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The Fast of Tammuz: Halachic and Historical Perspectives By Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz
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Shiva Asar B'Tammuz 5784 - July 23, 2024 Rabbi Breitowitz's Tuesday Shiur is sponsored for the 2024 academic year by Rabbi Refoel and Sharon Auman in memory of their parents, Edith and Reiner Auman, z”l, יונה בן צדוק ז״ל & אסתר ע״ה בת רפאל הי״ד and their son Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu Auman, z"l, הרב שמואל אליהו ז״ל בן הרב רפאל נ״י www.ouisrael.org facebook.com/ouisrael #OUisrael #torah #judaism #torahlectures #halacha #jewishholiday #beithamikdash #jerusalem #fastday
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Transcript
Auto-generated transcript. Not time-synced to the video.
okay uh good morning everybody I hope
hope you're well uh once again it's a
tribute both uh to the OU and to
everybody who
comes that even on a fast day uh we try
to continue the
T it's still relatively early in the
fast so we're not yet uh you know
totally exhausted and the like
but may it be a among other things that
and
uh uh we we cover the various Mitzvah
and more or less in a very approximate
way we we've been tracking the paraa and
even today I'm going to track a little
bit about Paras Pinas but I want to
digress a little bit to talk about the
fast day what the 17th of Tas is and
what the origin of the 17th of tamos is
so one has to know that the concept of a
fast in the month of tamos although not
the specific date already appears in
nvim the last Nai or among the last
n are the last prophets at the very
beginning of the second temple after the
70 years of the Babylonian exile and the
navi Zakaria speaks about four fast days
that he identifies by the month counting
from Nissan as the first month he talks
about the fast of the fourth month
Nissan or the fast of
Tas the fast of the fifth month which is
[Music]
of the fast of the seventh month which
is not referring to yum that's in the
Torah but it's referring to the fast of
Galia
Andi the fast of the 10th month which
happens to be Taves so the navi tells us
that even though these are fast days
they shall become days
of and
Sim so the Novi is not telling you to
fast it's the other way around the Novi
is presupposing that people are aware of
these fast days and it's simply telling
us these fast days shall
be to
but since thei is telling us that these
are fast days so therefore these fast
days are considered to be a little bit
more they are considered to
Beal the phrase cabala inal does not
mean mysticism or zoa or anything but
cabala means a received tradition from
the
prophets now it's interesting from the
standpoint of
pure divala just equals midra meaning to
say there's no such thing as a
do other than the mitzvos that mosenu
got from God so even things that are
communicated by the prophets are
technically rinic fast days they are not
Torah fast days and indeed the prophets
could not even Institute this by
prophecy this is the famous law based on
LA
the is not in heaven
and a prophet cannot inovate based on
Prophecy so if theim talk about a
certain
practice uh they are either recording
something that's in the Torah obviously
the nvi talks about chabas and kasas or
thei
as is enacting Tak so Hally uh these
vast days are considered to be mitraan
although they have a little bit more of
higher status because it's raban from
the but
Hally cabala is actually no different
than a pure midra there is another
reference very indirect and oblique and
not very clear to these fast days and
that is the end of millas eser which
also occurs in the tail end fact this is
actually before in the tail end of the
70 years of the Babylonian exile when it
talks about how the Jewish people
accepted upon themselves the holiday of
por as they accepted upon themselves
divos the fast days vakam and the
prayers and the maam say this is not
referring to Tanis Esther because that
that was a later fast that is even post
talmudic but rather it's simply saying
the same way they accepted the four fast
days connected to
thean they accepted upon themselves the
holiday of porim so it doesn't tell you
the four and it doesn't tell you where
the four are but the say
that is a reference the four fast days
that are enumerated in the p in zakar
now the gamar in rashash
makes a very very interesting point the
rashash says on one hand these are fast
days on the other hand they are
described as
May how do you reconcile the disconnect
so the gamar says there are three
stages in the H status of these fast
days he says when there is Shalom a term
to be defined in a moment they become s
and
not only are there's no obligation to
fast you are prohibited to fast these
are holidays Tish will be a
holiday says when it is a time of active
persecution against the Jewish
people the Jewish people are being
persecuted by enemies then you are to
fast but then there's an intermediate
stage it's not a time of great
prosperity and peace but it's not a time
of active
persecution so the gar says an
interesting thing it depends on what
each Community does
ratu if a community now there's not an
