The Criminal Attorney Who Keeps the Government in Check | Joe Amsel

A guy confessed to killing his mother and she was and turned out she was alive. The number of people that I have seen who have talked their way out of criminal charges is absolutely zero. You have a right to remain silent and you should exercise. >> Your personal opinion. Sure. >> Do you think there are innocent people uh incarcerated? >> Absolutely. There are mistakes that you can make that you just can't come back from. And this woman who was like three at the time 3 weeks postpartum gets arrested and spends 24 hours in central booking in Manhattan. We've gone to trial and I've been successful. I've gotten acquids on cases where clients they had overwhelming evidence against them. I'm talking about DNA, multiple eyewitnesses, you know, video surveillance. I mean, only guilty people take p >> and and I mean that is that is just not true. >> Yeah. Now, did you ever defend somebody that you uh thought inside that he's guilty? Today, uh we have a uh highly respected criminal defense attorney based in New York. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> Um with years of experience. His name is Joe Amsel. uh he has a reputation for for both. He can be fearless in the courtroom, but he can also be compassionate for his clients. Uh we will talk about the consequences of incarceration, and we want to educate the public about the realities of law, uh crime, and justice. Joe, welcome to the Struggle Podcast. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. Thank you for coming. Appreciate it a lot. Um before we get into anything before we start let's first um discuss the difference from uh federal and criminal. What's the difference of uh the crimes? >> There's criminal is sort of the the broad term and then there's there's crimes that are charged in state court and crimes that are charged in federal court. >> What are the differences? >> The differences? Well, I mean there's different crimes that the federal government has jurisdiction over. Um generally things that uh involve interstate commerce that is uh federal jurisdiction generally uh and then state crimes us will involve stuff that happens within the actual state. Mhm. >> So that's the difference in terms of the consequences, the severity. Um the state and federal system, particularly comparing it to New York, where I primarily practice, the difference between state and federal court is pretty stark. Um there's a significant difference in terms of sentencing. In the federal system, they go by the federal sentencing guidelines, which are sort of like a point system um that drive the the range of months of a sentence. In the in the state court for nonviolent crimes, there's generally sort of a a broad statutory range and the judge has discretion to pretty much do whatever he or she wants within that range. uh in the state system there are mandatory minimums that apply. But so there's there's a lot of differences uh in terms of the potential exposure in terms of the potential sentencing as well as also the the types of cases that you will see in in state court versus federal court. There are there's a lot of overlap. There's a lot of similarities but there also is a lot of differences. Now, the way I understand it, and tell me if this is true, um, the f the state is more lenient than the federal, >> you know, no, I I I wouldn't necessarily say that. Um, it really it really is a case-by case basis, you know, analysis. Like, for example, I just recently tried a case in state court in which my client was uh had a had a prior violent felony. And what's considered a violent felony is is pretty much dictated by by statute. The law defines what's violent. Ironically enough, not every crime that necessarily involves violence is, you know, you or should I say, you can have crimes that don't involve violence that are considered a violent felony. And sort of the classic example of that is like burglary in the second degree. If you burglarize somebody's home, >> that even though no one gets hurt, there's no violence, there's no weapons used, that's still considered a violent felony, largely because of what the potential dangers are when you go into someone's home. >> Um, but sort of the definition of a violent felony is pretty much whatever the legislature says it is. So, this guy was a had a prior violent felony in his past and he was charged with um possessing a gun. And um because of his his history, he faced a mandatory minimum in the state system of seven years and a maximum of 15 years. in the federal system with that kind of history and the and the and and the charge that he was charged with sort of just straight possessing a gun probably would have had a sentencing exposure that was significantly less and there would be there would have been no mandatory minimums. So the state system could be more lenient on for example like white collar crimes. >> Um >> but the federal but but I wouldn't say that's a blanket statement that the federal system is more is more is stricter than the than the state. >> Um like I said there are a lot of differences but to say that they're sort of blanket one's more lenient to one's more harsh I think is probably an >> oversimplification. I see. Also, you were an assistant to the DA in Queens, right? For a lot of years >> about Yeah. >> How many years is this? >> I was I was prosecuted for about five years. >> Five years. So, you were actually on the other side of the aisle. You were you were working for the government. >> Yeah. It's it's a very it's a very normal it's a very normal career path for people that that do defense work like I do. >> Um, having been a former prosecutor, right? Um and and it it gives you an insight into sort of how a particular office functions, how how cases are built and you know you get you get a uh a good sense of how how the case looks like from their side and then you know >> uh what did you see over there when you used to work at the DA's office? Um is the government here to protect or [clears throat] is the government here because they have they have to have a certain amount of cases and this is like a badge of honor. this is what we do and if we get on a case, we get it done and nobody fights with us, you better take a plea. Can you talk about that? >> Yeah, sure. So, I think that by and large, most prosecutors want to do the right thing. Um, I think nobody becomes a prosecutor with the intent on screwing people over or throwing the book at people. >> Um, that being said, are there abuses? Sure. Because any system that is made by man for man is necessarily going to have right the human element to it. And and you know have I seen have I you know seen prosecutors you know sort of go hard after someone because of personal vendettas or you know emotional investment in a case. Absolutely. the the the I think the the the more the more common issue that you see is what I like to call inertia like a bureaucratic inertia where you have sort of a policy that gets applied and it's sort of a one-sizefits-all policy and there's no real um analysis of of of every single case whether a particular policy should or should not apply and it's sort of like well this is our policy take it or leave it you know nothing I can do about it? Um, the other thing that that always is of concern is especially on the state level, prosecutors are political animal. I mean, they're they're elected, right? And so when they're elected, you have the issue of public pressure. >> And the one thing that every politician and every bureaucrat that works within a bureaucracy is always concerned about is the public perception of what it is that they're doing. And so it's always easier to sort of say, look, you know, we have an identified victim or a witness who's telling us X, Y, and Z. We're not about to dismiss a case, even though we have doubts about their veracity. Even though we have doubts about whether they're telling us the truth, even though, you know, their story kind of sounds a little fazy, but you know what? Look, like this is what they're telling. And and so there's a there can sometimes be this sort of tendency to kick the can down the road and let someone else make the decision. Let the court make the decision. And a lot of times you have a judge will say, "Well, let the jury make the decision." And then sometimes you end up having to go to trial and fight cases just because sometimes people don't want to stand up and be courageous and say, you know what, I'm going to take the slings and arrows and I'm going to, you know, um and I shouldn't say do the right thing because you can always understand why they're doing what they're doing. Not always, but for the most part. But sort of that's the