The Courage to Argue: Avraham’s Prayer for a doomed City | Rabbi Joel Kenigsberg | November 4th 2025

Good morning everybody. Thank you for coming. A pleasure to be with you this morning. Filling in today for Rabbi Adler. I believe he'll be back next week. >> Um I'm not Rabbi Adler if anybody was uh confused. Okay, so we're going to talk this morning. First of all, I have to apologize. I know that it was advertised on the schedule that the topic for today was understanding the AA. I'm not going to be talking about that. So, uh, if anybody feels that it's a and wants to leave right now, they're welcome to. But we're going to talk about something else. I will say one thing about the but there's another piece of the para that I really want to cover together with you, which is I've called it here the courage to argue Abraham's prayer for a doomed city. And this this discussion between Abraham and Akaresh Baraku, no less it's very very audacious. This is the beginning of Jewish. you know, God tells Abraham what he's going to do and Abraham says, "God, you can't do that. You have to do something else." That's uh it's a fascinating piece. It's a fascinating discussion in the uh in in the Torah and we just think about it. Um you know, maybe again we're familiar with the story like so many stories in the Kumash. We know them. We've learned them. We've heard them. We're familiar with them. But if we stop and think about it for a second, we realize just how shocking this is, right? And uh you know one thing especially if we compare what happens over here about Abraham's interaction with regarding storm and Abraham's interaction with regarding his own son which is we're not going to talk about but I said I'll mention a few words when Hashem gives Abraham the command to go and to kill his son at the to go and kill his own son. This is an ordeal not just for Abra on a personal level. It's an ordeal for him. It's going against everything that he's brought to the world. He is the one who's gone and he's showing, you know, he's taught to the world the evils of child sacrifice. And now God says, "Go and sacrifice your son, right? What am I, how am I going to go and how am I going to look people in the face? All these people that I've come and I've converted to well before Judaism as we know it but all these people that I've brought as the says and I've convinced them and I've taught them values and I've taught them morals and I've taught them what God is and what God says in the world and you're telling me to do the exact opposite of that. It's going against it's uprooting everything that I've done for you God. Right? So it's the opposite of justice we would think. Not only that Abra has received promises Hashem has promised him that you're going to become a great nation through through the son that I'm now telling you to go and to kill. So he has all the reasons in the world if there's ever a place that we would have expected Abraham to come and argue with God. It's the God says to him go and kill your son, we'd expect Abraham to say that doesn't make sense. What what maybe I've seen there's a uh it's not the traditional commentaries as a more modern interpretation. There are those that say that the uh that the ordeal that Aram should have come and he should have argued against God about the aa I don't believe that's a correct reading of the text. That's certainly not the way that our uh that our sages and our commentators learned it. But uh but it's strange why not especially when you consider and you contrast that against the piece that we're going to study now about Storm. If there's ever a case that I would have expected Abraham not to argue with God, it's about Storm. These are the people that are the absolute uh symbol of wickedness of evil in the world. They go against everything that Abraham has taught against everything that he is trying to uh to establish. God comes to Abraham and he says, "I'm going to destroy Storm. These people are so evil and they're so wicked and they go against everything that I want the world to be and they are the opposite of what humanity should be. I'm going to destroy them." Right? So if God would come and tell me, and he hasn't spoken to me recently, but if he would come and tell me, I'd say, "Great." You know, go ahead. That's that's that's what we want. That's what we expect. And says, "No, you can't do that. Where's the justice? Where's the morality?" But when it comes to his own son, when it comes to exactly the purpose of what I'm here for, so go on. You've lost your Now you've lost your voice. Now you're silent. What's going on? So that's an interesting thing to think about. And I'll leave you to think about that. Maybe we'll come back to it at the end if we have time. But that is that is an interesting question. But let's deep let's let's dive a little bit deeper into this whole story and this whole episode of the destruction of storm of the of the discussion the arguments. What I want to do is go through the sukim. I've brought you've got two pages in front of you. One is double-sided one is not. We're not going to worry there's a lot of text on the pages. I know we're not going to read everything inside but we're going to go through the pukim. and let's go through the sukim with a little bit of a critical eye. Let's look for questions. Let's look for things that jump out at us as we read the text. Maybe things that don't make sense, maybe things I'd expect to be a little bit different or any questions that are