11-29-2017 STAR K Certified Shabbos Lamps and Devices

hello and welcome to starcade monthly webinar hell the last Wednesday of every month at 12 noon I remember speak over again our guest today is again where every morning I Franco and Franco's head of the Institute of halakhah at Starrcade so we are here again and in a month and the sessions are recorded and archived on our website star - Kor G also on our channel on Vimeo you can see all the previous webinars that we had last month we had discussion about the stark a certified ovens and refrigerators and so as a continuation that I thought this month we would talk about other sort of devices shall this devices if you want to chat with us you can see here at the bottom of your screen there's a chat box please make use of it if you have a question or comment we'd love to hear from you and if you want to call us in the number is two one eight eight nine five one two zero three rabbi Chapman we'll put it up on the screen two one eight eight nine five one two zero three passcode twenty twenty pound so we will begin with the latest dark a device which is the shop LED device which is a Shabbos sort of a Shabbos one right right so we we have a problem which obviously we want to turn lights on the north but we can't because well with just the light and heat and all those things so all sorts in the past don't lie the candle on an Arab Shabbos wins out that was it that was it right okay now so now it is in the past number of years our number devices to the latest one I want to show you see if I can use this technology to its utmost over here on your screens just bear with me for a second here here's the new shop let me show this to you a little bit of their clip it's it's an abbreviation for Shabbos LEDs LED lamp you can see it over thin on the bottom left would you like to see that a good let me show you my clothes and it's completely dark I open brilliant this is Charlotte the new Shabbos late Shah blood was invented okay so you can see the it's that little box there what's the idea on the bottom they have these LED lights it so they have these lights on the bottom and that's this drawer which you can pull out or push back in when it's when the drawers in it covers the lights and the room stop when you pull the drawer out so then the lights around cupboards and they're surprisingly bright and they light up quite a quite a large area right so they also have the top is a drawer you can put things if you'd like you don't have to it's not necessary the draw is not moso you're not turning anything on you're not removing anything off it's on for all shops right so with a lighting with the lights lights themselves are matzah but this isn't you need to have this before as you said the drawers not Melissa the drawers is a Utah object which one can use on campus and the drawers not most persons are forget out open and close it's a twill and the person can also use it to hold things so it has an excuse and opening and closing it will also cause this light to either shine or be grounded okay so it's relatively simple from from from a cosmic perspective you who they ask is it not a bosses the drawer is not connected to the to the to the rest of it you can pull out the drawer totally so you it's a separate part really it doesn't hold the lights it doesn't just cover in them so therefore it's not a buses it's it's if you're at the lights and you puts a sheet over its and you pull the sheets off that's the safe that's really what's happening over here it's not it's just that it's just a couple right is every asking what why would an LED bulb be moocs it's not a fire that's a question we did discuss whether it is it the ricer or it only they're above it to turn on in LED light but it's certainly at least the very least there would be a cliche lock the loser at the very least so you would not be you should not move around like the box Knesset device which uses our state's locked into the wall so you know just moving it around as you said involves would involve unplugging it and plugging it in and I can't do that on Chavez so the light itself as you said is that the very least occasion laughter Lisa which should not be moved for no reason some of the drawer gonna be able to coast for no reason just to turn the light on and off something so it's so sort of it so so we're behind the midfield it's not it's it's fine and they asked us for our certification and so it's now stark a certified chaves chaves light it's it's it's a small it's a small box even like you said it doesn't give off a reasonable amount of light Ron is asking so you can't plug it on plug in but moving within range within the range of the cord could you move it like closer to you to get it to get it to get more like let's say you mean it somewhere else right so that's a very good question a clean lots ELISA can be moved if if it's necessary for you staying for using that object or if you need that the place where that object is on want to put something else there but should not be moved for no reason so there's a person has to take care and think before moving it makes it easier because the drawer it's that that can be open closed that will write the bottom hole you could move it if you needed to to get the light in a different spot right roxrite great but for no reason you wouldn't want to move it so there is a discussion about it and you can des involved whether or not it's a person either there are fire bosses to the fire the fire would be considered someone have know you that not be a plea and then