The Hidden Depths of the Passover Haggadah - Part 3 - Rabbi Dr. David Gottlieb

you started the paragraph right after the four questions I what am I you know I pointed out yesterday that the first two sentences in this paragraph contradict one another the first one says we were slaves to Pharaoh next one says if a sham but not taken our ancestors out then we would have been but the truth is took our ancestors out so we weren't so we said when you say we you could either mean the people sitting at this table and while our contemporaries or it can mean the nation and in the first sentence says we were slaves it means the nation second sense is talking about us as individuals of course you and I weren't their ancestors were there but later on I gotta it says everyone is responsible to look at himself as if he went out we'll talk about that when we get there I think I want a comment on is the second sentence says if I share without taking our ancestors out of Egypt we and our children our grandchildren would have been God he uses an important word miss sure the new Shuba demon the Pharaoh in Egypt the first sentence says I Vadim good less secretary says my shoe of adding that had the same word ever is a slave mishu abad means that you are beholden to your under the other person's influence or are you owe something to the other person in in Jewish monetary law mushiya bad means what happens when you take a mortgage from a bank and use the money that you borrow from the bank to buy the house when you take a mortgage on your house who owns the house the bank sorry you own the house you own the house if somebody gets injured in the house you're held liable not the bank but you can't sell the house until you pay up the back we owned a house and we sold the house you go to the bank and there are two checks the first check that the buyer gives you covers exactly what's left of the mortgage and that's given to the bank and the bank deposits it and make sure that it clears and then you could take the rest of the money in change and change the title of house before they did I can't do it so that's a lien that's weld on li en on your house that's what's masseur bodies sure what means that not sane being a slave maybe you'll be free but you'll always have that influence of being a slave determining how you live and what you are and your ups and downs even though you're now free anyone who's an American knows this firsthand the blacks in America got their their official legal freedom a civil war and he still haven't recovered from the fact that they were once slaves is something which is still affecting their family structure and their psychological problems and their economic problems and drug problems and crime problems at all the rest here that God is telling us and global took us out he not least it was out but he freeness from the effects of slavery proof of it is a seven weeks later we received the Torah at Sinai that's a gigantic transformation it's not natural course of things that a in it and by the way this answers the question that people is if I chemin that taking us out then as a through miraculous means with the Egyptian Empire have lasted forever would we never have left Egypt why would anybody want to believe that I mean you could say the total sum piece of Tours telling us destroys I believe it anyway but this makes it much easier sure Egypt was caught up throwing down the Persians could have conquered Egypt and we could have migrated to Nigeria with knowing any difference we would still be freed slaves the slave experience mentality would have lasted with us and as it was that was largely displaced by the fact it away i sheltered us out there ok now it says I feel the cool i'll come on LaVon him even if we're all wise Oh discerning a little political footnote discerning english a Singapore is discriminating it used to be a praise to say that someone had discriminating taste takes me taste in in art and taste in literature and taste in in sports and seven and so on discriminating meant you're able to tell the difference between things that are different today can use that word because God forbid you should discriminate and I think that that's led to a lot of distortion because things that are different aren't being treated differently because I really afraid of being called discriminatory saying we talk about wise and navone novel means being able to distinguish things that really different all elders evilly all of the Torah is a mitzvah upon us too now here you have a phrase Libra which people don't pay attention to be this a pair bit you see I was right the Sapir means to recount tell over but it's not this up here SS a fair bit I'll comment to that in 30 seconds and the next words are especially important anyone who increases the telling of the story is praiseworthy woman laughs woman who was the mascara fear Rafa he asked here fundamental question when you are talking when you're trying to communicate with another person other things being equal use as few words as possible don't add words extra words the person's gotta pay attention to you you have to work out within its attention span if you multiply words and the words aren't exactly the same so then is going to say here you said P and here you said q Did you be something different we're changing your mind how they relate it it's confusing yours a few words as possible why would I gotta hear say the more words you use the better that's a fundamental question here put it on hold and we'll come back to when I have a lot more information all of which deals with 11 theme but is this is going to be a fundamental question and if you