The Most Valuable Things I Learned From Building and Selling 4 Companies

Shai, how are you? >> I'm great. >> We know each other briefly from Buch. >> We do. >> Yeah. Um, okay. Let's do an introduction. Welcome to the What It Takes Podcast. We're here in the studio with Shai Stern. >> What's going on? >> Great to see you, brother. >> Entrepreneur, investor, advisor to a bunch of companies. That's on your LinkedIn. >> Simple guy. >> Simple guy. Um, assume you've had a good track record. I mean, doing quite well. And I invited you today on the podcast to talk about you. I want to hear your background, how you grew those companies, what makes a good employee, the successful traits you've seen in good employees, and hopefully somebody listening could pick up a thing or two and do well in their career and become super super valuable to the people they work for. [music] >> Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Let's let's go a little bit into your background. Where'd you get started? Where you from? >> Um, I grew up in Ken, New Jersey. >> Okay. Some far away land. It's a far away land and uh grew up in TK, New Jersey. Uh wonderful parents, uh wonderful grandparents, right? >> Grandparents all uh Hisha backgrounds. [snorts] Okay. All Holocaust survivors. >> Uh father's side is a vision mishba, mother side is a mkacha mishba. >> Entrepreneurs >> um through and through. I think most survivors were entrepreneurs. >> Um I think if not all all survivors were entrepreneurs. I don't think any survivor came into this country and took a job at a Goldman Sachs >> or in a law firm. It was the next generation that actually got jobs. But yeah, [clears throat] my uh my grandfather was a farmer. Um so in addition to running the shuladish on his Moshave and being a wonderful Jew, but he was a farmer actually. Uh and I was near this last couple of weeks. It was uh my grandmother's yard site. So they're buried out there. So I went with my mother. Um we went out to the farm where uh she was raised and uh where I spent a lot of time as a kid coming from Jersey. And uh it was wonderful to see the farm again. Um they had chicken coops. So a kid in Jersey was going to Eritis twice a year and I worked in the chicken coops. Um there's a lot of stories around that and picking oranges and climbing tines with my grandfather and um and I love to say that uh back in the day I'm not so old. I'm only 51. When I was a kid my uh my saba after Shak Friday morning we go to the makola and you pick up a a live fish. There was a barrel. You think it was like times of 10? There was a live there was a barrel and he stuck his hand in and grabbed the fish out put in a plastic bag brought brought it home to my soft and she would whack it over the head and that was our fish Friday night that we ate. I never ate that fish because once I saw it live and be whacked and be killed and cleaned and prepared, >> you know, it wasn't my kind of thing. But uh great experiences and my grandparents in Brooklyn um real old hima kind of they built a jewelry business, a wholesale jewelry business. >> Okay. Selling to jewelry stores. >> Uh they were selling to jewelry stores. So great experiences when I was a kid um in high school which was rather let's call it unconventional. My father would take me out in 11th and 12th grade. I was in a regular yeshiva high school in Tenic, New Jersey called Tar Academy, Burton County. Uh wasn't overly interested in uh being in school. Played a lot played a lot of basketball and uh my father was a big Tom Hawk and a big big Msmid and a businessman. Um so he took me out of school and he said come with me on a business trip. So I would imagine that the yeshiva you know being a modern Orthodox high school they knew my father was not uh he was not going on vacation. So we, my father taught me um at that age that we went on a business trip with him that before Shakris we [snorts] never missed a minion whatever that was before you had god doin.com and these apps um he'd wake me up early in the morning we learn a block of before we went to go to work every single time we traveled so that ingrained into me the kashibas of learning before domining and never missing a minion um and he had that business and then uh the last 11 years you know around 911 time the business struggled and he had to shut down the business and my father um Shalom he recognized and it's really applicable for on his podcast he recognized that people are struggling in Parnosa either one they're struggling in their jobs they're not comfortable in their jobs they need to earn more money in their jobs and he started an organization in Tene um now it's rather known in Bergen County and around lot of this area called project Ezra to help people get back on the feet my father but was the founder of project Ezra >> and um he had an an amazingly big heart he was an absolute nitiv and he built it with his bare hands with a lot of wonderful friends around him um helping people get retrained, helping them become better employees um and really helping them progress in their earnings. >> Nothing related to this podcast, but but I like the idea of your father took you out of yeshiva to go on business trips. Is that something you see you think people should do if it's a good for that child? >> Um >> have you done it? >> Um no, I didn't take my kids out of yeshiva to to go on business trips. Um I took my kids out of yeshiva go to um we did a lot of those ships me and my boys uh when we lived in LA for 15 years and they were younger. Um I would take my kids to um at least once if not twice a year on a five-day trip and u we did it we did trips that were amazing trips to take him to and we always uh blended it with a great time. So we'd go like uh >> you know we dive in Nets, have a great breakfast, go see Gdylm, go learn um go to a monkey park and then go see a Moral in the afternoon. So um I did a lot of that. I I I think it's risky. Um it worked for me. Um one I was blessed. My father and I had a really beautiful relationship. Not always. There were times it was very bumpy. My father was disappointed. I dropped out of college. Um later on I went to YU and I dropped out. Um he was disappointed in that. Um but we always had a great relationship and um he also had an amazing way of pushing um in a positive way. Today um a lot of one fathers have to know how to push kids. Today's a generation is different and uh kids have to know how to recognize their fathers of love and um and father >> is that possible >> because love will there's there's one relationship that will never ever have jealousy and that's the love relationship of a parent to a child not the other way around >> and healthy ones >> healthy ones no are there parents that are jealous of their children >> there are really >> there are there are parents if they see their kids being more mik than them in certain ways they they it's They're not they're not they're not as I'm saying they're unhealthy people. >> But a father and a mother should only be of course thrilled and she incredible for the success of their children in all ways and >> when it comes taking your kids at yeshiva everyone should do right >> everyone has to do what's good for them >> um and good for their children for for me was experiences that I I will always cherish. >> Let me let's let's go back to your career. Where' you start? How I mean >> um so uh so after when I did drop out of college my wife we had got married and I got married young and uh >> what's young? >> Well [clears throat] in in in coming from a modern orthodox world 21 is young. I was engaged at 20. >> Um so in the kisha world it's maybe a little bit fair today or a little bit on the little bit older side. In a modern world it's considered young especially back then. >> Um and in the in the lifish world it's today it's considered young as well. Right. I got married young and and my wife was expecting our first child and I needed a parnosa. I never had a share. I never my wife went to the without her father. >> Um and um my parents were wonderful people. But uh my father's philosophy at that time was if you're old enough to go get married, you're old enough to go support yourself. And I and I took it. It wasn't he wasn't being cruel. He was being that was his philosophy. That was his culture. And um I honored it and I understood it. So I got a Rashiva mine kasman was a was a great great Jew. and um he introduced me to the Carfuncle family and they gave me my first opportunity and I worked at American Stock Transfer and AS Stock Plan for a little bit of time. Um and then Hashem really helped me. Um there was one year where uh you know there's a is an interesting thing as a year that I was able to at that time go out during ykar it was Pesak um and um I was in te visiting my parents for yontiff and I went out during and I saw one of my friends Seth Farman and he also ban was out was able to go out for ykar at that time. The crazy thing is we're such brothers for life that we both lost our fathers within months of each other just how Hashem had that us even have to share that experience together which really creates a lot of brotherhood. Um so we both went outside and he goes what are you doing? What are you doing? And he was an attorney um who left his own firm. He left his firm to go start his own working out of his basement. >> What type of law was he doing? >> Corporate securities law. And um he uh he went on his own and he started to do Edgar filing work for publicly traded companies. And I said, "What is that?" And I said, "Pause. It's Yontiff. We're not talking about it. Where do you live?" He lived literally seven blocks away from me. I was in Cedars. He was in Woodmir. So we made up an issue club the next day. We got together. Um he came over to my house. There was a bottle of vintage seltzer on the table. Explained to him the business and I go, "Look, I'll bring you 500 clients in the next year." He goes, "How you going to do that?" I said, "Let's go 50/50. Hashem will give us mashem success. So, uh, he goes, "You want to run in the company?" I said, "Well, the name of the bottle of the seltzer is called vintage seltzer. We'll call it vintageings." So, we shook hands. Um, a Seth and I built four companies together. Never had a partnership agreement. Never. >> Do you recommend it though for other people? >> 100%. 