would not be meant to move it at all so an incandescent bulb is debatable whether or not one can move it even even for even for use the LED light this was mentioned is better but still no one has limitations in how much one can move it okay so then I mean this is there are other lights which are similar we have the been around for many years the kosher we're on the same the same theory same concepts of lights and it has a purpose and as a cover right cover comes on and off it's not connected to the to the light so it's not a bit there's no bosses questions again one can uncomfort uncomfortable right because you're kosher like when you twist the Talmadge's right so so those we approve those we don't have any problem with it was either they're not stuck in a booth right a lot icky the same concept right so in terms of turning lights on and off a year ago two years ago there was a tunnel discussion about the kosher switch so it's just a segue into that just for a couple minutes that somebody invented something called the kosher switch where they they were claiming that that would actually allow you to turn the lights on and off not just cover the bowl but actually make the obviously turn it on and off so yeah yeah the claim was that on and off it doesn't directly your movement does not directly turn the lights on or off and there's some intermediary thing going on inside in the switch all right so what their claim was it's not even Grubman it's not even a causation that you're causing so the way if I remember correctly on the men don't care exactly but there was it was a mechanical plastic lever that you would push so when you did that it does it doesn't actually do anything but on the inside the mechanics of it there was a electric eye that was from time to time checking where that pull piece of plastic was either up or down so if it was now it didn't do anything if you had turned it up then sometime later there would be a check to see if it's all right and if and if it was up then the computer would then have to make a decision random decision should I turn the light on or should I not turn it on it was like it was like pole like you like you're flipping and flipping a coin so half the time it would say don't do anything and half the time it would say trying to turn it on so it was possible that you could flip that switch and nothing would ever happened because theoretically because just like when you flip a coin a thousand times you could theoretically get the heads every time it don't sound likely but but more likely is that eventually you're gonna get the other side and it's gonna turn on so yeah does that claim was United with you it's but it's not it's not a secret you may never turn on the light plus plus the argument is that when you get when you lift the that plastic piece up and down so that it's off doesn't do anything nothing happens it was mechanical it's just and that's just the mechanical motion and the fact that leader on this one day anything like I was on day and that's gonna be blocked right there felt there wasn't doing anything so but their claim was not accepted by most posting and Rama Hyneman said basically what you do is you go to this which you turn it on a few seconds later the light go on it happens every time maybe it's two seconds maybe you know three seconds maybe it's five seconds but basically it goes on so that's what you see you you have to follow what you see in front of your eyes what you see is you turn the switch and it goes on that's at best a grumble and therefore I wasn't permitted for use just in in a regular home there is this very basic conceptual discussion among the contemporary cool skin when one does these kinds of devices so should we when deciding where the one who used the Machado's or not should we look into exactly the mechanics of what goes on in insight and especially if there's a computer chip where it's not even noticeable but those data being Reds and not being read so do we actually pass them a lot of based on the physics of what's actually taking place or do we say that what one sees is that one turns on the switch and the light goes on so so the human eye there's a direct cause and effect you do you turn the switch and the light goes on right away so about Hyneman feels that one that that's thought that that that's the death the deciding factor that if to the human eye you do an action and need to be almost immediately as it causes the results so one cancer come on can't consider that a drama even if one knows that the mechanics of it is a grumble that case was a groan because it wasn't immediate it was if you say by fleas right I'm just saying in the in the if it would happen right away in the skin there are other I seem to say even if it would happen right away it would be a crime right behind that says no that's not a drama because because to look to the eye that's what okay you're talking about a different case if it would be if it would be happening right away but in the mechanics of it it's a grown man who doesn't consider it does kinda late there were those that held it that this coaches which was a derisive that bielski was but I let us saying that it's that's the way that it's made do turn on the light if then it's a that's you're turning on the light and and and and it can't be it can't be used and and therefore that Scotia's which was not accepted among the people shall be she's never sir this is another discussion among content people skin classically drama machines were made for people who are sick or people difficulties