11-30-2011 STAR-K Discusses Possible Halachic Issues Regarding Computers

hello and welcome to Stark's monthly webinar we're here in Star offices in Baltimore Maryland I'm Rabbi Goldberg this is M Frankl and this class is held on the last Wednesday of every month at at uh noon and uh we want to thank rev Steam for doing the technical work and getting us set up so today's topic we called it cyber Wednesday and you're not going to find any good deals on uh on your laptops over here you're not going to find any USB drives or any monitors or anything for sale but we do have uh we do have Torah for you uh and we're going to discuss computer related questions computer related Childers as you saw on the email if you can't if you know someone who can't make it to this class uh the classes are archived at kosher classes. org k h r ces.org and you can find them over there in a couple days and uh we wanted to to discuss some of the computer related questions that come up in the Modern Age and we asked Rabbi Mor Frankle who's the head of our H Institute Rabbi Frankle answers questions here at the star not only about kasas not only about the kosher world but also about any other questions that may come your that may come your way you're welcome to submit them to Rabbi Frank at what is it star- k.org rabert Frankle is also the assistant Rabbi at the a good of of parkk heights B of of Baltimore and thank you and uh and so we're honored to have you back rert Franco um so let's let's uh and remember that you can chat with us if you're joining us by computer you can chat with us uh on the on the left side of your screen is a large chat box you can change the font or the language there's some tools there for you to do that and we appreciate your your input and we want to uh to hear from you so let's start with one of the questions here oh actually re Frankle I wanted to mention because I don't think we can have any discussion serious discussion about using computers without mention mentioning some of the pitfalls that are involved in computers and the need for people to have appropriate filtering um uh monitoring and so on every day and when we start illers in the morning we ask should not put us in situations of being tested person meant to avoid situations where they even if they're going to pass the test they're going to not do something which is wrong person should avoid putting in those situations in the first place computers have noos a person can get a person might well be able to not fall into those nness but certainly a person should not put themselves in those situations at all the person should have a filter on their computer um so that they won't so that so that they won't have the of looking at anything inappropriate and um there are other there are other uh Technologies out there but certainly the very least person should have filter right the least of filter and some monitoring to speak up a little bit um okay we're being asked to speak up so we put change the microphone thank you for the uh thank you for the feedback um there you know a person needs a filter for themselves uh so that they don't see anything inappropriate they don't go to a website that they shouldn't be going to um one thing that I think doesn't get a lot of uh uh discussion that I think is important is an advertisement filter because if you could be on a site that is innocuous relatively but the advertisements on it are not uh in the spirit of the Torah and there are gadgets that would uh take care of that I think that that's an important thing that's that's suddenly a problem with the computers that uh even without you doing anything people send you the things which are not appropriate to see so soly can avoid that and it's almost impossible to for a person to be without uh access to the internet nowadays if a person is able to do that so so that's good if they can but uh you can't buy an airline ticket almost and government agencies you want to make a an appointment or business uh certainly so it's it's it's something that is is is uh becoming a real necessity the person must absolutely take real precautions uh before getting involved um Zev is saying that ad block plus add-on for Firefox goes a long way although it doesn't block everything okay that's good information I have K9 it's it's a free program it doesn't cost anything right K9 is a filtering program fil program which is free which is free and I use that as well and and it blocks uh it blocks a lot of this sites uh that should be blocked but that's it's it's there's a lot to talk about that and we just wanted to to mention that at the beginning so let's talk about one of the questions that we raised which is May one use another person's WiFi so we're not going to explain what Wii is that's that's Z you if you want afterwards you can give a we're assuming that everyone here probably knows the Wi-Fi if you're able to join us like this by web so so is it permitted for a person to use uh to latch on he turns on his laptop he's somewhere where it is um it is there is an open uh Wi-Fi someone else did not lock it down and he's able to access the internet using someone else's Wi-Fi is that is that a problem so before before we before asking a person um who has before asking a person who has knowledge and expertise in Jewish law I think a person would really have to ask a person who has expertise in American law a person should keep the laws of the country that they live in so I can't I can't address that I don't have I don't have knowledge about that whether or not it's legal or illegal I I was reading up a little bit it seems not to be um necessarily uh codified yet in in in American law because it's so new like there's not a lot of cases where people were uh arrested or charged with using someone else's Wi-Fi to know whether or not it would be a problem but but yes you have to first determine whether or not it is legal or not