The Drafting of Yeshiva Students to the IDF | Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz

today's share is sponsored anonymously again very grateful to Mr or Mrs Anonymous or maybe Rabbi Dr Anonymous and thank you very much for your uh Torah and your humility as as well uh I do have one interesting announcement I want to make um starting next week next Tuesday um we're actually going to do a new new subject the okay are we yeah uh starting next Tuesday we're actually going to do a totally new new topic uh and that is uh you know uh two weeks ago there was a special kenis in honor of the rambam there was an event that was going on uh and I was one of the speakers there and that actually inspired me to actually contemplate uh a course or a series of samor on the letters and introductions of the ramban which a very interesting msoa in and of itself so next week um again it'll you know I don't imagine the composition of the year is going to change very much probably the same people who come for one share will come to the other share but we will we will be focusing uh on on the rambam and some of the rambam's writings uh those that are a little bit off the Beaten Track uh the letters the hakot and and the like and then we'll see that that could actually take quite a long time I mean that could be a year for uh easily more than than a year but we we'll we'll see how it works and that's what we'll try to do uh but for today I do want to finish up uh something I did not get to last week last week you'll recall we spoke about the hostage deal and whether halaka permits the idea of releasing terrorists or murderers into the population in order to save the lives of Kim and I think all of us have such mixed emotions about this on one hand there's a tremendous Sim in seeing the people coming home and at least many of them seem to be in reasonably good health and that of course is a is a an occasion for great great rejoicing on the other hand we have grave reservations over the fact of what is the price that is being paid here and uh God forbid what could the future consequences be so it's a very very difficult troubling emotionally complex uh type of situation and last week we discussed the aspects of it and once again I always tell people uh whenever you're given a multiple choice in You Know M or M always go with a choice C because that that will always be the right answer and ultimately it does turn out to be a makus but you understand the logic of it the internal logic of it is uh balancing the clear and present danger of existing people versus the potential potentiality of future danger to the public and how do you make that Eon how do you make that that balance and that's what we talked about last week but towards the end towards the very very end uh we touched a tiny little bit on the issue of uh the draft and who is obligated to serve in the in the Army and although uh you know they say as the saying goes in English maybe it's from Shakespeare I know Angels you know Fear To Tread where fools go and uh I I fear that How does it go Rush Fools Rush In Where Angels tread to go so I I I fear I might be more of a fool than an angel today uh because it is a very very hot emotional topic and again uh to be serious I mean in Israel it's not a joking matter because it quite literally is is a matter of life and death it's not simply a question of doing this job or doing that job Etc so uh it is very very emotional and and people get understandably uh very upset over it um I'm just going to try to try to be objective and kind of as as the motto of Fox News we report you decide I'm not here to I'm not here to tell you uh what to do or how to feel even I just want to present the sides the sides of the argument be what you might call halakic journalism uh to once again Express the two different two different views and as to what are the different justifications for the different uh positions uh I will say uh that uh the K view is actually undergoing a certain amount of re-evaluation and flux some of it isn't because of external pressure no doubt about it but some of it is also internal that even within the traditional k Community there is the beginnings of a a debate about the military service and partic ipating and it is coming from within it is not only coming from without so things change in fact the truth is in the world there are a lot of things that are being at least reconsidered rethought the Army is one of them uh secular education barut is another one of them meaning things are not as absolutely black and white as they were for uh for many many years yeah the question is this change is pragmatic or is it that they realize that yeah so so yvh as I as I say some of what's going on is simply pressure from the government or even pressure from General Society so as a result uh let's compromise a little bit because otherwise things will be worse but some of it uh if you read for example there's a very nice journal online it's Journal published in Hebrew and English it's called I don't know if you ever ever came across it it is edited by a very very young man ruer uh who's and I think he has a law degree as well and he's involved in a lot of things uh and uh is a journal that has articles and again all all of it within the K Yesa community and you can see some very you