am I trying to do?" And you're you I can feel this spiritually bere. And I I don't always know where to turn. >> Okay. I'm going to deny you a little bit. >> Please. >> Okay. And I told you this before, I'm going to say it again. >> You're right. To some extent. You do need to learn how to man up and deal with distress. You're right. And maybe that means looking for I mean of course it means looking for some type of a spiritual way of reframing it and sort of giving yourself more uh resilience maybe call it. Okay, you're right. That's true. But I I'm I'm not letting up on this. I mean look people people one of the weird things about me is people seem to think that I have insights about people. I don't think I do. But people say that I do. People say that I've been helpful to them, which by the way, that's a whole other thing like avoiding the whole addiction world. Avoiding the label of being a therapist. That's like, please, I'm not a therapist. Like, okay. But >> is that deliberate that you didn't >> So deliberate. I'm not I'm not a therapist. Get out of here. I'm not a therapist. Well, it was certainly you you you trained, you stud No, my father, who I mentioned, was was a psychologist. So, I grew up with the books. I read a lot of >> psychology books. There were certain books that I really really connected with on a deeper level. >> But what were you trying to avoid by not going on that path also >> cuz that's not what I'm interested in. I don't care. But people will ask me about modalities of therapy and they'll say is this new thing. Is it kosher? And I'm like I don't know what it is. And they again they think I'm like being passive aggressive. No, I really don't know what it is. I never heard of it. You'd have never heard of it. All the rabbis heard of it cuz they cuz they follow that stuff. I'm not interested. I don't follow it. I don't know these new therapies. I never heard of it. But at any rate, people say that I'm pretty good at figuring people out. You're you're I'm not negating the fact that you're trying to own up to this and say that there is some growing that you need to do. That's true. That's always true. >> Sure. But I think that you're sort of bypassing the fact that you really do want and deserve and need not for you even more like can I use the word schlick as part of your in this world to receive that validation not just because you need the pat on the back that's nice to that's a side benefit but there's a real thing that your soul came to a body for and it's not just to be the ideas guy cuz you could have been in Ghanaen and you could have hung out in mifa did IA and done the same thing. If you're an ideas guy, you could have stayed in Ghana and been ideas guy and you you wouldn't even need Twitter because you just I don't know how they communicate up there. But that's a world of ideas. You came to the physical world. There has to be some marriage between the spiritual and the physical. There needs to be something physical. There's something built. There needs to be something that I can see. 1840 has to be something tangible, not just ideas. You're you're a guy who lives in a world of idea. I'm also a guy who lives in the world of ideas and I have the Moragum syndrome very much so. Um, >> it's just >> that's why I built this house. By the way, the studio that we're in is the basement. >> It's crazy what you built here. >> Okay. Why did I do it? Because when I started to have millions of people a month online, I said, "Oh, good. I never have to leave my house again." I really said cuz I used to travel to speak. CO knocked that all out. People don't do in person events anymore after CO. I used to travel to speak all over the world. Every Australia, South Africa, every it was crazy. Constant travel. You can ask my son how much I used to travel when he was a kid. Okay. And then I was reaching millions of people a month online. I was like, I don't have to travel ever again. Beautiful. I don't have to deal with people ever again. I never have to sit in the same room with other human beings. I can just put it all out into the ether and it'll And I realized how dangerous that is. My soul didn't come to the world to be divorced from physicality. So I made a house and at this house we've had thousands of people come here. We have events here. We have Fabangans. We have this podcast. It's I want to just tell you one thing real quick. A friend of mine told me and it changed my life. I think about it all the time because it's one of my main struggles. You can fake caring, but you can't fake showing up. >> You can fake caring, but you can't fake showing up. >> Right. Cuz either you did or you didn't. >> Either you did or didn't. Correct. >> Caring. You could you could trick someone to think you care more than you do. Or you can maybe you don't care at all and you make them think that you care. >> But showing up, you can't trick someone to think you showed up. >> Either you did or you didn't. That to me is the difference between the abstract and the concrete. The world of ideas, you will always question how much value it had. But something that's concrete is undeniable. And I and I want that for you. And the world needs that for you. And Msiah has to be