Techeiles Debate Simplified 📘🧵

[music] It is my great pleasure to welcome a friend of mine, Rabbi Nelson Dubin, who I'm here in the snow. We closed the shade, but he is in Houston, Texas, and he runs the Kosher Institute, which is a beautiful program that teaches mashkim and people in the food service industry how to keep kashas and work on kashras in the kitchen. But that's not what we're here for. As you see, Rabbi Dubin is wearing a nice blue suit and a nice blue tie. He has written a wonderful small pamphlet simplifying the debate and that's what I need. I'm a simple person. There is a vast amount of literature pro more pro literature less um critical literature critiquing the but when Dubin shared with me this small pamphlet that's available on Amazon but we'll share the PDF with our listeners. I asked for come on and share with us the proofs and the rejections of the attempt to discover Rab Duben. Thank you for joining me. Maybe just give the listeners a brief introduction of who you are and how you got into this. >> Yeah, thank you Rabu. I've been watching the old Torah platforms. It's been incredible and it's just unbelievable. I mean I use them and it's really amazing work. So call to that. Thank you for inviting me on. Um so my work is definitely not inas and there are many more people that are much bigger experts than I am. Um I got into it because I was originally giving a shar on and was like you know let me look into it and I'm you know trying to look into it very very objectively from both sides and you know I bought all the swarm and the books and the pros and the and the and the cons. And [clears throat] I went through it and I really was trying to really filter out a lot of the noise because there's a tremendous tremendous amount of literature, you know. So there's there's um there's cafer, you know, which is uh you know, it's coming up the opposite way, but it's there's beautiful cafer um and uh you know, the rarest blue. there's there's there's so many so many different um swarm that were put out and way many more even in more recently and so on. Um so I really just tried to cut out the the really the core basics and try to understand what are the basic riots for it proofs for it and the proofs against it so a regular layman like myself can uh you know understand the the the sigia better. Um, so if you want to dive in, we can dive right in. >> Perfect. So, Rabbi Dubin shared is going to share slides that he put together. Four parts actually three parts and a little bit introduction, when were the attempts made, what were the attempts, why the original attempts were rejected, what we're at today, which is the murex, the proofs and the rejections, and then most importantly for many people is who cares? So if it's not the right one, put it on anyway. It might be the right one, which is an important question. And then he'll just summarize the takeaways. This should not take that long. Rab Dubin has it very clear and concise. So let's jump right in. >> Yeah. And I would just add I would just add one more point before we start is that um for every single one of these slides, you could probably write a full safer. Um and for every critic point, there's a proponent point that's not mentioned. And for every proponent point, there's a critic point that's not mentioned. So the the world is vast and if anybody wants to dive deeper there's an incredible amount of literature if you want to go further into it >> and that's why I think this is the debate simplified or maybe debate for dummies. [clears throat] >> Yes. Okay. So we're going to go through we're going to try to create a develop a balanced analysis. So just to really see both sides and see what what are the two sides of the coin. So let's just back up. So the says, right? So we have a mitzvah in the um to put on a a blue string um from we'll see that doesn't say but later on we we see that it's made from the and we're trying to understand sort of what is that blue string? What is that made out of? [cough and clears throat] So just go through a little bit of background as far as the like when when do we when did we have it when was it lost? So it's interesting when you look at the history um it's clear that the mitzvah was practiced to some degree even after the destruction of mdash. We don't know exactly to what degree um the latest known reference that we have is who I believe the sham says was a member of the abundance. Um but it seems that even then it was somewhat of a novelty. Um and you know we'll learn dime now this is something that's very much you know front and present and paraglas and then when we jump the next source that that that I I found that I saw referenced was which is you know a little over 200 years later whatever it was says that the wasmas says a similar thing and unavailable. So it seems like there's a period of time that's sort of when it sort of became lost somewhere between 510 and 750. So the first attempt at trying to find it was the redba the famous red and he put out a safe I mentioned before he put out a bunch of farms. They're put together easily available called cifas. Um and he first he did a lot of research trying to understand sort of what are the requirements and and trying to identify how he could