100%. It's it's such a complicated suggest partnerships and partnership agreements. Um, but even agreements when they're in writing, if there's none to be a Mak like us, it's so so tragic. But I would been so blessed with Seth that uh we never had a partnership agreement, right? >> Brothers forever and uh never had a bad day together. >> Have you done other partnerships with other people and have an agreement drafted, written, signed? >> We we do we have it's complicated. >> Needs to be the right per always get it drafted. Always have something signed. >> It's incredibly complicated, Sylvia. It's an incredibly complicated Toyota says >> absolutely it needs to be drafted. I was wrong in that Seth and I never had it drafted >> for all four companies. >> Well, again wrong because the Torah says to have it. Um I got lucky fortunate that Seth and I never had issues but we all know terrible stories about brothers and families that suffer. Now the unfortunate thing is that even with documents and document definitions and intent of documents if people want to fight they're going to fight forever. Exactly. >> It won't even help. That's how tragic it is. There's a whole about you know look we're blessed in this generation that and many other teach and teach and teach about and how we have to elevate ourselves. We're going into you can work as hard as you want. If it's all the boss >> and if you want to get along with somebody you have to know that and shalom brings all the in the world >> right >> it's it's a lot of attitude Seth and I have a beautiful attitude that nothing will ever break it that um it's it's a mindset and it's a heart and it's a and it's a pursuit but has guidelines and you have to follow them. So your your career into entrepreneurship started pretty early. >> Very early. >> Pretty quickly. >> Very quickly. Very early. >> How long were you a W2 employee for? >> A year. Two. >> No, a couple years. A couple of years. It was from um I got married in the end of 95. So June of 96 I started to work. By 99 I was out. Um >> You were doing your own thing. I was Well, I there were a couple of steps in between. Um but yeah, Seth and I started that company in um right after pace of 2002. So there was like 3 years where I was bouncing. Um >> what was that like? >> Um I'd have to go back to the recesses of my memory. You know, sometimes, you know, things fade away and then you have to then there are moments that they come back to you. Um >> do you think you would have been a good employee? >> Um >> could you have lasted as a W2 for life? >> Um no. Um, no. Um, I uh it's a combination. It's there's a lot that goes into being a good employee. I I think I'm good in maybe today I'm better, but I I I think I would have been okay in taking direction. I think I would have struggled in being capped into what that direction is. Meaning they would have told me come 9 to5. And I had my first job. You know, look, most people were coming in at 9 to5. Uh when I lived in bar when I I was living in Flapish at the time the office was on 15th Avenue in Bar Park. My ambition was so off the charts that um I left a house so early that I used to go from Flapish to Bar Park and the do by Manasha Kuten Klein. I don't know if those who would know that is >> on 16th. Yeah. Over there. Yep. And he had the the they called it the Terra minion. They d even before Nets and I was there meaning I was at that minion and I was in the office before they even opened up the iron gate. I was there by six o'clock in the morning um every single morning like clockwork motivated to to figure out how I could be successful. That's not that's not an answer. It's not good. It's not healthy. I don't recommend it for my children. I don't recommend it for anybody because we've learned that a balanced life and integrated lifestyle of being a benter doesn't require that. But that's what I did at those times. Meaning I was there. I was there Sundays. There was no remote like meaning I had no options but to be in an office and I got there early and I prepared and I prepared and I prepared and I do believe that in business there needs to be a lot of to your day and at night in the morning to what your day should look like but to to focus in on your question about being a good employee. Um I I think my ambition surpassed what that box would have looked like. Um but at the same time I probably would have gained a lot by being able to um fit into that and learn more. You know there there are certain people over the years that I learned so much from so much from and at times you know they are guides um everything but at times I I do call them back up and ask questions. I do call them back up and say, you know, if I would have lasted six more months or three more months or if I would have been there at 40 and not at 22, you know, would my maturity levels would they have allowed me to see things differently and appreciate things differently and be a little calmer? >> Right. Wow. So, you started this this venture with um Seth. >> Yeah. >> What were you guys doing? >> Um so, we had a business that we did SEC filings for publicly traded companies. Um, so every public company has to have their SEC filings into a certain format. It's called Edgar. We were doing the Edgarizing of these documents. It was a service and uh financial print. That's what we were doing. It was a very focused business. And we literally just Seth was an Seth's an incredible partner. He was a great operator. I was doing the sales and just hustled and hustled and traveled and hustled and hustled and cultivated great relationships and it all worked because he was taking care of the work. There was never never had a customer complaint ever. Wow. And you guys started together. What was your first sale like? >> We um so we sold that company. We had a couple of interest. >> Not selling the company. Your asale >> selling getting your first client. >> Oh, yeah. It was great. Um so there a couple of things that happened. Um number one, I you know, here's a great one. You know, I started the business. I thought that people who were corporate securities attorneys who I knew, the guys who my father domined with in Shaw would be the layups. This is such an incredible lesson that the guys you know in SH the guys you're sitting next to the guys your family knows oh you know I have an uncle who's going to go in and give me a parnosa and then I called up this guy literally was my father's kusa sat next to my father in sh for 30 years I'm calling up saying and I thought he was going to be bull here's a piece of business like come on I'll of course I'll be your first customer he hung up the phone he called my father and he goes your son is such a fool why did he drop out of college he's going into an industry where there are these massive publicly traded companies he's going to be out of business but he did say something to me. He goes to me, gosh, if you're still in business in two years, in two years, I'll give you my business. >> I love it. >> So, um, I I [clears throat] marked down that day on my calendar. >> And, uh, and I marked it down. There two the two feelings that I had. The immature feeling was, "What an idiot." Like, what a behemoth. Like, seriously, here you are. I'm a kid. I'm trying. Like, >> you owe it to me, right? >> That was that immature other side. Wow, did he drive me? >> Wow, did he drive me? I could not wait for that second anniversary. And um so that was you learn a lot about that experience. Um and then you know one person there was a guy named Larry Burstein who I randomly met at a at a networking thing in the city. Larry Buren not from yet. He saw me. He goes, "Okay, you're a nice Jewish kid. Go meet this guy Rob Allen." And I met Rob Allen at his office and he goes to me, "I'm going to give you the business." And I said, "Well, I'm better, faster, and cheaper than the next guy." He goes, "How do you know you're not going to mess it up? It's an SEC filing." I said, "Well, look me in the eye. I'm going to try my best not to. I can't guarantee you, >> but look me in the I'm going to do my best." >> Confidence. >> And um but humble confidence, >> right? >> I didn't say to him, "I'm not going to mess it up." >> Not obnoxious. >> I I I said very nice. I said, "I'm going to do my best." >> And he he not only did he give me that first piece of business, we're still friends. >> Um and uh he's a great guy and we're still friends. And uh that was one. Um and then there were just amazing stories how one thing led to the next. Um, Adam got better, who's a partner of mine and some other things today and a bunch of businesses we've done together, was someone who I cold called probably 15 20 times until finally he was annoyed enough that he let me into the his office on 444 Madison and after 5 minutes he goes to me, you got all my business. Um, there was persistence but pleasant persistence. Um, and then there was, you know, jumping around and going to different places, you know, and I ran around the country. I tried to meet different securities attorneys in every city around the country. Um, >> what was your personal life like? >> A growing family. A growing family. You know, I um at a very young age, I became very close to Rafine Waxman and um so we've been very very close. I've been my Rebby now for 20 plus years. And um it was an interesting moment. I before we even moved to LA, I was living in Cedars and um I always knew from the house that I grew up in and that I always had to have