wouldn't you wouldn't imagine it a number of Articles talking about the virtues not not just the but even the virtues of military service and how it can refine character and give discipline and Etc so things are being debated things are being debated beyond the mere giving into depression okay A little bit of legal background before we start I mean everyone knows that the exemption for people who are learning Torah which is not necessarily exemption but learning Torah does go back to 1948 the very beginning of the Medina uh benan uh some things don't change he needed a coalition he needed uh religious parties a good Israel which was then a religious party now it merged into deor but whatever it is uh he needed AA as part of his political Coalition and one of the demands that was made was that uh Yeshiva students be exempt from military service at the time in 1948 there were fewer than 500 full-time Yeshiva students in the entire country beneran had a philosophy that uh this would wither and fade and just disappear so to him it was small change he says all right we'll exempt 500 people next year it'll be 400 people 300 people in 30 years 50 Years it'll be down to zero because the new Jew will no longer be the European Gat who sits on the benches of the beta medish and therefore beneran did not view the draft exemption as a long-term problem that the state of Israel would have to contend with and as a result that became the that became the law of the land now we know that barash of course the k Community has grown the Yeshiva Community has grown uh we now have uh thousands and thousands and thousands and as a result for sure benan would not have agreed to it then but the law was the law and as you know that in Rec years uh that that law has been struck down by the Israeli Supreme Courts uh by different Etc so for various reasons Nano managed to prevent its implementation again for political reasons not it's not because Nano is a lover of Torah uh in fact it was so interesting I think it just reminds me of how religion is invoked to be to be convenient uh witkoff is let me finish witkoff is was Trump's negotiator for the hostage deal so wiov called natano I think it was two chabas ago and said we have to talk so natano says he does not conduct meetings on chabas that's that's very very interesting uh wiov said well this shabus you're gonna meet okay whatever uh so it's interesting thatoi becomes from you know when when politically it's expedient other times other times not yeah yeah said no we have to make it more so they said we make and said situation now yeah well that is interesting I I would okay I didn't understand that way but I'll I'll I'll look into it I'll accept what you say uh Bean of course uh Bean was not totally personally Orthodox but ban was very very committed to tradition uh he grew up in brisk so the brisk RV was his town Town RV in in brisk and in that sense uh I could understand why he would and be inclined to extend it huh a favor yeah yeah yeah so so be it as it may as you know the issue of of and draft is a very big issue so let's set out both sides of the case uh first of all what is the case for compulsory military service so we do have a category in called Mitzvah there are two types of Wars there is what is called a Mitzvah War an obligatory War a Mitzvah war and there is what is called a discretionary War which is called two types of Wars the Torah recognizes the rambam explains falls into three categories and according to ramban there would be a fourth category category one is the war against Amal which in a literal sense we do not have today Amal as a nation is extinct category two is a war against the seven indigenous nations of Canan which also is no longer applicable because they're extinct but category three of Mitzvah is still tragically very very relevant in our day and that is Laos Isel mad to save the Jewish people from an enemy that tries that is trying to destroy them in other words a war of defense against an aggressive enemy whoever the enemy is doesn't have to be amalik doesn't have to be the Seven Nations uh a war of defense is Hally characterized as mil Mitzvah now what are the implications of that I'll get to in a second now what is a this may be quite surprising m is a non-defensive war of aggression that sounds a little strange are you telling me H would permit the state of Israel to just declare war against uh turkey against Kuwait against whatever just to get get oil so here you have to understand that it is true that there is such a but the rules are so strict that for all intents and purposes it could not be done number one you need a m which we don't have number two you need the consent of the Sanhedrin which we don't have and number three this is the biggie you need prophetic authorization by through the medium of the Coen God's breastplate the in other words you can invade Kuwait if God gives you permission to do so now why would God give or not give I have no idea but suffice it to say is a dead category today there is no h justification for a non-defensive war of aggression so cross that off the list so we're left with only Mitzvah and of the category of Mitzvah we only have one out of three and that is a war of defense is called a now let me just add the ran would add a fourth idea of Mitzvah because remember