The casino almost ruined my life - Sruli -S2 Ep9

I'm going to go 75 on the highway. I'm going to purposely crash into the guardrail. Hopefully, I don't injure myself too badly or die altogether. I'm going to take my wallet, throw it out of the car, and I'm going to tell my wife I got into an accident. The guy mugged me. It was almost like the casino had a force field around it. If you're outside of the casino, you have money problems, you have Shambai's problems, you have family drama. It's an escapa to such a degree where in the casino, nothing mattered. At the height of my addiction, I was lying to my wife. She did not know where I was going. In the beginning of our marriage, I wanted her to feel like I'm a big mah. I have free rooms in Atlantic City. So now I got to start pointing the finger at other people. It was the casino. It was the player. It was this. It was the table. Next time I'll play at a different table, a different amount, a different game. Maybe I should play slot machines first. What's the big deal? I'm eight and a half years clean. I barash worked on my finances. I own a home. I have stability. My wife trusts me. Even if I gamble, I don't have to even tell anybody. It's not really even a gamble. >> What message of gratitude do you have for your wife that she stood by you? Okay. Uh we are meeting a person today who uh represents courage. Courage in the purest form. Uh for years he lived in a silent storm called gambling. It became a secret life a hidden battle uh that affected all phases of life. But the story doesn't end here. The story ends that he walked into a room, a room which is uh called GA, Gambling Anonymous. He said, "I need help." He said, "I don't want to I can't take this anymore for one day." Said, "Enough is enough." His name is Sully, but I'll tell you, I mentioned uh Gambling Anonymous. Um I know uh even in the rooms when you get together, they don't mention last names. >> Correct. >> So maybe we shouldn't even mention the name. We're going to stick We're going to stick to Surirly. >> Yeah. >> And I want to understand what is the reason even when you guys get together. >> Last names make no difference. So explain why. >> Yeah. There's there's a lot of behind a lot of things behind it. But the 12 steps was founded on spiritual principles even though >> they weren't necessarily uh religious at the time that they came up with all these. >> They're usually in churches or in places like that. are there many almost all meetings from all 12step programs are in the side of a church or >> in the basement of church >> the basement >> you know Rabbi Tiski used to say that there's more spirituality in the basement of the churches than sometimes in shs >> exactly exactly and so the spiritual foundation was it's not important who I am because you have doctors you have lawyers you have business people you have you might even have rabbis you have professional people people with maybe a status but when we come into a room we're looking for recovery We're not looking for >> a government. We're not looking for, you know, a big mah, you know, right? >> In our world, we have a lot of that, the gaba rash, >> the Russian Shiva. But over here, we we check the last name at the door because it's not about who the person is. It's about principle. It's not about personality. So >> to protect anonymity, which is a big part of it for a lot of people, but really it's behind the spiritual backing of it doesn't really matter who I am because we're all equal at the end of the day. You're sitting in a room could be 10, 15, 20 people, whatever it might be. There's men, there's women, there's Jews, non-Jews, religious, non-religious, atheists. It gambling or any addiction doesn't have prejudice. Doesn't matter. >> And it and it's also humble. It keeps everybody at the same level. Very humble. >> And then you don't feel like, oh, he's running the program. No, everybody's equal. They take there's there's something called a chairperson who's like sort of the the main person leading the meeting. he'll decide who to call on or what topics to talk about. You have somebody who's a treasurer because we don't want to take money from people. We want to support ourselves, >> right? >> So, you have to keep track, you know, you have to pay the church or wherever you're staying. There's people who have announcements to make whatever it might be and they take turns. You know, in most rooms, they vote every 90 days, somebody else. So, like this, everybody feels equal. >> Wow. It makes a lot of sense. >> Surely, welcome to the struggle. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay. So before we start, we want to get in the the nitty-gritty of gambling. Um where did you grow up? Tell us a little bit about yourself. >> Sure. Sure. I grew up in Bar Park. Um I went to Bab as you can tell. >> Yeah. >> Um until I was about 15. >> Um and then you know spiritually I took a different turn. I ended up in Yeshiva called Mountainale. >> Oh. >> Upstate New York. >> Upstate New York. Yeah. Famous. And uh yeah I went from Bora Park the epicenter you know >> to mountain flavor a complete different flavor. >> Yeah. Yeah. And my rashiva there was Rabbi Rotherberg you know was a big big impact in my life and gave me a very >> different understanding of of things of Yiddish that I didn't know. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then um you know by 21 I went to B&H Photo like all other Jewish people go for their first job. >> Right. And um you know I so I say I grew up in the kidish background. I grew up in the more yeshivish or modern background. Um I also ended up in in another yeshiva that was more of a brisk mahalak. So >> you have a flavor you have a flavor of everything. And then you uh got married. >> Got married. So I grew up in in Bar Park in Flatbush and my wife's from my got married 15 years ago. Actually we just celebrated 15 years. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> That is an accomplishment. 50 years. >> Yeah. Together with battling this addiction, that's even more. >> You have kind of >> Hashem. We have four kids and we've lived in Mani. We just moved to Havstro a few years ago. >> Nice, beautiful community. And uh >> and it's growing, right? This place is growing. >> Yeah. Yeah. We have 11 shs now. >> Wow. 11 shooles in Astro. >> Yeah. Has a history of uh there was a there was a Yiddish place before. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> There's a lot of history. and the the person who built all the developments was Jewish also. >> Wow. Amazing stuff. So my first question to you is what's what was when was the first time that you got introduced to gambling. >> So ironically the first time was actually as a very young boy in Yeshiva. So I think I was about 8 years old and in Bab and they gave out for the boys to collect money. They gave out these little raffle tickets. It was like really cheap. It was also before Kaneka, like that type of >> it could. Yeah. Kanek one of the times. One of those times. Yeah. >> And so it's like a little scratch off, you know, if you have three fruits then you win, right? >> And so they gave it to the boys to go around collecting during recess or or on Sunday. And um the first day I got it, I was sitting in in class and uh I remember thinking to myself, what if one of these I had like 50 cards. What if one of these is like $500 winner? Yeah. >> Would be such a shame for somebody else to have it. >> Yeah. So I figured let me scratch off one and try my luck. This is the middle of yeshiva middle class and I ended up going through all 50. Not one of them was even a dollar. They were all the point really was to raise money for the yeshiva, not to give away money. >> But I didn't know anything about gambling obviously at that point. I was a young you know innocent boy. But that adrenaline that rush I later experienced gambling you know in a casino for a lot more money. >> But that that did something. >> It brought back that memory. Yeah. >> Yeah. But as a kid that even as a kid you felt a a juice flowing. >> Yeah. It was it was that that adrenaline rush, that rush of >> what if this is a winner now? What would I have done if it was even a $500 winner at the 8-year-old boy that >> you don't know but >> but the excitement that potential of what it could be and then nothing really developed. I really enjoyed playing a lot of strategy games, you know, chess, ratico, games where you think and I was also very into sports in my teenage years and I was watching sports and all of a sudden one day they decided to play poker, a world series of poker, professionals, amateurs and this guy, this amateur person never happened before in history that non-professional won the World Series of Poker and I think that just took poker to a whole new place in the whole firm community. Everybody I knew saw that guy. I'm going to be the next guy. >> And we started playing in house games and we started, you know, really connecting to that. And then of course I even remember in between these two times I remember on Kaneka, you know, my families would get together, a bunch of cousins in a hall somewhere, whatever it was, big family bashm >> and I remember people playing f the adults and I was just watching and it was >> to me this was like watching sports. It was exciting. Now, if you're playing, it makes sense. It could be exciting, >> but if you're watching and you're not involved, you have no skin in the game, >> but I was fascinated and but I didn't >> there was no way for me to play out this feeling other than just I waited every year for the one the family get together, you know, and it stopped at some point and and that was it. But then once I was like 18 or 19 years old, we started playing poker. Everybody was playing poker and especially in the long winter months of Shabusim, I would get together with friends and we play a tournament style. It's not dangerous. Everybody puts in 20, $25. >> We had pizza, played pool, maybe watch a bowl game. It was a fun atmosphere and yeah, somebody won, you know, 10 people, everybody gives $20. What are you talking about already? But it was exciting and >> I was really drawn to it and it took time, you know, I believe that and and the 12 steps talk about this. There's a certain point of where you reach you cross that invisible line of >> casual gambling to slightly more than casual to uncontrolled gambling. Nobody knows exactly where that line is. If we did, I think people would stop before they crossed it, right? >> But one day you wake up and you're not only >> behind the line a little bit, you're you're way past way past that. >> Yeah. >> And it's amazing stuff. Now later when you started getting into gambling and you know it took it took you over. What is the feeling when you sit and can you describe the feeling when you sit in that casino with no watches? No no no no no no watches on the wall. There's no time and um you're just sitting over there. What what's what is that feeling about? >> Yeah. So, I'm going to describe the feeling, but just a disclaimer, I'm going to describe it might sound fun and it might sound exciting because I'm trying to go back to myself in my mind where I was experiencing that >> and it felt like a lot of fun and it felt very exciting. >> But being removed from gambling now for over eight and a half years by Hashem, >> I see that it was not fun. >> It is destruction. That's what it is. >> Once you're Yeah. Once you're removed far from it, you can actually see the damage, >> right? you stayed back and you look back. >> Yeah. When you're living in it. So basically to me, you know, addiction is about short-term amnesia. Because if a person experiences pain, you touch something really hot. You'll remember maybe one or two times, but at a certain point, you're going to remember that's too hot. I'm not going to go there. That street is dangerous. I'm not going to go there. That food does this to me. I'm not going to touch it. Why do people go back to gambling if they keep losing? Because the brain has this short-term amnesia where it's control altdelete. You just swipe it out tomorrow and you know >> I love this explanation. I never heard it this way. It's a it's an amnesia because you try to logically talk to yourself and people around you try to tell you it's destructive behavior. It is going to ruin your life. The next morning it's like you need breakfast. >> Nothing changed. >> Yeah. Listen, you know, there's a lot of people who bring down that really a person is living every day a new life every single day. But also your gets renewed every day. So really today is the only day. And that actually ironically is the flip side of recovery which is it's just for today. I don't have to g not gamble for the rest of my life. I just have to get through now. But it's the same thing. It's almost like you wake up in a new body and without that past experience. And even if people remind you or if you remind yourself, I I I I lived in denial with my gambling because I didn't wait till I had a lot of money. You know, I didn't have access to a lot of money when I was gambling. It was a few hundred. >> Whatever you had in your pocket. >> Yeah. And so I had friends who they lost their entire paycheck. As soon as they got it, they cashed it and they went down to a casino and they couldn't leave until their pocket was empty. >> So what is the >> And I didn't think that that was me. I lived in that denial of I don't have a problem and my brain, you know, usually tries to be logical and that's why I said I enjoy playing all these strategy games and I really considered poker not gambling. Poker is a game of skill. You can't you can't just always win based on