kavas every single day. That wasn't negotiable. It was just I need a careers and but I didn't number one one I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know where I didn't know where to >> fit it into my day. I was so ambitious. I knew it was something that I needed. Just didn't know how to go do it. Going to a sheer was not going to keep me there. I had a cup of coffee look at my Blackberry back in the day. It wasn't um and uh we living in Cedar and my wife had a grandfather who was sitting here lived in Montene. He was sitting before his sister. So I said to my wife, it's all shi how guys se these things popped into my head. I said I'm coming to my this is talking about you know 25 years ago coming to my want to get a byba and u he goes she goes how you going to get in? I said we'll figure it out. Get a bra by and um and I said I got to meet this waxman. I knew who he was cuz I went to Manov and he was like a legend um and I'd heard [clears throat] a shir that he had come to the five towns for left and I went to the sh I'm like wow. So I called called the yeshiva. Now at that time my Yiddish was um not as let's call it a little bit improved than it is today. Um so I called the yeshiva. Mosha Nusen Oberlander who's now my brother Mosha Nusen answered the phone and his um his English was probably even worse than my Yiddish was. And but we communicated enough that I knew I had a meeting by the Rashiva in his house that night. So my wife and I went down and we came to M. We went to Ray Waxman's house went to his basement and uh he goes, "Okay, how can I help you?" this goes back, you know, 20 plus years ago. And I said, 'Look, um, I'm starting a business. I know that I have to learn. I know it's important. Um, I just don't [clears throat] know how to figure it out. I've tried, you know, I took a kusa who was a contemporary, a friend of mine. Um, but we end up talking about our, you know, our wives, our kids, our how we're trying to figure it all out, but business, Wall Street Journal, like, you know, we're trying, but like automatically you're bottling. You're not you're not achieving. Um, and I said, it's not it's not what it's defined, what it's expected to go be with e. So he looked at me and he goes, "I don't know you can afford today. I don't know what you can't afford, but go back to the five towns and ask around who the biggest in the five towns is and go meet that and then ask him how much he needs to learn with you at a time that's good for the two of you and you have to pay him." So I looked at him and I go, "Really?" He goes, "Yeah, go ahead and do that and call me after you get it done." So I went back to the five towns, made a couple of phone calls. I said, "How am I going to find who the biggest is?" He goes, "You'll find out." So I went back and I made a couple of phone calls and they they recommended a buffer actually from Shayash. His name was Shimul Da Calammer and um I met him and we cut a deal at that time. It was $600 a month. They were going to learn every single morning 5:00 in the morning and um and we learned for a little bit of time and then he got married. Then I learned with Abdil Bach. Then I learned with my good friend Natan Gerala. All that I paid. And as things went on, I was able to villain >> to uh but in in the most legit way. And but the ems was I was gaining so much more um because now you're connected to someone whose mom is sitting learning all day. And then when I moved to LA, before I even moved to LA, I called the in LA and I said, "I need every single morning. This is what I'm looking for. for his own TIG and he said to me what time and I said 5:00 in the morning LA time and he goes to me call the Lakewood guys the lift Chicago my guys aren't getting up there guys aren't getting 5:00 in the morning so I said to him well here's what I'm paying he goes I'll call you back in 5 minutes so he introduced me to my karusa who's my brother uh Ramatas Dinkos and Ramontas and I are learning together now for 19 years when I moved to my from LA he came a year later so we continue to learn and when I moved to Muny and uh we were moving I called Verdinsky who's right in our neighborhood and I said I can't come without without a kabusa >> and he introduces who I learn with. So um >> how many kabusas do you have a day? >> Those two areas and I have other random ones but those two I learned in the morning with a bap and at night with mantis >> lot. What are you learning >> in the morning? I learn with the d with her. >> Um and with raatis it's usually in around but now we're trying to finish. Um so throughout the years you know we've done we've done so many different things. Mont and I we finished shot together twice, you know, through through our years in LA. >> Um and we raised families together. When you learn with somebody 19 years, you even though he's >> or bean. Okay. >> Banan buan. By um um and I'm more modern, let's call it, but brothers are connected and and really connected through Tyra and and our families are close. It just it's really special. >> It's beautiful. Yeah. I learning every day in your business, employee, business owner, it doesn't matter. You should learn every single day. >> You have to and I and actually Montis um I introduce Montas to Raichu Rosenbound and they have now Terroso Buminosi and uh so he he works for for a company in Williamsburg now and he [clears throat] learns with 20 some a day uh throughout the day in a in a round. Yeah. Whatever the the time zones are. >> But yeah, but learning is everything. It's just the greatest gift of life. Um, so you started this this business with Seth, started getting clients, a lot of networking. How long did this was vintage >> vintage filings? Yeah. So, we started the business in 2002. We sold it in 2007. >> Sold because someone offered you a boatload of money. You guys wanted to try something else. >> Um, I I I think it was um we were we we we had a couple of different offers. >> You were looking to sell. >> No, I don't think we were looking to sell. We didn't we didn't hire a banker. We got a couple of different offers. Um it was a lot of braha um at a young age and um we decided to take one of the offers. >> How big was the shop? How many employees? >> I don't even remember anymore. Um >> 510 20 50. >> It was probably close to I would say 60 70 I don't remember anymore. >> It was it was probably between 50 and 100. >> What were you guys doing in revenue? >> Uh we leave [clears throat] that we'll leave that you know undisclosed but it was it was a braha. It was it was five years of a real real braha. What happens next? >> Identity crisis like what do I do now? >> Um, not really because I had ambition. Um, so it wasn't, you know, Seth called me up afterwards and we already were thinking what's like what's next? It wasn't like, you know, neither one of us said, "Okay, now we're going to go to the beach." It wasn't it's not First of all, Seth's like just an incredibly humble person, so it's not his DNA to go do that. Um, none of us we don't come from money. like we're not like we're just simple guys, you know, who who worked in Hashem BL. Like we're not, you know, so it's um we just said what's next and then uh we got introduced to uh Seth actually knew Ley Mueller who was the founder of ECorp and um so we uh we end up it was called the incorporator and Seth um created an arrangement with Ley that we could become partners. So we renamed the company called VCorp and Bashan that was uh that was successful. Actually a really funny story there when we were discussing um when we met with Ley um the incorporator was really only in three states. It was in New York, New Jersey and Delaware. All >> right. And um we're sitting down and Hashem put into my head I don't know how these words even came out. And I said to him I said I'll get you all 50 states in less than 60 days. >> And and Seth's like what are you talking about? How you like you can't [laughter] say that? You can't you can't commit to that. And I said, "Well, Hashem's going to help us." And Seth went down the meeting. He goes, "You just told the guy you're going to do this thing. How you going to go do it?" I said, "Seth, I'm telling you, we'll say, "Hashem's going to figure out a solution." And as I said that, I go, "I got the idea." He goes, "What's that?" I go, "Kabad." I said, "I'm going to call Kabad literally in every state and I'll have all 50 states make a donation to Kabad to some of these different cities." >> What's the process to >> They just have to All you need is an address. You need an address to that if mail comes to this location, they can scan the mail over to us and we'll process. So literally within 60 days, you know, I worked through all the kabads and we had offices. [laughter] >> That's hilarious. >> It was just, you know, but and then we're able to to build a business and uh and then we had an opportunity to sell that as well to the uh the leader in that space and we sold it in 2016. And then and then again we said, "What's next?" And Adam got better who I mentioned earlier, he he said to me, we're having lunch and he goes, "Be going to the background check space." So um we go, "Okay, >> employees >> um for transactions for deals." So, um, if for example, um, JP Morgans came with a $200 million real estate loan or Andre Hartwitz is doing a venture deal or Blackstone's doing a private equity deal, go into that business and we know nothing about it. He goes, I got a guy, this is so funny. I got a guy, Mike Adams, who's sitting in Santa Paul, California. And by that time, I was spending a lot of time in California. And I go, I don't even know where Santa Paula is. So, I look on the map and it was right near the winery, the Oxnard Winery, the Herszogs. And so, I called up Monty Herszach, who was a neighbor of mine in LA. And I go, Monty, where's Santa Paul? He goes, "Flex, I don't know." Lit the map. I said, "Monte is 30 minutes away