the ramban is of the view that living in erel is a Mitzvah and that includes Conquering the territory that's within the biblical boundaries so according to ramban ramban might not agree with this even if we're not under attack in any way but if if a foreign nation is occupying something that is within the biblical boundaries of er Israel which suffices to say are much larger than the political boundaries of the state of Israel ramban would actually permit and maybe require a war of aggression like Putin and the Ukraine right other words he says Ukraine was part of Russia so we're going back and getting it well according to ramban is so so technically there are some nuances here what makes something a mitvah according to Ram what make something a is the danger that the enemy is opposing to the Jewish people and therefore in order to rescue protect the nation from uh death and destruction there's a Mitzvah mitvah according to ran the mitvah would be would apply even if there is no danger to people but in order to secure and even conquer the territory that is within the bounds of arel now this would have a lot of Kamas uh for example would hak permit giving up lands for peace according to rambam at least in theory you would be allowed to give up land for peace if it would work it never works so practically uh it's not a good idea but in theory one could give up the land in order to save lives as I say it doesn't work but in theory that would be possible according to ramban that would be impossible because if there's a Mitzvah to conquer the land then by definition you can't give up what it is that you've conquered okay be it as it may based on either of those definitions the war against Hamas does qualify as mitvah because it is a defensive War both to get back and and to protect the population from bombings and terrorist activities and as well it's a question of securing the territory of of Israel now that makes it a now now some have made the following argument some have pointed to a passage in the safer ham mitzvos of the r now this is a little strange because remember let let's focus for a moment on two books the rambam wrote which are kind of int related his large safer his huge safer which is the total codification of Jewish law is called mishna Torah which means the second Torah because the Ramba made the claim all you need is thees because that's the written Torah and my book which is the oral Torah the gor all the laws of the gamar and you have everything of course the rivid and other people were incensed because what the rambam seems to be doing is the rambam says don't need gamorra anymore I've I I went through the whole gamorra I told you what the laws are so for about the gar why do you have to go to m discussion I'll just tell you what to do rivid was very incensed and as that resulted in a whole debate and actually in light of our new course we we'll be talking about that so that's the mishna Torah mishna Torah is from Soup To Nuts the entire structure it's much more complete than the because the only gave the laws that apply today Shar does not give you the laws of coros or the laws of Purity and impurity or the laws of par aduma in the rambam every single area is addressed now the raban wrote a much smaller saer which he actually wrote before the mission Torah that is called saer hamitzvos which is a brief discussion of the 613 mitzvos uh paragraph you know for the 248 positives the 365 negatives but obviously for so it'll say something like uh you are not allowed to do M on chabas fine but he doesn't tell you what the malas are for that you have to look at the Mish Torah it's just a listing of Mitzvah so for example you know kabad pushes one of the Reb's projects was that people should try to learn rambam because the rambam gives you an overview of everything so uh for the more learned earned people they're encouraged to learn a chapter or three chapters which is actually brutal three chapters of mishna Torah is a brutal brutal Pace uh one chapter is plenty hard it's more difficult than deomi but for the more learned people they push either one chapter of mishna Torah or three chapters of mishna Torah a day uh for people who can't do that they do saer Mitzvah which is an easier book uh one interesting thing about saer mitzvos that I I think I've talked about this before just mentioned it as an aside is sa Mitzvah is a three-part book although it's short part two as a listing of the positive Commandments the 248 part three is a listing of the 365 negatives but part one is kadash part one are 14 rules that the rambam utilized in determining how you count mitzvas because you see the problem we have a tradition that there are 613 Mitzvah in the Torah but if you open a and you count how many times God commanded us to do something you get a lot more than 613 you get something like 5,000 so how do you get the 613 out of the 5,000 so the rambam had to develop because the gamar does not give you any guidance there's because gamar does not give you a list the gar says 63 Mitzvah it doesn't list them so the rambam developed this is really a tour to force but there no no one has ever no one had ever done this before the rambam was not the first enumeration of mitzvot but the rambam was the first uh the first one who compiled what you might call scientific