skill but it's 70% 80% you know blackjack and a lot of you know uh roulette and all these real gambling games. It's mish luck. You turn the wheel whatever it comes it comes. So, I really lived in this denial where I I didn't have this problem. And if my brain went to a place, but you lost this money, you lost this time. It didn't end up being exciting. Why? Why do you keep going there? And I would take that thought and say, no, this time it's going to be different. And that's the definition of insanity, right? You doing the same thing but expecting a different result. But I wasn't doing the same thing because today my being is not that. I'm not that guy from yesterday didn't have any luck. The skill I have every day, the luck wasn't on my side. Okay, today the luck is going to be on my side. And not only that, but over time, especially when I feel that my addiction really escalated after I got married and came into the marriage with some financial uh troubles, you know, owing a lot of money to credit cards, which I didn't want to tell my wife at the time. And it wasn't necessarily because of gambling, meaning I didn't fund my gambling with credit cards, but because I was gambling with any money I had. >> We had to use credit cards to pay the regular bills. >> Right. But but when you after you said it escalated after marriage, is it because you wanted to make back the money also? That was like, let me make Yeah. I I didn't think I was losing a lot of money because I was going with just a few hundred dollars, which is not typical. Most compulsive gamblers go with many hundreds worth many thousands and that way you have enough time to gamble. But if you play poker and you play conservatively like I did, you could make $3, $400 last five, six, seven hours cuz you go up and you go down. And to me that was good enough. The ironic part was that I would feel just as happy walking out of the casino after eight hours of playing poker with the same amount of money that I came in. I would be just as happy. I broke even. Wow. >> Wow. >> Why? I could have just broke even by not showing up and then I would have the eight hours. Yeah. Plus many times, which almost never happened, I left with less money or all the money that I came with not being there. >> So, it's it's really it's a fascinating thing that all of a sudden you get sucked into this. Okay, it was just bad luck. Next time it's going to be different. And I got to the point where, as I said, I was escalating and I started using behind it. I started saying, "Well, Hashem is going to help me because I'm I'm playing in a casino. I'm not taking money from the casino. They're rich anyway. It's not like I'm taking money from other people." >> You didn't look at it as an avail. >> No. And that's >> No, you looked at it as what am I doing? I mean, I just I like to play a little bit and I just want to come home with a couple of downs and help a few other people also. >> Exactly. And you know, I always use this analogy and many people in the rooms use this. Um, some people like playing golf. Uh, golf is expensive. Some people like going bowling. If you play three, four games, it could also be expensive. Some people like going to the movies. Everybody has a different sport. This is my sport. >> Yeah. >> And I don't do it every day. I'm not I'm not a compulsive gambler. I'm not going to go every day. And I thought I didn't go every day. >> And that combination of not going every day. And not I didn't always leave the casino with zero dollars. You know, there was always a credit card. There was always some money in one of my bank accounts, but most of the time I left with less money than I wanted to really leave with. And yet still and I started going back to these of Hashem is going to help me, you know. So I started being really the days that I would d before I went to the casino and I would have in mind, you know, Hashem, I want to do good with this money. I'm not looking to become some big millionaire and have a big I want to I want to help my family. I want to help myself. I really have good intentions here. And once I win, even just a few hundred thousand, I don't need the millions. You know, I'm going to stop and I'm never going to do this again. And I would start and then I started coming up with this idea. Maybe if I gave maser before I went down there, I would win the amount times 10. And I remember I was dabbing by Satar here Boulevard and I was giving out money like crazy and people were the collectors were flocking to me. Some guys giving out money. >> By the time I finished I had nothing left to gamble with >> but in my head I was convinced that this was going to help me win. And and not only that, in the casino, while you're waiting for a hand to either happen or not to happen, in my head, I'm thinking the whole time, "Hashem, please help me. Hashem, please help me." But where am I? I'm in a casino. Atlantic City is one of the filthiest places in the world. As a matter of fact, that's why they built the casinos there all those years ago, because it was a dump and no one was going there. >> But I was going to ask you a question. Why are they is gambling connected to immorality? Why is it so close these two? >> Yeah. So, I don't think people realize that when I started playing poker in house games, I wasn't even playing with there was no girls. There was nothing inappropriate. >> But when you go to a casino, they have waitresses. They don't, you know, the nicest casino, the most classiest one, it's still inappropriate, right? >> And not to mention all the things that are going on right outside the casino. >> And they give you rooms and they >> they give you free they give you free rooms, >> right? >> The rooms are so free that they cost you thousands and thousands of dollars. And not only that, you you then need a credit card to still check in because in case you damage the room or whatever. >> And most of us are tapped out. So by the time we're there for 12, maybe 14, 18 hours and we feel like at least I have a place to sleep, you know, when I was single, >> I would go up there and then they say, "Where's your credit card? I used my credit card to gamble. I don't have anything left." So I couldn't even take the room. So the free rooms, it's it's definitely not free. But Atlantic City was the the first time I went down there. It was so amazing. you know, the the lights, >> the glitz and the glamour. >> The glitz and the glamour. It's the lowest of low places. If if not for the casino, you wouldn't find yourself there. Forget about as a from observant person as as anybody. You wouldn't want to find yourself there. It's mamish, the lowest of the low places. >> And somehow, and the funny thing is going into recovery, I found out it's in the back of a church or I thought originally was inside of a church. Oh, I'm a person. I can't go there. But I can go to the casino where there's immodest dressed people. Not to mention that I don't have an addiction to alcohol. But alcohol is free. You just have to tip the waitress. >> Why would a place give you free alcohol >> and you know, not appropriately dressed women. Why would they do that all? And you just have to give a dollar tip. >> Because of the money, you're going to lose gambling. And they make the temperature just cold enough where you're slightly uncomfortable and yet you still can't get out of your seat. I remember they used to change the decks and the cards every certain amount of time so that there's no cheating and the cards don't get bent. And that process took five minutes and there was plenty of time for me to go use the bathroom. >> Right. >> But I was so worried, what if somehow I get the lead and here's my pocket aces, my big hand and here's where I was meant to win. Especially Hashem is going to help me. Right. Right. >> And now I'm not going to be here. So I would not even go during those 5 minutes and it would be hours sometimes 10 12 hours holding in going to the bathroom and I the next hand and the next break and the and I just couldn't get up. It was cold. I was hungry. I was tired. I needed the bathroom but nothing mattered. And that was the the addiction to me is that feeling of that nothing else matter all calculated. >> Yeah. So my financial worries, my shell and bias problems >> feel in control sitting over there. You feel like like a million dollars. You you feel like uh the you're in you're in the place where you want to be. You you feel hugged. What do you feel? >> I didn't feel that. I felt just it was almost like the casino had a force field around it that in if you're outside of the casino, you have money problems, you have Shan Bay's problems, you have family drama, you have all your pro whatever each person has. >> It's an escape. And it's it's an escape to such a degree where in the casino nothing mattered, >> right? >> My wife unfortunately didn't matter. My children, my my Yiddish guy didn't matter. Nothing mattered. As a matter of fact, >> it was a place that I I looked so forward to going cuz that that >> feeling of it wasn't really calmness cuz I was so nervous. What if I lose this hand and I wanted to win it? >> But it was a certain escape where nothing else >> in your mind. what stuff was escaping from your mind and you could focus only on that. >> There's that there's very few things that can do that and >> and I know that a lot of people say whatever their addiction is, they say this is the worst one and there's a lot of debate which is the worst one. >> Yeah. And I I can't answer them because I don't have all the addictions after that. >> But gambling is really the only one that is so much more psychological than any of the others. Cuz with drugs and alcohol, there's a physical reaction that you're getting from your supplements. With, you know, let's say sex addiction or food addiction, there's dopamine hits. There's there's a physical reaction to whatever the addiction is giving you. And you get that from gambling. The adrenaline is definitely that. But in addition to that, unlike the other addictions, it's so much more mental. >> And it's not even about the win. I remember when I was down to my last few dollars and I would go to the slot machines where you could bet a penny at a time. And maybe somehow I win a hundred times and then 100 times that 100 I could finally get $100 to go play poker. The excitement of winning those few pennies was the same as a $3,000 hand that I could have won >> because I that's the feeling that it's not about the money. >> It it you think it's about the money when you're in it. My goal was to walk out with hundreds of thousands of dollars, >> right? >> But in the moment, it's that that just living on that edge has a certain adrenaline that I I don't know of anything else that gives it to you. and and let's say food and even sex. Those are things you need to have in your life in a healthy way. If a person who goes to OA, you're allowed to eat. You're even allowed to eat certain foods that maybe a nutritionist wouldn't tell you to eat. There's a certain rules that you have to follow. There's no sugar, whatever it might be, but you have to eat. And sex also, as long as you're with your spouse, it's it's not against the program. But there's no form of gambling or alcohol or drugs that you can have that's acceptable if you want to be sober. You have a little bit and it's a beer for somebody who drank heavy alcohol. A beer not going to do much, >> but guess what? It's going to do something cuz eventually he's going to go for the hard stuff, right? >> And so you you have to wipe it out completely. So there's the the psychological um part of it to me is is even more painful than the physical addiction. And yes, we lose money. And that's usually the most painful part. But at the height of my addiction, I was lying to my wife. She did not know where I was going. In the beginning of our marriage, I wanted her to feel like I'm a big mah. I have free rooms in Atlantic City. And we drove down. I remember I made my wife drive down. We had a I think a two-month old baby. And she's like, "But they won't let you take the baby." And I'm like, "Don't worry. She's too much. You can't gamble." And I took my wife down. And I wanted her to sit next to me cuz I I saw a lot of people coming with their girlfriends or their wives when I was single. And I wanted to finally feel like, you know, I belonged, right? >> And they wouldn't let her come with the baby, you know, down sit next to me. >> And she hated it. It was such a long drive. And it was not even nice rooms. And >> and I was I thought she's crazy. So I had to start lying about my addiction. So now, not only am I losing money and I'm losing time, now I'm losing trust. Now I'm lying to my wife. And I wasn't a very good liar, but I built up a lot of trust for always being honest. So, I had to sharpen my lying skills. So, I started lying about what I had for lunch or who I met or what I was doing because I had to see what what I can get away with. And and my wife picked up on so many red flags. But I think that most wives are so uh trusting and and and don't at any point think that there's my husband is doing this. But when I admitted it to her after all these years, she's like, I knew something was going on, >> right? >> You know, so the red flags are there. And that's one of the things I wanted to address also was, >> yeah, we're going to talk about that. We'll get to the red flag. >> It was just such a it it was ruining every part of my life. And yet there was nothing I would rather do. It was not if I had more money, I would go to the casino. >> Now, I know when talking about the other addictions, I guess it it's it's down the line. Every addiction