know any Hebrew or you can compare it with things the sub pair bit ucss right what does it mean Lissa pair and using the particle base rather than s which would be neutral tell the story so those are things we look like this yeah I didn't understand the connection between them I understand there's a contradiction because actions with what what sounds Jewish which two sentences the first two in the paragraph the answer isn't final the simple answer is that when you say we we come in you and I a week Amin our nation you can we talk about something that happened to the nation hundreds of years ago I just say we an American be speaking to a British person and say remember we won the war that doesn't mean the American is speaking took a gun and shot at british people it happened 200 years ago so as we we means our nation so the first sentence that says we were slaves in Egypt could be me could mean our nation was slaves in Egypt not me personally our nation our ancestors thousands of years ago in the second sentence says the individual people who were actually says he were our ancestors now I was like now is that tradition okay not and what's the difference between my show beginning of my we know it does it two separate points oh so what startling fanciful oh that's the point about evidence means a slave be sure about means that he has some influence on you some connection to you maybe you're not a slave but you're not totally disconnected you have free of his influence may be free of his slavery but you're not free of his influence you look at the blacks the United States today they are post slaves yeah that's what's creating them continuing problems Merkel says I took you out in such a way that you wouldn't have that Holocaust survivors there's a whole school of psychotherapy deal with Holocaust survivors and what's the deal with children of Holocaust survivors because they have certain common unique problems okay now come a few short paragraphs and I'll explain them but the experts now i'm going to give is sort of thin there's a much deeper explanation coming when we get to this theme that i keep hinting yet there was an event that took place in iraq when five of the tannoy asura sure Elizabeth are you to be keeping a photographer was sitting at the Seder and they were doing this myth superb it he's here to sign the whole night all the way through the night until their students or disciples came and said to them our masters the time of reading Sh'ma in the morning has arrived now let me just explain point here the midst of telling this or dealing with it exit of Egypt is a nighttime it sir once you get to the next day this is over over done finished when they come and tell them it's time for the morning smile but to tell him is it's over picture we get here is that these five men I tell you the story I did lost track of time totally lost track of time compounding the story is this none of these five men had ancestors were slaves in Egypt not one why because some other the descendants of conference and some of the beam and the lily were slaves in Egypt so it means that these five people somehow we're dedicated to this villa with great great dedication even though none of them could trace back biologically to their own ancestors who were slaves in Egypt now what's this doing here well it's a handy story and the talking about about the Seder tricky to stick in it cuz it's about the same thing I will show you that something much deeper is going on here that's one next thing the next is a mission up from Bracco's honorable is it now serving as I hire any given shave me Shauna well so he should tear marriages or Himalayas say like this I became like one who's 70 because at a very young age I was a messiah was so outstandingly great that the rest is a hydrant voted that he should be the head of the head do you know his response was to that vote no thing ask my wife he said I'm going home to ask my wife whenever people push you on feminist issues it's a good story to remember not making a decision to like go home and ask my wife at any rate he was a young man can't haul doctor's wife took counsel with her overnight he became quite so to appear as youthful as he appeared would have been to a certain extent disgraceful now that I know it sounds funny to you because you live in a culture where the younger you are the more expect to get the warm honor you get in the world attention you get the more famous you are and sever the zone that's not our culture our culture is one that looks up to the elderly and looked at our guidance in the elderly from the from the youngsters I always found it difficult when they started the movement called young israel yeah that's not a Jewish value the truth is they were trying to appeal to the youth so they wouldn't just leave altogether I understand the motivation but in terms of the concept and that judgment here and that by the way leads to a question I've asked this question for many years and some people have tried to answer it I have announced that really makes me feel good when talk about the five tannoy root who were involved in the story of Egypt and that students had to come and tell them that the morning had broke it broken and time was over that's not a Jewish story typically it's not a Jewish story they tell me then the disciples don't inform their elders five of the greatest stages of the history of the other religion that you know it's just missed something in there yeah their performance was sloppy they you know could have missed I should have stopped earlier it just doesn't ring true is something going on here under the table as Everett suggestions