The Art of Showing Up and Being Present in Your Marriage, Dr. Avi Muschel PsyD # 143

hi everybody Welcome to let's get real on this beautiful Sunday night here with Coach thank you for joining us we love when everybody comes and uh again tonight is sheer 144 and we uh thank everybody for coming with Coach to coach uh the program again of course sort of every week thanking all the people that posted on the WhatsApp statuses email people a lot to let people know about it and people have come every week and uh we really appreciate like I said every week not every not everybody not every program is for everybody not everything interests everybody but um it probably either for somebody else a lot of people know about it if you're not interested I'd rather think the nice topic is for everybody young and old no matter where you're holding your life I think that's a very important topic and we're here to have a series to really clarify it talk it out and gain a lot of perspective so thank you for joining if anybody wants to get the the WhatsApp every Sunday of the speakers and 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bringing on five times was on before and the topic is expanding the domain of avoidance Hashem how everyone can take their place on the antifuous and Rabbi zakotinski is ready to knock it out of the park I had a little talk with him so uh please join and it's gonna be a very deep and meaningful programs please join us um again it's next year 144 and we have the president CEO and the CFO of the share with us tonight he joined us thankfully we have Arnold freed and he's gonna explain us what 144 has to do with tonight's topic which I'm still not sure what it is first floor would like to wish a big big amount of time is upon the engagement of his daughter and the whole family is only the offered amen that this year is 143. and the topic is the art of showing up and being present in our marriage and relationships and the first thing that came to my mind is how important would it be to realize the good qualities in our spouse or whatever relationship we have and to concentrate positive on their good qualities how how much full of good they are 143 is full of good so we should we should be able to grow on this and reach our goal um appreciate that the beautiful okay so let's get into it we're going to start first with our host coach it's a very long topic so you know it says a lot of stuff in it can you please let us know what are we talking about here what are we here tonight what are we trying to accomplish okay thank you very much I want to welcome everyone welcome to another let's get real with Coach Manhattan on the Sunday nights thank you very much for showing up and I want to thank you all for the feedback whether it's positive negatives constructive criticism whatever it is we always love to see how the audience uh picked up the information so thank you for that we've been uh discussing the past few weeks some heavy topics going into the emotions like what we're going to be discussing tonight's we've had uh Rabbi style discussing that it's not only women men also have that human parts their emotional parts and to find a place where they can express it and not always is it to the wives you have to find somewhere a community which we need to work on and then before that even before we had Dr David Lieberman before pesach how to deflate your ego understand what what are our triggers what's driving us then we had Robert Rosenfeld to understand to find some peace and calm and it's not a goal that will get there one day it's every day no matter what you're going through in the chaos in the noise to find a little bit to be able to find a little bit of fish and last week we had Robbie vigler wasn't an easy topic and it does need some clarification because many people felt and he said it we discussed a little bit about abuse and people walked away feeling very bad that um they felt that it's their fault and he was he was saying that for for somebody that's healthy wouldn't get abused which is not something so we need to understand that and again no it's not it doesn't tell us that you're not healthy somebody was abused and I do want to say for those who feel that they're an abusive situation no matter what abuse is should reach out for help there is help out there and they deserve the help and many times those people that are being abused feel they can't talk to anybody they feel bad they take the blame on themselves so yes you need to reach out and get the help you need and you deserve the help and tonight's talking about EFT we have with us Dr Avi Michelle and again it's talking about emotions emotions is something that for many is still taboo hard to connect to understand what it is what are we talking about maybe the women are full of emotions but men never but it's not only women and men there are many women that I feel they they've conquered that they're stepped up to their plates their husband needs the help with their emotions but whatever it is nothing true with men and women to really understand what what is emotions and to connect to it and to be able to talk about it now that does bring us to a vulnerable topic a vulnerable place which we're going to be discussing tonight but it's it's not it's not always easy talking about understanding what your spouse needs what you need whether it's a love language what language do they talk if you're not aware and you then you can't connect and you might say I told my husband what my love language is that he doesn't hear well that's something to talk about what's that open communication you know before Shabbos he buys me a box of Band-Aids instead of flowers because I told them two weeks ago that I need Band-Aids it totally misunderstoods or whatever it is you need the time you need the time to sit with him or with her to spend some time but they never have time they're always on the go always running but that really brings up a lot of Deep Emotions a lot of things that it's hard and those triggers and yes I do think that it opens up the ideas of how we grew up the way our parents dealt with us the way we took it our you know friends um and all of this comes out after marriage so the truth is we're not going to be focusing focusing only on marriage any time you need to work out something with somebody and that's Sean bias whether it's at work with the finish with your kids appearance whatever it is to be able to understand what they want what do you want what's the trigger how to talk about it so that you can get to a place where you can communicate and detect understand each other and strengthen the relationship so I want to thank you Dr Avi for being with us tonight to help us with this technique that you teach and hopefully this will help us in all the areas to become stronger and have all the relationships and especially with the relationship between Me Myself and I understand myself and with my spouse my kids and with Hashem to strengthen all our relationships beautiful opening okay so let's get into it um first of all let's review tonight's topic it's the longest one but we're gonna get it when we clarify it the art of showing up and being present in your marriage and relationships learning the skills of how on how to cultivate presence and attentiveness in marriage and other relationships to strengthen connections with loved ones well that's really the the topic the next show we're gonna do personally illness my father-in-law was your type was a specialist for all the showroom that we do really in this Christmas or the hundreds of people here that are gonna listen to it the Magnificent thousands of people to listen to later in fact I was gonna do a full name before subscribe Dr Abby I'm going to read your bio and then the floor is yours you ready is a clinical psychologist special psychologist specializing in relationships and working in Clifton New Jersey in addition to this private practice he's worked for four years at Yeshiva University Counseling Center and I spent the past three years at jec high school he's received Sam Smith she was archeim in Queens and his doctorate in Psychology from Milan University post Dr Abby thank you for agreeing to coming on and coming giving your time we appreciate it that the floor is yours okay well thank you very much for having me it is a supposed to be here I'm sorry I think that took so long to get going with this but here we are and as you mentioned we're talking about a lot about EFT which EFT stands for emotionally focused therapy it's a kind of therapy that is for couples specifically it was developed by Sue Johnson and there's so many pieces to EFT there's so many layers so many elements and we're going to get into as many as we can tonight it was I think a 96 hour training so I don't know if we're going to go over every detail but we'll get into a lot of its Hashem of the coming hours I want to really start by talking about one piece as coach Monaco mentioned communication is a major major part of it and we're going to talk a lot about communication communication is not only about you and your spouse that's a big deal but it's also communicating with your friends your colleagues your neighbors your parents your children really anybody but I really want to focus on one piece of EFT really the one that caught me and really brought me into EFT as I'll explain but one piece that again coach Monaco mentioned is the piece of vulnerability now what is the word vulnerability even mean it's a big word it's a trendy word and there's a lot of elements to it we could talk about the risk component we could talk about the reward component the happiness that comes with it the challenges but I really want to focus on one piece and that is I'm going to Define vulnerability for at least right now as being real as being authentic you know the first thing that caught my attention about the show when I heard about a few years ago is getting real like that's that's a good name that's what we're talking about being vulnerable is being real it's being who you are it's being authentic and that's not so simple but that is an amazingly important part of EFT and I'll give you an example EFT when I did the training a bunch of years ago one of the major requirements for the training is that they have a therapist do a real EFT session in front of you on video like this on Zoom but it's in real time it's in real life and you're watching him or her do the session three floors above you in a building whatever it is on Zoom so first of all that's already pretty vulnerable to let somebody let a whole group of people watch your therapy session that's not so simple but let's let's go a little further when I was in grad school for five years I heard a lot about boundaries which is another big word I'm sure we'll talk about that tonight it's also a popular idea and it's very very important it's important to have boundaries in your relationship and in grad school you learn about professional boundaries about having certain safe distances between your clients where you're not getting together for shopping list lunch every week that there's a certain professional balance which I understand and again I respect and I think it's a very good idea but sometimes as a student in grad school it felt like it was a little too much about the boundaries there were so many rule like pathologizing the client if a client says to you you know do you have any brothers so some supervisors would tell you ask them why you know do you have any brothers why do you ask about my brothers and if you know you say I'm not going to be here next week and they say oh where are you going you say oh you know it's not really your business where I'm going and it got a little felt a little uncomfortable didn't feel like me and finally here I am watching this EFT training this real in life for us in Vivo session and George Fowler who's an amazing EFT therapist and he is doing this session he's about to sit down for 60 minutes with a couple and really get into the kishkas of feelings and emotions and vulnerability and right before they sit down the couple says oh so do you have any kids and my heart stops oh my gosh I hope he he says you know why do you ask and what does he say he says yeah I have three kids and they say oh you know where do you live yeah I live in Connecticut my my nine-year-old six year old whatever the kids were and I was just like taken in that moment it's like a little nothing story but it showed me how EFT is about being real the therapist is not sung God sitting on a key say I covered while the two clients are sitting there as these two Network situations it was it's a very different feel it's all three of us me if it's one person one person if it's a couple of three of us we're all just people I'm doing my best in my life with everything going on and stress and challenges the husband is doing his best to be the best husband he could be the wife who's doing the best she could be to be her best like we're all just people trying to be the best and there's something incredibly real about it it's authentic and to come back to that word it's vulnerable living in our community in the front Community it's not so easy to be real there's a lot of pressure there's a pressure to be social pressure religious pressure Financial pressure there's all sorts of pressures that we have that we deal with every single day and to just be our real selves it's not so simple but I think that when we cannot talk about every relationship literally every relationship we're in the more real we are the better we feel and I'll give you example think of your friends friends that you went to Yeshiva with friends you went to Seminary with friends that you live on your block friends that you went to wherever people that you know but you're you're close with I think the ones that you enjoy spending time with I could say for sure the ones I enjoy spending time with are the ones that I could be real with the ones that I could be me with the ones that don't have to dress a certain way I don't have to talk a certain way I don't have to sound a certain way look a certain way I could just be me all my mindless all my has around us I could just be myself around these people those are people I enjoy spending time with when I do spend time with those people I feel good afterwards I feel good about myself I feel good about that experience when I have unfortunately the opposite experience when I'm around people who I have to be careful what I say I have to be careful what I do I have to care what I wear all those things all of a sudden those aren't people that I want to spend time around those aren't people that are fun to be around they're not looking people to be around more so I think for sure in the world of friendship and colleagues and work partners and neighbors we see how important it is to be real and how healthy and helpful it is to be real with other people I think we're not going to talk so much tonight I think about dating but I'll just throw it out there then we talk about dating it's a very big deal to be vulnerable and to be real you know when I speak to young men and women who are dating I tell them this all the time if you the boy are the boy that you read me thinks you should be and the boy that your parents think you should be and the boy that you think the girl wants you to be and that boy goes out with the girl and the girl is who her parents think she should be and who her teachers think she should be and who she thinks the boy wants her to be so those two fake people could get married and that's beautiful but what about La Mesa the Hassan kala where is their relationship where is their shell and bias they have to go on these dates being themselves like I said with older miles and everything whatever it is again we'll talk about vulnerability there's so many pieces here and it's a tremendous challenge but really we talk about marriage tonight it really starts when you're a kid it starts when you're a teenager and for sure for sure when you're dating being a real person on the date showing up as who you are is going to be the first step in building a an important relationship a marital relationship and if we talk about marriage obviously it's going to be a big Focus tonight we're talking about being vulnerable it's not a simple thing it's a little bit easier I'm not it's not it's understandable we're all human it's easier to be critical it's easier to be defensive it's easier to blame people get upset it's it's a very natural reaction it makes a lot of sense but if we could push ourselves if we could be real we could transform all of our communication especially with our spouse we could start to communicate from over here like coach Menachem said from a place of feeling to really share with a person this is how I feel not this is what you did wrong this is why I'm so angry at you yeah that's all that's all logical it makes sense but if we could be vulnerable if we could be real for a minute we open up