setting that aside assuming that that's not an issue so then the question would be what does Hal have to say about it so you are ultimately taking something from someone else without asking them the question is can you assume that they don't mind or do you have to do you have to be concerned that they might mind um it's hard to know but I would think that there are um a couple of reasons why person why be you know there's certainly AR arguable that people don't mind the first thing is that if the person does mind he could make his Wi-Fi signal not available to the public is not a hard thing to do um to it so um the fact that he didn't do that didn't make it take any steps to do that seems to seems to already tell us that he's not that concerned about it secondly um it might not affect him at all if if a person is going to do something on on the Wi-Fi which is going to slow down the computer of the person who's who who who has it so that person might very well mind if things are going to work slower for him but if a person is doing things doesn't noticeably slow it down so then it could well be that the person doesn't mind um so if he's trying to to download a large file pictures pictures or videos that uh we would we would we would probably say that that should not be done right that we're pretty certain but whether or not you can just check uh email and email can be very how many kilobytes is average emails have it doesn't would the other person notice that that if there's no pictures in it then the other person would not notice that anything was was going on you he doesn't lose anything and um he could stop it he's not interested in stopping it it could very well be that uh that you're not really encroaching on him so we so we would say probably it's going to be all right as long as it's legal and it doesn't slow him down and it doesn't slow him down that's that's our uh that's our take on it um someone seems to be having trouble with it um okay so Zev over here on on the uh on the uh chat points out a couple things that we did it's probably illegal okay that's I mean if it is then then you shouldn't do it if the host is using it when you log onto it may slow down connection okay we deal with that if you do something inappropriate it may be traced to him and uh and he will have to deal with it and don't do something inappropriate okay well if you have the filters that we talked about at the beginning then you wouldn't do anything inappropriate uh so so that that shouldn't be uh a problem there actually I was looking at a little there are people who want you to use their their Wi-Fi and they there is some site somewhere where you can go to and see where are free Spots I'm not talking about you know business but there are people who have Wi-Fi and they're willing to let other people use it and there's some group of people who are out there doing this uh you know doing letting other people use it okay so let's go to the something point it out you can also get your own you know rather than uh you know it's not it's not that uh it's not that uh that difficult to get your own and solve this whole issue uh if you get your own then it would be fine but a lot of times you you're in a place right you're traveling I mean on a constant basis I would think you know if you're doing it all the time right I wouldn't think that would be right if you're using your neighbor's Wi-Fi on a constant basis without asking him without asking first of all you're going to be sto slowing him down at some point because you're going to be doing more than just downloading text emails right uh and that it's going to affect him that in that way it wouldn't be it wouldn't be right if I drive by shopping mall 2 a.m. you use a store's open wi-fi that might be 100% no since I'm not bothering or affecting the store's Wi-Fi certainly certainly they have open wi-fi so then they it's open they the store other words the only reason why you may not be able to use it if it's an individual maybe he doesn't know how to lock it down but in the store when it's open you know they want their customers to use service they're providing they know that it's open and they know that it doesn't stop at the at the door's Edge so I would think that that wouldn't be a problem um okay let's go to another Alba is asking members of our synagogue here in Spain live all over the country to count up of Minion what is your opinion about counting persons who join us the Skype before Shabbat begins okay let's leave out the Sha the sh Shabbat question uh Ze there's a comment for you re there's a comment for you here um what is your opinion about counting persons who who join via Scotch let's say let's say you want you need 10 people 10 men for a minion what about if the 10 men are not in the same place and they're going to join via computer this is a solution for people who live in places that don't have a minion um a minion needs 10 men in the same room so if you only if if you don't have that if you're just having people just di in then everyone could just call into call call in every day and uh you know so we need we need the the bodies the bodies that are there engender a certain amount of kadha of Holiness of the jewi people together uh it's not just the fact that everybody can see each other when they're in the same room but rather that God rests his presence on the people when they're in the same room and I don't know how willing God is to rest his presence on a Skype Skype conversation over over computer so what about let's say like this um what if what if you're if your the question that could be raised is if you're joining a minion there is already going on in the aura of Baltimore at 7:30 a.m. and you are not able to make it not you Robie Frankle because I know you're there but a person is not able to make it and uh and they uh they just join is there any benefit to them turning on their Skype and and