12-27-2017 Kosher Behind Bars

hello and welcome to stargaze monthly webinar held in our main offices in Baltimore Maryland held the last Wednesday of every month at 12 noon eastern I'm your host Ron bites we Goldberg I'm gonna guest today is my man Chris Feld thank you because we're coming on again the you can join us by phone just for the audio at two one eight eight nine five one two zero three passcode twenty twenty pound if you have any questions concerns shila's you can email us at info at star - KO RG or call us for one zero four eight four four one one zero our front desk staff is busy as usual every day answering questions from the kosher community you can see on your left side of your screen right here actually I'm going to change it to the bottom of your screen you can see there's a chat is chat button and we'd like to hear from you if you can you can talk to us if you have any questions or concerns today we're going to speak about kosher behind bars providing kosher food star Ches efforts to provide kosher food for prisoners and some might say I think are the crystal that people who are in prison sometimes they are there for a reason and why we take the effort to provide kosher for them but that's I just want to say the outset that's not our position our position is anyone who wants kosher we are here to provide it for them you know other issues can be dealt with other rahbaniya more different parts of society but we are here if someone request kosher we are here to do our best to provide it at the highest level that's possible you agree with that hundred percent okay so it's not advocating going to see what the kosher food is over there it's not as even good as the airline food we don't think so it's nothing special no comment so let's start with with how you got involved I reconcile with this program which involved in in a big way over the years where did it all begin okay so just a real quick background to this whole story originally I was the kosher food inspector for Baltimore City in Baltimore County and that was before many of these laws were found unconstitutional by courts both new jersey here eventually maryland did you have a badge I had a and I had an actual ID from the state from did you mean when you come in you say and people were shot out of Kurt's valve when I used to come in and spend I do want to add something just just that people should know I was always very fair because we I was also involved in star case certification at that time this is those in the 80s this is in the mid-80s that's when I started here as far as the early 80s and I was the food inspector so I always used to do I had to get people to trust me and the way I got other there were so many other people who were under different artists and I used to come in and check so to get people to trust you that you're not trying to you know just I'll use the word Marshall it's them I had one rule and they knew I was always very fair and very honest if it was a Stargate policy you never got a violation but if I found something that was a strict definitive violation regardless of whether you were a stark a certified facility or whether you are not a Stargate certified facility I would write off the report and send it in to the city or to the county so for example something as stark as malefics and play shake or something with that would happen if I find something like that again it didn't it wasn't common to find but but if that's what that was I want to show people if it's a clearly a kosher rule that's clearly in show Canara and it got written up it was a rectified the only time in the state the city or the county ever went further if it was a serious violation not just a careless violation and if you if you did not fix it so if it was a serious violation like when I found trace chicken in a place they got taken to court that's there's no answer to that that's what the kosher laws were for but if it's just a carelessness you mix by mistake something you didn't realize like we do in our own homes Milka commits with flake got popped with this I'd write the report immediately you know who was removed I would write with what the action was no wonder that babe would but I did it for everybody and that's how I got the trust of the other Avengers I mean if you went into establishments never certify the other agencies okay correct I knew you were cuz you're working for the state City and County I was in camp correct Gnostic okay okay so once I had that so now let me skip so that was in the 80s in 1991 there was a suit brought it's I have a copy of it right here his name was uh it was Cooper and this his name is Richard David Cooper he was an inmate here in Maryland and he brought a a suit against Maryland one of the original early suits that to provide him with kosher food the only kosher food he was able to eat was ever whatever's there an apple or an orange if there was rice crispies milk and he said this is unfair this is not whatever it was so he brought a suit against the Maryland and that's when I got involved I put it up on the screen yes I could see that you mentioned in here in the crystal yes I am and the reason why they came to me but they knew me already as an inspector I was still functioning as inspector we had not to get found the kosher laws as unconstitutional interestingly to note that became unconstitutional by the time I gave a violation to a guy named Borg OD he was a nephew of the famous bar goatee and his bro who's now serving a life sentence for bombings and they're too strong and I started off he had a violation one of his scores and he said who are you rabbi to tell me what to do and the rest is history Wow but anybody getting