but I nothing at the satisfiability yes people is they're sensitive to wait Jewish leadership and Jewish example works it's a question that bull well bothell it yeah so here's our own entire he said I became the head of the hedron and i think one white of course ruffle do me a favor and make me look more respectable more honorable but i had a problem i have a belief that you should mention the exodus from Egypt twice a day once in the morning and what's the evening that's my belief and the other supposed to me and I was not able to prevent present to them and an appropriate argument a strong argument watch my worth and being very careful now appropriate or strong argument until Ben Zoma my colleague provided me with 11 depends almost say the verse says lamont is Chris Young says so Marisa so I'm calling me if I effing order that you should remember the day of your ex's from Egypt all the days of your life and it is universal in Jewish understanding of verses every word has tell you something on its own without that you could have just erased the word and it wouldn't have lost anything why does the first say all the days of your life wouldn't it have enough to say the days of your life in order to remember the exit from Egypt the days of your life when anyone have said all the days of your life that means no Wednesday's know what I said that the days of your life means as long as you live so what does the all come to inclusion you just finish the exposition of the question so Ben Zoma said when it makes reference to the days of your life it means the daytime's lighted skies call you may however it means to include even the night time because the coal includes something that otherwise you wouldn't know the sages say yes you're right the word call has to come to include self-ins you otherwise wouldn't have known but we don't agree with you that it includes night time the days of your life refers to this world this stage of history call you may hire car the end of the world coal comes to to include even messianic era why did I say before that those are Mazzarri wanted a appropriate argument or an important argument because even with his argument he doesn't convince the sages to agree with him they're still holding out against it so what he meant was I didn't have anything to say I'd have any dish to explain my point of view now he's got something to say whether i'll call you may say huh the call comes include nighttime that's all how he said to him you are right that calling me excited for the call comes to include something that wasn't there before but you include night Anna we include the time of the machine we're not getting in that's why I didn't say that he didn't have a winning argument a convincing argument that he doesn't have even afterwards but you'd have any argument to explain himself so now I just want to explain a little bit about the difference of the two opinions here obviously but Ben Zoma villasana zaria I telling you without any further instruction when it says the days of your life it will mean that aight i'm not the nighttime but there's an extra word so what what is he got against nighttime why would night em somehow be naturally intuitively off-limits and then put in extra word so you push it even into that sphere and for the rub for the rabbi's is even worse without an extra word they would say this stage of history ah but the next to worry which doesn't even at times of them messianic hero then to also what did you gotta get some same here why would you have thought that special instructions you wouldn't have told the story then without direction where do I come include even that so the answer is is in each case is a reason to restrict it and not include nighttime and not include the times of meshia daytime and nighttime in our literature have straight symbolic meaning they tie means times when things are good Jews living in Israel we have our own independent government the temple is built we're offering the sacrifices and we have prophecy that's ideal time nighttime symbolizes exile persecution in security injury death and one might say we're talking about the exodus from Egypt the actually these ones so slavery to freedom can you really celebrate your freedom or be thankful for your freedom when you're not doing so well when things are tough when you don't have national independence one of the people are kicking you around maybe under those conditions reciting the XS for Egypt wouldn't be appropriate so Ben Zoma Rossum Azaria say we realize there's a resistance here but it says all the days of your life you know what the rabbi say back you're wrong you can't say it at night period it's a mistake not appropriate to say to die you have an extra word all will tell you what to do with that apply to the months at messianic hira don't apply to nighttime what you saw is about as a barrier we see as a perfect value you can't get through that barrier even with an extra word so we're going to say sugar goes on let's thank you what we could you have against my see an Akira there's a verse first the private somewhere I never remember where because I've never studied the prophets carefully I know very little about them but it says that the Salvation the ultimate salvation that will bring us to the third temple and bring all the Jews back the land of israel and everyone in the world will know that we're right all the rest that salvation will put the exits from Egypt in the shade it'll outshine the extras in Egypt so much so diverse says people will not say that God took us out of Egypt people will say God provided us with the ultimate salvation and the times of the Messiah