our heart and say this is what I'm feeling this is what I was feeling this is what I am feeling this is what I want to be feeling this is my wish this is my hope this is my dream all of a sudden it opens up our partner our spouse who loves us to a whole different side of us and I'll just close with with one example of this a real life example it was one of the first couples that I ever saw it was maybe the second or third case that I ever did EFT with and it was a couple that was suffering a lot they were having a lot of issues in their marriage it was really they were coming to me as a last resort Unfortunately they had been through a lot individually and as a couple and I remember this this moment so clearly because again like that training it just caught my attention and I was talking to them and trying to get the I mean that case specifically with the husband and the husband was having a hard time opening up and finally finally after a bunch of sessions we got we got him to to open up to his feelings and to say you know I just feel he started tearing up he said I just feel so hopeless about this relationship I said I I totally hear you I totally get it I want you to now turn to your spouse and tell her that so he said what you want me to tell my spouse that I feel hopeless I said yeah I do so he did it and then as the Ft goes we process it and we talk about it I said to him how was that how was that to tell your spouse that you feel hopeless he says it was terrible I just told my spouse that I don't feel good about our marriage I said let's check with your wife I said to her how was that to hear she said amazing and he looks at her one that was amazing I just told you I don't feel good I feel hopeless about the state of our marriage and she said yeah but for the first time in years I'm seeing the real you you're communicating with me not what you think I want to hear not some just cell phone distract like you're actually talking to me from your heart and as terrible as the words that you're saying are that as bad as it sounds the feeling behind it the realness taking off all those masks and Liars feels so good to see the real you for the first time in years so that's really what we're talking about tonight we're talking about being real we're talking about being vulnerable through that we could hopefully achieve a better level of communication with our friends with our children with our parents and especially with our spouses and it's Hashem will get into it tonight but really this is the idea this is the theme we're talking about we're talking about feelings we're talking about authenticity being real and hopefully leading to a much higher more effective way of communicating with the people we love we appreciate that again we're here anybody has a lot of questions please text us your partners over here a lot of questions to go first if you want to send the questions we could try to get to it a lot of questions didn't come in um we have Dr Avi here is from the best in this circle of EFG I certified that I did it with my EFT background check so if you have a guy who's here and who wants to help ask you questions and let's let's really get clear um we're gonna take first of a poll let everybody answer anonymous let's get a feeling and then we'll jump into questions okay here we go the three question poll answer to the best of your ability hold on okay first question is what is the number one struggle in your marriage and these three options which one would you choose connecting emotionally disagreements regarding raising children we have different perspectives in life three simple answers which one you choose number two four answers four answers what do you wish you learned before getting married First Option effective communication active listening skills B understanding yourself and your emotions better see how to compromise and flexibility in marriage or D how to balance my own needs and desires with the needs and desires of my partner third question what is the most challenging topic to discuss with your spouse four options Number One finances on how to manage them effectively number two dealing and raising our children and it's supposed to say parenting styles uh number three private struggles and having trust and honesty in our relationship number four household responsibilities who's responsible for what just general you know managing things those are three questions answer them and then we'll review them have any good questions great questions okay let's go you're gonna tell everybody what you choose having or you're going to be you can keep the product um I can't like access the whole Polio I come with you the first one so I'll go with that one let's let everybody vote and then we'll see what everybody says and then we'll we'll do a little cover on it and then we'll jump to the questions okay sounds good oh there we go five four three two is that your final answer okay we're gonna stop the poll and we're gonna share with everybody here we go so the first question was what is the number one struggle in your marriage Avi 66 of people here tonight said connecting emotionally so that by far tells you why we're here tonight 14 disagreements regarding raising children 20 we have different perspectives in life any comment or should we go to the next one yeah it's it's really it's a trick question it's a hundred percent have difficulty connecting emotionally the other two are you know just the misunderstandings of the fact that they don't realize they're just struggling with their connection but okay okay I like that what do you wish you have learned before getting married very interesting split a little bit 22 of people say effective communication and active listening skills 33 said understanding yourself and your emotions better only six percent said how to compromise and flexibility in a marriage and 38 say how to balance my own needs and desires with the needs and desires of my partner that's interesting so again there I'm going to cheat and say that the last one of balancing needs could be done better with communication effective communication I love that second one I love understanding yourself and your emotions better to be honest I mentioned before sometimes when I do like dating talks this is a big deal to me is when you date you better know yourself first because your whole marriage is based on the fact that you have some sort of stable identity first and then marriage flows from there so I love that that that's a choice and I appreciate that people said that okay the last question um interesting also very interesting results wow what is the most challenging topic to discuss with your spouse twenty percent finances and how to manage them effectively 22 dealing and raising our children parents with different and parenting styles 48 of people private struggles and having trust and honesty in our relationship and only 10 plus household responsibilities and who's responsible for what I've already said to that one yeah I mean that again we see certain common themes but that that's interesting and that's I guess that's it's it's hard to hear that people are are struggling you know but sinner that that's something they're doing privately but it's not surprising it's not surprising and that's what we're here to do okay so that's it we're gonna stop this um let's jump into the questions if anybody wants to ask a lot please jump on the bandwagon over here text us and then we're going to jump to some questions okay what's brilliant here we go first question as someone who has been married for three years I'm feeling a little uncertain about the state of my marriage my spouse and I seem to get into disagreements way too often I'm starting to wonder if we're on the right path of the wrong path I don't want to constantly be fighting on every little thing that comes up between us it's exhausting and it's not sustainable in the long run I'm feeling lost and I'm not sure what steps to take to improve our situation I want to find a way to communicate better with my spouse and work together towards a happier and more peaceful future together okay so obviously like I've been saying communication is everything here and the fact that it's been three years to be honest is a is good news because it's it's there's still a lot of time you're still very early in the marriage to me three years is still generation it's fine and whether or not that person needs professional intervention or not I can't say for sure but it has to start from a place of communication and let's talk a little bit about what that means we're talking about EFT we're talking about vulnerability we're talking about communication let's let's talk a little bit um I just want to clarify I want you to really clarify what EFT is and even in this question to try to use an example a real life like how would it actually work yeah absolutely so what we're talking about in EFT is we're talking about the fact that when we feel a certain way okay let's go back a little further there is a belief that that I believe strongly I think it's it's Farm shooting to be honest that we all desperately want to be connected to somebody else that's something that we know for sure is true about children nobody in the last 60 years has questions there used to be questions but nobody in the last 60 years questions that a baby wants to be held that little child wants to be nurtured and children love attention that we know for sure that we see with our own children or just children around us kids love attention what's not so understood and appreciated is that adults also love attention we do we love attention we love to be liked we love to be loved and we love to be cared for by other people now like coach was saying at the beginning we we get a little quasi and we talk about feelings and we certainly get very queasy when we talk about feeling needed feeling loved that that's an uncomfortable conversation to have but to be honest it's 100 true that every single person it's built into the Brio every single person has a need to connect to somebody else that's just that's just how it is we know we feel in our life when our our spouse finally does see us whether it was when we were dating hopefully when we were married you just feel you feel rich you feel good that that somebody sees you somebody cares about you it's the most amazing feeling in the world and Studies have shown that that loneliness is is as good for your health as as smoking cigarettes it's just we need we need other people in our lives okay that's step one so now what so what happens is in a marriage in a relationship we want that from our spouse we're always hoping to be close to them we always want to be seen we always want to be heard in that you know the example I always give is think about a little kid we started with little kids think about a little kid walking 20 feet in front of his mother let's say he's six seven years old something like that maybe five years old and he's walking in front of his mother and he says Mommy Mommy I'm gonna go by myself I'm gonna go by myself so he starts walking by himself and the mother says okay go go and then what's the first thing the kid does when he makes it 20 feet in front of his mother what's the first thing he does he turns around to make sure that his mother's still there that's what we're talking about we want to make sure that whenever we look over our shoulder that connecting person is still there so that doesn't stop now that we get married now that we're adults it doesn't go away when we're adults now we still have that feeling and when we're with our spouse or whoever it is we're looking over our shoulder like are you still there are you still paying attention to me do you still care about me as soon as we don't feel that things start to go poorly as soon as I look over my shoulder I don't see you there all of a sudden I don't feel good about our relationship and when I don't feel good about our relationship I do something I protest I could yell and scream that's one form of protesting I could tell you how bad you are what a bad spouse you are how angry I am I could yell at you I could do all sorts of negative behaviors in that way or it could do the opposite I could run away from him I could just shut down withdraw pull back move away from you and that's the second way I could do it those are the two main steps I could take when I'm feeling like I'm looking over my shoulder for you I'm reaching out my hands for you and you're not there taking it it's a devastating feeling I want nothing more than to be able to reach my hand and you take it and when I reach and you're not there I feel so empty I feel so alone so I either get upset at you outwardly or I get upset at you inwardly and I pull away you know there's no gender stereotypes but if we had to do statistics typically the woman is the one who is the one who is you know more outwardly protesting and a man is the one who's typically more pulling away but there's many many couples that are the other way around too so what's the point what are we talking about so when this goes on a month two months six months a year two years this cycle happens it starts to weigh on you you start to feel after three years like you're going the wrong direction we were trying to go in the right direction we're trying to spend date nights and have a good time together but every time one of us needs something we reach for a connection it goes poorly I come home from work and I just want you to ask me how was your day and when I do you don't do that I just feel like oh she doesn't even care and then she tells me she wants to tell me all about what was going on with the kids and and this one and that one and I'm looking down at my phone answering work emails so now she feels oh and I'm trying to reach to him and he's not there so we both get lost in our own worlds we both disconnect from each other and that just gets worse and worse now I get angry why are you on your phone you get angry at me why are you not answering why are you not available so we're both having this negative experience with each other that just deepens and deepens and deepens with time what if we could flip that and dig deeper what if we could look inside ourselves and instead of saying why are you always on your phone you would be able like I said at the beginning to be vulnerable let's say you could say I really want to talk to you it's a long day with the kids with work with whatever it was a hard day and I just want you to hear about it I just want you give me seven minutes just please just be there for me I I want to just know that you care about my day if we could talk in that way where the person knows that you want connection instead of the person feeling attacked and blamed and judged and criticized all of a sudden it opens up the other person to Embassy I think I said at the beginning I don't know whether this case requires professional intervention let's go back now the answer is let's try it I don't know whether it needs professional help let's try it let's start by saying to our spouse I really want to be close to you I really want to be there with you I want to hear about your day I want you to hear about my day whatever the moment is there's so many moments that come up I mean I could I'm trying to think of uh my own couples where they have this like it you know the most typical examples are just things like that family work um kids like these things are difficult you know like um you go through so much stress throughout the day we spoke about the stress that that it takes to be a from Jew in 2023 with finances and working young couples have have two people who are working 40 plus hour weeks there are people spending tons and tons of time with their kids which is amazing but it takes a lot out of you so just say I wish we could talk about my day I want to tell you about what happened with my boss I want to tell you this story that uh this what what our neighbor said to me that was really hurtful and to just be able to reach out to the other and honest and emotional way instead of getting lost in the you did this you did that what I I call that intellectual like you said this no but I said that no let's watch uh you know let's let's pull out like the Alexa and see if she recorded who said what and we could go back to the tape and and see who said like no no no no no we don't I don't care who said what let's zoom in on right now how are you feeling you're feeling disconnected great tell your spouse I'm not feeling good I need your help I want to be close to you when we talk from that place that tends to land very differently than when we talk from the place of criticism of attack of Defense again I'm not saying it's easy and we could talk more about this as we go on but that's the goal the goal is try to communicate from that place talk from a place of honest emotions openness connection and see how that goes if there's something that's blocking you from talking in that way if