methodologies for what do you count what don't you account and uh a lot of it you'd imagine is that a lot of details are assumes for example bringing a sin offering a carbon now the Torah says the co shall and the Coen shall sprinkle and the Coen shall burn and the Coen shall eat so technically there might be 20 Commandments but the rambam says that only counts as one bringing a sin offering in accordance with the procedure outlin right shabas there are 39 things you're not allowed to do in shinus don't cook don't write don't tie don't uh carry do we count that well if shabas would to be 39 you'd run out of the 613 pretty quickly but the answer is no it only counts one do not do MAA on chabas and MAA is defined in 39 ways so so the rambam developed all sorts of criteria regarding uh what's counted what's not counted and that's how he gets this 613 they're kind of categories that that that that's correct that's correct uh and therefore you aggregate many details subsumed under a single Mitzvah and that by the way is a very fertile source of debate ramban who wrote A Commentary and a criticism of thez most of his focus is on those of Okay the reason I'm bringing this up is that in theim he just mentions generally because he says I don't want to repeat this every mitz I'm going to tell you some things up front he says certain things require a Mel and when there's no Mel the Commandments are not operative and I'm not going to repeat it every time he lists in the in theim those Mitzvah and he mentions actually he says require aik and a now this is actually a very perplexing Passage first of all this rule that require aik and does not appear in the mishna Torah so it's a little odd that in the actual elaboration of the laws of war the Ramba mentions no such requirement very perplexing but the other thing that's very strange is could the rambam possibly be literal here that we are authorized to fight a war only when there's a bet mikdash and a m what what does that mean Kamas attacks us our response is can't do anything because no B so it seems clear to me at least that when the r says require he is only referring maybe to the wars against uh amalik when they're non-aggressive in other words the to wage a war of aggression against amalik of the Seven Nations but the third category to rescue the Jewish people from an active enemy that is trying to destroy us as a matter of Common Sense we have to have that power the reason I'm bringing this up is that occasionally you will find in the anti-conscription that this is not a mitvah because there's no M and there's no bet mikash and they're basing that on a text in the RZ vot but I think that cannot apply to a defensive War because because if you follow that position you have a reducto ad absurdum that we have to let ourselves be slaughtered because we don't have a m to make now that's besides the point that Ru cook made Ru cook made the point of course Ru cook died before Isel but but he made the point that the shilon the ruling authorities that the Jewish people designate as their governmentally has all of the powers of a Mel so according to rev cook governmental decisions would be considered Mish other people argue but the point I want to make is that even if you assume that Mel is literal and we don't have a Mel today the rambam is not limiting defensive Wars now I wish the rambam would be more explicit here because because I I will admit to you that if you literally read the passage in sa Mitzvah you're not going to see that distinction but I think it's a matter of basic logic and I actually it bothered me a lot actually I very rarely because I get so many emails I am very very very uh careful not to bother people with emails because I know what it's like on the receiving end but this was a rare instance where I actually consulted uh with some poan sent by email and uh they more or less came to the same conclusion that any defensive war is a mitvah even in the absence of Mel and even in the absence of s HED yeah yep yep yep yeah that actually that actually is a uh thank you that that actually is a very important observation yeah the question is this we right we we're we're debating over a label we're debating over a nomenclature is something aah or is something not aah and I brought up the argument that based on the rambam's literal in the absence of and there is no it is not a Mitzvah now the question is okay let's assume it's not aah but there may be other mitv that still require that we rise let's say it's not a war say it's not a war uh but there's a mitv this is do not stand by idly over someone's blood P to intervene to save uh to save people uh so obviously the rambam doesn't mean if it's not a Mitzvah we just let ourselves get slaughtered there will still be other however however there is a very big difference whether you you can subsume something under Mitzvah or whether something is just part of the general Mitzvah of saving and I I'll address that but but you are you are correct meaning even though I do believe it is azah but the truth is the of defense and protection does not rise or fall on the nomenclature but but I first want to talk about the M Mitzvah implication and then I'll I'll try to address the other thing okay so let's assume that it is a mitvah as many many po have acknowledged so what are the implications