back to this space unconstitutional in Maryland it became all the places one built on the next first it was New Jersey became on Constitution the Maryland sent us a message getting back to the story here in 1991 this suit was brought against the state and I was no become they were trying to settle it they didn't want to have to go to court and they weren't trying to figure out a way to settle it so I got contacted being I was the inspector of the the city and county somebody mentioned my name and I was brought into the jail not as an inmate but as a consultant and to come in to review and at that time all I did they asked me one thing could you identify everything that we already have that is kosher what do we already have in the house they didn't know what is right now we wanted to serve what we already have whether it's bread butter cheese yogurt I'm not just about fruit what is kosher and that's what I did I went through all their inventory that they had that was prepackaged or whatever it was not nothing to cooking and made a list of what that because a lot of things are kosher kosher from the get-go Cheerios whatever that's what I did right and that was the request that was made and that's all again I did explain to them what the issues were good on them were not knowledge about what kosher was and the end of the story was that it was they didn't understand how you could take kosher stuff and make it not kosher I explained to them some of my first experience inside a Correctional Facility of what goes on there behind the scenes so we went through all the things but at the end all I did for them at that time was identified what Iranian house was 1000% kosher and what they could serve to this individual who was the first person aboard he lost right and at the end he lost his case yes and the end wasn't the judge mots mo Tze postions he decided that there based on a Supreme Court ruling that there is a constitutional thing that people do have to have a kosher and you try your best not kosher religious needs that correctional facilities across the United States must provide for the needs of a religion and in their correctional as long as it does not conflict with some other you no need for so for example security or something like that and they have to have the balance between security needs and the religious needs and at the end the judge mots pass can't see his assessment was based on the amount of food that they could be given it met met the minimum nutritional values and that there's no reason that they have to pay because but then the state was by the way there was a matter of course I have I put up on the screen of course difference was he could get breakfast for $0.50 if you would eat what what was it really there exactly they have to provide it for him it would be between 250 and if I do want to I do want to add just one thing you don't see in that suit and then we'll go right there yeah this the state was ready and willing to give him the full kosher meals one person they said you know what it's not worth the amount the money of litigation we will give you what you want and give them let's say the the meal mark millet even though that was even though that no before they actually litigated it they said you know what if me once I gave my presentation they said you know what it's not worth the amount of money with course for litigation okay let's give Cooper or any Jews a few Jews they had there anybody who wants will give them the the airline meals a little better stuff and even of course much more money but what happened was and this is why they went to litigation the Muslims found out about it and that raised the amount of people from let's say 14 people are making up a number it wasn't that many in those days but to 300 they said he giving to the Jews and give us kosher halal and then they said well it's that that's a budget breaker then they went to court and Cooper continued going to court and they could not settle and at the end judgments judged in favor of the state the food is nutritional enough there's no need to go any further in light of the expense you know he made the shore of the balance so where did it go from there okay from there this is what occurs now years later into that time there was no program here in Maryland whatsoever based on the judgement of moths in favor of the state um comes a candidate O'Malley who actually did win as governor and one of the Robottom have a political show right know that most of fact he had problems just like Trump promised and kept his word as we know that they make Jerusalem the you know to validate that Jews was the capital of the movie embassy Obama to me uh malli had said that to the Jewish people you know to the is that those who were backing him that if he comes in one of the complaints that one of the rabbi's complaint was that there's no program it's time ready it's very bad they can't get any decent country food 2009 all right so that's quite a few years and he gave his word that if he becomes governor he will and convoy he became governor and he sent down and eat it you know that rectum I should say to these people that he wants by Pesach I don't know when the governor gets sworn in whatever it is by Pesach he wants a program in place so they called me again at this time of course different people mr. West who was the head direct of all food service for the whole state a wonderful individual he's now retired very very very cooperative in every situation very serious-minded and at that time the head chaplain here in Baltimore City and involved in the kosher and the end this state was a rabbit Axelrod design desert and he's right now also retired and he gave us a