find it before he even found it. So he traveled to Naples to an aquarium and he spent an incredible amount of time there really going through all different kinds of marine species trying to figure out what it is. He came out ultimately that the cuttlefish is the and that's the source of and if you look at the picture in the background it's a wonderfully beautiful marine creature and um that's what he that's what he felt and and the color looks you know looks right and his followers there ultimately began wearing this cuttlefish [snorts] and it was mostly adopted mostly by not so much beyond that Ravzag the later chief rabbi of Israel he actually wrote his doctoral dissertation on trellas and it's it's also available online. Um and he proved conclusively that that the cuttlefish cannot be tas. So at that point pretty much the red was almost universally rejected. I think you know there are still those that will wear it but for the most part I think it's mostly rejected. He suggested as a possibility maybe the Gentina snail. Um but it didn't sound like he was super confident about it and ultimately was it was rejected and that doesn't seem to be coming up as a legitimate possibility. >> Just jump in um as far as actually wearing. So I have a couple of neighbors who do um I should ask them as we learn. I'm assuming they still make it from the cuttlefish and not from theorex. But I also have neighbors a neighbor who is a radical a grandchild of the red and they do not wear. >> Interesting. Interesting. Wow. I don't know that many. So uh it's interesting that this both both options are on the table. [snorts] Um so in recent years really what we're focusing on right now is the murix trunculus. Um, and if I didn't pronounce that right, you'll have to forgive me. It's not my expertise, but there I think actually it was renamed to a different scientific term, but either way, what it is is is a snail. This this is a picture of of of the snail. I actually have the shell. This is the mir shell. Um, that was the current the current option that's being presented as so it's a [snorts] snail that's found in the Mediterranean Sea off northern Israel. And we're going to do um is try to understand first how the is made from it and then we'll jump into understanding whether it makes sense it doesn't make sense with the different proofs and so on. We'll get there in a minute. Okay. So just as an overview [clears throat] the evidence for the basically five points. Number one is um the one of the requirements is that it has a color fast blue dye. Mir definitely has that. Um the Gmorrah talks about that there's in the times of Kazal there was a and and at the time they mentioned it but it's something which is available as well now that there's a kala elon which is a plant derivative a a dye from a plant derivative which has a uh similar color to and talks about how to differentiate how to be able to identify which is which and what's fascinating and we'll get to this more in detail in a moment is that the chemical the chemicalructure structure of the color elong which is the indigo plant. It could be sourced from different plants but the indigo color has the exact same formula as the murus. So it it seems to line up very very nicely. Rashi describes a kilazin as a worm [clears throat and cough] and a snail is essentially a worm in a shell. So and the word for a snail in several Middle Eastern languages is or something along those lines. So that's also um very much a strong evidence. Geographically um we find the snail shells exactly where the Gumar seems to place it. There are ancient mounds of craft New York shells found on these sites which seems to imply that at least a dye was being made with it. Doesn't necessarily prove it was but it proves that a dye was being made. And finally that historical sources call the mur perfura. Madrasim call it similar kinds of perpa. perfura and different different um different langu different terminology a little bit variances but fundamentally that word seems to be associated with murex and um and that's also something which is referred to so it also seems to indicate that this is a very very good option how do we how is it produced um and just as a note these the visuals are for illustrative purposes only um and it's not not meant to represent present exactly how it's done. But the the first thing they do is they lower baskets [clears throat] with dead fish. They lower them to the ocean floor. The snails come into the baskets. They raise the snails. Number three is they extract the mucus from the hypob bronchial gland. Um and then it goes under goes color changes and then ultimately it's exposed to sunlight which makes the purple into a blue. So that's the simple process of how the murx is created. Okay. So that's sort of the the general idea. So that's the introduction for what we're going to be discussing. We're discussing the mir trunculus and trying to understand let in the next section we're going to go through various different things that are mentioned in kazal gamarim um midrashim raam so on. And in each one we're going to focus on is this a slam dunk? Does this fit mir perfectly? Is this a very strong question on murix or is it somewhere in between? And let's let's try to let's