so that verse makes it sound like it's going to be a demotion the excellent each is going to mean much less and you will be much less so therefore the rabbi say you have the extra word it comes to tell you that yes true times on the side it's going to mean less but you still have to say you still have to mention it still worthwhile it's less but it's still enough to be worthy eventually and here those are bad as i am and zelma come back and return the compliment to the common they say you recognize there was a barrier against say it in the times the Messiah we think that barrier is absolute the extra word Cole doesn't help you it can't say at the time of the Messiah so we are using it for nighttime that's the structure of the Mishnah in imbrose least on the surface question will be what's it doing here why are we doing this this is talking about the mitzvah 365 days a year calling tourism as I in the morning and the evening we come home the night of this of the fifteenth of of Nissan we already did this mitzvah ensure it took about 30 seconds we said the last paragraph ishma we did it and we finished it we're coming now home to the Seder so what's this doing here who needs it ok Exodus Exodus you know clicks a rush of the same thing and then you're just throw it in because it's you know can I have it give me a break there's got to be some other deeper least in our probably 17 other deeper ideas here but we'll come back to that okay we're together now there's a little introduction to the four sons with a little introduction of praise voila hinako borrow who Bora she Nelson tell them are you so el burro who how many times did we say borrow for introduction to the four sons hmm wonder if that could possibly be connected obviously it's got to be connected now let's start Barlow comical what does dad mean i'ma call means the place oh man there are great places you know there's a Taj Mahal dead at that building is absolutely fascinating that's a great place I mean that's not what we're talking about this is a way of praising god what could it possibly mean to call God the place here's a secret it's a Kabbalistic secret the word macomb and callously thought means the ground of possibility that which makes certain things possible that which makes things possible I'll give you an example you can't cook food without heat you live in the Arctic Circle and you don't make fires and some of the song you can't cook food period just can't be done cookie requires heat if you have the heat death of the universe you can't cook anything too bad no ride ribs because you need heat now what about muckle every physical object takes up space if there weren't any space they couldn't be physical objects physical space creates the possibility of objects to call God the place as a way of saying that he creates the possibility that there should be anything else and then he realizes that possibility God does things so to speak in stages well how talks about this and at least 20 different places dozens and stages for various reasons and the first stage is to create the possibility of things and then to go on to realize those possibilities in various ways so when you speak of God as the macomb by the way when go to comfort mourners that's what you say I'm mocking me an alchemist I'm so sorry I would say to shine hamako God should give you comfort so starting off here's a bless it is God bites ain't calling mhmm oko refers to him as the possibility of everything well who who is third person in in in Hebrew it means he is blessed not second person which would be at all or any English you but he what is the difference between you and he thought Sophocles what's the difference between us well grammatically what's the difference between a crucial crucial different twist in spiritual terms becomes absolutely essential what's the revision saying blessed are you saying blessed it is he both are correct grammatical you say you the one you say whatever you want you can be said only for someone who's present in front of you he can refer to someone who's absolutely distant can't say you Barack Obama thank God because to say you Barack Obama we'd have to be here to talk to him you could say he Barack Obama because he's in Washington or where he's wasting his time now it is so the second one is blessed it is he it's treating God as distant not open three of the five of us but distant then it says not entirely holy soil blessed is he who gave the tour to Jewish people and bro who again God as distant and then it says the Torah spoke about four sons now our lab ran this after we go through the four sons but the picture here is God gives existence to everything including the wicked son that's important to understand how God runs the world it's all so unimportant understand how we run our Seder so we will we will talk about that the Torah spoke about four sons the wise the wicked is simple and the owner doesn't know how to ask this section not with the four sons raises a lot of questions and when we explain them understand them we'll have some I think quite deep ideas first of all if you're going to make a survey of people and divided muffin categories would you choose these four categories wise Wicked's simple and one who does not ask are these categories related to one another than any interesting way they seem almost arbitrary it seemed to be a jumble they don't listen to any order in them and of course know a little bit sages are we know that can't be true so that's one question second of all if you look carefully look at the wicked son probably the wicked son at the end of the paragraph it cites a verse from the third Bob rahzel