what are the implications of something being called aah now if you remember in the so the T says in time of War there are a number of people who are exempt from military service the Tyra itself gives you exemptions uh the person who bet Tred a woman and did not yet consummate the marriage which today is you know you know you never really have that situation uh a person who built a house and did not yet live in it a person that had a Vineyard and E and didn't yet eat its fruit and even a person that's scared because he may have a debilitating effect on combat morale and these are people that are exempt from military service so the gamar in or the m in says the following when do these exemptions apply they apply to if there's an optional war of expansion meeting all the conditions I said these people are exempt but when it's everybody has an obligation to participate whether it's in fight in combat or the back lines and it uses the phrase the is pulled out of the room he getting married go and then it mentions somewhat surprisingly even the kala now there I'll talk about that a little bit about because because that would support which which nobody no one in the world has ever ever ever ever agree to uh but I'll come back to what well let's leave g a little bit to the side I want to talk about the the males uh the men uh for a moment so the pus of the Miss sa is that there is no exemptions for Mitzvah now the truth is strictly speaking there are exemptions even for Mitzvah which to some degree some degree even the Army today uh will recognize as a matter of secular law for example sh after consummation of the marriage thean is given a year uh to be uh with with his wife Etc so there are limited exemptions but but the pus is the following the pus is that once something isah and mitvah has virtually no exemptions so what exemption is there for somebody who's learning Torah or Yesa or or whatever it is there seems to be no exemption at all now that doesn't mean everybody's going to have combat Duty because Bas not everybody has combat Duty in the Army anyway but it does mean that there would be a to participate in the military effort so so argument number one for conscription again I will give you the other side is once it's a we have the m in there are no exemptions in no now I just want to point out that this is where labeling actually becomes important because if you were to predicate the obligation of it might be possible to say well other people are doing it so uh it doesn't have to be me you see what I'm saying that's why the labeling of becomes very very crucial here in terms of the and of course the precedent that there's no exemption goes back to the Ty itself with B God and B ruen remember that after the Jewish people conquered the land east of the Jordan and that land right B God and B ruen and half of Minasha they wanted that land east of the Jordan because it was very fertile so MOS Reno gave them a home musm and he said well you can take whatever land you want but your brethren are going to war kvu Po and you're going to Simply sit nice and pretty a leard so if you remember Mosher rabeno imposed a condition you will get this land only on the condition that you will cross the ardan and fight with your brethren and indeed the book of Yeshua records the book of Yeshua records that the B God B ruen fought side by side with their brethren for more than seven years and then there's a whole ceremony of discharge like yua kind of discharges them at the end of their service and said you have lived up to your commitments you can now go and rejoin your your families it's all like official T that was made for discharging B Ru really because yosua wanted to record L that they did not Sher their Duty because in the course of years people would look at these tribes at the other side of the Jordan and think oh they never participated in conquering ER Israel and therefore they need it to be a memorial that they had done so right so this would be the argument based on Mitzvah now the counter yeah yeah yes yeah yeah yeah so again as I said it is true that you could predicate the obligation onah you could predicate it on don't stand by idly over your friend's blood you could predicate it on the basis of but the reason why the label ofah is an important label is that when you base the on other things like nees uh a person would have the right to say well if somebody is handling the situation I don't have to do it in other words like anything else if someone gets a heart attack and hatah comes and brings them I don't have to do anything so in in order to create a universal obligation you need to subsume it under under D now now the counter text is a passage in the rambam again and the passage in the rambam is not so clear-cut uh and it's it's really based on the way it's interpreted it requires a double jump let me just tell you what it is in the laws of shme which is talking about nothing to do with Wars per se uh at the end of the rambam has as he often does the rambam often ends his halic discussions with a bit of philosophy or muser that's uh one of the stylistic charms of the mishna Torah is that unlike the which is just rule after rule after rule the rambam also is Rule after rule after rule he'll often end with a kind of inspirational message or a philosophical Insight