like I think the you know the true danger sort of like oh there's political pressure. There's sort of an impression that this is what we have to do under these circumstances and then you know once they stake out a position and there's really um it's very difficult to get them to back off of it. So that's that. But I but I think do prosecutors wake up in the morning and say oh we're going to nail No, I don't think so. I think that there's there's uh I think most >> there's a certain integrity there. >> Yes. and and and when there was a breakdown in, you know, in the integrity and and when there are I mean, and there have been issues in the past, but I think that for the most part, they're out to to to do justice, to do right by the public. They have a an important role and the role is to keep the public safe um and to be zealous advocates for their client, which is either the government or the people. And and and I I mean, I have nothing but respect and admiration for the overwhelming majority of my adversaries that I come up against. >> Yeah. So, let me ask you a question and your personal opinion. Sure. Do you think there are innocent people uh incarcerated? >> Absolutely. >> All the time. >> Absolutely. >> You're 100% sure that 100%. >> There are people just through the >> What what is there? But what I mean that's been proven. I mean, there's been people that have been exonerated by DNA and so forth. So, the fact that there are people out there that have were innocent of the crime that were ultimately >> um you know, convicted is absolutely happens. But what what I think is more common and which doesn't get as much attention is that there are people out there who are guilty of something but not guilty of everything that they've been charged with. And those are the folks that I think are the far more common. >> I see. I see. That makes a lot of sense. Now, let me ask you something. Um, if someone falls into a dispute >> with a neighbor or with a friend or in business or with somebody, how does a person manage a dispute so he doesn't get involved in these uh criminal activities? >> So, I'm not going to give any legal advice um disclaimer. >> Yeah. >> But you got to just be careful, you know, don't do anything stupid. Don't say or do anything >> physical physical even texting. I think uh you know in business people are like you know people owe each other money or they deliver the material and the material is not paid for. I'm going to go now and I'm going to pick it up. Now this is a crime. Um >> self-help. >> It's called self-help. Yeah. >> Yeah. Texting they would say that this is harassment. So where I want to get to is everyone has a right to arrest another person. So let's say if I want I can get you arrested now. So the question is what do you make of this? I mean I can say whatever I want. This guy hit me. He has to be taken in. >> Yeah. >> Now you go through the system and that guy comes out and he arrests you. Now how does that make any sense? >> So that's probably the single most shocking revelation to many of my clients who have not never been involved with the criminal justice system. Right. >> And and I'll tell you a funny story. I I I literally just resolved a case for a client who I'm not going to get into too many of the details, but she she was a doctor, okay? Um great great reputation, complete misunderstanding with a coworker and the coworker made an allegation and got this woman arrested and I mean based on total fictitious nonsense but got her arrested. Yeah. And this woman who was like three at the time three weeks postpartum gets arrested and spends 24 hours in central booking in Manhattan. And ultimately I got the case dismissed and ultimately you know there was a lawsuit that we filed and were successful in that as well. But the bottom line is is that people are most shocked particularly people who have never been involved with the system is that all it takes to get someone arrested is to have an identified civilian witness say I accuse. Yeah. >> And and it's it's almost like, you know, when I was a when I was a prosecutor, I had cops in my office all the time. It was sort of like a joke. You know, you'd have cops sitting in the office and you you know, you'd walk into the office and you'd say, "He hit me. I have substantial pain, annoyance, and alarm. Arrest him." And really, that's all it takes. That's all it really takes. >> And so, I think that to sort of to protect yourself, again, I'm not giving any, you know, legal advice, but >> you know, be smart. You know, like people send text messages. I've seen I've had cases, you know, I'm going to come get you. Like, what does get you mean? Like, you know, I had a case uh where where a guy texted a landlord. It was a landlord tenant dispute and he said, you know, >> I'm going to uh if you want to fight or something, I'm going to beat you and expose you to the community >> like like beat you like does that mean like beat you in a in a landlord tenant dispute? Does that mean like beat you physically? Does that mean beat you, you know, in a in a lawsuit? like what does that mean? And yet this guy went and got arrested and and you know and and all the police need is an identified civilian witness and there's like a there's a joke within the police department is it's called CV states means complaining victim states mean all you really need to arrest somebody is just like complaining victim states and it could be the most fazy story in the world. It could be a story that literally doesn't make any sense whatsoever and yet >> she said it and so >> let's go. And this is dangerous in the in the in the workforce also because there's these women who accuse people of sexual harassment or any other thing >> and it's your word against her and this is stuff that's happening all the time. It's dangerous. >> Yeah, it's it is but but I mean the flip side to that is well what's the alternative? >> Correct. >> Do you want that every time somebody is a victim of a crime they have to come in with corroboration? They have to come in with video. have to come in with document, you know, with document, you know, two, you know, like if that were the case, then we'd never be able to prosecute cases because at the end of the day, where do people generally try to commit crimes? They try to commit crimes in areas and places where there are no witnesses. Exactly. So like you know and this is a major issue where you know you're trying like cases that involve like one witness and you have this issue all the time where you know you you might have a witness and you know from the prosecutor's perspective they want to say well you know and the law is that you can be convicted based on the testimony of one witness. Um there's been a lot of talk in the public about you know one you know identification witnesses being you know unreliable and there's been a ton of social science on that point particularly if it's a crossracial identification or if it's you know if you know the lighting conditions and and there are a number of factors that the courts look at and that juries are instructed to look at in order to consider whether or not an identification is reliable. But at the end of the day, identification testimony or the testimony of one witness is sufficient. And people have a problem with that nonetheless. Even though it's legally sufficient, it's okay under the law. A lot of people are like, "That's ridiculous. I mean, I can't just try like what if he's mistaken, >> right? >> You're like, "What if they're just not, >> you know, what if and and they can genuinely believe that they're identifying the the the correct person, >> right? >> And yet, so getting back to the point of like, you know, like what do you do?" I mean, yeah, I mean, you have to have a system that allows for >> for protection >> for protection of potential victims, but on the other hand, it does expose a lot of innocent people to frivolous the frivolous claims. >> So, this person who is innocent, I mean, he never went through the system. Now, he gets arrested. What is the procedure? They take him, they take him down to the station first. Yeah. >> And there's a walk us through what a person if he gets arrested. Sure. the holding cell, then waiting for a judge, and god forbid it's on a weekend. Yeah. And then he ends up What? Walk us through this. >> So, it really depends on the jurisdiction. It depends if it's state or federal. It depends if it's um even even within the state system. If it's, you know, local village or if it's like, you know, in Rockland County or in Nassau County. It really depends. It's very jurisdiction specific, but I can sort of walk you through the general steps. in New York City. Um, in New York City, there are night court