try to go through one by one. And this we're going to go through 19 points. The number one is right. So the hulen says that the dye is blue like the sky like the sea sky and sapphire. Right. So [snorts] the mir's fist as well. The dye produced a dark blue after exposure to sunlight and and that's a that's a slam dunk that works. Okay, the next one. Right. So the garra says and this is uh I believe yesterday's dal um right its body resembles the sea. Okay. So what does that mean? So the critics of this of the Murix, they say, "Hey, listen. The Murix's body, it's it's whitish, right? If you look at it, it's a it's a white shell, right? And the light brown or or it's definitely doesn't in what way does it look like the sea?" The proponents are saying there's different possibilities. Number one is maybe yam also means seabed. Um not just the water, the seabed. Seabed is brown. Okay. [snorts] Alternatively, the murix is often covered in in like seaweed sea fouling which makes it give it like a greenish seaike exper appearance. But the critics respond to that to that point in two ways in three ways. Number one is they say if you take a look this is fascinating right so there's two garas that talk about the I mean there's there's others but with this regard and it's interesting that the term appears both when it's discussing the which is the the snail or the source the fish whatever it is right its body is similar to the water and then when it talks about the which is the actual it says So we know that that means that the blue is similar to the blue of the water. So to say that means a completely different thing meaning it's similar to the seabed or because it's covered in green you know sea fouling. So it's hard it's it's it's a stretch. I think that's that's an interesting question. And the actual creature is brown. So it's hard to say because of the algae, you know, that that's why that's what they were referring to. And algae is not unique, right? Algae covers everything in the sea. So it's hard to say that the way you're defining the murx is because it has algae on it. So these these are some strong questions on this this gam of dem. Okay. The next thing it says and its physical form resembles a fish. So the critics are saying Murix is a snail. It's not a fish. Doesn't look like one. Right? The counter to that, the proponents are saying, well, if you trace the outline of the Mur shell, it looks like a fish. Okay, it's I think somewhat of a stretch. Um, alternatively, Bria means its creation means it spawns like a fish and the way it reproduces is like a fish. Also somewhat of a stretch, I think. And uh what the critics respond to that is that neither one is really a straightforward interpretation of Rashi or you know most of these points are discussed a little bit more at length in the pamphlet that we put together but the pamphlet is also by design very very brief. Okay the next one it says that the many of us are familiar with this that it's washed ashore once in 70 years and that's what makes it expensive. Now the critics jump on that and they say hey listen the mur is always available right there are no known rear surfacing events we don't know of anything like every 70 years all of a sudden it's coming up but the proponents say that hey listen you know the advas says that the 70ear surfacing was a mass event that only occurred in the bas so you know it's a reasonable seems like a reasonable counterargument to to this point location okay so the garan chabas says that is found between andifa, right? Betweens and so this one is spoton right there. Location is perfect. That's a good one. Okay, number six. So exclusive to Zulan's territory, right? So the migilla tells us that was found in the portion of belonging to Vulan. And by the way, this map is not meant to represent territory. That's just a visual and um the and seems to imply very clearly that it was on the coast that Zullen was along the coast which would make sense right um the critics it's this is an interesting point they say that if you look at the say for Yeshua it seems like did not border the coast so it's not so much it's more of a question of exactly where Zulan's territory was so this I would say is sort of a mixed a mixed bag you really have to understand how to reconcile and the Yeshua and [clears throat] the Gur has a but this one is sort of a mixed bag. Okay. Um here's another spotona proof. The is referred to as hidden treasures of the sand. So the miracle lives on sandy seabeds and sometimes buries itself in the sand. Spot on. Grand slam on that one. Okay, here's this one is a mixed bag or a mixed net. The gar indicates that the was captured using nets. Um the critics would say to that that there's no logical reason to use nets for slowmoving snails while using nets. The proponents say that's actually not the case. That's actually exactly the way that they capture them, right? They use they use wicker baskets. And it's reasonable to assume that if you know a net would would accomplish the same thing as a worker basket. So if anything that seems more of a proof for than against it. Here's a challenge number nine of 19. So catching it on chabas right says catching on is if you do that you transgress. You're trapping on chabas. So