The Miscarriage No One Talks About | With Yonina Kaufman

But when it comes to pregnancy loss, >> yeah, >> right, there's no Shiva. >> No, >> there's no space. I'm supposed to have a baby at this time, >> right? And I don't have that. >> And so grieving, what does it mean to grieve? What does it mean to sit in pain? When, you know, when there's IVF transfer failures, >> right? >> And there are women who go through multiple pregnancy losses, it's called recurrent pregnancy losses, >> right? And so what keeps them going? Hope. >> Yeah. >> Okay. There's no timeline when it comes to grief. There's no like, okay, you grieve for 6 months. Now you're supposed to be done and supposed to be over it and working through it. We don't get over it, right? >> We don't get under it. Kids are very little. So when we say the baby went to sleep, >> right? They're going to be like, "When's the baby waking up?" Or, "The baby went to shmayam." Okay, when's the baby coming down? >> It's not only the woman herself is grieving. It's affecting an entire family. Okay. Today we're going to discuss a subject of when joy turns into sadness. We're talking about pregnancy loss. Uh joining us today uh is Yonina Kaufman, a licensed clinical social worker who uh specializes in helping women and families navigating pregnancy loss, infant loss, uh fertility struggles, and the emotional journey that follows. Yonina, welcome to the struggle. >> Thank you so much for bringing me here. >> Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming in. Um, pregnancy loss, um, is probably one of the most painful and silent experiences people go through. Uh, and it's often misunderstood and it's also minimized. Uh, I want to dive into I want to dive deep into grief, the idea what grief is all about, the the entire subject of grief. uh from your experience um how deep does grief really go? >> The depth of grief uh is so individualized. Okay. Uh when a woman gets pregnant, right? Right. >> Uh the hopes, the dreams uh you know, her entire uh thought process shifts by virtue of knowing that she's going to have a baby. And when that loss happens, when that pregnancy ends, right, it's not just the grieving of something. It's not tangible, right? It's not something we don't have a mourning ritual for when it comes to pregnancy and infant loss, right? There's nothing. There's no memories that we were able to create about that person who lived, right? And so there's something it's what we call as an ambiguous loss. It's not it's not the actual person that died. It's the hopes and the dreams that a person that the that the family that the woman had anticipated when when wanting to have this baby >> and sometimes they even have the name of the baby. They they see they have their own name. They see >> going forward. >> Yeah. They they they're not just they they're they're dreaming already about walking their their daughter down the aisle at the at their kafa. They're dreaming about what's going to be and then all of a sudden that's t that dream is taken away. >> Correct. >> Right. And so we're not just grieving the actual loss. Right. What we call a secondary loss. It's like that the ripple effects. Uh people like you said it's a little bit it's it's what we call as a disenfranchised grief, right? Because nobody really knew, right? Nobody really understands. Nobody really. So keep in mind, especially from a cultural perspective, right? Depending on what, you know, what part of the gestation of the pregnancy they were in, right? We don't necessarily go around talking about this. >> So some people uh suffer from this in silence because nobody even knows that that person just lost a uh tremendous vision and a dream and a future. It was all colorful and they had it all on paper. >> They had it all in their heads, in their minds, and their hearts. So it's sort of like that attachment, right? You grow attached to this pregnancy, this sense of identity, >> right? Think about how a woman feels when she when the pregnancy ends, right? Am I a mother, >> right? I I was pregnant, but I don't have an actual baby. My body, right? It didn't do what it's supposed to do, >> right? That sense of shame, right? There's and that internalized shame because if we're not talking about it externally, right? Who can we share this with? >> Right. >> Right. people a woman called recently and she says I walk around nobody knows that I'm carrying all this and this is months later so this isn't just grief in the immediate aspect of the loss right when we keep going right there's this sense of but I was supposed to be pregnant at this time or I'm I'm supposed to have a baby at this time right and I don't have that and so grieving what does it mean to grieve what does it mean to sit in pain? What does it mean to sit in a space where feelings come up? I think that that's what you asked like what does that mean to really grieve this type of loss? >> Now, let me ask you something. Is this grieving any more unique or different than other different type of grievings? Because the way I understand it from you and tell me if I'm correct is all types of grieving coming from the fact that we have a vision and a dream and we so much wanted something and then the reality kicks in and you have to deal with this. You have to sit with this. We'll talk about this. How a person can digest this this grief? How can a person you know find meaning in it or somehow um is this different? Is it more profound? >> So again, it grief in general, right? Where grief is is coming up a lot and it's becoming a word that we're really recognizing. Uh you know, there's a term I sat with my anger long enough until I realized that it was grief, right? When we're when we're when we're sitting in a space where there's something that's lost that we're lacking. And there really is a sense of like a love, >> right? We have nowhere to put it. >> There's nowhere to give that love. And so we're sitting in this grief of like now where am I? What am I? Who am I? >> Right? And so sitting in this p in this space of grief when it comes to pregnancy loss, it's unique for a couple of parts to it because first of all, we don't talk enough about it. >> As much as we are in 2026 and as much as we're trying to break down barriers around pregnancy loss, it's still a taboo topic, right? There's that sense of like, well, at least, right? or that sense of like, you know, at least you can get pregnant or that shame of like or just get over it. We're very uh a n a a nation, a culture, a a community that says, okay, you had a loss, now move on. And when it comes to grief, we don't move on from grief. >> You don't just like get over the loss of a baby. >> It's a process. >> It's a journey. It's a process. We to you know I don't say this is not something like we learn how to like create a life around that grief we learn how to carry it in a way that it doesn't feel so heavy >> right but there is a difference from grief and anger right because after after an episode like this sometimes people build up this this this anger and sometimes they're angry at Hashem and sometimes they're angry at themselves and sometimes they're angry at the doctor but grief for something else. >> So if you look underneath it, right, if that's the external uh emotive emotion, right, we have to really understand what's that anger really coming from. The anger, if you literally delve a little bit deeper, right? If you want to unpack where that anger is coming from, it's grief, right? It's that sense of something that is so out of your control, >> right? >> It's something that it was so nobody asks for this. Nobody anticipated this. Nobody uh you know wondered how you know if this was something that that they were going to ever have to go through and then it happens, >> right? It's that sense of also if you think about it like especially if this is the first loss that a person went through that a woman went through, right? It's that it shifts your entire thought process, right? It's something you never even anticipated. It's not something you even like could even fathom would happen to you. Who goes there? Who wants to think about it? >> We don't. We don't. Our our brain