raised. And we'll go through them and we'll go through uh go through the text. It's not a very long piece. And after that, we'll look at what some of the commentators have to say and try and answer the questions and try and tie some of the things together. we'll see there are some very very important lessons that we can learn from this uh from this whole episode as well. So, just to put it into context, okay, we've just had the Malim, the three, right? At first, they don't know that they're Malikim, but they discover they've come to visit Ara and Sarah in their tent, right? They are told, they're given the prophecy that they're going to have uh going to have a child and that Storm Now, we are told that Storm is going to be destroyed immediately after this, right? The whole episode takes place and storm is destroyed and Lot and his family hun away, etc. So, this is just after the angels have come to visit. So the the the text that we're reading now begins right over here is the people referring to the angels as well. They get up there looking over at Abraham goes to escort them out. And now Hashem is going to speak and he's going to speak directly to Abraham begins as follows. Abraham, can I conceal? Can I hide from Abraham that which I am about to do? Now, this is the introduction to this whole dialogue. And this is a very, very interesting introduction. We don't find this in other places. Normally, there's a prophecy. There's a Hashem has something to say. He says it too. We don't find the beginning of God says we don't find the beginning of says am I going to tell me am I going to tell Moshe what I'm doing am I going to tell says am I going to tell Abraham what I'm about to do this is already this is the opening this is this says okay is become is becoming a great nation, right? All the nations of the world we bless through him. I know he is going to fulfill he's going to command his children and his descendants after him to continue in the way of hem tob. Okay. So that's the introduction. That's the opening. And perhaps already here the Torah is setting us up for a contrast between exactly what Abraham is and what's this is the exact opposite. This idea of Mishbat that is Abraham Au that is what he brings to the world. Storm is the exact opposite of Mishbat. By the way in storm they had Mishbat. They had judgment. They had a very very sophisticated and advanced legal system. But the problem is if you have Mishbat without staka all the other way around then then then things things fall apart and that is but it's together that is Abra and that is what he brings to the world. Now Shem says listen this cry that is coming from storm and am is great their sin is very very heavy I'm going to go go down it's all speaking metaphorically of course I'm going to see if they're if they're worthy of if they can be redeemed essentially So now the people leave the malim are gone and now it's just Abraham face to face with God. Okay. So we've had the introduction. We've been told what's going to happen. Hashem has announced to us and has announced to Abraham in the Torah that he's going to destroy the cities of storms. And this is where things start to get very very interesting. Right? Again what do we expect Abraham to do in such a situation? We expect him to say, "Hashem, that's great. We're going to get we're going to get rid of evil. We're going to get we're going to get justice." But that's all we do. Abraham, very very interesting that word Abraham it means in the literal translation is Abraham approached. But Rashi tells us, "Now I've brought for you some of Rashi." I didn't bring all of Rashi on the because then it would have just been too long. But what is what does that word mean? Where do we find that word? Right. Rashi tells us in a number of places that there are three separate meanings of the word. One of the meanings is one of the meanings is going out to war going out to battle. Now that I said this is shocking just think about this Abraham. Abraham approaches for war to go out to against >> action. Okay, I want you to look closely here at the word the argument. One of the things we we need to come back and we need to focus on it. We have to understand what exactly is the argument that Abraham is making. What is he requesting from God? So here he says, "Are you going to kill are you going to destroy even at sadik with rash in other words what what what's the claim at this point what's saying >> there's only groups >> there are right so there are alongside the meaning I'm not questioning the fact that the people of stom are evil there are lots of rashim that are there but together with them presumably there are and that's again if we think about the story in our minds that's we're going to see the whole thing maybe there's 50 maybe there's 45 there's 40 etc we'll see it all now in verses. But essentially, what is Abraham saying? It sounds like there are wicked people, but there are good people. It can't be that you're going to kill the good people alongside the wicked people, right? That's that that's what it sounds like. Meaning collateral damage, whatever. That would not be that would not be fair. So, what about the if I ask you just at this point, what about the Rashim, the evil people of Storm? What is Abraham's approach over here? Does he have a problem? Is he is he right going to bat for them? No, seemingly not. Meaning that that's what it sounds like. You can destroy storm, you can kill all the wicked people just, you know, just like