here in this world. So it's all part of gula is something tangible and physical. Some it moved me when there's a custom you what's amazing about this house is that it's very close to the to the oh and we are our timing was off so you had like 40 minutes. um this is going to be broadcast later so I feel more comfortable sharing it now um cuz it's doesn't have that immediacy if you have you understand what I'm saying >> yeah a little bit removed >> um but when I there's a custom that when you go to the rebas oh which I had only been at one time previously but with you know uh not a delegation but with somebody else with >> handlers [clears throat] >> with yeah with somebody who I love but but [laughter] >> right >> I wasn't on my own and somebody you know telling me what what we do next what you do next. And this is the first time that I was really there on my own. And I felt like I I desperately needed it. Like as I I was like I I've never felt p I' I've been to all twice in my life. >> Okay. >> Once was a year and a half and um and I loved it. I love that I was on my own. >> There's a mikvah and then you come in and then you usually write a note >> um for um for the Reba, >> which is not something I'm used to or comfortable. Like that's not my default like writing. Like I'm just not good. But I but I did it cuz I cuz I had to do it cuz I wanted to do it. No, honestly it it didn't require any force. I wasn't >> I wasn't looking around. I wasn't with anybody. It was a very it was beautiful cuz it was just me and it felt very like sincere and real and I don't want to share what I wrote but one of I one sentence that was there um and it was such a real sentiment is kind of what you said now was this desire I want to be a schlak I want to feel like I am and I feel like I am but that sense of feeling missionoriented and missiondriven and I guess in my darker moments and I feel like a lot of people deal with this but I deal with it. It comes in very strong where you feel um you don't feel aligned. You don't feel missionless. You don't feel like you remember who the Mishak was. You don't you like you're on the way but like you forgot like wait what do I even have an envelope on me? I don't think I was given an envelope. I don't even know what like I don't even know what the is you know and and that sometimes is hard because I'm trying to work I feel it in my bones. I'm on aus. >> Yes. >> But I don't know what it is. And then somebody you meet with somebody, they're like, "Oh, you need you you run a podcast." And you're like, >> like I want like I want to >> So when people say to you, >> I want to I want to run a podcast. I want to >> That's like when they say to me, "Oh, you're a therapist." Well, cuz No, that's even worse cuz I'm not a therapist. You're You do run a podcast, correct? But when they say to you, "Oh, you're a you're you're you run a podcast." That's like when they say to me, "Oh, you wrote a book about addiction." And it's like, "Yeah, I did, but that's not who I am. That's not what I want you to know." >> Correct. >> Okay. And and also, by the way, and I know this about you, I only met you one time before in real life, >> just like you twice. We only sat together in the same place. Okay. And I remember it's funny. I maybe I bring this out of you or maybe you're fetching all the time, but you told me you bring something out of me. You do. >> Okay. You told me last time. >> I know you do. >> I know [laughter] the one of the things that also that you hate when people say, "Oh, you're the Twitter guy." >> To Exactly. >> Twitter guy. >> Yes. Come over and tell us some jokes. >> Yeah, the Twitter guy. >> We're having a kiddish club in the lobby. Come over and tell us some more. >> I find more diminish. I find it suffocating genuinely. >> Yeah. So, oh, you have a podcast. Oh, you're the Twitter guy. Twitter guy. >> Twitter guy. I get involved. Twitter rabbi. Twitter. Twitter rabbit doesn't make it any better. >> Yeah. >> Right. Right. >> Doesn't help. I think it makes it worse, honestly. >> Why is it so dehumanizing and demeaning? >> No, I'm asking. >> Oh. I if >> and you realize that people are watching right now and judging both of us and saying these guys get to make a living doing what they're great at and >> this was a favor. So I feel like I'm allowed to do whatever you're doing a favor for M say whatever you want but people are like this is their complaint but don't worry about their judgment I'm here I'm empathizing why is it dehumanizing demeaning dimin [laughter] it sucks the air out of me it does yeah why >> I'm very enamored with and we we weapped about this this thinker named Lan who was a French thinker and a French philosopher and he has a moment where he talks about the first time a child sees themselves in the mirror. >> Okay. >> And he says that there is a trauma in the first time you see yourself in the mirror. >> You didn't tell me this. Did you tell me this? >> Maybe not. If we >> What is the trauma? It is the first time that you realize that there is an interior self and a public self and that people are just interacting with your surface self. And what I think and he talks about that pain of like the first time that you realize that you're