and listening to daving and daving praying daving at the same time as as as the minion so it's it's something which contemporary post discuss I don't I don't there doesn't seem to be a complete consensus on the issue but revera Fon has a CH about a woman who's uh was in hospital and um she couldn't she she wanted to say her half dollar after after you know and she couldn't she couldn't go and the question she couldn't come there was no one there to make half dollar for her and the question was is there any point or any value in doing it over the telephone and rosha says it's not so play but you got nothing to lose that he said he thinks that it could well be that it works and U sudden you got nothing to lose and he feels that the person he says MOA says a person can she can answer on me it's not uh you know there's again there's nothing to lose so if a person's really stuck person person I don't think a person has anything to lose by doing that um as long as it's not going to you know distract him or anything like that so it would be the it would be the same as answering by telephone but it's but it's also important that it's not clear that it does work either that a person could go to should go absolutely should go but I want to point out that getting back to the connections um depends how good your your your web connection is uh if if you're on a telephone basically it's Split Second that you're hearing when they when they finish uh the BR you're you're hearing it right when they're finishing it and you're answering aain so be can be connected to that BR but if you're on a web and there's a delay like for instance you're on a webinar and the connection is not so great then there might be a couple seconds delay conceivably is that right Z it's almost always a delay it's almost always how much is the delay keep talking I mean if if it's going to be more than two second delay then You' have a problem because you're not really answering directly the uh the BR so then you have then you have a problem person if a person certainly I think everyone agrees that if a person just uh plays a recording of something which is not which is not at all live that there's no you can't answer you can't doesn't do anything there's no there's no reason to answer on me there's nothing to gain because it's not a real person speaking it's just a recording so I've had that when watching uh from time to time watching my wedding video right right and they make the the blessings and you have when you have to hold yourself back from the habit of answering aain to that blessing because it's not it's just a recording person's not IDE not meant to say a person's not meant to say a mean to nothing just like that so then a person should avoid that the other thing I would point out is that if you are joining a minion by by web so then you have an advantage uh not not an advantage to being there if you're being there that's obviously uh the best but you it's better than not doing that at all because then you are joining a minion at the time that they are daving so there is a a benefit to to davening at the same time as a minion is daving so if if you are with them so you at least have it that you're at the same time so for I mean this is true even if you're not on the web right if you're home and you know that there's a 10:00 Marv and you can't make it so you're still ding at 10:00 so here too if you're with them so at least you benefit in in that way but it's not a substitute for being there right and it's also it's questionable whether the the synagogue wants wants some some something in their in their building like recording everything that goes on um you know that's that the right well a lot of the a lot of a lot of the synagogues have it anyway with the security video not audio right that could be let's take some of the some of the questions here uh you can't sayain if you're a large distance from a sh even if you can't actually hear it because of the defilement in between so that's an issue not that's debatable that is debatable again as I said with mosha in the TR does not seem to be concerned about that there are some poim who are concerned about that right and the reason that that this would work to answer is the the source for that in the gamar I believe would be the gamar in Bros where the tal speaks about uh in Alexandria in in Egypt when there was such such such large congregations that you could not hear at all what the kazin was saying and in order to know where they were up to they would wave the the flags to tell you that they got to the next blessing and everybody would see the flag they would know where they were up to and then they would answer ohen even though they didn't actually hear it so even if we don't consider the computer or the telephone to be an actual hearing but it is true that at that point I know they got to that blessing assuming that there's no delay and that would be the thinking that you could answer amen right but again at least there they were under the same roof in the same room so apart from the apart from the hearing at least they were phally physically present so that would be the distinction right right over here if you're not physically present Tim but you're not really part of dominion this is also a problem at where the and cannot hear theart from Over the sound system that's a very interesting point there's been i' I've I've seen discussion about this as well there are those who have pointed this out and are concerned about it the alternative argument is that generally the person who is saying Thea is standing right next to them the microphone is necessary for the sounds for so that everyone in the whole Hall can hear but generally the the the they they they're not just hearing the microphone they're actually hearing the person who's standing right next to them speak as well so um it does not it's not necessarily U taken I don't think