the critics are jumping on that right. Gumar says that s doesn't apply to creatures that are easily grabbed without effort. Right? This there's the all different discussions of different kinds of animals um you know different kinds of situations where it's in an enclosure and you could easily grab it. So it's hard to say. I mean the murix barely moves. So how could you say that it's it's considered sud by capturing it. The proponents respond to that. They say well not so fast. You know that the rashi and shanar imply that any creature that needs a net folds under its sud and murk's nails are caught with baskets like we just discussed. So that's you know definitely a it is something which is captured but the the critics respond to that that baskets are commonly used but entirely unnecessary and the organization they offer marine tours or they did at some point um where people actually dive to the shallow ocean floor and pick snails up by hand. So it's hard to this is this is I think a a pretty strong challenge um to the Murix's identification. Okay, this one is a um this is presenting this one as a as a proof for the Murex, right? So the Mar says that immediately after the dies, the quality of the dye deteriorates. Okay, and they would make every effort to try to take out the dye while it was still alive. So this is actually fascinating because experiments show that dye quality severely degrades within about two hours and historical sources also confirmed confirm the importance of processing while it's alive. So this seems like a very very good proof um to to identify it as the critics are responding to that and they're saying yes and no, right? It is a two-hour window and the extraction takes a minute or two. So why are we putting such a huge stress on getting it out while it's alive? Okay. Um, and he says a careful reading of Aristotle and Plenny, I'm not sure how you pronounce that, reveals that their concern was the mur discharging his th upon death, not deterioration of quality, which is interesting. So, it's it's a quote like, you know, somebody quoted me something from Aristotle. I would just take them at face value, but it seems interesting that if you look at the source, it's not it's not so clear-cut. Okay, this one seems like a slam dunk, right? The gar says that there was a cheaper plant-based diet called kala elilan which is indigo the indigo color that was completely identical in color to real and this is a very strong proof where we mentioned this earlier the chemical formula the murix dye is exactly the same and almost an identical color not almost an identical color just as the gar described so this seems like a very good proof okay number 12 of 19 proofs the chemical test so the gummor describes describes a chemical test and this is also something which you know we're covering def [snorts] and the plant basically there's a test that you can do and the plant color elon is going to fade but the kilazin won't right and this is is a very interesting challenge right if you have something which is exactly identical from a chemical makeup how could you possibly create a test that's going to be able to identify the difference between the two right and sim in addition to that right um right so that that that's a challenge the proponents say well not so sat not so fast is if you look into it it's it's you know they have an explanation for that that the plant indigo contains more inderubin making it harder to reduce so it is possible that a test would have identified more okay number 13 [clears throat] says that the gam has senus and bones snails don't have senus and bones. So the critics are saying hey listen doesn't have it. Their opponents are saying well that's you know not everything needs to be so literal. Bones could refer to the shell. Senu refer to the ligaments attaching the snail to its shell. I think that's you know seems seems like a reasonable response. Okay this is a good one. Size and growth dana the medish describes the as having a narctic that grows along with it like a pouch. It seems very much in line with the murix. The external shell grows continuously with the creature. That makes sense. Number 15, the dye needs to be color fast and permanent. Right? So require that the be permanent and color fast. So this is this is also a great proof. The dye produced in the mir is extremely color fast and permanent and um would would be a good fit. Okay. Now we're going to jump into the Rambam. And the Rambam is actually fascinating. So the Ram tells us how do you make right? See he says there are four conditions number one not four conditions for identification um is a dog right it's a fish it color resembles the color of the sea well you know like the the thing it blood is black like ink it's found in yamel right so let's go through each one of these or or some of them so number one is it's It's a dug, right? The murix is not a fish. Simple as that. It's a snail, right? And Kazal and really the Rambam more specifically used the word shave. Um the Rambam uses the word shave in the same context. And if Kalazan was a snail, he would have said shave instead of dag, right? The and the proponents say, well, not maybe shave only applies to land snails. So I did have a conversation with