Pirkei Avos Deep Dive: Torah’s Take on Living Your Best Life

Hello and welcome to Terra Unbox Deep Dive. I'm here with Rabbi Mendel Groner from Jet and we're ready to go deep. Are you ready? Yeah. Um, so we just did the Picky Alves episode where you reviewed the Picky Alves books. So I think that in this format we'll just uh discuss a little bit more about what Tanbox is and uh then we'll get some a little bit more into Perky as a whole and our own experiences studying Pelvis. Awesome. I'm super excited. So Torah Unboxed started around a year ago with our wonderful host Rabbi Winner Mendel winner. Um because at JET what we do is we help people study Torah and people are all the time asking for recommendations what to learn. We do have a resource page on our website um jet.org/resources where you can find lots of free material as well as um different books that are uh recommended. But uh there was no there was no content. and there wasn't explanations of why this or this like what if I'm looking for something more easy or more difficult. So that was really the inspiration behind the series, right? And which you've been presenting so well to explain to every person on each topic what could they find and you know appealing to their different tastes, right? So it's actually very interesting is because you know growing up studying Torah my whole life uh in yeshiva for many years and so on uh I always studied in Hebrew like I would use an English translation for reference uh to see a translation of a word to see a little bit of a different perspective but I I was learning mostly in the original you know Hebrew Tanya uh whatever it was um and once we started doing this ter unboxed so uh I started researching to see what is out there and I was pleasantly surprised to see the amount of of English translations and many different translations of a specific book for example. So we already did Humish. Humish was the hardest because there was there's so many translations like over there was I had to to basically pick the the top ones that we feel our our clientele would and our crowd that's watching uh would appreciate. But it was so good to see that there's so many books out there even though you don't know how to learn in the original Hebrew. uh and you may never know obviously of course you try to learn in Hebrew um to to get the original but for many people there's no time to learn the Hebrew right but there's so much there you can learn the the full quality uh of the depth of the topic in English right I actually it's funny because I grew up in Australia and for me learning in English was very very uh natural I would usually use Hebrew and English very rarely just the English but uh we had in our in our yeshiva we had a lot of we had a whole English library we had a Hebrew library which is extensive and also an English library. So I was very I got very into the English and I would study speaking of Kish. So there's the it's not really the topic for today when we get into but I would read you know I would do Rashi and then I read the English and I always my father also my father's a rabbi he would read with the English Rashi. So I don't know I always found it very natural and you get a deeper understanding and not only that it helps improve your Hebrew learning as well. Of course because you get a better understanding of both languages. Exactly. Right. Uh look there's you know it's if if if lang English is your first language which it is for most of us then then you should learn a lot in English. I mean you'll connect better with the topic you'll you'll you'll you'll gain appreciation and inspiration when it's in English. Yep. Now obviously that now that I've gotten older and more uh maybe more maybe wiser a little bit I do gravitate towards Hebrew more if something's available in Hebrew as well. Um it just flows easier for me. But uh I'm still picking I still have a vast English library and you know I'm going back and forth all the time, right? Uh okay. So let's let's go into the pirates because you know there's there's a lot we can talk about. Um so first and foremost pure you know as as a kid growing up we would at least I would I would read it usually like it's in sther um it's a thing we do like we spoke about in the in the book review. It's every chabas um shabas afternoon. you're sitting there, you know, you're just reading through it whether you understand 50 60 70%. Um, but then when I was 16 years old, I was in yeshiva in Staten Island um that Yeshiva recently moved to well whatever moved on to Westchester and um I was like you know what I want to learn Perky. So I got myself I I took the the the Mishna Kahhati from it's in Hebrew that collects a bunch of different commentaries. There is the English version by the way also. Really? Oh that's cool. We'll have to add it to the Mishnas u in a in a future book review. Uh, and I spent like, you know, 30 minutes or something on each parak. And sometimes I was late to the fabbrangan and the like the mashia would come up come by and be like, "Hello, there's aangan now. It's not the time to learn." And I'm like, "Okay, I'm coming. Coming." Anyway, so I got a little into trouble. Well, not really. But learning, I'm sure it was fine. You learn. Exactly. Yeah. That's how I thought. I'm