arraignments. The arraignment is the the initial appearance before a judge. Um, where the judge makes a determination of bail. So, there's courts that are open from 9:00 in the morning to 1:00 at night. So, almost the whole day. And the process is a police officer makes an arrest, whether it's out on the street or it's a pre-arranged surrender. Person comes into the precinct. They'll be fingerprinted. They'll be photographed. um the officer or the detective, whoever's processing the case, will then do their paperwork, which can sometimes take a while. >> Yeah. >> Um there's some gamesmanship on that in terms of the, you know, how to play the overtime game, >> right? >> Um so you can imagine >> anytime this the the every police station has a holding cell, >> correct? Every police station has a holding cell. There's a holding cell usually on the first floor of the precinct and there's usually a holding cell up on the second floor depending if it's a detective arrest versus a patrol arrest. But what either way, yeah, there are cells within the precinct. Um, again, this is in New York City and pretty much in all precincts. >> Um, and then they'll the cops will do their paperwork. They'll send it off to the prosecutor's office, the DA's office. The DA's office will then have to draft up a criminal court complaint that gets filed with the court. That process also takes a while. >> How many hours are we talking about now? We're talking generally speaking in New York City, it's about 24 to sometimes 36 hours that you can languish in central booking. It depends. Central Booking is the courthouse. >> Courthouse. >> It's the police side of the courthouse and then they they bring him into uh the arraignment in front of a judge. >> That's booking. That's Yeah. That's in I mean in the in the uh in the courthouse. Yeah. So central booking is sort of like a a hub within the courthouse. >> Mhm. Wow. So that's hours and hours of person just being accused. I mean, we don't know if he's innocent yet or not. Goes through the system. Yep. >> And this is >> And then what's even worse is that imagine it's, you know, it's a serious crime or a judge makes a determination that they should be held without bail or that bail should be set that they cannot afford. They haven't been convicted of any crime. They may have a job. They may have a family that relies on them. They may have a life on the outside and then they go to, you know, to a jail awaiting >> everything is standing. Your entire life shuts down. your entire life shuts down like you know I mean >> and how does the bail work is it cash check real estate how does that work >> so good question um in New York state there are basically what's called there's three forms of bail now there's a um there's cash bail where you just pay to get you know get out of jail >> but someone can show up with 50 grand in cash >> correct yeah I mean it happens >> and then you don't have to is someone have answer where this is coming from. >> Um, occasionally depending on the nature of the charge, if it's like, for example, um, a drug a drug charge or a a charge that involves >> that makes it suspicious. >> That makes it suspicious. So then they may ask what's called a bail shy hearing, which is effectively the prosecutor and a judge reviews sort of what the source of the money is to try to make sure that it's not illbegotten gains that are being used for bail. But assuming it's legitimate money, what they'll do is um so that's that's cash bail. Then there's what's called a partially secured bond. A partially secured bond is effectively where, you know, let's say it's a $100,000 partially secured bond that 10% which means that you have to put up $10,000 cash and then you have to be able to sign or multiple people have to sign saying that if this guy doesn't show back up to court, I'm going to be on the hook for the remaining $90,000. >> So, that's another form that's partially secured bond. It's secured by your signature. Mhm. >> And then the third form of of uh is is a is an actual bond where essentially you have uh either usually a bail bondsman that puts up you know uh you you pay the bondsman a fee plus a percentage and 100,000 and he lays out and he writes a bond that says that if this guy doesn't come back to court I will pay the bond and that bond is secured by property meaning that like if there's a car or real estate that they can put up as collateral that the bondsman will there therefore write the bond. on based on based on the collateral that you put up. In in federal court, it's a little different. In federal court, >> depending on the charges, drug charges, gun charges, um there could be a presumption that they have to be detained, meaning that they have to be held without bail. Um in the in the state system in New York at least, you're not allowed to consider the defendants's potential dangerousness to the community, although it gets it gets considered anyways just under the guise of something else. you know, a lot of um but in the federal system, the judge is allowed to consider the potential dangers to the community um andor their potential flight risk. But ironically, in the federal system, in many cases, it's it's a lot easier to get bail. um in the state system on a lot of cases, you know, so like I said, you know, that's why, you know, you asked me before like if it's if one system is is more strict than the other like on a white collar case in federal court, it's very rare to for there to be bail. Very rare. >> Now, what do most people do? They do the bail bondsman or they do uh >> It really depends on the case. It depends on the individual client's situation. Um a lot of times it's easy to do the unsecured bond. M >> um but you have to have people that are willing to sign that actually have legitimate income. >> You're involved with the bond too. So let's say if you have a client, would they tell you can you take care of the bail bonds? >> No, I I I'm not involved with that. No, I'm not involved in that. Although I can sort of >> you can recommend them somebody to go. Yeah, but I I'm generally Yeah, that's not that's not really me. >> Now, um so after that is done, if the bail now here's this is this is crazy what happens after let's say you have the bail and you're out on the street. Now there's a court date waiting for you, right? A tri a trial. >> No, no, no. There's no Yeah. First the first court I mean it can be the average life cycle of a felony case both in state and federal court is at least a year to two years before the case goes to trial. I mean I just recently tried a case that was over three years old. >> Three years. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So going in you know already that this is going to be first of all cost a lot of money y and a lot of sleepless nights. Yep. >> You know not to know what is really going on. The uncertainty is probably >> the worst >> the worst part about the whole system. >> We tell people before, listen, this is going to happen. This is this is how long it's going to take and this is what you're looking at. Then you know a little bit. It's hard but you can prepare. Yeah, >> the uncertainty is a is a position to >> and I always and it and it sucks, but I mean a lot of times that that's you see clients just grappling with this that like they yesterday they had a life where they had they thought at least they had some degree of certainty or you know predictability about what was going to happen with them. I mean really it's it's sort of a lesson for us all that there really is no such thing as predicty but but but I mean you you see it in such in such a stark way with clients who are facing criminal charges just the way their life is in complete disarray. >> Everything that they thought they knew about their life yesterday has now changed and it has changed indefinitely. And you never know when it's going to change back. You don't know when you're going to get that that level of certainty and and I and I see that level of uncertainty and I always and unfortunately but you know I I tell clients all the time like this is this is what it feels I mean like this is the level of uncertainty is just >> it's unbelievable. >> It's unbelievable. It really is >> unbelievable stuff. Now what is the process of uh do you as a an attorney do you push the idea of uh making please rather than go to trial? I mean that's the the the word on the street is nobody ever won the government. Uh this is federal but even in other places is plea something >> not true. I've I've I've won a lot thankfully. Um >> but I'll say this. Um >> the decision of whether or not to plead guilty is ultimately at its core a decision of the beast that I know versus the beast that I don't. We talked about