The Halachik Status of a Ger Who Was Circumcised Without Tevilla & the Controversy of 1848

this Torah class is brought to you by Torah anytime.com okay welcome everyone this is going to be the uh subject of of this is also a very um important suya in terms of understanding the role of bris in gas the brought three opinions what constitutes geros do you need Mila do you needa or do you need both so the gamar said rebelar says that a g that had mil withouta it's a good GEOS because the Jews at har had mil and no Rua says without mil is good because the women who came out of Egypt they had say you need both that's the bottom line then the gar concludes that to without mil everybody says is good and that we learn out from the IM and the shil is if you had Mila withouta Okay so Rua says that that does not work andar says that does work and the certainly say it doesn't work because you need both please take a look at the third the third has a later on let's say a man a guy converts and he does MIL and he doesn't do can he eat the car P again he had mil and no and RAB says he can't eat the says who does RAB hold like if he holds like RAB if he holds like RAB Yeshua that there's no Gus without T then why does he need a p to say that the G who has mil not can't eat from the k p of course they can't they're not Jewish command who does hold like if he like why does he need a outright and if he holds like rear who holds that mil without works if he Al like that mil Works without then why would he be excluded from the K Pas in other words says that a guy who has mil and he learns out from a cannot eat from the C if you need like if you need like Rua then why do you need a PK the guy's a guy and if you don't needa like RAB laar then why can't he eat from the P he's Jewish he's a fledged Jew so T says really he holds like RAB Yeshua that you need t i why does he need a he holds you need for a different reason he holds you can't learn out from the because the a had and Raba says in other words R the question again was if he holds if RAB AKA holds like RAB Yeshua that you need then why do we need a that that someone who doesn't have cannot eat from the k p of course he can't he's a guy so T's answer is Raba agrees you needa to be Jewish but he doesn't learn it from the same place as re Rua RAB Yeshua learns it out from the a that rebua holds that you need because the other Hada and reab says no we don't learn out you need from the fact that the a had we learn out you need from the fact that we have a by P and that teaches me that you need but we're going to focus on to's question let's get to's question clear to's question was that why do why does r need a to exclude someone who doesn't have um Mikvah if he holds like rear that you don't need Mikvah then he should be able to eat from the k p and if he holds like RAB Yeshua that you need then why do I need a of course you can't eat from the k p so I want to show you a Raja this is amazing R the is excluding a who did and to's question was If We Hold like reab elzar if we hold excuse me like Reb Yeshua that you're not a g unless you do why do I need a p to exclude you from P this is the same as without what do you if you have an Arab an Arab eats the P cuz he has a mil he's a guy so who cares if he has mil if he doesn't have is not Jewish in other words the Raj is why do I need a PK to say that a guy who doesn't have can't eat the k p I need a p to say Arabs don't need from k p mil doesn't do anything I mean today in the hospital everyone most many people have Mila and obviously you can't eat from the k p if you're not Jewish the Raj says that even rear or even the that say you need to be a Jew they would agree that the Mila still accomplishes some aspect of making you Jewish you're quasi Jewish after just the says the Raj here it's different the was for the sake of being Jewish even though you didn't complete him you already began and entered a little bit the Jewish religion now all you need is inami an Arab who has mil is nothing because that Mila was not for Judaism but if you did Mila for the sake of Judaism then certainly you're somewhat Jewish and you would think you're L from the and I need a to teach me you don't eat from the P that's a different answer than T again the that it's not or accomplishes a degree of K and this opened up an amazing uh let's see if I could I don't know how to do this how do I do this this opened up an amazing controversy let's see oh is it right side up now yeah okay in the safe faras of salant it uh Records a controversy that we're going to speak about at length on Wednesday I think and here's the story this is record reced by a grandson I believe I had the to be at his C he's buried in sanhedria near a lot of the gim of um y for example RF is buried there R burnam happens to be buried there the te is buried there shim palansky um I believe of Herzog is buried there okay so he records the following controversy this happened in the year 608 which is the year Moroccan Jew came he wanted to convert and they did a and onab before he went to the remember we said you can't go to the Mikvah until the heals because uh moisture irritates the wound was not in Jerusalem at the time he had to travel to Russia he had