has the same. The psychologists are saying that the planning, the prep, waiting, you know, knowing on Shabas that matzah shabas you're going to go is already that that you're already getting it from before just the planning it next week Wednesday. >> I'm not working. Let's say if it's Thanksgiving, >> I have a plan way to go. But that rush, just the planning, forget about the actual thing. It just takes over your life. Is that true? >> It definitely the the as a matter of fact and and I'll answer this, but in in in America there's a very famous term, the pursuit of happiness. They turned it into a movie, right? >> That is the problem is that the happiness is in the pursuit. It's not when you get to what you get to. Any addiction, any forget about addiction, any pleasure in this world, when you finally get to it, >> it's as good as it is. And some things attack are very good and pleasurable and nice, but it's never what you expected. It's >> the pursuit. >> And it's that right and and that energy that you get from that and that that drive and and that's why you know I got very into breast of teachings last few years and Rabman says that the most important thing for a person is his rutsen and ruts doesn't just mean I want to do it. Rutzen is the highest form of want. I must have this. Sometimes you want something, sometimes you need something. I must have oxygen. I must gamble. That was it. It was a must. It wasn't like, oh, I need this because that feeling, nothing else can give me that feeling. And and then driving home, the 2 and 1/2 hours that I took from Atlantic City or an hour and a half when I lived in Muny, it was the best and worst thing because I'm driving home and I'm feeling that pain. I am never going to do this again. So, you were angry at angry at losing the money or angry at yourself? >> Angry at myself. Why did I play that hand? I shouldn't have played that hand. Or how did this guy have the nerve to call me when the odds are 99% against him? And it was just dumb luck. And if the dealer didn't do this and you're going through all the pointing the finger because why should I point the finger at me? At first, it starts there, but it's uncomfortable. So, now I got to start pointing the finger at other people. It was the casino. It was the player. It was this. it was the table. Next time I'll play at a different table, a different amount, a different game. Maybe I should play slot machines first or slot machines after. And it was all these because the ride is so long. And I think that was sort of built into why they chose Atlantic City because by the time you get home, even that same night that you just tortured yourself and your mom is feeling pain, there's already that little bit of amnesia kicking in where you already started being ahead to yourself for the next time. You planted the seeds for the next time. And then you wake up that morning or whatever it is. And I know I'm going off topic. Your original question was the planning. But when you wake up that day and you say, you know what, I'm not I'm talking not going to gamble. But you start already planning when it is going to be. And then you just go back to your question. Planning those trips. What lie am I going to have to come up with? Cuz first I have to lie to my wife. Then I have to lie to my work. And I have to make sure that nobody calls me. And all these different tracks I have to cover. >> And the casino smells from smoke back then. you're allowed to smoke in the casino. So, I had to have because one time I came home and I smelled like cigarettes and I don't smoke. >> And I was like, "You smoked?" >> I didn't know what to say. I made up some, you know, lie where I I used to talk a drive home from from B&H and I gave a guy a ride and he wanted to smoke in the car and it was so cold so we kept the windows closed. She didn't buy it, but she didn't know what the real truth was. And so I had an extra shirt, I had cologne, I had deodorant, I had everything prepared. I had a different hoodie that, you know, I like to wear a hoodie when I was gambling because one of the professional poker players, he would cover his head and you would emulate these people. So I had a lot of work going into this. Today there's online gambling, which is I know it's a a pandemic. >> Um, >> scratchoffs, you know, they they bet on sports, elections, you can bet on everything today and it's legal and you have it in your pocket. Yeah. >> Is this market? >> Yeah. So, this makes things worse. >> Much worse. Much harder. When I came in to GA, >> um sport uh sports betting like DraftKings and daily stuff. Um those were illegal in New York at the time. They were legal, then they became illegal, then it was a certain time was legal in New Jersey. Now it's all all the Vegas style betting that used to be illegal in any other state is now fully legal. And you don't have to be in New York or you could be wherever you want. Co really killed GA in so many ways. >> First of all, the the I know it's slightly off topic, but it really answers your question. >> The live meetings is the foundation of the program. CO not only wasn't it live anymore, but at the end of each meeting would say the serenity prayer. >> Yeah. And it was a a certain form of I know it was in a church and it was with a lot of non-firm people. And by the way, most of GA is non-farm Jews, >> right? >> Because we're the only ones who feel I think guilty to come in. Most other people they just they wash it away. But just there was some calmness and and and tremendous like spirituality of having that bond and co ruined that today. Even today now we don't have covid people don't shake hands as they used to but it took so many meetings got destroyed because as much as zoom is nice as a backup people stopped going to life and then eventually they stopped going and many people with 20 25 30 years of abstinence went back to gambling after co and then the other part of it is the casinos you do not have to walk into a casino today to play casino games you could do it all on your phone I remember about 15 years ago I emailed Caesar's Palace that they should do this that they should have a live feed where the dealer is sitting in the casino and 10 people are sitting in their homes on the computer and the dealer deals the hands and each person only sees and I thought this was a beautiful way I don't I can save the three hours of driving >> of course >> and today it's a reality and not only that you know I worked in Williamsburg at one point and I would walk to for lunch the grill on Lee and I would pass by this uh Jewish pharmacy and who's inside scratching scratchoffs Malam people in their 50s 60s7s and they're sitting there scratching during their lunch break. >> Yeah. >> You can walk into Rockland Kosha my you could buy mega millions. >> You can have an app on your phone called Robin Hood where you can depending on your income you could I know it's not specifically gambling but you could risk hundreds of thousands of dollars. There's there's nothing you can't gamble on. You can gamble on the weather, like you said, politics >> and and so between the casino, between the sports, um, and between all these other apps, and there's other things that could become gambling, it's almost impossible for a person today. And that's why one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast was because we have so few people in our program, you know, most real compulsive gamblers do not make it into a GA room. And from the ones that do, they don't make it 90 days. But if you come into the program and you make it to 90 days, your success rate of staying in the program, even if you don't necessarily stay clean, is close to 50 or 60%. But the amount of compulsive gamblers, this is statistics that the government has, it's only about 10% of people who actually even ever step into a room. So, and I think in our community there's just a lack of awareness. I think most of my life I didn't know there was help, right? >> And I thought the help was for non-Jews and I'm not going to be able to go and talk to people that I'm not comfortable with, you know, and we actually opened up a room, a Yiddish speaking room for Haish people. And at the height of our room, we had 10 people coming every week. >> Wow. Are you talking about youngsters? them today sit on the phone and they whatever they're working, whatever money they make, >> you could be in Kylo be sitting and learning and in between going on Robin Hood or or DraftKings, whatever the person is into, and you could be losing hundreds and thousands of dollars. >> And and the thing is, I heard you saying on an interview that um the severity of this uh gambling issue is that it's uh not recognizable. You see when you're on drugs you can a person stops eating sometimes or loses his teeth >> or when he's an alcoholic the guy he's sleeping he's this that this one >> you can have a guy with a necker you can have a guy uh you will never guess >> that this guy is struggling with this >> look at look at Gdalia Fster yeah >> Gdalia Fster today is not gambling and he's very wealthy >> right when he was gambling he was losing a lot of money but he still had money so he was a that if you didn't know he was gambling, you would never think of it cuz look how wealthy he was, driving nice cars, dressing nice and he was a very confident person >> and yet >> millions millions of dollars. He said >> um um Rabbi Rabbi Wallerstein always spoke about his compulsive gambling >> and and maybe for him 12 steps he figured out another way which is beautiful >> but it it it's something you can really mask really well especially in the communities where the wives don't really have access to bank accounts. They don't really know what their husband >> because usually the husbands run the finances. They want the finances and also you know if you have a kosher home and you don't have internet which is a very nice thing for the people who are doing that >> but yeah your husband could be doing things and you have no idea and you trust and you don't even think of maybe asking because he's not going to tell you >> right >> but there's no way of knowing and so you can mask it right a person who's overeating it's very recognizable right >> that he's overeating even if a person is maybe having an affair he's never around he's never home and yes I had that when I was gambling I was never home and I had a lot of those characteristics. But today, because you can do it on your phone, right? >> And you can do it in in a lotteryies. You can just buy a bunch of money in lotteryies. >> It's way easier. >> You could really mask it very well. And if your wife has no access to your finances, >> she'll never know. >> And so you can live in this double and and I was always so nervous with the mail. I first of all at some point when my wife didn't know I was gambling anymore um I changed all of her online passwords, all of her credit cards, everything was on my name, my email. >> No access to the >> Yeah. And because nowadays men could be women and women could be men. I would call up, nobody would uh would say anything. Nobody would ask them because it could be a guy, who cares, you know? >> And so, but I was always nervous and I checked the mailbox. That pressure of making sure I got to the mailbox for the bills. just in not just for the bills, but just in case the casino sends something or just in case the my ATM withdrawals, whatever it was, I made sure it was all online in my name, but you never know. And Taka, sometimes the casino would send you different things. Um, and so I just remember living this lie and this double life of dishonesty. And and when a person thinks he's just being dishonest in one place, that's not how it happens. dishonesty it takes over a person and and then I started telling some of my family and friends the truth when I was gambling and even then at them I didn't want to tell how much I really lost >> right >> but then I started telling like I was telling one of my brothers make sure you don't tell my wife >> goes I don't talk to your wife why would I tell your wife this >> I don't know I'm just I can't take that chance and then I realize you know what I'm doing wrong >> I have to now start lying to everybody cuz I'm going to forget which story I told him and which story I told her >> that's what So we say shear right shear has no legs because all of the isas are either slanty or on one foot >> but MS they all have legs they all have bottom because you don't have to remember the truth it's just the truth >> with when it comes to lying and the more you lie the more people you lie to so I started lying to everybody so at least I got the same story to everybody and I wouldn't slip my mistake to somebody and and I really prided myself on being an honest person and it hurt me and so despite the hurt that I was feeling despite the financial loss and despite all the time that I was losing going going to the casino or however I was gambling I still couldn't stop it it the pain of even my children right knowing that I'm taking money that really belongs to them what's the whole purpose that I'm working for is to have money for my kids how can I gamble it away so a person I can love my and and I love my children my whole existence in life is my whole motivation is for my kids. I want to give them the most perfect life. So my love for my children, I'm also very spiritual today. I'm very connected to my guide. Things that I struggled with for many years. Hashem, you can't gamble. You're not you're not you could if you gamble, right? Not to mention the places you're gambling is a Jew would never want to find himself there from religious Jew. You can never find