should we go and make things with mechanical machinery which works based on Brahma devices which work on Brahma but everyone to use all the time is that in the spirit of Chavez's that not in the spirit of shadows or maybe it's maybe it's even worse than that maybe it's not cool to grow man automatically if it's this design to work that way this is Oliver bielski held that's money what does not consider romantic that unisys do the direct thing because that's the way the machine was built right you would ask does this Charlotte have a on/off switch no it does not if not there's an automatic recover from a power outage it should because when you plug it in it works so this power coming to it it seems to work I would think that it would go back on after a power outage I imagine or the shovel Burke is reminding us about the shovel yes okay I forgot about that one thank you thank you the SHA bulb is another type of gadget where it's a it's it looks like a regular bulb you screw it into a fixture and then internally in that bulb there's a lever that you that you push that lever all it does is again cover the LED lights that are inside and then when you want to another bulb on you you turn it the other way and the bulbs are now exposed and it gives light it's the same concept and and and there isn't any problem with that either you're not anything on or off you're just covering it and uncovering the main drawback is that a person has to be able to reach the ball in order to tell me it's a you know one way or the other and again this is a ball which screws screws into the fixture so if it's screwed into your ceiling fixture you're gonna have to get on a chair and you time you want to the right got that right so there conceptually it's the same same idea same engine right if if the shabbat light had a much longer delay would that change the evaluation I think he's talking about they shot the coach's switch where we discussed before and the answer is no it wouldn't make a difference it would just be it would still at maximum be a groan and it wouldn't be only permitted for nursing home or something like that people were sick and so no but would it still be the same wouldn't be useful for a regular home the delay helps so make it a problem rather than being directed there's no time delay it's a direct action according to our Hyneman because we follow how it looks if there is a time delay to grow on us so that is better but it's stone forbidden person Keens turn a light on to wrong each other's either again if it's not if it's not a fire which is awesome which is Theresa and it's something which is also drawn on so then for a holder the situation might be might they might be going to be lenient but for a regular person month what is the other fluorescent bulbs H that we have the question before fluorescent and whether it's considered a fire or not so an incandescent bulb is so many considered to fire and because as they have the filament it has a full moons which gets rid of art right and this was or Platanos virginity past comes back in Europe give me enough dollar I'm above him the famous lead in order to show and to demonstrate that he really felt that this was a fire that get there the filament gets hot and it's like burning hearts the fluorescent bulb does not get that out and so therefore knocking suddenly means that it's not a fighter Teresa however it's not so simple because although it's true that the middle of the in the middle of the fluorescent bulb does not get that out the truth is that at the edges it does get hot so it certainly it's only possible that does get hot enough to be too because of its eraser to investigate okay so so that's the that's the shops bulb Shabbos like part of the discussion the new shop bulb the the older kosher lamp the what was the other one called the bled shall bulb shop LED : gotta keep them all to keep them straight it's a full-time job coming up with the names but okay you really wants you to repeat wise an LED bulb looks of my samosa I mean if it's an electric device right so yeah I mean an LED bulb which is plugged into the wall so generally we look at devices which are plugged into the wall as matsumoto stuff Oh again there are like such needs which can need to be plugged in in order to work again that moment which is not enough from school from is a lot to be moved if needed for using their a bad object or if you need to put something down where that object is cut out to move something just need some other school for yeah there's no absent any of those reasons that's okay no Nev it's locked in not all anything likes a party if you have an LED lights which is not plugged in that would be better so you're talking about a flashlight with an LED well how is it unplugged in well how does he get how does it work so theoretically I don't know I suppose it's just theoretically I mean okay practically speaking huh you know okay so I won't move on here to this this issue over here the next which is the another certification that we have which is let me bring this up on your screen just give me a minute please this is drama chip there amma chip technologies you can see the star k over here shot this elevator lift systems now you'll see okay there we go now you should see it okay these are Shabbos lip systems for the home for elderly people you can see over here the stair lift for straight stairs and here on the ride to stair lift for for curved stairs and then he also has he also has the what he calls the Kate lifts the kate looked is nebulizer but you sounded