there's something that's blocking your spouse from listening and hearing that okay then maybe it's time for a more professional intervention that's fine but but at least give it a try start trying to talk in that way and see how that goes foreign question you're on yeah you hear me yes yeah oh question I'm in my third I'm 30 and I haven't finished because of mental health issues I wasn't ready yet I think I'm starting to already um the only thing that's really overwhelming me is like the whole process of um needing to get dressed up and wearing fancy clothes I really like I'm like a simple person I'm just like I will be fine as long as I look good together and I get my hair done maybe and just you know my makeup on I'm totally fine but I know like you know in my you know the dating really have to be fancy I get you know but um you know just I don't know I'm just I'm just like I don't like shopping proposal so I'm just not that tight can I just be real and just and dress we dress with ridiculous but of course being put together or do I have to like get a little fancy like or is it if I don't get all fantasy is that considered not with you know now it's in the Norms just curious like how can I be my real I want to be real like not you know yeah so so that's a great great question I love that question and I was thinking about that question actually today so I'm glad that that somebody else is thinking about that I think the answer is that there's a difference between the best version of yourself versus a fake version of yourself if that makes sense and what I mean by that is yes on a date like I spoke at the beginning about when you're dating you have to be real because I believe that very very much at the other hand it doesn't mean you show up to your first date you know in a t-shirt and shorts and it's all very comfortable in my pajamas because my you know yourself sorry my mistake did I did I read any of that get in or we have to start from the beginning right okay so I don't show up in my pajamas we get that that's not a good idea so we have to wear nice clothing because yeah that's a certain protocol then we go on a date we want to be our best sales but there's a difference I still think between our best self of like the best version of US versus a fake version of of something that's not us you know we get into all these questions on dating like what you should wear I think you should wear like meaning I'll give you a very simple example then we'll get a little bit more nuanced a simple example is where the nicest clothing that you have don't borrow your friend's clothing that's not uh you know that's not you you know I had a good friend who uh when we were dating he didn't love his car not going to be my wrist but I'm even young he didn't love his car so he used to borrow cars for dates he used to borrow nicer looking cars and uh would go on his dates like that eventually true story when I was a few girls like that eventually he realized you know what I don't need that I'm gonna go out with my car but I drive where the the ceiling is kind of like in your head as you're driving and it's fine and if a girl can't deal with that then she shouldn't really be married man I I think I don't want to say my severe but I think the next girl he dated in that car he married and there's just something about that that you know I was talking to a colleague this week about whatever something like this I don't want to get in too many details but I said to him the girl who's gonna marry was going to marry you like with that his son like don't don't worry so much again you want to be your best self if you want to put on a nice suit take a shower or shave like of course you want to look like a mens you don't want to walk into a date looking like a schlum but no either a no girl is gonna do whatever girl's Gonna Wanna Marry he's gonna marry you or B like I said at the beginning if the only reason she marry you is because of this this thing you did then then who is she marrying she's not marrying you she's marrying that version of you it's not real so to answer your question I think it's a tricky balance I I agree but I think we want to be the best version of us you know even when we talk about other examples I think of like opening the door and car and this like all these different subtle things that come up on dates how nice to be you should be as nice as you are if you're the kind of person who would who would do a has it for a person you would whatever open the door whatever these different details are so then do that on a date but if you're not it's it's it's certainly fake to all of a sudden for this next three hours I'm gonna be the most amazing about me this is and then once the date is over now I go back to being you know whoever so I think that you could be the best version of yourself dress as nice as is reasonable you don't go crazy shopping buy clothing that fits you and I don't mean fits your body I mean fits your personality fits your style it's consistent with who you are don't all of a sudden dress with clothing that you would never in a million years wear to any event but now for this three hour date you're gonna wear but with that said we're clean nice good clothing that that's my dim for you that you know brings out your best and I think that to me is the balance of how to best approach dating but I love the question I think that's the answer to the next match some some people feel they want to be real let's say they're married in 10 years and they're not in the good moods so they're just going to come bashing into the house being real in a bad moods which I think you could say the same thing sometimes it's okay not to be real you agree yeah so I think it's a balance like meaning yes you're right it's it's not good to be real if real means you're uh you know just lashing at and being mean to everybody I think you're allowed to be for example in a bad mood like if you come home from work and you're in a bad mood you're cranky like okay you're allowed to be cranky it's not pleasant it's not fun but we've all we've all been there both on the giving side the receiving side of it uh you know again I agree with you but there has to be certain lines where you say okay I can't I'm not gonna be mean I'm not gonna be hurtful I'm not going to say things that are are mean and hurtful to other people but my ladder put my guard down a little bit and and say that this was really hard I really get it struggling to get along with this person that you might not say if you were on a Sunday evening Zoom yeah I think that that's fair you could you know be more comfortable with your spouse with a with a line 100 percent it's a good question you ready okay I've been married over 10 years and I've been in individual therapy for almost that long as well I've been in marital therapy as well we've gotten somewhere my husband says he loves me and cares about me and thinks the world of me this is not reciprocated by me I suffer from Child emotional neglect and I have a very low self-esteem his love just doesn't do it for me it's really painful that I'm trying so hard and not getting to a place where I could feel love and reciprocate it I can feel the love through my support system I I want to be able to feel the love how could I do that um so these are hard situations these are hard situations where one or both people have been through a lot in their life and and this whole process becomes more difficult I think that the answer to these situations is going to be that you have to take it very very slow and individual therapy is very good and very well advised I remember you know I had a couple recently and the woman specifically was was had been through a lot in her life she was a wonderful woman she was articulate she was smart but she had been through a lot a lot of negative experiences and she couldn't even talk about those experiences and when we got into the therapy room with three of us together me with her and her husband it was hard for her to even begin to talk about like like this person asking you the question she couldn't believe that the husband had positive feelings it's a very hard thing so the first answer is the individual therapy is a wonderful way to go because that that's necessary couples therapies for couples individual therapies for individuals they can't neither one of them could solve everything so in this case to be totally honest what happened was the couple came to me for a few months and then at a certain point I told them we have to take a break and she had to go to individual therapy because she was not individual therapy then she was then they came back to me and we we continued to work but it's still hard so what's the answer in that situation it's very very hard but it really starts with one little step one small step for let's say the whoever it is I don't remember if it was a man or woman in the question but the person who has struggling to feel loved and to feel these things has to do his best to her best if they can if they can't they can't but they have to try to do their best to really open up about that say to your spouse I'm having a hard time feeling loved and it's important for the spouse to understand that that's not personal let's I'm just gonna if it's a did you did the person say the gender um the person is the is is the woman that's what it sounds like I'm gonna go with that it makes it easier to have agenda fine so the woman that her husband has given her life okay good so let's say the woman has to do her best in that case if she can she has to do her best to express to her husband that he's doing great but that she just is not feeling loved she's it's not because in him he's not communicating poorly he's not doing any of the wrong behaviors but she's having a hard time and and that's again that's I'm right now I'm putting the Christ on her but it's really a cries on both of them because what happens in those situations very often and this is like what what makes EFT so tricky is very often the husband will say something again in this example the husband says I love you I care about you you're the most important person in the world to me and she doesn't reciprocate she doesn't respond because she hasn't for all of her own history that's really hard for her and what happens in those situations is the husband starts to feel bad about himself now that's not only his wife's fault that's also you know he has to have the inner confidence to know that he's doing everything right but what happens is as soon as he starts to feel that he's doing something wrong then he starts to get angry and then she gets angry and he gets anything we go back and forth to that cycle that we spoke about before so both of them need to sort of like hold themselves Above This cycle from happening it's not going to solve everything but it's the first step is that she would ideally be able to say something like listen I know you love me I know that you're doing everything right you're saying everything right you're showing everything right at the end of the day I've been through a lot and to no fault of your own it's really hard for me to believe that you love me just like I I struggle with my inner voices I struggle with my inner demons to really believe that I'm worth loving and again it's a powerful conversation it's real it's honest it's vulnerable it's emotional and hopefully that reaches him and alternatively it's on like I said the Horizon is also on him he can say listen I'm doing my best to be loving I'm doing my best to be caring supportive I'm trying to show you everything and it looks like it's not working not to get angry why won't you no I think I'm doing my best but it looks like it's not working it looks like you're not responding is there something that's blocking you is it something that's wrong that that reason that my love is not reaching you now we didn't solve everything but now we're having a conversation about exactly this point now we're talking about why it's hard for her to feel loved why it's difficult for him to express it and not have her respond now we're having a real honest conversation between the two of them instead of her just saying no I'm damaged I can't I can't feel love and he says what do you want from me I'm doing my best that's where these things tend to go but as soon as each of them tries to reverse the script a little bit where she talks about what makes it so hard even though she appreciates what he's doing and he appreciate he says he appreciates her honesty but it's hard for him even though he thinks he's doing his best now we're having a little bit of a different conversation hopefully that conversation starts to go a little bit better and turn things in a little bit of a different direction okay somebody sends a very interesting question I'm going to jump to it okay you ready yeah the man hi um my question is I really want more attention from my wife she's busy or tired what bothers me the most is all the time she spends on her phone instead of spending time with me I've explained to her and asked her it always feels like I'm bothering here what could I do and then he says he sends me follow-up to be clear the Crux of my question is how do I tell her I'm craving her attention without feeling desperate I feel she gets annoyed and turned off when I'm desperate okay I'm happy he added that last piece because that's going to be part of the answer too but let's take a second to talk about technology because that's a very popular topic I see it all the time in my couples uh what which which spouse who could make this a poll question which spouse is on their phone more often do you know the answer about women but the answer is the other one not me right everybody always thinks that their spouse is always on their phone they're never on their phone fine this is nice and Nicole young we see it all the time and and let's just be honest about that we're on our phones plenty it's not just our spouse we only see it and appreciate it when it's our spouse we own it talks about that fine about Canelo you need a friend to be able to call you out without the biases but okay what's the point here so the point is it feels like his spouse is always on the phone it feels like she's always distracted he wants to reach for her without sounding desperate so I I really alluded to this at the beginning which is it's not it's not so comfortable to say I really want your attention I really crave your attention I I don't know their marriage but I don't believe that she's going to be turned off by a husband who says I want your attention I really I like who gets turned off by somebody saying I really want your attention I really want to hear from you like I want to see you I want to talk to you that's that that's not the kind of thing that can turn somebody off now if it's too much whatever fine so we could we could talk about that maybe we'll get to that in this question different question whatever but to reach for a spouse from the cornemius alive the bottom of our heart the depths of our heart and to say I want to spend time with you not to say you're always on your phone not to say you never make eye contact with me not to say you're always working you're always answering emails that's easy to say we could do that we could all do that I do that it's not hard it takes a little bit of a of a depth uh to be able to look inside yourself and say I really want this person I really want to spend time with him I got married to them not so that I could look at the this top part of their head but I want to see their face that's a real vulnerable reach that's a real yes to to make of of this guy to say can you do that can you look your wife in the eye not when she's on her phone on a Friday night can you look your wife in the eye and say I want to spend more time with you I want to spend more time with you can you do that the answer is I think he can but it's difficult you don't want to sound needy and desperate and dependent all these words that we have succeeded as a society to make pathological I don't believe that any of those are illnesses mental illnesses we're all needy we're all dependent we're all desperate we're all desperate for attention like I said we know that kids are desperate for attention because they call our names 150 times the Shabbos table you know look at this look at that look at this look at that but adults are just as desperate we're just more socially Savvy at covering it up and hiding it and making it look like we don't need other people but at the end of the day like I said we're all a bunch of children we're always looking over our shoulder to see how our spouse is is looking at us and paying attention to us so this guy first and foremost needs to know that it's not desperate it's not a turn off to your wife to look like you want to have a relationship with her um one one piece that I'll add one other you know part of this again there's a lot of layers to this but one thing I'll throw out there is you have