yourself in these places, right? Somehow all of these things. So Hashem is not important enough. My children are not important. My wife is not important enough. my honesty, myself, my dignity. What if I lose my reputation? What if I if I keep telling my boss I'm not coming into work and I'm lying to him? I could lose my job. Somehow none of that mattered because as long as I place that next bet, all those feelings go away. >> And that and that is the addiction nightmare. >> And it's a nightmare. And it was such a pressure to live the first step of coming into recovery is that you admit that your life was unmanageable. >> Right? I thought I was managing it all right. >> It was unmanageable for a regular person. But compulsive gamblers, everyone that I ever met, no matter how old or younger person is and what community they came from, they're very creative people. >> You didn't even know you have this in you. It brought out the worst in you. >> Yeah. And and I was so irresponsible when I was younger. I didn't have the knowledge of finances and you know what is interest affects. And I had this dream that I'm going to be so rich one day anyway. So I'll have interest one day. Hey, I'll pay it off. Like it didn't I didn't have that connection that that responsibility to the dollar. But my point is that no matter how much I love my wife, my children, my religion, all these things, I still couldn't stop. And I would dab and I would cry to Hashem, please Hashem, help me. Not necessarily help me stop, but help me win already so that I could stop >> because ultimately he's the one who's controlling it all. So why do I keep losing? And and then I started feeling Hashem doesn't love me, you know, and and I I had this, you know, understanding of Yiddish in a very different way. >> And it was only within recovery that I was able to remove myself from that stinking thinking is a very common term used in addiction. >> And the more and and why are meetings so successful? Because you get to come to a place with people that you trust that did the same thing as you. Ironically enough, compulsive gamblers only trust other compulsive gamblers because we know what we were what we were like. And other people who don't have these addiction don't understand it. What do you mean you lost your I remember one time my wife I gave her I think $100 to go play in the slot machines. She put in 120 and after a minute was gone. She got up and she left. >> Who does that? >> There are certain people who cannot separate from their money. It's like their money is everything. My wife never paid a penny in interest when she was single. And to me, interest was like whatever, >> you know, and and and >> and at the same time, I didn't realize the small amounts of money I was gambling, right? I told you $3 $400 was enough for me. >> Well, not gambling that $3 $400 every, let's say, two, three weeks, whatever the amount was. >> I didn't realize how much that adds up to after 6 months, nine months, a year. >> Not gambling. I have this app that I use to keep my sobriety date and it actually you can put in the amount of money you were gambling at the height of your addiction >> and it will tell you based on your sobriety how much money you saved and when it hits six figures I'm like what in my head $300 is never going to equal 300,000 >> correct >> but it has a way of adding up >> let me ask you a question what was your if you can remember your worst moment like you didn't come home for those something you know it You see already the sun is coming out. You know those crazy moments. >> Yeah, there were a few of them. Um the worst moment for me fortunately was the last time I ever gambled. >> Wow. >> And it was so bad and so painful that and this is where you I can now go back and see Hashem's hand in everything. So it was President's Day 2017. I was working for a company that was never ever closed on President's Day if they were around for 30 years. Mhm. >> And they've been around since then. So, this is going back whatever it is almost nine years. They've never been closed either since then. For whatever reason, at the last second, the manager text everyone in the office, "We're closed today." At that point, I was gambling like crazy and my wife didn't know. And I told my wife, you know, it's President's Day. They're giving us off. She had work. My kids at school and as far as my wife know, I didn't gamble in a year. So, I'm like, "Maybe I go to the casino today." She's like, "Oh, but you don't have money cuz we just moved into a new place and we had to pay rent and we saved up all our money to pay." It was a big amount. And I'm like, "No, I have like a few hund, but I have a few hundred in my other account." She goes, "Okay, listen. As long as you're home, I want to have supper as a family." At 5:00, not a minute later. You're the best. Thank you. Sure. Right. And I felt so good. I was finally honest with her. Go. >> Right. >> And I'm driving down. At this point, I was gambling in in Pennsylvania, 90 minutes away. And about 10 minutes into my drive, I'm like, "She's actually right. What am I gambling with? I have exactly the amount of money to pay my rent, which is due in a few days. >> And it was in a in a non-Jewish complex. So, it wasn't like you have a Jewish landlord, you can maybe extend it, pay half. >> It had to come out of my account. So, I really couldn't gamble. I should have turned around and went home, but I couldn't. My wife gave me permission. I'm finally being honest. I ded with minion. I had the lot of Cavana. I'm off. And I lost so much money billing up. This is the perfect thing. And so I drove down there and I took out half of the money I had in my bank account because the ATM fee is like $10 at a casino. And I didn't want to have to take out multiple times because I had a tendency of losing in the beginning and then making it back and maybe breaking even. I took out half my money. And typically I never really gambled with that much. And this was the first time that I had this amount of money in one day. And normally I could make it last four, five, six hours and have a good time. Hashem made it happen really fast. Within two hours, I was done. All the money. >> And now I was petrified because I can't replace that in by the time when my rent is due. I also can't come up with a reason to my wife that I don't have the money in case I have to borrow it from a friend or family. And so I was mamish devastated. Not not only that, but the rest of my money sitting in my account. And I'm da not using dollars because >> in the program we we are preached, you know, not to use dollar amounts. Number one, it could trigger people. But number two, it's irrelevant. I had access to 10,000. He had access to a million. Doesn't matter. >> The amounts don't matter. The amount the the amount the amount that mattered was it was half my money for my rent. >> But the most painful part was the fact that it was a holiday and I couldn't get the other half out because I reached my daily limit for the ATM withdrawal. And I knew that if I get out the other half, I'll be successful. And I'm walking around the casino. Maybe somebody dropped chips on the floor. And the old people, you nowadays, you put in the card. You don't have to use cash, right? You can put in the card and it has your balance. And I checked every slot machine. Maybe some old lady left her thing in there. And I maybe in the bathroom people, they don't realize they lose an hour and a half. I'm going around every square under the casino looking for money, trying to I have hours here that I could still be here. My wife is letting me be here. I need to make this money back. My life literally depends on it. And I started calling friends. Maybe they could sell me money. Long story short, I found this um a a check cashing against your checking account. There used to be um that you can do a credit card transaction and take out money against your credit card and they charge you a crazy amount, but I never saw one where you can do against your checking. It was perfect. I was able they charged me like 40%. Didn't care. I took out whatever was left and I said, "Hashem, I started saying every cap to him that I knew by heart." I'm like, "My life depends. I need to win. I just want to break even this time more than ever. Two hours later, it was all gone. And at this point, I literally felt my heart like coming out of my body. And I felt like my life is over. My wife is now going to know everything. And what am I going to do? We're going to get kicked out of this new complex we just moved into. My marriage might end because my wife is going to find out all these months and years I've been lying to her. My life literally flashed in front of me. I thought this was the worst day. Hashem must hate me. What a virus I must have done. And I went through 354 numbers that I had on my phone. I remember that number cuz it was painful. >> And either people didn't pick up cuz it was a holiday or the people who picked up said they can't. And I had friends that had the money or family members and nobody wanted to help me. And I felt so alone. I felt like Hashem is basically telling me I I shouldn't be living. And so finally I decided I'm gonna leave the casino. There's nothing else for me to do here. I I They give you some comps. They give you 10 $15. I bought myself a drink, whatever it was. And I'm driving home and I'm like, what do I do now? Because as painful as everything was, I came to the realization I could probably never gamble again. And so I came up with this idea. I'm going to go 75 on the highway. I'm going to purposely crash into the guardrail. Hopefully I don't injure myself too badly or die altogether. I'm going to take my wallet, throw it out of the car, and I'm going to tell my wife I got into an accident. The guy mugged me and he took my my card and and it wasn't me. I There's a casino has video cameras probably even in the bathroom. There's not especially by the ATM machine and the time stamps wouldn't match up and I'm in the opposite way of the highway. None of that mattered. Somehow this was a good thing and that was what I was going to do. And I found an area in the highway that was straight and I'm like, "Okay, I'm ready to do this." And Hashem hates me anyway. Look, nobody picked up on me. Nobody wants to help me. Everything is against me. And all of a sudden, a friend of mine called me back that I left a message and he said, "What do you need the money for?" And I made up some story. And um and he said, "I I'm going to help you." And I told him, "By the way, I I don't know when I could probably pay you back like $50 a week. Not a problem." In that moment, it was like I I got this idea and typically bailouts are not good for compulsive gamblers. But here's where I saw the Hashem for the first time. And I said, "Hashem, if this is from you, I'm going to stop and I'm going to take it." And I took me a couple of days. It was on Monday, but by Thursday, I told my wife. She was furious. Not just about the money, but about all the lies. She wanted me out of the house. She called my Russa and he said, "Listen, let him sleep on the couch. Don't make him food. Do whatever you want, but don't throw him out of the house. Let's see if we can figure this out. And Sunday we went to our therapist and he said, "Listen, he definitely cuz I I was telling him things so that he would tell my wife I don't have a gambling problem, but I was lying to him." >> And this time I was able to be honest and it was painful. And he said, "You should go see an addiction specialist." And I can tell you all the froons and my are fully booked cuz too many people have addictions here. So, the first thing he's going to tell you to do is go to Gamblers Anonymous. So, I'm telling you, go to Gamblers Anonymous. And I remember a friend of mine on Facebook that I used to gamble with posted 90 days without a bet. I called him up and he's like, uh, I'm not really doing well these days, but here, call this and this guy. Who am I going to call? Started texting the guy. Long story short, the guy lived in Burough Park and I just it's in the back of a church. Now, I'm feeling I'm not going to go to a church. This doesn't make sense. And he tells me, so I called him and I started talking to him, a stranger. I never met this guy. And he says, 'You know what? I'm going to drive up to my I'm going to take you to your first meeting. I'm like, what? Why would you do that? Because I hear in your voice that you really want to change. The fact that you called me cuz it's easy to text, isn't it? >> The fact that it mattered so much to you that you called a total stranger, it's worth it for me. I can use the meeting anyway. >> He felt you. He felt that such >> that is a sadic mamish, this guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. This guy has had his own story. Yeah. But he he really and he literally held me by the hand, walked me in. It's in the back of a church. It's okay. And then I saw three other yamakas in my first meeting. There were 30 35 people there. There were me and two other people were brand new. And that was that was life-changing, you know, and and seeing a few other Yamakas in there gave me that comfort of okay, this is normal, you know. I felt it was so not normal because I always gamble by myself. >> You know, if you're if you're gambling with friends, then then you all know each other that you have a problem. I have a problem. >> So, you found out that uh you're running away from something because after behind all this addictions, call it whatever you want to call it, there is a void that we're running away from >> and we're trying to fill that void. And this is what you