whatever. Maybe there's got to be a for the the to survive. Okay, that's how it sounds. Now, let's see the next say continues. Maybe there are 50 righteous people within the city. It's very interesting. Would it be possible? Would you make them perish? Who of >> Huh? >> The 50 ones that are >> just the 50. Just the 50. >> What does the say? Is it possible you would not make them perish and you would not forgive? What does mean? That's the place. That's everyone. That's what it's telling again. And as a result of the fact that there are 50 in the city, are you not going to forgive the entire place because of the 50 that are inside? In other words, at this point when I read this puk, it doesn't sound like Abraham is arguing for the sadikim. He's arguing for something much more radical. He's saying however many righteous there are as a result of the back to them. Don't destroy the rest of them. And again, we have to ask ourselves why what are you asking? What is it? Again, the question that's always the entire time has to be in the back of our minds. Abraham knows who he's talking to. Abraham knows that he's talking to God. What is it that Abraham thinks that he knows better or that God expects him to know better than God himself? Yeah, >> he worried about he already in he saw that he said he he knows that his generation is going to be saved, but he's worried about the future. He doesn't know what's going to happen to his children. Is he worried here that maybe later on when his children sin and they're going to be destroyed like Saddam and that's why he's trying to do this to >> Inter interesting. Okay. I hadn't thought about that. You're saying you're saying is it possible that the people of Storm is not it's not really that he's interested in them for their own sake so to speak but he's laying the groundwork for us to Okay, maybe that's that's an interesting it's a very creative suggestion. Um I don't know. We can come back to that maybe. In any event, he continues and then it says right that expression Rashi says is from the language of to say to God again it's it's it's shocking when you read this but he says what's the problem now how can it be that you can kill the righteous along with the wicked in other words I don't mind that you kill the wicked that's fine but don't kill the rightous along with him. So the the whole thing three are very very simple and very straightforward at first glance. When we look inside and we analyze a little bit deeper, it's not clear what the argument is. It's not it's almost not coherent. At the beginning you're saying it's not fair. Save the righteous. And then you say you're saying save everybody if there are righteous everybody has to survive. And then you're saying you can't kill the wi you can't kill the righteous but you can kill the wicked. So it's not it's not exactly clear. And again the question which we ask in the first place is of all the people in the world to be praying for Abra why do you care why are you praying about the people of okay we're going to come back and answer all these questions but that's uh as we go he says it again the the problem is that you are equating that together could it be that the judge of all the earth is not going to fulfill mishbat and of course we know that means mishbat together with staka Okay. So that's the opening that's the opening monologue. Now says now Hashem answers back. So Hashem says okay if I find 50 within the city then I will save. In other words, so it sounds like at least from the answer, we understand the main claim, the main argument here, it's not just about the saving, it's about saving everybody. Okay, we'll see. Also notice that there's something interesting about that expression. I've underlined it for you because it appears twice. It appears once in Abraham's argument appears once in in's response as well where he says what is the significance of the fact that it says 50 inside the city. Obviously inside the city we're not talking about anywhere else. So why couldn't have just said there seems to be something there. There seems to be something in that repetition and something in that phrase. We'll we'll come back to it later. Okay. Okay, for whatever reason, right, Abraham at this point seems to realize that this is a little bit of Okay, it's almost like he's taking permission. We would have expected this the beginning, but now Abraham answers back and he says, "Okay, look, you know, I let me uh essentially that's that's what he's saying. He's saying, right, please let me let me speak." He's taking apologies. I'm dust and ashes. Why? Why that here? What? So he says God, you said there are not 50. Okay. And say also why the number 50 of all numbers? You could have said 100. You could have said 200. You could have said 20. Why did you start with 50, but let's say 50? Let's say there are five less than 50. Okay. 45 again. Why 45? That's also a very interesting way of phrasing it. because of those five are you going to destroy what f those five that don't exist because of those five you're going to destroy the city so Hashem says okay I won't if I if if I find 45 won't destroy it and so it's implied that there are not 45 it doesn't say it explicitly continuing continues says okay there aren't 45 maybe there are 40. God says, "Okay, I won't do it if there's 40." Okay, what do we expect next? We've gone from 50 to 45 to 40. What do we expect coming next? 35. Okay, this is a very very mathematical audience. So he says, he says, "What about 30? So