to know timing here we could talk a lot about timing timing is is very very important in these relationships for example if your wife is on your phone is on her phone that was actually the worst time to tell her that you want to have a relationship with her without her being on her phone she's on her phone right now let her be on her phone you're obsessed she'll be upset that's fine that's fine right now she's on her phone let it be but like I said come that quiet time whether that's Shabbos I always tell this to couples everybody has different things some people shop this is the quietest time for some people shop it's the busiest time for some people in my lotion I call Monday morning like the busiest time but for some people Monday morning is so you find your time at spinachas where your wife is not on her phone and that's when you say to her you know I want to tell you that I really want to have a relationship with you and sometimes it's hard for me because it feels like you're on your phone alone and maybe you're not maybe I'm on my phone more than you are which again it's a vulnerable thing to do but I like it maybe I'm on my phone more than you are but I notice it when you're on your phone I don't notice it when I'm on my phone and I really want to have that relationship so at six o'clock five o'clock seven o'clock when you're home from work and I'm home from work whatever it is and I see you on your phone I just want you to know that I'm hurting because I really just want to be close to you and then we're opening up conversations it doesn't mean the wife is gonna just uh throw her phone in the ocean like she might say no I need to be on my phone at those hours my boss expects me to respond to emails until nine o'clock at night okay fine but now we're having a conversation she gets it hopefully she gets that he's reaching for her and then the example of the phone becomes not so important so maybe you're on the phone maybe you're not whatever we could work it out nine o'clock we'll start our conversation instead of seven o'clock or like a Shabbos will have a longer we'll have a two-hour conversation and that'll be our time to catch up whatever the the details are don't matter to me but now we're having a real conversation now now we're really communicating the husband is expressing his term desperate I love it we're all desperate tell your wife how desperate you are but don't tell her when while she's in the middle of an email it's not the best time wait wait till the moment passes wait till like I said it's job is there Tuesday or Friday whatever it is for each person for each couple and at that point sit down and have a conversation I love of you I married you because I want to spend time with you I would love if we could have some time every night where the phones are in a drawer maybe it's at seven o'clock maybe it's at nine o'clock maybe it's 11 o'clock like I said each couple could do their own thing but when we talk in that way it all of a sudden starts to sound different it starts to land differently and hopefully that conversation goes a lot better and and it's much easier then no no what happens if she says that my husband is so needy and if she tells it to him that's probably the reason why he he's not going to say it again because he knows if he tells her I want your you know connection she's gonna just push her right back on his face so to me again needy is not a curse word needy is is a good thing we're all needing I want to understand if a woman says you know my husband is Tunisia husband says my wife is too needy I want to know what that means the word needy is just like uh whatever it's a five letter word what does that mean it's too needy like you don't have time for him okay so let's talk about what time you do have for him I I find again if we want to jump to the bottom of the ocean here in the depths of the souls I find that very often when a spouse says and this is not my own this is a big EFT hash kafa but when a spouse says my spouse is too needy for me if we spend then I'm Gonna Save everybody like eight weeks of EFT therapy here where after eight sessions what we usually find out about that person is what they really mean like if they really get to the bottom of their kids because the depths of their soul what they really mean is I'm afraid that I'm not I'm not going to be there for you enough that's it it's not about you it's about me I'm afraid that I'm not enough for you I'm not able to keep up with you that your your needs are are greater than what I can give you and I feel terrible about myself that I can't give you as much as you need not that you're a bad needy person I'm not here to pathologize you my real fear is by looking in the mirror is that I am not going to be available enough as a spouse to give you your emotional needs and that's a very scary feeling that's the feeling that gets translated when they say it out loud they say you're too needy you're too desperate you're you're you need too much of me leave me alone you're suffocating me those are all the terms that we're used to hearing out there in the world but what their International is really saying at that point is I really like want to give you everything and I'm afraid that I won't be able to I'm afraid that I'm gonna come up short in providing for you and that's painful for me they don't want to feel that pain so they say something else instead is it possible that they mean to say it's too hard for me it's too hard for me it feels like it's too hard I don't know if it's really too hard but it feels like it's too hard when I see that you want to talk on Tuesday night you want to talk on Thursday night you want to talk on Sunday night it feels like I'm not going to be able to ever meet your needs and again I'll skip ahead to the end of the eft the eight 12 weeks ahead what did the the role of the spouse in that place is to just say that when you say to that person I've seen it I've worked with some couples that were very tricky with this where it felt like there was a big disconnect between what each one needed one of them was what we'd call chilled out very low key low maintenance old terms that we've maybe used or heard doesn't have such big emotional needs and the other one has incredible emotional needs and they've been through a lot in life and they feel like you're never gonna get me you're never going to understand me and it's such a deep disconnecting feeling it's just not a comfortable feeling to have the goal after weeks and weeks of digging and digging and delving into this in the EFT is to get to a place where they could say this where the husband let's say in this case which I met the husband being the quote unquote desperate one where the husband is able to say I just want all of you I want your attention I want your love I want your care I want your support and the wife is able to say yeah I I want to give you all that I'm just afraid that I won't be able to and when the husband hears the wife said I'm afraid that I won't be able to provide that instead of hearing him called needy and desperate and dependent and all those negative terms he stopped feeling bad about himself and he could express his neediness quote unquote and she could express her own anxiety of not being able to provide and now they've started to connect to each other instead of calling each other really powerful names that leave a tremendous mark on each of them they start to actually connect about what each one of them needs from the other person and it becomes a very very powerful connection so here's a similar question that came in I gave up on trying to connect with my husband a while ago because despite my attempts I never got the response I was hoping for he would either dismiss what I was sharing or become edgy and unable to listen which left me feeling misunderstood and lonely I'm wondering if EFT can help you know me or my husband to improve our ability to connect and rebuild our relationship so the answer is yes and yes it definitely can again I don't know if it details of what she tried and what happened but this is the Avenue we're looking for we're looking for looking into the depths of your soul and figuring out what your need is and hopefully your spouse is able to do the same thing and then you connect you know one of my my trainers at the EFT conferences were the Workshops the way she said I thought it was like a very good short concise way of explaining all 96 hours of EFT and you know a regular house this was it like uh one one line I mean Hillel is one line of uh mighty Sunny Leone would also help but fine let's take a different one line which is she said the goal of EFT is you start in the world of interpersonal meaning you then move into the intra personal what we call been ishlatsimo and then we go back into the world of interpersonal bin Adam so we start with our maklog are fighting our conflict which is you know um trying to remember your example now was that you know we're not connecting I'm reaching out for you it's not happening so then we look in the mirror and we each one of us talks about what's going on can has I don't know in this case has this wife has this woman reached for her husband yet has she sat down with him and said it's not going well I'm trying and I feel like it's not working maybe she knows that she's trying and it's not working I'm sure she does that's why she's asking the question what I don't know from the question is whether she's told that exact piece to her husband yet and if she hasn't that's the first place I would go is I would share that information with him I would sit down with him again find the right time sit down with him and say I'm trying very hard to connect with you and I think it's going very poorly I feel like it's not working I've been trying and I've been reaching and I've been making attempts I've been trying to get close with you I've been trying to reach for you and I feel like it's not working has she sat down again if she hasn't that's the first advice I would give sit down and have that conversation have that conversation sit down and tell him you're trying you want to reach for him if you're trying to connect to him and it hasn't been going well and it's frustrating you how does he take it it's very possible he'll be defensive because most of us are you might say well I'm also trying okay so if that's what happens I would say to the woman don't don't respond to his criticisms and his defenses double down look deeper into yourself and keep going and say I understand I understand you're being defensive it makes so much sense but I want you to know I'm not attacking you I'm not blaming you I'm not angry at you I want you to know that for three years I have been reaching and it hasn't been going well I'm not telling you so that you should feel bad about yourself I'm not telling you because I want I'm angry at you and I have tanyas and anything like that I'm telling you this because I want us to change I want next time that I reach out I want to feel like we're actually connecting next time I want to reach out I want to feel like you're responding I know that it's not your fault I know it's not my fault we're doing our best so I want next time that you should know when I reach that you should be there not because I'm angry that you're a bad person I don't think any of that but I want you to know that I've been trying and it hasn't been working and as my spouse who I love I need you to know that that would be the first place I would go with that conversation if that continues to go not well so then that's where we talk about having some sort of EFT therapy which is not going to be any different but it's just going to have another person in the room to help balance why is the husband not responding well to that what's again the word I keep using is blocking What's blocking the husband from responding openly is he hearing a criticism why is he getting defensive so sometimes you need a therapist just to help with that but uh strategy the game plan with the therapist is going to be the same thing as what I hope will be that very first successful conversation Hashem that you should have he's going to say he's gonna say I'm listening we're forever talking he always want from us and uh what else do you want from me yes I want right right I told you that I love you what are we what are we still talking about I know it goes like this if anything changes I'll let you know exactly so that's that's what his time is and the answer that she's saying is correct correct I oh I always wanted from you I always wanted from you not once not the anniversary not on my birthday I always want to know that we're connecting so even if we had six wonderful weeks in Hawaii together amazing and then we come back I'm not done I still want to you know hear from you see you connect with you so if I'm her I don't respond directly to that like I said I lean into that yes 100 online I I'm never finished I I want more of you and again if we say it like that who responds poorly who responds poorly to saying I want more of you I really love you I really want to spend more time that's that's not something that you take poorly we take poorly when we get scared that it's gonna be too much like we discussed fine or or we respond poorly when we hear attack when we hear you're not doing a good job you're not a good spouse you don't care about me so when we hear the you you you then we're like well what do you want from me I'm doing my best and then we get into our defensive mode and the whole thing goes off the rails but if we could just sit down for a second each of us whichever one we're talking about the husband the wife whatever and we could just be honest be present pause for a minute and listen and speak and speak from the heart and listen to the heart all of a sudden it becomes a very different conversation let's go okay so my question first of all thank you for all the information it's amazing amazing information my question is very simple do you marry somebody because you love them or do you marry someone because you see there is potential to love them I hope I'm not gonna get in trouble um my answer to that is the first one I I know but that's controversial I've given this talk places and people yell at me um I believe the answer is the first one I never ever ever ever ever first of all would advise to marry somebody based on potential that to me is a disaster waiting to happen I would never ever advise a person to marry because one day that's that's already a bad start but the first answer to me is is very clear you marry somebody because you love them what is real love oh fine so we could talk about this for hours um I have spoken about this for hours but I believe that you marry somebody when you start to feel that disconnection that we're talking about you have to start to feel it before you get married and then you spend the next 75 years watering it and growing it and developing it into a beautiful tree that's not my muscle that's the the Malibu who says that the goal is we take a little seed a little plant a seed of love and it grows into a beautiful flower a beautiful tree whatever it is but we can't take nothing put it in the ground and water it and then all of a sudden a beautiful tree grows so we have to have real feelings in my opinion I know it's it's controversial I apologize but I believe very very strongly and unfortunately I've seen too many times too many times in my marriage experience the other side when people get married without having feelings for each other and unfortunately my experience is very bad with that you have to have some kind of connection that that really makes this whole thing work and then we build it and then we you know again engaged couples come to me it's fine there's not a lot of Canada there's like the seeds they want more they're looking to get closer that's beautiful that's great we could build 75 wonderful years off of that but it has to be that if there's literally nothing if it's just like oh there's a lot of potential I'm not even going to say all the things I want to say now this person thinks it's a great idea this person told me that like if I marry this person I should you know I should be so lucky to marry this person that's not good I don't I don't uh yeah okay well you ready for the million dollar question yeah okay here's the million dollar question I'm expecting the answer in less than two sentences you ready okay let's do it here we go it can be challenging to be vulnerable to unhealthy people and you'll you'll uh as a person wrote a specific thing I don't want to write it I'm writing unhealthy and you could break it how you want and I believe that my spouse may fall into that category I'm not sure what to do or how to approach the situation do you have any recommendations on how to handle this now unhealthy is very broad so take it from there okay I don't need two sentences I'll just say two words it depends is that good okay next question it's a very