The Forbidden Side of Astrology (What the Torah Reveals)

Astrology in Judaism is so confusing because we have so many mixed messages. We have thousands of years of of Torah sources and talking about it and we got such mixed messages and that's why it's so confusing. So let's break it down. >> Okay. >> So when people ask me if it's astrology is kosher, I like to ask them are animals kosher, >> right? So it's not a yes or no answer. The answer depends. There are kosher animals and there are not kosher animals. And it's the same thing with astrology. There's kosher version of astrology and not kosher version. >> So to start out with like so for much of history going back thousands of years >> the way people practice astrology is they worship the planets literally idol worship. So that's really why >> that's pretty obviously >> yes not okay right and they believe that the planets >> by worshiping the planets meaning to try to appease the planets favor. Yes, they they created like so they did all kind something called astral magic where they it's sorcery combined with astrology. So what they did was they did all kinds of spells, incantations, they took blood and hair from animals and they did all these things in order to serve the planet and they believed if they served the planet then so for example they connected to a statue if they buried the statue under the the competitor's store then he would go out of business because they this because that was their worship towards a star. So it's it it was used to harm your enemies and to benefit yourselves. >> Just so in case people don't follow the logistic jump, the statue was the representation of the constellation. >> Yes. Like worshiping the constellation basically sorcery. So they created all they had all these different ideas of what they did. They created all these different things and that was worshiping the planet and because the planet is happy with that worship therefore it's going to then benefit them or harm their enemies. And this was common. This was the way everybody looked at the world. In fact, as you mentioned, the Talmet talks about this was the standard. People believed that these were the false gods of the world >> before monotheism became >> Yes. big thing. >> Yes. And that's why the Torah is very clear and says, "Do not worship, do not bow down to the sun and to the moon." And the Torah stressed it over and over again because this was the common way that people practiced astrology. So that's a huge part of why there's this negative connection to astrology. So the not kosher version it's called astral magic worshiping planets combined with sorcery clearly forbidden >> right >> that's step one >> then there's another step >> called >> wait before you move to this the next step okay >> so clearly prohibited step one clearly prohibited obvious worshiping meaning serving these constellations in order to get something from them okay now I'm going to ask a question which is there's two ways I could ask the one is where would they get crazy idea that planets or constellations have any power at all or it could ask it the other way which is why is it not such a crazy idea how did they make the mistake in the first place now I happen to know cuz I learned Rambam and you mentioned in the beginning of but it's actually it's an excellent question right and so the Rambam goes into great detail about this >> and the idea was so initially because astrology is uh an energy that Hashem uses to serve the world Hashem use directs the world Ramal says that Hashem directs the world through astrology. So, but back in ancient days, first they started they thought, oh, so these planets are messengers from God. So, hey, maybe we can bribe the messengers to do us favors, right? So, they started with the correct idea that God is running the planets. But then they kind of wanted, hey, let me see if I can slip him a hundred, maybe he'll do what I want. And it started that way. And then once they were doing that, after a few generations, they became the planets. They started believing that the planets itself were the false gods itself. And that's how they went wrong with this. >> So it is not incorrect to believe that massive energy is flowing through the planets or like you call them their messengers or maybe you could even call it a conduit or my understanding is the word mazle itself. It's related to the word noisel which means to flow or to drip. So they they're conduits but the error which makes it idolatrous >> is to attribute some type of autonomy to them where like you say you'll bribe the messenger and you'll get a better message. >> Yes. >> Okay. Yes. Fine. So that step one that's clearly prohibited. Fine. All right. >> Then we have step two. There's a form of astrology called astromancy. And this is a fatalistic view of astrology. >> Okay. So first you had astromagic. >> Astromagic. Yes. >> Serving the planets to get a result. >> Yes. >> Then you have astromancy. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Step two. And so this is the Gammorra and Shabas talks about this that if somebody was born under Mars so that the people believe that if you were born under the energy of Mars you had no choice but to be a murdering bandit that's astromancy remembering incorrectly that particular passage in Tal actually the sign of Mars is referring to a a day of the week. >> So yes so so yes so there's so in that in the Gmor Shabas it first assigns it like a one day each week. Well, we do have if you look at sun day is the day of sun. Moon Monday is moon day. It is assigned every planet from the seven uh primary planets are assigned to each day. And then there's also assigned to each hour in the Gmorra shops. It breaks it down. >> We should talk about the seven primary planets because you do have a nice thing about uh Uranus and and Neptune and Pluto over there. Yeah. >> Because it it messed up the equation. >> Yes. But well, maybe we'll get back to it. But just break down the seven, >> right? So, so until 1781, so throughout history, the whole world only knew about seven planets. The sun, the moon, >> and we're calling the sun a planet. >> Yes. It's not officially a planet. In astrology, we we call it like Pluto is officially not considered a planet anymore. We still call it a planet, >> right? If you're not so bothered by Pluto not being a planet, then don't be so bothered when we call the sun. >> The sun and moon are planets, right? So we have sun sun, moon, mercury, venus. >> Wait, let's go slow. Sun like Sunday, moon, moon day, >> Monday. Okay. >> So Tuesday, that's then they start using its tiwis day. They start getting like using Latin terms. Um so Tuesday I believe is Mars and Wednesday >> um >> is mitvah. >> Yeah. Thursday they started using these methodological like Thursday and and Friday is free like so I don't >> because those are like the Norse gods but it doesn't matter right but the point is that every day >> I just want everyone to to know by the way like like >> there are pagan origins for all these etmologies and like we don't want to like talk too much about it because that's not important to us but to me at least and you can correct me because you're the expert here >> these phenomena are real phenomena and the fact that Every culture has their names to label these phenomena to me is not surprising like every language has a word for the sun. Right? So um these are the words that maybe the maybe the words come from pagan traditions and it becomes so ubiquitous that we say these words has it like Sunday, Monday, Tuesday we say these words without without hesitation. um you know or if you speak uh you know the Latin roots are the Roman you know the spoke the Romans spoke Latin that's more obvious if you speak a Latin language you know like uh lunes martes right then it's more okay and then in English it's a Germanic language and comes from the the Norse gods but the point is like this >> it doesn't matter what cultures called these things these are things >> yes >> okay and they exist and what you're giving us an opportunity to do is to refer refer to them in the Jewish way. >> Yes. >> Okay. Right. So, I just want to make sure >> cut out all the myths and all those their own cultures what they attached to an existing thing created by Hashem and they attached their words and their and we're cutting that out. That's not going back to the original basically. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. >> So, getting back to astromancy, right? So, the >> the guys born under the sign of Mars got a blood lust, >> right? So, people believe this was the common culture believe they had no choice but to be a murdering bandit. Okay. So the Gammorra does something that's very counterculture. It says no that's not true. You can channel your energies. You're not forced into any form of astrology. Astrology is here that you can channel energy. Yes, you may have an assertive or an aggressive type of energy to your personality, but you can channel it and become a butcher. You can become a moell, a circumciser. You can become a a bloodletter. You can channel it in positive ways. You don't have to kill people. >> Right. Okay. So then the the prohibited aspect of the astromancy is the fatalism. >> Yes. Yeah. That's what it means masal it means there's no fatalistic astrology to the Jewish people. People confuse that. They think that means that astrology doesn't apply to to Judaism. No. The Gomorrah the whole Gmorra and Shabas 156 is addressing astromancy fatalism. That does not apply to Jews. We're never stuck. We never you know the rashi says it directly through through chuva and staka you're able to overcome it >> right right okay so correct me again if if I'm wrong it is a true statement to say that the astrological conditions under which you were born do have an indication of your temperament your personality strengths and weaknesses but to say that that will seal your fate that you will have to behave a certain way or live a certain That's where it becomes theologically pro problematic. >> Absolutely. And but again, you have to remember this was the common way that everybody believed that it worked during those that was conventional wisdom. >> That was conventional wisdom for you. You were born under. >> So