from you." He goes, "Don't know." So, I went out to Santa Paula and you have to go through like some strawberry patches and avocado fields, this small little called Santa Paul, California. Met this guy Mike Adams. >> Probably so beautiful. >> It was gorgeous. It It's beautiful. And uh my side, I met this guy, Mike Adams. We cut a deal with him. Um his company was called CBI. >> Okay. >> And renamed VC Global. And uh we started to go um and uh the company started to really take off. Why the V? >> Um, it started with Vintage. It was called Vintage Filings Corp. Yeah. So, it was vintage filings. The name of that the website was called V Filings. So, we just played off that. I went to V to V to V. Actually, funny that when it we named our company now, Gotavi. Um, so we're coming up with different names. We're thinking about how you name the company Gotavi. And, uh, so Adam said, "You got to have a V in there." And I go, "I'm not doing a I'm not doing it." But then I woke up in the morning and because my kids were saying, "Thy you have to have um the the word go in it because you always say let's go let's go." So [clears throat] I said, "Okay, VG go V." Ah, I woke up in the morning and I go here's the name of the company going to call it Kotavi because at this stage in my life it is incredibly abundantly clear to me that I could do all the in the world that I gives me to go do but unless brings it's very so go and the should go ahead and bring that's the go >> that's a short on its own so editors so before go so you got into vch >> got to v um and uh that alone has it has its journey we're we're doing nicely getting a bunch of commercial real estate kinds of deals. Um, reputationist helping us. >> You're doing the due diligence. >> Yeah. So, we're So, I'm not the operational guy, but the process more or less was you have to check into the principles into their previous entities to make sure that they're all kosher. Um, and they spend a lot of money on this because they have to make sure that the diligence and the compliance is proper. And we started win some nice nice accounts. And then co came and we were 90% um real estate work. And um I remember I was sick as a dog with CO in bed and um and the business was down 90%. >> Wow. >> Like off the cliff. >> How many employees? >> It was close to 40 50 at that time. >> You did any layoffs? >> So we had no choice. Like we we literally we had I remember lying in bed and literally I was so sick and um and I had another company at the time, Czech. And so both Czech and VC were my responsibility. And um they both are going through different challenges. And um and I said to Seth and I said to Adam and I said, "Look, we got ourselves a problem here." And um we didn't know what we're going to do. That was the MS. We didn't know what we were going to go ahead and do. And it was very stressful. And then, you know, Trump comes along and he announces PPP money. Everyone was sitting around and we're just saying to ourselves, "The Abish is the boss. The Aish is the boss. The Aish is the boss." You know, we're all, you know, Adam's not sham shabas, but he's a he's a good person and he he buys into a lot of the amuna stuff that we feed him and Seth is is a real special Jew. And we've been learning this bara and working on for years and we kept on saying, "Look, there's an abish up here. If they like where we got to see figure this out and when that for many many business owners when that PPP concept came out, it was mamish like like where'd [snorts] that come from?" >> Lifesaver. momish a lifesaver. And um now the then the next question was how do you get the money? Cuz if you remember at that one moment um the money wasn't available to everybody and there was a rush to who actually was giving that money. You know Cross River was then coming up. There was another bank um NCB that's based in DC. There were these guys who had a fintech platform called Cabbage. You really unless you knew somebody you couldn't get access to money. And I had to get money for two companies. It was it was really a para. So Cross River helped us on Vcheek and NCB helped us on check. Um but we still and then the way that that PPP money worked is that you can't lay off. You [snorts] have to take the money in order to maintain support the payroll and support the jobs. >> And so the business going off the cliff. What do you do with the employees? There's no work, >> right? >> So that was that was the next question. So we had to really make a couple of adjustments, made a couple of pivots and the Aisha helped us and the business went like this and then it went back up. So >> you still involve um VC check you [clears throat] >> we sold that business in 21. >> And what was checkold? >> Czechold is a payments company in the check processing business. >> Instead of sending paper checks you do >> we it was we were we service banks and financial institutions when they receive checks as receivables for their clients. >> If somebody wants to pay a mortgage sending a check >> pay mortgage or HOA dues or the utilities. >> Okay. Are you familiar with Cherry >> with Cherry the payment platform? How similar or? >> No, no, no. Completely completely different. They're beautiful business. >> Um, are you still involved in checkold? >> Um, I'm an equity holder but no longer involved in day-to-day. >> What made you decide take a step back and focus on other things? >> Um, it was a couple of different things. I think that one I was tired about talking around paper checks. You know, every time I spoke about paper checks, people say to me, "Hey, Shai, checks are dying. Why are you still in that business?" >> When was the last time you wrote a check? Well, I um I don't write checks too often, but we use those checks um a lot for those OJC checks. Um but um but again, guys my age are writing checks. Younger folks are not writing checks. Um but there's still 15 billion checks in the country and a lot of and that's with a lot of the data. Like there's still a business around it. >> But I was I was ready for my next challenge and um you know, so it's time to go start Kotavi. >> What is Gotavi? >> Um So the thesis around Gautavi is that um we came to the realization that every single boardroom is going to have the same conversation today. How do I build a new company with AI or how do I fix my company with AI? >> Okay. >> Um but the actual plumbing of the business um the formations, the compliance, the business licenses, the background checks, the payments, the insurance, certain AI tools. Um some of them are specialized but a lot of them are commoditized. um you know, you buy your insurance from a guy you know or someone recommends. >> Um as great as the people are, but you have a guy or you have a relationship similar to formations or similar to payments, there's not too much nuance around the actual provider. So they're they're commoditized as much as I think I'm special, but they're commoditized. Um so I said, but they have to go to a different vendor for every single one of them. And we live in a world where Amazon come to Amazon, you buy what you need. You go to a website, you buy what you need. You go to Evergreen, you buy what you need. Right? Um so I said why can't we go ahead and create a AIdriven platform where you can buy what you need and so you can focus on your business. So that was the original idea and we've launched a business. We have eight different revenue streams. I've been blessed with a phenomenal technical co-founder real great Alicia Herman a great talent worked at HSBC for a dozen years. >> Wow. >> Um my chief of staff Michelle um who's been with me for 13 years came along. My son Ellie is with us bunch of developers and uh we're going >> You have a very strong background in tech. Any advice somebody wants to get into tech how to break in? Not necessarily as an entrepreneur, business owner, but >> um well, it depends what kind of role you want to be in in tech um or AI or in software, [sighs] what role suits your personality. Say if you want to be a salesperson, sales is sales sales. Those are tools around sales. Depending on the type of sales, depends on how detailed and how much you actually need to know about the kishkas of the business or um enough to be dangerous, >> right? >> Um if you want to be a programmer, then you have to know where your value lays. um where do you actually add value? You could be yes I was speaking to um a fellow from JP Morgan who has a new role at the bank but he got that role at the bank um because he number one was an engineer then he became a um a product engineer then he became a product leader and now he could become and now he can run a business line. The reason why he can go do that is because deep down inside he has the technical chops they call it as an engineer. So once you see where your tonosh really goes you see where your personality is pulling you then you got to really double down on that. Don't don't try to change your tonos and effesh meaning my tonosph is sales just what it is is relationship building others have tonas is operations you know my partner in vstate filings today aviard Alex anglard is an incredible operator meaning he he's knowledgeable about the industry in ways I'll never know the industry and and he's just a phenomenal operator and that's a great skill I'll never be that I'll never be able to be what Seth can be and uh now I think Seth is way better than I am at a lot of things. But there whatever your tonesh takes you just go work it like >> I'm getting the impression doing all these different companies you've been involved with. You were primarily on the business development sales side. >> That's that's all I >> that's it. >> That's my that's my happy zone or my comfort zone. >> Um you mentioned Michelle who I was in touch with to get you on the podcast. She's been with you for 13 years. >> 13 plus years. Yeah. >> It's incredible. What what makes