directive not to me to them he wants a kosher program in place O'Malley O'Malley and cowboy him by a by pacer I get called and we literally have to sit down again he didn't say what it is he just said that you got again he did is a budget issue more than what they had just whatever is certified he wants a real program at the same time west mr. West the director had to deal with budget he was gonna cost them more but what can we do so we sat down the three of us and literally from scratch from scratch had to write regulate I never did in my life before it didn't exist not one letter not one word was was written we had to come up with regulations of this new program that doesn't exist so of course I had to make mr. West understand what is the the dishes so that so we came up with first goals of what we're going to try to achieve based on what how I explained to moco sure was so we of course we spoke about the Shalako that a Jew has to cook as then it has to be Jewish cooking the issue of meat and chicken if there's no Jew watching it that's another issue of Buster Simon iron there is whatever it is Shabbos Yom Tov making a long story short all that expects relation to him slowly literally it crystallized that we can't offer meat because they can't have such a problem with a mafia and everything that doesn't work so there's no meat in the program there was no meat what would happen maybe sorry exactly so what happened was they realized that Vishal is anything that's a lot show thermal welcome for those who know were listening anything that would be an issue of visual outcome meaning the criteria that is a problem of Vishal was was have to had to be eliminated anything that was even Shabbos and all that and of course we had to segregate another thing we could have a much gift to meeting and I do want to one more time before I forget whoever's listening this was only a consultation this was not a star case certified it doesn't regret it doesn't meet the standards in Ono because there's not much I get to meet another Axelrod is what we could do and what they were willing to pay for it but but I had to be a logically viable so Robert Axelrod was it was in a sense the rob amok sure he's a fruit Orthodox rabbi he learnt them down to you Shiva's he's now retired and and we came up with the Yeats of an earnest situation in a separate area whatever that system was and we made a lacto-ovo diet which was everything was only dairy anything that was prepared in that kitchen that was under his high school was not an issue of Vishal ahkam because it was fake chicken fake you know the tofu stuff fake meat they had that flavor but all that type of thing everything to do with bugs they used either stuff that was pre checked but that's expensive so instead they simply eliminated it so you had other vegetables cucumbers no Roman exactly so that cucumbers tomatoes everything else that's not a bug issue how did they make sure they use different knives no sensei everything was color-coded I got it to say one thing and this I wanted to so forget how I go would wasted you know the time in every detail okay it is a it is here is the matter of fact to have the original one that was given to me right here to review this was the this was the actual final if they had to actually could see these yellow markings on everything had to go through thee this is what we had originally wrote and this was the final one here also nothing to a kosher they had to deal with the fact of how do you control the people one day yeah one day not today you're Jewish who's not Jewish I gotta tell you mr. West was Annie lui mr. West came up with such great ideas to avoid having just to make this whole program after it you know we directed for those who wanted it so therefore you could only be on it you can only change your religion every two months why do they want to change your religion because they because the food is better if the kosher food is better well it was huh it was better wasn't there something until they until Pesach came and then they all became non-jewish [Laughter] I don't remember I can't tell you numbers wasn't there I can't tell you remember it didn't go by real Jewish necessarily other thing with more people on it then yes absolutely were more fruit you let me tell my West did a couple of things like that he made it like if you found in violation if they if they see you eating a non kosher meal they warned you after three warnings you thrown off the program so it wasn't like a Hefner even if you know and you in jails you get you get you don't get money you get credit so if you work in the kitchen you get so many credits and you can cash in those credits in the commissary to get snacks and things like that if you are in the kosher program they had in the computer that so-and-so is Jewish in the kosher program and you couldn't get beef Jerky's mm-hmm before your credits and they found you doing that you get violation if you go off the program on your own you cannot reopen your own not because of the warnings on your own you get off the program you said you know I'm not Jewish I don't need it hey stop eating tray you can't change your religion back for a year so again the point being I'm just throwing out a couple of things in this thing that was nothing to a kosher I'd have to do with how to control this program just keep controlling everything was color coded and I want to end with one thing I think we should move on the one thing I got to tell you I used to go around with Rob Axelrod and sometimes myself movements the West I used to go into the penitentiary they have separate women separate men's mr. West was literally what was the difference when I come into a facility