not always but very often he does so in he digresses to discuss the special role of shet Ley in CLA Israel shet Ley in the time of the temple at least was a tribe that was not given a defined portion of lands uh they had 48 cities scattered throughout ER Israel uh and the rabam explains that God wanted to free the Levan from agriculture from having to get involved in business he wanted them to be the teachers and the scholars the Tom of and that's why they were dispersed so that every tribe would be connected to the influence of the Lev uh so their dispersal is precisely so their influence should diffuse CLA Israel 48 cities basically every tribe designated four cities for the L that that's that's how it works and again in sa for yahushua uh the exact cities are listed k for example was a levite was a levite city we know from later no was a levite city but a Le 13 of those cities were given to kohanim so that's why it's called No the city of kohanim that of course uh sha massacred because they gave food and shelter to D okay so the rambam then goes on and says because the Torah wanted shavid Ley to be totally panoi and is not so the rabam creates I'll discuss if there's a m for this a new exemption that is not explicit in the Torah at all that is an exemption of shet Le from Mil in order to enable them to continue their Torah learning I actually it's a bit of a question Torah learning or Torah teaching that's going to be very very critical but there's a shabet Ley exemption now the rambam does first of all what's the source of the rambam that shavid Ley is Exempted uh the Torah does not say in any list of exemptions that shavit Ley is exempt so the truth is the rambam does have a m from the it's not in the gor the does indicate sh Le is now the question is well is that only or even again but some posit that there's a shav Ley exemption even from mitvah because of their role as again is it Learners of Torah or teachers of Torah that's itself an interesting question now okay well at most that would that would exempt the Lan maybe right but that how does that cover everyone else so now they go with another passage of the r after the Ramba mols the spiritual grander of shavid Ley the ramban then says the following it is not only shet Ley that has this distinction but any individual who devotes his life to serve God and to study his toorah Hashem will take care of him like a shave it Le now now again you have to be very careful there I should have put this on PowerPoint or something the rambam does not say and therefore you're exempt from war the rambam is dealing with a spiritual idea that the special protection that God gives to shav Ley God will give to every individual who truly becomes like a shav Ley now the B Yesa argument is that's why it's a double step the r exempts Ley from war and that includes that itself is questionable number two the rambam says anybody can become a Ley in that sense ah therefore that carries along the exemption of War so first of all it's not clear the ra the rambam didn't I mean I mean listen obviously when the rabam says everybody can become a Ley he doesn't mean that in everyway he doesn't mean if I'm full-time Colo I can get the second alyah right he doesn't mean I can eat myish so so obviously the ram never meant that in every single way you become like a Ley so it's a big interpretive leap to apply that idea to aen Yeshiva but but this is the argument that shave of Ley now the big question and again I'm I'm I'm trying to be very dispassionate I don't want to uh be political and that is does the ROM's description pick up every kid in yesh the rabam is talking about a person he's describing a person who gives his life to serf Hashem and especially he emphasizes who teaches Torah he's m nees he sacrifices he's totally devoted now again U Yeshiva guys are great I mean some of my best friends uh you know uh and and they're C they're certainly doing a worthy Endeavor the question is we have this Mitzvah idea in which there's no exemptions unless you can find one and we found in the rambam potentially what you might call shavit Ley exemption and then extrapolating it to a person who qualifies as shave at Ley so the question becomes does that cover everybody now I know it's a very difficult question how do you decide who decides how do you decide I mean I'll give you an interesting example how sometimes things can be misunderstood this is from the United an example from the United States um my main rebi inas Isel was a very very great manakov mosha keski there's even an Aro biography of him as a yeah that's how big is right that's the measure right there's a b and I'm even quote it in a footnote so I'm even I'm even in the book but anyway uh Rabbi ksky actually served in the US Army in 1948 I'm sorry during World War II so 4344 even though the United States always had an exemption for full-time theological students so how did he do it because every student had to go before a draft board which had a a rabbi on it whatever Jewish student and um they had to declare that they were studying to be a member of the clergy so Rabbi kesy was said he was not studying to be a rabbi he says because he was studying Torah lishma so he said are you studying to be a rabbi he said he was told to answer yes but he said no I'm not studying to be a rabbi I'm