we can take for granted that the fact that there's a microphone there overrides the fact that he's also speaking um you know that at least the custom seems to be that we assume that the they can they can hear him directly as well and that it's not a problem occasionally there are times where you'll see that the person who who uh who's the you know the person who's arranging the wedding saying the blessings he might move away the microphone for this reason but most rers do not seem to be concerned about it just as an as side I can see the this computer provides us with some statistics of where people are joining us from so I feel you might find that interesting um Mo most of the participants are on the East Coast as you might gather there are some in uh the uh the Midwest it looks like uh uh uh some on the west coast then we have a couple people in Europe and we have a couple of people in Israel so uh we want to thank you very much for for joining us today okay uh let's see okay this last question someone on the telephone that's what you mentioned before that it doesn't really work it's not it's not clear that it works it's not clear it's better if if there's no other way it's a last resort right Last Resort it really uh uh is is only a situation where there's absolutely nobody around but most of the time you can find somebody to do or you should arrange they can do it themselves AR not really something person should do unless unless desperate right okay let's go to another question I see Rabbi Frankl where no way we're going to get through all these questions that we let come back was very yes absolutely it was very uh it was a wide range over here can a webcam be used for of okay so just the background for that question is a um a requirement set up or an obligation set up by the rabbis many many many years ago that a Jew needs to see the milking of an animal in order that it should be considered kosher so yes I'm sorry so you know in that in that discussion the says that it's true that the Jew has to be watching but it says that if if he can only see what's going on with when he stands up and when he sits down he can't see that's still sufficient even if he's sitting because since he could get up at every moment and he can see what's going on so the person who's miling the cow the nonu knows that he may be being watched and therefore that's sufficient to make it that way that that that we uh we're not concerned anymore that he's going to do anything um you know use the wrong so it would be okay to have the uh to have the webcam then me meaning it would be considered like somebody is is is watching even though obviously nobody's watching 24 hours a day uh because you know doing something else as long as people maybe as long as the person who's miling thinks that people are knows that people may be watching it shouldn't be any worse than the man who's sitting down who's not watching at all and he doesn't see what's going on the fact that he may stand up seems to be sufficient we but in Israel they do use that uh and I think the raban in Israel uses that and others use that for for yourself but with star k doesn't rely on that I think that do you know I think the stock is reasoning is that there there it that when a person's watching so a person who stands up he can scan the whole area you never know what he's the person there doesn't know what he's going to look at a camera it does it does it does transmit the pictures but it's it's transmits to the pictures of that area that it's that it's uh focused at if the person just moves out of camera range then he can do whatever he wants well if you had 20 cameras and possibly but that's not but that's already prohibitively expensive so I think that's a problem that's very easy to unless and you know people people are much harder to fool them cameras that's uh if you have a person there then then he's there and everybody can see that he's there a camera uh would be would be possibly easier to fool uh says thata uses cameras in addition to that's good have both I wonder uh I wonder what they so what and which way do they how do they use a camera as an adjunct what what purpose do they other words why do they need both that's what I would wonder they have they have M there on site and then they also have a camera just in case Mash misses something is that it someone's being mash the mash are they watching over the mash okay all right um and and this is a question in in in in other areas of the kosher world not only but can you use in a restaurant can you use a camera to see that nothing is being uh brought in and and so on and again our B basic policy is not to do that because uh we're just afraid that the the cameras can be fooled somehow person can person can circumvent you know that technology can be easier circumvented here he says that they use it for monitoring as well to review after shabas that nothing forbidden took place VI the tapes on notab interesting we we did have one situation that came up remember this RAB Frankle recently that uh uh one of somebody called us and claimed that uh he was in one of our our facil our um establishments and a customer came in and asked the people behind the counter for something that wasn't kosher asked them to provide something that wasn't kosher and uh it was it was an odd thing and we weren't sure exactly what happened but the rabbi here in the office went back and that that place did have security tapes he went to look at the tapes and he determined he went through weeks and weeks of tape till he found that incident and it was determined that nothing joking it was joking the person who asked for the the non- kosher would be like walking into a uh what into a um a kosher meat store and saying do you have the bacon you know can I have my bacon obviously there's no my milk I have my jar of milk but uh so sometimes they did and nothing really happened over there