Starrcade gives a certification on something right where the outsider giving a certification on the inside here these was these regulations that were written it's not a stark a regulation it becomes state regulations so when mr. West came in and he found if I found a mixed-up fork or spoon it's not like okay rabbi okay we're gonna take care of it don't go like that the manager got written up if there if she will if she or he was not instituting this regulations that are on these papers to a tee you have violated like any other regulation the death and that made a major difference in their attitude toward the kosher program so it's a it's a semi coaster it's not really okay but it's not I'll peel off but it's good but that's exactly there we did our V I'm all about are you like super nifflas and mr. West used to take rabbi Axelrod unannounced that's what I was gonna ask you they must go around doesn't he have to sign in lets unbeliev that nobody's okay yeah but you can't change certain things if you're doing something wrong he would find it and and I gotta tell you the kitchen staff didn't know when he was coming is that now the Axelrod would go around the whole state they would actually drive him from from from from what's a call from facility to facility all the way from the West Maryland to the east to the north to the south and he used to call Schuyler something came up he would call me Roberto absolutely we would discuss as many funds after the program but I got to tell you it it definitely had a value yeah where did it go from then after that say after that it became sort of right became more popular and after that what occurred was that we started getting calls from other states who had also suits unfortunately more Jews were you know coming into the correctional programs that are across the country and they were suing for for decent food and states were having suits I don't mention the states and they all came to us but across the country for the west coast of the East Coast and they and they called us trying to come and they wanted to get an idea of this could they heard about this and of course if the state is doing it it must be something value and it's cost-effective they they're trying to they're worried about cost effective and to meet the suit we're not having to overwhelm and litigate and all that so they called us and I clearly told every state that called me I am NOT allowed to this was a paid for and produced by the state of Maryland it does not belong to the starcade and if you if you're interested in getting a copy of this and what it's all about I'd be glad to talk to you but I never spoke to any state until I got permission in this case was mr. West to get permission that I'm allowed to and he always allowed I so if you call West they should call West and if West tells me yes I have permission I'll be glad to share the other states do this so what happened was they went into it and I don't know of any state that did the full thing either they did much less and they didn't weren't willing to do this degree so they did he they did even less than this when they did more or the easiest be the rabbi's of that state who had who had a what were they a interest no had some sort of interaction with with the correctional facility of that state said they want more more may put pressure on me a real a real meeting meaning like those seals bills you get in a you know with liquid because our situation was was all fake meat so you you weren't getting real chicken or real beef you'll getting the you know the vegan you know the fake you know about this in morning star still have a situation in New York like okay they get no sure the the there is one that is that is specifically in upstate New York that and I think it's a smart thing to do that they realize it is much easier to bring if there's any people who are who are particular about kosher it's nothing to be just Orthodox gave me cancer anyone who's really wants a kosher meal there's one one in New York upstate that they have most of the people there and this way if we're doing it anyway let's get everybody in I haven't realized they have a real November real yes to some degree maybe there's not cares it's not like you could your lap today yeah but there is more allowing of the Froome inmates to be involved more in the kitchen because because mostly inmates work the kitchen so in this facility they have the from people working in the kitchen so they can turn on the fires so they're getting real chicken real beef they have manana they have sure room I mean the one place I know they even have a Sparty and the separates party minion versus a Ashkenazi man guys you a question you don't have dancers will be talking here for 20 minutes about about kosher behind bars you don't mention the word prison you say Correctional Facility I want to know what everybody else was lazy alright so is this something is that is that not a nice way of putting it I don't know I just want to call by whether professional International Correctional Facility that's what it says okay so okay is there any that's our involvement so no there's more there's more so now the other involvement now has become along the so besides we were involved in the program and involved in helping other states have approached us and things like that now on a regular basis I'm in contact with inmates either by mail or by reaching out can you help us they are not getting in their state or in their remember we're not know about these states have something New York State has something but don't think across the whole country every penitentiary in Nebraska you know has it has a kosher program so yesterday context so for example