doesn't naturally go there. >> And so when it happens, right, that sense of innocence, that sense of euphoria of that knowledge that you're going to have a baby, it gets taken away. >> Yeah. >> And so we're angry because it's it was taken away from us. >> We were looking forward to something. >> Something something huge, something meaningful. >> Huge. It's not huge, meaningful. Culturally, this is something that >> it just overtakes your your your entire mind and body and soul. >> Right. Right. >> Now, what we're talking about is we're talking about mid pregnancy, early pregnancy is is what you're describing in early pregnancy the same or no? >> So, yeah, you know, we can't So, there's no rule book on what on who can grieve and who should be grieving more, right? Uh we find that depending on what this person and couple's experience, what their attachment was, whatever it was that they were thinking and feeling and and anticipating when it comes to this pregnancy, right? The grief isn't any more or less based on the gestation. Uh there's different aspects to it. There's different procedures that are done. And there's different physiological, right, biological responses to a later uh a later stillborn baby when we're dealing with that versus uh an earlier uh loss. >> But the grief uh we don't differentiate uh you know, you should be grieving. We don't say the word should, right? There's no there's no rule book on this. And I want you to know, by the way, that grief, >> it's not linear, right? There's no like we go through the stages, we go through the steps of grief and then we're over it, right? Uh this is it comes in waves, it comes in shifts, it comes in so many different um different times that'll come up for us. Even if the woman experienced an earlier loss, different times that trigger that emotional uh response is very similar that than a woman who had a later loss. >> And I was going to ask you also if let's say a woman is overcoming, you know, she's sitting with the pain and she's accepting it and she's surrendering and she's like it, you know, that she's she's she's moving on and she's building a family and she has other children. um is it ever coming back like after a couple of years or after a while that you talk you're over it and then it c it comes back again. >> So that's the aspect of the fact that grief doesn't go away. >> Right. >> Right. We don't get over grief. The bottom line is is that we learn how to integrate our lives. And so when something comes up, right, years later, we'll have women who will say to me, I I I thought I was okay. >> Yeah. >> I thought I was fine. And then all of a sudden, I don't know, somebody was is making a daughter was supposed to be that age. Or somebody's making a bar matzvah and my son I was supposed to have a son around the same time. >> And that that's a trigger. And that's >> and that's a trigger. And that's a space that we have to honor. >> It's unbelievable. Um, I want to talk about expectations. Expectations in people's lives is what's most of the time not a positive. It's a killer. Because if you have expectations and and high expectations for from another person or in a relationship, wherever you'd go, there's expectations is not uh the best place to have. It's better to have low expectations or zero expectations. So whatever you have is a tremendous gift and you're like living in a different world. Is it fair to say that in when a a woman becomes pregnant, she's so happy and she's so excited. Is this the right language to use to lower an expectation as far as you know just for the grief for the disappointment to be so painful? our brain naturally, right? We're humans and to naturally expect that we're going to have a healthy pregnancy, right? >> To naturally expect that we're going to have a healthy baby, right? That is sort of what we're primed to do, right? >> It gives you a drive to go and to look forward and to uh it's the gas to move forward. I mean, why would you want to think negative? But what I'm trying to say is that I know that expectations is the killer because you have this high expectations and I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the idea how this grief uh you know how can someone deal with this going in, you know, I'm surrendering to Hashem. This is this is this is a gift that Hashem gave me. It's going to be good, you know, and and and you know, coming out of it with such high expectations and thinking and with all the bells and whistles, you know, is is that is that where people are losing a little bit? That's where that's where the pain is. >> Death is a natural human occurrence, >> right? >> Loss is a natural human occurrence. Hope is a natural human experience. Dreams, expectations are natural human experiences. Right? If we hold on to this like hesitation of like something can happen, it's not going to protect us from the actual loss. >> Mhm. >> Right. We're going to have to go through the journey of grieving and the loss no matter how much we prepare ourselves. So, what you're saying is you might as well be happy and positive and have beautiful dreams and just see it already like almost manifesting what you see. >> That being said, I do want to hold space for people who are anxious about what could possibly happen. Right. >> Right. >> And do a lot of people have that? Do you hear that people are going around a little bit nervous? uh you know it's a sometimes you shouldn't even go that route because you're almost asking for something you know your mind is a very strong uh you know you're like asking for something like a manifestation so if there are people who are positive we know it's going to be good they're already seeing it >> you know the the the concept of attachment let's say I'm going to start with that for a second the aspect of attachment when it comes to the the the mother child bond. >> Yeah. >> Okay. It starts in uterero. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> So, how does this what does it mean? Right. When it you know it when a baby is born, >> right? So, you'll have women who will say and I want to just hold space for all of it. Right. You know, I this bond that they felt this connection that they felt when the baby was born. It was this is what they waited nine months for. They they talked to the baby. They they they listened to the baby. They felt the baby. this was their exactly what they were anticipating and waiting for. Right? That being said, there are women who go through that they don't have that same connection and that same bond. And there is work that we do uh postpartum that we create that because that's our natural >> human response when a woman has a baby. >> Right. >> Right. Is to is that bond is that attachment and it starts in uterero. And we want that, right? We want a healthy relationship. You want healthy attachments that a mother can have with her child, right? And so there is a sense of especially when it comes to pregnancy after loss. I want to hold space for that. Right? Because now a woman knows she knows what the ine what the potential could be, right? And so we end up seeing that that not wanting to bond that not wanting to bond with the pregnancy, not wanting to bond with that connection because there is fear of the unknown. there is a chance where it may not turn into a viable pregnancy and that's sad and it's hard and it hurts and we're really aware of the fact that there's pain that could potentially happen by not by having a pregnancy loss and so we sort of in our way in our brain does prepare us it does do the work of saying okay I'm not going to get too close right because there isn't a chance of this happening right and our brain does exactly what it's supposed to do to protect ourselves, >> right? We're doing we know exactly, right? We're primed for it because when we feel like we're in danger because that's what pregnancy loss does to us, right? It took away our security. Took away that safety of something that we were we were raised to know happens. We were raised to know that this is what happens. You get pregnant, you have a healthy baby and right after, right? And happily, okay? Right. And deal and and then real life