kind of like not one with the universe. It's when your your consciousness starts to individuate. I am it's like my I have a three-year-old son. You know what he the only thing he talks about now? I'm still a baby. >> I'm like babies don't need to leave. [laughter] >> But he keeps on saying he he feels it. He's three. He feels the individuation and the I see it and he literally declares >> I'm still a baby constantly. I'm still a baby. And I feel like that foundational pain of of looking in the mirror and realizing there's a se there's the perceived self and there's this interior self. When I confront that perceived self through other people's comments, >> even positive comments, >> even positive comments, it it it shifts my focus away from my interior self and I find those experiences really painful. There there was a there was a show uh that was produced by Tina Fay right after she retired from SNL called 30 Rock. I'm sorry, different show, not 30 Rock. There was a show called The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, also produced by Tina Fey, I believe. And she has this very um flamboyant friend named Titus Andromedan. And there's this scene in the show that I I would almost like plug in where Titus who's this like who wants to be an actor so badly so desperately. He's finally getting on television for the first time ever like on live TV. And he's sitting there like powdering up like his face. It's like this big heavy black man but like very theatrical. It's it's he's a hilarious character. And he's ready. And then like he starts like singing to himself. He's like, um, I'm going to be with eternity. Like, like I finally have my moment. I'm now living m I'm one with the stars. And then all of a sudden his mic is like, Titus, you're on. You you you we've already been filming. And then all of a sudden, he's like, "What? You're filming?" Like he's he just made a fool out of himself. He's like singing to himself. He's like, "Stop." And then he realizes the Chiron is there that has his name and he's like trying to like cover the digital Chiron. It's hilarious. And then he screams out. out. This is in a TV show. He screams out, "Stop. I want to be a baby." That's what he screams at. I want to be a baby. And that I appreciate that feeling of like I want I want the pain of differentiation and the individuation to to be less acute. And there are times where like I like that feeling of like that mirror stage. I feel like I experience that over and over again in my life because we are in public and we so often interact with people's perception of us. It can erode or serve as kind of this mask or barrier between me remembering and constantly centering my real true internal self. You're describing the pain, the trauma of the itadas. This is the trauma of the atadas. When you taste from the tree of knowledge, what knowledge do you gain? You become like uh can win trivial pursuit like you know lots of >> jeopardy, >> right? Jeopardy. The knowledge is self-nowledge but not in like an edifying sense of like insight. self-nowledge like crippling self-consciousness. Shame. Shame. Which is why the first symptom of selfawareness was was shame. Busha. Yeah. And and particularly, we could talk about this, but sexual shame. They covered up their nakedness, which they didn't have a concept before of of before because they were like babies. What does it mean they were like a baby runs around without a diaper on bush, right? Because a baby doesn't have a self-concept or a fragmented sense of self or what you saying lan calls this difference between the inner and outer self. So the itadas the the the tree of knowledge basically is where that construct of the false self emerges and maybe even not only becomes a distraction but maybe even becomes a focal point and then there's that pain of separation from self from self the separation from self which is you know an awful an awful thing to be separated from be separated from your true self. >> Can I ask you a question? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And this we were talking about, but I I kind of want your approach to it, and it doesn't really align with what we've been talking about before, but you brought it up. >> Sure, it's aligned. >> Why is it that the protottypical shame >> that the Torah addresses is sexual shame? >> There's so I also feel shame when I get up at 2:00 in the morning and I eat a a loaf of bread that could feed a family of four. You know, like they make those like big loaves. >> So, like I I like I could get like in a carb spiral and like I just first first I just peel off like the crusty layer and then I'm like >> shamed to leave the beautiful delicious white fluffy insides and then before I know it, it could mish be like >> it's in the middle of the night. I'm doing 2:30 in the morning. Yeah. >> And I have just finished a full proper loaf of like a loaf that like that you cut up into >> Yeah. Yeah. >> distinct sandwiches that could feed a family. That's your thing. That's your tya. >> It's one of my many tyas. It's one of my many tyas. But I've always intrigued by the unique why sexual expression, sexual um shame, embarrassment is always held apart in Jewish law, in phil like >> why is