I don't understand. You went from 50 to 45 to 40. So if you're going down in all of a sudden now 30 numbers seem very strange very random and again he asks for this takes permission to speak there's not 30 maybe there's 20 god says okay I won't destroy for 20 >> so the answer for all of them >> he said the 30 >> so the truth is that for all of them the answer is implied Meaning even if we go back to the 50 right in all it says is if there are such a number then I won't won't destroy it. So it's interesting as well it doesn't anywhere in the say explicitly that God turns back and says there are not 50 there are not 30 that's implied but it doesn't say it anywhere explicitly. So he says last chance, last try, last attempt. Maybe there are 10. Okay. So the question to ask here is, Abraham, you've done so well until now and you've tried so hard. Why do you stop at 10? Why not carry on down to five? Why not carry on down to that? What's right? Why stop? >> Gold left. >> Huh? >> Many gold left >> afterwards. Afterwards. But he could have said, "Okay, you said not not 10, maybe five." Okay, so we'll see that as well. God says, "Okay, that's it. I've had enough. I'm going." God goes back to his place, whatever that means. Abraham goes back to his place and that's it. That's the end of the story. Okay? And then we know the continuation is that ultimately that storm is uh is going to be destroyed. Okay? So there are a lot of questions here. There are a lot of unanswered things, a lot of very very cryptic uh things going on in this. As I say, very very shocking and very very dramatic encounter. Let's unpack some of the questions and some of the things. Again, the main question, the the main thing that really strikes for me and we we spoke about it, but when you look at these and the question is you have here an argument, you have a claim. What is it that Abraham is asking for? What is the argument about? Is it about the fact that there he says maybe there are okay but the question is maybe there areim and therefore what is it? Maybe there are sadikim and therefore those sikim should not should they should be saved and everybody else can be destroyed. Maybe I'm saying maybe there are sadikim and therefore the entire place deserves to be to be rescued. And if so, if that's the case, why why do the other people deserve it? Right? At the end of the day, why why are these numbers the numbers that they are? Why does Abraham stop when he stops? Essentially, we can ask another question. Is Abraham satisfied with the answer that he receives at the end? If the whole argument is maybe there are sadakim and I I don't want the sadikim to be killed because that is indiscriminate justice and god says well there are not sadikim so says okay so then so then it'll be destroyed if it's something more than that then maybe is not so satisfied again maybe there are less than 10 sadakim if the question is about those sadikim if there are less than 10 what if there are five sadakim in in the city we don't know the the sukim just ended the fact that there are 10 and the whole argument there are not 10 and the whole argument stops so Maybe there are five, maybe there are four, maybe there are three. What? >> There'll be no minion. Okay, so we so we so so we're going to get into that. But are those individuals going to be saved? Now the truth is we know we know that there are some individuals in the city of storm who enter the category of sadikim for these purposes who are saved, right? That is Lot and his family and they are ultimately saved or some of them. So let's see. Let's have a look at Rashi some of Russia. We haven't brought everything but but some of the rashi where he he explains some of these ideas and we'll look at some ideas from some of the other that will help us to to unpack. Okay. So remember the beginning before we got into the whole argument the the introduction which was very very strange the introduction which was should I hide from it's like God is like thinking to himself like should I tell him or should I not tell right obviously it doesn't mean that but what what does it mean what are trying to tell us so rashi says it's like a rhetorical question is it possible could I possibly not tell Abraham what I'm doing which again we don't find by any other says could I not give him his he says it's not nice for God to do this without letting Abraham know I have given him this land as an inheritance okay so this is the first thing that's going to help us just unpack the of the story a a little bit. Rashi tells us we talk about storm maybe storm and Amarad there were actually five cities. So once I understand there are five cities things start to make sense. I say aha so now I understand where the number 50 comes from because 50 means there are five cities and each one has a minan right 5* 10 that's 50. All right she says that etc. But more than that, why do I have to tell him? I've called him Abraham, which means he's going to be the father of many nations. He is the father, at least the spiritual father of many nations on earth. I'm going to destroy these nations and not let him know. Okay? So, that wouldn't make sense. Have a look. We'll come back to Russia in a moment, but I want to just uh uh explain this point. Have a look on the third page. You have your source number seven on your handle is the katams. This is a piece that's printed in the introduction to the he says something tremendous something remarkable and and and essentially answers for us the