let me just read you one so this is a person reaching out now you should know that they're not allowed to that all letters are read going in and going back right by the line whoever it is you have to understand that and now they have email so I am never allowed to directly respond it goes through a program called core links dot-com you have to make a email address it goes to them and then there's inmate can access it there and again now they are meeting electronic mail so so I asked you before if you could print out some of those emails and you explained to me that after I think two weeks it gets it guess it's not an email like your regular desktop you're not going to the system either I copy and paste and save it which I have on I haven't nails that they do weaken some of them some that makes that means about tires before your time so we'd correspondent about tires and I put that good I said one person who should write he should write he's a real you know you ship a guy and I and he he really has good terms of his own his own cuz he's like like the rough because he's a means a lot of Jews there who are not they're Jewish but they're not my Tshuma and he he goes ahead and he sends me some of them tomorrow tires and I told him I have a name for your okay for your safer you should call to safer Mattie Asura why why my test room because he writes he goes when he sits and he learns it takes him away uh-huh he feels like he's not there when he's sitting and then learned you know he did whatever he did and continuous ed contain so I had that's what they Baskin has to be in but the tire if a him takes him away so I said to that church quote say from aunty our storm it's the one thing it is not that you from there sir and unfortunately he's uh you know let me just read you this is ie that sent me just an example right okay he writes a Shalom I'm writing to today because here at this Correctional Facility I need some assistance I really need he writes help really we are having a major issue with what and how they are serving those our kosher meals not to mention where they prepare them as well for breakfast we get listen to what they get if they don't have any decent program we get dry cereal two teaspoons of peanut butter two packets of jelly one packet of graham crackers the searly peanut butter are not in separate sealed containers all the items I mentioned above I put into a clamshell style styrofoam tray and served us within the general population with the not kosher lunch is hardly any difference with the exception that instead of dry cereal we get some sort of vegetable either a tomato a cucumber radish or something like that a few of them so what do these complain about the breakfast you know he says other things nobody could be kosher he's asking to help us to give it a program so I keep reading a little over dinner and supper is even worse for this meal we get a vegetable same as lunch three slices of bread four packets of jelly packets of grant of graham crackers and two scoops of cottage cheese so no is this one everybody gets it just the kosher the kosher sort of the coach or coach you see that's because he can't eat the rest I see the regular people getting bees and check in on this is what he's good so this program here I want to say which Correctional Facility this is is he had nothing so he asked me if we can get involved and help him I'm not finishing the whole thing getting about others right I'll just read one more did that go anywhere I just thought in a minute I'll just read one more and that they'll be it just in a sample we have a question here go it is it josh is asking it made seven field the critical being convicted criminals for requesting high standards of conscience that's what we mentioned that to begin yes but that's not our whether they do and they don't it's not our position to give them you criticize them we feel that our job is to provide kosher if they ask but it's also I think a little bit more than that if I may say ultimately people do make mistakes and people have to have to face the consequence of their mistakes I don't think because a person needs a whoreo eyes somehow falters and fail to take monetary issues and that's why you're in jail because they whatever that may be and suddenly to say that just because you fault in one area it doesn't mean you there's suddenly every rights of you and the Supreme Court has validated that that you have them just because you go to jail doesn't mean you have its bottom a little everything else it can't be religious anymore you have no rights to pray so culture it for us is religion and therefore and then everyone has understood that it's not a diet fat it's not part of you know I want to lose weight or whatever it is and therefore it takes on a religious and if I have a right to but you're right it's it's not so simple I mean I've heard I've heard others in the correctional facilities as I mentioned you once who did comment on that that they find it hypocritical but that's how I answer them and they understand I'm sure the people that have mentioned that are not perfect either anyway this person wrote to me my name is so-and-so I'm 73 year old Orthodox Jew this one is tight yes I'm incarcerated within the correctional facility of a certain state and I've been fighting for years to receive kosher meals this person is 73 years old finally I found a truly outstanding compassionate attorney who's willing to file a federal litigation on my behalf and he goes on and on and on I don't want to read the whole thing he's asking me could us be able to be expert his attorney call us and so on and so forth and could he help to us to get that done you know I answered to one of