it a category unto itself? >> Correct. because is it is the quint quintessential shame. Not because it's inherently shameful, but because shame, like we said, is awareness of self. Too much awareness of self. And sexuality is synonymous with self. Too much awareness of self is too much awareness of sexuality. And and vice versa, too much awareness of sexuality is too much awareness of self. >> Why sexuality is so tied up with self? Because the true self, I'm talking when I say self, I mean the true self. Although when it becomes fragmented, then it becomes misappropriated and and co-opted by the false self. >> Sure. >> Okay. The true self is alignment with God. >> Oneness with God even. >> Sure. >> The the the signature quality of the human being that is godly is the capacity to create. >> Correct? Now that can be creating a podcast or writing a book or it can be literally the quintessential act of creation, procreation. >> Sure. >> And that's where your selfhood is most clearly revealed, your deepest self. And that's why it is subject to the deepest shame. And that's why the injury is the deepest injury. Somebody comes over and insults you, you'll get over it. Somebody comes over even punches you in the face, take a little longer, but you'll get over it. Somebody violates your sexuality. Why is that such a deep wound? Why is it such a deep wound? And we know that it is. We see that it is. You're correct. Because it is the most synonymous with my deepest self. And when that when that is I [snorts] I I'll say it not even injured but even when too much attention is called to it when somebody becomes aware of their sexuality at a at a at too young of an age right for instance classic example the awareness of it is the trauma in other words it's like I want to be a baby I want to not really understand where I end and the world begins. >> Correct? >> I don't want to have this much awareness that it is killing me. This degree of self-consciousness is is killing me. >> And so when someone comes over and says, "You you got a podcast." What they're doing is they're highlighting an aspect of your external self. Exactly. >> Which is not a shameful thing. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. But it's highlighting that awareness that you have of that outer self and and there's there's a pain of being forced. It's it's like someone making you look in the mirror. I don't want to look in the mirror. Correct. I mean, I'll check my hair just to make sure I don't look crazy, but >> I used to go I used to have a lot of trouble looking in the mirror cuz when my hair started going white, it gets a little thinner. I just like I didn't want to like look at that. I don't want to be reminded of what other people are experiencing. >> By the way, I love your white hair. It's one of your signatures. >> I know, but it started too young. Now it's great. I fully owned it. It's great. >> Premature. >> I got my first white hair >> in your 20s. >> 16. >> Oh my gosh. >> That's a little too young. >> No. No. It's good. It's a good look. Premature gray is a good look. You don't look old. No one thinks you're old. >> No. No one thinks you're old. >> I've caught up with it. I've caught up with it. I I've shared some I used to dye my hair. I mean, I had two in yeshiva. Oh my gosh. Don't make me >> You struggled with it. That's shame. >> Oh, big time. That was real shame. >> You're ashamed of it. Do you know how to >> No, I was never prematurely. Thank God I've never had such a [laughter] lived in your yeshiva dorm. >> Yeah. >> To dye your hair, you have to put on gloves. >> Oh, there's a lot of dying. You can't do that in the middle of a dorm. Lock yourself in a toilet stall. >> I would set it on 2:30 in the morning. I do in the middle of the night for sure. The same way that when you miss chakras and I wouldn't want to be putting on fillin at 9:15 and people >> you should have learned in labavich. >> Look, you know what I would do? I would go to the bathroom in the middle of morning sader around like 11. Yeah. >> I like, you know, walk out very like calmly and quietly [clears throat] and then the moment I was not in run back to the dorms, right? Slap on the rashies quick quick quick cuz I I just don't want anybody to see >> Uhhuh. >> I I don't want to be associated with it. Even though I was like pretty much missing chakras fairly calipin Jr. was missing chakras. It was fairly consistent practice of mine. But I want I want to to rap. So I would I would run to my dorms and do that privately at 11:00 and I would dye my hair once every >> Yeah. like 2:30 in the morning in the near dorms. >> So how is it now? Can you look in the mirror now? >> A little little bit more. >> Yes, I've learned how to do it much better. It was it was very genuinely very difficult for for a long time. I I I want to ask one question about and this is almost what we were originally going to talk about >> which is because we were talking about sexuality and self. >> So one of the theories that Lan talks quite a bit about >> I want you to weigh in on is is what is the nature of desire? [snorts] >> What are we doing when we covet? When we want something very badly and specifically with sexual desire. It's very interesting