like, I'm learning. Come on. And he says, "No, it's time to learning is another time." Anyway, that's when I first got a more of an appreciation for priory. father has been giving classes in Shiiora Perky for 50 years, close to 50 years. Yeah, it's it's it's impressive. So, he always has this very strong, you know, appreciation and excitement. I I actually uh I I discussed a few things with him before I I did the book review. Um which is really nice. Um so, let's talk a little bit about the book. I just I mean that you bring up some really interesting things. I'll tell you my I had a similar experience. Mhm. You know, one of the reasons why we learn pyavves, you didn't mention this in the review, but one of the reasons why we do puky in the summertime is because it's a long afternoon. Shabas afternoon. Shabas can end sometimes 7 8 9:00. So, you have the whole afternoon to learn. Interesting. So, I always wondered, okay, but always is anyways like very late. It's usually by, you know, by when it gets it starts getting dark outside and then you have the same amount of time winter and summer to study. And not only that, in Australia, think about it. In Australia, it's the other season. So, it's the winter then. So, it's the winter. So, we do pick obvious in the winter. The whole winter. It's very funny. So, what about like the whole thing that you do pick because it's warm weather and you I don't know. Someone's going to have to answer. I guess Australians are are constantly spiritually inclined and they don't it doesn't get that cold. People are still dressed, you know. Okay. Okay. But so, so I had this question. So, so I so so growing up, I would just pave just reading it like everyone else, you know, it's part of Davin kind of thing. Um, and I had that guilty feeling, you know, like this just makes no sense. Why am I just reading it? When it came to New York and we had the really long summers and especially co time. This is when I got really into it was during co. Yeah. Anyways, got nothing to do. It's a whole show afternoon. I would do early, you know, and then I'm like, why am I early? the fact that there's the whole thing. I don't think it's like you have to do between if you have time after your meal before to do and you have three four hours to sit and read one of these books and read it cover to cover each perk. You don't have to wait till so interesting. So let's tell all those that are busy napping on chabas. Yeah, it's a perfect time and that's what was I think that's if you really want to fulfill the custom properly, it's not about reading it, it's about saying it, it's about learning it, right? And you got to and if it's going to take you an hour to do then do it before and do it properly. Oh, we could take this even a step further. So it's called pirkyave which is ethics of our fathers. And we spoke about that it's uh it's really what parents teach their kids what it means to be a mench. So if a father or mother will learn pirates shabas with kids anyway home from school learn it with your kids or I mean there's a we'll get to the the children's one which is really interesting with stories and pictures. Even if you take one mission and learn it with your kids, even if they're young, that can be very impactful. And it's great because the kids are home anyway. Yeah. And it's and it's interesting, you know, it's usually more interesting and practical than a lot of other things that we that we study with our kids. Of course, I would just say one thing that people can um get lost on with all these books we're going to get through is that it's very important to start with the simple explanation of the Mishna and because even a simple explanation is not simple, especially these Mishna. Right. Exactly. And there's usually a lot of context and a lot of history behind it, but more so it's it's it's it's often a stepping stone. You learn the explanation and then you're like, "Oh, but this guy explains the the simple meaning differently and then you can get into the esoteric and how they intertwine and the lessons that just um you know, spread out from there, right? But sometimes with these books, you can it's it's catered to a certain type of individual, I guess. Well, it's focused on a certain depth or certain slant and then you can get lost in that and not understand. You can just be standing for an hour and not understand the actual meaning of the Mishna. Interesting. So, out of all of them, you want to say yours first, your I tell you, honestly, I haven't read that many of these. Um, I'll tell you which ones I have read and what I think. I've read this one. Um, this is the Pavah Kahas one. See for the full review from your video. Um I think this is great for after you learn the simple interesting learn the per well know the or the Mishna let's say right cuz the translation here is very b is very simple it's not like those translations on the where it has context and it's very simple translation so if you're going to just read this read the English and then do the commentaries you're going to miss you're going to get a great commentary idea but you won't necessarily see how it comes out in the Mishna Mhm. Um, not everything, not all of it is like that. There are some that are very straightforward, but I I always