them this is the same idea and this is what I wrote this is a sample of what I write back I like that I in receipt of your letter dated so-and-so in did you express or gain concern of whether your meals are kosher and so on and so forth and but I say at the end in your letter you request that I assist you in the demo correcting this problem I'm making an unannounced inspections as well as asking me to make an inspection this one will ask me can we get involved it's the same idea generally I cannot being at the starcade that's a good I cannot being at the starcade does not have an authority in your state and this right right back I can I would be glad to help you to come in but I have no authority in your place if somehow you can convince the authorities to allow me to come in I'd be glad to respond you need someone to advocate so someone has to advocate and ask me I will not go to the state and and some of that you have to go to through the channels if they call me I'd be glad and it has happened where post I have been asked to come in and to be at meetings oh I've had many times of how it could be because there have been some issues and some Corrections to the program even in Maryland and I've been at a round table as big as this full of people and I've given even to our orientations and to the to staff of how to do the program so I I cannot go any without getting to do if somebody calls us and we will help and it's always has a consultation not as any of course a Starrcade person Josh wants to ask are there non-jews there requests kosher because they think it's better food I think we said that before our that's what you mentioned mr. West and that's what miss aware that was to weed out right without you can't change your religion every I wanted to make sure since it cost more that it's only being directed to those who are truly Jewish now he did not if you say you're Jewish and so you have to sign a paper there's a form they're not going to go ahead and check your your hair anything like that but if you say you're Jewish you will be getting this food for two months so just be aware and you sign your name on that I told you it all those people the first year who got better food pace up they all dropped up when they saw Pesach me and once you drop back you weren't allowed to become Jewish again for a year you're the one supposed to mention that there is an organization has a pen pal program for Jewish inmates and he puts up the correct the the website there Moshe s is there a federal law mandating to give kosher food for religious reasons that's what we're talking about so we've said that so either the Supreme Court has had a cases of religious needs and that is what all the other courts have been basing the the kosher part all sort of like a balance you're explaining right once the Supreme Court Baskin I don't member the name of but they all quote this one case Turner Turner great the Turner case and the Supreme Court clearly said in general that that inmates have a right to the - that their religious needs to be properly addressed as long as they're in a balance with the needs of security and cost and whatever they just said that on concept so once that Supreme Court said that all the other courts have said they understood that kosher food falls under that because it is a religious need and now they need to work out the practical but I gotta tell you that most courts so far I looked at all the different states that I dealt with in the end most courts ninety-nine percent felt that the amount of food that was that was available already as kosher in the program because as you know and I know from our experience at the starcade and our Dane age when I first started to starcade in there in you know 33 years ago I had to schlep food with me there is not a place in United States when you went to prison no not this prison but I used to go around the country you know the country when I went to Alamosa Colorado for sheath or something this would you have in Alamosa Colorado there's nothing right but today it's all available there's no you can't starve you go into any supermarket anywhere in the world read everything rapido sure jelly maybe not hope you stroll that type of thing but the posse stroll but kosher you know let me ask you some of these inmates also consult you on whole affections wrestler right like what kind of so the shot others the problem is is this is the problem is that inmates even though they don't have access to email and they have access to books like those who are litigating for whatever reason you know appeals and things like that that access they have books for general entertainment reading purposes but they do not have access to the Internet you're not giving Internet access so any shila's that they come up so most common question I get from inmates are kosher is this kosher or not we see the product in the kitchen I have a symbol it no symbol is there something I recognize mostly they don't have a symbol is this something needs a symbol is this cereal kosher is that something new that comes up can they want to expand what they can eat so that's the most common question I get all the questions I get is more of other things that they that they don't know what to do how logic things so it would be for example one person sent me recently he had moved to a new correctional facility and needed and he went from one correctional facility to another not from the outside in from inside to another place he didn't know what does mine aids Fela work so he needed modern Fela to know what's the early because especially before Young's if they wanted to dive in early whatever it was that he had a group of eating there and I sent him