happens, right? And so, Right. And we're aware of that. That being said, it's not as common as pregnancy loss is, right? If we're looking from a cultural surrounding us, right, we don't know how many of these women that are around us had pregnancy losses. >> And so, we see healthy babies and we see what we're going through. And it's that anxiety of the unknown, anxiety of what could be, right, that keeps us a little bit detached. All right? And so we actually do work with women to sort of center them a little bit to sort of like remind them that they are safe and yes a really sad thing happened and there are women who go through multiple pregnancy losses. It's called recurrent pregnancy losses >> right and so what keeps them going? >> Wow. >> Hope. >> Yeah. >> Hope that maybe this time it will be different. And that's the expectation. That's the healthy space that we are worthy of holding on to that hope that I'm going to have a healthy baby while also holding on to that space of something can happen. >> We're not in control >> that we're not in control. Now you're saying something very interesting and this is so true in relationships as well that if a person um doesn't is afraid that they'll be you know uh they'll that they're afraid to go into the relationship because they're afraid they'll be rejected. So they're missing out of a beautiful life. They're missing out a part of life which is opening up and giving up yourself. They're shutting down because they're they got so they were so disappointed from before that they're not not letting you in. And what you're saying is a mother over here if she's not going to dream and she's not going to have hope this relationship that you're supposed to build even when the child is is is you know while she's pregnant is important. That's how that's how the development that's how it starts. >> I want to hold space for everyone. Okay. Uh fear, pain, uh these are very real and these are very valid and self-care, >> right, >> is very critical when it comes to sitting in this space. >> What does self-care mean? I mean, when you say uh self-care, >> so let's start with what it actually means to grieve, right? When we when we recognize, right? uh you made a comment about you know allowing things to be. So when we can actually allow one of our biggest fears, okay, is the fear of hurting, right? We we we there's a thought process where I just can't even go there. I can't feel it's too much. It's too heavy. It's too overwhelming. I'm not going to get over this. If I allow myself to sit in this pain, >> it's going to take over. Right? And the bottom line is though from a physiological aspect as well as an emotional some of the concepts of knowing that feelings come and go. They're real. They're valid. Right? But when we actually allow them to be in existence, they don't last forever. But inevitably what happens is that if we don't allow feelings to come, if we don't acknowledge, if we don't recognize what's coming up for us and we suppress it, right? We say, "We're not going there. I'm not going to give our myself that permission." Right? Where does it go? >> Right? It becomes it comes internally, right? We start to feel it in our bodies. We start to feel it in our head, our jaw, our our stomachs, the irritability, the anger, the frustrations, the just that hyper arousal, that feeling of sense or or dissociation, the hypoarousal, right? That sense of like totally distracted, totally avoiding things, right? And so, we're totally not present. We're not mindful. We're totally just trying to protect ourselves and survive. And that's a natural human response. That being said, when we give ourselves that permission to really feel to sit in that pain, to allow it to be in existence, to label it, acknowledge it, that's self-care. That's saying I am worthy. That's saying I am I am worthy of compassion. I am worthy of empathy. I'm worthy of caring for myself. I'm worthy of saying this hurts and it's hard and it's painful and it's overwhelming at times and what can that mean in in in other aspects? We are other people, right? Some people we need to reach out to the people who want to help us and sometimes they know how to, >> right? >> And sometimes they don't. And so boundaries, right? figuring out what works for us, what doesn't work for us, how it works. Communication, communicating sometimes learning how to even communicate with ourselves, right? We're not born with this vocabulary, right? We're not necessarily, this isn't something we could take out of our back pocket and say, "Okay, this is what this is. This is what's coming up for me." We weren't trained on how to grieve. We weren't trained to learn how how to handle loss, right? But sometimes learning the vocabulary of saying, "I am hurting right now. this is what I need from you. Okay, that's a form of self-care. Or this is what I need for myself. It's coming up. There's something that's coming. It's brewing. It's inside me. I need it. I need to release it in some form or fashion. This is what I need to do in order and that's communicating not only with others with their with meeting your needs externally, but also internally. Now, what what do you say to a woman who uh went through a loss and and she she wants to sit with her pain? She wants to she wants to accept it. She wants to do like you said, self-care, but she's like, "Why me?" You know, this is how do you answer a question like that? Like, uh how do you accept the the life? It's you. It is. It is there, you know. It's it's the acceptance, right? It's it's it's uh of course is that's that's part of the self-care to go out and and and listen to another person who may went who may maybe went through the same thing or people who just want to help there and just want to sit with you. Don't have to say anything. Just want to sit and just want to let you get over it. But um they have the question why, you know, but there's no answer. >> Yeah, >> there's no answer. is just acceptance and surrendering to to Hashem. >> Yeah. And it's hard and we sit with them. And one of the things that you know you brought up and I think that this is also important is because especially when it comes to pregnancy loss, there is a sense of isolation. Right. You feel very alone in this pain by virtue of we're not talking about it. >> Right. >> Right. We don't just sit around and talk about and I think that is changing. >> It is changing. Right. There is a shift in that. That being said, we are really evolving as a community. We are really evolving as a as a society that acknowledges that this is literally something that happens more common than we ever thought. >> Right. So what you're saying is that if if people would know there are dozens and and and hundreds of others who went through the same thing and you normalize this conversation, it becomes a uh a pain of of of not only an isolation, it is a it is pain. It is suffering and it is it is hopes and and dreams that uh did not turn out the way you wanted to be. But if you feel you have people around you, people who went through this, that is going to help a lot. And that's what your mission is, what you want to bring out to the public, and you want this to become a discussion and not to be so uh, you know, not so so afraid to talk about it and and and and get together and let people know that uh people have each other's back. This is part of life and uh we'll help you get through it. I I don't think I can minimize how much uh peer support understanding and recognizing as lonely as this feels, we are not alone. There are organizations that are coming up that are literally because we know >> wow >> we know that this is something that is so critical to the healing journey, right? knowing that there are people out there. We we do peer supports. We have phone supports. We have uh packages that are sent to women when after their loss. We do we send doulas. We send uh to help women who are delivering stillborn babies. We are doing anything and everything. >> This is which organization is that? >> This is a time >> this is aime hug. I work I work I'm the clinical director for time hug. >> Time hug. >> Uh who >> because does fertility right? We