think that for this specifically, it's important you first understand the Mishna and then you go, I don't know. What do you think? Um, yeah, I hear what you're saying. Uh, what's cool about this is that there's there's really so much to choose from. And maybe I I guess it can get overwhelming because like with all the different departments in the bottom um and the different sections and different things. So if you if you open it up like you can you can easily like you're saying you can easily get distracted from the the basic um uh translation of the Mishna uh and get caught up into you know a rabbit hole of a different theme um before going starting off with the with the basics. Right. But it's it's probably the best one for if you want to learn like it's the only one really. Yeah. The only the only perav based onus and teachings of the rabbi is this one. Yeah. There's actually a pre an earlier version uh that I have that's like it's a white. Anyway, okay. I never read this one. You tell me. Uh I took a look at this one and this is probably my favorite. I haven't used this till I was preparing for this book review. Uh and I I fell in love with this one. I I definitely going to buy it personally for myself. Uh it's look, Rabbi Shandeltz is is all of his farm that we've reviewed. Uh those Tanya Kish and his Pyabas as well are so professionally done scholarly. Uh it's it's every every line is fully loaded. Um it's it's it's so logical. Uh everything that he it makes so much sense. Like it's it's it's really good. I I personally love it. Another really nice thing about this that none of the other ones have is he incorporates the literal translation and elaborations, explanations within the text. So it's it's a one flow. I like that. The a lot of other have it. The kahus has that and others. But for the pure, he's the only one that has that. So if you want to just sit and read one read, you don't want to jump around to different different sections and get a comprehensive overall understanding of the Mishna, here's your best bet. Awesome. It's a very interesting thing I realized is that there's actually different versions of the actual words. Sometimes different books will have words added or words subtracted or the number of the Mishnas will change or the order of the mishnas will change. Oh, very interesting. I mean, will so we go by the the altar of the sitter. So over there, it's very he kept he put it in the sitter and it's very exact what he did. What do we have next? Okay, odds scroll. Oh, this is this is really big. It's like over 400 pages. How on each mission has probably has like what 20? How many on each mission? How many sections? There's a line per page of mission. I mean, the whole thing is commentary, which is great. And um it's very it's interesting. It's interesting. not my style so much. Uh because it it is an emphasis on muser. So as a guy I'm more into um but but I actually find it inspiring and and very interesting. What how's the translation? You think it's it's basic straightforward um you know let's say compare it to others that are a little bit more dated. This is it's it's very the literal translations are very similar. When I looked at this, it it kind of reminded me a little bit of the the Kish, like the stone kish. Oh, their style. Yeah. Right. Which I liked. I I like that. Oh, it's the same author. So, not the same author. No, it's the same company. So, there has systems that they keep to But I like that, you know, there specialized uh versions of things and then there's generalized versions of things. So, this is the generalized if you want to get a taste of, you know, what does the Jewish world as a whole say, right? Not specifically niche. Well, they have nois in here. So Oh, really? None. Not even one thing. I mean, certainly not, but no, there's a little bit of like and you have like some of the um here and there. I can't see the note there. There is I mean, isn't I know and that's a fair point especially when you have the Reb spoke pretty obvious at Fbrangian very often, right? Maybe not every shabas, but very often in the summer. Yeah. So yeah, it's kind of I mean let's let's think about this a second. who is the Reb probably shared the most terra and the most commentary on Pyavis than anybody else. Even if someone wrote a pir let's think about this a second if someone wrote a pic that's ei or or even the rama is p is is in a book it's this right right is pretty long the rama is pretty long the rabbi went ahead besides you know elaborating on a lot of different push but the rabbi spoke hours and hours and hours on so those were all printed right they did make multiple they did make a version of the broom of just bum yeah right two books they did if you would take all the of the all talks to office from all those all the pages look at the that's a lot it is so listen does take the stuff in in the which I've been the the reuben edition it's like the stone edition but just they also have the rabbis there they have stuff some from from yeah cool and they also have sometimes yeah they write from what do they they write the labra say really? Yeah. Um, so I'd be surprised. I mean, it's a big book. We can Okay. Reach out to us to let us know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, fine. We'll