The Hardest Truth: You Can't Change Another Person.

We were describing a scenario. Somebody calls me and I'm feeling like, "What do you want from me?" You know, Joe Rogan, >> right? >> I know nothing about this, [laughter] >> right? >> And they're saying, "My loved one is out of control. A child, a spouse, a a parent, and I'm saying to them, listen, this is an insane situation. Absolutely. Would you like to get your life back? Would you like to get some serenity?" And they're like, "No, no, no. I just I'm I'm I'm hellbent on I must change this person. Okay. And in which case we're at an impass because you have free choice over your own behavior. You don't have free choice over someone else's behavior. And what you pointed out was well you know there is still stuff you could do. You can I mean we called it you could provide love and and it's actually very helpful but and I I made the point of like let's be very transparent very clear about this. Don't conflate that with trying to change them. And here's why I want to go slow because I want everyone to track this. We are so used, I'm saying we collectively, I include myself, we are so used to using kindness manipulatively, we forget that there actually can be gratuitous kindness. What is gratuitous kindness? Gratuitous kindness means not only it's unearned, but it's without an agenda. meaning to say I'm not expecting a particular result from this. I'm doing this like you said because because now that's very supportive. I agree with you. The problem is very few people are going to be able to maintain the incredible spiritual uh strength that it requires to continue pumping love into somebody without doing it. manipulatively without having an unspoken agenda. That's why we get back to what I was saying before when people call up and they're saying, "My loved one is out of control. My loved one is an addict," and I say to them, "What would what work are you ready to do?" Meaning to say, "Between you and me, I don't know how you feel about this, but I know that if their loved one really is an addict, which I'll never say they are or they aren't, but if they really are an addict, I know the only solution is a spiritual awakening, >> right? And by the same token, I know that this person who, you can use the word codependent, you can use whatever word you want, but the person who's in the orbit of that addict, their only way out of this insanity is their own spiritual awakening. Because it's the spiritual awakening that is necessary to be able to have the superhuman power to continue pumping love into somebody without the expectation that they owe you anything for it. So we we come from >> it's about as godly as you get. >> You're literally acting you're acting compassionate in in Hashem's ways of compassion. But here here's the thing to me the spiritual awakening part of like the call it the recovery from codependency [clears throat] that's unavoidable. You can't take that piece out because you could tell them pump them full of love. But if they're still addicted to the addict, they're going to that's like telling an addict you'll be able to use like a gentleman. You can use casually, you know, occasional. You'll take a little, you'll stop, which we know is absurd. the same thing as telling someone who is addicted to the addict, who's who's using the the the the the bid for power and control called um manipulative love to tell them, "No, no, just love them, but but but don't do it manipulatively." >> They can't. >> They can't until they have a spiritual awakening and then they can give the way Hashem gives. It's it's I I consider it on the level codependency. I consider on the level of sex addiction and food addiction where you have to continue doing it. You can't like I always say drug addicts and they could forgive me are the luckiest of all them. You never have to >> just cut it out of your life. Right. Just never do it again. >> You just don't do that. Right. >> Although underneath it's all codependency. But what I'm saying is >> correct. Yes. Agreed. I know nothing about this topic but agreed. >> Yeah. [laughter] You Joe Rogan me. I love it. Um, anyway, by the way, I'm waiting my whole life for you to Joe Rogan me. >> Really? >> I'm just I didn't know it until that moment. You know what I'm saying? >> You retros in retrospect. >> In retrospect, this is what that should have been my goal. >> Waiting for [laughter] Yeah. Okay. >> No, but I'm saying is that certain process addictions you can't stop. I now need to know how to eat food, >> right? Healthy. >> It's not But here's the thing. It's not the what, it's the how. So when like you're talking about something like drugs and alcohol, you can reduce it to the what because you can just eliminate that that what from your life. Things you can't avoid like you got to continue eating, right? Um or relationships, being a codependent, you got to continue having a relationship with people. Um you can't cut the what out. You have to change the how. So the how if you want to really make it simple is to do it lashim shamay which sounds simple but it's the hardest thing and that's why it necessitates a spiritual awakening in order to be able to do it. >> I have a trick >> for codependence >> life hack. >> Life hack. >> It's kind of the basis of of like almost all the work I I had to give this away