with one of one prominent Taylor author about this and you know I this this uh it didn't seem to be well sourced um to be able to say that it was a speculation which is a reasonable speculation but even so my feeling is like okay but if it's a different creature call it shave dy right not dag dag sounds inappropriate especially if the ramen himself used the word shavevel to describe a snail. Okay. The Rambam writes that its color is black like ink. So Kazal say the Rambam specifically that the the blood is black like ink. Okay. The critics are jumping on this one and they say, "Hey, listen. It starts off clear, goes through color changes to purple to blue, never black." The proponents say, "Well, if you leave it too long, it does turn black." And ancient writers described the Murix D as black. suggested that maybe the Rambam may have relied on Aristotle's description. Uh the critics respond, I don't know about that. You know, if we're describing what it looks like, why are we describing what it looks like when it goes bad? Like if you ask me what color is is, you know, steak, you tell me it's well, it's red. Well, maybe not. Maybe it's black because after it goes bad, it's black. You know, it's a little bit of a harder cell. [snorts] Okay. Well, this one is definitely a proponent. It says the the die gland is contained separately. So this is quot pocket is contained in a separate area. This matches the mur perfectly. The dy mucus is found in the hypo bronchial gland. That's a good one. Two more. Okay. So the med says was hidden. Right. So this one is this one is a big one in the sense of the place the modern day game and I'm sure others they they see this as a conclusive source that okay it's na it's done it's hidden nothing to talk about we're not we're not discussing anything else right it's hidden finished [snorts] the proponent's response is also pretty strong response to that is well um nignnaz is temporary Right. And it's other imply that is theoretically possible said the proofs are not definitive and Mashiach God willing will breed the soy is you know it's a big one. Um and you know I think it's something that that that that's really is really what gave me pause more than anything else. um because you know who's more familiar with all these proofs than he is and uh he seemed convinced about that one but that's what he writes. Okay. And finally, this is the last one says in basically so the critics say listen very clearly that is not existent at the moment and proponents have a very strong counter argument to that and they say listen had and he lived 500 to 800 years after the so obviously his words must have a deeper and more nonliteral meaning. Okay, so those are sort of you know some for some against and going through sort of the the proofs. So the obvious next question is okay big deal just do it right so if it might be the which it sounds like a very very reasonable possibility so we just say and you should wear it like what's the question just wear so I think fundamentally there are three reasons in theory not to meaning I'm not saying not to I'm saying there there were three arguments that would be not to number one is the Arizal warns that we're in kala elon empowers a satan and murix d is chemically identical to the indigo plants So maybe that would be included in empowering the satan. I don't know. Um I don't know much about the but uh possibly. Um the mishabura says that it says it string color has to match a garment. Obviously if it's okay but if it's not that's a problem and I think that the most critical piece really is that even if you assume the mir is correct there are so many different possibilities on how on production methods how many strings how to tie it and so on and so forth that we just don't have a mira about so what do you do like which one do you go with you know it's an interesting point maybe you do all of them you know like I don't know but that was uh you know that that is something that needs to be resolved and just to summarize Um I think Deir's trunculus presents a compelling but contested case. In other words, on one hand we have an incredible amount of evidence geographical, archaeological, chemical, textual from the rishumaras more so than any other candidate in history and it really it's a very impressive case. Um you have to give it to that. On the other hand, there are other things that are pretty challenging like certain gamaras that are really challenging that the the the answers given are not are not so great. The Rambam's four part criteria has challenges and other leading pisk some of the leading ping or astro hankies and others um you know said not to use it. So sporting evidence remaining challenges where does that leave you that much I'm not going to tell you. [snorts] Okay, that leaves us simpleins or us dummies to ask your local Orthodox rabbi or your rebby, you know, or the person that you speak over these matters with and decide how you want to proceed. That's what I take away from this whole interesting conversation, which to be perfectly honest, now is a great opportunity learning to get a bit of a overview of the debate. So, Duben, thank you very very much. Greatly appreciate it. >> All right. Thank you so much for the opportunity. [snorts]