have to read a little bit and, you know, a little bit more. Go through all 420 pages or something. Okay. So, let's do this one. The next one. Um, oh, this this is great. This is uh Beyond the Letter of the Law uh by Rabbi Yankee Talber. So, it's not a it's not a period from Perky. uh he takes 60 essays in different topics based on the teachings of the Reb. And uh he he what I like about Rabbi Rabbi Inky Talber is he is a he's a phenomenal pen like the way he writes things are very relatable very practical um very down to earth and he'll take you know different topics like divine providence or he'll take topics like uh marriage business um from the from the teachings of the rebba and write it in this really nice um essay and it's it's it's really good. I like I like his um the inside time series inside Inside Inside Inside Inside Inside Inside Inside Inside Inside Inside Story, right? That's his it's his stuff. I like that very much. It's the same style, right? It's the same Yeah. Yeah. I Go ahead. No, I haven't read I don't have this exact book, but knowing if it's the same It's the same author and the same style, that's it's it's beautiful. It's written well. It's uh you know concise enough that you can read it in one sitting and it he does have a higher level of writing than your average Kabad you know English book I think but it's it's Kashmak you know if you enjoy English and you enjoy the ideas I think that it's yeah it's definitely up there I I I would actually sit and learn uh the inside story with people one-on-one like as a textbased and we discuss good jet idea by the way it's wonderful based on the paras are based in they have it like you can buy a set of three now pick your topic or a ch theme on chabas theme on any upcoming holiday. It's it's wonderful. Yeah. Uh the only thing I dislike about this is that the font and the layout is a little bit dated. Like if we can revamp this uh keep the text just just the the layout would would be phenomenal. Okay, good point. The next one is uh this is a cute book. Reason why I'm saying it's cute is because it's it's short. Uh it's not the whole perky. He takes uh Rabbi Yasi Shanowitz. Have you read it? I haven't read it. No. He goes takes uh Mishna theme on in Perky and he writes a takeaway message in a very relatable practical way. It actually originated I was reading his introduction. It originated from his classes that he gave on Perky and people were asking where do you get this from like this is really good. So he said to the truth is let me print my notes um that he would use to appear his classes. and then eventually turned into a book which is great because everybody can enjoy his classes now even though they're not sitting there. It's like practical stuff. It's uh very much I mean the whole listen you have to remember the whole pirate office is is well not the whole but most of it is very practical like it's it's teaching the person not only the mechanics of Judaism the do's and don'ts like we spoke about in the book review you see the link in the for the video um but this is how to become a better person change your perspective um you know it's called Jewish ethics right so there's a lot of practical takeaways And then he takes us even further in starting with Sinai in this book um where he gives practical real life examples in 2025 um nice stories, parables. It's just phenomenal and it's it's an easy read. You can sit on the couch. Yeah. Um it's great. The kids one um that is colorful. Every every hal is brought down with English Hebrew or every Mishna I'm sorry. And um with I like their stories. They have a lot of stories. stories are great. He has a source for everything in the back. Also, not only not only um not only the pras, the their rambom and their not their working on that. They have a para. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. The parish, right? And their Tanya. Um so it's it's it's really good. Great inspiring stuff. Yeah. Kids love it. So what's your favorite Mishna? Okay, there's a lot of good Mishna and I don't know if anyone's specifically is a favorite, but I'll tell you a few that come to mind. First of all, the ability to take a deep concept and put it in short is amazing. You have previs and also if you notice some things are repeated um by different sages which obviously shows on its importance. For example, the idea of having a good friend or a good mentor is multiple times I believe in so that's a very important part of you know being an upstanding person. and you don't have anyone to if it's all about you and you don't have anyone to um to receive criticism, feedback u you know help you on your journey then I mean know sense obviously is that right it's there to help guide you with the wisdom of our sages but in addition to that you also need to have someone in real life flesh and blood blood to really help guide you so that's something which I I resonate with a lot tell you another thing so there's two quotes that are in Aramaic. There's more than two. There's at least two. Oh, with the skull drowning. Yeah, that one I never understood. I actually wanted I was thinking we should look it up. Look it up. Okay. But there's one which is right. Which means according to the donkey is the load. Not the donkey, the