found out in those rooms. >> Yeah. Yeah. So the the 12 steps of recovery are an amazing thing, but more amazing than the steps itself is is the fellowship, the brotherhood. And there's also women who who come there. But you get the support that you have that you >> you have people every age bracket. You have people from literally every profession. You have religious, atheists, everybody comes and men, women, different races, whatever, different uh incomes, different amounts that we lost, different amounts that we have and nobody's charging you a dollar and people will pick up the phone 2 3 4 in the morning. spor not only a sponsor but anybody but your sponsor will sit down with you >> and we have unlike every other 12step program there's something called a pressure relief group meeting >> because it's the only addiction that finances are so heavily involved >> yes you could lose money in drugs and you could lose money with alcohol or sex or food but to the extent where you can lose gambling is different so they have this you you meet with your sponsor your sponsor's wife you and your wife and sometimes even another older person in in in the in the program and they go through every expense you have, every debt you have, and you have to be brutally honest and your wife is going to find out more things. And here's the thing that anybody who's going through addiction that that comes clean, the worst pain for a spouse or for family members in general is ripping off the band-aid slowly because the first punch is so gut-wrenching and so painful. Do all the punches in one shot. it's going to be deadly and she might not want to talk to you. And some marriages don't survive. My wife stuck by me. And she was a huge part of my success. >> A gift from Hashem. >> It was all Hashem. But >> if I and and this is what they told me, make a list and ended up being six or seven pages long. Every lie, everything. And even if it has nothing to do with gambling, anything inappropriate, anything, just write it all down because you want to hurt your wife only once. You don't want to keep find another lie, another secret. And >> yeah, unfortunately, there have been some moments in our marriage that not necessarily strictly related to gambling, but from a financial side where, oh, I forgot about this. I forgot about and each time it's another it's not only a new punch, it's all the other punches from the past come back again. >> You're waking up the old >> and it's almost it's almost like abuse, you know, and so you you really want to limit it to just one time. So >> this was you over there. These are the steps that you because >> people learn from previous people's errors. >> Well, the help that that's out there today is is is refreshing. It's it's also a gift >> and and there are Zoom meetings. If you're traveling and you can't make it to live, live is always best, but there's Zoom meetings, there's literature, there's there's addiction specialists as far as, you know, going through therapy, there's rehab programs for for gambling. There's so many resources. There are so many um options out there. And I think that the majority, especially in the from community, in the really really haish community, I really believe people don't know this exists. And if they think it exists, they think it's not for them. I don't speak English. I'm not going to know. Like I said, we have a Yiddish speaking meeting. The bottom line is we love each other. We care about each other. And unlike the the non- Yiddish speaking meetings, we can talk about our Yiddish guide problems >> that are a big part of this whole chant, you know, >> because most of the people who gamble have many things they're running away from. And much of it is about religion in some way. >> And that that to me, my void was >> I had a false understanding of of Hashem and Yiddish. And I always pictured Hashem as this big tall person with like a white beard and two lightning bolts in his hand setting up the deck for me to fail and he can't wait to throw the lightning bolt in my face. >> That's how I pictured Hashem. And I'm not blaming any specific people or or the yeshivas or whatever it was, >> whatever. But coming into the 12step program, ironically enough, as a from person and it helped you peel away all those layers and almost like uninstall the God of my understanding. Much of the literature says God of your understanding, >> right? >> And I had to do that. I had to mamish work on myself. Most of the steps from that aspect, those were the hardest steps. And then all of a sudden, you you see this comes from the Tyra. This comes from the every step. This entire 12step program is a is a is is in the swam. It's it's it's it's life. It's >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's amazing how this I want to talk about enabling. >> Yes. >> What does that mean in uh who could be an enabler? Our wives sometimes enablers our friends en what? Explain enabling when it comes to these difficult situations. I definitely want to get to that, but I also want to preface it by saying that calling somebody an enabler >> is not putting any blame on them because many wives and many spouses or parents or business partners, whoever the person you lied to and took money from, >> um, now I'm the problem. No, >> no, they didn't cause the addiction and they can't really in a way help your addiction. Of course, a spouse can be loving and supporting versus not loving and supporting and that will impact the person's recovery, but it's my recovery. It's my addiction and it's my choices. So, it an enabler does not mean shifting any sort of blame. But for whatever the reason is, most addicts end up marrying somebody that is enabling them in some way, usually subconsciously not realizing it's happening. M but typically most spouses and I think it's not just a manw woman thing I think it's just spouse in general we want to trust each other I mean you wouldn't have married somebody if you didn't really trust them >> or at least want to trust them or believe in trusting them >> so I think that as much as that is definitely a very important quality in a marriage >> don't just assume that your spouse is being honest and try to push certain boundaries to just confirm that things are okay if my wife saw the finances, how would I explain ATM withdrawals at a casino? you know, if my wife saw all the credit card transactions, she would know that I wasn't at work in the days that I said I was um in when it comes to children, if it's a child, I took my daughter or she was like probably seven years old to a laundromat once and while we're waiting for our laundry, they had this machine where you put in a dollar and there's a bunch of quarters and it like slides and there's like prizes and the more money you put in, it pushes the prize. Eventually, you might win. >> And they put a $100 bill there. And my daughter asked me, and of course I was already in GA at this time. My daughter asked me if she can play this game. Now I can't play that game because that's a form of gambling for me. And I gave her a dollar and she put it in and she got so close. It was like at the edge. And she's like, "Can I have another one? I have another one." And I saw that glimmer in her eye that reminded me of me. And so I stopped it and but it's so close. And I had to explain it to her. But there are signs that you could see in your children. You know, if a child is not home when he's supposed to be home, >> he's up to something. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean it's gambling, but it it's there's so many addictions out there. There are so many escapes. And for whatever reason, and very good parents might have children that need to escape from something, and it doesn't mean that you're a bad parent. >> You know, some of my friends that went off at some point were children of rabbis or respected people. >> You can't explain these things. And sometimes it is bad parenting, but it's not >> the case. You could be the best parent in the world and a neighbor or a friend or someone in yeshiva could undo all that. >> So when a when a person whether it's a spouse or a child or a business partner or a sibling if you see so many inconsistencies in their stories of where they are and how they're doing and there's so many surprises that means that there's something behind there and there's definitely something they're running away from. So number one, I think the most enabling thing is trusting the husband or the wife, whoever has control of the money. If it's a marriage, it should be joint. People should have joint accounts. >> People should have um weekly or monthly budgeting, whatever it is. And this is not even people who are gambling. I've realized, you know, budgeting and being on top of your finances is a major part of communication. And that's actually what builds trust is that I'm now confident that there's no surprises coming, >> right? But just allowing one person to control everything is so risky. >> Is that what keeps you in check now? >> So yeah, when I first came in, they told me first of all, I switched everything over to my name. So number one was I gave her all my passwords. >> I gave her all my credit cards, my ATM card. I had no access to money and she had to give me cash for daily expenditures. So, every week she would give me $40 and I had to bring back receipts for what I spent the money on. And let me tell you something. I don't care who you are, how much money you have or don't have, how whatever age you are, that is a very negative feeling, especially for a man. >> Humiliating. >> It it could feel humiliating. And I did feel like that at the moment, but I understood the the deepness behind it, >> right? >> And I came to appreciate it after a while. It was very humbling, that's for sure. >> What? I'm this little kid. I have to bring receipts. Well, yeah, I can't trust you. You know, even the $40 was like, "What if you I can go do a a scratch off. I can go buy mega millions for $40 and boom, that's gone. Now we need more gas money." >> But you you were on the pursuit of building back trust. >> Yeah. Hashem designed it in a way that it was so painful for me. I remember holding my son who was two and a half at the time on that Sunday before I even went to my meeting and I started crying and he's two and a half has no idea why his father's crying and I never cry in front of my kids. >> Um and I just remember holding him and and I don't know if I said it out loud or just thinking it. I'm like I owe you so much and mention I'm going to have more kids. I can't do this and I can't stop for myself because I didn't have the ability to recognize that I'm actually hurting myself. >> I only thought I'm hurting my wife and my kids. But you know what? That was enough for me to stop. And I took it upon myself that I'm going to do everything within my power to to stop this. And let me tell you something, even with all that, the temptations that are out there and the addiction of all the years already being ingrained, if you don't set yourself up with barriers, as many as possible, all these different things they told me to do, you have no chance. And if you slip once or twice, typically you become habitual relapser. It just keeps happening. and the people who don't relapse at all and I had this of not having that problem >> and I really believe that Hashem gives you what you could handle. I don't think I would have handled the relapse very well. I would have went right back out there. >> What is what is a trigger for a relapse? Let's say in your case, you're doing so well. You got it down. You understand this concept. You understand the addiction. You understand why you're attracted to this what it's doing. But we what is the trigger that you stay away from? So, the the first thing they tell you is to let everyone you know that you used to gamble with or that potentially thinks you would gamble with them that you don't gamble anymore. Let them know >> and let them know that you have an addiction, that you're in GA, and maybe some of them will want to come join you. But you remove yourself from groups. You remove yourself from people who will bring up gambling. Because if you're connected to somebody who's still gambling and even though that person may not have an addiction to it, >> you're going to hear stories. It's going to entice you. What do you need that temptation for? >> You know, when it comes to Shmeirim, >> if you don't look at inappropriate imagery to begin with, you're not going to have to worry what else is going to come later. Now, that first step is very hard to do, >> but everyone agrees with that. Don't have the first drink. If you're an alcoholic, the first drink is not going to hurt you. But but what you're saying is something very important, very profound. Um is that true with alcoholics as well? Because somehow this is taboo. All these like still not where it's supposed to be. It should be normal conversation. Hello, I'm in meetings. I'm in recovery. This should be normal talk. >> Yeah. >> But it's not there yet. It's slowly people are coming out >> there yet. Um I think that alcohol I I don't know for myself but from some of my friends I think it's easier for people to say they have an alcohol problem >> because if you go to a sim you go to a kdish or this is by us um alcohol is normal. I mean this is >> a very big problem because I actually don't like alcohol. So when I'm by a simho or by a kdish and people offer me a shot I tell them I don't drink. And you have to realize >> almost nobody's trying to be mean or >> and I'm not an alcoholic. But you know how many people just a shot everyone's doing it's how do you go to and not make you don't know who you're talking to and how triggering that can be. >> But what you're saying is that that you said something very interesting that the alcoholic or the guy who's in recovery who really wants to better his life should say something. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Don't keep it quiet. And he's like, I don't want >> say I'm in recovery. So that guy's going to back off and say, you know what, nobody wants to do that. You know, nobody wants. So it's very important what you said that anybody who struggles >> should say, you know what, share it with the people. >> Exactly. >> There's nothing wrong with it. >> But most people think there's two things. There's shame. >> Yeah. >> And then there's it's going to ruin my life. You know, >> your image, your life, whatever. >> Like part of coming on this podcast. Um, do I want to take that responsibility of putting my name out there or putting my face and and my story out there? Because what if down the line a should have possibility comes up and said, "Oh, he's a gambler. I'm not >> doesn't matter how long I'm clean, right? Somebody could have that." >> But that comes from ignorance because what you did, I can't even I can't even I don't have enough words to tell you what you're doing. You're changing the world in in such a positive way. You're bringing awareness to something. you you call him. Imagine a person who's suffering like you was hearing this. He's driving to the casino as we speak. >> And here's a guy who says, "Listen, you're in Gehenn >> and I'm going to try to get you out of Gehennam. I'm I'm showing you there is a door. There are people who are sitting over there who want to help you, who love you. >> You who are you doing this? Where are you running from? Who are you running away from?" And this is not a shiddok. I would, you know, you could make a better shik with this than without this. >> Like I I was telling other people that were questioning if I should do this or not. >> If a person is going to be that shallow, I'm probably not interested in doing this anyway. But my point is there are people who feel whether it's whatever addiction it might be, there's there's that level of shame like I suffer from this and there's that level of I don't want people to know. >> And let me tell you, every time I told whoever it was, I never ever regretted it afterwards. whoever I came clean to, friends, family, important people. Actually, I sat down with my boss the other yesterday and I let him know about this podcast because I'm sure he'll see it. >> Someone will send it to him, >> right? >> And I don't want him being blindsided. So, and I sat down with him and I was a little bit nervous, you know, how he might take it. >> And he he thought it was so courageous and he said, "I have a close friend of mine who has this addiction. I know all about it >> and I think it's amazing what you're doing." And we had a very nice conversation afterwards. No one, no matter what addiction it is, and and maybe some people think it's different with certain addictions, but most people, they want to help you. >> Yeah. >> You know, and and it's not even necessarily just from people, like people generally, society, people want to help. People want to >> be part of your life. People are good, good people. >> And we just don't allow it. We tell ourselves we're it's like the the opposite of my you know we tell ourselves that we can't do it because it's going to affect if if if you allow that then you can't get recovery >> and if you try you'll just you'll fail and so yeah there are certain things that are more triggering than others. So I was in a group alumni group. Um we met once a year for one of the Shivas I went to >> maybe two three times a year the chat would talk about gambling and after a couple after the first year I actually took a picture of my coin. And every year you celebrate a year, you get a coin. >> And I sent it into the group and I said, "Hey guys, you know, if you can all be respectful, I want to be part of this group, but I have this issue and I'm in recovery." And once or twice a year, there would still be a this that and I remove myself from the group. I I am not taking any chances. And I can tell you the more sobriety a person has, the further they are removed from gambling, the harder it actually gets in in the sense that a you have more to lose because I've done a lot of recovery barashm financially and in many other places in my life that if I went back today I would lose 10 times the amount not just financially I would lose everything. Literally I would lose everything if I went back. So a I have more to lose. It's almost like one of one of the people in the in our Giddish group said this example. It's every day of sobriety you you put another table and you stand on top of the table. The more you have you're so high you're petrified. The fool >> the fool is going to be >> the fool is going to hurt a lot more. >> And so but at the same time complacency people go let's say in in every 12step there's different rules how many meetings you should make whatever it is >> in in gams anonymous most people that are five plus years they go to one meeting a week. That's the bare minimum. That's like it's almost half a gamble not going to at least that one meeting. But if you can go to two meetings a week and and it and it works for your family, then that's just more recovery. That's more opportunity for you to help yourself. >> But complacency is is the biggest trigger of all. There have been times where I was driving and now the the megaillions reach over a billion already. I think it was at two billion recently. And you see this wherever highway you go, you see it. And there was that thought process of what's the big deal? I'm eight and a half years clean. I barashm worked on my finances. I own a home. I have stability. My wife trusts me. Even if I gamble, I don't have to even tell anybody. It's not really even a gamble. It's just number one. It's it's a whole question in amuna. Like if Hashem wants you to have this money, he doesn't need you to play the lottery. I it's my hashtadas. Trust me. Do your by going to your job. Do your by giving suka. Those are theadases you want to do. But the thought still comes in no matter how much time I know somebody who has 20 years clean. >> Once in a while an urge comes in. The question is what do we do with that urge? >> It's it's like every thought we have is a popup. This is how I like to look at it. And I heard this from Jonathan Rietti. >> He said every thought you have is a popup. It's your choice if you want to swipe left or oo this looks good. >> Let me dive into it. >> And the that you give that thought is actually in your control. We all think, especially in the world of addiction, what do you mean? I have no choice. >> No, I didn't have a choice for that popup. Guy cuts you off. Your first thought is, I want to murder the person. >> Yeah. >> But then logic sets in. It's not worth going to jail for, right? And you you move on. You occupy yourself with other things or you realize how that thought was illogical >> by by going to these meetings because you talk to an addict and he spent hours and hours in the casino or whatever. All of a sudden, he's going to have too much time on his hands. He's like, "What am I going to do with so much time?" >> So that's Yeah. >> But the meetings keep you pretty busy. the meetings >> we say one once a week or twice a week that that that puts you on most meetings are an hour and a half to two hours of course >> um in in Gamblers Anonymous in in other programs it might be different but >> um just having these meetings but then what happens you go to a meeting you speak >> commitment >> yeah and you you speak it's called giving therapy >> right >> because it's very therapeutic for yourself and for the people listening >> the best person for someone who's trying to recover is someone who just came in or somebody who unfortunately relapsed >> not for that person it's Not the best, but for the person who's trying to continue his recovery, having a newcomer or someone who just relapsed, it brings you back to I remember that pain. Everyone remembers their first meeting. Everyone remembers their last story of like I said with mine, people remember that. But one of the biggest gifts Hashem gave us is forgetting things. If we would remember every aa we ever did and we wouldn't have the ability to forget, we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves. It would be too much guilt. So, it's the greatest gift that Hashem could give us is the ability to forget, but you some things you don't want to forget. And I like this analogy. Recovery is like driving a car. Your main focus has to be in the front window looking out cuz there's stuff around you. But if you neglect your side mirrors, you can get into an accident. And what does it say on the side mirror? Objects may appear closer than they are >> like that. You can be back to where you were. >> Your rearview mirror, you have to look there sometimes, but could you imagine a person driving looking only there? You get into an accident, a glimpse. >> That's what most of us do, addiction or not. We live in our past. And if you're living in your past and you're not living in the present, you're you're bringing back all that pain. And so the the the the the analogy is beautiful because I have to focus only mainly on the road but every now and then I have to check the rearview mirror and every now and then I have to check this mirror but then what there's also blind spot. So when you turn you sometimes I have to turn your head and remember ah it's right behind me the we say we say right >> there always >> he comes to you before you do the ara to try to get you to do the aa most of the time we see that that >> then what does mean it mean he comes to us after after we did the yeah because you know what happens after you do the you start beating yourself up gets I did this a so I'm not going to dive now I didn't have man so I'm not shak That's the he gets you after that. As a matter of fact, he probably wasn't even there when you did the first of you just did that because you had a weak moment. That's when he comes right afterwards and he grabs you. And that's what we have as addicts. We have to remember that. We have this argument all the time internally. In almost every 12step meeting, a person will announce their name, their last initial because of the anonymity and how long they're clean for, their clean date. And some people say, and also most people will add, "I'm an addict or I'm a gambler." And some people argue, why should I say that? Because I'm giving credence to it. So then if I think I'm a gambler, then I'll gamble, >> right? >> And if I talk about my sobriety date, then it's gonna have an The reason why I think it's helpful is because I need to remember number one, who I am. The number one, the first thing out of my mouth is my name is Silly. But I have to remember my first name. This is who I am. Yes, I have a compulsive addiction to to gambling. Um, yes, I'd made mistakes in the past. and I'm not gambling today. But if I don't take recovery seriously and I don't go to meetings and I don't continue to do the positive things, I'm going to be gambling again. And my sobriety date I have to hold on to with my life. Somebody in the room, ironically enough, is claims to be an atheist said there's two most important days in a person's life. The day you're born and the day you figure out why. And to me, I go with that second one because that date is the day that I was really born >> because most psychologists say that a person who has an addiction, whatever age that addiction started, they they stay stuck at that age and they don't develop maturely until they stop the addiction. So, I came into recovery at like 32. >> That's when you were born. >> I started when I was like 17 or whatever it was. >> So, I have a lot of time to make up. I'm a young guy still. But the point is is that it it's just it gives you that understanding of this stunts my growth. I can't grow as a person. I can't be a good husband and I convinced myself that I was a good husband and I was a good father and the gambling was just it was my sport. But honestly, you can see that it's >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's destroying your life. >> Let me ask you a question. That thrill you had that rush, did you replace it with something else? >> Yes and no. I haven't experienced anything that gave me the feeling I had when I was gambling. >> And that's the challenge in a way because a lot of people say go to the gym, you know, start a business. Everybody has different things that speaks to them. And I have hobbies. I was very into sports. >> You know, I've tuned out a little bit more as I got older and have a family and and more spirituality. >> But you have to have something that replaces not the rush. You cannot that >> if I would have found something healthy to replace that I wouldn't have been an addict. >> Yeah. >> I would have replaced it. U most people replace it with another addiction. >> Right. >> Um and and and I actually don't believe that a person is a gambler or or an overeater. A person has tendencies to addiction depending on certain makeup of what they went through and certain things. Like I don't like alcohol, but if I liked it, I would be an alcoholic. No question about it. If I wasn't too scared to try drugs, I probably would at least be addicted to weed, especially now that nowadays the joke is you used to be arrested if you bought a bag of weed because you bought the weed. Nowadays, you can get arrested for buying the plastic, not the weed. But