question of why it says what he says is the following. I'll say the general idea and then we'll read it inside. er says that he doesn't say by any other prophet that God says should I tell them so to speak because once a prophet reaches a level reaches a a spiritual level reaches a level of nu so it makes sense and it's fitting that he's going to receive that prophecy of Hashem but he says that Abraham in fact did not reach that spiritual level says Abraham didn't have time to reach that level himself to work on his own to invest in his own growth so to speak because he was so busy going out and giving and helping the rest of the world and therefore he says something startling says means actually I don't need to tell Abraham I don't need to he's not on that you know he's not on that level in terms of uh of of of prophecy but nonetheless I'm going to tell him because the reason he's not on that level the reason he's given up of his own growth is because of what he's giving to others, because of what he's investing in my children, in his children. Okay? And it's something it's something remarkable and it's something for us to think about when we talk about the balance between one's own growth, one one's own growth and giving to others, right? There's something something very very uh fundamental to think about here. But says says source number seven. He was not on this high level of the Rama his introduction to to there's eight chapters. Therefore it's called he talks there about what is necessary how one becomes a na'vi right what one needs to the levels intellectually spiritually the heights that one needs to reach it's not so easy um but he says saysam Abraham did not reach this level to to be in by himself with his thoughts and to connect himself to this uh to to this level all the time he was busy teaching He was involved in bringing other people closer to God rather than engaging in bringing himself to ever higher levels. So obviously if those he was teaching were on a higher level then he would have reached that level himself but they were on a lower level. So he had to uh he had to speak to them where they were. Amazing. Amazing. Says he continues. In other words, why did Abraham not reach the greatest spiritual levels, not reach the greatest heights of prophecy? Not because he was watching the football, but because he was involved because he cared about the honor of Hashem and he was trying to spread that into the world. And therefore, he sacrificed for himself. And here's the paradox. Because he sacrificed for himself in that way, God says, I'm going to bring him up, right? So to speak, he loses out this level. if all of this was done because of his service, because of his great love for me, it doesn't make sense that he's therefore going to lose out on it. And therefore, that's the meaning of amazing says when Hashem says, should I is it is it conceivable that I will not tell Abraham this prophecy? He says, what the Torah is implying is yes, it's conceivable that I won't tell him because he's not on that level because he sacrificed his own spiritual growth in order for others. And that again that ties in to the whole story of storm and that again ties into the whole story of what is what is taking place here. Let's go back to Rashi. So Rashi continues and again I say I'm skipping there are there is more commentary on Russian which you don't have in front of you but you're welcome to go and look at it after the sh. So he says maybe there are 50. We ask the question why 50 right? There are five places and in each one of these five I'm questioning maybe there are there are 10 in each sorry these people are Jewish >> they're not Jewish this is there's no there's no such thing at this point >> right so what the whole idea about minion >> no okay so it's not it's not minion in the sense of if there's a minion and they can get together and they can say baraku and kadusha right that's not what it's not what we But why a min we we we assume right a minion is 10 people that's learned out from an ad that is a community that is a certain that is a certain minimal unit that we have that we that we call 10 people okay um so he says again remember so remember the question we asked are we praying who is praying for is he praying for the is he praying for everybody so here says So that sounds like there's a two-tiered argument here. It sounds like Rashi is say he's saying first Abra is saying right you should save the you should save everybody. In other words theim in the merit of the you should save the entire city. And if that's not going to work, so I say at least at least save theim. Okay. The problem with that interpretation doesn't quite fit into the because how does it start? It starts off the first. So you could say that's maybe sort of the opening for the whole thing. And then he says his real argument is maybe since there's you should save everybody and then saying if you're not going to save everybody so then I'll say okay that's how that's how Rashi seems to uh seems to understand it and then he says continues continues we ask why all of a sudden do we get to 45 is the number which is the anomaly here right understand if you would say 50 40 30 20 10 okay makes sense but why 45 and then why if it's 45 why not 35 right so he says why 45 you would have nine in each city you together with them that makes 10 okay he continues then he says so then now he changes tactics in other words the way Russia understands is like this when I'm asking asking