individual person it's not that each
person decides but if a community
decides they want to observe the fast
Miss on it then they become obligated to
observe their
minu if the Community does not decide to
fast they're
not so we have three
categories in the Z of Shalom it is a
holiday in the time of persecution
against Jews there is
a fast when there is neither
persecution nor particular Prosperity
which I'll I'll describe that in a
moment then it is tooy on ratu or low
ratu communal Acceptance Now obviously
these terms need a lot of
definition and the way Rashi defines the
terms is that shalom means you actually
have a basa
mikash and the Jewish people are not at
war with their enemies so according to
Rashi that is called a Zan of Shalom and
at that point they become yamim toim
which would indicate at least that at
least for some of the second temple
period there was no obligation to
observe those fast days of the
firstan uh
so is the other way that's when there's
active persecution so it's interesting
if we ask
ourselves how do we
characterize
Zaman so Zaman is clearly not
Shalom because we don't have a Bas of
mikdash
so the question becomes these days are
not yum to yet that's for sure the
question becomes are they obligatory
fast days or are they only based on
communal
acceptance so many many maam say in
places where Jews are not actively
persecuted the of the fast days although
I mentioned tissue might be different is
only mitam Minh and uh except in of the
community now the interesting question
becomes well what does that mean what if
my community or the United States let's
say more or less even though things
happening more or less we would not call
that a place of active persecution you
may differ with me but generally
speaking on the other hand there are
places in the world where Jews are
persecuted so does that mean if Jews are
being persecuted anywhere it becomes a
Shad everywhere or is it literally
Community by Community but I just want
to explain that this is why there are
many many leniencies in these fast days
except for Tish which I'll get to simply
because the status of the fast day
today was is only based on communal
acceptance it is not based on the
ofala and as a result there are
leniencies meaning to say at a time like
the
Holocaust it could very well be there
was a
M Caba to fast and maybe some of the
leniencies for not feeling well and the
like might not apply Lisa you'll find
that there are kilos in which women are
routinely
told uh supposedly women are weaker
although I I I don't I don't see that
but uh but there don't not to fast I am
told there are certain
yesos where the students are told really
not to f
except for Tish I'll get to why Tish is
different because it's only a minut you
know you know therefore therefore you
could be make for any type of weakness
or or the like but the point I want to
make is theic
basis of the
kulos is only because we treat ourselves
as a category
three meaning if you would be in
a the or of persecution persecution
against Jews the of fasting would beik
so that that does raise an interesting
question which I don't think anybody has
addressed that I'm aware of that is
right now we're in a time of
War so it's interesting if we are in an
active time of War would that make the
tan cabala now again I have absolutely
seen no one address this but but here's
the
nafina last year if somebody would say
oh they have a
headache we would kind of say okay you
can eat you have a headache but that's
only because it's a ratu low ratu
situation so if somebody were to ask me
this year they have a headache although
I can guarantee you a posk is going to
say the same thing as he said last year
and in fact I have said the same thing I
said last year but
analytically I wonder if that's EMS
because the halic basis for
leniency is because of the ratu and the
latu meaning once the fast gets upgraded
to D
cabala at that point the leniencies
might not
apply you see so I don't know I think I
actually think that the logic of what
I'm saying is a very very strong logic
but but I I hasten to add that the D of
has not changed meaning to say the same
leniencies that will normally be given
uh any 17th of thas will be given here
as well although I think we could
question it now the gamar then says TI
is
different TI the actual day of
theik there is
a to
fast now here there's Aus how to
learn some understand it this
way that the difference between Tish and
the other fast days only pertains to the
neutral situation where there's not
Shalom and there's not
persecution Tish is
still which is why the leniencies that
we might apply to the other fast days
we're not going to apply to
Tish but when it's a time of Shalom you
have the Bas of
mikash then even Tisha would be a day
of that's how some learn others learn
which means in other words they did not
observe the fast of the ninth
of during the 420 years of the second
temple at least until the Romans started
uh Waging
War on the other hand the rambam in
Parish
mishas actually
says that they observed the fast of the
ninth of a
even during the 420
years of the second Bas of
mik that when the gar says is
a it does not only