uncertainty, okay? >> And >> it's really about an individual defendant or a client's appetite for rolling the dice for the uncertainty, >> right? >> And you know, behind one door, you have potential full acquis, right? >> Behind another door is usually greater consequences than what you would receive by the plea. And so if you make that costbenefit analysis, sometimes it just doesn't make sense for a client to roll the dice and risk what's behind door number two if he knows he has that level of certainty. Look, I I you know, and in federal court, there is no level of certainty. One of the major major differences between federal court and state court when it comes to sentencing is that in federal court, you plead guilty 99.99% of the time. you have no clue what the sentence is going to be. >> In state court, you generally have a much better idea of what the sentence is going to be. And so, you know, that level of uncertainty is so palpable that a lot of times people just naturally, particularly people that have a lot to lose, they naturally gravitate versus to the beast that I, you know, it sort of becomes a lesser of two evils. And what makes it even worse is that when your lawyer's telling you, "Well, look, I mean, the evidence against you is overwhelming. The likelihood of you being convicted is significant, right?" Then may as well jump on the plea. That being said, I've had many cases and many clients where, look, I've had overwhelming evidence against my client, overwhelming evidence, and the client, for whatever reason, personal or, you know, whatever, just just couldn't take a plea. And we've gone to trial, and I've been successful. I've gotten acquittles on cases where clients they had overwhelming evidence against them. I'm talking about DNA, multiple eyewitnesses, you know, video surveillance. I mean, it it happens. Um because again, trials are are are are by humans for humans and things happen throughout the trial and if you know what you're doing, right, >> you can make those things happen. But the point is is that um the reason why there are so many pleas within the system is because it's just you if you go to trial and you lose, >> you usually get a much higher sentence than what you would receive by a plea. And so it's really the beast that you know versus the beast that you don't. >> It's a complicated decision. >> It's a very complex decision. It's a very emotional decision. It's a decision that if a client has family and and and it it's it's tough, >> but that's the decision that and so, you know, because of that uncertainty that we discussed before, people want that level of certainty. >> Wow. >> Now, let me ask you, um, if a [snorts] case goes to trial or whatever the case is and your client is found guilty, did you prepare this person how what to expect in jail? He's going to come the first day. The loneliness, the gangs, whatever we know on the street. What What are they supposed to expect? >> So, there are consultants that particularly for white collar professional consultants. >> Yeah. Professional consultants that you can bring into a case. >> What about not white collar? Because sometimes the person is >> so accidentally getting involved. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, interestingly enough, it's very rare that you have a client who has no prior exposure to the criminal justice system who commits a serious viol generally a violent felony that's going to result in a lengthy period of of a a a a strict incarceration, medium to maximum security incarceration, >> who is not incarcerated pre-trial. Okay? Right? So most of the time by the time they're going upstate or they're going to a prison, they've already spent a significant amount of time in the local lockup, >> right? >> And that that acclamation to the environment is just I mean that is hell on earth for a lot of people. people, you know, who have never had any exposure to to just that level of of violence and that level of, >> you know, I mean, a lot of these correctional facilities just the the they just there's just, you know, the the apathy that's from, you know, unfortunately from some of the staff. Um, just, you know, like they said, the level of violence and >> this is >> borderline corruption that goes on. It's a tough it's it's a really really really tough >> shack of a lifetime. >> It's the shot. It is. It is. It is. It is. You talk about Riker's Island. >> Yeah, I'm talking about Rikers or other local lockups. >> What I what I read and what I heard is that uh they're taking dead people out of there on a on a daily basis. They're like >> you hear the most craziest things coming out of that place. That is a jungle. >> Yes. >> And nobody's doing anything about it. I mean because you see I look at it as and tell me if I'm you know I don't know there there is a jail and the jail is the punishment or whatever the case is. Then there is another punishment. Place looks dirty. There's no food. And the people around you, it's a double whammy. You know, >> what's worse is, as I indicated before, the people in Riker's Island have not been convicted of anything. Correct. They're innocent until proven guilty. You know, one of the funniest things any potential juror ever told me was I was I was trying a case in Queens years ago and there was a from guy who was on the panel and um you know we were talking about like the principle I usually talk to potential jurors about like you know the principles that uh you know the presumption of innocence is one of those principles and this goes back to 1776 to the founding of this country goes back even before that >> and the guy had a very refreshing take on it. He looked at me and he goes, "I don't understand. This guy's presumed innocent." He goes, "There's two court officers sitting behind your client with their feet up against his chair to prevent him from running away." >> What kind of presumption of innocence is that? >> Yeah. >> Honestly, I I had nothing to say to him. >> Right. [laughter] >> Now, obviously, I understand why that has to be the case >> for security and all that. And I and I have no >> there's no innocence there. >> Yeah. I mean >> now let me ask you this humiliation that is going on from when a person is becom is they they pick up somebody and they go through the system um for the crime is this designed this way psychologically to break the person because there could be a way how to because like I said before prison is a punishment itself it's enough >> he's not he's going to be away from his family he's locked off he's not needed there's plenty to deal with besides uh the sanitary And besides uh what is is the humiliation part of it? >> You're talking about the humiliation of like the public humiliation of having been >> everything. It's it's a it's humiliating. I >> I mean it's not supposed to be, but as a as a practical matter, is it? Yeah, sure. >> I mean, it sucks the design. >> The question is, is it the feature or is it the bug? You know what I'm saying? I don't know. Um >> you know, like what came first, the chicken, >> right? So, so um jails is just a holding. Jails is not prison. Prison is a long-term thing. >> Correct. >> Right. So, Riker is just for a year. No, like more than a year. >> No. The Riker's Island is the local jail in New York City that holds pre-trial detainees. That is people who are waiting for their day in court to be tried >> or no bail or they >> either they have no bail or there's a bail in bail. >> Yeah. Either they have no bail or they can't afford the bail. Right. Um or it is for people who have been sentenced on misdemeanor charges who are serving up to a year in jail. Sometimes you can have people serving consecutive year sentences in Riker. So you can in theory have two have somebody sitting on Riker's Island as a sentence prisoner for two years. Um but not so common but yeah. So that's what Riker Island. >> But in the US you would say that Rikers is the worst place. It's definitely up there as one of the worst facilities in >> New York. A lot of times, do you see that people will take a plea bargain even if they know, I mean, they're innocent, but they can't take this whole uh or deal. >> Absolutely. People will absolutely fold because they can't stand the pressure of the situation. They can't stand taking the risk >> that it would that it would take. They don't have the money. They don't have the wherewithal to continue to fight. months or how many years are they willing to pay for this? >> So, I mean that's usually a case by case basis, but this is what I told you before when you know that you have people that are the more common scenario is you have people that are doing time that are innocent of some of the charges but not necessarily innocent of all