have a few uh a few different divisions. And this one is called A Time Hog. >> And this is under the radar uh little bit. >> It's not under the radar. We're bringing it out. You're bringing it out there. >> Yeah. And this is for that people should know there is some place to turn. >> There is a place to turn. And I want you to know, by the way, um I you know, we talked about pregnancy loss. We talked about stillborn babies, but bringing in there's even, you know, when there's IVF transfer failures, >> right? >> Right. This is also some kind of it it borders with loss and and disappointment and also shame >> and feeling that your body is not doing its job and everybody's okay and you're not okay. >> So that's a a world for itself that needs a ton of support. >> Yeah. >> And what kind of effect does that have on on let's say there's a couple over here and then what what effect does that have on scholas? like you come home and frustrated and and and you how does that work? >> So, here's the bottom line. Again, there's no rule book how to grieve. Okay? Uh we there is a certain s um if we're going to like break down grief in terms of there's a there's a intuitive grief and then there's what we call as instrumental grief, right? We often times, again, we're not going to be gender specific, uh, but we do often see women who are more intuitive, right? They're they're in tune with their with their emotions. They're communicative. They're expressive, right? Where we might see someone more often, we'll, let's say, see this in men where they're more instrumental, right? >> Get over it. It's done. >> They just want to be done with that pain. They'll they'll put it into doing things, right? They'll they'll they'll work out on they'll work. They'll they'll go to work. they'll work on things, they'll be productive, right? It doesn't mean that both of them are not grieving, >> right? >> Right. It's just a matter of how it manifests. And so, conversations are critical, especially when it comes to a couple, right? Uh he may not understand what she's going through. I really want to re-emphasize that again, a woman who's pregnant, right, she was literally physically holding that baby. Um and so there are going to be um additional aspects to this grief that he may not be uh even acknowledging that the experience and that being said it doesn't mean that he doesn't also he wants to he wants to hold her pain >> right he has to be the stoic one often right and so that comes in I can't be expressive because she's hurting >> right and so again it's a it's a journey right it's a a journey of sitting of communicating ating of understanding of right it may not be I know exactly right when empathy again nobody there's nothing broken >> right >> nobody's broken there's nothing to fix when it comes to grief okay there's no timeline when it comes to grief there's no like okay you grieve for 6 months now you're supposed to be done and supposed to be over it that's not the way it works and so when we can sit and acknowledge that this is something that is real. It's valid. We need empathy. >> We need a sense to just be seen. We don't need, you said it before, right? Just to be there with someone, >> right? When somebody can sit in that space and hold space that we say use this term, right? It's a right that whole term of what does it mean to hold space. It means that when a person knows that they don't have to monitor what they're saying, they're not going to be shamed, they're not going to feel bad, they're not going to be made to feel guilty for how they're thinking and feeling. Right? When we can put it out there, when we can give it the space that it's worthy of being, right? Again, it doesn't have to be internalized. It doesn't have to literally work its way through our bodies, >> right? Impacting us physically, emotionally, psychologically. When we can feel safe >> in that space, >> it's the pain is there, the grief is there, the loss happened. We're not we're not pretending >> anything. Yeah. >> We're not changing. >> What we're doing is that we're letting it out a little bit. We're letting it go and working through it. We don't get over it, right? >> We don't get under it. >> We literally walk and we navigate through the grieving journey. >> So, what mistakes are husbands making when they are telling their wife certain statements and certain when they go through this? What should husbands know? >> So, husbands have to know that number one, there are there's no timeline to this. >> Right. >> Right. to that >> about this idea that uh time heals. >> So time it's more about women if it's even true I don't know it's just a statement that people like to use. So you brought up an interesting right you said before when women are feeling it later years later right >> the recognition is it's real and it's valid often though what we feel what we see is that if it wasn't work through if women really didn't do that work of acknowledging the grief right we'll see it years later coming up >> right in different aspects in different ways we'll see it with women it'll be some totally different topic and Then when I sit in the space where I'm working with women and I say, "What's really coming up for you?" And then all of a sudden they'll be like, "I had a baby that died and it wasn't even part of their thought process, >> right?" And so when we don't give that space to acknowledge and work through that, right, it becomes internally, right? It becomes somatic, >> right? Our body literally uh learns and our our brains are rewiring of our brain. By the way, our brain this is trauma. >> Yeah. >> This is a traumatic experience. >> So, so you would say that uh psychologically if a person um almost can feel the future, you know, they have this vision and they like almost feel it um and that disappears. That dream disappears. You call this trauma. >> This is a traumatic. Sure. This is a tra it rewires our brain, our sense of safety, our sense of security, our identity. Uh, it could be medical trauma, right? A woman is in an office and she hears that there's no heartbeat. You go into an office, right? A woman has a has a miscarriage in her bathroom. A woman has a stillborn baby. She doesn't even know that there was something wrong with the baby and or she finds out the day before. This alters our brain chemistry. >> So, you've seen women who change completely after an experience like that. >> It's very circumstantial, right? If we're going to differentiate when we look at grief, by the way, right? Uh, in in comparison, right? we're going to look at depression or depressive uh there is a m there is a uh a chance of that happening. There is PTSD that can happen. There is anxiety that can result from this. >> Okay. But understanding and recognizing we do not pathize grief. >> Right. >> Right. There's no pathology here to understand the loss of a baby. Right. And also keep in mind right we talked about gestation. Right. When a woman has carried a baby longer, right? Some women they hold their babies, right? When after when they deliver a a a a fully formed baby, they're holding a dead baby, >> right? Some women choose not to. There is a burial that goes on, we name a baby, >> right? A name that let's say, you know, culturally for in the in the in the Jewish community, a name that we wouldn't necessarily ever name, >> right? But there is a there is a a baby that was that died. >> Right. >> Right. And so, you know, understanding that this is real. >> Yeah. >> Right. And recognizing that this loss is real, right? It's not ambiguous. It's not like a it's not something that's not something that that is not worthy of being acknowledged. And so, you asked about quickly just about the husbands. Yeah. Right? He's not fixing this. >> No. >> Right? And so sitting in that space of saying, "I'm here with you." Right. Sometimes women don't know. They don't know what they need. And so the husband will say, "Tell me what you need." >> Right. >> Right. And >> they're not in a place to articulate right now exactly what they need. >> Right. We're putting them in thinking mode when they're right now in survival mode. >> Correct. >> And so again, there's organizations