refer to the neutral ratu and latu it
even refers to Shalom although I believe
even the r is mod that when mashia comes
and we have a third B MK we're not going
to keep this fast the r is not talking
about that but the rambam is talking
about the bi chain and the question
would be very obvious why would we
fast over the
destruction of this first bam mikdash
when we have a basa
mikash why are
youel over theb bikash when you have a
bikash so there are two
reasons that would apply reason number
one is that the second basam mikdash
never fully
replaced what we lost in the first bam
Mikes in the first B Mikes we had naua
that more or less went away at the time
beginning of the second temple we had
the UR Vin which was again the Coen
God's breastplate which communicated
Divine messages now in the second Bas of
MDES we had Theos people people confuse
the Kosen with the V let me just digress
for a
moment
theen is the breastplate that the co G
war that had engraved on 12
Jewels the tribes of B Israel that is
not the that is called
the and The Jewels are called
theen when we say we didn't have the V
we did have Theos Coen God did have the
Kos in fact that's the famous story of a
jewel was lost and they had to buy it
from a non-jew who didn't want to wake
up his father D Ben that happened during
the second temple period by the way that
story itself is very interesting the
gorah uses dma
benina a non-jew from ashalon to
illustrate how the greatness of kav and
it mentions he didn't wake up his father
even though he lost a big deal with
selling the jewel because the key to the
jewelry case was under his father's
pillow he didn't want to wake up his
father and his reward was that next year
he got a par aduma and he was able to
sell it for the profit that he would
have made okay now let me ask you this
let's imagine your father is sleeping
and you're offered $10
million a deal but you need to retrieve
something under your father's pillow you
don't wake him up you follow D benina
dad wakes up and you say dad I want to
tell you how much I honored you you know
I gave up a $10 million
deal isn't that great well I think Dad
would be a little annoyed dad would say
what type of idiot did I raise you know
of course you wake me up I mean Hally
it's absolutely clear I mean a simple
example if your father would tell you to
wake him up you should wake him
up uh if and if you know for sure he
would want to be woken up for this type
of deal of course you wake him up so D
Ben actually did a stupid thing so the
gamar is not quoting him to show what
you're supposed to
do the gamar is just quoting how devoted
he was to the Mitzvah it happened to be
misplaced his particular application was
not correct and we're not quoting it to
tell you what you should do if you're
faced with that situation but it shows
us his heart it shows us that he was
willing to give up all of that money and
therefore it's a muser as to how
seriously we should take keep it of
again this is an important point to keep
in mind that sometimes when the gamorra
gives you a story there are other
examples of this as well it's not
necessarily telling you what you should
do but it's communicating a certain
attitude that you should have even
though the particulars are not something
you should do okay but be it as it may
that shows us that the breastplate and
The Jewels did exist during the bi
chainy but what happened was the
UR was a piece of parchment that had it
was like a software package that had the
names of God on it and it would be
inserted in the fos of the
breastplate and that would give the
jewels the power to communicate
prophetic messages from God so since we
lost propety prophecy we lost the or so
the second Bas of mkes we didn't have n
for most of the period we didn't have
the we didn't even have the arones with
the because before theban by the hands
of the
Babylonians Yos a right one of the last
righteous Kings concealed the
aresh in tunnels under the B mikdash
where we believe it's still
there right Raiders of the Lost Arc
notwithstanding uh the is a concept in
fact um occasionally there are
Expeditions uh trying to find it
although it wouldn't here I would refer
the Raiders of the Lost Arc it's not a
good idea uh and and the like fact
somebody came to the with kind of a
detailed plan to find where the Ain is
and the took the paper he read it he
burnt it and he made the person swear
that he would not uh talk about it to
anybody so different thing so the point
I'm making is going back to the rambam
the rambam says what they
fasted on the 9th of
a even when there was a second
bikash and you may ask what's the logic
of that because even in the second basa
mikdash we didn't
regain what we lost in the first basa
mikdash we were still mourning over it
in addition to the fact that other than
around 100 Years of the hasm monian
Archy the whole period of the bay cheni
we did not have any
independence meaning unlike the first B
of mikash where there was Mal Yuda Mal
based of it the whole second temple
period the Persians the Greeks the
Romans a 100 Years
of but look at that as continuation of
the Greek monarchy they don't even
consider it to be such a Jewish monarchy