hard question it's it's really my heart goes out to everybody who everybody knows probably one person submitted that question but I'm sure many people feel that question it's a hard situation and there's no easy answer to that which I think is why you're saying it should be two sentences because you understand that it's obviously a very hard question the answer is really though it depends every situation is different like you said unhealthy is a very general word so we could we're not going to talk about diagnosis it's not important but there's different levels of unhealthy somebody unhealthy they're never receptive they're sometimes receptive they're always I guess they're not always receptive they're sometimes receptors are never receptive are they abusive what does abusive mean verbally abusive physically abusive there's so many possibilities in that word unhealthy and the answer is it depends I I am a big believer in human beings that that's why I do EFT as I've sort of hinted at throughout this discussion is I really believe in people I believe in the good in everyone and I I've seen people who are not so easy to work with through some incredible things um you know when you really like you can take somebody who's been through a lot I I've had clients who are both on on second third marriages and have been through other sorts of traumas and it feels like you can't do it and you do it anyways and it's it's very very powerful like that the um the muscle we always give is that game I don't know I don't know if it has a name but it's that game you play like in Camp or something where you you fall backwards and somebody has to catch you so there's all these like funny clips where like people do that and they fall fine but that's really what marriage is really relationships don't make any sense we fall backwards and we ask our spouse to catch us and they don't they let us hit the ground so any normal person would just say okay have a good job as I'm done but what we human beings do is we continue to trust our spouse and we fall back again and we hope that they're going to catch us this time and we land again on our back and it's very painful and again any normal say hello person would say okay that's it two times you fail let's let's move on but we don't do that we don't use our relationships and to be honest that's what I love I love that we don't give up I love that human beings never give up on other human beings I think it's it's a tremendous physics to be honest like it's awesome to what number never it hurts people thought that we keep going it doesn't matter how many times we fall we continue to trust other people I mean I'll give you a real exam like in a very healthy marriage in a very healthy marriage how many times has our spouse let us down like the answer is tons tons not three four five times tons in the healthiest of marriages if you're married 50 years your spouse let you down a few hundred times and if we're talking about somebody who's unhealthy then multiply that by 10 or 100 or whatever it is you know they've let us down multiple times a day an hour or whatever so it's very difficult and it's very painful and I love the fact that people don't we don't give up on other people we keep trying but it's only only if you have in between something to hold on to right there are points again we're being honest here there are points when you do have to let go there are points when you do have to know that it's too much and that the pain you're being caused is just like infinite and the reward you're getting is either nothing or close to nothing there are times that you have to just know that how do you know that I I can't give a great answer to that sometimes it's helpful to have an outside person help you with that sometimes you just know in your heart that it's mine it's enough there are times when it's too much and I don't that doesn't mean that the relationship has to be over again each situation is so different it's hard to talk so broadly but in those situations sometimes you have to just move on and moving on could mean getting divorced moving on could mean not getting divorced it could mean that you just make a decision that I'm not going to be vulnerable in this relationship anymore it's going to be what it's going to be and it's not it's certainly not an ideal marriage obviously the way I'm speaking about vulnerability I don't love the idea of a marriage without vulnerability but okay if you've been burned too many times and again I can't say what the number is but if you and ideally I would speak to somebody whether it's a Rob whether it's a therapist whether it's ideally somebody who's not okay because biases are going to mess you up here but if you speak to somebody that's like I said a rob a therapist who knows what you're talking about and they really hear that you've tried and you've done every angle and every option and you've been so clear with your spouse about what you need and they're just unfortunately not a healthy person who could be receptive who could be helpful who can really get you to where you want to be where you could actually be vulnerable with them that unfortunately there are times where you have to give up like I said giving up doesn't have to mean divorce even though that's what it sounds like giving up could mean taking a different approach to your marriage where unfortunately the ceiling of your marriage is going to be a little bit lower you're not going to have this connection that we're talking about where you're going to be so vulnerable and tell your spouse your deepest and darkest Secrets you're not going to tell them all of your goals and aspirations you're going to tell them what time they need to pick up the kids and and what day the garbage goes to the curb and it's it's uncomfortable to talk about it's uncomfortable to think about nobody likes to think about that but we have to be honest it does come come a time when that when that line is crossed like I said I'm not in a position to speak very broadly about what that line is I I certainly believe very much in people and and pushing as far as we can until we hit that line but when we cross it we cross it and then we have to regroup and come up with a plan B is that two sentences no no so here's another question that came in I feel that everyone including my spouse keeps on saying to go to therapy spend money to talk and discuss basic communication why can't we just solve this one problem that that we have why do we need to go to therapy discuss all of our past issues and every aspect of Our Lives so that's a great question and the answer is you don't if we you know you watch this entire show we should be fine but the truth is that communication is not so easy and that's really what we're talking about here is that it's a big Challenge and one of the reasons the big challenge is exactly what we're talking about is because I mean the question they mentioned their past experiences let's let's slow this down let's let's play this out a little bit let's take a real life example right um I recently had a couple they graduated but Hashem doing well I texted them two weeks ago they're still doing great so I'm happy to hear that they had been through a lot in their life each of them had had stories that you can't imagine really really wild stories so yes in theory they were both smart people they both been to individual therapy they were very self very self-aware couple they both knew themselves inside out their spouse inside out it was like a Makai to work with them because they were so ready to go in therapy but they had a lot that they had been through in life and okay so this question is like so what so what why can't we just sit down and talk you're right in truth you should be able to and you should but what makes it challenging is because these things create again the word I keep using and I'll explain it a little bit more in this question the thing that keeps happening is what I keep calling blocks there are blocks this guy had been through so much in his life he had been let's just keep it sort of generic he had been told by parents that he's not good enough he's not valuable for his whole entire life so now when his wife tells him you know something he needs she needs from him he starts to feel like he's a loser he let her down he's a failure and she doesn't need him to feel like a failure in that moment that's not helpful she just needs him to hold the baby or listen to her complain about the baby or listen to her complain about her parents or whatever she doesn't need him to feel like a failure and shut down and feel disappointed that he's never going to get it right and he's the worst husband ever that's not helping her right now so in theory yeah communication is amazing obviously I love communication but it's not so simple when we come to the table with our suitcases of all of our experiences so here the woman was saying you know uh whatever yaakov what I need from you is I need to talk to you about you know what happened this morning and all of a sudden he hears yankov you're the worst person who ever lived you're a failure you're bad you're always going to be bad so we all that's what that is we answer the question that's why we need to go to therapy because he needs to understand that he's not bad he's not gonna be the worst husband ever he probably already isn't the worst husband ever he's amazing but he has all those voices yelling at him that he hears over and over again because of everything he's been through so he needs to have that other person in the room just to help him realize what's going on for him he doesn't even realize that when she says to him can you help me with the baby he's hearing I'm the worst person who ever lived I'm the worst husband so he needs a therapist to help pull that out if you could realize that on his own amazing and like I said they just graduated therapy a few weeks ago I texted them they're doing well because this is what they're doing now now when she reaches out to him he realizes that there's a voice in his head saying I'm the worst husband ever but I need to hold that for a second and realize that's not what she's saying and then he's able to be present with her and Hara I haven't seen them in however many weeks they're doing a great job on their own realizing this realizing that he's she's not accusing you of anything but you have these voices because of the suitcase you bring and that's okay and like I said she had her own thing she had her own suitcase her own history that she brought in and the same thing she had to work it through and appreciate she's also a good person she's also a good wife she's also a good mother so many reasons in her own head that she didn't believe that but the husband that he was never saying any of that to her so yes the answer to the question is is you don't need to go to therapy if if you could do this on your own the problem is it's very difficult we're all no gabada we all have biases we all have blocks that stop us from either communicating very clearly what we need to say or just as challenging hearing very clearly what the other person is saying so because of my block it's hard for me to say let's go back to an old question I'm desperate because I don't want to say that I feel that when I feel desperate I feel like I feel like watching my parents their marriage which was a disaster I feel like I'm watching that all over again so I don't want to say desperate so I don't want to say that so if it needs the help of a therapist therapist to be able to pull out and say no you need your spouse it's okay you're not bad you're not needy you're not desperate and in that case it's the job of the therapist to help the person Express what they're having a hard time expressing in the example that I gave with the husband and the wife that I just stopped seeing recently the job of the therapist is to help the person here because so often we hear you're bad you're terrible you're the worst and we need to pull that out and be able to just listen and be present I think this is all in the title be present and be mindful with what our spouse is actually saying we need to just hear them listen to them and respond to them that's a big deal that's a big big deal it's a big challenge you know we think again I'll just talks you know say we think a lot about communication as talking we think communication means to talk and that's not crazy a big part of communication is talking I'm communicating right now by talking there's non-verbal Communications eyes I'm using my hands a lot so fine that's that's all in the world of communication but what we don't appreciate an EFT definitely does appreciate is that the other half of communication is to listen you have to hear you have to really be listening and it's very hard to speak it's very hard to be vulnerable and honest and to speak and that's a lot of what we're talking about tonight but we have to really mention the other side of this and I just started it but let's let's talk about this for a second which is it's also very hard to listen it's just as vulnerable for me to show up and to listen Sue Johnson who invented EFT created EFT whatever you want to call it she has this expression where she says are you there for me it's like a line we say are you there for me how do you spell the word are a-r-e so she uses that as like a rashitavis are you there for me stands for accessible responsive engaged our are those are like the three words those are the three things we mean when I say are you there for me what I'm really asking is are you accessible which comes back to our phone technology conversation you're sitting across from me you're available you have time for me responsive it means you actually are like engaged in what I'm saying if I'm complaining you're like yeah that's so hard instead of no it's not my fault it's not my fault and engage is that you're actually you're there you're present so we're talking a lot about the communication the speaking part because it's so hard but I think that just as important shouldn't like get lost in this is the listening it's really really hard to listen if your spouse says to you I really want your intention when you get home from work you have a long day I really want to talk to you that's really hard for me to hear that without hearing you're always on your phone you're always distracted you're always doing something and the other half of this Abode that we're talking about tonight in the world of EFT half of it is to be vulnerable enough to actually express your deepest feelings the other half is to be present to really sit with your spouse or partner a friend or whatever we're talking about in this case and really be sitting with the other person and listening to them and listening to what they have to say without being defensive without interpreting it as an attack and to just listen and hear them you know this um thus in college training that I do there's for for premarital there's a these two cartoons which are very very funny I wish I had them in front of me I don't I'm gonna see if I can remember them by heart but it's called what he said and what she heard and then the other one is what she said and what he heard and in the I'm trying to remember which one which but the uh whatever I'll get the general nozzle even if I forget the exact words but the first one is called what he heard and what he hears his wife saying is you're irresponsible you're reckless you don't know what you're doing you're you don't know how to be responsible for adults and for children you don't know how to behave and you're basically a grown-up child and then in the second slide they show what she actually said which is drive safely honey right because again we we interpret that what does she mean drive safely she thinks I'm reckless she thinks I'm irresponsible something like that and then the second cartoon was just the flip of that where it says you know what she heard and she hears the husband saying in the cartoon you know you expect me to clean the house take care of the kids do everything clean up make dinner it's just not possible and in the second slide it says what he really said is are you feeling any better so you know if it's the same thing as you know he's just saying are you feeling better maybe he means in an early way but she's saying oh why is he asking because he's nervous he's he thinks that I'm too demanding he thinks that I have to so yeah in summary you know a lot of it is about communicating it's about speaking but the other half of communication doesn't always get the same PR is how important it is to listen to be present when you're listening not just to be present and vulnerable when you're speaking you're on hey can you hear me yes okay so a lot of what you're saying is my life I'm married for over 20 years working very very hard to save my marriage and keep myself together but um it's not working my husband is that person who it doesn't matter what you say um he's a bad