the charges. That's the and that's and that's one of the reasons why people take police. One of the biggest fictions that you know a lot of pro unfortunately a lot of prosecutors are are laboring under this fiction that only guilty people take p. >> That is the biggest and and I mean that is that is just not true. And and over the courts used to believe this also but as time has gone by many more and more courts have have sort of come to the realization that even though when somebody pleads guilty they they're asked all these questions. Are you pleading guilty freely and voluntarily? You're pleading guilty of your own free will. Are you pleading guilty? Because in fact, you are guilty. Is it true that honor about this and this day you did it, you know, you did X, Y, and Z. And isn't it true? Even though you say all that, okay, courts have recognized that people who are actually innocent sometimes plead guilty. >> Wow. And so, you know, and I think I think it this this idea is catching on, but yes, I I' I've seen clients absolutely just fold and they take please just because it, you know, >> the pressure the pressure >> the pressure and the risk of going to trial and losing is so great >> and they have so little confidence in the system to actually weed out the truths from the falsity that people do take please. Absolutely. It happens all the time. Now, um I went to visit a couple of people in prison years ago. So, supposedly the warden and the officers in the in the in the prison, the they're supposed to protect the people in the prison. You know, it's their officials from the government. Now what happens if a if a prisoner wants to complain on the ward this guy is supposed to be top guy and then the officers what where is he supposed to go what is he supposed to do and does he have even any right over this >> good luck um I there are there are lawsuits um you can bring you know civil rights lawsuits that's an entire area of practice >> wow >> um prisoner rights litigation >> right Um, but the reality is is that administratively within the system, what can you do? Not a lot, unfortunately. >> And not only that, are they going to pay a price for that? So, let's say if you put in complaint, is there a place in prison? Yes. Where you can put a complaint on this and this officer, right? Yes. >> But you'll pay a price for this >> potentially. And in fact, in in New York State prison, one of the factors that they look at when you go to the parole board is whether or not you've had any frivolous lawsuits that you've filed. >> So, you know, now that's So, so the to answer your question, I mean, is there technically uh um an inspector general? Is there technically a place to go for corruption or for or for something that goes on within the facility? Absolutely, there is technically. Um does it always necessarily work? No. And I mean, and also think about it from from the investigator's perspective. I mean, like, >> what else are you going to have in prison? I mean, they're saying, "Oh, it's just sour grapes. It's just a guy who >> doesn't like his situation, who's doing x amount of time, who's just trying to make up a complaint because he's trying to set up a lawsuit or something like that, you know?" But there are there are there is litigation there. There are litigation options. There are lawyers that handle um exclusively almost right >> prisoner litigation >> and occasionally it's successful but it's always >> it's always an uphill battle for sure. >> Wow. It's it's it's it's unbelievable stuff. >> And uh between your clients and you were doing this for a lot of years. Did you see uh prisoners become creative in prison like you know crazy stories that >> meaning like for what creative >> survival? Yeah. I mean, I I actually, it's funny you say that. I I' I've had clients that have shown an unbelievable amount of like artistic creativity. I had a client not too long ago. >> He comes out of the he he comes out of the cells. He was doing time on Rikers waiting on a case. They originally he was facing like 25 years. I end up getting him a really good deal, like two to four. Um but he comes out one day for one of the court appearances and his wife's in the audience and he's got this like paper um origami that he made like a a flower bouquet made out of like paper like the most unbelievably intricate and artistic thing I've ever seen in my entire like unbelievable. And he asked yo can you like you know can you give this to my wife and they they you know they let him pass it. It was unbel. It was like huge. It was this big thing that just had like all these flowers sticking out of it. And so yeah, I mean I' I mean I've seen that >> because because what happens is that the desperation and >> it's also the time >> the time brings out a certain you know criminals will use uh you know they'll make knives from from whatever from glass from metals from wood and all these but but even art and all the other stuff they become like people it brings out in them the you know a different side. Yes, 100%. >> And also they want to express themselves because they're incarcerated and you know they they want to be you know they it's crazy what this does. >> 100%. I mean like this was this was really unique. This I I wish I had a picture of it actually. >> Wow. Now what happens if a person, you know, is uh sentenced and he uh he's supposed to go to prison and uh he gets uh matched up in a room or whatever was in a cell with a psychopath with some crazy dude. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And this guy's, you know, he comes in for a few months, whatever, whatever it was. >> Are there psychopaths in there or they belong in, you know, they they there's mental institutions for these people? >> Well, unfortunately, a lot of these institutions are just so overburdened that they just don't have the capacity. And so therefore, they >> they leave them in. >> There are Yes, there are >> between this between the same people. So, generally speaking, corrections, whether it's state corrections, city corrections, they they usually don't want to put the lions with the lambs, right? >> Um just because it's a liability, not because they want to be nice, just because it's a liability to them to them, right? I mean, if they're going to put a guy with, you know, who's just who's got who's if if they put a 55year-old white Jewish guy in a cell with, you know, a hardcore gang member who's who's waiting trial on a murder case, chances are something's going to happen. And so therefore, they're it's just this is bad for them. >> So someone is actually evaluating this guy belongs in this belong. >> Not only that, but they evaluate their gang affiliation. So they know who's affiliated with who and they know and they and they know this based on the tattoos that they have. They know this based on the information they get from the police department. It's a whole world figuring out, you know, doing the the the gangim and making sure that people are in the appropriate housing is a and who has beef with who is a full-time job. >> It is a full-time job. Literally, it's a full-time job. They have they have gang investigators within the jails. And so, yes, they they they usually try keeping people um that are not going to have but but that being said, are there acts of violence that occur every day? Of course, you know, for all different types of real or perceived reasons that come up while either they're in jail or stuff that may have happened out on the streets, they'll stuff that's, you know, hanging around for many years. Who knows? Now, I know in prisons and in the camps and places like that, um, when you're settled already, they try at least to, you know, get get the they have like a they pray together. They give him what do they call a room? They're not calling it a shul, right? >> But it's like a >> Yeah. Whatever. They come together and they d >> But in a jail or let's say Rakasan, a place like that. How does Shabasont look in that place? >> There's no such shot. There's no shopping. >> It's just a regular Wednesday. >> It's just a regular Wednesday. Yeah. Yeah. >> That is painful for a person who was used to so many years. Yeah. You know, sitting with his family, it's uh it's next level pain. >> It's horrible. It really is. >> But I mean, like I said, for for white collar cases, it's rarer. I mean in the in the state system and particularly and also in the federal system for there to be pre-trial detention but once they go to a facility whether it's you know on the federal system the Odisville usually >> um you know there's >> there's these places. >> Yeah. >> Now what do you see with people who are uh incarcerated? Do they become more spiritual? They like what did they with your clients? Did you see that a person change? Let's say you started off one way couple of years later he's sitting with the Mrs. for him and he's >> yeah giving meaning to it. Do you see rehabilitation? >> So so when I'm usually so most of my practice is trial level work. So I I do a lot of work you know in state and federal court at the trial court level I do you know appellet work also. So I do that I mean that's really why I have some you know like some background about what goes on in a lot of these facilities. So I because I I I I talk to clients once they're already incarcerated when you're doing an appeal. >> But once you're sort of done with the case, you know, it's rare that I follow up with them to see although I have >> a relationship. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, I I have had clients reach out to me after and thank me. >> Um I was walking around the courthouse one day. Um and I was I was about to go into the bathroom over there and there was some guy comes and goes, "Oh, Mr. Absolutely. Thank you so much. I didn't I didn't recognize the guy. It was a client from years ago that he was he was he was working he he was working in the courthouse for like um I think he was on parole at the time. So he was he like part of his parole was he was like cleaning he was he he was cleaning the bathroom and he was I I literally didn't recognize the guy. It was so long ago. He remembered me and he came over. He hugged me but like you know so that's a guy you know it's and it's nice to see those stories of people that have that have helped them but you know for the most part like once you know >> Yeah. It's like a client you move on and that's it. That's not to say while I'm while I'm with them, I'm not invested. Of course I am. I'm I'm heavily invested. You know, you want to do right by your client, but I mean, I don't always necessarily get to see the end of the story, >> right? Also, there is a black market. They have their own economy over there. Did you know anything about this? Like, you know, they're selling their own stuff. It's like it's like their own little world, you know. >> It is. Well, any >> any area, I mean, you saw this in communist Russia. You see this and anywhere where there are restrictions. But you have humans that have restrictions on them. The human spirit yearns to be free. And >> that's also part of the creativity. Yeah. Potter and they it's a whole business thing over there. Yeah. >> And that's illegal. I mean these are illegal. >> Well, I mean if you know you're selling stuff that you're not how do they pull it off? >> A lot of times there are correctional officers who are >> who are like behind the scenes. >> Yeah. >> Because today is a world of cameras and videos and tough. I think that there's cell phones now in the jails. There are. >> How is that possible? Because when I used to go visit years ago, my friend, and um that was there was you cannot get a cell phone in there. >> You'd be surprised. People are very creative. But no, I mean, >> no, I understand. But the but the you can see them on social media >> today. >> Yeah. >> How is how are they pulling this off? I don't get it. >> Like I said, a lot of times there's >> But then but then if if it's on social media, then the tops will find out. >> Someone's going to find out. I mean, I'm not saying people are smart about how they do it, but um I mean, there the feds just locked up not too long ago a bunch of officers at Riker's Island for for smuggling stuff in and being on the take and >> yeah, let me ask you about this is a huge topic and uh you see it always they talk about it all over about the shoe about solitary confinement. So, this is >> cruel and unusual punishment. >> Now, that is next level also. I mean, but again, I understand there must be punishment in punishment, you know, like if they're punished already, they're in prison. How are you going to punish them? So, if to to keep them in line, but what what's your opinion on this uh solitary confinement? Person goes in there for a month, two months with a pencil and a paper. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, look, a lot of times people can't be in general pop, like either >> either for their own safety, like think of like a cop who's been who's been incarcerated, like he he can't be out. >> What does that do to your psyche? >> I mean, it's it's it's horrible. It's horrible. It's horrible. I mean, seeing nothing but a wolf for 23 hours a day. I mean, it's it's Yeah. It's terrible. >> Sometimes I wonder what humans can survive. Yeah, >> because you know a person who was sitting seven eight years he went into the shoe a few times few months he has like a whole I was like in in in different times but he has like months that he spent in the shoe this guy is still sane you know it's like but there's a movement for to to there's a whole big uh >> there's been a movement in New in the New York City Department of Corrections to end solitary confinement >> and what other options do they have? I mean, honestly, they just renamed it. >> They they instead of solitary confinement, it's um segregated housing or some other, you know, >> euphemism. But I mean, it's >> But is it possible someone to go through the prison system for a couple of years, let's say, and not end up in the shoe or every single one of them for some odd reason? There is a fight, there's people there, you were looking there, you were standing there, you end up there. >> It's a horrible condition. Put it that way. terrible condition. That is not a good place to be. >> No. >> No. Um, as far as um you're dealing with with families and children, what is uh the most heartbreaking story that you ever uh that really shook you to the core that uh took you over? I wouldn't say that there's any one individual story, >> but watching the effect of a criminal case on someone's life, on someone's family, >> you know, you have clients that their marriages collapse, you know, children are alienated from them. I think it's it's it's sort of a general experience that occurs >> and it's it's just a you know like I I had a client not too long ago that you know his four-year-old kid was in court and you know judge put him in and the kid doesn't understand >> right >> like what's really happening >> right >> and you know watching the kid crying outside you know he has he has no clue he has no idea and of course you know the judge will say or the prosecutor say well he wasn't thinking about his kid when he did x y and z you know he wasn't thinking about you know his family wasn't you know he should have thought about that before he did that you know >> but it's heartbreaking >> but it's still nonetheless I mean there is a human certainly a human cost you know um when you're a prosecutor you only focus on the victims right >> and then you know when you're defense attorney you see the other the other side and >> it's part of the business >> now did you ever defend somebody that you uh taught inside that you that he's guilty >> I mean If I didn't if I had never represented a guilty client before, then either I was very inexperienced uh or very naive, >> delusional. [laughter] Yeah. >> I mean, it happens all the time, right? >> Um I would have no clients if I only represented innocent people, right? >> Um but the reality is is that >> I'm a professional. I have a role. >> Um the prosecutor has a role. The judge has a role. and my job is to zealously advocate for my client. >> Correct. >> Regardless of the circumstances, that is my job. That is my role. Um that is what makes our system function, >> right? >> Having people and you know what, if you or someone you loved was in that situation, >> you would also want >> you would also want somebody and and and not only that, but you know, people all you know what do you you know, how do you how do you sleep at night when you know you got this guilty person? You know, they fundamentally misunderstand what the role of a criminal defense attorney is. The role of a criminal defense attorney fundamentally is to keep the government in check to make sure that there are no excesses to make sure that the client does not get abused. Because even if he or she is a 100% guilty, there is still a process. There is still a system. There are still rules and laws that must be followed. Just like he's being prosecuted for violating laws, there are also laws that keep the government in check. >> Correct. And the reason that there are those laws that keep the government in check is because we in the United States have had and especially Orthodox Jews and Jews in particular, we've had experience with what happens >> when there's a public outcry and when we want to dispense with the rules and just go ahead and get those