so so that's reason number one why they
fasted in the second basa mikdash over
the loss of the first basa mes reason
number two is actually given by r salic
r salic very interesting he
says that it was
known that the second Bas of Mikes was
not going to last it was known it was
going to be
destroyed and it was known it would be
destroyed on the nth of of the same day
as the first Bas of Mikes but they
didn't know when so salvic suggests
every single ninth of
of there was a great fear and
trepidation that this might be the day
of theban so he points out therefore
there was a difference between the way
Tish was observed during the 70 years of
the Babylonian exile and today as well
and the way it was observed during the
second temple
period during the 70 years of Corban and
today Tish is
AOS we are mourning something we
lost R salic
suggests that during the second temple
period it was not a
veos it was
praying that the Sor of the Corban
should not come meaning that the other
Sho should not
drop so the first explanation I gave you
actually shows there was an AOS even in
the second Bas of mikash the second
explanation says that the fast of was
not based on AOS it was based on fasting
that a should not happen the SAR of
theban shen which they knew was going to
happen and they knew it would be on the
ninth of of but they didn't know when
although the I'm not sure why they
didn't know when because the The Book of
Daniel actually
foretells that it would be 490 years
after
the but whatever it is that requires a
certain amount of interpretation and
many people did not have uh that level
of knowledge or interpretation okay so
the reason why we are more again so
technically the reason why TI is a more
fast
than the other fast days is because the
other fast days BisMan if there's not
active
persecution
[Music]
only certainly today the ram says even
during the second mikash certainly today
there's no ratu or low ratu about and
that is theic categorization of why the
ninth of is more is more
now when we look
specifically at the fast of the 17th of
Tas the mishna
Inus tells us five tragedies
happened on the 17th of
tamas and five tragedies happened on the
nth of of and that is why these days are
days of fasting let me first mentioned
the Tish ones although we're not there
yet because they're actually easier to
follow uh tragedy number one of
tishu it is the day that it was decreed
that our forefathers would die in the
desert over 40 years and not enter the
land because the morim came back on the
eth of a and they gave their negative
report and that night which was the
ninth of a the Jewish people the not the
women the women had a in Hashem but the
men cried and sobbed and complained and
Hashem said you have made this you have
cried for no
reason this is the day
of right so that's tragedy number one
the gazer that the D midb died without
coming into AR Israel gazer number two
is the destruction of the first B Mikes
by the Babylonians
gazer number three is the destruction of
the second B mikdash
490 years later on the same day by the
Romans uh in the year 70 gazer number
four is the destruction of
betar and this is already a reference to
the Bara Revolt remember the temple was
destroyed more or less in the year
70 again it's still in kazal it's it's
not clear if it's 68 70 if you translate
the dates but let's let's use 70 that's
the common date that is given and around
65 now now it's interesting after the
bikash even though we call that the Gus
but you know I mean many Jews were
killed and many Jews were taken prisoner
and sold into slavery but it's not like
the Babylonian exile when destroyed the
Bas mikdash he literally emptied out the
country uh the Romans didn't Jews
continued to live in ER Israel after
theban many of them migrated from yush
which had become a war zone to the Galil
the Sanhedrin for example relocated uh
to the Galil Jewish life continued in AR
Isel even after theban in spite of the
devastating tragedies and loss of life
I'm not minimizing that in any way but
Jews continued to live in ER Israel and
created kilos and not only that but the
post korban years did not really have
anti-religious legislation the Romans
didn't care about chabas and kashus and
Torah and circumcision do what you want
they destroyed the basa
mikdash uh in order to squash the
rebellion of the zealots against Roman
Authority and as we know our own were
very much against that revolutionary
activity and the warned that if you do
this the bikes is going to be destroyed
so theik was not I know this is a little
different than the way it's commonly
conveyed was not an anti-religious act
per se it was really an attempt to crush
a a political revolt and the warned that
this would be the consequence of that
Revolt however uh 65 years later we have
a second Revolt the bar
Revol Shimon Ben
K uh that RAB AKA believed was mashia
potentially and he called him Barba the
son of a star waged war against the
Romans and initially he was extremely
successful he liberated some 900
Villages he minted Bara coins that you
can uh you can get rabi AKA thought he
was
mashia maybe we'll talk for another time
was AA wrong or potentially could he
have been mashia it's very very