person in his head so I if I say good morning it's like good morning I'm sorry I didn't say good morning to you first or something like that like everything is he's in the bed and it's not necessarily that's how it is um for many years I'm trying to work on this and I think at this point um obviously um I'm emotionally divorced from him already I have chosen to um take care of me and my kids because for years and years and years all I wanted to do was to make him happy and it took me many years to realize that I can't make him happy if he himself doesn't choose to be happy um both been in therapy for many years um and I I'm really at a point right now of requesting the um very separation to see if we work separately to see if then we could come back together and do it but I really don't want to do that and maybe I've never heard of EST before tonight and I want to know if this is something that as a last resort before I request the separation if it could help so I'm sorry that you're going through that I'm sorry that you feel such a burden that you alone are the one who is fighting for the marriage and stating for the man and trying to save the marriage it's such an unfair feeling to have you have to feel that you're carrying that burden alone and you know I I respect however you perceive whatever decisions you make I find that people you know usually know you you know you better than anybody else knows you and you certainly know what you've been through better than anybody else knows what you've been through so there's certainly no judgments in terms of how you go ahead and I hope that uh everything should go well in terms of you know this specific question like it's hard you know anything I'm going to tell you know already anything that I'm going to share with you you've heard but there's two things that I would add and then you know coming back to the EFTPS number one is is there's a sign in uh principal's office in the school that I work at it says the kids who are the hardest to love are the ones that need the most love something like that thing is I still love him and that's why I can't separate right and and the fact that is amazing and that means that that he just needs more love he needs more love he doesn't accept it how can we get left to someone who doesn't accept it right so if he doesn't accept it what does that mean that means that he needs even more which again it sounds crazy you're already giving him so much how could you give him more love the answer is he needs more love because it's so hard for him to believe that another human being loves him he's been through whatever he's been through in his life he really can't believe that somebody else loves him and that's why we like I said we we Double Down triple down quadruple down 22 years yeah I mean again I'm not I'm not judging I wanna I'm a little bit on Mclean I really want to understand this you're telling her to commit yourself I was still there's nothing left of her left at what point is that point where it's not healthy and it's gonna destroy the person themselves it has destroyed me it has destroyed me identified through therapy and built myself up and realized that I deserve more and that's why I'm at this point and another thing is is that am I showing my kids by staying in my marriage that I'm Giving Up on myself for quote unquote love I have a daughter who's 21 in them what am i showing her giving up myself Losing Myself so that I can keep my family together like where where it is where is the line drawn like I I don't want to break on my family I want to keep everybody together but I myself okay I've been through a lot I lost I lost my parents very close together in the last five years two years apart and when I lost my father the second parent I felt that I have the the the feeling of of uh what's it called the when you love somebody without any attachments I forgot what it's called what unconditional unconditional love I feel felt so alone you know when I still feel very alone in the world because yes I have my siblings and everybody has their families whatever but I don't have a husband I am alone and every day I get up and I take care of my family and I do for my family and but I'm alone I'm a single mother a single parent but I'm married so I can't reach out to get help because I'm married and I feel that if I wasn't attached then maybe I could take like I have lost myself I I'm at a point right now that I can't grow myself and be myself because of this relationship I I I think that it comes back to that point you really have to you know you know yourself better than anybody you know what you've been through and if you feel that that you're you're not a person you're not a functional person as long as you're in this relationship then I understand you like again I I believe I'm not I don't want to be misunderstood with what I'm saying this is not your fault it's not that your husband is right this is not I'm saying the opposite but there there's an opportunity for what EFT would do like coming back to your last question then we'll go backwards but what EFT would do was it would try to understand why your husband's can't feel loved and see with the help of a therapist if he can change course and open himself up to being vulnerable to feeling loved it's it's vulnerable of you to feel all that love for him can he match your vulnerability and feel loved as well it's possible that the ship has sailed and it certainly sounds like you've put in so much effort that I don't want to make you much much more uh you know go along further with this and and lose your own sense of self because that's never good you have to be a person before you're a spouse I believe that very firmly so if you feel like you're losing your sense of personhood and that you're not a functional human let alone parent and sibling and everything else so being a spouse is just it's just not not helpful but to answer your question about is EFT still hopeful again maybe can EFT help your husband realize uh again I don't know what you've spoken to your husband about so I don't know how much he realizes like where you're at with this I don't know if he realizes that you're at the the end of the end of the end of the Rope or if he just thinks like uh in his mind it's been like a rough two weeks I don't know where where he thinks so in theory I would want to open his eyes to this and let him know that you're one step away from separation and see if that is able to open him up if it doesn't then there's nothing really left to talk about unfortunately but maybe maybe sometimes that last pull of like you know I'm one step away from being out the door I have one and a half feet out sometimes that's enough of a of a his own risk for him to say okay I'm gonna I'm done I'm Gonna Change I'm gonna do it and maybe you haven't fully given up on him and and if you haven't then he's able to wake up from that conversation in that situation I wouldn't I wouldn't be against trying EFT but if you've had that conversation and he's already passed that or you already passed this conversation then I feel your pain and I'm not in a position to to tell you to go further with it I'll I'll share one really good line it's really a really really powerful line that I heard from one of my trainers again at the cfd conference I've quoted them a few times because they're really good but one of the trainers said when somebody asked her about like divorce and separation she said what she tells her clients and I use something similar with my clients is what is really what I'm telling you I think which is I always am optimistic and I always am a believer in Hope but I'm never in a position to tell somebody how much pain to endure and I think that it's a very powerful idea which is I can't tell you if a person who's asking this question how much pain you should go through like you don't tell me when I have to take Advil and go to the doctor I can't tell you how many years you have to suffer in this marriage before you you get out so it's a very personal difficult question and I believe Ben Munich schlima that you're the best person to answer that question because you know and if it's time it's time nobody has any less respect for you because of it if there's one little opening of light then beautiful let's let's give it that last chance let's let's push for EFT let's have an uncomfortable conversation with him but if that point has passed then nobody here has any judgments of the fact that you've endured more pain than than you can just just um just uh thinking if somebody has been by EFT and done the work and not seeing results what's the next step I'm saying the question is for those who are out to lunch the spouse doesn't respond and they've done the work and it's not working so the question was is it possible to continue such a marriage getting support from somewhere else so this is this is the question that we called before you know the what was the word we used unhealthy something like that unhealthy spouse and and this is similar to the question that she's asking right now is when do we draw the line and say you know I kind of can't go any further I don't have a good answer but yeah if a person is incapable they've been to EFT they've been to three I mean how many times do people call me for therapy you're our fourth therapist like I was what would happen to the first three you know I always like it's a scary thing to say so you know at a certain point if a person is unfortunately incapable based on whatever it's not what a life circumstances childhood and whatever it is but if a person is incapable of getting to that place of being available or being responsive and being engaged in therapy emotional conversations then we have to move on and again I said before moving on can mean different things moving on could just mean moving on mentally and being what this this question called emotionally divorced and for some people that could work for some people that could be more painful in which case you need to get legally divorced and fully divorced in the philosophy divorce whatever like in the literal sense but at a certain point if a person is just not available not able to do it they're not able to do it and we can't you know again I I think deep down every person can be capable every single person in the world since other Maria has had feelings so everybody has that ability but if they've closed themselves off they've built so many stone walls over their feelings and we try and we try and we cry and we reach and we beg and we therapy and this therapy and that therapy and it doesn't break through those walls it's painful but at a certain point we we let go okay so here's uh the next question how do you how do you handle distractions and other external factors that can make it difficult to be fully present in your interaction with your spouse with your loved ones for example I'm having personal family issues siblings that need my help a lot plus overworked I'm just exhausted so it's hard for this person to be present with his own relationships this is a big problem now I I see this a lot I was noticing this and thinking about writing about it speaking about it's just such a common Trend I'm seeing now with a certain demographic couples that are in their 30s and 40s that I mentioned this quickly before they're both working many hours combined they're both spending a lot of time with their kids which is amazing it's a big brother maybe no generation has ever spent more time with each gendered parent fathers mothers like it's something we've never seen before but the result is you're exhausted so we have a lot of Demands on us that by the time we get to our spouse we might be out of energy so it's a challenge and we have to be respectful and and we have to be in it together it's it's not again we made the joke before about the phones who's on the phone more it's always my spouse it's not about that it's not about blaming the other person it's really again we get into like the mice of EFT it's like a whole different about marriage and relationships our goal is that it's not me against you it's we're on the same team it's about we're having a hard time we struggle we're both working so hard we're both you know how ridiculous is this situation that everything is so crazy and uh you know like it takes like a stepping out and laughing at it how how crazy is it that on the Sunday that my son has his football league and my other son has his baseball league and that night I'm scheduled to be on Coach Menachem that Sunday is the exact day that my six-month-old chooses to be sick for the first time in her six months of life we are in horror so we laugh at it it doesn't become it's my fault it's your fault who who's responsible who who has to take care of the baby who's gonna take the baby to the doctor we don't make it into a a adversarial relationship it becomes let's join in this together and appreciate that we're having a hard time I'm not better than you I'm not worse than you we're both having a hard time with how busy we are and if we start on that step on that foot where we're both on the same page we're both we both want the same thing we both have the same goal in mind we both want to get closer we both want to spend time together the conversation starts to get lighter right if I ask you like when do you want to go out for dinner and you say yeah I have to see and then I start to get annoyed with you no you told me last week to wait till this week you told me this week's week till next week like when could we go out so that already gives a certain vibe to it that's gonna steer the conversation a negative way but if we could just laugh a little bit and be on the same page and be on the same team and appreciate we're both so busy we're both on our devices all the time I'm on my phone all the time you're on your phone all the time I feel like we're basically just having my forehead is talking to your forehead when can we just have a real conversation should we go out for dinner this week should we spend Shabbos together a little bit like spend time Friday night shop this morning Sunday morning whatever it is like I said each couple their own schedule knows what they know what's best for them but let's let's be in this together instead of coming from a place if you're always on your phone let's come realize that we're always on our phone I'm always on my phone you're always on your phone I'm always with the kids you're always with the kids not like who's the better parent who's the better worker whose job is harder once we get into competitions we're going down the road the wrong road we have to get to a place where we're able to say we're in this together we both want the same thing I want to spend time with you you want to spend time with me but it's hard I know your job is so hard I think you know that my job is so hard let's see if we could connect when's a good time and it just changes the the vibe the energy of the conversation like that that just shifts everything when we have a whole different feel to it that makes everything much lighter and much easier foreign yeah can we answer that one yes okay let's let's jump into this a little different angle okay sure how do you balance the need for personal space along alone alone time with the importance of being present and attentive in marriage and relationships how do I communicate that I have these needs to my to my spouse so in short I'm working on personal therapy I'm going through some deep trauma issues and I need private time to process whatever I'm going through so how do I deal with that so that's a very good question it's a very important question again like like the cell phone it's a very common question I see quite frequently with couples there's always in many of the couples that I see there's one person who always wants to talk about it talk about everything and there's one person who never wants to talk about it and let's just kick it down the road let's talk about it next week I can I can and and they're what they're really saying I think it's it's a different version but it's the same idea as I need my I need my space I need my time I need a little bit of room and again it's really going to be the same theme it it's about how you say it how you hear it changing the whole muscle so that it goes differently what a person can say in that situation is you know I need my space and what the person interprets is what do they start to hear I'm too much I'm suffocating I'm needy I am what was the word I was obsessed with before um desperate um I'm so I'm so much I'm too much I'm just not a good spouse I can't I can't hack it at marriage because I'm too much for my spouse we need to like shift away from that and this person who's asking for space they're not doing anything wrong it's very healthy to have space in a marriage you don't have to spend all day every day together you're let it have your own space your own friends your own even secrets to a certain extent you want to