someone last that long? Which is 13 is very good. It's not so common anymore. >> Um well, number one, she's got incredible tolerance for me. Um and she's she's an incredible soul. Um so Michelle lives in Memphis. You know, she's not Jewish. Lives in Memphis. Okay. >> She um >> shout out to Michelle. >> Watch this podcast. >> Absolutely the best. Um Michelle um started working for me. Actually, it's funny. Last night I went there by wax pre Adam Shayash and uh an old friend of mine Eric Schwarz was there and uh we call him Schwarzy and he says to me remember I'm the one who gave you >> from Tene >> from Bergenfield. Yeah. >> Is he involved in MDY? >> Could be >> Stfansky. >> Could be >> cuz I Okay, fine. >> So Schwarzy says to me, he goes, "Don't forget I gave you Michelle." I said, "I have endless cars that type cuz I saw him one time in Jersey in the city years ago." And he goes to me, "My old secretary Michelle is moving out to LA. You got to hire her." I'm like, "Ah, I'm not taking No, you got to take her." And I met her and hired her on the spot. She She worked with me in LA for two years. And then she told me that she's moving with her boyfriend now, her husband, to Memphis. That's where he's from. And I go, she goes, "I have to resign." And I said, "Absolutely not. You're great." We we were doing most of our work, even though she was sitting literally 50 ft away from me. When I was traveling, it was always on WhatsApp. So I said, "The same WhatsApp." Imagine like if I'm traveling and you're in the office or if I'm in the office and you're in Memphis would make a difference. So before even remote work was even a concept, you know, it was great that Hashem again helped me and she was so grateful that she can move to Memphis and not have to look for another job and to be a part of our journey [snorts] that she she stayed and um we've gone through 13 years of of life and business building and and struggles and all these different things that you go through for 13 years and has been just a priceless value asset to to me all this time. >> What makes somebody a great chief of staff? Um, one, she's um, phenomenally organized. Um, she's a great writer. Um, can finish my sentences many different ways. Um, >> that took time. That didn't happen right away. >> That's true. But again, it's, you know, like certain things are DNA. Certain things either you got it or you don't. For example, loyalty. And I put out on my Substack this week about Russ about Russ the definition of loyalty. loyalty and being grateful and akaratto and being there for others unconditionally um is an amazing attribute an amazing mida um but she's got first of all amazing organizational skills one two she's got a beautiful memory meaning a great memory like I could forget things and she'll know know it in a second >> okay >> um three she's um a great writer and I'm not um so that's a great advantage so years I was traveling I'd finish a meeting send her a voice note and she'd do the follow-ups for me, um, proposals. Um, and today, operationally, she in all the businesses, she was able to operationally step in, manage accounts, handle customer service issues, set up procedures. Wow. >> Meaning such a a tremendous asset. And and if you go and you look, historically, the word chief of staff didn't come up. There was um a secretary, then there was an executive admin, executive assistant, and then there was okay, then there was a new word called chief of staff. And the definition, what does chief of staff mean? Well, chief of staff means if this guy's going to show, he's out for shoppers or he's out for Yandiff, nothing skips a beat. Like literally nothing. And um for for a firm person, um you can't it's an incredible value, >> right, >> to have if you don't have to come back. There were days, you know, I'm sure many folks remember the days you come out of Shabas, come out of Yant on a Tuesday and a Wednesday, and you go check your mailbox, you go check your phone, you go check your emails, go check your texts, your WhatsApp, you're seeing what's going on on LinkedIn. I don't I don't have that. >> It's amazing. It's amazing. >> Was it from the getgo or it took time to build that up? >> Um, it was pretty quick, you know. It's it's a braha. you know, I have a I have another admin who handles a lot of stuff, you know, for me on the personal side and um for 20 plus years and you know, I won't mention her name because she wants to be super behind the scenes um for probably 23 24 years from Lady and um has been there with my family throughout the entire time. her husband does our taxes and um loyalty to the end degree, super organized and and that also goes into me recognizing where my weaknesses are. Um and uh when you see your weaknesses and you know what they are and you know where your strengths are, then you have to see how do you fill those gaps in order to be the most productive. >> I have some rapid fire questions for you. What's the best hire you ever made and what was the tell? >> Michelle McClloy. >> That's it. >> Period. End the story. >> What was the worst hire you ever made? What did you miss? >> Um, dishonesty. >> They lied. They sold themselves. Well, >> you don't have to say name, but what was this person's role or responsibilities? >> The um fake, not genuine. >> Can you elaborate what happened? you when when when you when you hire this isn't me meaning I'm not there are people who like to interview people and you do psychology tests on people for three four five rounds of interviews >> um maybe it's a weakness or maybe it's a strength I'm a very trusting person I like to trust people it's a it's part of my DNA I I like people and I and I like to have an eye toe that people um and I'm optimistic that people are good >> that's a very important thing for me >> wow Um, it's not necessarily a good thing in business because business has to be I don't necessarily agree with this. People say that business has to be cutthroat and business is a business. It it's not the way I roll. >> Maybe that's why you know some people say you could have made so much more money if that's not my DNA. I don't believe in it. There's a boss upstairs. It's not. It's wrong. It's hashgraphically wrong and it's factually wrong. It's just wrong. >> So I give people benefit of the doubt and after a couple of minutes in a meeting I'm like okay I got it. you know, you're going to be really valuable to me. >> And they could be valuable for a little bit. And then when challenges come in a business or when there's a thing that needs to go down or a project or something and they're not there with you >> stepping up >> and they're it's it's not stepping up or they're saying, you know, to others in the company, ah we disagree and they're not going along with it. They could be a disaster within an organization. Um or there are people over the years that um I elevated elevated elevated and then suddenly they forgot how that career trajectory happened and then suddenly they get too big and they get arrogant and then suddenly they're like I know better than anybody else what to go do. >> Sounds like it's happened before >> and and these things they happen. They happen and they're hurtful. >> How do you deal with it? >> Um they're very hurtful. Um so there are two different parts of it. Number one, you know, I am an emotional person, so maybe too emotional at times for business. So, it's it hurts. So, that's part one. I I I I take it hard. Uh then when I have to deal with in a business setting, um you have to find a way to get out. You have to say, "Look, it is not it's not going to work." And um that's one of my weaknesses. I'm not good at firing people. I'm not good at confrontation. >> What was your high hardest termination that you needed to do? There's a whole bunch of them. Um, yeah, it's life, you know. You're in business for 30 years. You build multiple companies. Um, you're going to go through tough times. You just you're going to it's it's part of the journey. It's part of life. Um, it's not my happy place. >> Any advice for someone out there who needs determination? >> Um, so so number one, you know, if I was to go back, you know, 30 years, 20 years, 10 years, >> how would you do it? I I truly I don't know the answer because my my neph is not confrontational. So I I dash I don't have confrontations but they they come and then I have to have somebody who can help you navigate through it or someone that could take that off your shoulders. There are times I had a good chief people officer and HR person that would help. But when you're the boss and the relationships are yours directly. You got to deal with it directly. But I'm not good at that part and I'm open in saying it. I am I'm not good at confrontation and I'm not good at firing people and I'm not good at it's just not not my good zone. >> Did you ever wait too long because you didn't want the conversation? >> Too many times. Too many times. >> How did it affect the business? >> Terribly. >> Would you have gone if you can go back? Would you have done it sooner? >> Of course. But but again in in in our hashkaf view in Yiddish guy, you know, you can't play the Monday morning quarterback. What you could do is you could do what the Balento says and look and use it to apply for the future. But um again, you know, a person should not change who they are. And um I've got great Rabam who, you know, with Waxman and Kasman and Kath my Rebie passed away this year a couple of months ago. I I always had a great my brother-in-law of Ellie Marcus. I always had great group of folks around me um that I was able to smoo things through. So I think it's very important this audience is is from high mission business people. You got to have a rebi like meaning it is or if you don't have a rebi in in >> say it goes >> say but it applies in business and it's not hi should I go buy a business but it's not smoozing at how the m works in a business