nebulizer and for people that need need that so frankly you were involved in this certification a great deal I know so how does this work what is the point of this in-house it how does it go it works as was mentioned before hands we take generally are not lenient to inform on devices on Shabbos for healthy people and these both these devices the stair lift and the nipple eyes are designed for people who have health problems or problems walking up stairs and they're not made for children who are just lazy wanna like swing up and down the me people devotee and those people are allowed to do this again so it works with it is the name bromwich it indicates it works with a crumb right yeah I think the name is it yeah my grandma is Adelaide and this is it Dylan so how does it delay work on this on this on the gadget so when you sit down in the chair and you wouldn't press the button nothing happens for a few seconds after a few seconds it'll start working and or it'll you know bring you up and down the stairs and it has a stop button when you press the stop button it won't stop it'll keep on going for another few seconds and then it'll stop the starting and the stop in case with a coma now there was a there is a security concerned over here that somebody might have some emergency they might be crashing into something so it does have an emergency stop button which is not a grandma but that's only meant to be used to during it for emergencies generally the expectation is that people who use the so when you take your hand off of the button doesn't stop right away right it doesn't when you press it it doesn't start right away right so there's a few second delay we like a hand off the button it doesn't stop it doesn't slow down either and again about me continues at the same speed it was going nothing noticeable changes for a few seconds do you remember that then he has this net the nebulizer system for people that need nebulizer is the cable so how does that work with a grimmer what's the point of the grub on that so again the people using their devices it's not sometimes it's not practical to have them on the whole Shabbos they're not designed for that it's a peanut well it's a break take a break it will break I said I like me so and switching them on and off again is an electrical device so that would be problematic so here the he takes what he does he takes an ink advisor I'm gonna real language is connected to a computer and when you move the switch on when you move the relay so the computer chip does you know will get that information and that nothing happens for some time that the way actually works is that the nebulizer goes on momentarily every once in a while and then it stops if you if you loop the switch then it won't stop I was this gonna start either way but it doesn't it doesn't last if you move that switch so then when it starts you know would be the it will just keep on going okay so again that's obviously person as a whole they needed to they must have it right okay so that's very good also points out that as I mentioned were behind mum's opinion is that's Kurama is you know categorized based on what it looks like to the human eye not all of us can agree this these devices are engineered in such a ways that the other posts kin who have other concerns it's also the bristles post some of this and spinning loose concerns as well so there are there are other there are other technical technical technical parts this device but Johnson for our purposes this is sufficient to make it acceptable for use on on exams okay here is some pictures we have her behind them in here in the background checking out some of his devices so this is Cece the scooter the scooter also he does right so he makes scooters specifically for individuals it's not just not mass-produced not a spittoon you know it's it's doesn't have this talking but it's the same technology he does it the same way you can see showing your hanging in the gadget how that works it's the same thing it's he this is the controls he's in contact with us all the time every time when he makes through this he contacts me here's the inventor and he follows his guidelines and everything he does okay very good let's take some of the questions are they over here rabbi Parker says I wish to correct you most of math was good for us or even if for its place or itself only flesh mouthful is permitted for itself or its place that's correct okay why shouldn't LD but Bob called cliche mouthful yes sir well because if there's no fire in it and then there isn't any buses for a fire so then it's just a cliche mouthful isn't right why why would be called the most of us was goofily he's arguing that that led should be like most Americans goof up there are people that are automatic that you know that's not an impossible opinion to hold there may be a mr. all that way and generally look at it that says something has to produce heat to be considered when a filament is considered necessary so because of the heat it produces the metal gets heated up so the metals blowing causing metal to glow is and this is a ricer led dozens happens and army is asking how is this different than this switch I'm not sure what what that was referring to if you could go back to your question yes I mean the short answer is that the switch is made for non sick people oh how is it different than nicosia switch how is how is the Grumman ship different than the coaches without dancers they're both dramas and right now that's right so the good coaches which was supposed to be for everybody and