that are out there. There are support groups, there are hotlines, there are people there to help you, to support you while you're helping and supporting your wife. And so you're not alone. >> Excellent. Um I talking about support and I want to understand what healthy support looks like. Um, some suffer in silence because nobody knew. It was not the time yet. And some people knew the in-laws, families. So, do you see in-laws getting involved, you know, mother-in-laws, fathers, everybody putting in their two cents and not understanding what what's going on and how to support? You have any advice of in-laws how to to is it sometimes it's better to be quiet, you be silent or say something and make the person feel good or it looks like the elephant in the room. Nobody everyone knows but nobody says anything. >> It's so personalized and so personal. Um that being said, we do have a few, you know, concepts that we do like to tell in-laws, parents. Um first of all, I do I want to acknowledge, especially when it comes to mothers or mother-in-laws, um the secondary uh grief to this, right? They're not only grieving for their grandchild, right, that this that that this loss resulted in. They're also grieving watching their children hurting. So you're saying there's not only the woman herself is grieving, there's a mother-in-law grieving and there's a there's the mother of the of the daughter grieving. It's affecting an entire family. >> It could it could very well. And so we do tell our the mother-in-laws and we do tell the mothers take care of yourself. Reach out to your support system. Reach out to your people. Mhm. >> That being said, take care of do not let that impact your ability to have empathy, right, for the for the for your daughter, right? Uh your daughter needs you, your daughter-in-law needs, your son needs you. >> They need that space. They need that respect. They need uh picking up on their cues, right? Following them. You may not agree with it. You may have had different experiences when it came to your own losses, right? To project onto them what you feel is right. You want to be careful with that, >> right? Because it's it's a lot and we don't minimize >> and yet understanding being able to step back and being able to do that work, which is a lot. I don't minimize that for anyone. But being able to tap in and say, "This is not about me right now. I have to be mindful. I have to be present for this couple cuz they're really they're going through this right now. I'll I'll find a different time for me, >> right? >> But they're worthy of empathy. They're worthy of of I can respect, right? If it depends if the family's if the family doesn't know if the if the if the couple asks that they not share. So remember that's also a disenfranchised grief, right? Because they're holding on to something that they can't share with the rest of the family. And we have to respect that. And we have to hold that with them, >> right? >> Because that's this is their story. This is their narrative. And they get to choose how they're going to grieve and how they're going to navigate this journey. And we have to be there with them. >> Yeah. Do you ever find that uh women um instead of dealing with the grief the way you describe it, they become frozen? they become cold. They don't want to think about it. They don't want to deal with this. >> But is is this a destructive way of dealing with this? >> So, we call it what we call um just to go there's there's hyper arisal, right? When we're like literally in fight orflight mode, right? We're just in survival mode, right? We're uh we're literally, you know, we're anxious, we're we're we're we're irritable, we're we're on it, we're just >> trying to survive. Um and then we have what's called as hypoarousal, right? that's dissociated that freeze mode. Right. >> Right. Again, it's our natural instinct to protect ourselves. >> Correct. >> Okay. Uh that being said, right, we want to get into like this like window of tolerance as we say, right? It two extremes can navigate and manifest in different ways. And we want pe we want a woman to navigate this in a way that's healthy for her. Right? I'll have women who will say, "I didn't grieve." Like, "I was okay." >> Right? >> So, I want to be I want to make sure I emphasize that it's okay to be okay. >> That's also okay. >> It's okay. And it's okay not to be o not to be okay. And so, when women will say to me, right, I I I was totally I'm not even present. I'm not even I I don't even feel like myself. I feel like I'm floating. I feel like I I'm totally disassociated. I'm not I'm I'm I'm frozen. Right? And so working with women, helping them sort of like be a little bit more present, be a little bit more mindful, and so to allow those emotions, right? It does. Our brain is a it's a powerful muscle. It does exactly what it needs to do to protect us. >> Yeah. But when a woman tells you she's okay, is she really okay or she's just um using this defense mechanism and not thinking or she has the power to do that? Not everyone has the power. Some ruminate all day and think, but um some do have the power to shut down. It's a little dangerous. >> It depends. I don't want to again there's no rule book on you have to grieve this way. >> Correct. >> There's no rule book that says if you don't grieve this way then you're not grieving the right way. There's no right or wrong >> when it comes to grief. And so if a woman says, "I'm really okay. I did the work or I didn't even I'm not I right when I said about instrumental versus intuitive right there's different ways and each of us have that capacity and so I you know I don't want to we're not pathizing >> right >> right and we don't want to shame right we I >> what you're saying is that if there are people out there who really need help or they're in touch with their feelings and it overtakes them they don't have to do this alone there are people who understand and there are people who are here to hold your hand. >> Yeah. >> Now, I saw one of your uh on your Instagram posts that um I loved, but I want you to elaborate on it. It says, "Start having a relationship with your fear." Like get to know your fear like elaborate on this. I want to understand what this means. People live with fear. You know, sometimes it's not real the fear, but having a relationship with the fear, what how does that help a person? >> Well, when we lean in, right, to knowing that things could go wrong. Uh when we lean in to acknowledging again our natural we want to control as much as we can, right? when especially in a world where there's so much that's out of our control. The uncertainty is what people are afraid of and we love certainty >> right and so if we can right the more we can hold on to something the more the less if we don't try something right the less we have to worry if it's going to fail or not right >> if we don't uh you know that fear holds us because it's sort of something we can control we can control whether we're going to try something or not we can control uh what we want to think or not at times we can right There are there are plenty of times where fear it's real and it's valid. That being said, right? >> Yeah. >> To overcome that, to work through that, to challenge it, >> to recognize what the fear really is, >> to really understand what's holding us back, what that what the if we're going to peel back those layers of what we're afraid of, is it that pain if something doesn't come through? Yeah, it's hard and it hurts and it's a natural response to want to avoid it. That being said, right, there's a dis there is a difference between avoiding and distraction, >> right? And sometimes we do have to distract ourselves from thinking about things from ruminating as you said from, you know, getting stuck in that loop. >> Right. >> Right. When we avoid it, we deny ourselves from living. We deny ourselves from being able to be present and mindful and see what's right here in front of us. >> We're living in fear. >> So again, we're protecting ourselves. >> Right. >> Right. We're when we're in constant fight or flight, when we're in constant survival mode, when we are in that space where we uh feel like