and how you manage through relationships in a business I mean if I was able to to go back I I probably but again with maturity and time and experiences you learn. You're not, you know, as a 20-year-old kid building a business, 30-y old kid building, a 40-year-old, your energies are different and your ambitions are just like everybody like a bull in a china shop. I got to go. I got to go. I got to go. And therefore, if there's like a thing that distracts you, I'm like, "Gh, I don't want to be busy with that nonsense. I just want to go get my next client." But if you're not taking care of the shop, then who is? And then you have a problem. >> These things are complicated. You you you got to be able to know that when Hashem throws that curveball at you, it's it's it's more important to focus on taking care of the shop than maybe getting the next customer. I not always did well at that. >> Interesting. Did you ever have an employee that surprised you and crushed it? >> Michelle Mlo. Um there there are many. Uh we had a there's a from guy named Aka Blumenthal. Um we had a background check business. AR Rodman in our background check business meaning those guys were phenomenal. Adam Frammwitz phenomenal my friend >> collaborate what made them phenomenal. What made the good um [clears throat] >> W TWS? >> Um those guys were on the sales side. So I always um did very well with sales guys and how they delivered. On the op side um there's a woman in in Czechall named Carolyn Morris. Probably one of the best relationship managers you'll ever meet. Um just a sweetheart of a person, a great soul and um just so dedicated, devoted, sweet voice, never got flustered by a customer and a dream WW W2 employee. We had um we had guys when Seth and I started Vintage Filings um and there's a woman in check called Christina Rogers down in Miami. I hired her literally in three minutes. She wasn't from the industry and I go if my customers ever have to talk to this woman I win every time. Hired her in three minutes um in Miami. Um and there were guys when we started Vintage Filings who were phenomenal. Um you know I can go through their names. guys pulled allnighters opera stuff just doing stuff and loyal Steve Yakob I meaning guy went on to build you know another business did beautifully were still good friends and Mari and Drew from Queens just an incredible W2 employee um there are guys who always stick out great great guys great gals um >> is there something you were doing to find what are you looking for in an interview to see how good they're going to be in that role >> um so again it depends on the role if you talking about ops, finance, sales, marketing, technology, support. Um there's a guy who lives in Tene Martin Clayman um who works at checkold. That guy would get the shirt off his back to to help another person within a company. So there those who are client facing and there are those who just phenomenal energy and support and pleasant to be around internally. Um there there are there are guys who just they come to the office and everybody wants to be around them and they elevate a whole room. Um [clears throat] so when you're talking about a W2 employee, there are a couple of things. Number one, what your task is, do it well and keep on trying to refine your skills to do better at it. Two, be an amazing team player. like if you're able to help other people and elevate the organization, elevate the environment, um you add so much more value. Now the challenge is going to be don't let your mind go to wow look what I've done for this company and suddenly automatically the boss has to go ahead and give me keep doing well. Eventually two things are going to happen. Either the boss will recognize you or he won't. >> Those he won't someone else will >> or he won't and someone else hopefully will. But what you are doing for yourself is you're making yourself better. Making yourself better will always provide for you. Maybe not in this environment, but it will, as you just said. And look inward as to always how you can do better. >> That's gold. That is gold. That's another short. That is gold. Wow. I have a feeling I know the answer to this question, but do you read resumes? >> Um, should resumes or business rumés? >> [laughter] >> Um, I I look at LinkedIn profiles today. There no resumes anymore. I look at LinkedIn, you know, I look at LinkedIn. >> What are some turnoffs for you? >> Um, job jumping is obviously a big one. >> Um, today today I'm a big LinkedIn user. So, if if you there are people if you're not properly using LinkedIn for yourself, not recognizing its value. To me, again, I'm in a sales marketing mindset role. Um, something's off on it. If you're in a tech role, I can really evaluate your technical skills. Um, I can evaluate sales. I can evaluate, for example, sales. Very simple. Tell me the last deal you closed at your company. And tell me why you think you won. Tell me the deal you lost. Tell me what it did for you. Why did you lose? How did you lose? What did you What could you have done to win it? You know, a lot of people in sales, they think they lost. They lose a deal and they lost it and they forget about it. you know how many deals you win the next year or two years down the road or three years down the road. There was a man um who worked at American Stock Transfer, a great Jew from an alle in New Jersey named Harry Shman. You know all about Shelton. He he was Harry and I used to have very early sch smoozes at American Stock Transfer. Like he would come from an alien leave at 4:30 in the morning. >> Whoa. >> And he'd be there at 6:00 or 6:15. I dash couldn't click. We'd have a coffee. We smoo a little bit together. He would say to me and I say to him, he was more seasoned than I. And I would say, "Harry, what do you do when you lose a deal?" He goes, "Number one, I would always say to them, when the next guy who you choose messes up or something goes sideways or you're open for a re-evaluation, allow me to be their first phone call." So instead of saying, "I lost and be bitter and goodbye and zone and rip up the proposal and forget about it," he leave the door open with elegance. And there's so much that could be learned from that little anecdote, you know, to be able to um conduct yourself with al with with elegance to know that a no, you know, a friend of mine used to say to me, one no is that one every no is one step closer to a yes, >> right? >> Every no. That's in sales. It's the same thing with jobs. If a boss tells you no today, now you have a right. You know what your right is? You go into a boss and you ask them for a raise. Now, to be able to go in and ask for a raise, um, number one, takes incredible courage because we all hope as W2 employees and the boss will recognize you without you having to humble and belittle and make yourself so ashamed to go to your boss and and say, "Hey, can I get a raise?" Either because you deserve it or because partially you need the money. Either which way, you got to go in there. And now he tells you, "I get out of here." No, I just gave you last year and I just gave you a bonus. the company is not doing well. Whatever the reasons are, now you walk out of there literally you feel lower than two cents and you can't call your wife. You can't call your husband. You push it the ba the the shame is awful. Okay. What are your choices? Right? What are your choices? Your choices are to go back home, brush yourself off, and send your boss the following note. Whether it be the next day, remember there's a very important tool about life and this goes into sha bias. It goes into business relationships. Just because a conversation ended doesn't mean you can't go back to the conversation. The conversation closing doesn't mean you can't go back. If you have a disagreement with your wife or with a child or with a parent or a sh whatever the situation is or a boss or a colleague or a client, you can always go back a day to a week, a month, a year later and say, "I was reflecting on our conversation. I was reflecting on it." Now, you could reflect back to a boss and you could say, "I was reflecting on the conversation. I apologize if I approached you at a time that wasn't good for you. It seemed you were frustrated or something might have been going on. I apologize for that. Whether true or not, the guy could have treated you like an animal. If it doesn't make a difference, being able to try to lower the temperature to can I ask you if there's a reason why or can I ask you when do you feel there'd be an appropriate time for us to revisit the conversation? Now, when you ask a boss, when do you think is an appropriate time to revisit the conversation? What you're basically doing is you're saying to him, "Hey man, I I you can't just throw me out. I'm working here. I'm giving you my kishkas. I'm giving you my life. I'm devoting my working time to you." And a lot of my mind, a lot of my heart, a lot of my energies going into performing for you so I could put food on my table and be able to make nice weddings and build families. When can we have that conversation again? Now any boss who's a decent person is he going to be able to say to you three months, six months before yontiff, whatever it might be. Now you can say between now and then what can I show you that would then impress you and help the outcome be good. So what you're doing is you're you're setting yourself up for success. One of the areas that I wish I would have done better many many times over the years is being able to take a step back from my ambition to go close a deal to be able to take a step back and say let's discuss expectations. Well, if the company performs this well and you contribute, this is what I like to go ahead and do. Now, the boss might say to you, I don't know. I'm going to buy a business and I need the cash and I got to keep payroll low. I understand that. Where can I help you? Where can I shine that makes