studying because I believe this is the most important thing in my life so that was deemed to be a personal preference and he actually was drafted he was in the the US Army for around a year and a half they went to his parents went to a federal court and they actually uh got him out in that in that way so the point I'm making is that sometimes it's hard to know who's a shavid Ley who is not but all I'm saying is if the exemption is predicated on shave at Ley first of all as I say it's not even clear from the rambam that everybody be a Ley would even apply to that exemption but number two who's shavid Ley shav Ley is not everybody now and number three let me just mention that a shav Ley exemption does not apply to a family that is not in full-time learning in other words how how do you get from Tor someone who's totally devoted to Torah to a general exemption what does one have to do with the other so there's a second argument that is made so one is BAS on the rambam there's a second argument that's made which is a powerful argument but it's not clear how relevant it is and this is called the argument of shmat which is a bit of a strong term and that is the claim is my child goes into the army he will come out a cofair he will come out an aorus he will come out a m shabas he will come out uh promiscuous sexually and he will will be totally assimilated to secular Israeli culture I cannot allow my child to be exposed to the corruption of that environment and I'll tell you the truth the truth of the matter is psychologically that is really what's going on in other words even if parents or even if rabbis or even if rashash shivas invoke shavit Ley full-time learning the real thing they're afraid of isma now the truth of the matter is back in 1948 benguan had a certain vision of the army as the great Melting Pot the great leveler in which everybody shares the same cultural experiences and this is part of boran's vision that maybe Orthodox k type Judaism is g to vanish Etc but the truth of the matter is that although today there are still individual commanders that do have that agenda that I'm not going to deny it but as a SST the Army is not not really committed to that and you know we have number one uh the Hester units uh and again I have to say that some of the Hester young men are Kesh kadash I mean there's there's no one no one no one I shouldn't say no about it but in in the ISA world that could compare to them in terms of their uh m neish in terms of their Devotion to learning and the like now are people adversely affected in the army yes there are are there people who shine and and and continue to grow yes there are are there people who come from in the army yes there are so y for y so I'm not going to deny that there are risks I'm not going to deny that there are dangers but but here is the mindset instead of making the argument oh it's bad for my kid spirituality therefore we don't go the the the the the the the orientation has to be the other way we're really M to go but we have to try to make this environment a better environment now you don't use it as an excuse you don't say oh you know uh it's a bad place therefore you say we got to make it a good place uh now the other thing which is maybe a more drastic proposition it's not clear to me that this is an exemption from M Mitzvah I mean if there's a m mitzvah where do you see you're exempt from Mitzvah because the environment is not as firm as you'd like it to be meaning even if it's true that may be a cost possibly ofah so the What's called the schmad of course is a an exaggeration schmad means forced conversion I wouldn't quite call it that but but the but these are the two points in other words the two arguments that the uh world has is one is is the Tor argument which is based on the rambam in and the other is the fears about the religious environment in the Army and as I say um this is not Ben guan's Army uh the the Army itself is again there are individual commanders that are abusive there there still is that phenomenon but overall uh the Army is trying to work out a situation where religious needs are going to be accommodated uh yeah I think that if you have a good foundation being in within the secular world not shake your I I I yeah yeah can't grow up in a you know listen I I what you're saying is 100% right in theory it is right in theory and that's how it should be practically however you know we cannot deny that yeah I'm going to stop there are there are kids who have gone but the truth of the matter is that's true in college that's true in ging the Working World meaning it happens to be I know myself when I was a rabbi in Maryland uh I knew kids who had a Jewish Orthodox education from kindergarten through the end of high school and even went to Israel for two years and then they went to a University of Maryland or a day College within one semester one semester they stopped being sh shabas so that's maybe that's a very negative testimony about the quality of our Ed education but L said it is unfortunately a reality so as I say I wanted to try to just give you the different sides of the argument and as I say uh everything is being reconsidered now so I think things are going to be changing in various ways but be we should be Shalom and at that point we will not have to draft anybody okay take care