interesting question there is
archaological
evidence that the foundations for a
third basa mikdash were laid under the
guidance of RAB AA on the Temple
Mount so things looked very very good
but then hadrien adonus kaser retaliated
with overwhelming overwhelming
devastating Force
and uh kuster's Last Stand so to speak
was in betar where barba's armies were
decimated uh the rebellion was crushed
and I want to point out all of the
anti-religious things of the Romans R
aa's flesh gets comb by Iron Combs that
is the aftermath of Bara not the
aftermath of the Corban and that's when
hadrien uh passed laws about Brit and
about Torah learning because he was so
determined of course we know that he did
not let the
corpses of haruga be buried for three
years miraculously they didn't decompose
and eventually he let them get buried on
the 15th above three years on a week
after the fall of betar so betar was
absolutely catastrophic the numbers the
gamorra gives for those who died in
betar are so astronomic I mean tens of
millions that that even the moral says
these are understood as gzma they're not
meant to be taken literally but there's
no question the casualties were much
much greater than even the
bikash and the religious persecution was
much greater than
theik and Jews were not allowed to live
in for over 200 years it became hadrien
dedicated the whole city of Jerusalem as
a temple or a shrine to Jupiter and
that's Alia
capitalina and the remnant of that Roman
city is found in the cardo in the old
the old cities now cardo is a shopping
mall something whatever it
is that's the new aara right the cardo
used to be the shrine to Jupiter now
it's the shrine to consumerism so I'm
not sure if we advance that much but
okay that's the new aod Zara of of of
our time so be it as it may we'll talk
later about this in more length uh the
destruction of
beta was on the nth
of right so we have
theim
bonbin Shen bet 135 65 years after
theban and and the like and the final
tragedy which is really connected to the
aftermath of beter so it's going in
chronological order the F the five
tragedies are a straight Chron ological
line
is the city of Y was plowed over with
salt to destroy its
fertility this actually was a common
practice in Roman Conquest uh they they
did this a lot it was not even unique
toam they did it in other countries as
well but this too happened not the same
Tish but shortly Ian I don't know if it
was the next year or two year whatever
it was but shortly after
the fall of betar Y was plowed
over now there is a bit of a mlus I
actually took a position here is but it
is a mlus some Say ne is plowing the
city with salt destroying its
fertility others say it refers to a kind
of surveying thing that when the Romans
took over a territory and dedicated it
as a temple they would PL the boundaries
to kind of demarcate this as their
Square so according to this
interpretation is not referring to
plowing the whole city but it means
plowing the boundary lines so this was a
uden rine place for 200 years Jews were
not allowed to live in yalem at all they
were not allowed to live in this now
maybe people snuck in I don't know you
never know I mean I know a guy who
actually visited the cotel between 48
and 67 under fake passports and
everything else and you know he was
quite literally putting his life in the
line so people sneak in and people do
all sorts of things in fact another
person told
me this person loves Adventure sometimes
he just seeks out Adventure that um you
know he came with the baseball cat
somehow he got into an Arab country when
Israeli passports were not recognized at
all and he's like having a a Coca-Cola
or a coffee with an Arab and the Arab is
just talking about you know when I see a
he's like peeling a uh peeling an apple
or something with a knife and he says
you know when I see a Jew all I want to
do is like take my knife and you know
cut off his whatever uh says what do you
think about
that and and the guy had this real
feeling that this Arab knew you know
some you know so there are people who
love to play dangerously live
dangerously uh so who knows what
happened but for 200 years no yiden came
toam the only thing the Romans allowed
was to rub salt in our wounds literally
every nth of people Jews were able to
come and they could walk around the
perimeter of the city and to this day
there is an old old Min of Y that some
people follow even today that you walk
around the walls of
yam on the n9th of a and that is an
icient custom that dates from after the
fall of betar that was the one
connection Jews were allowed to have I
mean obviously the Romans were mocking
us but the Jews were allowed to have in
yusim so whether it's on ground level or
on top of the wall whatever this is
actually an old old minog uh that dates
dates back and the like these are
certain mug that are not always recorded
you know the other familiar Min you know
that Jews do not walk under the Arch of
Titus in Rome the Arch of Titus is the
triumphal
Arch that commemorates quite literally
the destruction of the B mikdash uh
Judea Captiva right Judea has been
captive and uh it shows the Jews and
chains the manora it's interesting that