have your own life within your manage not like a hit in life but your own part of life your own experiences it's fine but how do you express it how is that person expressing it are they expressing it in the way that helps the person feel desperate and needy and suffocating are they saying stop suffocating me you're too much so again coming back to our our very consistent theme here it's going to be about how do you express and how do you hear and the person who needs space say that and I work with my couples on this say that say what you really mean say I've been through a lot as a kid and it's hard for me to talk about that with somebody else I find even my spouse even you who I love I really love talking about anything with when I talk about this topic it just overwhelms me I find that the best way for me to deal with this is in my own head I go for a walk I bring my music with me whatever it is I feel good I feel understood I feel like ready to move on and that's the best thing for me can the person say it in that way without blaming the other one of being too close to suffocating too needy and you just say it in that honest reflective like I said way of saying I've been through a lot and I just find that I need my own space with this and it's hard and the other person on the flip side hear that and they instead of getting in their own head and being defensive about how needy they think they are how suffocating they worry they are how desperate they feel they are can they just sit look in the mirror and say I'm a good spouse I'm good I'm not doing anything wrong if she or he needs their space that's fine I don't have a problem with that it's not bad I'm not and I just it's not a personal attack on me I'm not a bad spouse but they just explained that this is how they deal with their trauma they go for a walk they listen to music I think that's a very healthy thing for each person to have their space again to me it's all about how you're expressing it how you're communicating it is it coming in a way that sounds like an attack and assuming that it's not is the other person able to rise above hearing it as an attack ideally both of them could do it in that way the person could just say honestly this is how I deal with things is that okay and the other person could hear it and beautiful Israel I mean again just you mentioned I mentioned like trauma like sometimes the the content of the conversation is very loaded so it sounds very personal it sounds like somebody's blaming the other person when you're talking about like a trauma sometimes it sounds like well you is there a secret you can't tell me no I could tell you everything but the way I deal with it is on my own it's not because I'm keeping a secret from you it's just I need my own personal space to deal with that I I hope you understand that I love you I care about you but this this is just how I deal with this issue is I just go for a walk by myself and 20 minutes later I feel better and when you say it like that hopefully the person's able to hear they love me they care about me they need space I remember I had it was really maybe the most extreme example of this it was really one of the most extreme examples I ever had of a couple where one of them really always wanted to talk about and the other person really really really didn't want to talk about it like Godzilla cuts are like far away from each other on this extreme and what eventually he had a very good line he was the one who wants to talk about things all the time and he had a very good line he said to his wife if I felt that you didn't think I was too needy like you love me I would be fine not talking to you for like a month I just need that feeling that I'm not too much when I feel like I'm too much I need to talk to you about again and again and again and again to make sure that you love me but if the depths of my heart I felt good that you really really loved me I would be totally fine don't talk to me for a month I feel good it's all good so I don't think a month would really work for him but the idea is there and just by saying yes that's gonna work it wasn't yes but it had to no she had to say it in a way that he was sure and it didn't happen unfortunately for a while it took a lot of time to get there I just want to say one more practical I haven't said a lot of practical things it's been a little bit more theoretical the communication piece is practical but also one like Lamesa tip is that I think it's important to have like we spoke about this a little bit before Taft times is the person who always wants to talk about it is nervous that if we don't talk about it now we're never going to talk about it and the person who never wants to talk about it is nervous that we're always going to talk about it so even though I'm not a big believer in compromise in this situation I like compromise as a way of saying let's find a time that we could both agree is when we're going to talk about it again I've given this example a few times already Shabbos is my favorite example it's my own personal example but I think it's worked for a lot of couples but it's not Shabbos whatever but that gives both couple both members of the couple a little sigh of relief because let's just say we chose shop it says our time that we're going to talk about it so the person who's nervous that we're never going to talk about it is now has there yes they know come Shabbos we're going to talk about it and the person who is afraid that we're always going to talk about it knows that on Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday right so we have four days that I don't have to worry about it and then you have the one day where we will worry about it so we both go to sleep feeling good that both of our voices were heard your voice was heard that we should talk about it at some point and my voice was heard that we don't want you to talk about it today I'm just saying that's the reason why many people don't like Shabbos it does it does force those conversations it does and they're uncomfortable but that's what makes our marriages okay here's a question which we've covered well I'm just going to read it again and uh let's see what comes out my spouse and I have very different communication styles I love talking about my day friends struggles what my style doesn't seem to have the same interest in these topics it can be frustrating for me because I feel like I'm not being heard or understood on the other hand my spouse tends to keep things to themselves doesn't share as much about their own life this has created a bit of Disconnect between us and I'm not sure how to bridge the gap I want to find a way to communicate more effectively with my spouse better understand their perspective but it's difficult when we have such different approaches to communication thank you yeah so it's similar to what we've discussed but let's take it like one step further we'll mention a piece that we haven't mentioned yet it's an important one I'm surprised that we didn't get to it yet because it's a big deal and that is when it's difficult to talk sometimes we talk about talking and that makes it easier like the way I think of it in in Michelin is when it's hard to jump into a pool sometimes we step into the pool and everybody has got different styles I'm always the guy who steps very slowly the water gets up to your knees then you know a lot a lot you get into the pool some people like to jump in it's really available but when you're not succeeding and jumping in it's too big it's too much so let's talk about talking let's have a conversation about our conversations let's explain why it's hard for me to talk let you explain why it's hard for you to talk now again at the beginning of that question I forgot the the wording but the beginning of that question is very similar to what we just discussed which is we have different interests we we're we're not always aligned different styles and that to me is not a big deal let's talk about it but sometimes the person asking the question says like it doesn't even feel like that's enough like we're on such different wavelengths we're we're opposites and how we approach things so that's where I would start to have a conversation about the conversation so I would say you know I I realize every time we get up that I get home I like to talk to you about my day and you seem totally not interested so I just want you know that that's hard for me I would love if we could have a part of a night where we could just talk 15 minutes 30 minutes 10 minutes whatever we have time for about my day that that's very important to me so now we're communicating about communicating we're not just saying I need this from you and I want this from you but we're talking about what I want to talk to you about which paradoxically or maybe very fittingly is makes it easier to talk about that opens up the person because if you try to just jump into it and say what's your problem how come you don't listen to me I want to talk to you about my day it's like too much it's too uncomfortable so let me talk to you about what I want to talk to you about I want to talk to you about our conversations at night I feel like they don't go so well I would love if we had time I don't know it feels like we're on different wavelengths it feels like we're not connecting I would love if there was an opportunity for us to have every night where I could talk to you a little bit about my day and then whoever the other person I forgot the gender the husband the wife can say yeah I hear you like it is hard because when I go home from work I'm really not interested in like anything else I just want to like go to you know just go through my work emails and and just go to bed it's hard for me to start again with a whole new thing and have like emotional energy at nine o'clock at night and listen to your day but obviously I want to be there for you so let's let's come up with a plan so it makes it a little safer for that second spouse because we took like I said like we took a half a step in we spoke about what conversations we're having instead of just saying this is a deal I need you to pay attention to me it's like we're talking to each other every night and it doesn't seem to be going well again there's no judgment there's no criticism how can I have this conversation with you that it'll go better is it better if we don't have it I feel bad I really want to talk to you about my day could there be a time of night that we reserve to have a 15 minute like check in with each other where we just talk and I won't have any pressure on you before that or after that or anything like that does that work and we we go from there I I think that that's a very very good first step it doesn't really only answer that question I think it touches on a lot of things about when it's hard to have these conversations what do we do I think the answer is let's start with the conversation about the conversation next time let's jump on one more live and I have a few more I just want to cover before we go to the end um you're on hi can you hear me yes okay um so my question is uh many times we're just coming at things from kind of like a reactive place and it seems like we have to be super in tune or in touch with what's beneath the surface of my reaction um so my question really is how do you get to the root of what the real underlying issue is and and kind of um address that instead of like the reaction of what's Happening so that's a great question and the answer is I think twofold number one practice and number two timing number one practice is the more we do it the more we start to converse with like the way you said so perfectly like from the root of the issue the emotions behind it and not whatever the details are that we get distracted by the more we do it the better we get at it the more we realize that when we're arguing we're not actually arguing about where we should go for Shabbos we're not actually arguing about where we should cancel our send our kids to Yeshiva but we're really arguing about is that I don't feel like you're seeing me or I don't feel like you're hearing me or I don't feel like I'm hearing you like that's that is the root of our argument so great you said it perfectly but by practicing it the more and more we converse that way the more we get used to it the more we appreciate it that's really what's going on that's number one but number two is also very much about timing and we've hinted at this before we'll talk about it again is is there's an old expression in the world of psychology it goes strike when the iron is cold you can't have conversations when we're emotionally heated we're not we're not going to have productive conversations I say this to clients all the time I just use my own my own schedule as the example but like nine o'clock on a Monday night that's not the time to talk about what were you thinking when we spoke about going to your parents for young Tiff and what was I thinking that's not gonna that's not gonna be a good conversation Monday night let's just at both of us we should admit we're both tired it was a long day let's hold off the conversation one of the things that I love about relationships and marriage I know it's it's it's not always so simple but 99 of the time they're not going anywhere at least not tomorrow we have a week if I don't talk to you about the issue tonight it's fine we could talk about it on Tuesday on Thursday and Friday on Shabbos next Sunday like very few issues in marriage are are genuine emergencies we have relationships there for a very long time we'll get to it so if we have a very hot topic a very hot conversation we don't have to rush if we're both tired if we're both exhausted we both had a long day at work or with the kids or with both we don't need to like force this conversation right now because I'll just be honest with you it's not gonna go well I just could sign off right now it's not going to go well let's wait till we can have the conversation better let's wait till our brains are on our heads our heads are on our shoulders like everything is connected the way it's supposed to be we're thinking normally and let's have a good healthy conversation when our heads are clear when again that sometimes couples tell me that they never have that I understand it's very hard everybody can I answer us for one second what about like I I know for myself like if sometimes I'm like really in a bad mood about something that has nothing to do with what um is going on at that moment but it's something that happened previous but I have that that I need that time to kind of dissect like what am I really uptight about like it's not the fact that you didn't put the dish in the in the dish drainer it's because you didn't like get off you like pay attention to me when you came home like but but it won't be so like obvious that that is the thing that I'm upset about right especially when you're upset about it when he's not putting the dish into the thing that's when you think that the issue is about the dishes but then if you choose and again it's it's a tremendous which I admire but you could try to do it's not an easy thing but if you could push off that Mark you know that argument that conversation because right now you're angry when you're angry you're not going to have a good conversation right we tell this to our kids when you're hungry when you're tired when you're not feeling well like you're not gonna have you're not gonna be your best self so you're not going to have a good conversation with your spouse when you're upset about what they just did we're talking about the phone before don't have a conversation with the phone when they're on their phone or immediately after that's the worst time to have a conversation because that's when they're going to be most defensive you're going to be most critical like it's just not the right time and space for it wait like I said strike by the iron is cold wait till everybody's emotions are cool and calm and we're both in a good place maybe it takes you a day to figure out why you're really upset you don't feel appreciated you don't feel like he's seeing you but he appreciates how much you do he can't just do this one simple thing of putting the dish it's not about the dish it's about feeling valid and appreciated so it might take you a day to figure that out it might take you a week to figure that out I don't know when that is but when you figure it out let's schedule a conversation can we talk I think I realized Sunday night that whole thing with the dishes I I realized why I was so upset about it right and like listen to how I'm saying it I realized why I was so upset about it right I'm not saying I realized why you're really you're really such a bad person it took me a couple of days but I realized why you're such a bad spouse that's not the language we're using it's like oh I'm curious about it together we're on the same team I thought about it I realized that this is the reason is it