so I shall leave as I see them astray the sake of this God did for me I have to eat that's the first we used to answer the wicked son now skip to the fourth paragraph when it's not I ask and you'll see that the end of this paragraph is the same thing I was also a sham leave you say she was right the author of the gutta is using the same verse to answer the wicked son and the one who doesn't how to ask golly why is he doing that is he implying some kind of connection between the wickets I want that I asked what kind of question can I could that be then there's a question by elio ki Tov which is an absolute bomb when I read this in his commentary about myself boy you stupid oh I got at least by that time under times didn't occur to me the simple son says what is this matthos so sure any other the show does not I ask are we imagining a child who can't ask what is this how old is he my children and grandchildren at the age of 12 months can ask what is this when we can they do it all the time so we're talking about a kid who's 10 month old but then you say because of this I shall did for me when I left Egypt you're talking to a 10 month old baby diapers who is this one who doesn't have her ass now that's awful when you go to your Seder and you started to say during them and whoever is conducting its toughness say no the other you asking that who is this baby who can't ask what is this and you're saying to him the sake of this God to me I went together with you it's nutty yeah I was just related to you and she I'll come back okay alright so that's three questions so far now the there's another question about how many did I to only two questions over to visit our another one look at the cat paragraph with the with the wicked night I hope your translation gets this right it's probably does let's read through the paragraph pay attention to the grammar potential away the words work and you'll see it's something very peculiar what is the wicked son say what is this service for you for you and not for him and because he excluded himself from the community he denied the basic principle of the Torah and you shoot you too should blunt his teeth and say to him for the sake of this gem did for me when I left Egypt for me and not for him had he been there he would not have been redeemed look at the end of the paragraph say to him all right the wicked son has had his speech he's issued his challenge now the court instructs the one who's leading the Seder say to him cause it as a chef this mentality jipped for me and not longer says for him had he been there he wouldn't have been redeemed but that's not right I suppose he's speaking to him I should have said it for me and not for you if you have been there you wouldn't have everything why does it say for me and not for him but it says say to him them are low say to him I mean he just asked you a question so he's probably there and he had a thought they just you know ran off in the interim it says say to him so very picky the picture that you getting of the performances he's sitting there he uses his challenge what is the service to you and what is leading the Seder turns to the rest of the company and says you see him over there you see him let me tell you what his status is cheb did this for me when I left Egypt had he been there he wouldn't have been redeemed I'm not talking to him at all talking about it not talking to him laughter is what it is why are we doing it now Rama keto starts the answer by describing translating two verses from the book of Proverbs two contradictory versus back-to-back one says I'll tan seal Kiev Alto don't answer the fool according to his crooked potential ago namitha lest you be equal to him the other says an egg silky about Oh answer the fool according to a scrupulous exact contradiction Pena haha met enough lest he be wise in his own eyes so the careful reader says what do i do no one says thrown into the fool noses yes answer the fool and they're back to back what is he in Solomon trying to communicate and the answer of course is there different types of fools and the course of distinction is this there are fools who we need to talk to them they don't listen they talk when you're talking they're just working up the next speech there listen to your own you ask the questions or make points to them they don't answer that King Solomon says you come across a fool like that and if you haven't met fools like that in your lifetime you will at the cemetery that so does christian missionaries are like that and political fanatics are like that I was a doodle says he Solomon don't talk to them don't waste your time don't talk to but there's another kind of fool he's a fool and he believes foolish things but he's not a hundred percent self-confident he realizes that there could be weaknesses in his position and therefore if you talk to even if you're the one who opens up the dialogue with him you might shake his confidence and you might get him to rethink their King Solomon says since there's a possibility of communicating with him you open it up talk to him interact with him because if you don't says King Solomon after 20 years goes by this fool will say look I've had these opinions for 20 years no one ever called me outline no one ever challenge me so I was be right so in order to prevent that mistake challenging and have it out with him now scissor little kito that's the difference between the wicked and the one who does not ask that girl uses the same verse for both of them ana be cut from the same cloth the other difference is that the wicked is so self-confident that were you talking to loosen that one of those how to ask if