guys, whether those guys are the criminals, whether those guys are Jews or other minorities. And so it's it's critical that we zealously advocate and that we stand up for those rules because you know what if you look at the United States Constitution, if you look at the Bill of Rights which were passed in 1792 going back to the very four years after the founding of this of the of the Constitution. >> There's 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights. The last two don't really relate to individual rights. the sort of rights about how the state and the federal government relate to each other and sort of a general statement of rights, the ninth amendment for for individuals. But amendments 1 through eight, half of those amendments relate to the rights of criminal defendants. Okay? You have the fourth amendment, free to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. Okay? You have the fifth amendment, right to due process, right to a trial, to um um compulsory process in any criminal case, right to remain silent, all rights that apply to criminal defendants. Sixth amendment, right to counsel, right to confront the witnesses against you, right to a a public trial within the Sixth Amendment. Eth amendment, no excessive bail or no cruel and unusual punishment. So you have half of the of the top eight >> that relate to the rights of criminal defendants. the right to habius corpuses in the actual constitution itself that was adopted in 1787. And so these are rules that are exist for a reason. And the reason they exist is because when you have a society that sort of others people, when you have a society that sort of dispenses with the rules in their zeal to try to get people, you have tyranny, >> right? >> And so, you know, my role as a criminal defense attorney is to make sure that those rules are are are zealously followed, >> right? You're keeping you're keeping them in check. >> You're keeping them in check. And whether that means, you know, making sure that, you know, the the sentence is not excessive, whether that means that you're advocating for a lower sentence to a judge, whether that means that you're going to trial and trying to get the guy acquitted. At the end of the day, the government has the burden of proving their case to a jury of your peers beyond a reasonable doubt. And unless and until they can do that, they cannot incarcerate somebody. >> Wow. >> And and and they cannot take away their liberty. >> And so that's my job. That's my role. And it's not about whether the guy is innocent or guilty. I'm sure that's important on a moral level. But at the end of the day, my role is to keep the government in check. >> 100% important. >> And if it's you that's sitting in that chair, you want somebody on your side that's not going to fold over. >> Correct. >> You want somebody on your side that's going to be in your corner. >> Correct. What is the most uh outrageous injustice that you ever experienced? Again, also it's hard to sort of pick one individual case right now off the top of my head, but I would say, you know, seeing people fold >> just because they don't have the wherewithal or the the guts or the or just the desire to go through and see a case through to the end, you know. I mean, I've I've I've had trials where, you know, just terribly unfair, you know, but for the most part, it's, you know, it's within the margin of error, I would say. >> Have you ever had to walk away from a case? >> Um, occasionally there can be disagreements, client. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, but, >> you know, usually I'm a very easygoing guy. Yeah, I'm, you know, I I I will, you know, bend over backwards to try, you know, to try to accommodate. >> You were mentioning before, um, that you have the right to remain silent. Um, now when someone is approached by a police officer, cop or something, everyone says he has cooperate, but on the other hand, should you be quiet, not talk? What is your right? You your right your right is to remain silent and you should take that right and you should exercise that right >> because the number of people that I have seen who have talked their way out of criminal charges is absolutely zero. Wow. >> Okay. No one has ever talked themselves out. >> Um it is I mean you know >> and and here's the worst part. Sometimes when you are approached by a police officer, when you're questioned by an officer or an investigator or an agent or whatever the case may be, >> you don't know whether or not even admitting something as slight as where you live >> can be an important fact. You don't know whether even admitting the fact that you own a particular car can be an important fact in the case. You know, like take a hit and run for example. You know, they may have video surveillance of a a a black Mercedes leaving the scene of a hit and run. Cop walks up to your house, knocks on your door. Hey, do you have a black Merced? Is that your black Mercedes parked outside? Yeah, that's mine. Now, you just admitted that you own that car and you have no idea how that admission is important. So, you know, in the context of a greater investigation. So, um I I mean I I always say you have a right to remain silent and you should exercise it. I'm not giving anybody legal advice, but >> Yeah. But the idea is that they know they have a way also how to make you talk. >> Absolutely. And there are >> They're professional at it. >> Yes. There are documented documented cases of false confessions 100%. >> There are people that confess to crimes that are absolutely that they've never committed. It happens. There are experts that testify about these types of things. And then most people say, "Oh, well, I would never confess." A lot of times, you know, there are mental health issues. A lot of times the person will have been in a precinct for 24, 36. There was a case, I forget out of which state where a guy confessed to killing his mother and she was and turned out she was alive. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. It was it was all over the news and he ended up setting for like I don't know $850,000, which frankly I thought was a low number. But this guy was brought in by the I think it was like in I don't know maybe like Minnesota or something. >> How does someone do that? They these cops literally, you know, they say, you know, literally they told him you because she was, you know, she was an elderly mother and he lived with her or something and like, oh, she she's gone like she's missing. You know, there's we found blood at the house and like they they pounded this guy for like 12 hours straight. They come in, they come out, they play good cop, bad cop, and this guy ended up confessing to killing his mother and then they found his mother like in the grocery store like a day later. She was just like she had like dementia or something. She's been wandering around. Yeah. So, it happens. It happens. It really h and this guy was like, you know, whatever. He was still living with his mother. I don't know what the story was over there, right? But, but they got him to admit >> But they got him to admit that he killed his mother and he was completely innocent. She was alive. Crazy story. >> Now, I want to talk about an issue which is uh you know, it's very important about DWIs and all these uh especially teenagers. >> Yeah. You know, I' I've seen little clips of people losing their lives. You know, their future, you look about 20 year olds standing in front of the judge and they have a whole future ahead of them. Um, what is your message for these young people? >> My message is is that in life there are mistakes that you can make that you just can't come back from. You know, like everybody, oh, don't cry over spilled milk. Oh, mistakes happen. Mistakes happen. It's not just say you're sorry. You can say you're sorry, but sorry doesn't fix the lamp. >> There are mistakes that you can make in life that you can't come back from. And those, you know, DWI and stuff like that that that can happen >> because these are innocent uh kids who can kill their friends or can kill themselves. >> It's horrible. >> How many I mean, I can't even watch these. And the worst part about it is is that usually when they get into the car and drive, they're by definition already impaired. >> So their judgment is already impaired >> by being drunk. And they're getting into like if you ask them in a sober moment, do you think it it was the right thing to they would of course say no? Of course not. >> You know, but and and that it's it's it's horrible. It's heartbreaking. >> Yeah. It starts by a party. It starts by just as here there. And you don't know how many people I know they say I'm okay. I can do it. >> I'm good. I'm good. But but like