for 50, I'm asking for all the cities, all five cities to be saved. When I'm asking for 45, I'm asking for all five cities to be saved. I'm saying maybe there's nine in each city. Nine together with that makes 10. But then he says, even that's not not enough. So then he gets to 40. What are you saying when you get to 40? So he says he's saying okay I understand at this point that at least one of the cities is going to be wiped out but maybe there are 10 sakim in four of the cities maybe there are 10 sakim in three of the cities maybe there are two of the cities okay so at this point I'm you know asking for for each one of those at least one of those cities should be saved and then he says we end off with 10 less than 10 he does not ask He says, "How do I know that I don't go below 10?" Because in the times of Noah, right, there was Noah and his wife and three sons and their wives. That's eight people. Eight people couldn't save the world. And he said, "We've already asked for nine when we asked for 45." Okay. So, you could ask a question. Well, why don't you ask for nine by itself? 45 was nine in each of the cities. Maybe one of the cities. That's a question. But uh but nonetheless, he says we know from that we don't need that below that there's no hope. Again, here it sounds like again that's eight people that saved the entire place. It sounds like here it's not just about saving it's not just about saving the but it's about saving everybody. Okay. And the question again is why? So have a look that uh the draid brought to you on source number three. This is the taz. You're familiar with the taz is one of the commentaries on the he also wrote with different works and one of them is called the david which is a commentary on rash's commentary. Therefore it is a super commentary. I love that word but it is a commentary on the commentary and therefore the dvavid is one of the explanations on rashi. Um in fact there are many commentaries that are written on rashi's commentary. But this is what the dvavid says. Again he's he's addressing this point that uh that we've been asking the entire time. He says kashet says the obvious question is you started off questioning asking why how is it just that you're going to kill that the righteous will die along with the wicked obviously the are going to die and then he says again if you look in the we said was can the righteous perish with the wicked and then It says, "Will the entire place perish?" In other words, I'm implying that the wicked should also be saved. So he says, in other words, if my first prayer was accepted, so then I would ask, then I would ask for more. He says, "But the way it's just it's not logical the order the sequence here. You're saying first you're saying you're asking for the small thing and then you're asking for something more." Right? Normally you would say, you know, I'm asking for something you you ask somebody for you have a request that you make and you say, "Can I have something?" And you say, "Okay, if you won't give me that, so at least give me, you know, something less." So he's saying at least save first of all I'm saying save save the righteous and you know what if that's not enough you save the righteous well then actually you should save everybody it's the order here is is is wrong so therefore says that like how he explains what she said other what he's saying. The first point is obvious. So, obviously, you're not going to kill, you're not going to make the righteous perish along with the wicked. That's clear. I don't even need to say anything. I don't need to qu that. I don't need to question. But goes much deeper. Obviously, you won't kill just theim, but allow those to save in their merit. Save the entire place. And then he says because then he goes back he says so my first request is actually save the entire place if that's not going to work then we go back to the basic which is what doesn't need to be stated which is at least save the as we see going on that doesn't that doesn't happen either because those do not exist reverse I think has opens up this entire this entire for us in a new light and he focuses on specifically that phrase which I mentioned before. This is going to help us understand really what is all about. Have a look at source number six and again I brought I haven't brought the entire passage as a very very long piece but I brought a lot of it. We'll read through because it's uh it's really fundamental says as follows. He says says once tells Abraham about this whole plan to destroy these five cities. There's one thing that's that's that's gnawing at Abraham. He says he says there is no as we just saw there is no question in Abraham's mind. Ara does not suspect God so to speak that the righteous are unjustly going to perish. That's not the question. That's why when he says when he says it doesn't mean you know God forbid don't do it. It means I know you won't do it obviously. He says I know that if if storm is going to be destroyed storm will be destroyed the righteous amongst they will escape. There's no question obviously even if it's one out of thousands he says but and this ties in with the whole introduction and tells us why Abraham knows what it means to be at the question that Abra asks himself and this is why God tells Abraham about this is Abraham says if I was there if I was the individual if I was the one in storm how would I feel and what would I think about What's going on? If I was the one individual going to survive from that