these things didn't speak to me. But certain things speak to me and if I'm not careful and I don't put into certain things, then I'm going to be susceptible to to that addiction. So I don't believe a person is a gambler only. If I would try other things and I would like it, maybe I would do those things too. >> How did you handle stress today? >> So to me, the biggest help with that is actually >> I was going to ask you because you mentioned >> on my way here I was so nervous because I'm not doing this for fame. >> I'm not a famous person. >> I'm not doing this obviously there's no money involved or anything like that. If anything, I'm taking some risks, right? I'm doing this because I know how I felt and I did not think that there were people out there in my own community that will be able to help me or understand me or that are even suffering through this. And so I just felt like Hashem I want to say the right things but inside I was nervous. I've never been on a podcast, right? This is nervous to me, >> right? >> And I said, "Hashem," and I was actually listening to a shared on the way here >> and the person was saying, the person was saying >> that when you get nervous about something, it's because you're putting the efforts into your thinking that your >> is going to what's affect people. And as soon as I heard that, I'm like, I got so much more come because I'm not doing it for that. >> I'm doing this to try to be a voice to try to help people. Whether you're a gambler listening or a spouse or a loved one that has someone or just a community member and you don't realize mutabas in the winter when you announce in shul who wants to play poker you don't it actually triggers me to this day sometimes I hear some friends talking about it and I want to be far removed from that because I know how much I love playing poker right >> I don't even want to take the chance of of hearing other people talking about it so I run away from these things >> but I just told Hashem please let me say the right things that it should help because this is all for you. It's not for me. And so Ra's teachings are so helpful. His voice is I know you talk about it on all your podcast. >> I listen to almost all of them already >> because because I'll tell you what it is. Well, you describe the 12step program and all the stuff and you describe the way an addict feels and and and like you're it's out of control. It's not you. It's it's it's not about blaming. But how important is it to incorporate the in your life? This is what does it gives you uh it gives you an identity. It gives you shows you you belong someplace. You belong to to the and and you said it before that if you have a muna if you really have deep amuna I'm talking about you don't look at your neighbors and you don't look at other people and you're not busy with your image and stuff like that. For a gambler it helps so much. I mean maybe some gambles are not there yet but I don't need the money is coming anyway >> or not or what yeah whatever the case is but if you're connected how does that help >> right >> it helps to recovery >> it helps so much so the first couple of years I didn't have that gift um I was still finding myself in >> um it it was very stressful actually until I got this new understanding which happened about three three and a half years ago. So the first five years of my recovery, I did not have this understanding. And it was actually very painful because I have this guilt of at the end of the day, now I'm realizing how much money those $3 $400 added up to a lot over that many years, >> of course. >> And and trust me, those numbers got bigger the last year of my gambling. And I feel guilty like, Hashem, why is it my wife's fault or my children's fault that I had this problem, >> right? I want to get that money back. But at the end of the day, >> and and I always thank Hashev this for this now. I used to cry why I don't have access to more money because if I if I only had more money, I would be able to gamble more and win more. That was the problem. And and it's just such a realization of yes, I have to have a job and and I have to do myas, but if and and this is even if you don't believe inkite >> because there are so many people in 12 steps that don't believe or believe in different religions, right? >> Yeah. >> But the fact that we can all recognize there's a higher power, whoever that is for you, whatever that is for you, there's a higher power that put us all here. And I actually hear a lot of people saying, "I'm a grateful recovering addict in meetings." And in the beginning, I was like, "This person is crazy. I want this addiction." Like, I want, you know, the plague. I don't want it. I wish I never had it. >> Yeah. >> I can say now that especially when it comes to Yiddish, had I not experienced the different difficulties, challenges, and failures. We say challenges, but most of those challenges were not so successful, >> right? And if not for everything including the gambling, I would not be where I am today. It was only through 5 years of sobriety and recovery that I was even open to hearing a and for me it was for some people it could be something else somebody else >> there's so and I listen to a lot of things I love and I listen to his every single day >> um I listen to Rabbi Jonathan Rietti there's a lot of different people that I listen to and some might be bra some not >> but you find what connects to you but you can't if you're masking it with all these other masks Yeah, >> the gambler is just a mask that I put on when I want to run away from my problems. But when I can be honest and I can have a spice and I can have conversations with Hashem, >> it's >> at the very least it you're talking out your problems. >> Yeah. And and the Malbum brings this down that one of the two ways to get rid of Yates Sahara is to either suppress it which goes against every psychology in the world today or to um to to think about you know something else replace that with another thought. So as soon as an urge comes up as soon as um you know I want to do more whatever it is if you re recognize what that is and awareness is such a key over here then you have the ability like I say in in in the 12step program they give you 12 steps and then there's literature and there's many other tools that you can use for some people it's meetings for some people it's phone calls in between the meetings I used to make a lot of phone calls as I would hear people talk I would say wow that guy gets me or that guy has my story. I'd like it. This guy called connected so much. He talks about horses that was like 50 years ago. What does he know about today? Right? So now I want to get that guy's number and I'm going to call him. And then there's pressure relief group meeting where you can work on your finances. There's there's getaways every few, you know, months of the year. There's a different getaway. Whatever it might be, I need to use every tool possible to stay in this path of recovery because recovery means I'm acknowledging my life. I'm accepting my reality. For me, fantasy was a huge trigger. I anything that I enjoyed was a fantasy. I liked fantasy sports. I liked movies about fantasy. If it was something I can fantasize about, meaning anything non-reality, I enjoyed that. >> And gambling is a big fantasy. You know, the the Megaillions motto used to be a dollar in a dream, >> right? Or a buck in a dream, something like that. And I heard a guy in a meeting once say it's more like a dollar and a nightmare. But it's it's so true, you know, because the the fantasy that the gambling is going to help me. The money is going to help me. We come up with all these dreams of what I'm going to do first with the money. And if a person wins, they never fulfill even the smallest dream they came up with. Rather, they come up with more dreams. Now that I have this, I'll double this. I know a person who shared once that he won $475,000 cash. >> Wow. >> No one knew he was gambling, especially not his wife. So, what could you do with the money? You can't put it in his checking account. >> Mhm. >> You can't put in your wallet that amount of money. >> He kept it in the trunk of his car in Brooklyn. We're going back a good 40 years ago. >> And he was so nervous. What if somebody opens his trunk? So, he would go back to the casino. Well, guess what? In a couple of weeks, he didn't have a problem anymore. >> He put everything back. >> And to me, that's astonishing. 475,000. The way I was gambling, it would take me probably years to lose that. But when you have access to that much, and that's the worst part. And what I was trying to get to is that even a compulsive gambler who wins. It's not a win. You can't share it with anybody cuz everyone who's not supposed to know you're gambling, you can't share the wins. As a matter of fact, when I when my wife knew I was gambling, even if I lost a few hundred or $1,000, whatever it was, I would always take out whatever money was left in my account from the ATM, come home, show it to my wife that I won. So that the next time I want to gamble, she'll say, "Oh, well, you won, so why not?" You know, there's there's you you can't even enjoy the wins. So if you lose, then you really messed up. And if you win, what are you going to do? And it's just and and the reason why compulsive gambling is so addictive is because there is no win that's actually big enough. Even the person who pays off all his debts, if there's still money left over, he's going to gamble that money and he's going to turn it into new debts. There was one guy who shared he was a big Giants fan and the Giants played the Patriots in the Super Bowl a bunch of years ago and the the Patriots were undefeated. There was zero chance the Giants would win that game. And this guy is the biggest Giant fan in the world. He took out a a second mortgage on his house and he bet the Patriots. >> Now, how a person could do this as a Giants fan, I don't know. But it was like 99% the Patriots were. They were undefeated. Didn't lose a game and the Giants were not so good. They snuck in there and the Giants won the Super Bowl. And as a Giant fan, it should have been the most exciting time in his life. Instead, it was the most depressing because he just lost everything. He couldn't even enjoy his own team winning. And so a compulsive gambler never really wins because if we win, we can't enjoy it. We can't share it. And we think when we do that our spouse or our our friends, our family are going to appreciate it. One time I did win $1,000 and I came home and I laid it out on the bed and she was like, "Big deal. Like I don't like that you're gambling." And I didn't understand her like what? I actually won a th000 this time. >> It was devastating that she didn't have that appreciation. But now I can understand it. >> Let me ask you, what message of gratitude do you have for your wife that she stood by you and what what we see what we see today? I can't put it into words because I don't even think she realizes how much he helped me because there are many people who have this addiction that come in and they actually mean well and they want to do well but either they're not married either they're single or divorced or they're married but they don't have a good relationship. I have some of my you knowish friends that I tell them do what I did and you'll be successful. I can't tell my wife all these things. She can't be in charge of the money. It's not her style. I had a wife that not only didn't throw me out of the house, she's she supported my recovery, but the fact that I was able to give her over this financial burden that I was carrying by myself and she knew all the passwords and every dollar that went out of our checking account was scrutinized. Why this? What's this? Maybe we don't need this. As humbling and as degrading as it was at the time to have to bring her receipts for the $40, it eventually built back that trust. But she gave me the ability to undo all this damage. And I if she had left me right away, I wouldn't have blamed her. But she wouldn't get to enjoy the person that I become. And I'm not, you know, trying to toot my own horn or anything like that. But >> we're married 15 years. So things are are going well and it's almost half of eight and a half years of recovery. And that was my main goal is to have more years of recovery of of then when I gambled, I'll get there. But the point is that she helped me so much, not just by allowing me to go to meetings my first 90 days. And that's the key. People tell you, you have to make it 90 days. If you don't, you have no chance. And so I was going to almost five meetings a week. And we had two little kids at home and she had the burden of taking care of them. >> The compassion that she showed. >> Yeah. And it was hard for her, but at the same time, she knew I needed these meetings. And so the support that I had being free to go and those 90 days were my foundation. I really believe I see the yahashem like I said that friend who bailed me out the fact that he allowed me to pay him back slowly that was such a big help for me. It made me feel like somebody cares about me and it was all Hashem but I called this person on my anniversary every single year >> because I didn't wasn't honest with him when he gave me the money. I made up a story. Now that story was true but that's not why I needed the money. And so the first year I did it and I made a tradition every year after that. I call him on my anniversary. I send him a WhatsApp and I thank him. And I know that he didn't give me recovery, but he was a part of it and so was my wife and so was the therapist and so was everyone in the rooms and all my