you said, this is a mistake that you can never fix. >> Yeah. And and you know, everybody always says, you know, but by the grace of God go I, you know, and and so I I'll I'll be okay. And you know, the reality is is that the majority of times that people do it, they get away with it. >> They get away with it. >> They get away because I mean, thank God, nothing happens. >> What did what is your experience? you saw a family who is going through with a other family member who's who's uh you know either incarcerated or going through a trial. Did you find that the the burden the burden that the family takes is is beyond >> it's beyond it's beyond it's beyond they they they live and die with with every every ruling. They live and die with everything. And the worst part about it is is that sometimes they don't even understand as they're sitting in the audience. They don't even fully understand the the significance of things until after it's happened and we go out in the hallway after something's happened and I sit there and try to explain to them like what actually occurred cuz that I mean that's that's the worst part most of the time it's just like the bewilderment just like wait so what just happened you know >> right >> but no I mean it it it wears on it wears on family friends >> so what kind of crimes do you see do you see DWI do you see physi you know like what kind of criminal crimes uh is is is common in your office. >> Um, I I do a variety of uh state and federal white collar and and bluecollar criminal charges. So, I mean, I I handle everything from [snorts] racketeering and and uh white collar fraud cases all the way on down to drunk driving cases. I mean, I handle in state and federal court, I handle the gamut. I mean, it runs >> it runs the gamut. It really does. >> Now, what is the reason behind all these crimes? Is this like desperate for money? Is it for uh stupidity? Is it what what is the drive behind this? And how can a person say, you know what, I don't want to go through this system. I want to be a, you know, a a good citizen. >> Yeah. I mean, look, so I mean, it really depends on the type of case. Sometimes you have cases that are, you know, crimes of passion. Sometimes you have crimes that are crimes of desperation. Sometimes you have crimes of, you know, premeditation. Sometimes you have crimes that are, you know, out of combination of all of those, whether it's desperate and then you have crimes are set out of good old greed. >> Um, you know, or or probably particularly in in in the white collar sphere. Yeah. >> Um, what you see a lot is, you know, you sort of you get involved with something >> maybe it's gray. You're not quite sure. You kind of have an inkling that it's not kosher, but you kind of go along with it because that's how things get done. and why are they picking on me, right? >> You know, and then it sort of starts snowballing and then the money gets too good to walk away from it and then you're just >> not thinking about the consequences. >> Yeah. I mean, it's sort of that and then, you know, there could be other social pressures that play into it. So, >> you know, there are a number of different factors, reasons why. >> Yeah. And and by the way, these are not necessarily bad people. >> Yeah. You know, these are criminal minds. >> No, I mean like they're not, you know, you have I mean, I have a lot of clients that are just, you know, regular ordinary people that made bad decisions. You know, they say in sports you're never as you're never as bad as your worst loss. You're never as good as your best win. You know, same idea. You know, you're never as never, but like you most of the time you're you're never as bad as your your the worst thing you've ever done. You're never as good as the best thing you've ever done. You know, you're somewhere in between. >> Wow. And it's uh it's tough. I I assume it's tough because you know sometimes it's greed and sometimes pressure money and whatever reason people working hard and they're not making it you know >> there's a million reasons why it would drive a person to do it. So in your uh opinion uh they call it correction facilities. [laughter] >> Is it a punishment or or is it supposed to be a rehabilitation? >> It's one of the great misnomers within the system calling it correctional facilities. There's nothing about corre there's very little correction going on. That's right. >> It's a punishment. It's about segregating you from society and making sure that you don't commit any additional crimes during that period. I think then I mean sure are there people I mean does that correct you in a way maybe because it teaches you the consequences and it says you don't want to do it ever again. >> Right. >> But like you know is there like rehabilitation like so like they have in Sweden where they're uh you know they're >> No, it's not the cush. >> No, it's not. It's not. It's it's I mean even these camps you know that you talk about like Otisville whatever it's also not a not a party. >> No I mean who who wants to be there >> right? Right. You seem like a good attorney like attorney who was on top of your game. What is a bad attorney [laughter] like a corrupt attorney? You know there's some people who there's an attorney that is going to be like take the plea or is treating you like a piece of you know like >> Yeah. Yeah. So what is a bad attorney? Um, maybe I think the best way to answer that question is to say what a good attorney does. Okay. All right. I'm not going to cast dispersions on anyone else, but >> I think the number one [snorts] thing that you need to be a good attorney is diligence. Okay? You have to follow every lead. Leave no stone unturned. If that means working 12, 14, 16, 18 hour days, which I do, >> then that's what you need to do because you have an obligation and a duty to your client and somebody is relying on you. >> Somebody has paid you or whatever the case may be. >> His life is on the line >> and his life is on the line and appreciating the consequences to know this. >> Yes. And you need to carry that with you. Um, so I think the number one thing that you need to do that you need to have is is that a a level of diligence and vigilance being constantly, you know, on your toes and making sure that you are you take nothing for granted and that you are reviewing everything and you are making sure that you leave no stone unturned. I think that is more than compassion, more than empathy for the client, more than anything in the world is just a responsibility of being vigilant and diligent in what you do. [snorts] >> And I think that if you have that level of of heightened vigilance and heightened diligence and you're not just sort of cutting corners and getting by with, oh, it's good enough. It's good enough that I show up like like I I am like my biggest fear in life is showing up to court being unprepared. of course >> it's like it's like my biggest fear and yet you know there are attorneys that maybe don't have that fear. All right >> so that I think that is the number one thing that you need you know if you have a good you know a nice bedside manner if you're that's all great and wonderful. All right. If you, you know, if you're good with juries, if you have a good persona, if you have, you know, if if you have the ability to, you know, to to over, you know, to win over judges and juries, and if you have a, you know, if you have, >> there is, there is something about storytelling, right? >> 100%. 100%. I mean, as a as a trial lawyer, sure, you do that all the time, you know, being able to relate to people on a on like a visceral level, being able to relate to what like what drives people, how people think, how people feel. Absolutely. That's >> you also have to be on top of refresher courses as far as the law changes goes this way that way that's part of that's part of being diligent is making sure that if there's a change you're on top of your game keeping a breast with changes in the law like attending your CLE and not only attending them and you know sitting on your phone but attending them and CL are continuing legal education those courses you mentioned um but you know making sure that you're actually getting something out of them so 100% >> but thinking out of it is that uh there is a lot of work. >> Yes, >> Joe, I want to thank you for pulling back the curtain on a world that a lot of people don't even know exists. You remind us that choices, choices is what's important. Got to be vigilant. You should always be able to protect and to be a voice for the people who need you. And you should have a lot of nas and you should have a lot of uh health and wealth and you and your family should always be a man. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.