this is really wild that the Torah that the Gomorrah was able to say no this is not how it works. even though everybody believed this. In fact, we had there was a nation called the Calaldanss and they were non they were non-Jews and they were famous for their astrological uh abilities. But >> that's modern day Iraq, >> right? >> You know, isn't is that where Abraham came from? >> Yes. Yes. The Calaldians. Yes. Yeah. And so the thing is >> I was just in Detroit the other day. They still have Calaldians in Detroit. Huge community. Oh, yeah. That's a Yeah, it's a >> Wow. Wow. still around. I wonder if they still do astrology cuz that's >> I actually I know a guy who was actually in this studio. He's a he's his parents are originally from Baghdad. He lives in Detroit. He's a Calaldian. I'll you know maybe after this I'll call him up. Ask him if they have any astrology. >> Funny. >> But so the problem is the Calaldanss used astral magic and astromancy the fatalistic versions. In fact, the Gomorrah says it says that on that same Gomorra in Shabas 156 on the other side, a calaldian told Rabbaka, the famous Rabbaka, that his daughter is going to die on the day of her wedding. >> Okay, >> so that's the kind of fatalistic prediction. >> There's nothing you can do, >> right? That that's a right and says no, she ended up not dying. She gave charity. But the point is that's how they perceive it. >> But maybe you can elaborate on this. there actually was a threat and she was able to circumvent it or or or to transcend it because of a merit and you mentioned the merit of of charity meaning to say it's not so black and white it's not like it was wasn't ludicrous that the Calaldian said that she was going to die in her wedding day there was such a threat so like how do you >> so that's so that's the thing with this astrology the problem is when people become specific so I'll give you a good example in the Torah we had pyro 's astrologers they twice they they made astrological predictions. One is that they when they when the Jews wanted to go out into the midbar into the desert to to worship Hashem, he said the astrologers said, "No, we see that Rah, the planet Rah is before you and there's blood in the desert. Therefore, you're going to be killed if you go out into the desert." Right? Now, >> and they meant it, >> right? Now, they were right about the blood in the desert, but they were wrong about death. It was the blood of Brisma. That's what they saw. So, you can see an overall general energy, but you can't predict a specific thing. and there's going to be a specific outcome. That's what you cannot do because astrology is not doing there's no >> you said there were two examples. >> Yes. Another example is when they they said that they saw that the the savior of the Jews is going to be born and he's going to be a male and therefore and he's going to have trouble with water, right? And so therefore they they said like let's go and drown all the male babies of the Jews. Water will he he the water will be the bane of his existence. >> So that's what we'll do. We'll throw him in the water in the Nile. >> Right. Right. And and in the meantime, what was the was the water of strife where he hit the rock to produce water and that's why he didn't know. So there was some it was connected to water but not through you know drowning the babies right so so that's again they looked at it as specific things. So if any astrologer ever tells you a specific outcome run away. Yes. Not kosh not true. Nobody can predict a specific thing. But understand during those days everybody lived with this idea and it was terrifying for them. >> And here's another thing. So you know the Rambam my manades is famous for being against astrology. So people go what are you talking about? Rambam says it's all nonsense and it's not >> right. >> Here's the thing. The Rambam explains why and he brings example. They wrote him a letter. a famous letter that he wrote from the the Jews from France wrote to the Rambam and he responds about astrology >> and in it they wrote that the astrologers are telling them that they're going to die when they're 45 and their children are going to die when they're still here and their fires their house is going to burn down and there's going to be all these accidents. They were being told astromancy fatalistic predictions. >> So the Rambam went crazy and said this is nonsense. You don't have to fear it. nothing they're saying is true because and he and I love that the Rambam every time brings an example of why it's not true. So you know so he says that if if Ruven has no choice but to kill Shim and and Shim has no choice but then why does Hashem tell us what's the whole point of the Torah? He was like saying this invalidates the whole Torah. Why? Because you don't have a choice. He says don't kill and I have no choice but to kill. So that's why he bombs and he says it's nonsense. It's a he's talking about fatalistic astromancy and you can see it in every example that he brings. He brings four or five different stories of Ruven and Shim and each one is a fatalistic example and that's what he was against. Okay.