a whole thing I actually had to write because I can't write Grif there's not a it's not like a regular email and to physically write a whole thing of his mana for him things like that are the ones that could be shila's on they had shadows on Shabbos Hill the Shabbos what what the the going can do for them to reheat food how they should leave it didn't have farm is from their lab the there's a there's a that was not the Olive Institute does a great work the Olive Institute does a great work for all the either should either ship never the addition of shamans that are in the in the prison system of providing with them I know recently in one place I get an email from a prisoner from a in meant that he they got him a safe at IRA to be able to Lane that's an unusual thing to get us a New York is very sensitively there's so many GE tting there I told you if you can have two anonymous party in there okay so you get already what you're talking I mean they understand so you're talking about outside you exactly magic return imagine they got a safe at era I'm making up a place in Nebraska not to get into what they're not familiar with this madman thank dear so the fact that they had things like that on I remember one thing that he didn't have a real minion see but he wanted to keep that that the asthma Shila he wanted to keep that feeling and keep the people the brand you know and some people were not from it in a year from then a year later he quit he sends me an email they got them more from you know meaning the leash our shop is putting on tefillin and he I said to him there is no restriction to lane from the tire if you don't have a minion just take out the tire and the partial for them you know you know I need you our way just read the portion just want me process don't make don't don't don't bring up all this it's not me sir so things like that you know they don't know came every shiny Louis you know where it's not just food styluses halacha child conference car has a little safe they're called enforcer for soldiers who are me yeah and you're right a lot of those child was a lot of shots are things the things that are difficult circumstances correct would be applicable to the situation it's about two percent motion wants to know why there's still cases about receiving kosher food if the supreme court or the courts have have ruled that they are allowed to answer like you said it has to be balanced so the problem is is that any case any case where there's a an issue going on that the moisture is asking about it's because they don't want to keep eating cottage cheese I don't want they're just having just bread I want chicken I want beef you know how much can you eat this yes maybe how much payment I don't you have the state you know when I was dealing with mr. West on this thing there was a nutritionist as part of the thing it has to meet nutritional value but you know a person who's a vegan is not eating meat you can't say that they are unhealthy and that's their attitude vegans are not he gets in but some people and they medaka want no meat no chicken so therefore in the state's mind is why should have to pay for chicken and meat as long as its nutritional nutritionally wholesome and healthy but I have to give you a chicken at me and that's why usually that's with little bites off Josh wants to know could they be discriminated against if they openly act Jewish they're prisoners I mean I have I have from all my experiences of years going back years now the I'm not telling you that there has not been discrimination there has been severe discrimination more covertly then overtly they just make it difficult I'll give you an example I know one one inmate was complaining severely loose he's up from guy what does he do all day and he wrote in his email to me everyone else is watching TV I'm not not interested in watching TV everyone's playing cards I'm I don't want to play cards I want to learn I want to Dobbin whatever he felt was his in the tion of it ok so what do you care if I go into the all-purpose room quiet where they where they have them in yawning if we want to spend an extra hour there why and so when I know for a fact when he got moved to a different facility they had this gets controlled by the head a chaplain see so the first place where he was there's no I don't know how they choose who's the head chaplain head chaplain is the head chaplain overall the chaplains but that pettersson that person it's obviously something up denomination this particular had chaplain of this particular correctional facility was someone who wasn't Jewish I don't want to say necessarily who it was what religion he was but one that is not very friendly to Judaism and and he felt that he purposely made everything difficult no accommodation if for example they felt that the constant nothing was accessible nothing available if you're given the twenty five minutes the Dobbin but just say that's that's the schedule on your on the clock 24 26 minutes he would come and get you out there's an other facility where he lived we was for a while a chaplain who was a friendly person toward toward Judaism he himself was not Jewish but he was friendly and open and a more fundamentalist Christian he was very what can I do for you nothing I was staying up an hour what other examples one other example pace uh you know and I know everybody knows that pace up you cannot start a real sailor until it's mama Sh Jason now normally 830 let's say it's let's say it's 8:30 approximately even if you've over forty two minutes whatever it is they have to skin you know 8:30 Supper's been over already who knows how long ago everyone's already in their cell let me go to sleep it's over the