okay if we have a conversation it's still going to be a difficult conversation but if we're in the right mindset now we could sit and talk and say you know I realized sometimes I don't fully feel appreciated in this relationship sometimes I feel like I work really really hard and I ask you like a little thing could you just put your your plate in the dishwasher and you don't do it it just it feels like you're not taking me seriously it feels like you're not valuing my time you're not respecting me you're not appreciating me whichever one feels the most right maybe it's a combination but when you say it like that it's still hard to hear but it sounds different than waiting right away that night saying why can't you put your dish in the thing you don't put your glass in you don't do this you don't do that I ask you to take out the guard and then we just get into a whole thing it doesn't go anywhere so just pause it's okay that's not going anywhere this week let's hold on hold that thought hold that feeling think about it be reflective piece look into yourself and then we could come back and we could have a conversation with our spouse in a common place it's still hard but have a conversation of you know what it is I realize like almost like huh I realize that this is what it is I realize that I don't feel appreciated in that moment I don't feel valued and again he may have a hard time hearing it I'm not doubting it but it's easier than if you say at that moment why don't you put your plate away but if you don't realize like what if you never like what if it's really difficult to to sort through and that's maybe the the like block of the communication is like I have a hard time identifying what what is going on with me like I don't know I don't know how I'm feeling that way so again that that's where we've said before earlier tonight that that might be where therapy is beneficial not because it's such a terrible issue necessarily I don't know the extent of it but because you're not able to see it you can't see your own experience all the time so all of a therapist does again it's not it's not just scary process the therapist is just helping you pull out what your feelings are that are blocking you from expressing it and in theory the therapy is helping your husband pull out whatever feelings are blocking him from hearing you and why when you say I don't feel appreciated he gets all worked up in theory I don't know what his reaction is but the point is that's what the therapy does is when you can't do it yourself so find Savannah the therapist helps pull that out a lot of us a lot of self-awareness it's hard a lot of self-awareness a lot of introspection and reflection and it's a real challenge to really do well very good okay so let's go to the next question I'm trying with my spouse to build this strong relationship it can be challenging when other people such as in-laws get involved for instance my in-laws may have different expectations values beliefs about marriage and how we should I always do things with thinner which can create tension and conflict in our relationship with marvelous with my spouse how do I navigate this situation okay so you're not going to believe this but it turns out that fighting about parents is actually not so uncommon um according to one study I saw done in 2009 in the from Community parents was one of the five biggest argument topics I forgot the whole list um whatever we could talk about it I forgot what the list is but it's out there so parents and in-laws is is a major topic of discussion so we need to say um I don't know which way to go with this there's a few angles here let's talk about parents first and then at the end we'll see if we go back but when it comes to parents it's an issue that I see all the time all the time all the time espe I mean I work a lot with young couples so especially with young couples it's like a a real issue to balance out and to navigate that they're always feeling this this pressure there's genre Shona in the early years of the marriage certainly during their engagement so what do we do with that so It's Tricky there's a lot of honesty that's required in the communication but there's one piece that I want to add we mentioned it a little bit before I want to really expand on it because it's important in this context when we talk about parents and in-laws the couple has to feel they have to feel like they're on the same team we're talking before about how how every time there's a conflict there's really a deeper feeling so we mentioned a few of the deeper feelings here we just gave the example of the dishes feeling unappreciated unvalued so I see a lot of arguing about parents in-laws your parents are so annoying you're going to your parents for shop this is so hard this is how I have come in in my experience working with these couples like I said often newlywed couples this is how I understand that claim this is all again we'll skip like four sessions for everybody who's had this issue you could skip ahead four weeks and get to this punch line I think this is what I see very often maybe it's yours too I don't feel like I'm your number one I feel like you like your parents better than you like me that is very often the feeling I see for people who have issues with their parents it's it's not that your parents are different than mine okay your parents or couples are different who cares your parents have input that we don't really okay the issue is I think that you take your parents advice very seriously more seriously than you're taking my advice that's the part that's really painful and that's really creating a divide between us if we both feel like we're on the same team so who cares so your parents are a little different okay so we'll have a phone call with them they'll tell us what they think we'll hang up the phone and then we'll talk to each other and we'll decide how we want to send our kids then whatever it is but it gets a little sticky in the marriage when I feel like you care more about what your parents have to say then what I have to say you care more about what your parents have to say than anything else that's when it gets a little bit uncomfortable so that's really the conversation we want to have again I can't promise you but that's the issue but in my experience it's a lot of the times that's the issue with parents is that feeling of second best second fiddle whatever you want to say however you want to say it that's that's the feeling I often see in these kind of scenarios so the conversation that has to happen is we have to get you a husband and wife Hassan Carla on the same team you have to be each other's number one and the other person has to believe that you are their number one you have their back no matter what they have your back no matter what it's not me and my parents against you and your parents because sometimes when we're dating maybe even engaged it is a little bit like that my parents thought that we should get this band your parents know that in a little bit it's like me and my parents versus you and your parents at the very least at the couple if not before that it has to be me and you versus the world and if our parents say something that's helpful beautiful we both got help from our parents and if our parents are doing something that's difficult that's stressful that's annoying that's intrusive it's not pleasant nobody likes to deal with that but it's me and you dealing with our parents on the outside it's not my parents I'm not juggling you and my parents I'm with you my number one and then my parents have to we have to navigate how they deal with this you know how we deal with their advice and how do we respond we have to be respectful Etc like there's a lot of pieces to balance there but the bottom line is the feeling that has to go in those situations is we have to feel like we're on the same team it's you and me versus the world and my parents are included in the world not included in you and me there's other pieces to that question but I want to I don't know like maybe we'll get back to that whatever you want okay I'm Dr Avi but we got to go to closing because um's tired me me especially but we have a lot more questions that we did not cover and uh you know what that means right what does that mean you have to come back okay next week you told me that I'm not available for you so I'm trying to not be defense but I think February 27 and February 27 I think I might have something for you okay Michelle coming on tonight getting tremendous physics I mean tonight was very very powerful the questions were powerful and I think we covered a lot but there's a lot more to cover thank you so much for coming again uh Tonight Is the personal thing the other person there Joseph Heim and brindle peril ous and again if anybody wants to join the WhatsApp chat to get every Sunday the florist is what's happening at 848-525-066 and say my number.com you can sign up for his emails we get all the information if anybody say the first time every Sunday 9 9 30 the zoom ID we've covered so many topics and so many amazing people that come on next week is Eric Lewis so please join us yes he's gonna really bring in and show us with us he's going to really give us specific meaning before we go into that young to expanding the domain of avoidance Hashem how do everyone could find their place on Choice it's gonna be a very powerful event please please please everybody join let people know about it again everything will be recorded will be on my knockinberg.com if whatever has any questions please email Coach gmail.com and tonight share again is shared number 143 Now 44 143. and um if you want to listen to it we also put up on the phone line at 848 777 grow that's 848-77 grow you can listen to it on YouTube on Spotify and apple podcast collection another 50 other websites um so listen to it listen to the share over and over again if anybody wants to be in contact with Dr Michelle I'm going to say the information I'm not going to put in the email anyway so I'll say quickly his email address is Dr Michelle that's drdr m-e-u-s-c-h-e-l gmail.com his website is Dr avimichelle.com and he's giving out his phone number so everybody could harass him his number is 848-232-1177 again that's 84 845-232-1177 again thank you to all the advertising sponsors of liquid scoop early and Ariel from 5con Central Kyla California and Dr Abby was amazing tonight it was powerful it was vulnerable we did we did the EFT but just by doing this year this year should be called let's get EFT we should change the name to it we're gonna first go to the closing the number is eight four five somebody texted eight four five not a four eight a four five um and uh thank you again for coming on and manage after two hours now this is this is what I'm talking about is that what I'm saying now you're gonna come out with what you want to close with yes so thank you thank you Dr Avi and um Sam should help us all there's many out there who need Yeshua and they need help and many out there are going for help whether they feel it's working or it's not working they don't know what's the what's the next step but like we always mentioned we can't forget uh it's Fila Hashem put us here this is where I am now this is my struggle what do you want from me what do you want me to do I'm doing so much we gotta talk to him but like we heard this is emotional focused and because it's focused sometimes it could get hard and um I wonder how many people I mean maybe you could tell me are healthy in the sense of nothing comes up from the childhood and when they have the conversations everything is in the present moment they don't have triggers I think many many have baggage many have things that they bring along from the younger years and automatically in relationship that's where it comes up and it takes work like like we heard even before going TFT you might have to go to individuals therapy because that's what comes up in EST to be able to to talk to your spouse in an open way you know this is what comes up to understand and like we heard a lot of self-awareness to become aware of what are the triggers why do I feel this way by yourself with before you go into your spouse and discussing it be able to sit down why do I feel this way ask yourself and then wait there wait there wait for the answer to see what comes up and say why do I really feel this way you know something deeper and many people do need somebody to hold their hands with the therapist is somebody who can help them guide them and um on the way we do need some supports like we heard in the past do you have somewhere else to go for support while your spouse is going for work hopefully it works hopefully you get through to them but where do you get supports while you're on the journey while you're not getting it from your spouse you have to get support somewhere else a little bit of self-care you can be a schmatter not going to work if somebody feels like a schmato then whatever they're working on is not going to work so a lot of self-care a lot of self-awareness and a lot of FILA and thank you very much Dr Harvey for being here and like we heard we'll need you again it's Hashem one day we'll continue the conversation and essentially help us all whatever we need to go to the next step with what we learned tonight and then let's get to the let's get to the to the closing I'm just gonna read one text that somebody wrote okay okay you gotta mute yourself okay somebody who just wrote this one of the texts but I just want to read it because I want to I want to understand my communication I wanted to understand clearly what people feel about him this episode tonight was incredible Dr Michelle is brilliant his teaching tonight was so informative and helpful thank you so much we'll just help put it together should be good okay closing um I didn't prepare anything so I'm just gonna uh there is a a common belief that that the state of marriage in America right now is at an all-time low but the divorce rate has an all-time high and that marriage has never been worse and the research actually finds the exact opposite the divorce rate is very high that's true but the reason the reason the divorce rate is high according to signs according to studies on this is because people in our day and our age right now have never been asking for more in their marriages they've never been reaching higher they want so much from their marriage we're so into self-awareness and emotional vulnerability and communication we talk about all these things we have this incredible podcast that talks with different people on this topic every single week there's so much information out there about therapy about emotional vulnerability all these things we're talking about every concept is so out there right now that people are able to reach for more in their marriages than they've ever reached in in thousands of years and so the bad news is unfortunately there's a lot of pain and I I we spoke to some people tonight and so many people have had bad experiences but the good news is people are awesome and that when you just believe in another person and you reach for them so many times it goes well and the marriages today in our day and age are are among the best marriages in the history of the world people today who are married and it's working and you're able to go to that vulnerable place and the other person's able to hear you that feeling is is better than any other feeling in the world people who have felt it now people who haven't felt it no but that's why they're trying so hard to feel it it's such a powerful feeling to feel connected it's something that we just like I said we don't ever give up on because that's all we want and so the people who unfortunately are struggling are struggling but but when you get to that place when it works when you're able to have that even if it's just that moment with your spouse or with your friend or with whoever your children your parents and you're able to really just speak to them honestly and have them listen to you honestly it's such an unbelievably powerful connection it's such an unbelievably powerful feeling that it's exactly the kind of feeling that everybody on on this Zoom is just reaching for and striving for and uh Hashem should help us that we could continue to reach forward and strive for it and achieving it and getting that feeling of connection and as we approach The Voice not only our connection with our spouses but our connection with Hashem is the one that we're really working towards for another few weeks towards shavua so to feel that connection with everybody in our lives and we should keep working towards uh achieving that goal thank you Dr Avi again everybody have a great night we'll see you next week May 21st it's 9 30 with Rabbi yasi zakatinski you get ready to become the playro for everybody inclusive how to get everybody involved and what there is to offer please please join us it's gonna be unbelievable you're the best thank you very much