you talk to him there's a chance that he will listen to you that's why when the wicked one asks this question we don't answer him we refer to him in the third person we say had he been there he would not have everything indeed we're not talking to him we're talking everybody else about it whereas with respect to the one does not ask we are willing to open up the discussion with him and by the way that now says hello quito is the definition of the orders I've asked it means he's the one that doesn't matter ask the way the wicked one asks it's not he doesn't matter ask the way the simple one asks I don't even can say what is this but he does not ask the way the wicked one asks and that's why he's hesitant to present himself and you notice that hesitancy and then you open up there because maybe the dialog will shake her self-confidence now that's as far as lucky tacos I want to add to it the first one of the sons is the Y son what is wisdom here the translation is very misleading wisdom in English means you're very smart very deep you know a lot you understand it very well that's not what wisdom eats or coffee means in DB what what does whether cuz I'll say hazel haha hello made me call Adam who is wise someone who learns from every person that means wisdom is knowing that you yourself are incomplete you don't have everything you don't understand everything you don't have all the information or the depth that you've got to get it from elsewhere there are other people and other and things in the world are sources of this information because I'll particular say other people be called a damn from anyone now having told you that those are you still conscious can you explain to me the relationship between the wise and the wicked how they related yeah what logical relationship do they have I asked one of the questions we asked was what will these four categories how the related to one another the officers yes how are they opposite well the wise is coming to understand and the wicked is coming to us he said to Tom that's just challenge he doesn't want to hear you that G he wants to the opposite he wants to just continue asking doesn't want to hear a word of what you're saying this is it you got it exactly right I just say one word but you've got the right concept though why son is open and the wicked son is closed mmm direct diametric opposite now I'm a logician when you have a relationship like that I'm happy it's a straightforward logical relationship they're contradictions and then the other two are pale reflections each one on his own side the simple one is open he's asking but he's so simple and so uneducated he can only ask the blandest of all possible questions what's happening the wick the one who does not ask is a reflection of the wicked one he too has foolish ideas but it's not a hundred percent closed he's almost ninety percent close and then what the author the gutter is doing is giving you a mini lesson in psychology and education and he's telling you when you conduct the Seder and you are responsible to pass down this excess of Egypt to your children gauge the child gauges openness gauges closeness and make sure that what you say is appropriate to the condition of the child in terms of what he's open to it what he isn't open to and that could mean what he's open to in terms of the subject some people of all ages some people can't hear certain subjects I just can't he started talking about just came here and say to a certain type of six-year-old don't take toys for children who are weaker than you looks at you as if you land if run from the moon on your head what I mean that's how I get toys that's how I enjoy myself I shouldn't think we're talking about are you nuts of course I where they that's yeah well nobody's looking that's what I do go explain it in he's six years old we always 9010 you know it tells me this baby so they're opposites and the other two are opposites well and the idea is to sensitize you to the to how you deal with children and of course it's not only children here its children in school the situations if anyone younger than you are and also anyone's older but may not know as much about the subject as you do hint hint right i have to say anymore right all of your contact with people who may be older than you but who know much less that you do about certain subjects like the subjects you studying easier so i think that makes the choice of the four categories very appropriate now I'll just say one more word i'ma finish with the four sons the challenge of the wicked son is very I would say is he brutal his words are what is this service for you what is this service for you those words put him diametrically opposed to what the Torah stands for why does it do for you lower your blood pressure ensure that your marriage will be longer and happier get you respect among your contemporaries what does serving God through those rules do for you for us that's an entirely wrong question the Torah isn't God's handbook for human beings having happier lives happier in their own terms the Torah is God's thoughts in creating the universe so to speak and his will for a man should do and man does it because the Creator wants it he's not my servant I'm his servant so the rushes question what does it do for you is an exactly on Jewish Question a Jew understands what the Torres would never ask a question like that he would ask what can I do for God not was it do for me that's one of the things that puts him in the camp of the wicked he measures the Torah by his reality rather than measuring himself by the toes reality that's what you should be doing measuring yourself by the toes you