we're, you know, we're constantly in danger, our bodies are primed for it. Right. >> Right. We're always cautious. We're always hesitant. Okay, that being said, when we mindfully can give ourselves that permission to recognize that we're safe, we're not always in danger. We're not always uh we're okay. We're allowed to give our nervous system a little bit of a break, >> right? We're allowed to breathe. We're allowed to experience two emotions at the same time, right? There's a tremendous guilt, right? Let's say especially when it comes to to loss when uh a person let's say laughs or you know experience something joyful amidst their grief. >> Mhm. >> And this is what we call a dual process, right? The dialectical thinking of knowing that we don't always have to it doesn't we don't always have to be in that pain, right? >> It doesn't take away from the loss. It doesn't take away from what you went through. But to but to be in two emotions, we can exist with two emotions at the same time. It doesn't one counteract the other >> and we're and we're worthy of that. We're worthy of experiencing all emotions. And I want you to know, by the way, that there is that sense when we avoid, when we push it down, when we dismiss, when we don't give ourselves the emotion to feel one emotion. Believe it or not, you're not choosing good versus bad. It's not black and white. When you push down one emotion, you're pushing down all feelings and emotions. >> So to be able to be experience all any, right? A woman will say, "I don't feel happy, >> right?" >> Well, we can't feel one emotion and not feel another emotion. They're worthy of being felt and seen and experienced. So, you're saying when uh an opportunity introduces itself to have fun or to go out while you're going through a process, take the opportunity and not don't be afraid to laugh. You're in we know that you're grieving and it's okay and you should, you know, if this is what you need to to get through the day, but allow yourself to to smile and to have fun and, you know, be yourself a little bit also. Is that what you're saying? >> It's a journey. >> Yeah. Uh that also being said, we also do pick and choose. Right. There are times when we're going to pick and choose how to sit with pain. >> Right. >> Right. If you're in the in the grocery store and you're in the sugar aisle, you may choose to say, "This might not be the time for me to be sitting here and crying." >> That doesn't mean you're avoiding. It means you're getting through and then giving yourself that permission at a later time, in a later space. You're allowed to go shopping without breaking down and not feeling guilty about that. >> And also you're allowed to feel and give yourself that permission to feel it at a later time. >> Why the guilt though? Why did the the person that went through a loss feel guilty? Guilty of what? >> So they the guilt the word guilt um is it's a very interesting word, right? When we think that we did something wrong. >> Right. >> Right. Um, >> but over here the what you're saying is that the this woman is blaming herself. >> Sure. Right. Because where can we put that control on to? Right. >> It's like you didn't pull through. That's it. >> My body didn't work. I didn't do what I was supposed to do. >> Whatever the reason is, >> whatever it is, as if we could have controlled it. >> And that is poison is what you're saying. >> So, I like to use the word. Listen, there's a difference between guilt and regret. We can regret it didn't it didn't actualize. >> But regret is also not your fault. Regret is when it's your fault also. No. >> No. When it's not our fault. We didn't do we didn't cause this. >> Correct. >> We didn't ask for this. >> Right. Is this how you get through grief? By recognizing that you're it's not in your control. You are just a person here. You're in Hashem's world. And if you had a baby, it also had nothing to do with you. It's all a gift. So this way, it also has nothing to do with you. Is this a way how a person should think and and trying to get through this? If you're in control, I understand. If you feel that it is you that you must make it happen and you're perfect and you're so good at what you do and you're winning everywhere in life and now you are lost, is it the surrender part that you need to become aware of and understand that literally we are hanging on a thread here and this is all a gift. >> So I think that's where the traumatic piece can also come in. >> Mhm. Right. Where our brain chemistry, right, when we when everything followed through, everything went according to plan, everything went the way it was supposed to. Yeah. Right. Uh and then all of a sudden that was taken away, it rocked our entire foundation, correct? Of understanding. It rocks our entire uh understanding of what was supposed to be. Uh and you know, again, >> living in this space, again, the word acceptance, it's a journey, right? We have to give ourselves that permission >> to feel. >> We do have to give ourselves that permission to recognize that we're going to go through a lot of different thoughts and a lot of different feelings and a lot of different emotions and they all they'll come up. They do in some form or fashion and they're all valid, >> right? And so when we sort of like start to shame ourselves for even thinking this way, >> right? Like I was was thinking that um triggers, we were talking about triggers before. >> Yeah. >> If a trigger hits a person like you said go shopping, they see something or whatever triggers that that how should a person deal with those triggers. >> So again, there's different there's different techniques >> of how to how to reroute your mind, >> right? Uh sometimes it's like uh you know the the veagal you know the vagus nerve is you know is connected to all the organs and so sometimes just like if you're in a space where you could just like splash water on your face right just helps us be a little you know get gets us back grounded. >> Um if you're in the aisle in the grocery store even just some mindful techniques right to be able to ground ourselves right to be able to get our emotions to regulate ourselves. uh you know if we do let's say um some breathing some deep breathing techniques or uh using our five senses just just to like get us back in the present and in the moment so that we can navigate through this. We are worthy of doing that as well. Again, one doesn't counteract the other, right? There is a time and place. You may not want and you may not feel safe enough to be emotional and you may you may you may be vulnerable. You may be in a space where you're like this is where I need to just express and that's okay too. I think that we need to just start to uh create that space uh in terms of understanding that h we're all human. >> Right. >> Right. And emotions are human. Right. There is natural response. And so a lot especially when it comes to when we hear this often right I I I grew up in a home where we didn't talk about our feelings. >> Right. Right. Uh we're talking about feelings now, >> right? >> We're in it. We're here. We're acknowledging that that the loss of a of a pregnancy, the loss of a baby, this is real. It's worthy of being talked about >> and knowing that you're not, like you said, that you're not alone, as lonely as this might feel, >> right? And a lot of times the pain there's there's part one of the pain is the loss and part two of the pain is that um the feelings that come the resentment. You see this person doesn't want to be resentful now. They don't want to be jealous. They come into a place and they're looking at and my my son would have been bit now. You know it bothers them that why am I even in this space? You know why am I even jealous? You know they it bothers them the feeling because what do you have to do with the other person? Why are we comparing each other? You see the the the that's what the this problem is all about. We have to understand how to think how to let that person become an individual so they understand where to put these thoughts. So I want to like normalize that you know we want it's not that we want exactly what they have. It's not that we >> you want it