camel, it's the load. And the other one is a is that? Yeah, of course it is. Yeah. Which means according to the the pain is the reward is the gain. Right. Now according to the the camel is the load is it's it's very um what's the word? It's empowering. Okay. Hashem has given me the exact load for me. He knows what I can handle and that's what I'm going to handle. So why are you the guml? Why are you a why you a camel? It's like you know they say why the camel asks his mother why do we have these long these long eyelashes. Okay. To get rid of the because in the desert there's a lot of sand. So, mom, why are we in the zoo? Anyway, so I think that's very inspiring uh to know that it's a good perspective whenever you feel like you're overwhelmed to say, I'm not overwhelmed. I have exactly the right amount, the right load for my back. I'm going to be able to handle it. And the other one, the Agra, you know, life is always ups and downs. Nothing's ever smooth. So, you can be on a high and be like, "Yes, this is great." And then other times you can be on a low. And you have to realize that they correlate, right? The more effort you're putting in and the more you're persevering in the hard times and you're you're you know, when you have that challenge and you stand strong and you just get through it, you're going to have much better up times. And like for example, it's just a simple example, marriage, right, is a very challenging. There are certain part times that's very challenging, right? Are you talking from experience? Perhaps not necessarily. Um word on the street, huh? No. Yeah. It's obvious. Okay. Yes, I'm married. Thank God. Um, so there are times that's challenging, right? So, it's easy for a person to just say, "What's it worth?" But then you have times that it's really really good, you know? And those are the times you got to remember that this is a it's it's you need both, right? It's easy. It's easy to forget. It's not only marriage and everything in life. It's easy to remember the hardships and e and it's also very easy to forget the good times. So, they're they're connected, right? Yeah. There's a lot of other good quotes. I mean, one is a famous one which is that um yeah, that helped me a lot in Yeshiva. Yeah. You want to explain? Uh I was overwhelmed. I was like 15 just starting like I mean I was away from home learning Gamarra in depth and and you learned Eon which is in-depth Gamara. It's endless. There's there's there's so many layers of depth that you can go deeper and deeper and different commentaries and I was very overwhelmed. I remember I was like this is impossible. a song to my father which is Shiva and teaches Gamarra for well over 50 years right and um he was telling me this over and over again that like you're not required and obligated to learn everything cuz I would like I'm a little perfectionist and I wanted to do it all the way and learn everything like you don't have to not only do you have to you're not supposed to right because it's endless you'll learn you know you'll you'll learn the gamarra a few times and you're in depth, you'll you'll you'll learn some of you move on and then maybe down the line you'll come back to it which of course I did many of the I've gone back to you know later on uh and so on and that that was very calming to you if remember it's a it's a balance because you can get complacent but there's other side which is which is that doesn't mean that you explain that. Yeah. So, so first it says which means you're not obligated to finish all the work, right? Which means, you know, you do your best, but on the other side immediately, right, it's the next word. It says, however, remember something like that. Yeah, something like that. Um, which means that you're not, you know, a free person that can just not work at all, right? You're not you're not unemployed, right? You got to put in the effort, but don't get overwhelmed. That's the right balance. which is is hard. And then the end is the one who's who's who's in charge of the the business, the job, who gave you that job, he's going to make sure that you get paid what you are, right? So going to take care of you. You put in the effort. You do your part. Um whatever you can do, you you push yourself to your maximum potential. Uh even though it's not everything, but Hashem I wish the people in Yeshiva, the teachers would know that as well before they give you these huge quotas. Okay. Yeah. I I one more experience with me in a real life experience. I was in yeshiva as I'm not going to say where. Um and so the shir you know he explained the the magira the teacher explained the the over an hour like a very complex part of garra. It was in what maka was it was probably gin. It was either giten. Yeah it was gin. Um or babastra could be because the next year it was babastra. One of the two. Anyway so I didn't really get the whole thing. It was really hard and I think a lot of people in the shar weren't you know following was hard so it was whatever after the after the the lecture the shar I went over to to the rashiva and I said um I didn't really understand can you explain it to me again not the whole shear of course but a certain part you spent like five six minutes explaining it to me and I was a little slow I still didn't get it