that there's something that it arouses you to such a degree. Yeah. >> That you feel like I I I I need to do something with this. [snorts] >> What are we trying? So, Lan has this theory which I which I love which she says it's the name of a book. All desire is a desire for being. Whenever we want something, what we want is not necessarily the experience, but what it what the experience represents. It's why we advertise luxury cars a certain way. We're trying to sell being. We're not actually trying to sell cars. We're not >> the car. It's the identity that I will have. >> Correct. >> When I have that car, >> correct? But there's no other desire that I have where like you're looking in, you're walking the subway and you see somebody eating a nice sandwich, >> right? >> It doesn't arouse me in the same way as seeing of being sexually aroused. Hunger does not ared. Yeah, you want to drink at the end of the fast. it it's not arousal in the same way that sexual arousal like shifts your whole sense of being into that direction. And what I'm trying what my original question was, which I was going to start, but now it looks like we're going to end on this note. >> Okay. >> Is how do you address and almost change desire itself? >> Meaning, how do you learn to want things that are healthier and better for you? >> [sighs] >> It's an interesting uh thesis. >> Like I wish I I was not I'm I'm a shik balta. I am. That's the real truth. And I wish >> you eat whole loaves of bread in the middle of >> full loaves and they're not it's not whole wheat, right? It's white, isn't it? White bread, proper processed carbs. >> Yeah. Yeah. But what I saw it's like how do you get to that root that root of like to get the desire and and fix it and fix it in a way that it is more constructive. We all have ambitions but we like the they can be so strong and so powerful. It's it's not quite the same question as healing addiction. I'm sure it's related in some ways, but how do we how do we figure out how to desire the right things? >> Yeah, this there there's a lot here. I mean, you're trying to like wrap up, but this you're opening up a whole new >> vista. I am. I'm sorry. >> No, it's fine. I'm I'm okay with it, but this is this a lot. >> I genuinely love sitting with you. >> Okay. I do, too. >> I really really >> sitting with you. not sitting with myself, although I'm okay with that. [laughter] Um, I mostly sit by myself. I mostly am missed. So, let let's take one on-ramp and see where it takes us. Why do people do stupid crazy things and mess up their lives because of sexual desire more than other things? Arguably, I would say that's the main thing. >> Yes. >> Right. Proverbial crime of passion, right? >> Um >> people throw away careers, jobs, right? >> Politics, empires, families. Yes. um and their self-respect or their morality or their Yeah. >> Like why is it like the thing that can get people to be so careless and stupid and like why is that the downfall the bane of >> Yeah. So, like I was saying before, the first symptom of self-awareness after the tree of knowledge was awareness of sexual shame. And they made clothing to cover it. And God said, "Why did you do that?" Cuz they didn't want to be naked. Who told you were naked? What does it mean you were naked? Adam wasn't a fool. He knew he was naked. It just didn't have any meaning. Being naked didn't mean anything. Wasn't scandalous to be naked. >> Correct. Like when we were kids, we used to that I had cop, we would say, "Oh, your epidermis is showing." >> Yeah, we had that. >> Right. So your epiderm of course my epidermis is showing. Right. >> Okay. And before the atadas, before the tree of knowledge, having your reproductive organs exposed was like having your epidermis showing. It didn't mean anything. Correct. Again, like a baby. Correct. >> Like a baby. >> Okay. when we became self-aware, when the self became fragmented into the what I'll use what you say is Lan's terminology of the inner and outer self. I'm not sure if that's the terminology he uses, but something akin to that. >> Um, so here here's the thing. The desire, the deepest desire of the innermost self is for union. I mean, there's a reason why King Solomon wrote Song of Songs as a love poem, and it wasn't to sell more copies. Says Schlamel had 3,000 shalom, 3,000 metaphors for every concept. For every con any concept, he could do 3,000 metaphors. Um, so he he certainly didn't have a lack of of >> imagery to qualify, >> right? and the fact that he chose this >> and he chose romantic sexual imagery to describe our spiritual relationship. >> Right. Correct. So there's a reason for that. And there's a reason the cabalists equate I mean all of the imagery of of of world building of of of God's being a creator is all um is all reproductive imagery. uh male female uh yehood. So there's a reason for that because the ultimate pain is the fragmentation. The ultimate pleasure is union or reunion where one loses one's fragmented self and has the the bliss, the peace, >> the ultimate pleasure. I just love it. Is union and reunion. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> To feel that wholeness. >> The feel the wholeness. Right. Exactly. All right. Now, when that is misappropriated, obviously it becomes um it takes us very far from God. Makes us do things not even far from God, things that are just far from common sense. But the original power of it is because not only is it the the most basic desire, but it's actually the only thing that we're here to do. Like you said, I'm on a schlikus and I forgot what my schlickus is. I have this nagging sense I'm sent here on a mission and I loved your imagery. I'm I'm on a mission and I'm like, where's my envelope? What do I where? Put it somewhere. >> Okay. So then what's the mission? I cannot tell you specifically what your mission is. I have some theories about your mission based on things that I know about you and your skills and your resources and um opportunities. So maybe I'll tell you later about your offline. But in general, I know your mission because I know everyone's mission. Um your mission is to make a home for God. Home for God. We call it but a home really means a home in the sense of like you get married and you have a home. Okay. So your your job is to get married. Get married to who? To God. And you're going to move in together. You're going to make a home together. Now, we're all doing this as well. It's not just you. It's not just Dove. I mean, it's also me. It's everyone else. >> So, your deepest desire is to experience that reunion with your true self, which is reunion with God, which is that feeling of wholeness that I can finally forget about the fragmented me. I can finally stop feeling separate. I can stop being self-aware. I can lose myself in in the in the oneness. Um, and your your job, it's counterintuitive, but in heaven, the soul was much closer to God. In the embodiment, the soul is, so to speak, farther. We're not talking spatially, obviously, farther from God. But by becoming far, it's like when Adam and Eve were separated. They were one and then they were separated and he says, "Now cleave together and become one flesh." You had one, you broke it up and said, "Get just leave it the way it was." No, no, no. Because the point is reunion, not unity, reunion. So to be divorced from wholeness and then to come back to it, we also call this tshoua. You don't have to sin to do tashuva. Um, and you can do tshoua from the embodiment trauma. Tshoua doesn't mean you did anything wrong. People are like, "Why should I do chuva? I didn't sin." Who kn Who said you sin? Toshuva means returning to your innate oneness with God. If you were embodied, you were sent away from God. The purpose is that through your embodiment to come back closer to God than you were before. In other words, I don't want to, you know, speak dirty here, but when when the Odum was male and female in one being, one organism, one body, there were certain things that he could not do. >> Correct. Right. >> Sexually. >> Right. Yes. Correct. Correct. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Okay. Um, by the way, just parenthesis, I in honor of my father's upcoming yards, I have to tell one of my father's jokes. I told my father was a psychologist. So my father said there was once a little boy who they were very concerned about him because he was making inappropriate comments of a you know mature nature. So they sent him to the school psychologist and he gave him the roar shock test the ink blotss you know the these little abstract forms and you have to say what it looks like. All right. So they showed him the first ink blot and he looks at it and he says, "Well, that's a uh you know it's an image of a, you know, like I'm trying to censor myself to be more adal here, but he said it's a Yeah. So then he showed him another ink blot. He said, "What's that?" Oh yeah, that's even hotter than the first one. Okay. And he shows him another ink blot. Whoa, look what that is. And the the psychologist says to the kid, he says, "Little boy, you seem very preoccupied with sex." Kid says, "Me? You're the one who brought in all the dirty pictures." [laughter] [snorts] >> It's great. It's great. [laughter] >> My father used to tell that joke. Um, by the way, I have a whole video on YouTube of stories and jokes that my father told me, and I didn't tell that one because I didn't have the guts to tell it. But >> here we are. Here we are. Um, he used to tell that about projection people who go around, you know, complaining. You brought the dirty pictures. >> Exactly. Okay. But at any rate, [gasps] um the the schlle is to feel fragmented from God, from our true self, to have the trauma of becoming hyper aware of that fragmented self, to feel pain from that. And then to do toua, to come back to oneness, the release, the bliss of just self-trcendence. I'm no longer stuck in myself. I'm, you know, you you said Lan uses the term being. I don't know what he means by it, but like to me being is the ultimate being. He who just is >> correct. >> God is ultimate being. And when we transcend our doing and we become one with God through surrender what we call BL doing our there's that wonderful pleasurable experience of just being just being it's the most profoundly satisfying thing. But if you don't know about that or you don't know how to do it, then you end up running after the fake version of it, the imitation version of