also. >> We want it also. >> That's different than jealousy, right? >> And it's different than resentment, >> right? >> It's just I want it also, >> right? I mean we were raised especially in our culture where babies >> it you're surrounded by it. uh you know we talk about from the fertility world from the pregnancy loss world from you know people who don't know like you know and again just understanding that this space where people are having babies on a constant basis people don't know people are oh are you you know what are you waiting for right the external comments uh you know are you going to have another one not knowing right that space of it's not that they want it's not that they're jealous of what other people have it's they're yearning they're hoping They're they're they're wanting this and it's right and it's real and it's valid and understanding that bottom line is we have no idea what somebody is going through. >> Yeah. >> Right. And being sensitive and being compassionate and just being um knowing that like what we say matters, >> right? >> Uh is important. And also just you talked about resentment and jealousy again it's things that are so out of our control right when we see what's happening to others and we say why not why can't I have that right we don't know it's so much of the unknown that's your grieving >> right >> you're grieving so the things that you can't have or don't have or you're not and you don't know what's going to be >> right >> right we have no idea what's going to be And so sitting here and acknowledging this is hard. It doesn't minimize that we have to take care of ourselves, >> right? >> It doesn't minimize that we have to create a space where we can exist coexist right with two emotions at the same time and experience joy >> and also want and hope and dream. Now, part of the self-care that you spoke about before is we're talking about grieving and that's very important and and it's important to know what it is and how to deal with this. But part of it is also um coming out of this to build yourself up to a certain place with self-confidence, with self-esteem, knowing who you are as a person and understanding life. Is that part of getting over the grief? I mean, moving on. There's grief is while we're in it and we don't have a time limit how long this is going to take. But is there a part of a person coming out of this stronger than before? >> There could be there are people that do make a meaning that make meaning out of it. Um it does build uh certain coping mechanisms. We do have to build certain coping mechanisms. Um it also impacts people emotionally and so there's no shame to people who are struggling with this. Yeah, of course. >> Uh that being said, this is, you know, when life challenges happen, uh I think we could say this across the board is that uh we have to learn new techniques. We have to learn a new sense of self, right? So what we call is integrating, right? We integrate our lives around the grief, >> right? >> Right. So if you think of grief as like taking up a whole jar, >> right? >> Right. And then Right. It's it's very prevalent. It's very there. And then as time as new experiences as uh different things that are c happening or na that we're navigating right we sort of like integrate that grief into the we like weave it into the into the foundations of our lives right so it doesn't go away we don't get over it but we do learn to incorporate it and so people do they do make meaning right they do memorialize they do find ways of connecting uh you know women are are writing books, people are talking about it. There are podcasts, there are organizations, there are uh there are spaces that we're creating knowing that there wasn't it didn't exist before and that it was so necessary and so critical for our healing to uh know that we're not alone in navigating this. And so we are uh there are people who do that. There are people who come out and there is a sense of of connection and also there's also a sense of I see you right when another woman can say to a woman when to when a woman can say to another woman I see you I hear you this is hard I empathize with you I don't know exactly what you're going through no one knows exactly everyone has their own narrative their own story but when I can hear when we can hear I I see you right there's that sense of like that pressure of of of needing to be okay is sort of like rel it's sort of like taken off. We're sort of given permission, >> right? >> And that grace to to feel and it does help inevitably, right? Because >> it helps you grow. But um is your goal at one point in time to get these women out of grief and and start shining again and moving on or your your job is to just sit with the women and give them space for grief and let them have their own journey however long it takes. Is there is there an end goal or this just dissipates automatically? I think it also you know especially when it comes to the work that I do uh in private practice working in the parinatal mental health world um you know grief again there's no timeline and what we often find I'll you know people will say is there like a you know a specific time frame here to how long this is going to last and how much therapy do I need right >> right and I say it's so individualized yeah >> uh and I'll pick up on your cue you get to say right I'm I'm I'm a passenger on your plane you're the driver of this, right? Because this is your life. I'm here with you. I sit here with you. I hold this with you, right? Because you're not meant to hold it alone. And we often find that when we don't carry it so internally, right? That integration, that ability to navigate that the the healing aspect, right? We're not healing. We're not getting over this death. We're not getting over this loss. But we're we do see it. I mean, this is like clinically proven when people uh have good support systems, right? When they uh when they are when their feelings are validated, when they're empathized with, when they have a space to be able to get it out, to be able to release that uh those emotions that are coming up for them, >> it's not they're not as indepth for a prolonged period of time. in that pain >> if if they would do it on their own, >> if they did it on their own. >> Parenting um how does uh parenting look after a loss? I mean, if there's a family with they already have a family with a bunch of kids and here, how does that affect the house after a situation like that? Like let's say the mother is grieving, >> the husband is also grieving. So children just in general, children are very literal, >> right? So if we don't use clear terminology, right, when it comes to explaining what happened, right? Um so let's say that let's say the children knew that the mother was having a baby. >> Okay. >> So So you're a big you're a big proponent of sitting down and explaining the kids in detail. Um what what happened? I'm an advocate of recognizing what the children already know and being very practical and telling them the baby died, >> right? We're very um kids are very little. So when we say the baby went to sleep, >> right? They're going to be like when's the baby waking up or the baby went to shmayam? Okay, when's the baby coming down? Right? And so using very clear language, right? when the mother is grieving again this is a journey right and >> how do the kids process this news >> so sitting when we when we can sit and acknowledge that it's there right children are resilient uh they do right when we give them that permission to feel right when we give them the permission to ask questions when we give them that permission to when we don't shame them we don't pretend we don't not acknowledge it. >> You open the floor >> and we open up the dialogue. Yeah. >> Right. >> They'll ask their questions, right? We'll we'll see when children we'll tell them the baby died and then they like go off to play like okay that's sad. Right. Some people depending on the age depending on the you know right and then they and you're like what do you mean I'm sitting here crying? I'm I'm grieving because that's a that's a kind that's what children are supposed to do. >> Wow. >> Right. But