for free. >> For free. [laughter] >> It'll be in the book. >> Okay. >> Um the trick is is the only way to truly truly be able to give to an addict. >> Okay. >> Meaning in a healthy way. >> In a healthy way. Correct. Yeah. >> Um is to view them as a baby. >> It's the only trick. That's a trick. >> Pretend it's a baby. >> It's a baby. And every time you slip off of they're a baby because emotionally >> that's what they're at right now. Like they their their coping mechanisms are on baby level. >> Every time you go into Oh, but it's an adult. Like it's cute when a baby >> right >> hoos in the diaper. It's not cute when a 50-year-old man does that when he's the father of your kids. It's just not cute, >> right? >> But every time you leave, every time you think, "Oh, maybe he grew up now. Maybe he's different." >> Right? That's where they explode. It means the only way you could do it is we have to recognize that right now for whatever reasons, >> right? >> That's a whole another discussion. This person is stuck at baby stage, >> right? >> And if you're able to stay there, >> right, >> suspend your disbelief and >> continue giving to them without getting sucked into the drama >> because I don't expect a baby to get a job and change his life and I don't expect anything. >> So, you've disarmed them of all expectations. Like these expectations are premeditated resentments. So, if I see them as a baby, I'm not I'm not going to get disappointed. Right. >> Right. There can't be any agenda. It can't be like, you know, I changed that baby's diaper and he didn't even say thanks. >> Right. >> Nobody's thinking that. Right. >> Yeah. >> A normal person at least. >> But if you we a great life hack. >> Yeah. We have a different I don't know if I want to expose this, but in the so in the sober living with the staff. So we have something called when someone does something so insanely crazy like and they do it's like they the the level of testing yeah >> is tremendous. >> Okay. >> So we say FDA. >> Okay. >> Which stands for effing drug addict. >> I'm not going to say the word but they say it's like remember what you're dealing with. It's not he's not here. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's our mantra. >> Right. Yeah. >> And by the way that that wasn't like planned. I my one of my colleagues at work saw me doing it. >> Oh, >> me. I was just doing it in my head. >> Like you named some of my moves, >> right? He named Right. He named my move and I'm like cuz I was just going I was like I was saying the word real words, you know, in my head and he was like what what are you whispering to yourself? [laughter] >> So that's a name of a move. >> That's a move. Go for that. Um okay. So then okay, I'm going to get off of I don't know how we got on to addiction. I think addiction all day. I don't know how >> because I was talking about compassion fatigue and I was giving you an example. One of the things that give me the most compassion fatigue is when people call about a loved one who's an addict. And then we get in this whole I think very important discussion by the way of the only way for the loved ones of the addict to really help the addict is to stop trying to change them and to connect to realum Hashem's gratuitous kindness which will by necessity require a spiritual awakening and which I think that's a very important point. By the way, before we close the book on any addiction talk, one more thing I think needs to be clarified because it it confuses so many people and that is >> classic question. I mean this is very inside baseball. So unless you're part of a certain world, you never had this question. But if you are part part of a certain world, it's a it's a very common question which is like this. How do you reconcile these two approaches? the the the gratuitous love, you know, treat them like a baby, expect nothing. Just pour the love, pump them full of love. Um, and and understand that the love itself is medicine, especially parental love. Okay? In fact, let's let's focus on parents. Let's say specifically >> parental love is medicine. Okay? That that approach that approach and then what we call let's call it an Alanon approach. I'm not going to be your uh enabler. >> Classic question, right? >> Yeah. >> How do you reconcile those two approaches? There seemingly opposite approaches. One is love, love, love, love, love. The other one is I don't know. Don't call me if you're in jail. Okay. I I want to hear the answer cuz I'm already fired up now. >> You've asked. Yeah. I just I just I just hate the word enabler. just hate that word so much. I wish they would cut it out. >> Well, it's been weaponized. >> It's been weaponized. I tell I just tell you, I actually just had Aby Fish off on. He's like the opposite of enabler. He's like the other side. >> But uh he I told him that a long time ago I got really angry. >> You're saying he's the opposite of the crowd that you >> uses the word. Right. Right. Right. He's like >> to tell parents to basically >> put up boundaries and cut off the flow. Cut off the flow. Cut off the flow. Right. Exactly. And obviously the exact opposite, which is open the flow, double down on it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm much closer to that to that camp. So, >> no, I what I was saying to him is that I was getting a lot of flack from the