so it was fine but we useful it was useful it was useful but we didn't we didn't it wasn't set up for for kosher uh uh issues it was just the the store had their own security camera that we were able to look at how about using a telephone for p to light the oven okay well I know some of the organizations do that even for for Bish Isel for creating a Jewish Cooking they use a telephone way that it works is is the uh the system at the factory is off until you dial in until the Mas dials in at the appropriate time and he puts in his code and then he presses pound and when he does that at that point the oven goes on and so those agencies allow it consider that to be his deed it's no different than if he's standing there and he flips on on the switch so they they hold that that's okay but the star K's opinion is right the star doesn't rely on that um if a person I mean a person can eat such Foods it's it's it's that's the St holds but that's not an ideal solution not ideal um I think RAB hman holds that it's it's too far removed right from the actual it's causative right it says there in in the in the there that that a Jew meant to physically like the flight flame if he just causes it to happen it works if he it works but it's not ideal it's not it's not it's a is not can an MRI or scan help to check uh for for trfa MRI in general we don't you know the gar says there are 18 things which make an animal Traer we don't most of them are not common and we don't check for them we only check for the lungs and it's hard the lungs you know I don't think that uh scan wouldn't help dependent on on the person adhesions on how it feels if it comes apart a person with experience uh there's some things that cannot be duplicated by a machine yet yes yet uh it was another 20 years in uh here Rick says the kosher butcher is located within a Kroger store in Columbus I worked there periodically as a Mas people who don't know kosher ask for all kinds of non- kosher we simply Direct to other departments a stranger asking means nothing well that's that's that's a Koger store which also has ingredients in the store we were talking about a store which only only SS C so it's a little difference but uh you're right people people people a lot of people are clueless right okay so I think the short answer is can a webcam be used for the short answer is uh that it it uh might be able to be used but that the Stark doesn't doesn't do that let's take another one just jumping to another topic um May one email someone in a different time zone where chabis it is already Saturday in that time zone and for me it's not yet shabas or it was shabas it's it's after shabus so is that permitted well if if the if the if if there's a concern that the person on the other end is actually going to do something is going to read it they might read it and they might click on it or so then then a person shouldn't do that because you're possibly causing someone else to you know not keep showers properly but other than that if it's not that it's just going to a machine on the other end so there's debate about about this again there isn't complete consensus but um many many many person can feel that that that's fine because you know when when we're judging a person's keeping shabas it's judged based on where the person who's doing the actions is and as long as you know he's doing actions on Friday and you know what what that causes countries is not is not really uh is not it's not really a you know a Breaking of his of his Shas right so this question is not so new because it came up years ago with faxing you would fax somebody on Friday and where where was ready shabas over there faxing is a little a little bit worse because it makes noise and it might be noticeable on the other end and if that's the case you should be avoid it in general it's not it's there isn't complete consensus among among the person so a person shouldn't do it if it's not necess but many but if person has some pressing need there are many post feel that allow to do that same question for calling on a telephone and leaving a message right right it will be the same thing except if that telephone is going to ring in the person's home then you shouldn't do that because it's going to disturb their their shabas when they hear the phone ringing then they're going to wonder what's going on is everybody okay is some maybe it's an emergency if you leave a message they're they're going to be listening right if you leave a message they may listen to it that's that's not the right that's not prop uh let's take a question here what about calling big companies when it's still sh when still shabas in their time zone you calling example calling a US company when shabas is over in Israel so again as I said many po can feel that it's fine to do that but you're going to ask them to do something for you other words you're going to call you're in Israel it's Saturday night right and you're going to call a company in the United States presumably a non-jewish company right and you're going to ask him to do something for you so that was what that's good that might be R that's that's an interesting question that's you know you're asking a non-jew to do something asking a non-jew to do something for you when it's shabus where they are it's not chabas where you are um I mean it goes that's a you know goes into you know what is the problem of asking an Andreu is it that he's not considered like he's doing it on your behalf and he's your um then maybe it's problem think about that you'll give us some thought Adam says that the shabas which is the for Premier safer on book on the laws of shabas say not to post a letter on Friday not to mail a letter on Friday if you know arrive on Shabbat but that he's talking there in Israel where the where the postal service is run by Jews right right MOS has a Chu in about doing it in New York and he says that if uh you know a