it's very smart because why keep them in the dark? Why let them figure things out on their own? Why do they have a million questions and go to school and talk about stuff and things bother them and they know, they don't know? You're saying just sit down and build this relationship from the beginning like that. You know, have a relationship with your children than a conversation like this. I mean, God forbid, but it should be uh shouldn't be so uncomfortable. So again I want to take into consideration there is cultural sensitivity when it comes to these >> not everybody's going to share this uh they keep a certain distance >> right um >> so what do you think about that I mean you call it cultural but is it healthy is it um it works >> dynamics they work different dynamics work for different people uh there's a t you know there's a lot of you know some families will say we're this is not the way we go and so we don't project >> right >> I don't tell anyone they they have to ask their own. Yeah, >> they have to sit with what they're comfortable with. They have to know. And you know, again, we can understand the psychology, >> right? >> We can understand, but we also take into consideration family dynamics. Um, and we also take into consideration everyone has their own ways of navigating. We're just opening up the floor and we're opening up the dialogue to understand that >> it could be done. >> It could be done. It it could be a way that we can uh create a space that there's no shame to this. Uh there's no uh it's not something to be embarrassed about. You didn't do anything wrong. Uh there's nothing something that we have to hide. >> Right. Matter of fact, and I the way I look at it is you actually build these children on a healthy foundation because you're explaining these children that one, we're not in control. there's Hashem that runs the show and um you prepare him for life because in their life, you know, everybody's, you know, life is life. It catches up to everybody, >> right? >> You know, so it's it's it's it's actually very brave and very important for people to understand that this is a conversation that they may have. >> You know, you use the word brave and I just want to expound on it. Um believe it or not, we use the word, you know, when we talk about being strong. >> Yeah. >> Right. Believe it or it's you're strong when you can actually be vulnerable. >> Right. >> You're brave when you can be v vulnerable. >> Correct. >> Right. It takes a lot more work to open up the dialogue and create a space and to hide away from it, to shy away from it, to to suppress it, even though it takes a lot of energy. By the way, if anyone ever noticed, uh you'll notice even when it comes to healing and it comes to pain, right, there's an exhaustion, right? there's that sense of just, you know, being deflated because it takes a tremendous amount of work. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to navigate this, >> right? >> Okay. >> Um, I was going to ask you about spirituality with the with the with the clients you're dealing with and with with your uh in your organization and stuff like that. Does spirituality play a role >> in in these is do women use it as um they give meaning to it? Some get closer to Hashem, some get you know some get angry. Everybody what do you see in your practice? How how people can integrate spirituality because you know giving meaning to something to pain is always the way out not to hold on to that like we said anger resentment I mean of course we have to let them grief that's part of it you know we s shiva after uh you know this is a system that was put in because you know there's something to it to this grieving >> right so if you think about when it comes to pregnancy loss Yeah. >> Right. There's no Shiva. >> No, >> there's no space. There's no tangible, you know, space to be able to talk about this, right? And so when we So when women talk about how they're angry or that spiritual piece and they'll say, "This was never me. I was I always had a moon. I always had and we say it's okay, >> right? We we don't shame whatever comes up for them." They'll figure out what works for them. people uh there's a lot of emotions that come up and how every each woman and each couple navigate this we'll often find it that you know a woman one one spouse let's say often with women they'll feel a certain you know certain emotions and we'll see that the husbands maybe say you know it it you know everything happens for a reason or you know and there's that dialogue that needs to you know occur where each of them are trying to figure it out >> each of them are trying to navigate this grief this grieving journey in their own way and what works for them. And so opening up that dialogue that says, "Okay, >> you may be thinking one way. Please don't shame me for thinking of what my way and the and vice versa and being able to respect that and be able to hold that space for each of you, right? and understanding that we're all worthy and we all need to navigate this journey in our own ways. And there's again there's no timeline to it. And so, >> right, >> each of us have to be able to work through whatever is coming up for us in our in our own way uh without a timeline without a need to say okay now I you know and or I should be >> right. Right. We don't want to shame. >> Now is ourselves to should. >> That's right. Right. >> Now is the time to sit with your feelings and work through it. >> Exactly. >> Now, what is something you wish every parent who is grieving should know? >> It's okay to not be okay. To know that we are here with you. Uh you're not alone. There is a space that you are worthy of compassion. You are worthy of empathy. You are worthy of knowing that all your feelings are real. They're valid. And we are creating that dialogue. We're opening up this space because this is a real loss and you are worthy of seeking out support. You're worthy of knowing that this is something that doesn't have to be carried alone and that we uh are here with you and and it's hard and it's sad and it's okay. you'll be okay. >> I'm asking for the women, will these thoughts ever go away? The thoughts that come in every day of shame and of uh you know uh guilt and remembering the child they do we integrate it. Sometimes we sometimes it's there. Uh sometimes women, you know, sometimes they whether it be support systems, you know, if they have good family, they just get it off their chest. >> You were saying, you were saying once that you had the story is here. You have to change the relationship with the story. It's the way you look at it, the way uh it's always going to be there, but you have to have a way of how to tell the story and be okay with the story. So, your narrative, your story is worthy of being told, right? Uh who's going to listen? Who's worthy of hearing your story? Right? We always have to pick and choose who's worthy of that. Uh that being said, sometimes we just need to tell it. And that could be externally, right? We could tell it to somebody else or even just writing it down, right? Writing down your narrative, writing down your story. And sometimes when you read it, right, journaling is a really strong um component of healing. Uh first of all, because it's another form of getting it out, >> right? >> Right. We don't have to hold it. Also, if it's a personal journal, uh we, you know, no one's reading it but you, right? So there's no shame. There's no judgment. There's no comments except internally, right? You might shame, right? So sometimes we don't, you know, you may just want to write it down and not even read it. But sometimes you also look at it and say, "Oh, this is really what I was thinking and feeling. Wow, it's real. It's raw. It's it's open." And okay, >> it is okay. >> It's okay. >> What you taught us today is that grief is not something to fix. It's something to walk through and grow from it. And I want to thank you for your meaningful work. I really thank you for coming in today and sharing and and sharing your wisdom with the people and being there and being the right shak for whoever is in need. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you.