me more valuable to you in your world? Can we track towards something? Most people don't have the courage to go do that. Don't have the skills to go do. Don't have the tools to go do it and are afraid. The boss's gonna say get out, but that's not the way to go. The way is to build up the the courage, the confidence, the tools, and um that's their >> that's how you deal with a raise rejection. Any advice to ask for a raise? >> Um well, I think it's a similar approach. When you want to go ask for a raise, you have to in your mind know you're going to go get rejected. >> Okay. >> Now, why are you asking for a raise? Why do you feel you deserve a raise? You're brought in under what comp plan? Why are you going in there? Are you going in there because you added more value to the company or because something changed on your end and therefore you need more money? Well, if you need more money, it doesn't mean that the company needs to pay you more. It just means that you need more money. So does the boss have to give it to you? Love Dafka. Doesn't mean that the boss has to give it to you. So you have to think how do you align yourself with the interests of the company? Very hard conversation to have with yourself. And once you know that then you have to say okay number one why am I asking for a raise. Okay I'm asking let's talk >> just had another baby. >> Had a baby. I had a baby. I'm making whatever the reasons are. I had another baby and my wife needs her 40 second shy. Whatever the reasons are I want to buy a new shrim. whatever it might be. So that has nothing to do with the company. >> Only has to do with the value you add. >> It's nothing to do with the company. >> It's by the way it's very hard to hear that. It has nothing to do with the company. No, but I work for a high guy. So what he also had he just had seven eye in the last three months. >> I wish more people knew this. So now now that you know that. So what do I go do? But I did have another Okay. But now I did have another baby and I don't I'm not taking no second job. Like what? This is my job. This is where I'm at. I did have another baby. Are you telling me I shouldn't have more babies? Khalila go. We need as many babies we could have Hitler >> right abs every last one. Keep on going. More babies. More babies. More district. The best. But now okay. But now you have to say you have to align and say I need more. Very good. Now you can go to your boss and say I understand that the company might not be in a position or in my role my contribution is not delivering more that I deserve more but can I ask you a question you know what can I do more here that in 3 6 months from now I can earn more >> a blueprint >> and blueprint and by the way number one habisha made it that it takes nine months to have a baby usually the husband knows before anybody else So laisa say your wife told you when she's a month pregnant whatever time she tells you you know you have eight months be er you know whatever time it is for you to go ahead and plant seeds and and and and if you're the working person you're the one who's supposed to bring home the prana you got to own it and you can't just wake up after the baby is born tell the boss about the kdesh the breast the vaknak the what the and say oh you have to be able to have the foresight there's a reason why there's It's our job to prepare. This is also included in that. And >> what can I do to earn more money and be more valuable to the company? >> Absolutely love that. >> Absolutely. >> You know, most people don't ask the questions and most bosses don't know how to answer it. And so if your boss if you caught your boss off guard and he doesn't know how to answer the question, what do you do? >> Bookkeeper, you're making $80,000 a year. What can I do to make another 10, 20? What can I do to get to $100,000? They're not directly related to to income. They're not doing sales for the company. So, how is the boss supposed to answer develop software developers? >> Well, so in a book management in in a bookkeeper, for example, a bookkeeper can always say, can I highlight expense reduction? >> Can I highlight where you can raise prices? >> Why not? >> Interesting. software developer. >> A software developer says, "Can I automate today with AI? I I can automate that you can get more productivity out of your customer service people. >> I could use AI, the three steps in production, >> customer service." They could, you know, the funny thing is I'll tell you, it reminds me um my first job at American Stock Transfer was um my job was to work with, it was funny, I worked with a guy name IRA Faros. He was a non-observant Jew, but a Hungarian. >> What's his first name? >> Ira. >> Ira Faros. is >> right. He was Hungarian Imra. >> Ira Farage, Hungarian Jew and um not not religious but obviously knew everything. Lived somewhere in Jersey. >> Okay. >> The most bitter person you ever met in your life. It was miserable sitting next to him every single day. >> Um but my our job was to maintain shareholder records. That was my job. We got a a print out of these old green and white pieces with the frrigy. People don't even know what that is anymore with the stuff on the side. And it came off the old he had the holes came these old computers printers >> and I remember going to the car phone calls and saying I want to eliminate my job. >> I was literally taking something off this green and white piece of paper writing it into a black book and that's how they were maintaining shareholder records. I said it's 1996 1997 literally we could automate this whole thing and I and I show them I literally eliminated my job. Now wasn't so smart you would say but David was sure your guy did but it was it was dumb work. Like it was literally it was it was stupidity. You have opportunities. There's always opportunities. And a boss will always welcome that question. And you can >> what can I do to be more val? >> What can I do? And by the way, you can also say to the boss, you might not have the answer today, but know that I'm open anytime you have that answer. Make yourself available to be the guy, to be someone who your boss says oral, >> of course, or gal. Um there's some if you're able to present that way that your boss knows that you can step up and you're willing to step up today. It's it's so much easier to step up. There are tools to learn. Meaning I'm 51. The amount of value I get out of chatbt and Claude and Gemini is incredible. It's it's incredible. There is so much that you can ask. I was on a conversation earlier today and um I asked this person. I said I gave I gave her tasks to come back and explain something to me and she goes, "Okay, I'll write it out for you." I said, "No, write it out in your own words and then go to Claude or use any AI tool that you want and say, I've now been asked by my colleague these questions, refine it so I don't sound like myself, but rather the way it's going to land in the way they might be interested in hearing it." Because a lot of times the words that we say, they don't land the way that we intend them to. And now we have tools to go in and say, "How is this going to be received? How do I refine it? How do I sign? How do I sound? Do I sound whiny? Do I sound um um entitled?" Fascinating. And you could ask that if I'm asking for a raise, you can go to your chat GBT or your Claude and say, "I want to go into my boss and ask him this question, but I want to come across grateful, humble, ambitious, willing to step up, >> right? >> Not entitled, not for you to not not grateful. Help me make sure that this lands the way a boss would see it." >> Wow. >> And then you tell, put in the name of your company, put in the size of your company, put in the personality of your boss. who do that prep work today. Those tools are there, right? Gave us these tools. >> Let's not be stubborn or lazy. Go, use them. >> You ever had an employee that got an offer elsewhere? You gave them a counter and did it work? >> Um, offers elsewhere. Um, >> obviously just more money. Um >> they were happy but they got a good opportunity elsewhere. >> Of course. Of course. Um >> you countered. >> I I I think there are times where when someone gets a job, you're relieved and you go, "Thank you, Hashem, for taking out." >> I'm not talking about those. >> Um when there is a valued employee and and they want to go out. Absolutely. There's um >> they're poached. They didn't want to leave. [clears throat] >> So there was Yeah. So >> show them a bag of money. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, there's a fellow I'm thinking about exactly right now. Really a good man, and he got offered more money. Um, [clears throat] I was disappointed when I got that phone call. I know exactly where I was. Um, but I think there was also I I I met with him two weeks later. I offered him a lot more money to stay. Um, >> and did he stay? He did not stay. In my mind, it was very clear to me. I'm making one offer and if he and I see that his mind, his heart is no longer there, out goodbye. >> Did you match? >> I gave more. I gave more than what he told me the match was cuz I didn't want disruption in my business. >> Um, but >> why did he decline? >> Um, I I think it was time that he wanted a change. >> I [clears throat] think it was part money and I think part change. Um, but also remember when someone gets an offer, 90% of the time when they tell that to you, their mind is already out the door, >> right? >> They're already done. They're gone, >> right? >> So to try to keep them there, they >> there's no point. >> There's really no point. It's going to come back within six months or out the door. >> Wow. >> Um, it's actually is a great friend of mine today, Maurice Gonzalez. He was my lead engineer at Czechall for many, many years, for 10 years, and we're very, very close. And he got a job opportunity to go work at Payy and he called me up. He goes, "Hey, bro." You know, that's the way he spoke to me. Hey, bro. still tells me that bro, hey bro, I got this opportunity. I go, Maurice, I love you forever. Go. We're still going to hang out and we get together whenever I go down to Miami and he's doing really well there. So just you have to to know where you're holding where they're holding and uh Hashem takes care of it. You keeping people when they don't want to be there is also not a good idea. >> Um, as we're getting to the end of the podcast, >> is there a question you always ask in an interview that nobody expects? Um, it's very individual. >> It's a really, yeah, I, you know, I dislike those questions. You know, I remember sitting in a meeting with a marketing company was trying to pitch me a business and he looked at me, my son Ellie was in the meeting and he said to me afterwards, he goes, "This question was not going to sit with you." Like this, like the silly marketing questions, they're really, they're stupid. Hey, Shai, if you were a car, what car do you think you'd be? like if you were an animal, what animal do you think you'd be? And I remember like someone asked me that question. I go, well um um if you look in the ethics of the fathers, we compare our Jews that we should have attributes to multiple animals. Like it's just so silly. Um but uh and when it came to the car question, I go, you didn't just ask me that question. So I don't ask questions like that. >> Was there a question in an interview that you you feel has been pretty telling for you? Um, again, it depend. It depends on the role. I love to ask sales people where they won, where they lost, and what they did after they lost or after they won. You, for example, you have guys who they win and they go, I nailed my quota. Like, I'm good. >> Bought a Rolex, >> right? I don't, by the way, knock yourself out by 10. I don't care what you do. I just want to know you're coming to work the next day and hustling the same way. You know that I don't I don't care. I don't care what you do with that. I I just want I I want that ambition. Um I I interviews have to be connecting. Interviews have to be also like I'm a big loyalist. So I I I want to know are we going to work together? Meaning because not everything goes like this. Things are going to be complicated. How are you going to be in the trenches? How you going to be if if you A lot of times I ask a question. And I go, "Look, if if you're going to a meeting and we're having a conversation and I'm I'm guiding you into how to approach it, you know, and you tell me and you go, "Well, here's this prospect." And I go, "This is the way I think you should go nail it." And and you don't and you lose. And then we go ahead and we review the meeting together. How you going to take it? How are you in accepting feedback? It's a big one. Accepting feedback for salespeople is very, very hard. I don't want to sell. I don't want to sell. You're telling me how to go sell? what you what are you doing? A lot of people are not accepted to feedback. So that's a big question. Are you open to feedback? I put the conversation dialogue. If if I go ahead and I ask you, this is a big one. People didn't like this a lot when when they worked with me. I used to say to them, you know, I like to be copied on some of the emails because number one, I wanted to see response times of my operation. When Seth and I ran the business, Seth and I were copied on 90% of the production work of the emails going back and forth. There were two big benefits to it for us. Number one, we wanted to see how quickly the team got back. Wanted to see the flow of of work product. [snorts] Two, from a sales standpoint, I wanted to see who else was copied on the email to see the sphere of influence on that transaction. Because if I'm selling to the CFO of a public company, but suddenly there are nine people copied on that email. Well, be curious. Who are those nine people? Is it the controller? Is it an outside counsel? Two outside attorneys, three CPAs, a banker, >> a sphere of influence. and I wanted to go do that. Some people came in, they go, "We don't want to copy you." And and suddenly you're like, "Well, why not?" Well, you're micromanaging me. No, let me explain this to you. I don't want to micromanage you. I want to grow my business. And here is the way I'm able to connect dots. So, people, you have to know why people are certain ways. Um, and I try to ask those kinds of questions. But there people aren't complicated. We're all complicated, right? >> It's dynamics. So, you need sataya in every step of the way. For my last question as we finish off the podcast, you you you're a born and bred salesperson. You've been doing sales your whole life. You're really good at it. A lot of people who would be phenomenal at sales when they're starting their careers don't want to do it for some reason. They're very nervous. Any tips for people to try sales well and see if it's for them? >> Love the question. Totally love the question. Meaning finally a good question. I I really No, I I I love the question. Number one, have no fear. Whoever you're talking to is just a person. Number one, they're probably not even as smart as you are, and they're in a job. It's there. They're just humans. They're not going to bite your head off. They're not going to hurt you. Again, they're just tools. You want a relationship. You want to cultivate relationships. You want to talk about things that are similar interests. So, number one, have no fear. Fear is just it's it's it's imagination. you know, Nissan Cavin, you know, he has a great var. He says, "Call him." He goes, "What does that mean?" What it means is is that when you walk down the street, you're walking only in the like the dollar am that you're walking. You're walking. It's really a narrow bridge what you're working on. So, why are you not afraid you're going to fall off? The difference between a gest because you don't see anything on the other side and you might fall off. But the MS is you're not walking any wider. >> It's perception. >> It's perception. So, number one, perceive. They're just buyers and they're not going to they can't do anything to you. number one. So, take >> Did you never have fear? >> I have no fear. I never had fear. I never had fear. Um I >> Have you hired salespeople that did have fear? >> Of course. Um >> and how'd you get it out of them? >> Don't know that I did, but I pushed them and they had to push themselves, but I I I've been blessed that the fear is not >> Did it ever backfire or you knew how to balance the like not becoming disrespectful or too pushy >> in me in sales? I have a I have a couple good stories on that. Um, and yeah, of course, there are times where you make a mistake. You might push the wrong button, you might call an extra time, you might catch the guy at the wrong time. It doesn't mean that you should stop and now there are there are protocols in in how to do things professionally. Um, and you have to know how to go do that. For example, you call somebody in the middle of the day and they answer the phone. Well, first thing is, did I catch you at a good time? Did I catch you at a good time? >> It's never a good time though if you're doing a cold. >> Well, hold But but that's true. But you ask the question because by asking the questions, you honor the person you called. Did I catch you at a good time? Then they have an opportunity to say yes. Goodbye. No problem. I'll send you an email. Try to find the time. If they say if they say you caught them at a bad time, then stop talking. >> Right? >> If they say, I'll give you two minutes. That's very kind to you. Two minutes, we go from there. I'll send you a follow-up email. Or I could tell even a lot of times I'll say, I give you two minutes. I could tell you're busy. Is it okay if I shoot you an email? I'll call you in three days. Be respectful always with elegance. I think that's a very very very important tool. Look, sales is hard. Sales and cultivating relationships is hard. It comes with a lot a lot of rejection. You know, the numbers don't typically work for salespeople that they're going to knock it out of the ballpark. They're outbound sales. There's inbound sales. There's cultivating relationships. There's SDRs. all these different components but working on your skills and not having having fear in life won't get you anywhere. Having fear won't let you be successful in marriage and raising children and learning Torah law everything is inal. So having fear you know also who are you afraid of you know Hashem Hashem is very clear have no fear of humans. So again, they're just people. They're they're not the source of your just for the neighbors to give you, but a lot of a lot of what we do as from business people is all number one, it's all sourced inal. Everything is sourced in. And the more you learn it and the more you put inside, the more you ingest it, then you keep on practicing it and you go, "Okay, I'm going to get rejected. My job is to keep on going." Hashem is the one who decides when. And by the way, the guy who rejects you can literally call you up within a split second and say, "By the way, I think I made the wrong decision. I want to go with you. I >> just [laughter] just our job is to keep on going. Just go and go and smile and be a good energy." Be a good energy. >> All right, Shai, as we finish the podcast, take the opportunity to plug yourself that camera. Uh how can how can you help others that right here? >> Oh, over here. Hi. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Plug yourself. >> You can find me easily on LinkedIn. My cell phone number is 917-5793107. My email is eststeravi.co. If I could help you in any way, um, it'll be an honor. And please take a look at what we're doing at Kotabi. I think it's rather special. Thank you. >> Also connect with him on LinkedIn. >> Please do. What a great episode. Thank you. >> Thank you for having me. [music]