work I was doing in our place, which is teens. >> They're going direction. Too much love. >> They were saying, "Yeah, too much love. I'm I'm enabling. I'm enabling." >> So, I kept This is one of my favorite things is that I didn't know how because my policy is I don't fight back. We don't fight back. Our whole organization, you could say whatever you want, right? >> We just keep helping. That's what we're doing. You do your thing. It's been frustrating cuz I get angry. So, it's like it but I So, >> I didn't do it, but I changed our letter head secretly and nobody even knew it cuz like, you know, it just goes out in the emails. >> I changed a letter head to our place enabling resilience. [snorts] just snuck it in. [laughter] >> And and no one knew for years. I don't even know if it's still there. It might even still I don't I think we've gotten a new one since a good marketing team has changed it. But I snuck it in. So anyway, you're ask answering that question. How do you >> I didn't answer yet. I asked it. >> Well, I want you to answer it cuz I have no good answer. >> Okay. I have an answer. >> Okay. >> It's not the only answer. It may not even be my answer tomorrow, but it's my answer today and it's been my answer for quite some time, for years when I and I spent a lot of time in this suga. >> Yeah. >> And uh here's here's what became clear to me because it is a kasha or it seems like you know seems like a good kasha. The answer by the way we already said it. I could take literally take snippets of conversation that we've had. so far and just edit it and we I could answer this question already because we've already said it, >> right? >> But but I'll prompt you to say it. >> What's sick about the way that the person who's addicted to the addict is using love? What's sick about it that makes it create more drama and more chaos >> because of the expectations? I I I'm sorry. Okay. Oh, I would say because you're expecting you're you're you're using that person to fill your own tank. That's what's sick about it. >> If if you're using that person to fill your own tank, I might even question if it's legitimately love. I mean, ahava [clears throat] is is giving. You're saying that's it's actually a sneaky way of taking. >> It's a very that's that's what I that's how I would define codependency. Do you know that that is that will infuriate most people who are in the throws of full-blown codependency? Because in their mind, they are doing every they're martyrs. They're doing everything. And then you're going to tell them, "You think you're so selfless? This is the ultimate selfishness." By the way, you don't say that because it'll just >> I just say it on podcast [laughter] >> for them. that guy say that >> but the reality is like this if I'm using I'll tell you vart want to hear vart okay um there's a term chalamus what is >> I mean like the act I mean doing >> when you hear the expression >> specifically >> burial >> term burial right burial >> okay and specifically mas mitzvah if some there's some there's a dead body that no one's taking care of. It's called and it comes from the story in when Yanke tells Yf he says do for me says immness for the mason for for dead people that's called true true true okay so what's the classic explanation the classic explanation is because when you do kindness for a dead person they can't pay you back >> right okay so that's why it's true kindness because there's no ulterior your motive because they can't pay you back. Okay. I go poke a hole in that right away. I mean, not to poke holes, but I go >> I'm very excited. Okay. >> Cuz that's what I think, >> right? Well, that's what everyone thinks. >> Okay. >> No expectation of reward. Get out of here. You don't believe in God. You don't think God is going to pay you back for that? To the contrary. This is one of the biggies, right? So, I'm gonna gonna deal with a with a with a dead body and bury the dead body because I'm so selfless. The dead body can't pay me back. Yeah, no kidding. He can't pay you back. But you don't think that's uh going to go in your bank account. So then how is it? >> Good question. So the VA is like this. I don't even know the mucker for this. I might have made it made it up by the way. It's possible. Disclaimer disclaimer. I could have made it up. I don't think I made it. I think I heard it somewhere. Um, [sighs] when you're dealing with a living person, you're always wondering, "Am I helping or am I hurting?" The one time you have absolute clarity. I know what this person needs. See a dead body. I know what he needs. He needs burial. You can't get it wrong. I know what he needs. [laughter] I know what he needs. He That's so Yeah. So the the the the thorniness of it, the the confusion of just how do you get clarity? What do you need? What am I even if I want to give in a healthy way? Even if I want to give in an altruistic way, but what does that even look like? How do I how do I do it? So So the answer is it's not a what, it's a how. There's not a certain what. If you give this thing, then it's healthy. If you give that thing, oh no, then then then you're enabling. It's not a what, it's a how. How you give it. If you give it because it's a chess move, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Right. The codependent who I'm going to bail you out, but then you're gonna it's menshite. You're gonna owe me. You're gonna have to act sane for at least a month if I bail you out. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's unspoken barter, right? And then of course the person doesn't act sane. Not even for a month. They don't act sane for an hour. >> They never do. >> Betrayal, right? Resentment and >> no trust. >> Sorry. >> And then the drama and then the chaos, right? And then, okay, how do you get off that roller coaster? Not the what, it's the how. You can do any what with with the with the mace mitzvah. It's it there's only one what bury him. But there's somebody who is maybe spiritually currently in a state of misa. So then it's not about the what, it's about the how. And I will I will go as far as to say this. Anything that you do that is any what anyone if you do it truly selflessly mahum just like Hashem is compassionate so you be compassionate then it can't hurt and it'll probably help but if you do it any what anything you do it with an agenda you're going to ratchet up more of the insanity so now you're following okay so now let's take it back to the whole question. Alanon says, "Don't be an enabler." Tough love. I want to tough love is the easy way of not being an enabler. That's the non-surgical way, >> right? >> That's if you don't have the skills yet and you just want to air on the side of caution. Okay. The safest thing is I'm cutting you off cuz if I cut you off then I can't give to you in a toxic manipulative way. Which is true by the way. >> It is true. >> And there are some people who are so addicted to the addict they can't present presently cannot stop giving in a manipulative way. In those cases very often it is better if they cut the the addict off. and the the the I think they're the rare con rare cases where somebody actually is cut off by their family and it actually good for them. It was that kind of situation, >> right? >> Okay. So, you know what I'm talking about. >> So, once in a while we get a kid and we're just like I'm know I know I'm like if this kid is still in this house I don't know, right? >> They got to go. They got [laughter] they got kick them out. They have to find the program or something. Okay. So [sighs] when when you don't know how to give altruistically shay so air on the side of caution you just okay so I won't give I'll give you nothing I'll cut you off okay well that's one way to avoid being a manipulator is just to have zero relationship it'll do the job right it's like um swatting a fly with a shotgun Right. >> A lot of people do this with drugs and alcohol, meaning they don't work on themselves. It's just like, I I can't have a healthy relationship with drugs and alcohol, so I'll just cut it out and then think I'm all right. We call it white knuckling because they haven't fixed the problem. >> So, that's interesting what you're saying. This form of tough love is the codependence version of white knuckling cuz they still want to manipulate. They they wish desperately they could control this person. They're just they're so exhausted that okay, I can't I can't do it. I can't I can't manip, you know, it's just insanity. I cannot manipulate you. Get out of my life. You can't be manipulated. It won't even work. All my manipulation skills are not working. It's too exhausting. Get out of my life. Right? Whereas somebody who actually has had a spiritual awakening in a program like Elanon, who's actually recovered, we can get into recovering recovered maybe another time. >> That one, okay, we'll skip. But someone who's actually recovered from their codependency, who actually is able to do the the true gratuitous kindness with no expectation of anything, that person can safely give love and it doesn't ratchet up the insanity and it's not enabling. The enabling is the toxic giving which is a covert form of manipulation. But if you can give truly with no expectation to to just say, you know what, I'm going to give everything to this person and they may never get sober and they don't owe me getting sober just because of what I've given them. Just like the baby owes me nothing for changing the baby's diaper, >> right? Then go ahead and give because now you're giving healthy and you may even help. Usually they do help by giving in that way. So that's how I resolved that whole thing. how I reconcile the whole kasha, >> you know, is it is it about is it the alanon approach of of tough love or is it pumping them full of love? And the answer is if you really really recover in a program like Alanon and come to that spiritual awakening where you're truly just practicing these principles in all of our affairs like this 12 step says and you're just being kind just because that's the godly thing to do and you're not getting offended when your kindness doesn't get you anything. Then you can give that kind of kindness even to someone who's an active addiction. And not only will you not make them sicker, you may even make them healthier, >> right? >> But it's how you give. >> It's how you give. I completely >> And you mentioned Avi. That's why Avi like disabuses of the whole notion of you're trying to make them f. Now the reality is he has hundreds of kids that did become, right? But he has to convince the parents, you're not trying to make them from, right? You're not nothing. You're just giving. You're just giving.