The Avnei Nezer on the Machlokes Ran & Ritva on Toivas Ha'na'ah {Daf Hashavua Iyun Sugya Nedarim 84}

Okay, we have an unbelievable suga today. The suga is on the bottom of where the garra discusses the uh two cases at the end of the Mishna where somebody says can't get from me. So they could take youris against your will that shows is not financial is not does not have financial value is not mine. And then the next case of the Mishna is if you say I ask these and these then you don't give them the you give them to others that indicates is and they can't get h from you and the says it's not a question one opinion is one is because what's the if you steal your friend's teel and you eat it rebi says you got to pay him the value of the teel say Not in other words, let's take like this. Let's say I steal 10 lb of grain, but and I eat it. Why would I have to pay you back 10 pounds of grain? You don't own 10 pounds of grain. From that grain, you needed to give truma to you needed to give miser to a so I should pay you back only the value of the ken. Rabbi says, "No, I have to pay you back the says no, I only pay the what's is the ownership you have of the ability to give it to somebody. Is that financial ownership or not? Okay. So the first statement of the Mishna that they could force you to give them the chumus that is going according to the opinion that is not m that is the opinion of and the second statement of the Mishna that you have to give the chumser to others that is the opinion of that is however there is a major what does rebi mean that you have to a tel you literally have to pay back 10 pounds of grain. But the guy didn't own 10 pounds of grain. He had to give Truma and Ma to the Coy. Okay, let me get this up on the screen. This shear, it's worth getting up in the morning for this one. Telling you. I'm telling you. You ready? Here we go. says the ran says what does it means you only pay let's say the value of the in other words let's like like this you have 10 pounds of grain the guy had 10 pounds of grain you stole it and you ate the whole thing you have to pay him back 10 no you only let's say the kin was worth $90 And I pay the value on the meaning I evaluate. How much money would you pay for the right to give this away? You understand? I'm not paying back all£10. I'm paying back the plus the value of the to that you have. Likewise, the Rajba says to make when Rebi says you pay everything. By the way, that's not the says you only pay the value of the and the that the person has. um that you're able to give it to any coin that you want. So the and the both say that the means it's the plus the monetary value of the ability to give it to somebody. Fine. However, okay also agrees comes the by the way you know it's very interesting the whether or at has two main navas. Navamino number one [clears throat and cough] is an argu namely do you if you got to pay the devel if is not mine you only have to pay the deen. The gumaran kaducian gives a different afkamina. The Gmoran Kaducian says in Afghan is could you marry a woman with could you say is so if you hold you could marry a woman that's the let's say you go to a woman and you say lady here's my trumus masro But that's not the of our is whether to are you allowed to give it to someone who's not again from you. Comes the ritzvah. You ready for the ritzvah? And the ritvah says the in Okay. When it says that you have to pay the value of the all the and the value of the the financial value of what it's worth to be able to give it to somebody or and that's what the Rajba said and that's what the Ran said in our and that's what said but then the brings another if you hold Then it's considered like the entire Truma and Meer's mine because of my ability to give it to whoever I want. Meaning I right now have chumas. It's worth a hundred bucks. I but I can't eat it. Doesn't Yeah. So what? I could give this a hundred bucks to somebody. So I own something that is valued at $100. Meaning most of the if not all the learn that is only the small of amount of value it has that I can I have the right to give it. But the brings up that the fact that I am able to give it to who I want means I have the full ownership of this item and I need to be compensated for its complete value. So the shil is what exactly is this mahus? What is the is the and the other in terms of how to calculate is to just a small amount of financial value of a benefit that I I could get out of this or do I have the full value of this um so comes Rabbit Peterberg comes from Peterberg and Peterberg has a chuva where brings another mus the mus is how do you evaluate how do you calculate What does it mean? I have the right to give it to whoever I want. Okay. So, how much is that worth? you go to a you there's a special app that evaluates you put into I don't want to say um the what the uh rash of a certain thing is and you ask them this you know I'm not going to say what the two letters are but you ask it what is your opinion of how do you evaluate to is it the fact what's the if I'm a Israel and let's say I have I know a ley in San Diego. I also know Levium in uh in Cedarhurst. So the Shila is like this. Let's say this Ley, his wife's not a Levy. Let's say his comes to me and he says, you know, Gladstein, here's uh here's a hundred bucks. Uh you know, it's a hundred bucks. Make sure you give the micer to the right people. Am I allowed to take that money? Yeah. Ah, so now we're talking, now we have a way to evaluate how much is worth because the is the is allowed to take money to direct his his chum. By the way, according to um nonforprofits, right, are not somebody comes to a nonforprofit and says, "Here, I'm donating x amount of money. I want you to give that money to such and such poor person. You know, I'll do that. They're they're they're using the nonforprofit as a way for giving charity to someone