friends, my family. I mean, even my wife's family. Like they could have privately told my wife, "Throw this guy out of here. What do you what do you need to deal with this garbage?" Not only that, now he gambled and he did all these things and he lied to you and all this money is gone. Now he has to go to meetings, too. So like you're losing out a husband now also. So even within recovery you're sort of almost punishing your wife in a way you know now recovery comes first cuz if I don't take care of my addiction we don't have a marriage and ultimately our lives are both better if we're happy and we're doing the right things for each other. So I'm very grateful to Hashem and to my wife that she stuck with me and hopefully she feels the same way. But you can't do this alone. A person cannot do this alone. You need to have support your your spouse. Now, not everyone's children could necessarily support them, and my children don't know about this yet. My daughter's 14. She'll probably find out pretty soon. But the more people you tell friends and other family members, my like I said, my wife's family was very forgiving and very accepting and I was very happy with that because that's just one less temptation, one less battle. And also really important and I I'm sponsoring somebody now and I tell them this all the time. You need to put up as many protections as you can to make sure you don't gamble. >> Is each one in itself vital just by itself? No, you can not have to do this, right? Just like with anything with right, if you can walk down time square, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. But if you could walk down a different street, you'll be in a little bit less trouble. So, you pick that option. >> Is that going to mean that if you walk down time square, you can't be thinking about Tyra or something else? Of course, it's just one less temptation. So, set up as many roadblocks. My wife had access to all the accounts. Um, she knew every dollar that came in. She knew every dollar that went out. She she had the ability so that if I had a weak moment and I wanted to gamble, you need two things to gamble. Time and money. >> Yeah. >> If you don't have money or time, you can't gamble. Right now, with the phones today, >> time is not so much of a problem. And even money, we live in a community where you can go to Shiners, you can collect money, you can ask a brother, brother-in-law, a friend, whatever it is. If I got into that moment and I had access to unlimited funds, then I'm one step closer to that next gamble. So, I had to set up all these roadblocks, tell my wife where I'm going. I used to go out to eat with friends and take a picture to send to my wife so she sees my friends. Most people say that's the grading. That's a no. It's the greatest form of showing you can trust me because that's called building >> and I'm responsible for myself. But I want you to know that I'm also responsible. And so doing anything you can do to prevent yourself from gambling is important. Doesn't matter if you have eight days, 8 months or eight years. >> Are women also suffering from gambling? >> I haven't been to the casinos upstate. Thank god they opened after I was in the program. >> Not to sell it. But I have friends who go who have went and you see a bunch of from women sitting in these slot machines gambling. Now again, I haven't seen it with my own eyes, so I'm trusting other people, right? >> But if a compulsive li gambler is going to lie about something, it's probably not this. >> Well, >> I I don't see as many women in the groups as there are men, I would say it's about 85% men. Um, I think it's just the dynamics in in the communities that women work and have access to funds. I'm sure there are more compulsive gamblers, but it's certainly in the non-firm world, there's many many compulsive gamblers that are that are women. >> And it's usually because the man is out there, never home, and the wife is maybe bored. You know, when you come into the rooms for the first time, they ask you 20 questions. And one of the questions is do you ever gamble to avoid to run away from boredom, loneliness, you know, fights, etc. There's a whole bunch of things in that one question. >> And like you said, a lot of people they come into recovery and they have all this time on their hand and they're bored and so what are you going to do with that? So yes, you need to replace it. Being a firm person, being someone who has a job and who actually I enjoy learning, I go to a mash. I like I I have I have different shar I keep myself as busy as possible. My wife doesn't necessarily enjoy it because between work and deting and traveling and meetings and learning when am I really ever home but the more things I can do to keep busy especially things that make me happy and that are fulfilling the less chance I have to even want to gamble. So yes, there are times where like I said, I might hear a friend, oh poker game tonight, poker game tonight. Mat Shabas is a trigger. This short mat shabusim such a trigger. But if I don't keep myself busy, >> then I can allow those thoughts to marinate. And if I allow them to marinate, it's going to feel really good one day. And I think the more time a person has of not gambling, it's actually could be counterproductive in a way because you feel like, oh, now if I go back, I'll know what to do. I had that thought a few times. Now I'm careful. I have everything planned out. my wife knows so couple hundred, you know, it's not such a big deal. That's the thought that needs to be >> eradicate that. >> You have to get rid of that thought right away because if you don't, that will marinate and then all of a sudden it's and I missed a meeting and that one meeting turned into two meetings, then I had a sim, then I got sick, all of a sudden it's a month without a meeting and now I'm not in my comfort zone. I'm not my fences, my fences are all down and I'm susceptible. It's like, you know, if you're in the army, uh, if you have no protection whatsoever, it's just a matter of time before you get shot, right? >> What message do you have for people right before Khan now when what you're talking about over here starting when you were a kid? >> What what what's your message to the people? the witness >> kafitl was such a a a trigger for me because it wasn't only gambling but it was a Jewish game >> rightun all these different terms that we use >> and it's kaneka and you see from people that normally you would maybe not expect would do something like this so if they're doing it >> must be it's okay >> right >> and and it really does start out casual and family but when somebody is walking away with a a lot of money that usually means that someone is not or multiple people are not. So what are you recommending? You're not playing the game or you're saying when you get that you described earlier >> uh that that that enjoyment of just watching this thing. >> So a person should should grab themselves. I mean we say don't play it play different type of games. Is that your recommendation? I mean in a perfect world yes >> right I think it's very normal to go to aid and say no smartphones people understand the danger with that >> can I go and tell people don't ever play again I mean it's the right thing it's it's really not okay it's not okay to gamble even if you all agree to lose a certain amount of money nobody really agrees with it and you're playing with friends and family >> and and you know what let's say it's Okay, let's say 10 people are playing fitlick and they're all loaded. They all have the same amount of money, so it's really not going to affect anybody. Let's say or they're all the same poor and they're only losing 20. Whatever it is, your kids are watching. I was watching and I really believe that those times being exposed to that, I didn't have the ability to gamble at that age, but it definitely did something to me. And so all of a sudden one day you wake up and your kid is is gambling. I'm not saying it's because of but it's certainly if you're going to do it don't do it in front of your kids >> because what message are you sending in and and I used to see people play and it really it really did affect me and when I played and I lost against a friend of mine I started hating that person not because I have anything wrong with him but I needed that money a lot more than him you know what I mean >> that is a good point >> and and now he took it so now I lost money. I didn't follow and now I'm resenting somebody that I actually like and care about. >> And what's going to happen is it's now going to take me hundreds of dollars more that I'm going to lose in my regular gambling just to make back that money that I lost in the game. So why even take that chance? You know what's the I think at the end of right >> it's not just some random thing that somebody made up there. There's something behind it. So again, I can't I'm not a rabbi. I can't tell people don't play it. But when my kids want to play Drrele for money, I don't even want to do that. >> Wow. >> Because why take the chance that this is something that they could play for chocolate coins. >> It's not real money. It's coins, right? It's chocolate. Fine. If you need to, you don't want to deprive your children necessarily, but you also don't want to trigger them or yourself. I used to play poker with my younger siblings when I was 12, 13 years old on Shabas, so no money involved, fake chips. >> And those feelings that I had playing against younger people, didn't really know how to play. That adrenaline that I felt in the casino where thousands of dollars were on the line was the same way I felt playing with my siblings. >> Yeah. because it's you want to win or you you know it's it's >> and what I was doing was not healthy for them because one of my brothers I don't think he suffers from addiction but at one point he was gambling more than he probably wanted to and I sort of introduced that to him. So yeah it's not something that we should be doing. It's certainly not something something we should be doing and advertising it and doing it in front of our children. >> Wow. >> And and and the fact that it's a yiddisha game I think makes it even worse. Now again, it it would look horrible at a kanaka party if you're all playing poker. That's also but for some reason people understand that this is not the right place for that. So >> I have a final question for you. Can I put your information on the bottom of the description that if people want to reach out to you, they can reach out, you know. >> Yes, I'll give my phone number and and an email address in case people don't feel comfortable. >> So So we will do that truly. >> Um you shared with us a human story. It is not a gambling story. U it's a story of uh denial. It's a story of secrecy. It's a story of shame. It's a story of fear. But you taught us that healing starts from the inside. It starts from from from yourself. And the message, what's the message? The message is you're never alone. >> And the message is you're never too far gone. >> Yeah. >> There's always have >> more people than you think want to actually help you. >> And are ready to help you. Wow. >> You just have to want to help yourself. And the last thing I want to say is >> I came in because of my kids and because of my wife. >> Beautiful. >> Did not come in for myself. >> But at some point, and I still obviously want to do well for my family, >> right? >> But at some point, the heart the last person a person usually forgives is themselves. And I didn't deserve to live the life. Of course, I was hurting my family, of course, but I was hurting myself. And I couldn't see it. And one other friend of mine told me the same thing. I didn't deserve to live this life. He actually prayed that his wife would leave him. He want he felt that his wife was holding him back from gambling properly. But he decided I don't deserve to live this lifestyle anymore where your insides are in a constant battle of I want to do this. I don't want to do this. I know it's wrong. I can't stop. >> And so the struggle, the name of this podcast is so appropriate and the why I wanted to do this because >> it's such a struggle. And when you convince yourself that you need help, somehow you come up with a reason, not today, a different time. It's not really. And that that internal struggle is something that I could really identify with. And my message to people is you don't have to suffer with it alone. And even just financially, carrying the financial burden for one spouse, even without addiction to gambling, >> right? >> It's not fear. Now, I'm not blaming if the other spouse doesn't want to be involved, but if we do everything together and we know everything about our finances at the same in the same way, there's just less problems, more communication, and less of a burden. And I tell this to my wife. I tell it to people all the time. Tell me what your struggle is. Maybe I can help you. Maybe I can't take away your fight, but maybe I can help you and support you. A person needs to have support. And you need to have spirituality. Call it whatever you want to call it. You need to have something. >> Can't live without it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And balance. If I went to seven meetings a week, is that too much recovery? No. But I'm sacrificing my family. >> But if I didn't go to enough meetings, I'm definitely taking a huge risk. So balance is another thing that people struggle with even in recovery. >> Certainly outside of recovery. >> Yeah. >> The balance is like that. >> Thank you for your honesty. You might have saved someone's life. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.