it, which is, you know, the the hakama of it, the the lower level corsened version of that of that very actually um spiritual desire. I really can't thank you enough that we got this opportunity to like talk. Anytime I speak to you, I feel so um I feel very it's a strange term and it's used in like feeling seen. What is the experience of feeling seen? >> It's a way we talk about what when we used to go up to the ba mdash that feeling seen feeling that in your entirety which which is something I don't say lightly and I take quite seriously. and also your your entire idea which I love about the it reunity as being the goal not just unity is not the goal reunity is the goal >> right >> um which I always found beautiful just in the Jewish holidays that that we have so many holidays that celebrate the return of the divine presence to the temple and we never celebrate the actual construction of the temple >> is that your hiddish >> I just know >> as far as you know >> there's more time in the entire five books of the Torah spent on the one day of the calendar which is Roes Nissan which is when God's presence finally rested on the temple then any I mean it's it's multiple parios it's and it's a really important day and yet we don't really >> celebrate it in a formal way it's not any of the it's not Pesak it's not shivis it's not sukus it's not kanuka it's and it it's kind of this idea that I find very moving is that the celebration isn't about dedication. The celebration is for rededication. >> Right? And that's al the ultimate celebration is Messiah. What's Messiah? Messiah is reunion. But what you should understand is when Msiah will come, it will not just rectify the collective trauma that we experienced from the tree of knowledge. Because if that were so that it just rectified it, then it would be a zero- sum game. Basically, we started off here, we had a terrible time, but then we came back, we broke even. Broke even. You You leave the casino, at least I broke even. No, the whole thing was to come to a higher level. To come to a higher level. So just like embodiment, you go far away from God and experience the pain of self-consciousness in order to be able to do your do your mission in the world and then become one with God through doing that that mission and thereby becoming higher than you were from your point of departure before your embodiment. So the same thing with with Golas and Gula that we have to go through this whole dysfunctional >> collectively. >> Yeah. collectively like the all of history since basically day six of creation has been dysfunctional. Um but we come out of it on an infinitely incomparably closer plane than before. I mean I'm opening up a whole new discussion but >> this is the Messiah that I wait for. >> Adam was one with God before the sin. And that what what did the sin cause? Fragmentation that he felt separate from God. So then if Msiah comes and we're one with God again, so what was gained? The whole thing was like I said, you broke even. It would have been better not to do it in the first place. Uh but what he gained was separation. And then to be able to and the the obviously the I wouldn't even call this the parallel to sexuality is apparent. It's not even a parallel. It's literally the same concept. the becoming a separate entity so that there can be two who are really one becoming one that's what we gain that because of the tree of knowledge we gain that sense of separation when Msiah comes and we reunite with God that will not just be going back to the baby like innocence >> in fact you know we spoke about this when when I was at your house we spoke about >> chuva of experience and chuva of innocence >> that's right and it's a recurring theme. It's the same thing of experience and chuva of innocence. >> So pre before the sin was the the innocence that you're one with God, but you don't even know what that means. >> Yes. >> Then you lose it and it's a crisis and and you're self-aware and people are calling you the the the Twitter guy or you have a podcast and I can't look in a mirror because I'm hyper aware. And then you realize all of those things, all of those things are part of my toolkit for getting closer to God and ultimately becoming closer than when I was a baby. >> Reunedication. >> Yeah, >> Rabbi Shay, >> we have a lot to talk about after the cameras are off. There's no question. Come up with a plan here. >> I am so grateful that we got to spend time together. was an incredibly special regular and I needed this day the >> yeah brought this but I want to put it out there I think the should demand that you and I should do in addition I'm not going to stop soul words you're not going to stop 1840 but we should do regular collaborations >> consist I would it would privilege in my life >> we're going to talk about it after the cameras are off >> let's can we do >> let's just both look into the camera and be say our less for this video looking at the camera and say the count [laughter] of three >> you started off talking about loathed being performative. So >> just look at the camera performative. [laughter] >> Get vote early, vote often. >> Vote early, vote often. Thank you so much [laughter] for speaking with me today. >> Okay.