large percentage of the postal workers there are Jewish then a person shouldn't do it but if that's not the case and I think that you know generally that the most most outside outside are St it's not the case then is fine most authorities are permitting that to be able to put a letter on on Friday now assuming that you don't tell them when to deliver it right you just put it and they deliver they might take care of it on Javas but you don't tell them when to do any of the work it's different than sending let's say a FedEx or UPS that would be that would be different how many difference um okay um okay so let's take some more let's take another question using digital photo frames on chabis so this is uh relatively new question that's come up it used to be people would sit sometimes on chabas and flip through their pictures or whatever of their of their trips their physical pictures now you have them on a digital frame so obviously to to sit there and to press the buttons to go from picture to one picture the other that's that's forbidden because you're creating circuits and so on but what about if you just set it up before Shas and you're going to have it there and you set it up with 100 pictures and it flips through it sits on your your on your piano on your breakfront and it flips through the pictures on its own and you're just going to to watch the pictures so that's you know that's a it's a good question I mean clearly you're not really doing anything you're just passive the you slip the whole system up before beforehand on Friday or whatever and um then it just goes by itself so there's no direct there's no direct breaking of shabas it's more of a philosophical issue to some extent whether that's really appropriate and in the spirit of shabas have this uh constantly changing uh finger in your in your house where you know every every minute there's a different picture is it is it a zil shab a degradation of shab right so you know the um you know again I I don't know if there complete consensus on contemp post when I I when I put the question to her behind who's the post for the star he felt that that it's it's acceptable it is acceptable so it could be that that question CH was changing over time could be when they first came out it was a novelty and putting it up on chabis was whoa you know you're it's almost like watching TV right but now that it's become commonplace uh it's not like watching TV and it's not it's it's it's just like a decoration that that that changes sometimes you go into certain synagogues uh and you see they have uh electronic Bolen boards that tell you the time for the the the services they tell you what the the portion of the week is and they and they they they they change and I think even they are good of of uh of boltimore has that don't they have one it doesn't change on CH it doesn't change at all it Chang M it doesn't change on chav but there are there are syn the fact that different the colors change because depending on that's true that is true if it's within 5 minutes of then that happens even on Chavez so so so you do see which which is the next uh uh minion coming up again as I said is not concerned about it I think that ultimately person is going to have to ask that RAB person lives in the community where people are not doing it then they should not do it because then it's not then it's a degradation to sh to to shabas if a person lives in the community where the RAB f with this and other people are doing it so then it doesn't it doesn't look it's not it's not the greatting is then I remember that when I first saw one of those bulletin boards in the sh with it's a fancy board with the times and everything it it struck me as you know as inappropriate but then I sort of got used to it that that uh so I think over time it can become more commonplace and less less considered z shabas uh which is a degradation of shabas so then it would be okay okay um you know how well we could I think we could keep going uh for Forever on this top on these topics maybe we do need to have another been some very good questions yeah I'm sure we can get to all these questions let's take some of the of the okay MO is asking a question about business on chabas which I don't think we have time to really that's a very to really get to it's a longer uh longer topic um um um a quick thought on the previous topic turning on the flame is important but is it just as important the physical presence of someone who can have a look see on a regular basis see everything is up to Snuff I think she's going back to the issue we talked about turning on the fire by a are two separate issues one one is that the fire has to be turned on by Jew and another thing is that there has to be appropriate uh oversight yeah when they those agencies and there are some significantly big agencies that do that use the telephone system system for Bally they also have Rabbi going in from time to time to check up it's not instead of that uh it's just that that particular company sometimes need to needs to create a Bish product and to have the rabbi come in would be expensive so this is how this is how they they do that right um okay uh Moshe is asking can you read the facts on chabas that came on chabas okay so you got a facts that came in I think the short answer is no short answer is no but there's a bunch of reasons for that I'm not person should be reading it if it came in on Friday either you know read it on chabas if it came in on Friday right well that would depend what it was let's say it was a Torah effects okay yeah but if it came on chabas doesn't if it came on chabas it would be it would be a problem um okay I I I don't know how much longer uh how much longer we should we should continue another one more question maybe and then we'll and then we'll we'll stop is it permitted um to erase uh screens that have Torah written on them so nowadays people are going what