a fundraise and for a different cause and one of his took his place okay is it right set up now the following sh happena this guy has a and he doesn't have so is he a Jew or a he a so is he allowed to keep chabas or does he shus she said what do you mean he he went to the he had Milan he's converting yeah but he doesn't have yet and he he can't do it yet because he's not feeling well so the Shila is can this um potential G keep shabas or is he required to be shab so this Rabbi who took the place of that this G needs to write a few letters he told the guy he has to be the next day the other rabbis found out who are the rabbis many people think is a invention of the state of Israel rishan was a sapharic position for hundreds of years before 1948 the the chief Rabbi in was was I don't know who that is they question most of the say he needed to keep so when he realized that you know the they're starting up with him he wrote two letters one he wrote to of salant who was in Warsaw and the other he wrote to of yob etlinger the B AR and they both pined and he wrote to them but that he pasin that the G has to be M shab and he wants to know their opinion and both of these rabam said you're dead wrong this person even though he's not Jewish has to keep shabas and as we're going to see Sal based it on the Raja that once you have mil even though you're not a full G until you have but you're already and therefore you need to observe the shabas let me just see if I could find where responded based on the Raja that he he already entered kadas is slightly and therefore he's not allowed to desecrate the shabas he's to keep shabas now I want to show you what and Wednesday night I'm going to show you an incredible CH who he turns the whole sugya around based on a Z's understanding and the question is why theim didn't learn that way he learns because theim didn't know the Z the Z hadn't been revealed yet but once we have the Z you have to learn the Su differently but for now I just want to show you the of the the pasin um here he brings the whole Shila and the whole history and he says like this you told this G that he has to desecrate chabis and says I investigated in many but they and they told me they never saw heard such a thing that a g has to keep the shabas before before that the G has to Des create chabus before the uh full GEOS okay so theit the arire um tells us that he did an investigation and uh he never heard of such a thing that the the G has to and the makes sense that he's not Jewish yet and the banan says something incredible he says among other things and this is the point I want to share with you where was CLA Isel commanded to keep shabas at Hari when they had Mila Anda no clo was commanded to keep chabas before kab they're commanded at MAA now at MAA what was the status of the Jewish people they had mil from but they didn't have yet the was not until har so says the ban from there we see that even though when it comes to being Jewish it's dependent on the full G namely shabus is dependent specifically on Mila alone so you don't have to be Jewish to keep chabas but you have to have Mila for the sake of Judaism to keep shabas you hear this how do we see that from the fact that CL in at even before we had uh T here let's read this I want to show you this inside um he says among other things and we'll see this more on Wednesday sh right we know before remember in the story of the man what did Hashem tell what did Hashem tell CL what do you mean they weren't commanded on shab they didn't get the the answer is they got even though what do you mean to keep because that regarding takes you out of the status of being a and you would have thought that that would apply to K PES if not for the me to say for p you have to have as well now I can't restrain myself but I still have uh probably the most unusual story you ever heard for Wednesday night so I I'm just giving away I'm not giving away the story but I'll give away the ab says if you look in the Z because says maybe you'll say that was just the onetime thing that the Jewish people they had mil when they left MIT and they had uh they kept shabas a little bit later in Mara the Z says that at MAA they did the Priya the mil was by and the prio is at Mara so that means say you see that shabas is connected not to Judaism but to Mila because at the time of the PRI commanded them on shabas so too um I so why didn't say that that regarding P he would have learned that from shab because the Z says they had pre T didn't know the Z T would have known the Z he would have given my answer okay but this is a very interesting sugya of the status of somebody who has without and the such as seem to say that may be dependent on and wants to argue based on the Raja that even though we hold you need as well but the mil does accomplish something so you say how we can tie it into this week's para because we have the mitah of this week's but you know even if we didn't we would figure out away okay but uh we're the story Wednesday night telling you if you would know what it is you wouldn't be able to sleep in anticipation of it okay that is me D okay could you hear me that is D you've just experienced another Torah class brought to you by Torah anytime.com