the picture of titus's manora is a Kasha
the
rambam interesting question how reliable
do you look at the Arch of Titus know
the rambam has
a that the manur like kabad if you look
at the kabad minus like it comes out
like in diagonal lines it's not rounded
and that is actually a diagram of the
rambam himself the rambam for whatever
his Rya was the rambam maintained that
the manura was not rounded it was a
straight diagonal coming out of the
Central Central shaft uh the question is
that the rambam's Sha directly
contradicts the Arch of Titus that
indeed gives you the picture that we're
familiar with with of the rounded manora
so the question is okay who says the
Arch of Titus has n on it and on the
other hand it's not clear to me why they
would lie I I mean it's not a question
of I mean why would they make up so I'll
leave that uh for again for another time
but these are the five tragedies of the
ninth of so now let's go backwards a
little bit and let's look at the five
tragedies of the 17th of
Thomas which are actually a bit more
obscure
the first tragedy
is relatively clear that was the day
that Moshe Renu broke the
L when he saw Theo coming down
from and the Garian Tinus you know makes
theone that from the sixth of Sion when
he went up and he came down on the 40th
Day so the makes a that that was the
17th of
were
smashed of course one could ask even
this which is the dating is not not a
question but still given the fact that
we got the second
Ander why would it be that we're still
in a over the but the answer is that
kazal tell us that the sin of the golden
calf continues to be a source of
persecution for us in every that every
single Onish clel gets there's a little
bit of payment for
the I should remark too interestingly
enough that 17th of tamas happens to be
the Y site of
myov Weinberg R Noah
weinberg's older brother and indeed as
was remarked when he was nter that's
also when a great great God great dies
it's like the L of the Torah are are are
smashed so that's the first tragedy okay
now the second and third
tragedies are a little less
clear one
is
H the city was breached or the city was
broken
into and the third is butel
the daily offering that is brought in
the morning and in the
afternoon was
discontinued so I want to look at these
two together and raise the question are
these
interrelated events or are these two
separate things now H here what is that
referring to first temple or second
temple so the
garus as the following in the book of Y
it actually tells us that the
Babylonians began their Siege around
jerus neter under his General
Nar was not in ero but his General did
it on the tenth of tavas that's why the
tenth of tavas is the beginning of the
siege against
Jam that Siege lasted for more than
three years
but in tamos the Babylonian Army managed
to break through the city wall so
hu the Babylonians broke through the
city wall culminating in the destruction
of the temple three weeks
later but here's the problem in the book
ofo the date that is
given for nadar's Army breaking through
the
walls is the ninth of
Thomas not the 17th of Thomas so how can
we say the 17th of thas is
huah
huah is the ninth of
Thomas so there's a m the B and
thei how to resolve this
contradiction the Babylonian talmud says
there is a different between the first
Bas of
mikdash and the second B on mikdash in
the first Bas on mikdash the Babylonians
broke through the wall on the ninth of
Thomas in the second basa
mikdash vespasian's Army he was he was
not Emperor yet broke through the wall
on the 17th of
Thomas so in reality we ought to fast
both on the ninth of
Tas and on the 17th of Tas
but the didn't want to give us too fast
so close to each other although I don't
know why Galia is is close to Yer but be
it as it may they didn't want to make
two fast days for
Huf and therefore they went with the
second mikash because that is the
tragedy we are most connected to because
that is the relatively more recent one
so according to the B
therefore hco by the bias reow was the
ninth of
Tas H by the bay was the 17th of Tas so
we fast on the 17th of Thomas even
though we think about both
tragedies interestingly enough I have to
say there is no day for the second
mikdash that corresponds to
asares and I don't know why
asares is the beginning of the
Babylonian Siege of the city
and we have a fast day for
that what is the day of the beginning of
the Roman Siege of
yush I I happen not to know I could
probably find it in Josephus or
something but the one thing I do know is
there is no fast day commemorating the
beginning of the Roman
Siege and that Siege was awful there was
massive famine I mean we have kenos the
book of yo that Siege was a devastating
Siege and it also lasted several years
like the Babylonian Siege so I leave
with as a question why is there no AAR
analog for the beginning of the siege
against jerus by the bayen but be it as
it may the B understands
Huish is the ninth of Thomas H
Bish is uh 17
that's the
B
the says all
other oh yes I just want to go back I
want I want to point out that that means
actually the amount of time between
and in the bias was a whole month the
nth of Tas to the nth of of in the bayen