and I said but like I didn't say don't repeat it but like I said he asked a little bit of a different question and obviously my question implied that I wasn't really following So he's like um I think I'm um I think I am in the position right now of ina malame which is from office that a person that gets upset how would you translate capton impatient right um can't can't be a teacher so that's a general term a person that gets easily impatient can't teach because they're going to lose patience with their students right there's a story in the garra of someone who taught something like 400 times or something wow yeah to someone wow so he so he told me like right now I I I'm not going to repeat it. I can't I'm I'm in I'm in I feel like this right now and I responded you know which is the next part of it that if you're embarrassed you're not going to be able to learn you're going to be embarrassed to ask questions you're going to show your your ignorance but he didn't adise come back later honesty is good also speaks about honesty that's true it's true I thought just switch a little bit gears another which we which we I think we just read last chabas was about um having other behavior put in your office right you should greet everyone with a smile greet everyone you know with a pleasant demeanor so it's something which I struggled with I mean depending smiling you have a beautiful I'm a happy guy I love meeting people but sometimes you're just in a bad mood or you live in a place like New York where no one says hi to anyone you notice that I grew up in Australia and we would like you walk by the street someone you never met before but it's chabas you say good chabas just the way it is and then I I came here and I started saying good shabas and I realized every block you saying good chabas 10 times so I guess that's why maybe but New York is known for like well wait a second there's good chabas which I feel like is a little bit more common and then there's good morning on a random Tuesday to someone not part of your community in New York let's say you come into the office and you see someone you should say good morning you know who they are your coworker right or even if it's janitor you should say good anyway so that's something I've been trying to trying to work on I think as New Yorkers we could learn from the Australians and manners and yeah it's just not from Yeah. And and it doesn't say only your friends. It says let's call Adam everyone. Right. One more thing comes to mind. I think we're going to end with this. Um Perk chapter 30 of Tanya is two. What the does there so brilliantly he talks about humility and you should be humble in the face of everybody and every person uh not even Jews in front of every single person. Um should I rephrase that? two there's two gers there's two versions um and so the basically does is he takes two parts two Mishnas was one that says um you shouldn't judge a person till you walk in their shoes right and the other one is you should be you should be humble in the presence of everybody and he connects the two in chapter 30 he basically says that because you don't know what really goes on in their in their in their minds and heart you don't know what they're experienc eriencing, right? Because you can't judge someone till you walk in their shoes. You're never going to walk in their shoes. He he actually writes it really beautifully. I looked at Mishnop over here in in Rab Sho. It's his book that there's a lot of components. You even if you have the same job as them or the same life experience as them, you you have a different way you deal with stress as them. You have a different relationship with with your family as him. You'll never be in their shoes ever. And because of that, the alterba says you can never know what person's challenges is are. And therefore, you should always be humble because their challenge may be much harder than you. Even if they're failing, if you had the same struggle that they had, you would be failing much more. That's why you should be humble. I found that really fascinating. It's like first of all that means that that that idea that qu that the mission says don't judge your f your friend until you are in his place. It's kind of rhetorical because you're never going to be in his place. Right. Right. So never judge your friend. That's exactly what it means. It actually means means never judge your friend. And that idea of humility you're saying it sounds very similar to the idea of we say that Mosher was the most humble person because everyone he every one of his talents he thought that if Hashem had given it to someone else he they would have done much better job. So this is like the flip of that which is if I was in his situation I would not be handling it as well. Right. We highly recommend taking one of them, maybe multiple of the different um perkyavas that we have here today and uh learning it and really we should all uh try to adapt uh a little bit of those uh lessons of it's not also it's not you don't only have to learn on Shabbas afternoon right and not only not only in the summer you can learn it and yeah maybe one one thing a week try to take to right one one Mishna practically or even one idea one line there you go awesome I'm okay. Thank you so much.