that was objectionable right right right right but this is made for people who are sick who can't get up and down the stairs nebulizer they have really something that you really need but you're trying to avoid doing Milan Java suing EPS says you're having the information using a CPAP for sleep apnea on Chavez questions so you're having article about there which is on the stock it websites website you see that okay could they could they could the switch be used on a CPAP machine and then just to turn it on at the beginning so you wouldn't have a llama in Kurds theoretically but many of the numerous CPAP machines designs that they only activates when you breathe into them so switching on switch and switch won't do anything uh-huh okay so what necessarily help depends on how you CPAP machine is designed I see okay okay yes how does it using the grumman nebulizer compare the logically to using a nebulizer on a Chavez clock Oh meaning Lauren's set up a nebulizer on a Shabbos clock but how does it work if you put on a shop how do you know when you need the nebulizer don't you need it expert in it but I think you need it when you need it you know it's not necessarily that you need it from ten to ten fifteen you need it when you feel like you need if the shops close for you then if you need it when you're sleeping and you know when you go to sleep yes the Shabbos Clark would be preferred Chavez club would be preferable girl you're not doing anything right exactly yes here you're doing you're doing a grunt wait okay right Scott says if the elevator never lines I set up to act with the delay doesn't detonate Kate I think Rama had to know the grandma the delay is the grandma right that is what causes what allows us to consider the grandma corner behind me is the delay so that is how it works okay we've cos says send it to go on every four hours okay if you're like we said before if you're in severe if you nebulizer if you're needed every four hours put it on a Shabbos clock and you said if you need it when you need it and you'll need that's the idea of the crumbs which just doesn't get a shot stuck adjust multiple settings that you can you know set it to go on and off six times right you mean it says some of the devices are allowed on Chavez for : but not those who are healthy is this because those who are ill following a more lenient position are they allowed to perform a lot on Chavez are the health so they're allowed to grandma on Chavez is looking for a person who is ill so they are allowed to do that right they don't have to they don't have to they can use that sped if that's as they need to they don't have to feel that it's a you know second great solution if they're there you know there is always a thought that when we think about these devices will it come to be used by people who don't have a problem so stairlift it's unlikely the right a person who doesn't need it is gonna want to use it the nebulizer is certainly not there's also one point I think is worth mentioning is that there's a discussion disagreements about electrical devices in general whether electricity is forbidden from the Torah or just forbidden because initials that closing you know activating the electric device in vast closing a circuit is considered my building is a lot of Indian you know it's all similar to run and therefore even Brahma would be brahmana Nyssa Theresa which generally we don't commit and that's not even for a sick person Osama know about that most of us can understand that if there is no heat or cooking or lights or you know that's not that is involved just to make a device you know you know activates that then so it also meal senator Obama and chroma on that is permitted for sick person so those people who be Spiritualized the fascination as there's these devices will not be but again most most person you know we generally accept the decision is like you who they ask why isn't the old person near the gremlin and he'll person needs a grandma because if it was if it's a real psycho knows real danger then he just goes in and and just does it in Milazzo but we're talking about the person who's trying to minimize he's not bad ill he says some difficulty getting up the steps he you can't just you know going to go elevator press the button because he can't get up the steps that's not permitted he would have to stay downstairs all Chavez okay I'm going to do it person was sick Philippe not not but not in danger he's considered a follicle for ideal and the question is can need to be mrs. Obama there are the Kyoto walk ensue from it that prohibition borders intimately the mission for us since he's not see we can ask cannot you to do its buts for we should process that a follicle but was not allowed to use it Ramona so that's why it's necessary these devices right so I mean if you have to go get a go every time it would be very convenient so that's that's the advantage of these these devices okay so we will have to stop right here I want to thank everybody for joining thank you very cool thank you with China and this Rosenstein for helping us we had and we have a heated discussion should wait something they shed light on the issue right and and we hope that you will join us next time if you have any questions or comments or concerns you can call us for one zero four eight four four one one zero but you can email us at info at start - Kor G you can look for the replay if you're interested on our website star - georg and we look forward to seeing you next time thank you very much for joining us take care have a good day