are people using computers for nowadays anyway they're going to Torah sites and they're reading their their Torah so when when when they're finished they're going they're going to turn off the computer or go to some somewhere else and that's going to erase words of Torah so I think that there are there soent two issues one is General Torah and then the other one is is if a person actually has the name of God spelled out so um which is which is which is much more stricter like an olive and then a do then a n and and then and then right exactly so you know and then and then right so the general the general you know um Toro which doesn't have any names of God it seems that um people are doing people you know that's that seems to be there is a respon from on right well he's in general he's I mean that seems to be not a concern the concern is when it's of God you know so that's a concern that's more of a concern so even then even then um R says that it's it's your person's allowed to turn off his logic is that if a person had a book which had the name of God and he held it up and you could see it in the mirror and then he walked away so we don't look we wouldn't look at it as the the name's written on the mirror that you were erasing it when you walk away it's just a reflection of what's in the book so if he looks at it that computer screen as well as just you know a reflection of whatever is going on behind the screen but um you know person should really try and avoid that because you know that's uh to certain extent that might well depend on the technology and um right well the the the way I understand the computer screens is that it's it's a constant refreshing right you even see the refresh rate that's also it's constantly being refreshed if you stop that refreshing by going somewhere else by turning off the computer so you haven't really erased anything you've just stopped it from continuing to refresh on onto your screen so that's an important point when they have the uh the uh sometimes people get their MOS or theirin or the sa Tor checked by computer uh so isn't the Sofer looking at the name of Hashem on the screen and it's not going to stay there forever right so that would indicate that those that use that that that computer system are lenient but I I I vaguely remember that some of those systems take the name of Hashem and they don't actually print them on the screen they uh they alter it somewhat so it's not the name of Hashem um no or right or if you set up the pro if you set up the system beforehand that it goes that again that the screen refreshes goes on to screen sa put screen saver that would be right rather than you directly turning one thing I want one thing I want to point out that I just learned recently is that there there was a one of the large uh printing companies wanted to put Torah make Torah available for the e-readers like the Nook or the Kindle uh and they were looking into that but they found that the e in that's used there is different than a screen the the screen if you turn off the electricity everything disappears but the e in is different in that if you take out the battery it stays it's it's almost like ink except electronic and it will stay there forever but that is a bigger problem in terms of erasing Torah because you are actually erasing something and and taking something that would be there permanently it's much more permanent so my understanding is they gave up that endeavor till they found find kosher E Ink um maybe the star can come up with some ink to be used that will not stay forever I mean you're right the short again the short answer is that when it comes to at least when it comes to regular computer screens if it's just uh regulator it doesn't seem to be a problem to to to turn it off but if but a person should really you know really avoids having the good name of the name of hasem if you can avoid having that on the screen that would be preferable much much preferable okay um how about the name written in English hashem's name written in English what like go I guess that's not exactly the same that's again there there was there was a discussion already an old discussion you know whether whether or not um you know just before before they ever invented computers just when it's written down is Raising that the same level of uh you know as raising God's name in Hebrew there's a you know there are different opinions the of there you know there's discussion about that um again it's not ideal if it can be avoided but it is a little bit better than when it hold in Hebrew so uh Jeff is asking is it really considered erasing you're just turning off pixels that generate an image well that's the reasoning again reasoning of those that are Len right again really just a reflection it's not really uh it's not really working okay I I want to thank everybody for joining us I'm sorry we didn't get to all your questions we didn't get to all of our questions either that we were were scheduled to discuss I think we definitely have to have uh uh another cyber Wednesday uh maybe before you know we don't have to wait we don't have to wait another year for that um and uh we are here every Wednesday every every the last Wednesday not every Wednesday huh we're going to start doing every Wednesday Z wants to start every Wednesday okay uh you can you'll be my guest uh we uh we're here the last Wednesday of every month at the the website is kosher classes. click webinar.com kosher and the uh the phone number is 218 1203 pass code 2020 pound and I want to thank you all very much for joining us again this class should be archived in a couple of days at the website kosher classes. org where you can find all of our uh archive classes and feel free to join over there thank you again for joining us and thank you rert Frankle for your for the for interesting discussion take care everybody have a very good day take care bye-bye e e for