who's not a registered charity. It's only if the non-forprofit itself establishes that something is a proper charity, then somebody could give it to the nonforprofit for that cause. You understand what I'm saying? So Rabbits Peterberg says Rashi writes that the reason why is because a Israel is allowed to be Mabel money to direct his but says no that's not why is because I have the control to give it to who I want not because you could take money to give it. It's because not because I could take money to give it. It's because I have the right to give it. You understand the difference? How do you Why is it because I could take a bribe basically? Is it why is it because I could be bribed to give it to the coory that somebody would like or is it my control? You know, control is very valuable. Men like control gives them everybody in this world feels security when they're in control. What's the lumbness of this is the of how do you evaluate is its value because I could be bribed to give it. So however much I'm allowed to take which is a mu that's how you evaluate or is no control is money what's money is control that's the petber based on two different rashies and shas I want to show you the two rashis rashim and then after once you have this petber the comes and will blow your your mind. You're going to be you're going to be jumping for joy. Okay, here we go. Says it's a small thing. Here's the coin. Give all your truma to my daughter's son. You could take a small amount from the friend of the coenville. Isn't that cool? Says you could take a to give it to the of your choice. However, Rashian says something else entirely. Even though your only ownership is even though the only ownership you have is the ability to choose to give it to who you want that's the ownership. It's a petber says two different appear and two rashies and chass rash says because you could take money to be able to give it to a who it's being directed or is it the ability to decide who it should go to is a is a hah and >> how much is that quantified as >> we're about to see we're about to See how much do you quantify control >> correct with with the you could estimate you know >> exactly we're about to see very good comes a nar and a ner says going back to the ran raja versus thevah namely they want to know when you steal someone's teel how much do you pay do you pay the kulin plus the small ownership of of the rights to be able to give it or do you pay for everything? What's that is based on why would you pay for everything? Why would the say you pay for everything? Says it's on of meaning he doesn't quote raits. He on the rashim against rashi and kadushen. If the ownership if it's estimated based on how much money you're allowed to take for it, then when you steal the teal, you pay the plus a little bit of money. But if the rights to give something reckon you the owner of the whole item, that's the logic of why you need to pay for everything. Says to explain what is explains a small amount of money that you could take from a Jew that you should give it to take from Israel to give it to the son of his daughter of the daughter of Aahim. meaning the son of this guy's daughter who is a and says the and we pointed out the and the dam all say when you steal you just pay the and a little bit but the I could give it to someone who's going to be grateful to me. This is the value of the whole thing. By the way, you know, there are people that are what do you call trustees, you know, they have at their disposal, you know, sometimes someone passes away without error, you know, and somebody's appointed to give out saddaka, to give out their saddaka, right? Or sometimes people work for companies. Yeah. and they have the ability to give out saddaka. How do you determine yeah their benefit from that right? Is it like, you know, they have a couple bucks because if somebody, you know, gives them a little favor, you know, they could take some small favor. They could take a cigar, right? You know, like the there the the case the whole the entire world is being hinged on a court case in Israel where, you know, uh prime minister is being accused, you know, he took a cigar. Who cares? But, you know, how do you evaluate the ability to do a benefit with someone else's money? You know, it's a it's a it's it's an amazing it's an amazing life question. You know, when you have the right it's not yours, but you have the right to give something out. That's very valuable. You know, you're a gab a think about it this way. To me, this the a gab is a right. I look at it giving out ali is you know you have the right to make or break someone's day that is that do you view it well the guy would have paid 200 bucks on yumpt for the aliyah you know or no [clears throat] it's a very very amazing interesting topic I think [clears throat] for this for this suga and wide ranging in general So basically in a nutshell you have how much uh if somebody steals do they pay the extra the and a little bit or they do they pay for everything we have between two rashies and shas how do you evaluate is it bas is it because you could take a bribe or is it just the control you have and are being that the is dependent on the manner with which we evaluate anyway and I just want to explain aside from the fact that this topic is off the charts. The reason the main another important reason why I picked it is because I can show you in the and in the all the various steps as opposed to the first two topics. It's basically I'm telling you a sum I'm giving it to you from a summary safer I that's I don't know to me it that's not a it's eon but it's not from the sources it it needs to be from the sources so I didn't count it okay but but I wanted you to know for yadia but in terms of learning a suga you got to have the sources okay have a great day >> recording stopped >> no this is a very gushmaka topic