destruction, had it been that he was living in storm, what would Abraham do if he was in storm? He would open up his tents on all four sides and he would bring people in and he would talk to them and he would try and convert. He would do what Noah failed to do and he would do what Lot failed to do. But he would be something else. He would never despair. He wouldn't give up hope for those people ultimately if he failed in that mission. But he would mourn just as much and he would grieve for all those who he was not able to save. Skip to the second paragraph. You know what it means when it say when it doesn't say there are 50 of the city at the city. It's within the city. By the way the says he says what does it mean? He's saying it doesn't have to be doesn't have to be that. It means within the city relative to the wickedness of storm. Surely there's 50 people that are righteous to the extent that they don't deserve destruction. Not that they're complete. That's how he understands that phrase of says something else. He says means that they are within the city that they are involved in the city that they are able to influence those around them. says there might be storm but the of your definition that does not exist. What does that mean? We're looking for the type of in whose merit again it's not when we say save the city save the entire city because of the tarikim that are inside he doesn't mean that there is some scholar he doesn't mean there's some mystical power you know the fact that you've got your you know that are sitting somewhere and in their merit the city is going to be saved it's not what Abra is asking is saying the following he's saying maybe there are 50 there are people that are within the city and even though they're all wicked now but that influence is there that potential is there there are people those sikim in whose merit they might be able to change they might be able to tell the other people to leave their wicked ways and to and to act differently the same way that that's what Abra has done in the world again what no failed to do and what Lot didn't even try to do but this is what Abraham would have done and this is what he's asking for he says second line Now the second paragraph towards the bottom of the page. Who is this in whose merit the city will be saved? He doesn't say ah look at them. to the rest of the of his city. He doesn't just sit in his ivory tower and say, "I'm fine." Remember, it all ties together beautifully. I'll save myself because the minute that he says, "I'm fine and I'll just save myself and everybody else can." Well, then you're not at sadik. You're not the sadik. If he's truly at sadik, he understands he's in that situation for a reason. At le the merit of that type of individual, the city will be saved. And the message here is storm was so lost that even that kind that a few even 10 people like that did not exist. There is by the way there's another there's a beautiful interpretation I heard this from Rabbi Saxs in the name of Rabbi Saxs we question the numbers we went from remember we went from 50 to 45 to 40 to etc. So Rashi said when we're going down from 40 to 30 to 20 it means that there are 10 city five cities excuse me I'm only looking for 10 for 10 sikim in each city less and that's not going to be enough. So I'm asking maybe four cities can be saved maybe three cities can be saved maybe two cities can be saved. So there's an alternative explanation that says we don't go from five to four to three cities. The entire time Ara is asking for all the cities. So when he says there's 50, it means maybe there are 10 sedakim in each city. And when he says 45, he says maybe there are nine sedakim in each city. And when he says 40, he means maybe there are eight sakim in each city. And 30 means maybe there are six. Right? And 20 means that maybe there are four. And 10 means maybe there are two sikim in each city. So then you can ask the question why didn't he ask for five? Why didn't he ask for five? Maybe there's one saddak in each city and that's enough to save them. So the answer that I heard and the name Rabbi Sax he said and it ties in exactly with what Ra says because if you have one Saddic in a city that's not a Saddic. >> If there's one Saddic in a city that's not a real Saddic. Meaning one person you couldn't in you couldn't impact you couldn't influence at least one other person. You're the only one. Again you're sitting in your ivory tower. You've made no change. You've made no impact. Not even one other person. So that's hopeless. So that's what that's what Abra that that that's what he says and that's what Abraham says here. So I think again going back to the question we asked which is what is Abraham governing for? Who is he asking for? What is he praying about? We could answer in a word that Abraham sees potential. Abraham is praying for the potential of the people of Storm. They may be wicked now. He says but surely surely there's somebody there who can help them. Who can raise them up? Who can bring them onto this path? Surely there are 10 Sikim within the city. 10 9 8 whatever it is and Hashem says no. He says for for them the hope is lost. But Abraham refuses to give up hope. He refuses to give up hope until the point where says to him in this case there is no hope. But the message for us is storm of course is the is the exception. Storm happened one once upon a time. But in our own lives in our own world in our own community is never ever can we give up hope and never ever can we