it was three weeks between the 17th of
thas and the ninth so according to the
B the uh time between H
and was a month not 21 days thei gives
another answer to the
contradiction the actually
says how you this is hard to understand
but in the Deep grief over
theban even the prophets became
discombobulated and they just got their
dates wrong meaning in both the first
temple and the second temple
H was the 17th of
Tas why is it recorded the ninth of
thas because in the aftermath of the
Corban people were so
confused that they kind of said oh nth
of nth
of now people ask me well what are you
talking about is a of God he's writing
down his prophecies from God so he
writes down a wrong date I mean it's
coming from Hashem Hashem didn't get
mixed
up the answer is I think Hashem wanted
us to understand how devastatingly mixed
up people were so he specifically didn't
get when he's dictating too he kind of
shuts off the prophecy valve when it
comes to the dates yo puts in the date
that he remembered which was the wrong
date now that actually means
therefore that even the first Bas
mikdash was a period of three weeks
between
H and mikash 3
weeks he thought it was a month but it
was 3 weeks so this is a and you just to
be aware
of um yeah so we then come to the next
one the Corban
toid was
discontinued the simplest
explanation and this is the one that I
think most people assume but it may not
be the correct
explanation is that this simply means
from the time y was broken into even
though the temple was not destroyed for
another 3 weeks the corbon toid could no
longer be brought conditions were so
difficult I mean the enemy is in the
city Etc which means in other
words is for a 3-week period meaning the
corbid
stopped three weeks before
theban and that was a concept quence
of in other words you connect it once
the
Babylonians well that's another question
is is is that referring to the B some
say it's only the B Shen but once the
Romans at least entered the
city the corbon toid could no longer be
brought a shortage of animals now now
that doesn't mean by the way even that's
a question that there was total
cessation when it
says that does not have to
mean that the T was totally
discontinued but it means it's to to was
discontinued meaning to say there were
days they couldn't bring
it meaning in the 21 days maybe they
brought it whatever 10 days 15 days
meaning if you don't bring it every day
that's called butel
the of theban was nullified so according
to this which I think is the normal
interpretation that most people
assume but is referring to the last
three weeks
between
and so they go
together but
tell in fact
however
Rashi in a bit of a you know uncommon
place in the Book of Daniel Rashi and
safer
Daniel actually learns very very
differently and Rashi seems to
understand Bella referring to the B
cheni not
thean and in the Prophecies of
Daniel actually the technically not
prophecies because he was not commanded
to communicate them but in the
visions of Danel
there is a vision about the destruction
of the second bikash Danel already
experienced
the and it
mentions that the oppressor which is
Rome Yash shall
stop the animal offerings and the meal
offerings
sh for half a
week for half a week
he shall
stop Rashi explains in the Book of
Daniel that shabua does not mean seven
days but shua means seven
years and therefore
sha well would be three and a half years
but Rashi then says and doesn't mean an
exact half
either and Rashi records a
tradition that during the Roman Siege
which lasted several years the tamid was
discontinued three
years before the
Corban not three weeks before
theban three
years before
theban and even though years is less
than half of seven but you know it's
it's approaching that and therefore you
divide something in half even if they're
not equal now here too Rashi certainly
does not mean that for the last three
years of the Corbin Bas last three years
of the bamas they didn't bring the car
carbonos they brought carbonos all the
way to the end but it means they could
no longer depend on it on a daily basis
the tamid became not tamid after that
point
uh indeed Josephus records that even
after the Romans entered the city
coronos were still being brought and he
describes kohanim bringing corbus when
arrows are going over their head in fact
he even describes rival Jewish fa
factions were fighting each other with
arrows going back and forth and the
Gohan dodging in fact he quotes Titus
now again Josephus is not always a
reliable witness because Titus was his
protector
and the like uh but Josephus says he
quotes Titus as saying you know I don't
really have to destroy this city if I
just wait long enough the Jews will do
it themselves now granted uh josephus's
accounting of anything is not 100%
reliable uh but this actually has the
Ring of truth because remember kazal did
say that the second bik was destroyed
because
of so Josephus portraying the Waring
factions in the city makes perfect
perfect sense kind of like the
Democratic party now yeah I got the
storyside
theall yeah so now I'm going to mention
another thing okay so so far I gave you
two different
explanations
about one is the discon continuation of