days over if anything accommodation is not just that accommodation to go piss almost midnight so this guy wouldn't do anything well so he refused he would take his food back and make a seder in his cell he can't even know he would take his matzo matzah they provide him he take his matzah take his food and take it back to the cell and when it was time to eat he did yeah no choice gonna get you more knots the regular no whatever whatever they like I don't know look at how that works but I'll again the offensive who helps a lot in this area but the other other place they made a combination for the Eden it was a dominated them they even let them do in this other place beer Hammad's just do the beer comments with with control they outside in the field they let old he can go out there and do beer comments so you're saying a lot depends on your charger so the just answer is this question there is a question about the hypocrisy which we do I know I do want to mention just a couple of points there because I'm sure if I could people asked what brother do you make if you see someone who came out of prison you make it broke on him the two possibilities why don't we be chef younger because you're happy to see him you haven't seen him in 30 days though there would be Macaulay Mason whatever here yeah so the idea of Macaulay Mason is because if you see someone you haven't seen some of the year you've passed by mercy on Yom Kippur and now you saw them there so a lot like there's brought down a lot of it there's a broth of my Mason however the post can say for instance the Venge guy says he never heard of anyone making this brothel even without shame or malice at all and he's wondering why is it is because he thinks people when you make him hi Mason they feel sort of uncomfortable right was that was difficult so that Braco is not we don't make especially since you know that the person is alive even if you haven't talked to him had they been the problem something would have happened you would have heard with the communications today so there's not that broth has not been but chef you know you could ask do you make a broccoli chef young you haven't seen someone in 30 days so the post can discuss a couple reasons why in general you see a friend after 30 days why don't you make that broke up why don't we do it this brought down in Omaha and the reason that they say is because people will feel sort of pushed to say let's say I'm not really that friendly with you and I haven't seen you in 30 days correct and now so that you will feel insulted so that's why we don't generate the Bronco but in the case the post can do say you Chevy lady and other folks can say that if it's a really unusual case the person has been really out of touch and it's really unusual you can't make a Chevy Emma so if you really person has been away in prison like there could be a strong a walking basis to make it only one you see him mich Lamas almond his children lived in nothing Belgium and he hardly ever saw them when he would see them you want to make a brothel you don't really make this prophecy we take a fruit right so I see that we're discussing again yeah you know again I want to repeat this contact you want to hit one yeah again I have read so many emails from so many inmates and letters that I've received you know a person as we all know the thing called the wake up call I don't think again that is our place to judge at least this one in Akutan what trauma person to do whatever they did whether it was in terms of money or any other entire that it made it might have been ultimately ultimately now they have to face the thing and there's consequences to it but I gotta tell you from the from the letters that I've read if you anyone thinks here they're having a wonderful time and even the kosher food that's given to them is something of you know they're there in Club Med or anything like that and trust me there their lives are right now ruined they have not happy in that sense they're trying to do the best of what they can and I think that we have to realize that even getting any decent type of kosher food but for them is some some at least relevant for them it gives them some level of Ruach and some level of humanity at least humanity to feel something it's bad enough that they are there trust me they get they're not feeling they're not on seventh heaven so this is an important thing it's bad enough that they're punished for what they are punished for kosher is a very vital part of our whole besides our religion daily existence and I think it's an important thing to try to provide them to the best of our ability what within I can't override the system you know ultimately they're in control the department corrections but at the same time to try to work with them and try to convince them to give them his best kosher as possible okay well said on that point we will end the webinar I want to thank you everyone for joining with us and thank you because for having me it's very interesting to hear about all the you know the details of it and if you want to see the replay the archives are available on our website Star - gay orgy or on Vimeo search for stark a kosher we just could just give us some time to put this webinar up there but you can see the previous ones last month we we talked about the oldest Shabbos lights that are out there Shabbos lights and such gadgets and and hope that you find those interesting if you have any questions or concerns you can email us and info at star - k dot orgy or call us for one zero four four four one one zero thank you very much have a Chapman and miss Roza scene for your technical assistance and we look forward to seeing you next time thank you good