lose give up on the potential of people. There's one more point I want to make. I know we're we're running out of time, but one one one more thing which I saw there's a beautiful dasha of Rabbi Lamb by Norman Lamb. This was a dasha that was given in 1954. It's called How to Debate with God. I brought for you some excerpt before we read the excerpts that are on the page. Let me read to you some of the excerpts that are not here because he says he says essentially Abraham as we know was not the only person to argue with God. He writes, he says, "It is a popular undertaking to argue with Hashem." He says, "I say it is a popular undertaking because since Abraham, men have not stopped debating with God." Moses carried out lengthy debates with God. At one point, his rebuttal became so sharp that he said, "Raise me from your book if you'll not consent to me and save Israel." Pictured God inviting Israel to join him in debate. Yona Yona Navi engaged God in a protracted duel because he Yona was worried about the safety of Israel while God was concerned about the safety of Nineve as well. Maybe that relates to the what you asked at the beginning the wonderful ofism. What a unique place in Jewish history. We all know the stories of arguing with God so to speak almost solely because of his debates with God and his intercession for Jewish sinners and his remarkable way of making them seem like saints. So we have a long tradition of the Jewish people arguing with God going back all the way to Abraham. And then says Rabbi Lamb, right? Really giving a rebuke here. He says, "We too of November 1954." And I add that was November 1954. Let's think how this applies in 2026. We too debate with God. We demand a new home. We insist upon a better car. We argue for a fancier neighborhood. We eloquently engage God in debates for health and for prosperity. And if God sometimes refuses to submit to our demands, we counter with that stereotyped hacknade and empty rebuttal. But I deserve it, God. After all, I'm a fellow with a good heart. I've never done anything wrong to anyone. What says Rabam? And he's obviously being cynical here to the point. He says, "We all argue with God. Look how Abraham argued and look where we argue." That's a message here. And he says he he quotes it he quotes. Kazal really say that there are two uh types of argument. We find Abraham and we find in another individual who argues with God throughout and that is right and he says he quotes Kazal who say that that Abra was the example of a mature argument with God and was ultimately the immature argument. Let's read what's on the sheet in front of you source number eight. So this we'll close off. He says here then is the difference. Abraham debates with spiritual maturity with spiritual ripeness. Ear of debates with immaturity is spiritually raw and underdeveloped. One's words are sour, the other sweet. Abraham's attitude is expressed by the fact that he debates while standing before God in prayer and addressing his remarks to God. While Eve sits in his parlor and complains about God to some friends. In other words, Ara doesn't come up and say, "God, what are you doing?" He says, "I'm coming from a place." Remember it's not by co the as well is a beautiful explanation you can see it after it's on the sheet of what those words mean come from a place of humility from a place of submission from a place of god I know that you are the master of the world I know you are the god of mish but therefore I don't understand what you are doing and how this could be whereas if comes from a different place entirely he says here there are two ways of debating with god you can debate like or like an a will ask his questions and think carefully. He might assume there are those who dedicate their lives to such problems and ask guidance. He will offer the challenge in a polite, humble, and intelligent way. Skipping. But a neot type does nothing of the sort. He tells the rabbi off and he snubs God. He measures religion and the worship of God by his own standards of what is right and what is not right. Abraham, the sweet and mature debater, might have lost the debate. Saddam was destroyed and is desolate to this very day, but he won the other world. He emerged unscathed, a glorious loser. The biblical passage ends with the words, "Abraham Shavelim Kum." Abraham returned to his place. Not one chip was there in his spiritual stature. He was as great and as holy as before, although he lost the debate. When we debate with God as we may, let us do so with mellowess, understanding, and maturity. and in the synagogue if nay hashem let us not do so with a sourness and irreverence and smuggness and impudence better let us lose like Abraham then win like you so that is the message that we take we understand what Abraham was debating about it's all about potential it's all about seeing the ability to influence others it's all about bringing out that greater potential in the world and the message ultimately the takeaway for us is that was the first debate that was how Abraham argued with God and since then The Jewish people as you may have noticed have never ever stopped arguing with God and with others as well. But that is the way and that is what Raam is telling us. Let us learn from Abraham from what is the mindset? What is the starting place? What what is the framework from which we are coming? And in that way we can how does he say it? We can ultimately even if we lose the argument but we emerge we emerge winners ultimately.