the carbon tamid at least on a daily
basis once this city was breached which
would just mean the last 3
weeks the other is rashi's
interpretation that which which seems to
be the only the bayen ban we don't have
any teaching like that that as a result
of the Roman Siege even before they
broke into the city three years before
theban meaning the 17th of thas three
years and three weeks three years and
three weeks before the the tamid could
no longer be relied upon
that's Rashi in safer
Dan and then there's a third story
of that is way way way way before more
than a hundred years before
theban and this is the waning years of
the hasmonean
dynasty a Jewish Dynasty a Jewish
m in which two brothers were vying for
control hin
and Aris
tuas and Hines is in control of
yam aristas this is mish a civil war
aristas is trying to gain
control and he put Jerusalem Under Siege
again this is not the Romans this is a
Jewish
fighter and there was still a deal that
every
day uh they would lower some coins in a
basket
and the other side would still provide
animals sheep that they could take up
and bring as a Corbin meaning even
though we're fighting each other but we
want there to be carbonos in the Bas of
mikash that itself is interesting and
one time in an act of derision they put
a
pig in the
basket and it mentions how the pig
clawed the walls and emitted a a squeak
that could be held say it could be heard
for 400 paros meaning was such a Biz
such a
shame so according to that let me just
explain
something according to that
b was actually a one-time event it
doesn't mean like you always say oh the
Corbin T was no longer brought this is
hundred years before the Corbin but it
means on that day the tmid was not
brought and this was such a shameful
degr
in way of about of of of blaspheming God
that it's memorialized in infamy so he
say interesting point but does not mean
any type of permanent
discontinuation it's a commemoration of
that event now let me just point out
that there's a lot here that kazal are
concealing with this because basically
what aristas did
was he enlisted in his civil war against
orinus the help of a Roman general who
was
nearby whose name was
pompe and he
invited the Roman troops to help him out
in what he thought would be a friendly
Mission you know mercenary type of thing
pay them and then they'll get out Pompei
actually used this as a basis to add
Palestine to the Roman Empire
so the conquest so to speak of
Rome of AR
Israel occurred through the
invitation of Aris
tuas this was around the year
BCE so again just to remember this there
the Romans got a foothold in ER Israel
63 BC
CE through Pompei and what then happened
was the Corbin was the year 70 Common
Era so you're talking about 63 years
plus 70 years whatever that is what does
that add up to 133 so the Roman
domination of er well actually the
Romans dominated us afterwards but from
the Corban from the Roman entry to the
Corban is 133 years okay so that is the
idea of so we have three explanation
of one is it's referring to the last
three weeks the other is the last three
years and the third is it's a one-time
event that's going back to hinis and
aristas which Not only was tremendously
degrading but it also gave the Romans an
entree into ER Israel
culminating 30 years later in theban
basik right so those are three of the of
the five I'll mention the other two just
very quickly and I actually probably
continue with this we're in the three
weeks after all and that is uh the
fourth one is also very
ambiguous
apus
aamus burnt the Torah first of all who
is
aamus don't know who he is some say it
refers to
Pompei and various ways and the second
problem is even if you identify
aamus burning a Torah is of course uh a
tragedy always but this is not the only
time the Torah was burnt in the book of
Mal which records manasha burned to sa
for Torah so toras have been burnt
before what is so unique about ausus
burning the Torah that we make a fast
day because aamus burnt the Torah so
some say the following s t he actually
burnt
the Torah written by Moshe Renu that was
kept in The
KES meaning it's not just burn as tragic
as every burning of the Torah scroll
would be this is the Torah that was
burnt so that was the special thing and
the F fifth thing was and again we're
going to talk more about this an idol at
some point in the Roman times there was
an idol that was put up in the BET
mikdash and tradition has it that was
the 17th of Thomas be I'm going to leave
four and five for a later time I'll
discuss it next week at more length
because number one let's try to identify
aamus and let's try to identify when an
idol was put in the temple because the
most famous incident was
Caligula who was nuts wanted to put an
idol of himself in the temple and
Josephus records there was a mass Riot
and the Jews didn't let him do it so as
far as the history goes there was an
attempt to
put but it was not successful and yet
the mishna indicates thatum was put in
the so we'll have to try to discuss what
that history is so for whatever the
reason the shivas or B events are a bit
more shrouded in mystery than the Tish
events so again I'll try to go over this
more next week have a good